Prior to the election, then Opposition Agriculture spokesman Senator Kerry O'Brien stated on the ABC's "Landline" program that the ALP would be looking to ban the live export trade if public concern about animal welfare could not be addressed, adding that he received more correspondence on this issue than any other. Predictably enough, he was immediately attacked by the farmers' lobby groups, especially in WA, where it was claimed that it would be a "catastrophe". O'Brien substantially diluted his position before the election, excluding the cattle trade to South East Asia from his policy statement.

Many voters did not trust O'Brien, and voted Green, and the ALP was successful in many seats on the back of the Greens' preferences. The Greens have stated animal welfare policies which include a ban on the export of live animals.

Senator O'Brien was dumped immediately after the election in favour of Tony Burke, who has stated his "strong support" for the live export trade. Have we elected a government that stands by animal cruelty, because there is no "industry" more cruel than this one.

Kevin Rudd needs to stop hiding in the post-election euphoria, and provide a proper policy statement on this issue.
Penny

Hi Penny01
Good to see someone else getting involved! Kevin Tudd can now say that Senator O'Brien was expressing his own opinions only on "Landline", and the government is not committed to any of Senator O'Brien's promises. The fact that he was shafted so quickly suggests that this is what is happening, because Rudd was full of support for farmers prior to the election. Also, between the "Landline" program and the election, O'Brien weakened his position quite considerably, no doubt in the face of a concerted backlash from the farming lobby. In WA, it was claimed that a ban on live exports would be "catastrophic".

Where the ALP has a potential weakness on this, of course, is through the AMIEU (Australasian Meat Industry Employees Union), and the fact that its latest Hassall Report claims that the live export industy supports "13,000 jobs". If you read the report (I got it from the MLA website), you will see that it includes such irrelevant jobs as doctors, dentists, hospitality workers and similar nonsense, and other jobs that would exist without the export of animals - vets, transporters, government, Port Authority, banking, and insurance industry staff. Take away those sectors and you aren't left with much at all, yet the AMIEU claims that 40,000 meat workers jobs have been lost as a direct result of live exports. That is compounded by a domino effect in rural and regional communities where meat processing was the only, or the major employer.

I understand that the chiefs of the AMIEU in WA (Graeme Haynes) and Tasmania (Grant Courtney) have done quite a lot of work on this. Maybe we should ask Rudd about his commitment to THOSE "working families".

All the best
Nicky

"Have we elected a government that stands by animal cruelty, because there is no "industry" more cruel than this one."

Yes we have Penny. However, both governments, Liberal and Labor are despicable. Both are endorsing the abominably cruel treatment of Australia's livestock.

Candidates for parliament generally make promises in line with party policy and Rudd's ethics-free failure to grant O'Brien the portfolio, requires investigation.

I have have had discussions with my Federal Liberal member over live exports and subsequently written to him where I included graphic photographs of the handling, slaughter and mayhem our animals must endure. I did not receive a response and this hypocrite continues to occupy a seat in the House of Reps.

The member publicly promised on the ABC that if he had evidence of animal cruelty, his party would ban live exports.

This is what we are up against and I was sufficiently naive to believe O'Brien's promise would be implemented.

I make no apology for my emotive language when I say we are up against liars and sadists who would love to reprimand us with:

"It's the economy stupid!"

I sincerely trust you will continue your endeavours on OLO. We thank you for that and we intend to raise this issue throughout 2008 to ensure that the public are better informed of the heinous cruelty perpetrated on Australia's live exports.

Two replies seem to indicate that I'm not the only person who has given this some thought. The Liberals never made any secret of their support for this brutality, through that deplorable mouthpiece McGauran, and the communications I have sent to Rudd, Gillard, and Burke (several of them) have drawn not a single response.

They seem to forget that they would have won some votes on what Kerry O'Brien said, and also on the basis of Greens' preferences, because the Greens have clearly articulated animal welfare policies including a ban on live exports. So how do we get these people to respond? The newly elected members all around where I am were sent all of AA's material (reports and photos and DVDs), and none of them responded either.

The way I can see it becoming an issue of national significance is all the allusions to "working families". The AMIEU reckons that 40,000 jobs have been lost in that industry as a result of live exports, so what about those "working families", especially in areas where meat processing was the only employer or the biggest one. Interestingly, they have made no commitments to families where there is no-one working.

Maybe Animals Australia has a way of proceeding from here. They are appealing for donations to help fund another Middle East investigation, so I'll happily contribute to that. Lyn White is amazing, I couldn'd do that; I found watching the video almost impossible, especially when that poor South American bull was beaten and stabbed to death, and the camel. The point is, how much evidence do they need before they stop believing Livecorp's propaganda?

But we really need to get to the bottom of why O'Brien was dumped. He also did some good stuff in Senate Estimates hearings on live exports so maybe that was his downfall.

Penny

I'm a little reluctant to post potential strategies on OLO for halting live exports.

However, in future months, I intend to send a carbon copy to the media for publication, for every piece of correspondence I send to MP's.

The relative silence of workers in WA is possibly a result of the resource boom - nearly everyone has a job. However, all booms come to an end, so does a worker's employment. That is when communities will wonder where all the abattoirs went.

Live animal exporters claim that additional abattoirs could not find workers however, that too is a myth since Australia operates a Visa 457 to permit temporary workers to enter the Australian workforce to fill the vacancies.

I confess though I am not up to date with that part of the meat industry and you may be able to enlighten me further.

Slaughtering is a violent act. There is no way to air-brush the stark realities, however, if slaughtering in Australia can halt the despicable live animal exports, then our animals' suffering will be less intense.

Penny01
Its good to see another decent humane being just as outraged by the barbaic Treatment of our own Australian Animals.
Did the ALP Lie- Funny As. Is the pope a catholic? Do pollies lie full stop.?
Despite everything the Australian Government has NO intention of banning live exports.
That much ought to be as clear as mud to all by now.

Yup we can give them a hard time. We can use ALL our energy encouraging the public to write letters sign petitions and contact radio talk shows[ Which are monitered to protect the industry BTW]

Animal Groups can ask for donations[ Including RSPCA who have a MOU with State Governments department of DPI ]to take care of the live export and trucking transport and other complaints.

Dont get me wrong RSPCA do a great deal of good for dometic Animals and lets face it- How can 84 people control the whole of Australia.
There are only 84 RSPCA Inspectors Australia Wide- Its impossible given millions of intensive farm animals and live export animals alike are involved.

Thats leaving off any conflict of interest and addressing the fact their CEOs are employed by way of contract through RSPCA Nation whom do receive federal Government funding.

Of course we can donate to AA- Animals Australia and the many other hard working groups out there. Yes and we should I guess but is is really the answer?
Lyn White is great. You will get no argument there.
Yet is it really wise to advertsise you are intending to do a investigation?

Now dont bite my head off please thats not an anti AA comment but an attempt to see how we may improve things.

We have had enquires which BTW cost the public Millions over the last twenty years.We have had the 60 minutes- The RSPCA fund raisers the AA fund raisers the petitions the letters- and yet the cruel live trade has doubled and then some.

There is bit only one way to stop it.

Continued

But one Way.

By fair minded decent people to agree to meet and greet Muslim delegates from overseas who are interested in meeting farmers at grass levels- to discuss supply of stock and local areas to open or reopen or contract Halal Slaughter.

Because the Government targetted the abattoir industry by making them the `only `industry not allowed to use GATS or employ workers from overseas, I suggest we slaughter here Halal and send whole carcass overseas.

We are not going to get any help from farmers federation MLA Austrade or even AMIEU who have been instructed to back off live exports.[ No prizes for guessing whom by]

Mr Rudd do not think you will stop us from reopening abattoirs and advertising to the world to buy cruelty free range products =opposed to the Australian ALP Government “official animal welfare policy of intensive misery and sick stock after long sea journeys. Haram]

May the best product and advertsing campaign win Mr Rudd.

We were thinking about a before and after choice pictures on our products.
You know=
This is Australia`s intensive industry products which are pumped with drugs with your picture edorsing the cruelty= Or this is our Free Range Or Slaughtered here Halal products.
Which do you think the Muslims will buy Mr Rudd. Muslim leaders of Australia have said this.
http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

So Penny. You want to stop live exports? Intensive farming? Then ask the Animal groups to help address the answer by getting stuck into the solution with us instead of the problem.
Of course they wont.

We have the contacts with Muslim leaders both here and Saudi ME Malaysia but we can’t do it all by ourselves.
We need people like Tassi and WA and all over who know their own areas to assist.
We will supply Savvy experienced meat and stock advisors.

We need to act quickly before Rudd does more deals with China and we all know how they treat animals!

Oh and we dont want donations - thats not going to help one animals but we do need your time- Nothing more.

IIRC, O'Brien agreed that the first thing we need to do is increase
our animal welfare efforts in the ME. Farmers seem to be the only
ones actively involved in this. No animal libber lobby in sight
anywhere on that score.

Penny, sigh, all this stuff has been discussed to death on OLO.
Rather then send more camera crews to the ME, AA could send a camera
crew around Australia, where sheep are hog tied and have their
throats cut every day. Its not illegal in Australia and is common
practise. But I concede, some city folk are rather squeamish,
as they confuse livestock with their pets.

If the economic value of these sheep is as high as is claimed, why
don't local operators buy them at market value and slaughter them
here? Farmers are constantly told that farming is a business,
so they need to make business decisions. So we do.

Livecorp is an offshoot of MLA, which is an organisation backed
and funded by tens of thousands of farmers.

If all these people lost their jobs in the meat industry, why don't
they accept the ones being offered by meatworks, who are screaming
for labour?

Farmers are not silly. They remember the bad old days, when there
was a hiccup in the live trade and they had to dig holes in the
ground and bury their livestock.

Animal libber groups have offered no contructive, alternative solutions so far

Penny

Warning, warning....iceberg ahead!

A dehumanised, live sheep exporter has invaded your thread!

Official figures from DAFF for sheep mortalities on the death ships, for the financial year ending June 07:

Thirty seven thousand four hundred and twenty eight dead and diseased sheep dumped overboard!

Which doesn't include cattle, deer, camels and goats also transported on the ships of misery!

Some party that eh?

To the last poster - Yabby(?) As far as I know it is illegal in Australia to hog-tie any animal, and and to cut its throat while it is conscious. Animal protection laws tend to mirror each other state-by-state.

Why should anything be different for a sheep than a companion animal? They all feel hunger, thirst, pain and fear. Australia has a shockingly poor record for animal cruelty and it is to be found mostly in the farming sector. Cruelty is cruelty, be it a sheep, a cow, a pig, a chicken, a dog or a cat. It's just that companion animals are more equal than "food" animals because farmers make the last dollar out of them.

If what Dickie says is true it seems unlikely that the claim of labour shortages is a valid one. I know that in areas of NSW and Victoria there were countless meat workers out of work as abattoirs shut down, and so did other businesses which survived in those regional areas. If this trade (although the figure is fraudulent, someone has said) supports 13,000 jobs and the meat workers have lost 40,000 while those jobs are moving off-shore to slaughterhouses in other countries, you wonder who is losing the plot in this. The bottom line seems to me to be that the farmers want the biggest "bang for their buck", which comes as no surprise.

So it becomes a moral argument. I agree with Dickie, the slaughter of animals - particularly on the scale the human species does it - is absolutely abhorrent, but if it must be done it must be done as close as possible to where the animal was reared. It doesn't seem too much to expect that it should have had a reasonable life in which it could be what it was meant to be either (express its natural behaviours, and have its physical, social, behavioural and spatial needs met).

Ah Dickie, who dislikes David Attenborough, as he shows the
truth about nature. Best to just pretend its all dreams eh?

There was an interesting documentary on tv, explaining the
power of maternal beta endorphins. They are similar to
morphine. Those motherly types seemingly just can't help
themselves!

Roughly 4 million sheep die in Autralian paddocks each year,
Dickie fusses over a few thousand, out of millions.

Given that Dickie has no experience at all with livestock,
no wonder she does not understand these issues. Ignore the
qualified vets, the industry experts etc, let motherly love
rule! So sweet :)

No wonder that rational politicians ignore you lot. All emotion
and no reason is downright dangerous and certainly irrational

There you are Yabbs

Happy New Year

Dickie yes they are awful figures indeed and dont forget as you say they are only the ones we know of.

Penny Yabbs is a average[sort of] bloke who only exports small numbers however takes an interest in the live trade. Well he sells to an agent]

The fact is its blokes like this we need on board with new ideas.

Only when you can offer the Savvy hard core if you like- or even as Dickie said cruel live exporter farmer a better deal or at least a real alternative will you start to turn things around.

The meat industry isnt full of sentimenal chaps nor is the farming Industry so lets be honest about it.

Most of the people that post about the barbaric cruelty[ and rightfully so] on OLO do not have the knowledge required to put up alternatives to a cruel trade that enjoys complete support from the Government.

The truth is we cant do anything without the farmers. AA and PETA do upset them. They would be far better off assisting to re open plants and lobbying the Government for the GATS to be used here in Australia like every other Industryto solve the labour problem.

Yabbs Said
Livecorp is an offshoot of MLA, which is an organisation backed
and funded by tens of thousands of farmers.
pale replies.
Yabby I know you think that but they have mislead tens of thousands of farmers.
Now I would like to debate this a great deal more with you over the next few weeks.Debate not fight ok. I will listen to you but please listen to what AFIC and ourselves have experienced on a much larger scale than you operate.
I think you might be surprised to be honest.
Its now 11.30 and I am up early funeral. It seems every time I am talking to you I have something to do with funerals to attend.

I hope that not a sign or something. You guys having been taking donations have you Yabs.
smile

"The bottom line seems to me to be that the farmers want the biggest "bang for their buck", which comes as no surprise."

So Penny, how much do they pay you an hour? Lets say 40k
a year, for 2000 hours, or 20$ an hour. What do you do for that?
At present, farmers selling locally in WA will have to provide
around 20 kg worth of meat for your 1 hour, or 1$ a kg. Sounds
fair to you? Are you worth 20 kg of meat an hour? The same
sheep on a floating feedlot, gaining weight, supervised by a
qualified vet, is worth around 2$ a kg of meat. Is it unreasonable
of farmers to expect 2$ for a kg of meat? If all this economic
value that you mention is there, why can't growers be paid 2$ for
a kg of meat?

If hogtying sheep and cutting their throats were illegal in Australia,
nearly the whole farming population would be in jail. Think again
and check your facts. Motherly love is great, but you do need to
be informed in today's world.

Senator O'Brien continued: "If it comes to the point where the Australian public do not accept that animal welfare concerns are properly being met, governments of any persuasion will be faced with a difficult decision and will probably be almost forced to shut it down."

Yes, I suppose the "probably be almost forced" could be construed by some as a promise. Such decisiveness. No wonder he was unceremoniously dumped.

The role of govt is to make sure laws are obeyed, and to make more stringent laws if need be. "Public concern" is easily manipulated and any decisions should be based on factual evidence, not emotion.

This link says 2500 jobs "lost" because of 6.6 million sheep live exported(2003) as the current figure is 4.2 million I'll for arguments sake assume the 2500 jobs will cover cattle exports too. This is lower than the 3000 jobs directly attributed the live export trade. If this is correct the argument on job losses as a result of the live export industry holds no weight.

http://www.liveexportshame.com/meat_union_release.htm

Perhaps they have an updated one for Nicky's claim of 40 000.

dickie, those 37000 odd sheep weren't going to live much longer anyway. Included in that figure are the shy feeders who won't eat, and aren't allowed to suffer starvation through on board euthanasia.

This equates to about 1% losses, compared with terrestrial feedlot losses up to 5%. http://www2.dpi.qld.gov.au/health/3548.html

I don't think feedlots have to kill shy feeders either, they are on-sold.

If being rational (or autonomous, or able to speak) is what permits us to deny direct moral status to animals, then we can likewise deny that status to any human that is not rational (or autonomous, able to speak, etc.)

This line of reasoning works for almost every property that has been thought to warrant our denying direct moral status to animals. Since the human marginal cases are beings whose abilities are equal to, if not less than the abilities of animals, any reason to keep animals out of the class of beings with direct moral status will keep the marginal cases out as well.

Penny

The ethics of that argument will be way over the head of those who profit from the misery of other species. There isn't any way to justify the cruelty this industry engages in and as the decaying carcass of Australia's morality rots, all laws enacted to protect animals from the dregs in our society are being violated.

I refuse, as a matter of conscience, to debate the profit margins with traders who prosper from the misery and despair of animals who cannot defend themselves from those who have descended into this realm of unconscionable depravity.

Dickie
I am sorry but you are wrong.

Look we were doing so well on the Kevin Rudd thread now we are back to this.

Do you really think the people involved in the live trade who act as middle men give a rats arse what you I or six thousand others say world wide.
I have news for you and its all bad.

Its been thrashed to death Dickie and the only ones who gained from that were so called Animal Welfare groups!

I have told you before dear kind lady its the Yabby`s we need to win over.

No good going on and crying and being an emotional mess and lashing out at those we hate who are involved.

Yabby is just teling it like it is.
Believe it or not hes doing us a great favour.

There just as much victims over a long period of time by a morally bankrupt Government as we are.

.

Now I can assure you its a case of sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me with the live agents!

Either we do it Yabbys way- For want of a better term- Or not all all.
So we impress Yabby and the other Yabbs involved in the Induistry by offering a better deal.

There is your answer and when you wish to get serious about working on the answers instead of the problem you know our number.

Yabby any idea what trade deals are worth on a large scale?
Your getting peanuts compaired with the middle man.
However I totally agree we musthave an alternative to match if not better the figures for farmers.
That is only reasonable and it is hard cold business we need to discuss.
Anybody who really cares about these animals will assist to kiil them here- If not your waisting your time- my time and everybody elses.
We can not say we wont discuss prices Yabby and expect to be taken seriously.

"I have news for you and its all bad." (Pale)

Pale. Please remember this:

(1) I do not run with the hares and hunt with hounds. In essence I do not have a leg in both camps

(2) Unlike yourself, Yabby and the other stakeholders peddling in the live exports, I have no pecuniary interest in this issue

(3) This "dear kind lady" does not shed tears nor is she an "emotional mess." You have seriously underestimated her and have made the same fatal mistake as "your" Yabby

(4) "its the Yabby`s we need to win over." Foolish girl Pale. This trader in misery will use you though agreed, you both have the same ulterior motive. However, "selfish success breeds a lonely success!"

(5) Your constant criticism of other animal welfare agencies affords you no favours

(6) And since your agency has been established since 2000, I can only assume that you have been an abject failure. As for me, I am merely an ill-informed new kid on the block, stumbling through a maze of official and private graft

And that Pale, is right up my alley! I will look forward to the challenge!

Therefore Pale, I bid you "adieu." Thank you for your often informative posts which have been most helpful and good luck.

Dickie

Please post a retraction of false claims that pale are involved with live exports.
I am not in a position to look the other way on that comment as it is upsetting to our members as well we work in conjunction with RSPCA QLD.

You remark is quite sue-able unwarranted and reckless

(2) Unlike yourself, Yabby (and the other stakeholders peddling in live exports,) I have no pecuniary interest in this issue

There you go Pale. I have placed brackets in the above sentence, though that statement was poorly worded. The pecuniary interest you hold, I believe, is in the establishment of your Halal abattoirs.

Hilarious. Any minute now Nurse Ratchett will be along with some medication.

It is in Labors Manifesto or Platform to ban the exportation of live animals such as sheep and cattle to be slaughterd elsewhere. We have to make sure that the right wing Labor leadership abides to party policy.

Well there we have it folks! Dickie preaching her little
line in the sand of morality or religion, with much the
same intolerance as Osama or the Catholic Church.

Ignorance is bliss for all three!

Dickie, just remember to switch off those David Attenborough
documentaries, reality goes away when you push the off switch
on your tv :)

Please, could those who want to sue people do it elsewhere? This was not the objective here. Like Dickie, I'm not prepared to debate profit margins - some things are simply indefensible. PALE, I'm not sure where you're coming from now - what Halal abattoirs? Where?

For the benefit of those quoting figures - 2.5 million animals are kniown to have died on live export SHIPS. Causes of death are starvation, salmonellosis, pneumonia and trauma. Euthanasia at sea? Yabby, you need to get a grip. Euthanasia at sea is a) being thrown over the side for the sharks, possibly alive b) thrown down a macerator, possibly alive and c) throat cut by some third world crew member with varying degrees of brutality. A floating feedlot supervised by a qualified vet? ONE vet, for 100,000 animals, as some of the larger ships take? BTW, if you lose that many sheep in paddocks you mustn't be very good at what you do.

Personally, I think that there is a large section of the farming community who probably should be in gaol; those whom you describe, in particular, and a special place in hell is reserved for the live export agents who, Yabby, rip you off blind, along with the importers in these countries who, it seems, are on-selling the animals to other countries (those who are still alive, that is - news reports at www.liveexportshame.com will tell you that). You are in fact getting peanuts of what you claim to be riches beyond your dreams.

The Federal government has subsidised this appalling cruelty in taxpayers' dollars in the tens of millions, according to the AMIEU - and the figure is 40,000 lost jobs and at least 150 meat processing plants closed down. Not to mention down stream processing - the Arabs all get that now.

Now that we understand who is ripping off whom, we are ... back to the moral argument. And Yabby, please do not include me in any meat producing activities in which you may be involved. I get paid far more than $20 an hour or $40K, too.

