Dickie
I am simple saying that others reading these posts who dont post might feel we are a bunch of radical nuts if we do not make our points in a civil manner.
If Yabby wishes to be rude then he will be judged by that also.
I suspect his real motives may be far more simple than you think.

To have endless personal insults logged on the internet directed towards farmers may play right into the live exports hands.
Dont you think that is possible.?

Please dont combine my name to pale in a post at the top Dickie.

I know it was to address both however if Robert sees it or one or two of the others I will be baned and so will pale from using OLO

That is what hapend before. I felt awful because they had just joined as members.

I note you are working with AA the same as Penny and Nicky
Please tell Lyn I think shes wonderful.

I am happy working with those I do and I think its time for a different approach. RSPCA QLD and PALE in conjuction have approached live exports in a different manner.

Thanks for the offer but there is a phone number and email address on the pale web site if you wish to contact me.

Just email that and I will leave my new email address for you.

I am a member of pale but I am not posting as pale. I me Taryn Winter just a person like yourself and Yabby.

Also I have a busy life and post from home when time allows.

To be honest I wish you were not working with them because from what I have read of your posts they are good.
AA are the most hated next to PETA of all farmer groups.
Surley that is not good for animals.
No I prefer pales efforts working with farmers and not against them.

Ah, more abuse and ad hominem attacks and no substance from dickie, this is
all so predictable :) BTW, MLA are audited by Ernst and Young, if you bother
to read the annual report, which contains the financials.

Penny, producing food is in fact a very reputable occupation. If there were none
in the shops tomorrow, you would realise just how much its valued by the public.
Most of the nation eats meat, even if you don’t. Not only that, but without farming
and mining, you would be living in a banana republic, so you have us to thank
for your cushy lifestyle in Australia.

Taryn, whilst I farm, I don’t depend on it for a living. But many do and I know
how hard they work. Frankly I’ve never come across a topic with as much
misinformation, conspiracy theories and slick marketing campaigns to justify
the views of a bunch of people with agendas, as this one.

I have no problem with anybody building meatworks, in fact I’ve encouraged that
all along. But I also know the value of the live export trade to the WA farming
industry and the difference it makes in reducing animal suffering, in say times
of drought etc. Nobody has yet offered a credible, alternate solution.

What happens on boats, trucks etc, is really up to qualified vets and livestock experts
to judge. A bunch of well meaning housewives might mean well, that does not
mean that their views are correct. That’s why we have experts in these fields.
Time after time, unqualified people try to understand livestock like sheep,
through their own eyes, rather then how the sheep might think and act.
You simply can’t do that without some experience about the species.

Atrocities, mistakes etc, happen in every industry.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s2131379.htm

What we have to separate in the live trade is fact from fiction. What happened
occasionally, what occurs regularly. etc. That needs qualified people, not people
who think that eating meat is evil.

Taryn
Welcome back.
[Pressi awaits you [small]

Dickie your still here. I am more than happy to work with you Dickie especially after your call. Animals need all the help we can get and it is only by attacking cruelty to animals in all ways and every way possible will we finally succeed.

Just because we have our own views doesnt mean we are right or that its the only way.

Actually the two distinct differences has enhanced our projects and served us well.

So Taryn although originally being outraged by pale being black listed it has actually served as a favour.

It must be said to that peta and Animals Australia have done some wonderful work over many years in all sorts of areas .

Things have certainly improved since Lyn White joined the team However we must remember a team is a team and I am told Glenyse is a walking book of information which no office may exsist as well as theirs does without.

RSPCA QLD have also a different attitude which is refreshing Dickie.
We walk together on World Day for Animals and if my memory serves me correct I think we carried their banners.

All working for the same end. A fair Go for Farm Animals.
Yabby
People have raised food for many years.
They are called farmers and I have a long line of them in my own family alone.
Our beef isnt with farmers- No not at all.
It isnt their fault if a evil Government conspired with the cruel live export agents such as Elders to mention one or AWB or Kerry Packer to dream up the most unthinkable act of sending Animals alive to third world countries.
They used lies to support their evil acts like saying there was no electricity while laughing their heads off because some of the Government actually beleived them that were not directly involved.
And they still use lies.

Shame on the Live Animal Agents and praise to the good farmers that refuse to send their stock alive!

Hello again TarynW. What is the car park? Who is Robert? Why was Pale banned? For what/by whom?

I'm rather nonplussed by your references to AA (Animals Australia?) and PETA though. Are we to despise them becaue (you say) the farmers do? Can you tell me please then if you think, for example, Chinese fur and bear bile farming, wild animals in circuses. rodeos, sow stalls, intensive (battery hen) farming, unnecessary and frivolous vivisection are all okay if the farmers say so?