Hi all
Things have livened up since I was last here. We have the charismatic Yabby (look it up, mate) back, and welcome to Bronco Lane. If it were only that simple, Bronco Lane. Dickie, pay no attention to Yabby. To Yabby, and to a lesser degree to PALE, other animal welfare/advocacy groups do not get involved in "improving welfare standards in importing countries" because they quite rightly feel that this is a brutal trade in animal suffering and misery and they want it stopped. Nor is it up to them to come up with alternatives. Other businesses have to survive in their environments within certain ethical parameters and government policy, why not farmers? What will they all do when government policy DOES change? Blow their brains out, or find something to do that they need not be so ashamed of.

Dickie, your argument is along Peter Singer's lines of speciesism, and what Penny said is absolutely right. Yabby, do you hog tie your dog? Do you cut its throat while it conscious to kill it? Why is it then okay to do it to a sheep? The fact is, you people are not in prison because you haven't been caught because the RSPCA is good at cats and dogs and hopeless at farm animals. Cruelty is cruelty and it does not discriminate between species.

Penny, you are also correct in the figures you have quoted here.

Penny,I think what PALE (correct me if I'm wrong) is arguing for is that the animals be slaughtered in Australia through some sort of partnership deal with Muslims - I think that was the involvement to which Dickie alluded. To what extent there is a pecuniary interest I don't know, and I don't know how PALE is funded or what its relationship is with its slaughterhouse operations if indeed those operations exist yet. That would be the problem animal advocates have with it, I suspect.

Cheers for now
Nicky

*I get paid
far more than $20 an hour or $40K, too.*

Well Penny, please show us that you have the intelligence to deserve more, so far I
can’t see it reflected in your posts.

*Euthanasia at sea is a) being thrown over the side for the sharks, possibly alive b) thrown down a macerator, possibly alive*

So Penny, were you on the Becrux or Deneb, to witness all this, or do you just believe what you
read on any website? Did they ask for your donations by the way? Do you understand the orders
under which these guys operate these days?

*Personally, I think that there is a large section of the farming community who probably should be in gaol*

Well there we have it, another ignorant city slicker, who doesn’t know the first thing about farming,
who wants to comment about what they don’t understand. Such is the internet today. Ignorance is
bliss via the internet!

*You are in fact getting peanuts of what you claim to be riches beyond your dreams.*

Ahem, who claimed that? Sounds like its part of your dreams, nobody else.

*at least 150 meat processing plants closed down.*

Yup, lots of plants closed down, especially in NSW. Fact is that the Australian sheep flock
has halved, due to lack of profitability. You go to work, you want to get paid. Why should
farmers be any different?

Penny, it would really be great if you informed yourself a bit, before commenting. So far that’s
simply not been the case.

Yabby, when you are a University Professor or better you will be in a position to assess my academic and intellectual capacities (you would need to be at my level or better in the Australian Qualifications Framework, and I suspect that would not be the case with a farmer, particularly one so easily led up the garden path as you are). I notice you didn't answer the question about hog-tying your dog and cutting its throat either; that is odd. You should also be a little more cautious whel labelling others "ill-informed". You have no way of knowing what we know.

The Deneb Prima (now the Stella Deneb) and the Becrux are two of the very small minority of livestock carriers that are less than 20 years old or more. The former has failed inspections in Australian ports, and the latter had the maiden voyage from hell (read the report at www.liveexportshame.com). I suspect that they even be marginally better run than most. That's why they are the only ones journos and the like are allowed to see. And they only do short-haul stuff within Australia (e.g Professor Clive Phillips) unless they are a journo with vested interests. By the way - AMSA (Marine Orders 43) is not the regulatory framework applied to livestock carriers any more, that responsibility was handed to AQIS (on the basis that AQIS knows nothing about ships and AMSA knows nothing about animals. More startling insights from the "clever country", which sends its profits to countries whose stated objective is to blow the western world into oblivion.

If what you say is reality, then you people are no better than the Arab butchers, are you? Others of us know that reality is there, and we despise it and want no part in it. Don't condemn us for beng dreamers because we are not as brutal and egregiously cruel as you are. We would seek to raise standards, not descend to your level.
This trade is a continuing shame on the collective Australian conscience.

penny, the fact is deaths on board compare favorably with losses on land. Currently around 1%, which includes those culled while at sea, to stave of starvation. Lots of "possibly alives" there. As to throats cut, what do you think is going to happen at the other end?

If the live exporters are ripping farmers off, but still paying more per sheep, then what are the Australian processors doing? Ripping extra?

I'll be happy to read any link showing 40000 job losses, and will apologise for my folly. At $40K each that would be $1.6 billion, ever so slightly in excess of tens of millions in apparent subsidy. Approx 10% of animals turned off go to live export, so there must be an awful lot of people employed for the other 90%, about 360 000 if these job "losses" are to be believed.

However if each only chopped up a sheep every second day(40000x120/year=4.8 million) it would explain why farmers are being ripped off

Penny
Welcome 'Perfect'

The title of this thread- Did ALP Lie= pre elections= mislead the public?
I am `personally` preparied to disclose this much 'only'

I received a call from Kerry OBriens advisor pre elections.


This was pre the ABC LandLine Comment. I can say "in all honesty" it did change the course of our intentions , movements pre elections including a prior invitation to meet with kevin Rudd which I did not follow up on.

Do I feel I was lied to or mislead? I will answer that later.
ALP play it very differently to the libs.

below prior promises -

http://wa.amieu.asn.au/pages.php?recid=23

Labor will establish an Industry Task Force comprising of government, employee and employer representatives to develop strategies to address:
The need for long-term sustainable employment in the industry;
The need to develop an industry wide marketing plan aimed at increasing the export of processed meat;
The viability of establishing a quota system;
The need to develop a package of other measures of assistance to promote the long-term viability of our meat processing industry; and
Other measures that will promote and encourage improved competitive position of the process meat industry vis a vie live meat exports.
pale said
[ mind You They gave the job to Mr Chance]

Today I listended to ALP Assistant treasuer. I was impressed with what I heard.
Time will tell.

Thank You Nicky- Yes that is the progect.To Slaughter here and knock out the middle man live export agents, by the Muslims dealing 'direct' with farmers having shares in local plants with Saudi`s funding it.

Much better deal for farmers.Slaughter here - send carcuss for JAKIM accreditation for distribuation to ME.

We have established five AQIS accreditations to resume so far and two other plants but need helpers.

No funds to pale. Donation to others
Assisted two others[small] so far= Japan China.
However problem now with pre stunn laws and broken MOUS from `some`

Muslim Leaders " however not all".

Yabby the 150 that closed was similar to a Woolworths take over.

It was designed to stay within Trade practises and ACCC laws.

Rojo said
penny, the fact is deaths on board compare favorably with losses on land.
pale
please prove it with figures please. Be mighty interestng where you get them from. Please give us a break on so called Government figures we all know they are heavily distored.

If the live exporters are ripping farmers off, but still paying more per sheep, then what are the Australian processors doing? Ripping extra?
pale
farmers are still getting between 29 and thirty two bucks more and they have little choice as we have bugger all plants to send them now due to a evil long term plan by certain companies to turn animals into trade deals.
same as the producers- the big stores are ripping everyone same as petrol like woolworths.

Of course the plants have closed because of lack of stock pluss high labour costs.
After all that was the plan

I'll be happy to read any link showing 40000 job losses, and will apologise for my folly.
pale replies

Ok its late now however your not so silly that ou do not know shearing tanneries , hides small goods boneing pluss plumbers cleaners packaging transport to mention a few jobs lost easily tripples that then some.

However if each only chopped up a sheep every second day(40000x120/year=4.8 million) it would explain why farmers are being ripped off
Because they could do much better.- Even better than the ME plant owners.
Also there is no future for their kids grandkids and shame in being in this industry now at all


Posted by rojo, Thursday, 3 January 2008 12:28:08 AM

Just to clarify the hog tying matter.

It is not illegal and their are an array of devices available to do it.
http://www.fmb.com.au/index1.html - Just a few available.

A reality check for those with no experience in sheep farming; there are times when they are necessary. If I am riding through a paddock and find a sheep that is ill, injured or fly struck, I would not hesitate to hog tie it to be able to carry it back on my bike for treatment. I will use whatever is handy, the collar off one of my working dogs works a treat.

Cutting throats of sheep (without first stunning) for home kills or to put them down is not illegal either.

Penny01: "I think that there is a large section of the farming community who probably should be in gaol"

Now there's an intelligent opinion from someone who claims to be a senior academic. No wonder anti-live exports activists are largely seen as radical airheads by primary producers.

Have you ever actually been on a farm?

Ooh Penny, its just as easy to judge your intelligence by your posts. Academic
qualifications tell us that you passed certain exams in limited fields. Some of
the brightest people on the planet are in fact drops outs, like Bill Gates and many
others.

I don’t pay too much attention to animal libber websites, with their melodramatic
language. We know what happened when the mulesing debate was on. Peta never
let the facts get in the way of a good story. A lot of these sites have a somewhat
“religious” fervour about them, promoting their ideology. I happen to disagree
with their philosophy. We are part of nature and one species has been eating the
other since forever and that will continue to happen. Even you will eventually
land up as part of the old food chain, that’s just how it is.

Now some will preach the evils of leather shoes, fishing, horse racing, etc.
You are free to believe every word, if that is your choice. As I happen to work
with animals every day, unlike them, I think that a lot of their claims are
frankly bollocks.

As to my dogs, they have a bean bag each, a spot on the couch, and doggie
door to come and go and would not know what a chain was if they fell
over it. But if I had to hogtie them, as it was in their best interests and
had to be done, then yes I would.

As PF has pointed out, farmers hogtie sheep for good reasons, perhaps
you are just not aware of them, as you seem to have no knowledge in
this field. Being herd animals, when carted anywhere alone, unless
they are pets, they freak out and tend to smash their heads into
things, doing themselves serious injury. Hogtying is indeed the kindest
option, but of course you seem to think farmers should be in jail.

As to slitting throats, the Jews have done a lot of work on this, claiming
it’s the kindest option. Just one reference.

http://www.shechitauk.org/downloads/A_Guide_to%20Shechita_July_2004.pdf

So its not black and white.

Now to your further points. So what if the Becrux had a bad trip? Do you think
that 747s never have bad trips? We learn from these experiences and improve
things. Siba ships have two spanking shiny new boats coming, but we’ve been
through all these discussions before on OLO. If it’s a ship, no matter how good it
really is, it must be evil. Bollocks to that. Its these black and white judgement
calls that I object to, when life is full of shades of grey.

Now to economics. It should occur even to you, that if growers obtain 50-60$
for shippers, compared to 20$ from meatworks, all that extra spending in their
regional areas, is of huge benefit. Fodder can be purchased, silos installed to
cope with droughts, etc. etc. That extra spending itself generates a lot more
jobs. We are constantly reminded that farms are businesses and should be run
in a business like manner. Fair enough, so that’s what farmers do.

*which sends its
profits to countries whose stated objective is to blow the western world into oblivion.*

Which profits do we send to which country that wants to blow us up?

What’s really happening is that the Arabs are simply buying those bits of the
West that they really want, with their huge petrodollar profits, which will only
rise as the price of oil rises. It’s not their fault that the West became addicted
to their oil. Perhaps the West is really not so smart after all.

Penny I have no problem if you want to preach your morals and philosophical beliefs.
I have a real problem if you want to make them compulsory.

I admit that I know very little about the export of live animals. But listening to the horror stories - I can't understand why the animals have to be mistreated. It sounds to me like greed is the driving force. Why can't our government set standards to which exporters have to comply?

Perhaps PALE together with other animal welfare organisations, could get together and talk to farmers, then present conditions that could be acceptable to all, that the government could support in the animal export trade?

This is only a question from someone, as I said who knows little about this subject.

The Rudd government may be prepared to listen, if offered solutions covering a wide spectrum of issues that included everyone in the business. Everyone should be concerned about cruelty to animals,
especially if it can be avoided - with people willing to give a little on all sides.

Yabby,

Flying , ships terrifies for poor Bs &$& ah. Want to hear about live exports by planes?

Crikey, No Aussie ships Yabbs Umm,our chilled will be.

Don’t start on Kosher, - you may have Dews +Muslims` actually agreeing on something.

Wouldn’t it be ironic if = Muslims used Dews for their pre stunning argument. Signed by which ever the dishonorable grub sings off on that one.

Anyway, getting myself in trouble[again]=

The farmers on this thread are correct. Read back you will see PF said-While riding my bike out checking my stock- bla bla.

A farmer “checking “ and “providing care for stock”.
Ok let’s say we were out in the middle of nowhere =say on our way for holidays from the Cold coast. We come across a sick sheep. Lost, no water etc

What would you suggest we do? = Drive off and leave it?
Let’s make it easy and say we are traveling in a Ute. I know-` Great` we can put him in the back and take him for treatment or to a vet. ~Good Idea. ~

Tell me how we are going to get him to just stand there - all quite like, so he doesn’t hurt himself, jumping off at 80K?

We joined OLO in an attempt to get like minded people who care about Animals listening to farmer’s point of view as well as some ill informed web sites

If you continue to only take information from one source you will be laughed at by Government not to mention farmers with their wonderful dry sense of humor.


Instead think=How can I open abattoirs to save these poor creatures from long cruel trips prior to slaughter?

How can I offer the Farmer a better deal in the market?

How Can I take over the Industry?

“Listen to the farmer` problems re the prices they receive- live Verses local.

Free Range Verses-Intensive, Give them a new `viable` alternative.

Work on that- with farmers not against them

Old Proverb

Small I may be- But am I much

Terrible may I be- But am I good .

"Why can't our government set standards to which exporters have to comply?"

Foxy, There are minimum Australian Live Export Standards. However, as shabby as they are, this industry continues to breach this Act, seemingly without fear of prosecution.

Diseased animals continue to be loaded onto ships, causing rampant infectious outbreaks and mortalities. How do these animals pass inspection prior to loading?

Animals have languished on ships in dock for a week causing mortalities - a breach of the Act since ships must leave port within 72 hours of loading.

Many other breaches are common - prosecutions are few!

Do not believe this industry when they claim there are only a few protestors.

The majority of Australians object to this disgraceful industry.

Your suggestions have merit, however, despite the reams of evidence, farmers, exporters and governments continue to deny that animal cruelty exists.

This is merely another obstacle to overcome.

Remember we are dealing with an industry and a government who wilfully perjure themselves on a regular basis.

We shall remain alert, Foxy - it's simply a matter of time.

Poor Yabby, you just don't get it, do you? You can load these animals onto the Queen Mary, and it would not improve the atrocities they face in importing countries. Dickie's observations are correct; Ive seen ill,injured animals being taken to wharves. Furthermore you should read the mortality reports that Animals Australia got. Those reports are prepared by AQIS.

Start with the "Maysora" - cattle were loaded on that voyage in direct violation of the Australian Standards for the Export of Livestock. Southern bred cattle (south of the 26 parallel south) are not to be loaded between May and October. Those were southern cattle loaded in Portland, and they died appalling deaths, of septicaemia from having to lie in their own excrement with open wounds from the slippery decks, and pneumonia.

Go on to the Tasmanian one, the "Al Messilah" - countless sheep were ill when they were delivered to the feedlot. Up to 50% of those sheep were only in the feedlot for a matter of hours.

ALL the reports suggest that the animals were not given the "mandated" period in feedlots, too. Do we hear of a prosecution? Sanctions? Well, they have to carry more antibiotics, and observe mandated periods in feedlots.

The ALES are as worthless as the MOUs the Howard government signed with these savages in the Middle East. All they provide for is the animals being unloaded, apart from that even more worthless one with Egypt.

PF, I take your point, but I am still fascinated by what is cruel to a dog, but is not cruel to a sheep (or a cow, goat, pig, or chicken).

Who said that if death rates in paddocks are that high, you can't be so good at what you do? Perhaps it just doesn't matter. As a matter of interest, what do they die of? Starvation? Dehydration? Flystrike?

The AMIEU will confirm details of the job losses - they reckon that for every meat worker's job lost, four indirect jobs are lost (downstream processing, and businesses which relied on meatworks in regional areas)

Dear Dickie,

What can a person like myself, do to help?

Foxy.

These will give you a fair idea of the background.

http://www.hrnicholls.com.au/nicholls/nichvol6/vol67the.htm

http://qld.amieu.asn.au/pages.php?recid=232&hl=tory

http://wa.amieu.asn.au/pages.php?recid=52

http://wa.amieu.asn.au/

We have overwhelming established the indefensible trade is too cruel for words.
That said I would like to move on to work on the solution not argue the problem Foxy.
I don’t see the point of going on like a broken record- We need to actually do something to change it now.

You said
Perhaps PALE together with other animal welfare organizations, could get together and talk to farmers, then present conditions that could be acceptable to all that the government could support in the animal export trade?

Pale Replies.
Yes that would be wonderful. We have requested that until we are blue in the face. However sadly the others have instead black listed us.Umm we are apparently called the Animal killers.

Later we can explore ideas as to why they possible may have taken that position.


As you read above they claim we are just after a quick buck from the meat trade by setting up Halal Abattoirs.

. Let me assure you the meat trade would be the last to give anybody a fast buck it’s the most difficult unforgiving.
To make matters worse we are going to be as short of farmers as we have been rain as the youth leave the bush.
What is required is a Dick Smith Harvey Norman type to lobby a very wise P M to a total review of regional and country areas.

We need tecks or training programs provided to teach crop farming and free range farming to migrants and aboriginal people, regional folk and tree change people.

Also we need proper Animal Welfare laws. Another arm of Inspectors.

organize more inspectors.

I am angry about the way the Government have dismissed this brave x police officer who disclosed barbaric treatment in live exports.

The other thing we need here on OLO if we are serious is for people to stick on the thread as we work out strategies and for that matter one ID

One suggestion is that we could start lobbying our State AMIEU representatives. The unions will be thinking the government OWES them for helping them get elected. Also, campaign Greens MPs, House of Representatives AND Senate. Dickie, you're in a pretty good spot in WA - Rachel Siewert is very anti live exports (WA in fact HAS appointed a new government Inspectorate for animal welfare - six General Inspectors, I heard, a lack of confidence in the RSPCA there).

Also, we have tended to rely a little on the Heilbron/Larkins Report and the report by the WA Meat Processing Industry Taskforce (Lindner) report. Those are getting a little bit old. A new report assessing the value/otherwise of the trade by a credible economist would be good. The Hassall Reports are easily discredited.

The trouble with "celebrities" is that they can get a bit temperamental. Science and economics seem to be the only way through this since the morals aspect has no impact.

Foxy, welcome back, I am so glad you didn't leave us.

The 40000 figure has been bandied around, I'd just like to see where it came from. Someone discredited the Hassal report for factoring in "related" jobs, but served this figure up as a given.

Pale, I've previously posted my sources, re: losses. Not my problem if you can't accept figures from a non-liveexport related field. Not everything has to be a conspiracy.

The premium price is only on the exported animals, which constitute only a fraction of total animals available. I'm happy for as many new Aust. abattoirs to open as possible, but buying price does not appear to be the stumbling block. Nor the less opportunity for processed meats from Australia to the ME(although I've read these have increased). Other factors must be. OH&S and insurance costs in what is a dangerous occupation, are most talked about.
I can't for the life of me understand how you can say these farmers are being ripped off by big export middlemen, when the alternative is to receive less. Really it's a no-brainer.


You have spoken about 457 visa workers in the past, doesn't this imply no-one local is looking for such work, and where do you think money paid to such tempoary residents will go? Not much into local communities, their aim will be to send as much as possible back home.

Out of interest several towns in my region once upon a time had an abattoir, now there are only derelict buildings. We are nowhere near anyone who live-exports, and have no such market. Ending live-exports won't reopen them.

Penny makes an interesting point - that no matter how good the conditions are on board the ships it won't make any difference to she and others who have the same mindset. Because of the "atrocities" at the other end. Yet the thought process is to ban exports, but not to actually improve conditions for ALL animals slaughtered over there. It's OK if they're not Australian? Very narrow-minded, should you feel the need to ask me.

Oh Penny, I get it very clearly indeed! The sheep could go on the Queen Mary,
exporters could comply with every little detail of the standards, you and others
would still have an agenda to shut down the trade. Is it not your ideology that
we should not be eating livestock, that we should treat them as pets etc?

Half the problem is in fact because you don’t know much about livestock, their
diseases and their behaviour. I am sure that some companies do the wrong thing
at times and so do some humans. Name me a field of human endeavour where that
is not the case?

One of the reasons I sold some sheep to the live trade this year, was to find out what
standards they would apply to me, a grower. It pays to speak from experience.
I can assure you that the fellow who checked my livestock, what could and could
not be sent, was extremely pedantic! But if you or Dickie knew much about diseases
like pinkeye, an animal can be carrying the disease but show no visual symptoms.

Now I’m not claiming that all companies are as professional as the one that I
dealt with, but even if they were, your agenda would still be to shut down the
trade. These companies are also fully aware and quite paranoid that every little
thing they do is being watched and could be filmed by people with a clear agenda,
no matter how great a job that they do.

Did AA go and film the great work that Peter Dundon and his wife are doing
on behalf of farmers, to improve welfare standards in the ME? Or do they
just focus on tragedy, as that suits their agenda? Sharon is an animal
welfare specialist by the way, so would know far more about this topic
then most academics or other armchair critics.

Atrocities happen everywhere. I could sneak around with my video camera
and peer into peoples homes, filming spouses being bashed, if my
agenda was to ban marriage. The gory details on TV-would–tear-at-heartstrings.

Rojo Next post Ok

Penny

read the above. AMIEU need no lobbying by us.

There is little need to lobby greens.

http://wa.greens.org.au/items/Media_Release.2007-11-08.3547

Penny said
(WA in fact HAS appointed a new government Inspectorate for animal welfare - six General Inspectors, I heard, a lack of confidence in the RSPCA there).

Pale replies
Umm DPI. As I have have explained before RSPCA have a MOU with State Governments DPI.
To me that is to keep others away. People like you and I – not a bonus for Animal Welfare- Sorry.

Penny Said
, I heard, a lack of confidence in the RSPCA there).
Pale replies

Yes- They are rather upset RSPCA broke ranks and publicly insisted the live trade be banned.

Penny said

Tended to rely a little on the Heilbron/Larkins Report and the report by the WA Meat Processing Industry Taskforce (Lindner) report.

Pale replies=Yes I agree however it’s a lot of money only to be ignored-=Like others.

There are probably only a half a dozen blokes left who really understand the meat Industry enough to do it justice. Then you must get them to agree.

Most are tired up with live exports and wont touch it because of conflict of interest [ Or getting fired!]

Perhaps this might interest you=
http://www.livexports.com/davidwoodsreport.html

You are looking at spending reasonable big bucks. However if you can= excellent.

penny said
H "celebrities" is that they can get a bit temperamental.

Penny If you want to impress the Government it must be somebody with that type of back ground. If you include a business plan and feasibility study including chilled or carcass we would be prepared to help towards costs.

After saying that ALP has clearly made promises to the live trade so it’s a hard if not impossible sell.

We are still far better agreeing to speak with farmers and escorting our Saudis to meet them on their farms at grass roots

We will get no help from FF,MLA, Austrade.

we need people to put their hand up to speak with farmers in their state and greet a plane.
Costs nothing.

Rojo said

The 40000 figure has been bandied around, I'd just like to see where it came from. Someone discredited the Hassal report for factoring in "related" jobs, but served this figure up as a given.

Pale replies

Rojo= smile
Yabb` little Shadow- I bet your buddies would like to know. You have more moves than a Swiss watch but that’s ok. Makes it more interesting for me personally.Ok I will save you fishing for that answer any longer and put you all out of your misery.

I am proud to say that someone may be seen below- Just scroll down and see if you think you can spot the culprit ok. If not let me know and I might even post the speech-+ If your good boys= funny as.

http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Rojo said
Previously posted my sources, re: losses. Not my problem if you can't accept figures from a non-live export related field.

Pale replies
Oh come now did you? Well I am terribly sorry I missed that one. Be a darling and re post it for me please.
In will return same with the scoundrel who discredited the Hassal report. Now there’s a good trade deal. I just love doing business with you guys.

Rojo says
Not everything has to be a conspiracy.
Pale replies
That’s what I keep telling your lot= funny.

I will reply to you next paragraph in my nest post.

Rojo said

Several towns in my region once upon a time had an abattoir, now there are only derelict buildings.
Pale replies

Really= always interested of course = Perhaps you could act as an agent and pick half K.
Mind you nothing happens before we source stock from farmers direct=as you would anticipate


Rojo said
interesting point - that no matter how good the conditions on board the ships Because of the "atrocities" at the other end

Pale replies
Yes it is = Just goes to show how smart some Arabs are. They really do leave us for dead.

Makes you wonder why we didn’t think to use Haram to market our product doesn’t it.?

Interestingly the Heilbron report states 10500 "lost" jobs, just over half of the AMIEU's claim. No wonder you are distancing yourself from it.

Rojo and Yabby, you are like two sides of the same coin. In order to understand some of the more complex economics, you need to understand Heilbron's figure of 10,500 relates to direct jobs, not (all of) thw downtream processing, and the jobs in businesses on towns where meat processing was the only, or the major employer. The fragmentation and marginalization of these rural/regional communities is well documented. And Heilbron and Larkins' report is from 2000, which compounds matters further.

Pale, in order for this strategy of yours to work, your Arab friends whom you want people to meet/introduce to farmers would, I suspect, have to be guaranteeing something in terms of price. I suspect that farmers would not even contemplate meeting them otherwise; they are happier loading the hapless animals onto ships and sending them to hell.

Nor do I even begin to subscribe to the industry propaganda that these "experts" (how many experts? In how many countries?) are making a difference that is even remotely significant. The point is that if Australia refused to supply animals on moral/welfare grounds, no other country can supply the volume, and it is about making an example of these people so that other countries will do the same.

Penny, as it happens, economics is one of my strengths. I’ve read these reports,
Most are full of holes, as the economists writing them don’t have a clue about
the complexities of the industry they are studying.

I remind you that most live sheep come from WA, not from NSW, its always been
that way. What knocked NSW around was the fact that Australia now has 85 million
less sheep then it had in the early 90s, due to lack of profitability, drought etc.
So arguing what happened in NSW, when most shippers have always come from
WA, is a waste of time.

Do you think we are going to truck them over there? Well it did happen, when
the Saudi market closed for a while. That is cruel, IMHO.

Now take the Hassel report and work out the value of a sheep FOB Fremantle,
plus its food etc, all bought here. Compare that to the selling price of a sheep
in a box, including all downstream processing. The value of that live sheep
is still well ahead. Our beloved meat exporters are so good at outdiscounting
one another in the marketplace, that buyers just sit back and smile.

Not a single sheep skin is processed in WA, everything is done in China. We
have no labour here. The AMIEU can’t supply any either, ask Rodger Fletcher,
who knows the situation here. We don’t even have the labour to kill half the
animals processed here, let alone another 3 million.

How do you know that people like the Dundons are not making a difference?
Did your little spy go and check for herself, or is that not part of your agenda?

It is Islamic law that animals should be treated kindly. Have you tried to
use that to the advantage of the animals? Religion matters in the ME.

What other countries will do the same? Sudan? China? Somalia?

The problem Penny, its seems to me, is your typically arrogant Western
big stick approach, just like George Bush. You are going to tell these
*ignorant savages* how the cookie crumbles.

tbc

Now I remind you Penny, that right now, Saudi Arabia alone earns one thousand million Dollars a DAY from oil. If you think that with that kind of money, they
can’t go out and buy what they want, with Africa next door, you are dreaming.

In fact one Saudi company, which pulled out of the shipper market as our new
regulations were too tough for them, has switched to shipping cattle from
Africa instead. There are a lot of cattle in Africa and they can be bought,
never mind the sheep, goats, camels etc.

Where I see the problem is that you guys have your fixed little views there,
which are all black and white, based on your philosophies, which are banners
on your websites. You lack people qualified in livestock, as distinct from pets.
You have marketing people, graphics people, all kinds of most likely really
nice people, but with a set, inflexible agenda. You refuse to think outside
the square or to compromise. I don’t think that’s very intelligent.

People in the ME have been living with and eating livestock for a very long
time. If you think that they are just going to rush to listen to your big stick
approach, you know sweet nothing about Arab culture, as the Americans
are now learning fast.

Lots in fact could be done in the ME, to help all animals, not just Australian
animals. But you won’t even compromise or think about these things,
its all just black and white arrogance. That’s what really annoys me.

Your contempt for farmers is obvious and what would really happen on
the ground and the repercussions of that, if the live trade were to shut
tomorrow, you don’t seem to even consider.

Win-win solutions are the way to resolve and solve things, not your
big stick approach. All sides and all people need to be considered.
Its time you thought about that a little, if you claim to be educated.

Penny said

Pale, in order for this strategy of yours to work, your Arab friends I suspect, have to be guaranteeing price.
Pale
Correct.
Penny
I suspect that farmers would not contemplate meeting them
Pale
In most cases we will never know. The System is designed to protect the industry of the Live trade from paddock to plate throughout the Farmers Federation MLA , Austrade AQIS Media Government Chamber of Commerce=
Everybody protects the live trade. You can’t promote co joint farms or share farms. You can’t get the same support to market your program. Not when Mark Vaile according to MLA personally organized ships loads of sheep from the Australian Government to the Kuwaiti Government can you promote co joint ventures.
Did you ever read his port folio? To promote the exports and encourage 'value adding' of goods from Australia and -introduce new ideas for the Australian public to overseas destinations etc
To answer your question-
Farmers are a different breed to city folks and have a language of their own.
The older ones old school book of laws which they do not like to break.
quick example.
Some time ago we drove a mob of cattle to feed because of doubt.
Not far down the road was another farmer [dairy] doing it tough but not as tough as his stock.
He had them hidden but not because he was ashamed they were starving just his pride that hurt.
We offered him to get them down with the others but- no way
They were good breeding stock- His life’s work with irreplaceable blood lines.
He had already called the Abattoir when we offered him three times the amount. No he gave his word and that was the end of the matter.

Farmers are manipulated.

didn’t see this coming. However the big World V Feed lot companies and others did.

Tell you what is nice however. When farmers meet Muslims on their own farm.
You see the pride gain in his stride as he knows he is really appreciated

problems disappear as you watch the beginning of new friendships.

Penny Nicky Dicky Foxy everybody.

Here is the Petition you requested we set up

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/petition-to-stop-live-animal-exports.html

Penny, as it happens, economics is one of my strengths.
Pale
Really- Yours or this Country?

Yabby sheep are trucked from all states to make up the quoto for the live trade= so so cruel.

yabby said

Our beloved meat exporters are so good at outdiscounting
one another in the marketplace, that buyers just sit back and smile.

Pale relies
shame= How could you be so shameful!

Yaby said

Not one sheep skin is processed in WA, everything is done in China. We
have no labour here.



. The AMIEU can’t supply any either, ask Rodger Fletcher,
who knows the situation here.

pale replies

The AMIUE have been toldto back off. If you dont know that you know litle

Yes good idea= lets ask Rodger what he thinks of live exports. A successful abattoir operator who provides many jobs= shall we?
http://www.abc.net.au/rural/nsw/stories/s1449302.htm

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:wf9oY4gO2L8J:nswfarmwriters.org/newsletters/Newsletter_February_2005.pdf+fletcher+meats+dubbo&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=au

Yabby said

. We don’t even have the labour to kill half the
animals processed here, let alone another 3 million.
Pale replies
Oh there there diddims poor baby- Don’t cry.Big mumma will save you.
3 million ah. Reckon we might just be able to offer young migrants and Sea Change Familes training and jobs.
We need new young farmers- or we wont have a food bowel. The really big bonus will be we wont have to train many the Koran to work in Halal Plants.

Yabby said
It is Islamic law that animals should be treated kindly. Have you tried to
use that to the advantage of the animals? Religion matters in the ME.
Pale replies

Thanks for the tip.

Yabby, what makes you think that I refer only to NSW? And you need to learn to spell Hassall (and Associates) if you want to critique the report. Have I thought about what would happen if the live trade shut down? Certainly. I can't wait.

Your "experts" in the Middle East include MLA Veterinarian Nigel Brown, who is on record in the Gulf Daily News saying that he doesn't see too much wrong with the way animals are handled. Let's be realistic. I asked you "how many experts", and you have quoted two. I just gave you one more. Not a lot, is it? And those people are there for one reason, and it has nothing to do with the "welfare" of animals, it is so that they can earn the big bucks with MLA, and have their photos taken looking like they're doing some good.

I reiterate, no other country can supply the numbers that Australia does. If Australia withdraws that supply on moral/welfare grounds, changes must occur. It will be an international diplomatic incident. PETA did attack the "haram" (religious) angle last year with various governments over there, and the result was - Animals Australia proved again that nothing - irrespective of religion, culture, decency, and any number of self-described "experts" had changed. These countries are all signatories to OIE (International Organization for Animal Health) welfare standards, and that means nothing either. International livestock expert Temple Grandin wrote a report on her findings with regard to animal handling and slaughter in the Middle East, and very damning it is, too.

The reason that claims are made about labour shortages is that people employed in that/those sectors had no option but to leave them, when the live exporters caused the shutdown of their workplaces - their industry, in fact. Simple labour market economics.

PALE argued earlier that government assistance/subsidies should be applied equally to the meat processing sector as they are to the live export trade (including the payroll tax, WCI, and like employment expenses, AQIS inspection fees). That seems pretty fair to me.

"Where I see the problem is that you guys have your fixed little views there, which are all black and white, based on your philosophies, which are banners on your websites. You lack people qualified in livestock, as distinct from pets. (Yabby)

"It is Islamic law that animals should be treated kindly. Have you tried to use that to the advantage of the animals? Religion matters in the ME." (Yabby)

"Fixed little views" eh? Well enjoy the video Yabby, you depraved little man!

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=save_the_sheep&Player=wm&speed=_med

Go, Penny and Dickie! Yabby, and your alter-ego Rojo are losing ground badly here. The mistakes you make are that you have absolutely no regard for cruelty, you believe that by patronising those who do, you are demonstrating superior intellect (you're not), and that we differentiate between species as you do.

Penny is absolutely right, cruelty is cruelty, irrespective of the species. She also has you beaten on the ethics vs economics arguments too. There is an article at www.liveexportshame.com by a WA journo, Paul Murray (from 2004, I think) in which he explains exactly why the sky will not fall in on WA of the live export trade were to end.

It is true to say that there would be no labour shortage in meat processing if the live export trade had not shut down slaughterhouses, forcing so many people (no doubt with encouragement from Centrelink) to seek other employment. At the time Murray wrote his article, the feds were subsidizing the live export trade by waiving AQIS inspection fees to the value of $400,000 annually, while CHARGING each meat processor, in WA alone, that amount annually. And because the ships are all foreign owned and crewed, there are no employment on-costs, as Penny has pointed out. Expecting a degree of parity does seem reasonable.

I hope you have watched the vision recommended by Dickie - but then, it probably won't bother you too much, because they're "only" sheep, cattle, goats, camels... and you can make a buck out of it, so the brutality really doesn't matter.

Are we livestock experts? Who knows? But we do know gross animal abuse when we see it, and you don't have to be too expert for that.
Nicky

So Penny, given that 80% of so of sheep exports come from WA, which regional
areas collapsed here? Why are all the meatworks screaming for workers and
can’t find any? Where are these people?

Penny, I purposefully leave the odd spelling mistake, because it shows up the
nature of my debating partners. Those who are pedantic about every word,
are usually also those who are unable to see the big picture, as they are too
bogged down with details. I’ve learnt a bit more about you , it all helps.

I know all about Nigel Brown, I don’t need to hear it from you. Stop fussing
over the trivial, start seeing the big picture. Or shall I remind you for the
rest of your life, that you said that Australian farmers should be in jail.

Yet I have shown you that hogtying sheep has good reasons, that cutting
sheeps throats is not black and white as you claim. You have been unable
to respond

How on earth do you expect Peta to do anything useful in the ME, if they
have the same arrogant attitude as you and George Bush have? Have you
never heard of people skills or a bit of smart psychology?

No other country needs to supply what Australia does, but the combination
of the continent of Africa, along with China, certainly can. I remind you
that China has more sheep then Australia. You are risking the livelihoods
of tens of thousands of farmers, based on your little dreams. But then
you clearly don’t care about those farmers.

The processing sector is in fact treated equally, it’s a long complex
argument that Pale does not understand. Whilst their heart is certainly
in the right place, as Pericles pointed out, at least they are consistent
in their irrationality, so I don’t bother to explain it.

Your response as to what would happen if the live trade was shut down,
shows me that you really don’t have the foggiest about this industry.
For the fact that animal suffering would massively increase, has clearly
never crossed your mind

Dear me, we have struck a nerve. I have never been likened to George W before. Should it bother me if you remind me that I said that farmers who are cruel to animals should be in gaol? Cutting a sheep's throat without first stunning it is cruelty. It is that simple, and made more so by the fact that that is not how you destroy your dogs (or is it?)

The way Nicky has set out the argument above from (Note) a WA journo doesn't seem particuarly "equal"; is is protectionist policy, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't require any great depth of understanding. Let me make it more so from the Heilbron Report (in two parts):

• The live export trade could be costing Australia around $1.5 billion in lost GDP, around $270 million in household income and around 10,500 lost jobs.

• The primary factor driving the profitability of the live export trade is market distortions in favour of live animals. If it were not for these factors, the rising demand for meat in importing countries would have been met by exports of chilled and frozen meat.

• These distortions occur in both export markets (tariff and non tariff barriers) and the domestic market (incentives biased towards live trade rather than processing.)

• Live animal export is not a complimentary trade to the chilled meat trade but instead directly competes for the same export market. Government bias towards the live trade has ensured that the meat export trade is not competing on a level playing field.

• The report notes that when the live export trade to Saudi Arabia was first suspended (from 1991 2000) there was a 3 fold increase in exports of chilled and frozen mutton and lamb to that market clear evidence of the substitutability of meat exports for live exports.

• The report cautions that live export "profits" are illusory in terms of economic benefits to the nation, as they are simply the consequence of market distortions, subsidies and interventions by governments abroad and in Australia.

Heilbron Summary part 2

The traditional demand for live animals that in the past was fuelled by a lack of refrigeration, has been overtaken by the westernization of food consumption patterns and modernisation of food handling and distribution systems in many Middle East countries there y negating this industry claim that live animals are 'necessary'.

• The report concludes that New Zealand's strategic decision to severely curtail its live sheep trade to prevent animal welfare concerns affecting its more valuable, value added sheepmeat trade, points to important conclusions that are relevant to Australia:

• Improved processing productivity and efficiency can counteract and potentially more than offset the adverse impacts of ending live exports.

• The decision to end live exports can legitimately be made on strategic grounds.

• The decision can be made on the basis of potential cross sectoral impacts of the live trade on a much larger and more economically significant processing sector.

This report also states that the market incentives/distortions that support the profitability of live export at the expense of the chilled meat trade, are not intrinsic, but rather are created by governments or industry. The report concludes that the responsibility for correcting them or otherwise rests with governments or industry.

A significant aspect the Heilbron Report touches upon is the impact of the live export trade on the rural community. Whilst there may be benefits for the producers themselves as a result of live export – the negative aspect of animals being processed overseas has not ever fully been acknowledged in this debate. Abattoir closures and the associated departure of rural community members to seek employment elsewhere affect a range of local businesses and the very sustainability of rural townships.

There you have it. And don't forget the cruelty. HOW many "experts" did you say? (looking after animal welfare in the Middle East)

Penny, you clearly did not bother to read the Jewish Shechita document that
I referenced for you. What is cruel or not cruel is still open to scientific debate.
They provide evidence that its not and have studied it in a lot more detail then
you have. There is in fact a scientific study going on in Australia about this
very topic, to clarify things.

The Heilbron Report has more holes then Swiss cheese, we can debate them
point for point if you wish. Posts per day are the only limit.

Murray, a bit like you, knew nothing about the industry he was writing about,
just read something. I will explain it once, for all your benefit, as I was an
AQIS client at the time and knew how the system worked and paid my share
of fees.

AQIS funding is based on user pay, fee for service. So much per document
stamped, so much per hour of an inspector’s time, so much for establishment
fees. Their costs come from 2 main areas. One is the inspectors out in
the field, the other is head office in Canberra. Much of what goes on in
head office, incl their man stationed in Brussels, are political issues that
arise through trade. The Govt acknowledged that and agreed to pay
40% of the total cost of the service. Users pay the rest, still on a fee for
service basis, so much an hour etc.

Meatworks as part of their agreements with the EU, US etc, need to have
inspectors on hand, to check every carcass. That generates a lot of service,
so they pay high fees. The live trade does not require that kind of service,
so don’t generate the costs. They still pay fee for service, like everyone
else. The 40% Govt share is across all industries, none are favoured.

Nicky, your “true to say” is absolutaly false in WA. People leave meatworks
jobs as the mining industry can pay them 100k$ a year, the meat industry
cannot. Ask Rodger Fletcher.

Peta for honest information? Hehehehe

Yabby said

So Penny, Why are all the meat works screaming for workers

Pale
Still waiting to come.

Yabby
Penny, I purposefully leave the odd spelling mistake, because it shows up the
nature of my debating partners

Pale. Gee thanks Yabbs. And I purposely put them in at times in an attempt to distance myself from the higher moral ground of peta.
I am not saying they haven’t done good in all sorts of areas. I am just saying while ever people will only listen to veggie groups nothing is going to change. PETA BTW hates us. Much like some at AA>
Now don’t you find that a tad interesting. Wouldn’t you think AA the peak Animal welfare [self imposed] of this country and PETA would welcome all people who were concerned about animals?
The agenda has been since we joined OLO for certain people to target pale- not you Yabby.
You’re just the icing on the cake.

If peta were serious and those working with them that they wanted live replaced with carcass they would not have done all they could to block pale. They would have helped. That goes for WSPA also who rejected pale as a member.
All I can remember for years when I first started was complaints about Hugh Wirth RSPCA. = behind his back mostly. Just look up to see how the agreed petition we did was received.
Soon I will post the real background of Animal Welfare organization= Some. = No maybe all.
If they are arguing for live to stop then why refuse to help establish plants?

Yabby

Or shall I remind you farmers should be in jail.
Pale
Just the export agents
Yabby

How on earth do you expect Peta to do anything if they
same as George Bush
Pale= huh!Who do you think is behind the trade deal of live exports and the meat industry?

Yabby
Have you
never heard of people skills
Pale
Certainly not
Yabby said
The processing sector argument that Pale does not understand.
Yes pale does= two words= dirty deals

Yabby

Ah, the pre stunning

If, Public knew. They would have pink pussy cats upsetting Perciles

What’s ` really` behind the push to turn Australian into a Ritual Slaughter country.

Who. Is behind it and why.

BTW the argument is there 'is' no proof pre stunning is kinder.’

It wasn’t JAKIM who demanded this.

They are pretty reasonable if you sit and talk.

Yabby its all been a tad embarrassing for the Government with AQIS sending off the poor bloody live sacrifices to Saddam to support terrorists through AWB

.Mind you not enough for them to stop it.