Animals Australia is part of the NCCAW (as weak and pathetic as it is) advises in a number of areas of grave concern. I find their position papers excellent and suggest that farmers who despise them have something to hide. I would describe AA is "moderate".

Yabby, here are two references you might be interested in.
_________________________
Some aspects of farming practice seem strangely indifferent to the pain and distress caused to sheep. In the case of the tail-docking and castration of lambs, which are carried out without anaesthetic, it is known in advance that pain will be caused. The pain can be partly assessed by chemical measurements as well as by studying the lambs’ behaviour in detail. The level of cortisol (a stress hormone) in the lamb’s blood increases by 60% after tail-docking and 97% after castration. In Australia, Merino sheep are subjected to ‘mulesing’ (when the wool and skin around the sheep’s rear are cut off to reduce fly attack) without anaesthetic or pain relief. The levels of cortisol in the sheep’s blood are still high 24 hours later"

__________________________
"If an animal is not unconscious when its throat is cut, 'there is a period of consciousness which may last from thirty seconds to several minutes during which the animal must be in great pain and distress'. This would apply, for example, to slaughter according to religious traditions that require the animals not to be stunned before throat-cutting. FAWC stated: "Council considers that slaughter without pre-stunning is unacceptable..."

Fraser A F and Broom D M. Farm Animal Behaviour
and Welfare. 3rd edition. CABI Publishing (1997),
Ch2&3

Ah Penny, finally we might have some productive discussion for a change.

I actually put in an application to the State Govt, that various products
such as pinkeye ointments, Trisolfen and similar products which assist
animal welfare, should be available to professional farmers easily,
say at Landmark and Elders stores, similar to the way we purchase bullets.

Sadly the whole thing is bogged down between State and Federal laws.
I know a number of farmers quite happy to use Trisolfen, but it has been
a major drama to get hold of it, even for vets.

Tailing lambs in regards to pain, depends on your method. As to removal
of testicles, yup I agree, that causes some pain. Have pharmecutical
companies developed a product, easily available to farmers, for us to
use? Not so far. BTW, that is a global issue, not an Aussie issue.

In regards to cutting throats, I actually rang a vet about that just yesterday
for these reasons: We have hobby farmers all over Australia, many don’t
own guns. It is legal for them to cut sheeps throats to put them down.

But my question is this and it goes into neuroscience:

Sometimes when people stand up quickly, immediately they feel faint.
That is due to blood pressure lowering. If they faint, again that is low
blood pressure. When you faint, your brain still functions, but you
are unaware of anything.

Given the rapid speed of feeling faint when you stand up, when the
main artery to the brain is cut at the throat, just below the brain and
blood pressure is nil virtually immediately, how long does it take
to become unaware? The question is not if your brain is functioning,
if your heart is pumping, if legs are moving due to reflexes etc, but
the state of awareness to feel pain. Hopefully somebody in the
neuro scientific community can answer and I will be informed
and can let you know

Yabby, thanks so much for that, it was good information. And you're right - why are these things NOT available to you guys? I can't imagine how difficult it must be to castrate (or mules) an animal. I read your reference again on kosher slaughter as well. But neither of us is a medical/veterinary expert. I think these people honestly believe that their method is more humane. Who knows, except someone with knowledge of central nervous systems? Sometimes though, when people stand up suddenly and feel faint it could be low blood sugar too.

The problem is mainly, as I see it, with people who don't know what they're doing, people who lack the expertise, but there are people with electrical and captive bolt stunners like that too, I'm sure. Some reports of animals not being properly stunned and regaining consciousness after they have been "strung up" are simply horrific. From what I've been told it is particularly awful for/with pigs (perhaps PF can shed some light on that for us). The hobby farmers you refer to perhaps should only be allowed to use firearms and then only when they have demonstrated that they know what to do.

But the slaughter scenes we have all seen from the Middle East are still awful beyond nightmares, and I don't think anyone can deny that it happens, and that it is widespread. The issue is whether that culture will ever change, with all the good intentions in the world. Many reports have appeared in recent times about governments there discouraging individual slaughter and wanting slaughtering done in municipal slaughterhouses - which seem worse if anything. And at the end of the day - if you look at the "Five Freedoms", there is nothing more remote from that, and their "natural behaviours" than taking grazing animals, putting them on ships to places where there is nothing for them to graze on and where they are terrified, and handled and slaughtered so terribly. I take your point about temperatures, but there do seem to be indications that the animals suffer more there than here.