Nor was it enough for Kevin Rudd to raise it at the AWB enquiry.

BTW some of your buddies were so upset to see the strippers protesting live exports outside the AWB enquiry they were stupid enough to stand there debating the issue- with the strippers! Hilarious

Pity AA didn’t even know and won’t be helped! Wont listen, won’t work together

.Mind you PeterMcGraunan was about to change things regarding peak groups black listing or targeting just one organization under parliament- pity

.

Yabby

FYI AFIC was never acknowledged by Saudi as a Halal accreditation Authority.

There are thirty two Islamic Councils in Australia and sixteen of those have Halal accreditation rights. Needless to say they fight like dogs and cats over it.

As you would know hundreds world wide. Then you have AQIS sitting on the phone issuing these licenses out to God knows who by electronic devise.
Lets face facts AQIS have shown the world they don’t know what they are doing with whom by the AWB.Enquiry [until it was shut down]

Now wouldn’t that have been good grounds to get at least a temporary ban by holding a Royal Commission into it= ‘If only AA had listened.

http://www.livexports.com/cowgun.html


So pale and HKM the useless @according to yourself, peta, AA etc [there are many] put a proposal to the Government working with AFIC under our MOU.

It was to protect Australia from funding terrorists, keep our economy safe and improve animal welfare, aboriginal lives etc.

TBC

Well here's one that bit the dust.

All together now girls - join the purulent cowpoke in his maniacal chortles of "Heheheh!"

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10485237

Yeeeeeeeee.... hey.......ride 'em cowboy............ooops!

pale,

"Yabb` little Shadow" - I'll presume this is an attempt at an insult. I have so far refrained from insulting because it does not further an argument. If you wish to engage in trading insults then say the word, and I shall begin.
If you did mean it literally, then I agree, I don't know anywhere near as much as Yabby about live-exports, nor WA.

Sorry, re: Hassall discredit, I was refering to either Nicky or Penny, as I wasn't sure which, who then go on to include ancilliary employment in their number of 40 000. Which by the way I'm still waiting to see from a credible source. In fact any other source.

"Rojo says
Not everything has to be a conspiracy.
Pale replies
That’s what I keep telling your lot= funny"

rojo now says- actions speak louder than words. But what exactly is my lot.

"Really= always interested of course = Perhaps you could act as an agent and pick half K."

What is half K? $500 or do you mean half commision? The ones I'm thinking of are in Gunnedah and Moree, go for your life. Think of it as my donation to ending live-exports. Fairly.

"I am terribly sorry I missed that one. Be a darling and re post it for me please"
Since you asked so nicely, from page 3 http://www2.dpi.qld.gov.au/health/3548.html

Please do me the decency of quoting my comments without editing out the middle.
"Penny makes an interesting point - that no matter how good the conditions are on board the ships it won't make any difference to she and others who have the same mindset. Because of the "atrocities" at the other end."

Is very different to your edit-"interesting point - that no matter how good the conditions on board the ships Because of the "atrocities" at the other end"

Please do not do so again. I do not mind if you only quote pieces, but don't join them together, out of context.

In regard to the serious shortage of meatworkers I have to say that Yabby is correct.

We have one of the largest abs in the state just up the road from us. They have been advertising for workers nation wide for months now to no avail. They claim that if they cannot expand and get the staff they will not remain viable and will close. Nothing at all to do with live exports. At present, people have to wait for weeks to get a 'kill'.

“The reason that claims are made about labour shortages is that people employed in that/those sectors had no option but to leave them when the live exporters caused the shutdown of their workplaces ” that statement is just no true Penny.

Our town will now be invaded by non english speaking vietnamese and Philippino’s that will send all their money back home after their stint here. (that’s if they all actually go home) How is that going to preserve jobs for australians? How is that going to benefit our economy?

http://inverell.yourguide.com.au/articles/1150082.html?src=search

Hi all
Firstly, welcome back, PF. The company Hyfarm contacted me, and told me there is a booming market for pigs exported live to the Philippines and China (and we know the records those countries have with animals). Those unfortunate enough to be sent to the Philippines are transported on cattle ships, those to China are sent by air. They claim to be breeding pigs suited to tropical climates.

The pigs are for breeding purposes, and go straight into intensive operations in those countries. The man who contacted me said that it was understood that "some people might have welfare issues with that".

As I understand it, to those people disputing the meat industry job losses - and I think it has been said on several occasions - those figures are direct from the AMIEU and the ABS. But people with their own agendas (Yabby and Rojo) would not believe them if they came from the almighty.

Schechita (kosher) slaughter is no different from any other ritual slaughter; a fully conscious terrified animal is left to choke on its own blood for however long that takes. Longer for cattle than for sheep, according to all references I have read. Therefore, any moves by Australia to allow it to occur would be a retrograde step.

As for sheep having their throats cut in Australia - for whatever reason - without stunning, all the Codes of Practice for the states abd territories provide for the "humane destruction" of animals (in the event of illness etc) - using bullets. But I guess a knife is cheaper, isn't it? And you can use its LOTS of times. I'm with Penny. It doesn;t matter whether it is a sheep, a cow, a pig, or a chicken. The CoPs are slack enough without you people compromising them even further, just because you can get away with it.
Nicky

"Our town will now be invaded by non english speaking vietnamese and Philippino’s that will send all their money back home after their stint here. (that’s if they all actually go home) How is that going to preserve jobs for australians? How is that going to benefit our economy?" PF

Come on PF. The overseas workers have a good record of attendance and a strong work ethic.

They have to pay tax and their own health insurance, but are covered by worker’s compensation for accidents on the job.

Social welfare programs, like unemployment benefits and pensions, are not available to 457 visa holders.

And if these workers are unsatisfactory, they're dispatched back home immediately.

I have a builder friend who now employs three temporary workers. He is so impressed with their work ethics, he has bought a house to accommodate them.

The economic boom is forecast to continue for at least ten years. That's of course if we have temporary workers and that beats permanently increasing our population.

But of course with the depletion of sheep in this country, the sociopathic live exporters don't want any competition, do they? Nor do they want to risk any potential reform of the industry. Indeed not. They prefer to have the barbarians slaughter our animals off-shore and deprive the Australian economy of valuable funds.

Speaking of barbarians (not the home-grown ones) it appears that they are practising their heinous religious activities in this country. In addition, Minister McGauran has exempted these people from stunning animals prior to slaughter.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/sheep-killed-whileawake/2007/09/18/1189881513965.html

Does the status quo remain in place with the incumbent government?

And is there no end to this industry's atrocities against their livestock?

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/09/26/1190486394030.html

Nicky, for once scratch that brain for a minute. The sheep flock has halved since
the early 90s, due to lack of profitability etc, from 170 million to 85 million.
Sheep income comes from both wool and meat. That means half the kill of sheep
in Australian meatworks. If the goose that lays the golden eggs is plucked too hard
it dies, as the unions have found out the hard way.

So we have 25-30 million sheep a year less to kill in Australia, due to the flock
shrinking. The live trade have operated at 4-6 million for 30 years or so.
Where did the job losses come from?

As to Sheckita, are you qualified in neuroscience or vetinary science?
Did you check the scientific opinions mentioned in the document?

Have you heard of phantom limbs causing pain? Have you heard of people
losing limbs and not even being aware of it, until they looked down and
checked?

Neuroscientists tell us that volume controls or gate controls modulate
feelings of pain in certain circumstances, that’s why things like acupuncture
can actually work, as they do.

The muslims have made their own claims, when it comes to scientific
studies:

http://www.halaljournal.com/artman/publish/article_165.shtml

Its time these things were investigated scientifically and the truth
established scientifically, not just claims by housewives with dogs :)

*the sociopathic live exporters don't want
any competition, do they?*

Farmers want competition Dickie and that’s what matters! The more
competition the better. Fact is that the live trade at least keeps our
local processors a little bit honest on some grades of livestock, there
is nobody else.

WA has exactly one single, large, efficient mutton processor. He calls
the shots, where is the competition? No wonder our dismal local
mutton prices, are well below Eastern States prices. Processors have made
it clear that they are not a charity, they will buy livestock as cheaply
as possible.

So farmers respond by baling out of sheep. This year some are not even
going to bother mating their merino ewes, many are selling flocks and
switching to other things, the goose keeps shrinking.

Yabby, you defeat your own argument. If live exports have remained static at 4-6 million, clearly there are less animals available for slaughter in Australia. That is why you have a monopoly situation in WA, the live exporters have driven the rest out of business.

PF, migrant workers may send some of their money home. But as Dickie rightly points out, there are things that they MUST pay for/contribute to whilst working in this country. In addition to the points that Dickie made, they have to eat, use transport/buy cars and fuel, pay taxes and various other lifestyle expenses. Conversely, the ships upon which the unfortunate animals are loaded are, without exception, foreign owned. I have found five references so far of crews from these ships "jumping ship" (from the Al Kuwait, Al Shuwaikh, Al Messilah, and the Danny F II, on multiple occasions) which suggests that conditions for the animals on these monstrosities are simply abysmal.

Yabby, get real. Neuroscience notwithstanding, if I cut your keg off while you are conscious, you are going to feel it a hell of a lot more than if I cut it off while you are unconscious (I'm putting it simple terms so that you can understand). Likewise, if you are bleeding to death, especially if you add terror, and choking on your own blood to the equation. You should read some of Temple Grandin's work. She is a US agriculture (livestock) professor who provides advice on handling, and specifically slaughter, around the world.

The practice of pre-stunning was brought in for a reason. And since the barbarians (as Dickie so aptly describes them) accept hundrds of thousands of tonnes of meat from Australia (and NZ) from animals who HAVE been stunned there is absolutely no excuse for not doing so. Thankfully, McGauran is a man of the past.

BTW, how does a)being a housewide (I'm not but I know some extremely qualified and intelligent ones) and b)having dog/s render one incapable of intellligent thought? I thought you said earlier that you have dog/s - has that compromised your intellectual capacities?
Nicky

Rojo wasn’t intentional= sorry

Dickie Nicky Well done!

Yabby this is BS!>

http://www.halaljournal.com/artman/publish/article_165.shtml
Watch it Ikabel!

PF,Jobs for Sea Change Families,Aboriginal, regional.

Many migrants 'do' Better than centerlink.

Yabbysaid
Interestingly the Heilbron report states 10500 "lost" jobs, the AMIEU's claim. No wonder you are distancing yourself from it-
[ pale [yup]

Yabby said
Where I see the problem is that you guys have your fixed little views there,
which are all black and white, based on your philosophies, which are banners
on your websites. You lack people qualified in livestock, as distinct from pets.
You have marketing people, graphics people, all kinds of most likely really
nice people, but with a set, inflexible agenda. You refuse to think outside the square or to compromise. I don’t think that’s very intelligent.

Pale relies

We agree with you Yabby. We have encouraged everyone to work with farmers and seek knowledgeable people in the meat industry.

We don’t know it all but at least we post our own comments based on our own experience.

We have offered countless times to put interested members of the public in touch with Muslim buyers wanting to visit Australian farmers to talk Halal farms and Plants.

Wouldn’t you think these people who claim they want live diverted to carcass might say this=
Well I am buggered if I know, but, hey what the hell, if they reckon they have the contacts, it’s not going to cost me anything to try it and it may help the animals?

Do you hear them saying that? No !

Because they are loyal to the cause. Problem is they don’t know what that is.

Ok Lets try this Yabby= we will buy your sheep before you send them to ME.

I will arrange their slaughter by contract here so the girls won’t have to worry about the gritty details.

Who knows Yabbs, with all the emotion you might do really well!

Gee we may have solved the live trade problem already= Auctions through OLO
So who will start me with a bid?

Do I hear $40.00 to start ``````````````````````````````````````````````````

"The sheep flock has halved since the early 90s, due to lack of profitability etc, from 170 million to 85 million."

In 1993 there were 140 million sheep; 1994, 130 million and 2007 there are now 86.3 million. 50% reduction? And lack of profitability eh? How about an honest answer for a change. The drought is knocking off thousands of sheep and yet you are frantically looking for ways to increase them and further their misery and your obscene profit margin.

Since your industry has already eroded the soil of some 58% of Australia's arid land mass, with your cloven hooved animals, when will you and your industry get the message that you are now the plague of the 21st century?

Added to that you kill or maim any other creature which comes within coo-ee of your cloven hooved stock which you force-feed with drugs and chemicals. Then you further deplete the health of the land by growing crops, laden with chemicals, to feed the animals which humans eat after they are slaughtered.

You've deprived native species of their habitats where these animals are now seriously threatened. Then there's the toxicity (and the yet unknown impacts) of the heinous 1080 bait to wild animals' and humans' eco-systems and yet you remain an ignorant cowpoke who bangs on incessantly about profit margins.

And here's a few statistics for your neck of the woods:

Key findings

"At a national level, Western Australia has 8 of 12 Australian biodiversity hotspots.

"At a global level, the South West is recognised as one of the world's 34 biodiversity hotspots.

"WA currently has 362 threatened plants, 199 threatened animals and 69 threatened ecological communities.

"Recovery plans have been developed for less than one-third of threatened species and ecological communities.

"There is ongoing loss and degradation of biodiversity in WA.

"Knowledge about many species and ecosystems and some threats to biodiversity remains inadequate." "State of the Environment - EPA"

Please Cowpoke, spare me any of your inane, ludicrous sophistry!

penny, thanks for basically copying out Andrew Bartletts 2003 senate submission about parts OF the Heilbron report.

http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/rrat_ctte/animal_welfare05/submissions/sub03a.pdf

What you seem to have done is taken secondhand info, and presented it as from the report itself. I'm sure that info wouldn't have been cherry picked, not to support a welfare bill, would it?

Why did Bartlett not mention that the discrepancy between the AMEIU and Heilbron was because of "direct jobs", I've already posted the AMEIU estimate of about 2500 direct jobs, and 17000 downstream jobs mentioned in Bartletts submission. http://www.liveexportshame.com/meat_union_release.htm

So we seem to be talking about a report on a report. How's that for accuracy. That would lead me to suggest you don't actually know whether or not Heilbron refers to direct jobs, but I'm more than happy to be proved wrong. Oh and don't forget the 40000 claim, still waiting.

As to Nicky's sky is falling journo(same one Bartlett relies on above), in his piece he talks about the Linder report stating
"the live animal export trade provides benefits in the form of higher farm gate prices for livestock producers ..."

Who's losing ground badly here?

Hi again all
Yabby, I have read your schechita reference and remain unconvinced, as I am by the halal reference PALE included in the last post. PALE, if I could make a suggestion, should it not be up to the your group, farners, politicians, and possibly AMIEU executives to meet your Muslim friends? I don't think it is for members of tbe public, regardless of the level of their concern and antipathy, to get involved at that level, not the least because you then create another potential "middle person" and invite conflicts of interest. Likewise, I don't think you can reasonably expect positive input from other animal advocacy groups given what you are encouraging here. You have a cognitive dissonance, if you like, in basic philosophy, and demeaning theirs, and their strategies, is perhaps less than helpful and doesn't assist yours.

Dickie, Peter Singer identified the damage that "exotic" animals (cloven hooved species) have done to the fragile Australian eco-systems back in the 1970s, so as usual you are correct in identifying those who continue to farm them as a plague on those systems. As for 1080, (sodium monofluroacetate) it is a brutal poison, but as soon as any animal is identified as a "pest" or "feral", any means of control and eradication, no matter how cruel, has become accepted. 1080 is, as a matter of interest, under suspicion down in Tasmania as a contributor to the Tasmanian Devil Facial Tumour epidemic, so that state is facing the exctinction of yet another endangered species.

Reports I've read say that farmers down there, and their lobby group, are screaming at the prospect of a ban on 1080 just the same. That must tell you something.

Nite all,
Nicky

pale, now you are doing it again.

Yabby did not say:
"Yabbysaid
Interestingly the Heilbron report states 10500 "lost" jobs, the AMIEU's claim. No wonder you are distancing yourself from it-"

I said:
Interestingly the Heilbron report states 10500 "lost" jobs, just over half of the AMIEU's claim. No wonder you are distancing yourself from it.
Posted by rojo, Friday, 4 January 2008 11:21:47 AM

Please, please try and get it right. You just can't get cut and paste that wrong accidently, can you? Omitting "just over half" makes a big difference to this statement.

Rojo, the mathematical constructs are certainly interesting. The Heilbron references I have included have come from my copy of the Heilbron Report, which is no doubt what Andrew Bartlett used too.

Extract of the Murray article the West Australian 17/04/2004 :

"An Australian Bureau of Agriculture and Resource Economics study found that during the Saudi embargo, Australian live sheep exported to the United Arab Emirates were processed there and re-exported to Saudi Arabia as chilled and frozen product.

"So much for the argument that Middle East clients refuse processed meat. So much for the pastoralists' argument that the sky would fall if live sheep exports ended.

"The report points out that the decline in live cattle exports between 1997 and 1999 because of the Asian economic crisis was from 428,000 head to 41,000 head year on year. Did pastoralists walk off their properties then?

"It states that "the live animal export trade provides benefits in the form of higher farm gate prices for livestock producers ..."

And the Lindner task force says the Federal Government was warned way back in 1983 that the demand of live sheep exporters "effectively raises the price which meat processors have to pay to secure sheep for slaughter in Australia".

"Finally, the report asserts that the Federal Government actively favours livestock exports over local processing by subsidising the cost of their inspection services.

"In August 2001, the Federal Government made a contribution to the live animal export program equivalent to 40 per cent of Australian Quarantine Inspection Service fees for live animal exports," the report says.

"The net effect has been to reduce charges to the live export sector by about 40 per cent while maintaining AQIS policy that fees be set on a 100 per cent cost recovery basis. Since the introduction of this subsidy, it is estimated that inspection charges for all animal live exports from WA have been subsidised by an annual amount of $400,000.

"By contrast, the larger abattoirs in WA each pay more than $400,000 per annum for AQIS meat inspection services."

ALP States allowes ritual slaughter .

Withdrew MOU with AFIC.

Ikebal weak .
Ikabel with HKM RSPCA QLD to the Senate enquiry into Animal Welfare.

http://www.halakindmeats.com/submissions.html


Oh BTW Nicky Wonder why Andrew in twenty years didn’t ask AFIC for something like this>

http://www.livexports.com/afic.html


Nicky
PALE, if I could make a suggestion, should it not be up to the group, farmers, politicians, and possibly AMIEU executives to meet your Muslim friends?

Pale replies
See what I mean- You haven’t even bothered to look at this>
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Who Nicky do you see standing there other than the head of the AMIEU?

And This+=See the X Federal Leader of AMIEU for thirty years along side RSPCA CEO Muslim Delegates and others.
Actually Andrew was at that meeting.

And I will Say It Again AMIEU "were told to back off! Live Exports”, quite some time ago!

Nicky

I don't think it is for members of the public, regardless of the level of their concern and antipathy, to get involved at that level,

Pale
What level- You mean actually doing something other than fund raising? Why Not? Who said we have to follow AA and Peta rules! Who do they think they are.

I will tell you right now it’s the only thing that will make the difference
Either help us to support the kind Muslims or cop the cruel ones.

Help the farmers and you help the Animals.

Nicky
Likewise, I don't think you can reasonably expect positive input from other animal advocacy groups given what you are encouraging here.

Pale - Interesting

Nicky
You have a cognitive dissonance, if you like, in basic philosophy, and demeaning theirs, and their strategies, is perhaps less than helpful and doesn't assist yours.

Pale
Yes I am sure it is! Umm would that be the veggie extreme do as your told PETA rules Nicky?

Nicky
Dickie, Peter Singer identified.
Pale
Oh dear- What now? That abortion is murder?

Nicky said

Reports I've read.

Pale
Tells me 1080 has competition. They need [herd dogs]

BTW Saffron kindest death

Penny, so you are basically saying that you don't know if the 10500 are direct jobs because the info in the report is as Bartlett presented it-just numbers. Which are in direct conflict with the AMIEU's estimate of 2500 direct jobs, which I am more than sure are not under-estimated. Especially since the AMIEU's claim is from 2003, several years after Heilbron's report was released. In fact that estimate was when over 6 million sheep were exported, now it is closer to 4 million. Now about that 40 000...

Thanks for the longer sky article, but I've already read it. Pity you left out the bits about "lamby pamby" and "beefy weefy", compulsive reading.

dickie, so it's not just about live exports, there's a surprise. What was the point with the rodeo post, that Auckland has a sensitive Mayor who wants animals to give up their right to hurt humans? Sounds like he's in for a rough ride.(yes, weak pun intended)

Dickie, if you bothered to check, the Australian sheep flock in 90/91 was 170 million.
Its now around 85 million. Box poison, which contains 1080, grows along side
of the road here. You are of course free to put a bit in your cup of tea, as a natural
herbal drink :)

Nicky, I’d rather rely on good scientific evidence when it comes to the question
of pain etc, then your convictions. Given the importance of meat exports to the
Australian economy and the various claims, it only stands to reason that a proper
scientific study is overdue , so that the arguments are settled once and
for all.

I certainly did not defeat my own argument. The live exporters drove nobody
out of business, they continued as ever. The drop in sheep numbers drove
some out of business and many meatworks closed due to union thuggery.

Penny, if you happen to rely on articles such as that of Murray for your opinions,
that is your problem. Murray has spent much of his time as a shock jock,
he clearly does not know a great deal about agriculture. He was challenged
by many about that article, including by me.

You are free to call AQIS and find out how their charging system works.
The claims made were a distortion of the facts. You people then read
such dribble and repeat it endlessly, without checking.

If you are like 70% of the population, then you drive an imported car.
Next thing you complain about jobs lost to overseas in the meat industry.
Have you thought of trying to ban car imports? Why should farmers
not be allowed to compete in a global market as others are?

Rojo said
Pale, now you are doing it again.

Yabby did not say:
"Yabbysaid
Interestingly the Heilbron report states 10500 "lost" jobs, the AMIEU's claim. No wonder you are distancing yourself from it-"

*I* said:
Interestingly the Heilbron report states 10500 "lost" jobs, just over half of the AMIEU's claim. No wonder you are distancing yourself from it.
Posted by rojo, Friday, 4 January 2008 11:21:47 AM

Please, please try and get it right. You just can't get cut and paste that wrong accidently, can you? Omitting "just over half" makes a big difference to this statement.
Posted by rojo, Saturday, 5 January 2008 11:42:13 PM

pale replies.
I am no office girl. I have other skills. I would apologize [again] but I don’t know to whom I should direct it= Can you help?
Yup whom do we address this = *l* perhaps. = Or *You* Or Yabby?
And who is *I*?
Because you are quite right Yabby did not say, = *Rojo Did.

Is it any wonder I get confused.
It drives me nuts. Its not just you.

Where is Robert and the pale car park now. [Just kidding]

Please try to get it right Mr *I*

After saying that= I am not happy with myself. I don’t like the Robbie Dobby types and you stayed out of the car park so I assume you don’t either.
It’s just that you accused me of trying to insult you when I was actually just cracking a joke and letting you off in good spirit.

Also because I was disappointed to see you in support of Rodeos

Remember the=

Old Proverb

Small I may be- But am I much

Terrible may I be- But am I good.

Ladies= what happened to the title of this thread= Did Kevin Rudd tell porkies pre election or play any part in misrepresentation of his policy.?

Yabby said
Why should farmers
not be allowed to compete in a global market as others are?

Pale replies

They can and they should instead of sending raw materials in their most valuable form.

Animals are not cars yabby.

There’s a few people on this thread with tunnel vision I fear.

Dickie – I will try to be offended by your generalisation of farmers. Some of us have a holistic approach to farming and care of the environment is just as important as animal welfare. In fact, the two go hand in hand. Animal health on farms that are managed carefully and without the use of chemical fertilizer, pesticides etc, is far higher than those raised using ‘conventional’ methods. It only follows that meat produced on these farms is much better for human health.

Nicky – I don’t think Hyfarm have had much experience with the animal welfare concerns of their operation yet, and I think I would be stressing the yet? It has been kept very quiet. Yes the pigs will go to intensive farms in asia, but they came from those conditions. Don’t automatically assume they would be worse over there – the asians have a much higher regard for the pig than we do.

There seems to be an undertow of almost hatred for farmers here from some posters.

Some of you seem to know these reports verbatim and treat them like a bible. Have you bothered to take an honest look at the issues from the other side? None of you seem to have any hands on experience. I have said it before, get to know what is happening in your own backyard.

"Dickie, if you bothered to check, the Australian sheep flock in 90/91 was 170 million.Its now around 85 million."

So now it's "90/91" is it Yabby. You did say the "early 90's." Why do you continue to distort the truth?

Then you reiterate: "Its now around 85 million."

I reiterate: "2007 there are now 86.3 million"

And the MLA and the ABS on 20/12/07 said this:

"Today’s release of the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS), Principal Agricultural Commodities, Australia, Preliminary, 2006-07, estimated that the Australian cattle herd fell 1% in the year to 30 June 2007, to 28.2 million head, while sheep numbers plunged 5.2%, to 86.3 million head."

How curious that I am accurate on farming statistics and you are not!

But then you have never let the truth get in the way of your evil intent, have you?

"Box poison, which contains 1080, grows along side
of the road here."

Cyanide, belladonna and digitalis also grows in plants, you fool!

PF. We've been through this before. My criticisms are not directed at those sincere in their endeavours to farm in a "holistic" manner.

And so do the following links indicate that we have more manipulation by state and federal governments to protect their heinous live exports?

And why the manipulation of Visa 457 specifically for abattoirs when other industries are not obliged to comply with these tougher conditions?

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/wa/content/2006/s1930247.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/wa/content/2006/s2104228.htm

Of course when governments continually sleep with mangy dogs they become infested with vermin, don't they?

Err dickie, old age and the buzzards circling must be starting
to affect you :)

I remind you that the ABS sends nobody out on the 30/6 to count
sheep, so these figures are rough estimates. Given the
number of WA farmers selling up their flocks to grow more
crops, we could well be below 85 million by now. I've seen
others claim its actually a high estimate anyhow.

But pedantic you will be, focussing on every detail, rather
then have the ability to look at the big picture.

Perhaps you should go back to bed, then get out the other side,
your mood might improve :)

.

Next point 90/91 is in fact early 90s. Again these figures
were rough estimates, not counting to the last sheep. They
could well be 2-3 million up or down, nobody counts that
accurately.

So my 50% figure is correct, even if it were 49 or 51, it
really would not matter. My point remains, you can argue
over the trivia, as is your nature.

Dickie

Your on the right track now. Well done!
Go get them!

http://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/hansard/hans35.nsf/NFS/947c9d2bdc1db86748257081002561f6

House: Legislative Assembly
Date: Wednesday, 17 August 2005

Subject: ABATTOIR INDUSTRY, INQUIRY

ABATTOIR INDUSTRY, INQUIRY
MotionMotion

MR P.D. OMODEI (Warren-Blackwood - Deputy Leader of the Opposition) [5.01 pm]: I move -

(1) That this house calls on the government to conduct an inquiry into the abattoir industry in Western Australia, and in particular -
(a) the reasons for the closure of Harvey Beef;

(b) the location of current abattoirs;

(c) potential sites for new abattoirs;

(d) identify current abattoirs and their classification;

(e) future sites suitable for international accreditation; and

(f) whether government should provide incentives for new abattoirs or upgrading or relocation of current abattoirs,

and any other matter pertaining to domestic and export abattoirs which inhibits their development and existence.

(2) That the matter be referred to the Economics and Industry Standing Committee.

(3) That the government take action on any matter relating to the continuation of a viable beef industry while the committee inquires into this matter.

This is a really important issue. The last part of the motion states -

That the government take action on any matter relating to the continuation of a viable beef industry while the committee inquires into this matter.

I moved that quite deliberately so that the government will not be tardy in its response to these very important issues and does not refer matters to the standing committee in a way that would delay the committee’s deliberations. However, the committee aside, one of the main reasons for my moving this motion and for the urgency of the motion is, of course, the closure of Harvey Beef. I want to impress on all members of the house, in particular government members and ministers, that the closure of Harvey Beef pending its negotiations with its financiers, the National Australia Bank, AWB Landmark and Elders, the stock agents, is an issue that could cause irreparable damage to the beef industry in Western Australia should it take longer than one week.

Thanks Pale, did an investigation ensue?

"Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: I will come back to the Leader of the National Party. That will ensure that our farmers have a continued livelihood, and there will not be the clashes that we currently see between some groups in the community, which say that the sheep trade should be banned.

"Mr G. Snook: They don’t know what they’re talking about.

"Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: They see the trucks go through and they see videos of different things that are happening. I believe that that movement would be right behind this Parliament if it thought that an inquiry was being conducted to help develop more abattoirs in WA, with the prospect of acquiring markets throughout the world in the future, thereby creating more prosperity for our farmers. I will take the Leader of the National Party’s interjection.

"Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: I appreciate what the member for Merredin is saying. Twenty years ago I worked in the Middle East for almost two years. We are very much the poor relations of some of those countries in the Middle East. They could have the facilities there tomorrow. They say that they do not have these facilities. However, when we see the income that goes into those countries, it is clear that they could very easily set up the frozen food warehouses, or whatever they are called. This is not my area, so I am not sure what they are called.

Grylls: The processors in the Middle East want to buy the beef live because that is where they make their money.

"Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: A lot of people in the Middle East do make their money from that. In particular, the sheep that go over there are used for sacrificial purposes. However, I wonder whether the number of sheep that go to the Middle East need to go there. With this investigation and these inquiries, hopefully we will be able to encourage the government to look for more markets overseas that will accept frozen meat from Australia.

Note: Two responses from Grylls eliminated due to word limit.

For Yabby and Rojo (and others) here is the source of the figures I quoted:-

8 November 2007

The following is an extract from a press release from the Meat Worker’s union, voicing their opposition to the live animal export trade:

"Our organisation who represent meat processing industry workers, congratulates Lyons MHR Dick Adams and Senator Kerry O'Brien for standing up for Meat Workers Jobs. This policy also reflects the concerns of the wider community in relation to animal welfare standards.

(Paragraph about 1985 Senate Select Committee and Liberal candidate for the seat of Lyons deleted due to space constraints)

"Thanks to a hostile Senate at the time, that outcome was ignored and over the last 20 years some 150 meat processing plants have closed with 40 000 meat workers, either stood down indefinitely or made redundant through out Australia. This has occurred as a direct result of livestock shortages due to the increase in live animal exports.

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/news/?article=65

The press release was written by Grant Courtney, who is the State Secretary of the AMIEU in Tasmania.

Pale, I don't know about Nicky, but I find your post on page 13 confusing (perhaps Nicky is better informed than I am). I looked at the references (Halal Kind Meats - and where did the awful music come from?) and I'm wondering whether Pale has a conflict of interest since at least some of the principals appear to be common to both Pale and HKM. That could be the reason why other animal welfare groups have not wanted to get involved. They probably believe that your way is NOT the only way, and yours is a strategy they choose not to follow, as is their right. They possibly feel that you have vested interests through the HKM connection.

I heard too that slaughterhouses in Tasmania were for sale recently, why did you not take up an option there?

Nicky, Tom Hannan, so far as I know, has been retired for some time, and I'm told that Graeme Haynes (WA) and Grant Courtney (Tasmania)are the ones with the up to date information.

PF, like Dickie, my criticisms are not directed to farmers of the holistic persuasion, and who take responsibility for their impact upon the environment.

Pale, have you thought about why your HKM venture has not taken off as you obviously expected? You seem to want to lay a lot of blame on anyone who does not agree with your position - be it Nicky, Andrew Bartlett, Animals Australia or PETA. I think if you thoroughly research all the latter three you will find that they actively promote a chilled meat trade in place of live exports (see www.savethesheep.com for PETA's position papers, you are probably familiar with the other sources). You make extravagant and derisory claims about "vegie groups" when the membership of those groups would mostly comprise non-vegetarians. They could not afford to operate if they placed such narrow restrictions on their entire membership.

It is still my belief that this is a matter of politics. Yabby, you are correct in saying that Australia also exports cars to the Middle East (BTW, I drive an Australian manufactured car). My personal opinion is that there SHOULD be limits placed on imports, given Australia's trade deficit. The car industry in Australia has also been decimated, along with the textile, clothing and footwear industry.

But cars are not living animals, (leaving aside the value-adding components) and the AMIEU media release I posted in part before is quite clear about the repercussions of what you do on the meat industry and those who depend on it. Why are they less important than farmers making a fast buck? Quite frankly, farmers get far more support than anyone else in the community, and in the business world where you have to compete in your environment or go under. Not farmers; they just get more handouts from the government (sorry, PF, I am not necessarily including you in that)

Penny I am sure that unions say all sorts of things, to justify their role. How
accurate they are, is another question. Even you can crunch a few numbers,
so I’ll give you the basics. It takes around 300 workers to kill a million
sheep a year.

Sadly even that is too many, as wages are still the largest cost of running
a meatworks. It now costs more to put a sheep down a chain, then is
often paid to the grower.

When the union has been challenged in WA, as to where all the workers
are, their response seems to be that they would appear if much higher
wages were paid.

Mr Fletcher will tell you that mutton has to compete with cheap chicken
and beef from Brazil etc. Most mutton is sold in the third world, so price
is the driving factor. So to pay workers far more, would mean farmers
just about having to give them the sheep for free. As we can show,
with a drop of 85 million in Australian sheep numbers, lack of
profitability has been the biggest factor in reducing the meat industry
on the East coast. Most years about a million sheep come from the
East that go on boats, that’s about 300 workers.

NZ is a bit of a different story. They have a huge quote to sell in
to the EU market, about 260k tonnes compared to our 16k tonnes.
In that market, prices are quite a bit higher. But even now, NZ farmers
are baling out of lamb production and into intensive dairy farming,
as Aus and NZ meatworks have been out discounting one another
in world markets, to the sheep industry farmers losses.

The answer to all these problems IMHO will be large scale automation,
to solve the labour problem. That is being examined right now by the
industry. Only a month or so ago, there was a large conference in
Sydney, IIRC. One problem is that whilst there are some amazing
automation solutions, they have not yet been adapted to the sheep
industry.

*Why are they less important than farmers making a fast buck?*

A fast buck Penny? ROFL. There is hardly an industry as long term as agriculture.
I started a project here, breeding wool free sheep, some 8 years ago. I have so far
achieved maybe 30% of my objectives. Fact is that agriculture is one of the least
profitable industries in Australia. One expert recently stated that most farmers are
technically bankrupt, its only increasing land values that hold the wheels on the cart.

All around Australia, meatworks are looking for labour. Where are these 40’000
people? Fact is, Aussies don’t want to do crappy jobs anymore, they have other
options.

You might approve of tariffs and quotas, but market economics is here to stay,
as it gets results. There is a shortage of workers in Australia, that’s why the
457 workers and migrants etc. You can’t put drug addicts on a meat chain,
Worksafe would nail you.

*farmers get far more support than anyone else in the community,*

Rubbish. The MV industry got around 7 billion. I could go on. Besides,
I have no problem if all farm payments are cut, as most go to NSW anyhow,
not to WA. As long as other industries are treated the same.

Farming still has one problem, Govts can’t legislate for rainfall. If drought
hits, livestock have to go somewhere. They can go to a meatworks if
space is available, or they can go on a boat, or they can die in the paddock.

We saw what happened in the last drought. Farmers had to sell for a song,
as processors knew they had to sell, or they would die in the paddocks.
Market forces prevailed, processors made it clear they were not a charity.

Or they went on a boat, for hugely increased values, which saved them
dying of starvation and gave farmers cashflow to buy feed for the core
breeding herds to survive.

I have long argued that meatworks should be allowed to bring in 457
workers to run a second shift, in times of drought.

Yabby, you at least never surprise me. Do you not think that, if the meat workers will say what suits their agenda, so will the farmers? Give us a break! Your arguments are as unpersuasive as ever, because you STILL, no doubt deliberately, fail to properly address the cruelty issues. After all, the material that Animals Australia, PETA and CIWF have filmed and documented doesn't lie and cannot be fabricated. And so far (in the absence of better information), we have a total of three "experts" on the ground in the whole of the Middle East (all on the MLA payroll subsidized by the government therefore by the taxpayer) reportedly addressing this. It's not real good, is it, given that we are talking about MILLIONS of animals.

Given that I have three discrete sources of information - the animal welfare information, the meat workers information and yours, I think I'll go with the former two. You are only about self-preservation on the backs of the animals hapless enough to belong to you. And the cost to them doesn't matter.

penny, just a few points, mainly again in regard to the 40000. The quote you provided includes all supposed job losses over 20 years, nation wide. Very convienient to blame all those "losses" on live exports, we certainly wouldn't expect them to point out efficiency gains, economies of scale(or lack thereof) let alone the overall lack of animals, particularly sheep during this period, had anything to do with the decline.
The least credible part is that the current number of people employed in the direct meat processing industry, incuding sheep meat is about 18000 http://www.agfoodgroup.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/251595/agfood_stocktake_sheep.pdf

And the total involved in all meat related activities- small goods manufacturers,the lot, is 48000(abare).

So are you going to honestly sit there and expect me to believe that a country that slaughters 15 million(sheepmeat council) sheep a year will nearly double the entire workforce with an extra 4 million. A workforce that includes all chicken, pork and beef.(note: live beef exports represent a substantially lower percentage of total production).
And then take into account the thousands of jobs involved with live-export.

If these jobs have been truly lost, why the difficulty in filling current positions?

Penny

` Andrew, AA Peta Next. Good One attacking someone informing you of the complications.

That awful Music to which you refer is the Bushman’s bible” The Cattlemen from the High Planes”

Slim Dusty=we are talking to farmers. I am SURE your friends AA would! Find it as a conflict as you so helpfully point out.

Also you are aware pale works in conjunction with RSPCA QLD and HKM enjoys our CEOs support.

Suzanne Toms` retired – not dead. Hilarious!

Matter of fact for “memory I think “he” picked that bloody awful Music. I will be sure to pass on your
Comments. He’s traveling atm. Say hello to Grant for us- He’s a close friend of Toms


Shall post confirmation to us “from AA”declaring they could NOT support abattoirs >?

THE PLAN"

In the beginning was the plan.
And then came the Assumptions.

And the Assumptions were without form.
And the plan was completely without substance, and

The darkness was upon the face of the workers and they
spoke amongst themselves, saying, it’s a crock of SH and it stinks".

And the workers went unto their supervisors and said
it~ a pail of dung and none can abide its odor".

And the supervisors went unto their managers and said to them,
it’s a container of excrement and it is very strong, such that
none may abide it"

And the managers went unto their directors and said,
it is a vessel of fertilizer and none may abide its strength'

And The Directors spoke amongst themselves saying to
one another,' It contains that which aids plant growth
and it is very strong".

And the directors went unto the vice - presidents and
said unto them, it promotes growth and is very powerful"

And the vice presidents went unto the President and
said unto him, ' This new plan will actively promote the
growth and efficiency of this Company and will be most
effective".

And The President looked upon the Plan and saw that it was good.

And the PLAN became POLICY.

And my friend that’s how SH Happens in the Meat Industry!

Hi all
There seems to be a bit of infighting happening yet again. Penny provided the reference everyone so doubted, and obviously such claims cannot be made without foundation. PALE, I'm afraid I get really mystified about some of your posts, and whose agenda you are actually following. There just doesn't seem to be coherent thought there. Like Yabby, you seem to believe that insulting and/or patronising people will a) get your point across (and it's a very obscure one at times, I'm afraid) and b) make everyone believe you are right and c) your facts are the only facts when often what you quote simply comes from your own website and is without reference. I assume that when you have called Penny Suzanne you meant me, but I don't know why. She has in fact quoted from a media release on Animals Australia's website. Also - what makes you think the AMIEU has been told to "back off" on live exports?

Rojo, you asked for the facts and Penny gave them to you, properly referenced. I think Dickie was right in stating that a large number of unemployed meat workers woud have been taken up in the mining boom in WA; people will go where the money is, and that is particularly true of people in the lower ranges of skills sets. Neither is pleasant work, and the resources boom will come to an end.

The Howard government's treatment of the unemployed would have driven substantial numbers into retraining in other sectors as well. That was certainly the case in NSW and Victoria.

Nite all,
Nicky

pale, I do make allowances for your "confusion" which is why I wasn't upset that you wrongly attributed my quote to Yabby. I should have mentioned that misquotation several times in my post, and I can understand why you would forget to check back on your own posts. It would have saved you some embarassment, and possibly Yabby too. I don't mind that you think I'm Yabby, but Yabby may not be as happy about being thought of as me.
Anyway, if You came up with that conclusion, it's already nullified itself.

Have a read back through the posts, mine about the 10500 jobs, my quote that your lack of "office skills" butchered , which you wrongly attribute to Yabby and then your last post to me, including some reference to a Robert? In a carpark?

My advice to you is get it right in the first place, it'll save you being "driven nuts". Well maybe not.

Yabby, no offence meant(to you). If the quote didn't have omissions I would have left well enough alone. Hope you at least get a laugh over the confusion. I assume you know something about a carpark.

Hi Rojo
I don't. What's the car park about? And PALE possibly thinks we are all a conspiracy, you and Yabby being one person, and there is a Suzanne mentioned twice and I can't find a post anywhere from a Suzanne. Perhaps I'm going nuts.
Nicky

Rojo, I have long ago given up trying to make sense of Pale’s posts, but you
can keep on trying :)

Nicky, you are free to call me patronising if you wish, but the arrogant disdain which
some of you paper shufflers display towards farmers, gives me every reason to think
that its high time that somebody challenged your many claims.

Now its all very well for all these veggie groups, with their agendas and slick marketing campaigns, to post all sorts of stuff on their websites, but how much of this
stuff is actually true?

Just because something is referenced, does not make it so. A good portion of OLO is
taken up by true believers quoting their bibles. They have yet to show that the Almighty had anything to do with writing it. Similarly, the claim of 40’000 jobs
lost because of the live trade needs some substantiation, if you are going to make
that kind of a claim. A quote from a union official is not good enough lol.

Penny, last time I checked, the MLA budget for animal welfare was around the
three million $ mark. How many people they employ and in what roles, I really
don’t know. Some funds are being spent in SE Asia for restraining systems etc
and IMHO, once they have finished over there, a similar system for sheep in
the ME would be most welcome and solve a lot of animal welfare issues.

Fact is that Australian farmers are the only ones doing anything about animal
welfare in the ME. That helps all animals over there, not just Australian ones.

What are the rest of you doing, other then sitting by your computers, making
smartarsed comments about us farmers and the evils of livestock farming?

How many of you have even bothered to really think through the consequences
of what would happen on the ground here, if the live trade ended, in terms
of animals and animal welfare? Do we go back to shooting them and burying
them in pits, as we did in the early 90s?

Hi Nicky, It's all a bit too much re: double identity conspiracies, I can't see what anyone has to gain by doing so, and even if they felt the "need" to it doesn't invalidate their posts, it would be easier just to humour them.

I'll go back and check Penny's references, and while I may not have properly referenced mine I stick by the figures, and to the best of my ability present them with honesty. I'm afraid I will continue to take govt statistics over union ones, but thats just me.

There's no doubt about the mining boom is absorbing workers, so why would we want to ban live exports on the basis of jobs? Penny knows she is on shaky ground when she has to pull out the cruelty card. Cruelty is certainly an important issue, but a particularly subjective one. The question I would ask is why seek to ban an Industry, when the same efforts could go toward improving the industry for the benefit of all animals. Then everyone could actually co-operate.

cheers

"Penny, last time I checked, the MLA budget for animal welfare was around the three million $ mark." (Yabby)

Would that be you again Yabby, manipulating the truth?

Do I recall reading that the MLA's welfare budget went towards animal research in Australia? Healthier sheep healthier profits eh?

Are you attempting to dupe us into believing that $3 million is being spent in the Middle East?

Are the chart of accounts and financials for MLA available on-line? Since it's a consortium, they should be. What about the bank statements? They would be extremely useful.

Perhaps you could verify your claims by giving us a link though you have always failed in that area, haven't you Yabby?

Mind you, I am quite capable of performing my own research, however, my worldly goods (including my computer) are to be packed up today for relocation.

I shall therefore be off-line for some time, though perhaps I can peruse this thread by accessing my temporary host's computer.

Continue with your wonderful endeavours girls.

This moving's no simple feat, but I shall return to OLO ASAP.

" It seems to me Dickie is the only one with the brains to pick up on the `link` I posted from the Enquiry into Abattoirs."

Dear God Dickie what will we do without you.= Best wishes for
your new location from all of us at pale RSPCA QLD.

"I will keep the enquiry answers for you until your return."
= I am away 14th to 22nd also.

Nicky said
I assume that when you have called Penny Suzanne you meant me, but I don't know why. -
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 6 January 2008 11:24:15 PM
Pale replies
No I meant Penny but your Nicky Arnt you?

What I can assure you is this= No it was not intentional.
I have no desire to upset well intended people working for animals.

See this is what your mobs problem is.

You always think the worst.
if your friends don’t like it. Tell them to get on here instead of using you as a lackey.


This is why waltz and all pale were the only ones to stick with the RSPCAQLD
Why on earth don’t you follow what Dickeys picked up on in the link on abattoir enquires.
You in particular could do a lot of good with that. Especially if you follow the links between ownership of some of the companies and business.

The Government stacked the cards towards the live trade working with their mates in the Industry. The results of that quite disgusting and deliberate shameful. Which is why I wanted you to listen to the problems because regardless of who was responsible its we must argue to Rudd too be changed.

We can’t argue the industry and put up a alternative proposal if we can’t understand and argue the meat industry.

However sadly that’s where you and I must part because like your friends to actually get in and be involved in reopening plants is out of the question isn’t it.

Well as you lot claim you are working to divert carcass to chilled pardon me if I find that some what hypocritical.

Nothing personal

Meant live to chilled

Dickiesaid

Did investigation ensue?

Palereplies
Person working for Australian Ambassador>

http://www.livexports.com/eyewitness.html

Dickie,

You still have AWB and others.

I thought yourself, Nicky, Penny, who is particularly good with research, might like to conduct your ` own.

We would make comments along the way.

However remember, No enquiry is going to get the Abattoirs reopened

“Only answer to STOP live animal trade.”

Your question further- Dickie


I will tell you like it was. Docs been shredded by now anyway.

If it helps you understand `our` position it might help animals down the track.

We arranged, Australia’s largest bust, of federal departments, to be raided simultaneously, in each State, at exactly, the same time, this country had ever seen. A hand picked operation with no possible leaks.

Bit more leg work had to be before that could be put into place.
[I won’t say which department]

Findings should have provided charges and a Royal Commission and a band on live exports pending the outcome.
In which time hopefully many plants would be underway= Abattoir plants

You will understand there was a great deal of background work we personally had to pay for.

We ran out of funds. 4 Corners were happy to reimburse but unable of course to be `directly involved.

So contacted President [at the time] AA.
It wasn’t a lot of money but we were broke having spent so much getting it thus far.


The President was fantastic and said yes straight away. There was only one other person she had to ask who said flatly No. The loan was for six weeks.

Let’s forget that now
I refer to your post on Abattoir Investigation.
http://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/hansard/hans35.nsf/NFS/947c9d2bdc1db86748257081002561f6

Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: I will come back to the Leader of the National Party


1. PALE Q= did the leader and deputy PM declare a conflict of Interest Here?

2. PALE Q=Does he deny MLA staff claims that he personally over saw ships loads of sheep from Australia to Kuwaiti and wouldn’t that be in direct conflict with Abattoir owners?

Dickie, my point was to Penny, who I understand is far better informed then you
are, so would have have a copy of the MLA annual report, with the exact figures.

As you are the most vocal and aggressive critic of farmers on OLO, could you
please go beyond wearing out your google bar, to obtain some accurate information.
There is nothing wrong with criticism, as long as its not due to ignorance,
as in your case. Make it informed for a change please.

So far nearly all your claimed manipulation, has shown to be you being badly
informed, or knowing little about the topic which you want to discuss. Relying
on Peta for information, is not going to do it for you. They seem to know as little
about sheep as you do.

Now surely you know one single farmer out of the 43’401 MLA members, who
can lend you a copy of his annual report, so that I don’t have to repeat this stuff
over and over and we can at least discuss this without your total lack of knowledge.

Page 31 discusses the on farm welfare programme, that’s 2.2 million $ this year.
Page 32 discusses livestock export welfare programme, that’s in fact 3.8 million$
this year.

No its not all spent in the ME, its spent in Indonesia as well, where our cattle go.
Another 30 restraining boxes are being rolled out there, so now 85% of cattle
in Indonesia are slaughtered this way. I guess cattle, due to their size, have
priority over sheep, but I see no good reason why as funds permit, a similar
programme could not be run in the ME for sheep. It would be a win-win all
round. These systems will stay in place for the future, whether our sheep
are there or not. I see all this as extremely positive for animals, but you girls
are so black and white with your agendas, you refuse to even think about these
things. That’s really sad.

Yabby

IMOP you’ve not been involved in the live trade as a life style.

How much of your attitude comes from being brain washed by the Industry out of desire to fit in with bigger players only you know.

The soul argument you managed to put up and dismissing all publics and RSPCA cries of protest as loonies has been what about the farmers who rely on live exports.

Yes you have a valid point if we were to leave all morals aside.

You claim the whole country is either on drugs.

Not saying that your arguments in today’s climate at times do not have merit.

After all that was the PLAN= to set it up this way from trade deals!

However Yabby really all you are confirming is our Australian Governments has no control and is unable to rule in the best interests of the Australian public due to their fear of standing up to the bullies within the Live Export Industry that they got into bed with.
You lie with mangy dogs and you catch fleas.

Rojo and Yabby= working on pales conspiracy theories
http://www.farmonline.com.au/news_daily.asp?ag_id=47778

PALE is standing by the Australian Beef Association and is demanding the MLA be replaced.

PALE has had this same type of lies and deception working with a our HKM work to create new abattoirs within Australia.

We call upon Mr. Rudd to dismantle this IMOP corrupt organization MLA and replace its whole structure in the interests of all Australians.

RP>

MLA Refuses Requests from Members to Public ally Release the Ernst and Young Report into Poll RortMLA managing director, David Palmer, has since refused ABA's requests to release the document.

Mr. Bellinger claims MLA paid $81,779 to Ernst & Young for their investigation.

"This poll rort by the MLA should have been made public 18 months ago so MLA members could have complete confidence that the company is transparent to the people that fund the organization," Mr. Bellinger said.

"The refusal to do so raises many questions of the MLA's integrity, the most obvious being - what is the MLA hiding?"

Yoo hoo. I'm still here but not for long.

Yabby

I advise that I have collated and typed up many Annual Reports. I did not request to view the glossy end of year sophistry from this industry . Why do you not respond to my request for the financials, the chart of accounts and the bank statements? After all this company cannot claim "Commercial in Confidence" since they have no competitors.

It again reveals that you have a flagrant disregard for the truth:

"Fact is that Australian farmers are the only ones doing anything about animal welfare in the ME. That helps all animals over there, not just Australian ones."

And what would that be Yabby?

Then:

"but I see no good reason why as funds permit, a similar
programme could not be run in the ME for sheep"

Therefore, there has been NO funding for the ME.

Ah Yabby, you fool, you remain on this thread simply because you are unable to fool the "big boys" with your rubbish, so you are forced to return to argue with the girls but the girls have the same contempt for you as others.

Your impotence in rationale is apparent in all the spurious arguments you arrogantly spruik on OLO as is indicated in the following link:

"Yabby

"Your pretending to address that post by avoiding the point & going on to repeat the same notion about saving incentives perfectly exemplifies the (aforementioned) technique of using someone else’s post as prop for pure repetition rather than a pretext for response."

Mr Smith
Posted by MrSmith, Monday, 7 January 2008 4:22:18 AM

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6697&page=0#102887

And another from "Daggett:"

"Yabby

"You have done here exactly what you always do.

"You simply restate, over and over again, the same
assertions, without any regard to earlier arguments
in response to those assertions. This serves no
useful purpose other than to bloat the size of
the discussion and waste the time of others who
wish to seriously discuss the issue at hand."

Such words of wisdom about this supercilious, puffed up parrot of piffle!

Au revoir!

PALE, now I am more confused than ever - is it I or Nicky or both of us who is accused of being a lackey, and if it is me, indulge me please - for whom am I a lackey? I do not belong to any animal welare group.

Rojo - thanks, and you too, Yabby, it's good to know I'm not the only one who is mystified here. Dickie, all the best with your move, and we hope you are back amongst us soon.

Rojo - sorry, but now we come to a bit of a parting of the ways - you say that you prefer to take the word of the government over the union (Yabby, did you also say that?) Given the information available about the government's blind support of this industry, I wouldn't be so sure, I'm afraid. I think MLA should have to come clean about precisely where this money is being spent on the welfare of animals exported live (cos it sure ain't in the Middle East! They know a lost cause (MiddleEast) when they see one). Also, how much of it has (really)been contributed by the government. I think that Dickie is probably right, you will find it has been mostly spent on research here. (although I am aware that some work has been done in SE Asia) to try to breed for animals who will stand up better to the rigours of this awful trade. (PALE - I don't think one more rort will lead to the dismantling of MLA, now matter how much your group "demands" it. Nor is it likely that Mark Vaile would declare a conflict of interest here. You would need irrefutable evidence and someone to present it).

BTW, Yabby, hsve you any comment to make on the WA Liberals' proposal to remove the ships from Fremantle in favour of Kwinanna (I think)? We can't have these lorries of suffering sheep, cattle and goats in the public eye as they have been for too much longer, I guess.

Hello all
Wow I cant read it all since I have been away but there is a lot of really good posts.
Yabby why is it that you feel so strongly about these animals
being sent alive.
I know that is how you feel but considering RSPCA have spent so much trying to get public support to stop it I dont see why we cant all work together to at least kill the poor things here.
Cant you imagine how frightend these animals would be?
Tell me is it your fear of not having a income or are you invested with a large company.
Cant you even discuss doing this another way?

I read some of that parliment enquiry link and all I can say it stinks.
To me its clear they held a gun to that abattoir owners head because they wanted it diverted to live exports.

What cruel people they must really be to do that to the family after over a hundred years of loyalty to Australia not to mention the animals.

Well look forward to posting more for a while as my time will allow me.

Penny, MLA publish various magazines for growers, discussing all sorts of things
that they do. From new machinery in automation, farming systems, pastures,
marketing campaigns, to what they are doing in the ME. Recently its been about
what the Dondons are doing there. Clearly money is being spent there. If people
want further breakdowns on what exactly which $ is spent, why don’t you ring MLA?

How do you know that the ME is a lost cause? Have you seen Dubai lately? You
make the same mistake many make. You try to understand them from your
perspective, not their perspective. If converting meatworks in Indonesia worked,
why can’t it work in the ME? I’ve been to the ME, I know how differently they
think to us. Nothing upsets them more then Western arrogance. Try that approach
and no matter what you do, you will fail. Arabs are very stubborn people and very
proud people, ignore those things are your peril. The Americans are learning all
this the hard way, as their boys go home in coffins every day and have been for
a few years now.

How do you know that sheep on lorries are suffering?

Dickie, I actually debate on OLO, as I find types like you hugely amusing.

I am not your servant and don’t dance to your tune. The financials are
part of the annual report. If you are too lazy to source your own, that’s not
my problem but yours. If you want to know more, ring MLA.

Point after point, I have defeated your arguments, yours usually from ignorance.
So you have been getting frustrated, the steam has been rising as the anger
soared :) So its been about abuse and ad hominem attacks to make yourself
feel better. That’s fine lol, when people get frustrated some become abusive,
its common human behaviour. You are not the first person to get angry when
their arguments of substance fail and its down to frustration. I’ve been
doing this stuff for a while now :)

Yabby, you have hit the nail on the head. Certainly in the Middle East they do not "think like us". Flogging a female rape victim in public (200 lashes is the average), burying her to her neck and stoning her to death would cause you some trouble here. Likewise a woman who shows (God forbid) her hair, or an ankle. So do you really think anyone has a hope of educating them to treat animals with the slightest degree of humanity? Give us some more detail beyond Nigel Brown and the Dundoons; after all, that's not the millions of dollars you describe, is it? That's why I reckon it is being swallowed up here, on issues like not sending southern bred cattle between May and October (but they do anyway because nothing happens to them when they breach the mandatory ALES).

Dubai has become a major international centre, and the others are mostly oil rich countries with far more money to spend on infrastructure than Australia does - which of course makes a lie out of the industry's claims that these poor, under-privileged souls do not have refrigeration. The fact that they already import so much frozen meat from Australia for their supermarkets and fast food outlets makes a lie out of the "religious" argument too. The fact that these countries on-sell animals to other countries suggests that they are laughing at Australia's naivete. Recent articles point to the authorities encouraging the masses to have their animals slaughtered in some of the appalling slaughterhouses we have seen.

What makes me think sheep (and cattle) on lorries are suffering? Cram the numbers of animals I've seen on the transporters in 35-40 degree heat and have them sitting waiting for loading and I will guarantee you that they are suffering. Do you leave your dog/s in your car? (No - I suspect you are one of the "dog on the back of the ute" types, another indefensible practice but popular with the macho wannabes)

TarynW - I couldn't agree more. Of course the animals are terrified. But exporters don't care about that.

One last thing, Yabby - I think Dickie is coming up with far more facts, and reasoned arguments, that CAN be verified than you are - sorry! Yours are about nothing beyond the profit motive and "motherhood statements" about how much you (believe) you know about sheep, and animals generally. And of course the sky falling in on WA if live exports were to end. And everyone is liberal with the truth except you. If reports about climate change and continuing drought are to be believed, and it seems that they are, you will all probably have to find yourselves something a bit more respectable to do anyway.

You are also inconsistent in your arguments, so desperate are you to justify your position. BTW, how old were the "lambs" you said you sent for the Hajj, and how many did you send?

Hi Penny
Well I think perhaps we might get more answers if we were a little more polite to each other if you dont mind my saying.
I honestly dont want to get you off side Penny but Yabby doesnt have to answer us especially when it involves his business.
I would be interested myself to be honest because i liked the idea of perhaps being able to arrange enough people to purchase them intead of them going over there.
I know its only a few but at least it would be some we saved.
At least I would feel I had achieved something if only to save a few.

Now as I said i hope I had not upset you because honestly each time I have come on OLO in the past I have been involved in arguments.
So I leave.
I love Animals just as much as you or any body on here.
I do understand on the other hand that farmers grow animals for food and I must accept that.

At least we are talking to a farmer and while ever we are taking there is always hope of finding new answers.

I just honestly dont know how long Yabby is going to contiune to talk to us if we are too demanding in the way we ask questions

I have read the last twenty or so posts and hope we can tone it down and respect one another a little more even if we dont agree.
Is that possible.

Penny, when I say govt I mean information gatherers on their behalf. What possible reason could they have to purposely under estimate workers in any industry. Statistics work in many ways, but either the data is right or it's wrong. No offence but I'd have to have some evidence to suggest that ABARE and the ABS has its figures
wrong.

http://www.abare.gov.au/publications_html/conference/conference_02/CP02_04.pdf

The AMIEU doesn't seem to publish meat worker numbers, nor member numbers, publicly at least. I have little choice but to use govt numbers but happy to see any other figures.

I don't know much about the MLA, other than it exists, and that some bright spark, now unemployed, decided to manipulate an NLIS survey. As I'm not an animal producer I don't get any reports from them.

Taryn, nicely said.

Yes Penny, some Arabs do follow their holy book literally. So do some Westerners.
Ever heard of the Bretheren? Was in not in the “civilised West” that they put
people in gas chambers by the millions? Get off your high horse to understand people and their cultures.

At the end of the day, the Koran says to be kind to animals and religion matters in
the ME. Not using this point to major advantage, to improve animal welfare in the
ME, is downright stupid.

Penny, there are pages of stuff published on the Middle East programme. I am limited
to a few words a day here. Why don’t you do some research for yourself, if you claim its all bollocks. MLA are making the claim, you show where their claims
are wrong.

35-40deg is quite common in summer in WA. We got up to 46 deg last summer. Sheep crowd together in sheep camps and sit there most of the day in
their own sheep poo. Some head for a shady tree, some don’t. Stop trying to
see a sheep’s world through your eyes, as you keep doing. You clearly know nothing
about sheep. I at least have 30 years worth of experience, observing them and learning
to understand them. If you girls want to go around destroying industries, the least you can do is start hiring people who know something about the species you are dealing with, rather then marketing and graphics people.

How do you know those sheep are terrified? Projecting your emotions onto them
once more are we? Sheep are quite content, as long as they are surrounded by
other sheep, which they are on trucks. Load them loosely and they will fall
around the place, that’s why they are not loaded loosely.

Where has Dickie shown that I distorted facts? On which points of substance has
she proved me wrong? Its just the normal abusive language of trying to shoot the
messenger, as she has no points of substance. Evil livestock farmers is about
what her slogans come down to.

TarynW/Pale

Yabby is a light-weight - a motor-mouth, who spends all his time arguing with girls on OLO.

He clearly has nothing better to do. Curiously, he insists that export sheep farmers are a hard-working lot - huh?)

Whatever one says to this misfit on OLO, will not make the slightest bit of difference to the live-export trade - you should realise that.

The endeavours of we who seek justice for these animals will go beyond OLO in 2008.

I shall continue to address this fiend in the manner I deem befitting for those beyond contempt.

This little man is incapable of presenting any audited figures for welfare expenditure in the ME or for anywhere else for that matter. Since he claims accreditation in his profession and an expert, bloated knowledge of his trade, what is he concealing?

"I’ve been doing this stuff for a while now:)" Oh bully for you Yabby.

Are cowpokes still awarded five star Hoppy badges?

This is the man who remains in denial over the insufferable sea journey, the often unbearable long transport by road for these dehydrated animals; the beatings and abuse and all the other contemptuous treatment these animals are subjected to at the hands of barbarians.

You may desire to "air-brush" the motives of this fool TarynW - I shall not. How does one "air-brush" sadism? In fact, should we not question why we even respond to this sociopath's inane ridiculous posts?

During the first half of 2008, I shall request from AA that I leave an email address at their office - for those here who can also verify their identity by phone number (your plotting will do you no good Yabby) so that we may directly discuss more fully our crusade to halt this abominable cruelty against other species.

Dickie
I am simple saying that others reading these posts who dont post might feel we are a bunch of radical nuts if we do not make our points in a civil manner.
If Yabby wishes to be rude then he will be judged by that also.
I suspect his real motives may be far more simple than you think.

To have endless personal insults logged on the internet directed towards farmers may play right into the live exports hands.
Dont you think that is possible.?

Please dont combine my name to pale in a post at the top Dickie.

I know it was to address both however if Robert sees it or one or two of the others I will be baned and so will pale from using OLO

That is what hapend before. I felt awful because they had just joined as members.

I note you are working with AA the same as Penny and Nicky
Please tell Lyn I think shes wonderful.

I am happy working with those I do and I think its time for a different approach. RSPCA QLD and PALE in conjuction have approached live exports in a different manner.

Thanks for the offer but there is a phone number and email address on the pale web site if you wish to contact me.

Just email that and I will leave my new email address for you.

I am a member of pale but I am not posting as pale. I me Taryn Winter just a person like yourself and Yabby.

Also I have a busy life and post from home when time allows.

To be honest I wish you were not working with them because from what I have read of your posts they are good.
AA are the most hated next to PETA of all farmer groups.
Surley that is not good for animals.
No I prefer pales efforts working with farmers and not against them.

Ah, more abuse and ad hominem attacks and no substance from dickie, this is
all so predictable :) BTW, MLA are audited by Ernst and Young, if you bother
to read the annual report, which contains the financials.

Penny, producing food is in fact a very reputable occupation. If there were none
in the shops tomorrow, you would realise just how much its valued by the public.
Most of the nation eats meat, even if you don’t. Not only that, but without farming
and mining, you would be living in a banana republic, so you have us to thank
for your cushy lifestyle in Australia.

Taryn, whilst I farm, I don’t depend on it for a living. But many do and I know
how hard they work. Frankly I’ve never come across a topic with as much
misinformation, conspiracy theories and slick marketing campaigns to justify
the views of a bunch of people with agendas, as this one.

I have no problem with anybody building meatworks, in fact I’ve encouraged that
all along. But I also know the value of the live export trade to the WA farming
industry and the difference it makes in reducing animal suffering, in say times
of drought etc. Nobody has yet offered a credible, alternate solution.

What happens on boats, trucks etc, is really up to qualified vets and livestock experts
to judge. A bunch of well meaning housewives might mean well, that does not
mean that their views are correct. That’s why we have experts in these fields.
Time after time, unqualified people try to understand livestock like sheep,
through their own eyes, rather then how the sheep might think and act.
You simply can’t do that without some experience about the species.

Atrocities, mistakes etc, happen in every industry.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s2131379.htm

What we have to separate in the live trade is fact from fiction. What happened
occasionally, what occurs regularly. etc. That needs qualified people, not people
who think that eating meat is evil.

Taryn
Welcome back.
[Pressi awaits you [small]

Dickie your still here. I am more than happy to work with you Dickie especially after your call. Animals need all the help we can get and it is only by attacking cruelty to animals in all ways and every way possible will we finally succeed.

Just because we have our own views doesnt mean we are right or that its the only way.

Actually the two distinct differences has enhanced our projects and served us well.

So Taryn although originally being outraged by pale being black listed it has actually served as a favour.

It must be said to that peta and Animals Australia have done some wonderful work over many years in all sorts of areas .

Things have certainly improved since Lyn White joined the team However we must remember a team is a team and I am told Glenyse is a walking book of information which no office may exsist as well as theirs does without.

RSPCA QLD have also a different attitude which is refreshing Dickie.
We walk together on World Day for Animals and if my memory serves me correct I think we carried their banners.

All working for the same end. A fair Go for Farm Animals.
Yabby
People have raised food for many years.
They are called farmers and I have a long line of them in my own family alone.
Our beef isnt with farmers- No not at all.
It isnt their fault if a evil Government conspired with the cruel live export agents such as Elders to mention one or AWB or Kerry Packer to dream up the most unthinkable act of sending Animals alive to third world countries.
They used lies to support their evil acts like saying there was no electricity while laughing their heads off because some of the Government actually beleived them that were not directly involved.
And they still use lies.

Shame on the Live Animal Agents and praise to the good farmers that refuse to send their stock alive!

Hello again TarynW. What is the car park? Who is Robert? Why was Pale banned? For what/by whom?

I'm rather nonplussed by your references to AA (Animals Australia?) and PETA though. Are we to despise them becaue (you say) the farmers do? Can you tell me please then if you think, for example, Chinese fur and bear bile farming, wild animals in circuses. rodeos, sow stalls, intensive (battery hen) farming, unnecessary and frivolous vivisection are all okay if the farmers say so?

Animals Australia is part of the NCCAW (as weak and pathetic as it is) advises in a number of areas of grave concern. I find their position papers excellent and suggest that farmers who despise them have something to hide. I would describe AA is "moderate".

Yabby, here are two references you might be interested in.
_________________________
Some aspects of farming practice seem strangely indifferent to the pain and distress caused to sheep. In the case of the tail-docking and castration of lambs, which are carried out without anaesthetic, it is known in advance that pain will be caused. The pain can be partly assessed by chemical measurements as well as by studying the lambs’ behaviour in detail. The level of cortisol (a stress hormone) in the lamb’s blood increases by 60% after tail-docking and 97% after castration. In Australia, Merino sheep are subjected to ‘mulesing’ (when the wool and skin around the sheep’s rear are cut off to reduce fly attack) without anaesthetic or pain relief. The levels of cortisol in the sheep’s blood are still high 24 hours later"

__________________________
"If an animal is not unconscious when its throat is cut, 'there is a period of consciousness which may last from thirty seconds to several minutes during which the animal must be in great pain and distress'. This would apply, for example, to slaughter according to religious traditions that require the animals not to be stunned before throat-cutting. FAWC stated: "Council considers that slaughter without pre-stunning is unacceptable..."

Fraser A F and Broom D M. Farm Animal Behaviour
and Welfare. 3rd edition. CABI Publishing (1997),
Ch2&3

Ah Penny, finally we might have some productive discussion for a change.

I actually put in an application to the State Govt, that various products
such as pinkeye ointments, Trisolfen and similar products which assist
animal welfare, should be available to professional farmers easily,
say at Landmark and Elders stores, similar to the way we purchase bullets.

Sadly the whole thing is bogged down between State and Federal laws.
I know a number of farmers quite happy to use Trisolfen, but it has been
a major drama to get hold of it, even for vets.

Tailing lambs in regards to pain, depends on your method. As to removal
of testicles, yup I agree, that causes some pain. Have pharmecutical
companies developed a product, easily available to farmers, for us to
use? Not so far. BTW, that is a global issue, not an Aussie issue.

In regards to cutting throats, I actually rang a vet about that just yesterday
for these reasons: We have hobby farmers all over Australia, many don’t
own guns. It is legal for them to cut sheeps throats to put them down.

But my question is this and it goes into neuroscience:

Sometimes when people stand up quickly, immediately they feel faint.
That is due to blood pressure lowering. If they faint, again that is low
blood pressure. When you faint, your brain still functions, but you
are unaware of anything.

Given the rapid speed of feeling faint when you stand up, when the
main artery to the brain is cut at the throat, just below the brain and
blood pressure is nil virtually immediately, how long does it take
to become unaware? The question is not if your brain is functioning,
if your heart is pumping, if legs are moving due to reflexes etc, but
the state of awareness to feel pain. Hopefully somebody in the
neuro scientific community can answer and I will be informed
and can let you know

Yabby, thanks so much for that, it was good information. And you're right - why are these things NOT available to you guys? I can't imagine how difficult it must be to castrate (or mules) an animal. I read your reference again on kosher slaughter as well. But neither of us is a medical/veterinary expert. I think these people honestly believe that their method is more humane. Who knows, except someone with knowledge of central nervous systems? Sometimes though, when people stand up suddenly and feel faint it could be low blood sugar too.

The problem is mainly, as I see it, with people who don't know what they're doing, people who lack the expertise, but there are people with electrical and captive bolt stunners like that too, I'm sure. Some reports of animals not being properly stunned and regaining consciousness after they have been "strung up" are simply horrific. From what I've been told it is particularly awful for/with pigs (perhaps PF can shed some light on that for us). The hobby farmers you refer to perhaps should only be allowed to use firearms and then only when they have demonstrated that they know what to do.

But the slaughter scenes we have all seen from the Middle East are still awful beyond nightmares, and I don't think anyone can deny that it happens, and that it is widespread. The issue is whether that culture will ever change, with all the good intentions in the world. Many reports have appeared in recent times about governments there discouraging individual slaughter and wanting slaughtering done in municipal slaughterhouses - which seem worse if anything. And at the end of the day - if you look at the "Five Freedoms", there is nothing more remote from that, and their "natural behaviours" than taking grazing animals, putting them on ships to places where there is nothing for them to graze on and where they are terrified, and handled and slaughtered so terribly. I take your point about temperatures, but there do seem to be indications that the animals suffer more there than here.

'Evening all
Isn't it great to see a bit of meaningful stuff happening here? Well done, Yabby and Penny.

Just by way of a short update, discussions with the AMIEU today would seem to indicate that they have certainly not been told to "back off" on live exports. They, and another source, believe that O'Brien was dumped because of his statements on Landline - it also has to do with capitalizing on the decline of the Nationals.

Yabby, coincidentally, I also found some references (European, in two parts):

"Long-distance transport for slaughter causes much unnecessary suffering to sheep, from bruising, trampling, handling stress, and long periods without food and water. Bruising shows up in the sheep
carcases; in abattoir surveys, 71% of carcases of lambs and 49% of carcases of ewes have been found to be bruised, because of the sheep climbing over each other or because they were pulled by their wool.

"Loading is an unfamiliar and stressful procedure for sheep and it increases lambs’ heart rate by 100%. Research at Bristol University Veterinary Department in the 1990s showed that lambs are over four times more likely to die during transport or in lairage if they have been bought through markets than if they have been bought directly from farmers,20 presumably because of the extra journeys and stress they have been subjected to. Stress caused by transport is known to make animals more susceptible to infection. Blood tests on lambs that had been collected from the hills or from markets and then transported to France a week later indicated they were suffering from tiredness and food deprivation. Sheep take some time to recover from the stress of transport. Lambs lie down more than normal even 24 hours after a long journey, presumably because they are still tired

"Full recovery from 14 hours of travel was found to take six days.20
The EU’s Scientific Committee on Animal Health and Animal Welfare believes that live animal transport should be avoided. The committee reported in 2002, after an exhaustive review of the scientific evidence that "some of the poorest welfare in transported animals is caused by bad treatment of animals during loading or unloading, by bad driving, or by lack of proper inspection" and concluded, "since loading and transport are stressful to animals unaccustomed to them, for these animals transport should be avoided wherever possible and journeys should be as short as possible".

Scientific Committee on Animal Health and Animal
Welfare. The welfare of animals during transport
(details for horses, pigs, sheep and cattle). March
2002. European Commission. Section 13,
Executive Summary

Sorry I had to do it in two parts. Yabby, I'd be really interested in your thoughts on this, because I understand that sheep (and cattle) are often transported from WA to the Eastern states (and possibly the reverse as well) and the journeys are largely unmonitored because they cross state and territory boundaries.

I believe that there is a current issue happening down in Tasmania arising out of the mortality report on the last live export shipment out of there - it was found, amongst other things, that Tasmanian sheep are not very well adapted to equatorial crossings, but what's happening is that they are being shipped/trucked to Portland and sent from there.

Nite all
Nicky

nicky said

Just by way of a short update, discussions with the AMIEU today would seem to indicate that they have certainly not been told to "back off" on live exports. They, and another source, believe that O'Brien was dumped because of his statements on Landline - it also has to do with capitalizing on the decline of the Nationals.

pale said

Pull the other leg it whistles
You dont honestly believe do you that the information was posted out to "all members or even branch leaders in a memo" to every man and his dog do you Nicky.!?

I can assure you 2005 2006 that certainly was the case. I see no reason especially since Rudd gave his public support for the Live trade and demonstrated his loyalty to the Industry being saying sweet bugger all at thhe AWB enquiry
Do you have any idea how politics work.

Yes with he National being weaker they may be having a bit more.

I dont post information like that unless I am sure of my facts.

The other thing is Nicky even if the person you spoke with by phone had knowledge they are hardly going to tell you I can asure you of that much.

ALP made their position known on live exports for the last twenty years and that hasnt changed.

They had ever given oportunity to say something dueing and after the Cormo and the AWB Enquiry. Instead Kevin Rudd said. " Quote" I wont be banning live exports' I understand these things" unquote'


For eg for years Howard didnt run Australia the people behind him and his party did like Packer and a few others with huge interests in live exports and of course the media amoung other companies.

Feel free to call anybody you wish trying to stir up trouble for pale penny because I am aware of certain calls made several years ago and the person who made them.

I will stand by what I said=
AMIEU were! told to back off live exports.
That is a fact!

Penny said

I don't think one more rort will lead to the dismantling of MLA, now matter how much your group "demands"

Pale replies

The alternative would be to do nothing which is unacceptable.

I stand corrected. I should have said HKM demands changes to MLA in support of the red meat industry.
Thanks for pointing that out.

Although Pale does have a slightly different reputation with the Government being known to be promoting reopening abattoirs and working with RSPCA QLD and Muslims.

The last thing that red meat industry needs is to be linked to any animal welfare groups that would be written off to the public as extremists by the Government and media.

We discussed the situation plus some other issues we have had with MLA ourselves today with Mr. Bellinger and hopefully with combined efforts we will get some answers

He was in particular delighted to receive a copy of the Senate Enquiry into Abattoirs I posted for you Dickie Nicky to see.
There is some very interesting material in that and it was kept very quite at the time. [Note the first question to Mark Vaile re Animal Welfare Groups]

I forwarded a copy of it to Lyn along with this.-
. http://www.livexports.com/eyewitness.html

I am just glad there are so many others from all angles working for animals. Its heart warming.

. Dawn low and Trish Brown in particular have achieved so much. I only wish we heard more direct from those people. Trish Brown was a great personal inspiration for me with her visit to a Halal plant all those years ago.

Penny said

Nor is it likely that Mark Vaile would declare a conflict of interest here. You would need irrefutable evidence and someone to present it).

Pale replies
Yup

Taryn look at the Senate Enquiry into Abattoirs= I can’t believe Suzzanne has ignored it.

Clearly a blatant move leaving hundreds without work in the meat industry to redirect to live!

Ooops meant Penny= sorry!

Well done Taryn I think Penny Nicky actually listened to you.

After all Yabby isn’t a live export agent. He didn’t make the rules.
Most codes of practice are only recommended codes of practice and unenforceable.. Then of course you have the fact that RSPCA have MOUs with DPI state Governments.DPI being the ones to inspect = or not to. Each state has different codes designed purposely.

Ah, Yabby I thought you at least may have liked to debate Senate Enquiry into Abattoirs in WA?.

Penny regarding bruising you are looking at another rort. Tax payers are paying for claims of bruising or death. Doesn’t do much to encourage good animal welfare now does it if you’re paid by the public for each beast who suffers unmercifully...

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:6qDZfeJ0zIwJ:www.ausmeat.com/Sales/pdf/OTH-A4.pdf+loss+of+payment+livestock+bruising&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au

http://www.mla.com.au/HeaderAndFooter/Glossary.htm

Penny said
The issue is whether that culture will ever change.
Pale
Last year I had a call from the head MLA guy living in ME. He said IHOP they are changing but it will take years. More people are buying from refrigerated shops and big supper markets. The others still prefer to go watch= they have these big plastic sheets up so you can look and watch the animal being killed.

Regardless of their supermarkets they still go live and are killed their to support their economy when we should be supporting Australia’s.

Penny
, look at the "Five Freedoms", there is nothing more remote from that, and their

Pale
No five freedoms there – not even for people.

The Government are not going to go against the industry.
So we either get in and do it ourselves or just listen to the sound of our own voices. Don’t worry Yabby once the Saudis start putting money in the Government will let skilled labor in.
Yabby the demands to turn Australia into a Islamic ritual country are certainly not new..
It’s all about power and controlling accreditations and bugger all to do with animal welfare. Wouldn’t you agree Ikabel Mohamed?

Well it good to see everybody being polite. Lets keep it that way Please!

nicky, some very good info. The way I see it, the sheep would be even more tired if they had to walk

Penny, true we don’t know about central nervous systems. That’s why I have asked
a Govt vet to find out. They have the capacity to search for references and question
those who do know in the field of neuroscience. We have to work with facts,
not guesswork.

As to the availability of animal welfare medications, now that is somewhere where
the animal welfare movement could actually play a role, as it should be national
and involve both State and Federal Govts. A huge number of farmers will use
these products, if they don’t have to jump through hoops to try and obtain them.

As to slaughtering sheep in the ME, are you aware that in Australia people
regularly slaughter their own meat and frankly it doesent look a hell of lot
different then what you are agonising about. Its not a pretty sight. They tie
their legs, cut their throats and chop em up with a knife. That’s the reality.
I am just the messenger, for I think you live in a different world, perhaps not
even aware as to what goes on in your own country. I’ve even seen instructions
in hobby farmer magazines, telling people exactly how to go about it.

If a hobby farmer doesen’t have a gun and perhaps for some reason the
authorities won’t issue him one, if he happens to run some sheep, how
can he put one out of its misery if he needs to? Just letting it suffer until
it dies is cruel, that can take days and that only applies to humans, as the
Catholic Church does not accept that we should be allowed to be put
out of our misery.

As to the ME, there are indeed some very sophisticated Arabs. But you
have to remember their history. It was only in 1937 that oil was
discovered in SA, only since the 70s that they really started to benefit
from it. Huge changes are going on there right now,
the young are rebelling and want change, yet the old insist on
the old ways, as the old often tend to-do

Nicky, I gather that there is an issue in Europe, with lambs being carted from
Britain to Spain etc. I have argued before that IMHO carting a sheep from WA
to Victoria is worse then a boat trip. The moment that
we have a hiccup in the live trade, due to supply and demand affecting the
market here, enormous numbers are trucked for thousands of km.

As to bruising, weight and grade are the most common sales method AFAIK
and in that case, bruised carcasses are rejected or trimmed accordingly and the
price largely reduced, the same with dog bites, grass seeds.

Your article mentions unloading and loading being problem areas and that would
certainly be the way I would judge it. There are now low stress handling courses
offered, which teach people to think from an animal’s point of view, rather then
their point of view, which is again and again the problem.

A lot of animal welfare issues come down to this and I gather that’s one of the
Dundon’s jobs, ie to teach people how Australian livestock differ in handling
to ME livestock, where they of course wander around the villages etc and
aren’t nervous about people.

As to stress, heart rates etc, it would be a question of degree. Rising heart rates
and some stress are part of quite normal behaviour. When the parrots divebomb
the lambs at one of my water troughs, the sheep first panic in terror, but then
soon learn. That is just normal animal behaviour, fight or flight response etc.

Yes, no doubt animals would lie down more after a long trip, to have a snooze
I presume, but then so would you or I.

With a lot of these things, we have to establish a bit of a cost/benefit ratio
and make judgements. I’m told that childbirth is pretty painful, yet women
seem to go back again and again for instance.

Some times we have to accept that there might be an ideal world, but also
a real world and we have to accept compromises in the shorter term, to-slowly
improve-things

fyi

"Posting drawings, information on slaughter later-"

The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils is the only organization in Australia which is represented in all the states of Australia.

AFIC- The only organization in Australia which provide trained and competent Halal personnel be it a Halal slaughterman, Halal checker or Halal supervisor. These Halal personnel are trained to communicate.

With the establishment of high standards and consumer confidence in AFIC certified Halal products, business organizations gain access to the vast marketing potential of Halal consumers on a global scale. AFIC recognition provides export opportunities to the global Halal market which is estimated to be in the vicinity of US$2.1 trillion dollars annually comprising of approximately 1.6 billion Halal consumers worldwide.

AFIC is the only single Islamic Halal Certifier that operates Nationally (all the States and Territories of Australia) for Halal Certification and endorsed by the following religious, government organizations and countries to certify Halal meat from anywhere in Australia:

The Muslim World League, responsible for Halal meat for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Appointed by the Jabatan Kemajuan Islam Malaysia (J.A.K.I.M) to certify Halal foods from Australia.

United Arab Emirates, General Secretariat of Municipalities (G.S.M).

Lembaga Pengkajian Pangan, Obat-obatan, dan Kosmetika Majelis Ulama Indonesia (L.P.P.O.M.- M.U.I).

Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura (M.U.I.S).

The Federation of Islamic Associations of New Zealand (F.I.A.N.Z).

The Fiji Muslim League (F.M.L).

The Islamic Food and Nutrition Council of America (I.F.A.N.C.A).

International Halal Industry Alliance (I.H.I).

World Halal Council (W.H.C).

Islamic Committee Office of Thailand (I.C.O.T).

Majelis Ulama Indonesia (M.U.I).

Including all the minor countries.

Accepted by all Muslim countries and Halal importing regions as a reputable Halal-certifying agency in Australia.

Our Halal Certificates are accepted by all Muslim countries and Halal importing regions as a reputable Halal-certifying agency in Australia;

Sultanate of Oman

Yemen Arab Republic

Syrian Arab Republic

Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan

Lebanese Republic

Arab Republic of Egypt

State of Kuwait

Kingdom of Morocco

Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya

Islamic Organization in Republic of Mauritius

Japan

Republic of Korea

People's Republic of China (PRC)

Republic of China (ROC)

All European Countries

Republic of South Afric

Hi all
Sometimes I wonder whether PALE's posts are done by totally separate people, or one person subject to dangerous mood disorders. PALE, you accused poor Penny of maligning you when I think you meant me - the reason for it remains unclear though. What phone calls, for God's sake?

We get one coherent post, then a whole lot of unintelligible stuff. We remain in the dark about this AWB stuff and in what way it is relevant.

Your claims about the AMIEU - as you yourself state - go back to 2005-2006. It is now 2008, and a totally different political landscape. How can my updating current information "cause trouble for PALE" for heavens sake? Get over yourself! For the record, I don't believe that what you say is true was the case in 2005-2006 either, but I'll let that rest. The rest of the information, about accreditation, didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know.

Yabby, thanks for your comment, will get back later.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky
I have been doing a lot of reading going right back to not only the threads while i was away but back to the thread done by Lyn white of Animals Australia ages ago.

I want you to know I am interested in helping animals not this continued shots all of you have taken at plae.
I do know that pale contacted all the Animal Welfare organisations about AWB and their contacts to live trade.
I know they did their hardest to have this raised and to get the truth out to the public.

I know this because I helped send emails and write letters to the Cole Enquiry Andrew Bartlett Kevin Rudd and lots of others.

I can say nobody was aware of the contact or if they were aware they certainly were not saying because I was the one that
got the job of sending the requested proof of the connection.

Now what I can see Penny Nicky is that you have purposely disrupted each and every thread pale has started.

You have no interest in doing anything other than posting the same figures which you copy off web sites.

It really is a bore and it is not helping Animals and that is all I am interested in .

This is why people stop reading threads.

pale and Yabby the only one posting new interesting things and not repeating themselves or quoting others web sites.

I I want to learn even if you do not.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Animal-campaigners-to-sue-McGauran/2007/11/08/1194329406076.html



I was wondering Yabby if you had any heard any news on Animals Australia and this media release put out in early November of last year.

Animals Australia are to sue Peter McGauran.

I know pale wasnt happy about all of the groups being branded extreme. It just doesnt seen fair to me.



I wonder who would be pay for costs especially if they were to lose and have costs sought against them?

I wonder if the members funds might be better used going to the Animals and putting aside their hurt pride.

To invite the media to this would be like lambs to the slaughter.

Perhaps AA should reconsider the many appeals from pale to become involved more with main stream projects to work with farmers and the re meat industry to reopen abattoirs in Australia.
Although I guess that not up to me and I am not sure if pale would want that now anyway.

I know Pale has had some experience with threats from AA lawyers themselves.
Is this all these people do threatend to sue everyone. Where does the money come from thats what I want to know and really so Peter called them extreme so what.

People have called me worse. It seems thin skinned touchy touchy to me but then who am I.

I Just find it hard to understand why he or they for that matter threatened to sue “ pale considering they know they are working for animals and absolutely nobody else.

I think it is important to remember that it is the animals that need us.
The last I looked extremist meant= a supporter of extreme views or practice.

So long as the Government can’t produce any written material to support his claims than I guess it might go ok but still isnt that going to make it harder for other animal groups to try to work with farmers and the authoritys?

It doesnt seem fair over one word to me.

Hi all
It seems that we have a disciple of PALE on board. TarynW, I think you will find that this thread was started by Penny, not PALE, and I have not been able to find any other threads that Penny has started or disrupted. It seems to me that PALE is far more guilty of repeating itself than are the rest of us, Yabby included. It also appears that PALE at least has an interest in, if it does not work for, this Halal Kind Meats, and whether that constritutes working "only for the animals" is therefore debatable.

If Animals Australia believes that it has grounds to sue that apology for a human being McGauran, that is its right, and if its members have an issue with that they will articulate it. I might add that PALE seems to expend much time, if not funds, at least threatening to sue anyone who disagrees with it. I repeat, Animals Australia could arguably be described as a "moderate" organization, and it has acted in an advisory capacity for the government on many issues.

It has yet to be disclosed what the problem is between AA and PALE. With regard to this AWB alleged link to live exports - what does it matter? What does it prove? Does it pave the way for any legal challenge (or any challenge at all)? If not, what is the point of pursuing it?

I am confident that information from the AMIEU is both accurate and current.

Now Yabby, I really do take on board what you said about long haul journeys between the East and West. I understood that Dr Jennifer Hood in WA was looking into it last year, but I haven't had any recent information about that. Hobby farmers such as you describe must often be the despair of farmers who know what they're doing; I know of several small flocks of sheep not far away from me, where the people are "absentee", and think that you can put sheep in a paddock, and they will just survive on their own (without water).

Nicky. re:AWB,
Through dogged persistence pale discovered that the AWB had bought Landmark from Wesfarmers. The trail was elusive and cunningly hidden behind the front page of Newspapers

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/29/1062050668560.html?from=storyrhs

The ABC was equally ambiguous: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2003/09/01/936621.htm

Pale broke the News right here on OLO approx 18mths or so ago. The secracy came as a bit of a surprise to me, because our local Landmark had put up big signs shortly after the purchase "Landmark an AWB company", and on the letter heads. Just between you and me, AWB had mentioned the deal in its Annual reports too.

Step 2 in pale's dicovery was that because Landmark is involved in the live export industry, then "obviously" money from live exports was propping up Saddam Hussein from AWB's oil for food fiasco. Apparently several letters were written to various political leaders informing them of the conspiracy and it's relevence to the Cole enquiry.

Unfortunately for pale, the last of AWB's contentious contracts predated the landmark deal by many months, and then the Iraq war began in March 2003. Bit hard to get your hands on Landmarks profits until you actually own it.

Anyway here is a rundown of the enquiry by the smh:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/deceit-by-the-truckload/2006/04/14/1144521506851.html

Rojo
Actually your wrong because that is when i was first involved with pale working in the office.
Lyn did not know wesfarmers were involved and thanked us. Wesfarmers then got cold feet as we made further enquires into the company and sold to AWB who were another interest altogether.

In 2004 around April both Downer and Vaile were contacted.
From there I am not saying because i was asked not to disclose anything that may be relied on later.

I was also in the office when pale President contacted Rudd Bartlett AA and Mark Peason regarding the fact this had not been made an issue out of at the AWB enquiry.

I remember very well the converstaion because I personally offered to travell to Sydney to organise a protest.

Now as for AA or Mark Pearson again I was the person who was told to send papers to him as proof as he said he could not believe it.

I did that and we waited to see if they wanted to join us outside the AWB enquiry but no they did nothing and said nothing like Rudd.
It was a missed oportunity for the Animals.

Nicky dont bother to adress me anymore. You ask what it all means.

It m,eans to me you havent got a clue what your doing thats what.
The poor Animals.
If you can not see this connection between AWB and the fact the public were not informed right in the middle of the AWB enquiry that the money that went to Saddam wasnt just wheat but live export money then I suggest despite your good intentions you may as well forget animal welfare.

I think it is safe enough for me to say I will not repond to you Suzzane anymore. Yes I also know who you are. and that your using both names.At least you learned something! I remember your rude manner from 2003 and you have not changed which is really sad both for you and the animals.

I will use my last post to say this to you. Posting your links only makes it more discusting that nobody caught on until pale who you all like to rubbish contacted everyone.
Ask yourself this Why was Rudd So quite. Why was Andrew Bartlett so quite about it. Come on he has media outlets and in facts posts on olo so he could have opended a thread and disclosed it at anytime.
The links you put up about landmark and companies are not something that Mr and Mrs average working housewife couples read on a daily basis.
That means nothing to the average public and you know it.
The main aim of you people is to stop pale and discredit pale. The reason is as we were warned out of shear ego and spite.

I have been a member of pale now since 2003 and i was first warned by RSPCA the type of nasty people that would try to stop our work.
You people are well known for your trouble making and nasty spiteful nature.
I have seen letters written to pale from people claiming their was no way they could be involved in helping to open abatoirs. Well this is Australia and people eat meat.
Personally! I hope pale are asked to attend this court case by the X Minister of agriculture.
I really think its time for some people to be pulled into line.
When you go after good people spending their own money to help animals you really get me off side.
Oh I have worked in many abattoirs by the way so i think I am slightly more qualified than most of you except maybe Yabby!
Goodnight and goodbye.
Now I am going to open another thread.
Please do not bother posting us you will get no reply from me. I am not as patient as the others!

Taryn

Please call office your mobile is not in service [it says]
BTW=presi- Your Coming With us- Merry Christmas!

To penny Nicky=

Whom I agree are same.

The title of this thread was Did Kevin Rudd Lie.

Having received from Kerry O’Brien’s advisor several phone calls which were quite unexpected pale had an interest in this thread.

That is despite it was rude of you to purposely leave both the other threads pale had already going which were working towards actually doing something.

You’re free to do as you wish but it does go so far to suggest your personality if not manners.

1 I note you have not signed the petition that we agreed pale would do in relation to that.

2 I note you have not even acknowledged it.

3 I note most of you have consistently denied in several threads that you work with Animals Australia.

I am pleased about that given pale supports Lyn White one hundred percent and your efforts how ever well intended do little for AA.

4 I am more than happy for Animals Australia to have any information we have and we often forward things of interest to them.


RSPCA and pale had similar issues with a lady with IMOP had mental health issues several years ago.

We have no interests to go there again.



Pale joined OLO full members to inform the public about RSPCA QLD PALES work with Muslim leaders Aboriginal Councils in joint efforts to find alternatives to live animal’s exports.

We are quite sincere in our efforts to improve Animal Welfare.

I refer to the above 1 to 4 at the top of this post and note your lack of interest and I might add our waste of time.

pale will not be responding to further comments from you and I will contact AA myself personally to set aside any concerns we may hold inferring you are representing their views.

Lyn White enjoys the full support of pale and that position will not change.

Pale wishes you well in your efforts to improve the life of many Animals.

Hi all
This paranoia has become so extreme that I think Penny will be sorry she ever started this thread. Some of your references to people who must have dared to disagres with you in the past (who they are is a complete mystery, and who cares, really) are clear manifestations of paranoia in the extreme. It's a pity really, because your intentions possibly are good. I have stated repeatedly that I am not a member of an animal welfare organization. I have also stated that the wording of your petition, and electronic petitions generally, are usually not accepted by Parliament, anyway. But PALE knows it all, of course, so go "knock yourselves out", as they say. PALE's opinion of me is a matter of supreme indifference.

Enquiries that I have made to a number of well-informed people, some of whom you name, have convinced me that PALE has no credibility with anyone, much less anyone who really is making a difference. Enquiries about what progress PALE has made in its years of operation have elicted no response from you, so I am left to asume that it is little more than hot air.

Penny, please accept my apologies for your well-intentioned thread being corrupted by the fact that PALE hates anyone who questions its extravagant claims (which it is unable to support with any substance). With regard to AWB, public indifference to the Cole enquiry was evident, so while the Australian community may deplore live exports, I think it has little interest in any relationship with AWB and live exports. That is just more hot air and blustering self-importance from PALE.

I hope that the mess PALE has made of a thread that was really starting to get somewhere has not discouraged you from contributing to OnLine Opinion. Perhaps those who have no interest in PALE's venomous, jealous and vindictive (and less than literate) rhetoric should just leave any threads once PALE (and its faithful disciple) starts posting there.

All the best
Nicky

THE RSPCA may have the answer for fed¬eral Labor politicians struggling to galv¬anise voters with the AWB bribery scandal.
The recent 60 Minutes program on Channel 9 revealing cruelty on Australian cattle in the Middle East hit a nerve.
Not that the RSPCA was surprised by the strong response from Australians outraged at endemic cruelty in the live export trade.
Many Australian voters may not give two hoots about $300 million in kickbacks to Saddam Hussein to sew up Australian wheat sales to Iraq. But it would be a different story if the AWB was ever linked to live exports.

The Gold Coast-based Halal Kind Meats is off to the backblocks of Queensland and West¬ern Australia to look for Australian slaughter¬ing opportunities. Dozens of Australian abatt¬oirs have closed since the live export trade boomed in the 1990s. Kindness to animals is part of the Australian 'fair go' tradition.
The temporary ban on the export of live cattle to Egypt over the 60 Minutes expose looks like a token gesture from a government committed to livestock exports.
Labor appears more concerned with the future of Australia's livestock trade overseas than banning the practice. Even noted animal

lover, HM The Queen, passed the buck back to Australia when asked to intervene.
Cattle rate No. 2 on live export numbers. Sheep are export kings. Those imperfect or injured ones not fed to the sharks or minced alive await their fate at Middle Eastern slaugh¬terhouses. Travel from farm to abattoir can take three months.
Animal welfare zealots reckon Australia's live export trade is 'a story of profit at any cost'. With six million sheep, 850 cattle and 100,000 goats shipped offshore each year there must be a juicy quid in the game for someone.

Why doesn't Labor home in on a Wesl Australian live export investigation which found the trade costs Australia $1.7 billion in local production plus $280 million in house¬hold income and up to 12,000 jobs?

The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils insists live exports are not necessary to comply with Muslim laws.
"That can be done in Australia under the Australian Government supervised Muslim Slaughter Program," said AFIC president Dr Ameer Ali. More than two million sheep were slaughtered in Australia last year for Middle Eastern markets and shipped frozen or chilled
THE Gold Coast BULLETIN, Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - Page 17

For those interested in livestock handling, how they think,
why etc, Temple Grandin is pretty well known for all this.

Here is her website.

http://www.grandin.com/index.html

Personally I have no interest in all the politics, I'd prefer
to discuss animal behaviour and what we can learn etc. Clearly
we all have lots to learn.

Hi Yabby
Thanks for that. I've read quite a lot of Grandin's material and it is a really worthwhile reference. Rojo, thanks to you too for your links and information.

Maybe what could be of interest to the Australian public who deplore live exports is the fact that Wesfarmers has bought the Coles/OfficeWorks chains, and already owned Bunnings (Hardware).

Cheers
Nicky

Yabby

You must be clairvoyant. Today we started a thread to discuss methods of slaughter and are just waiting on it to come through.

Once it is we will transfer your link to the other thread so not to be off topic on this one.

Ah, Yes Now you are talking. Something close to my heart. No we are not really into politics either just doing our job or grabbing every opportunity to highlight or put the spotlight back onto animal welfare.

If we trip over something we feel can be used to argue to slaughter here and support our position you will understand we will use it.

USA is going under and that will put the opportunity to play the live trade differently.
Halal is a trillion dollar industry and we have got to get it right.

Referring to your post she’s fantastic. I am just wondering why we can not at least enforce animal welfare codes nationally for our Australian plants.

I am curious as to what your opinion is on the most humane manner of slaughter?
Do you see the bolt as being more humane? Ask any abattoir worker or red meat bloke and he will tell you without a doubt?

Do you know anything about work started in Germany years ago to look at being able to Gas large Animals?

Others have argued differently of course. It’s not black and white either with Muslim people themselves. The more modern ones prefer Animals stunned.

Without fail every operator I have spoken with have put kosher as the number one cruelest method of all by hanging them upside down before death and often skinning them while still alive.

That’s not to say this has only happened in kosher plants.

If we can fly men to the moon surely we can find a more compassionate method.
Animals rendered unconscious by Gas are expectable as the animal is not brain dead so why are we not doing more to work on gassing of large animals like pigs.
Mind you plant operators say that is really bad also.

Whole things awful

Yabby
I said I wouldnt post here anymore and I wont after this very last coment.
However I was requested to post this to you.
I was asked to relay to this forum that wesfarmers no longer have any contacts or connections with live exports.

There are quite touchy about it to the point that all their Bunnings Staff were informed of their past involement and will assure customers they have no conection what so ever. I very wise business move.They would not hesitate to take steps to ensure we were not suggesting they were still involved.

In fact it was the best kept secret next to the AWB connnection considering the scop they used to be involved with.
No Actually theirs was even better kept secret.

They sold their interests in the live Animal Trade in August 2003.
There were however prior to that heavily involved.

There are companies all over the place for example that have direct links to live exports involved with Land Mark and Elders.

Some lead to banks and many to insurance compaines such as SGU were have St StGeorge bank operating as agents for them.

As yabby pointed out there are many companies that landmark and AWB are either directly or indirectly involved in but Bunnings and Wesfarmers should not be branded as being live exporters any more.

Well I hope that has clearned that up and goodnight.
See you I hope on the new thread.

Nicky, frankly the Australian public just don't know enough about
live exports and I don't think they are very interested. How many
people on OLO participate in the discussions? In the last elections
is was hardly an issue.

The reality is that AWB bought Landmark to add another string to
their bow, as they knew that their export monopoly could be lost.

Wesfarmers sold Landmark, as they have moved into all sorts of other
industries and Landmark was only a very small part of their business.

Even within Landmark, live exports are a tiny division. They simply
act as commission agents for their farmer clients. The fact that
Wesfarmers sold Landmark, was common knowledge for anyone involved
with things rural. Sorry, but my life is not built on conspiracy
theories, when things are common knowledge in the rural press.
If people don't read the rural press, thats their problem.

Frankly I think that the animal welfare industry should forget all
this politics and concentrate on animal welfare. I have been doing
a fair bit of research to inform myself and am discovering some
interesting things.

Everything I read, points to the fact that once blood pressure drops,
we become unconcious extremely rapidly. When the heart stops, boof,
thats it, we drop like a stone. If the main artery is cut, within
seconds we don't have a clue what is happening around us. Our
brainstem might still be active, but we just don't know about it.
it goes into neuroscience here, but it matters hugely.

To me all this basic science is really important and I'd like to
understand it more, not bog myself down in politics and in who
hates whom.

Yabby

Thread on slaughter is now open so will continue there to discuss methods.

Although your comment was directed to Nicky I would like to say we disagree.
The public may not be up on codes in house shop talk but they are aware of what live exports are and have over whelmingly spoken out against it.

The reason many don’t post on the threads is because it’s not kept on simple basis that all the public can understand. It is a matter of record on OLO by past threads that many public have placed comments. In fact it more than tripled other threads.

Kerry O’Brien said on land Line there is strong public concern for live exports.60 minutes alone did five separate segments on the cruel live animal trade “unprecedented’

ABC Land Line was just before the Federal Elections which goes back to the Bone Of this thread- Did Kevin Rudd Lie about Live Exports.?

After all Kerry was speaking on behalf of the pre election policy of a Rudd Government.

Live Exports certainly was a major issue with the public to force Kevin07s team to address the issue one week out before the election.

Please do not tell me you think the public are silly enough not to see through that .

ALP went on to say that as a Minister he has received more complaints from the public about Live Animal Exports mater than other.

RSPCA have longed campaigned for such brutal cruelty to cease and be diverted to chilled

Peter McGauran certainly didn’t disagree and I can say his advisor expressed the high public interests in it at a meeting on the Gold coast last year.

Re Wesfarmers
No you’re wrong. The reality is that companies must disclose all of their interests for investors and share holders and the department had no records or knowledge of wesfarmers having done so and they were informed they would have to disclose it.

Knowing some would be less than impressed and having concerns for the future within week’s weeks or our expressing concerns it was passed to AWB.

TBC

*Live Exports certainly was a major issue with the public to force Kevin07s team to address the issue one week out before the election.*

Gertrude, it might have been a major issue for you, it was raised
in respect to farming, for farmers, but it was hardly raised by
the mainstream press, certainly not once, that I am aware of.
There were just so many other issues.

Nope, the public don't understand the issue. Watching a 60 minutes
programme does not inform them about the industry, it gives them
a glimpse of where there were problems and am image that some
in the animal welfare lobby, are trying to project.

Every industry has problems.
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s2131379.htm

Yes, O'Brien had a great deal of correspondance, as there has been
a huge lobby effort by the veggie groups, to bombard politicians
with protests. Its a bit like the abortion debate. A relatively
small amount of people can make a huge amount of noise, through
their extreme lobbying efforts.

Continued Gerti

Yabby said

They ' Landmark’ simply act as commission agents for their farmer clients.

Pale replies

Yup= Landmark are middle men and shipping agents. The ones responsible for the cruel live animal trade with help of both the Australian morally corrupt Governments - you go that right. [Pays to advertise Yabbs]

Pale replies
I also read the rural press but most city people with kids and don’t.
That doesn’t mean they don’t care Yabby.As you appreciate and they rely on media but with conflicts of interests and ownership the live trade and intensive farming its rare a story slips through.

Yabby said

Sorry, but my life is not built on conspiracy.

Pale
Than I guess I was wrong in my theory that you were collecting info on who is causing the industry the most problems.

Although OLO itself is a marvelous way to collect data on personal peoples views.

BTW We hate "live Export Agents" for the record and that is shared between all posters regardless or personality clashes or anything else.
On that we stand united. Unfortunately It is political its very political sowe are forced to play that game. Like you I would much rather be building plants and fitting them out with the best possible equipment as close to place of origin as possible to comply with RSPCA recommendations
Oh, I forgot, you send them alive.

Well I would prefer to be in a position I could offer you much more to sell to us- And Yaby I will be one day!

Anyway for goodness sake there is so much more profit in Halal vegetables why you r with meat.

PS I corrected a spelling error for you-he, he,he,

Yabbysaid
Nope, the public don't understand the issue
Yes, O'Brien had a great deal of correspondence,

Pale replies
Umm well we had best inform them- shouldn’t we? I wonder if TV and full page newspaper ads might help. What do you think?

TBC

Continued
Gerti
Yabbysaid

Yes, O'Brien had a great deal of correspondence, as there has been
a huge lobby effort by the veggie groups, to bombard politicians
with protests. It’s a bit like the abortion debate.

Pale replies
No Kerry O’Brien said when giving his pre election policy on ABC Nation TV that he had more letters from the “public” objecting to the cruelty of animals involved in live animal trade than anything else.

Yabby Plenty loads of ordinary main stream meat eaters are members of Animal Welfare groups.
. A small percentage is veggies. The other percentages I have heard are also thinking of lodging a separate class action against Peter McGauran for misrepresentation of their position. Pale alone have had our own members far from happy and you could hardily blame them .For that matter he defamed us as well
Also remember Peter McGauran acted on evidence delivered to them by these people so what he on about?
It pretty rough when members of the public have to head off to ME to do the Governments job then SHAME them into action!
After saying that I would strongly encourage all groups to help pale reopen plants and as you said- Forget Politics.
So are you going to sell me that next lot of sheep or not?

Yo, just working, on your conspiracy theory Yabbs do you think some clever fool might have come up with the idea that if we turn Australia to a ritual slaughter country that people like me won’t have anything to protest about.
No I mean it really. Humor me here. You know what I am like. I just can’t help myself.
I mean they argue than animals are sent to a third world country that does not have our animal welfare standards as you know. So hey maybe ALP have decided to lower ours! Now that would solve a few problems for Landmark Elders AWB and the others wouldn’t it.
Yup
It could only happen with the Australian Government that’s for sure.

Hi all
The best information available is that O'Brien was not representing ALP policy on live exports at all, and what he said is a major reason for his being dumped by Rudd. He is to be commended for that stand, however - Hansard records indicate that he is one of the few who is not/was not able to turn a blind eye to this brutality any longer. But O'Brien himself was backing away from his Landline statements as the election got closer.

By dumping him, the Rudd fgovernment could not be held to any promises he made. And you will find that the only people he is listening to are the farmers' lobby groups and LiveCorp (so far).

As I understand it, McGauran had not even bothered to see the film footage from the most recent investigation when he spoke on Landline. Burke has been put in there to try to a) collect on the decline of the Nationals and b) to claw back farmers' support.

Did someone not point out not long ago that Tasmanian slaughterhouses were for sale? Why did PALE not expand its operations down there?

Whether the correspondencxe sent to O'Brien and McGauran was from "veggie groups" is arguable - given the sheer volume that O'Brien said he received (on this issue far more than any other, as was the case with the "7.30 Report" - it should be available at that website) - the material I have seen has been from the carnivorous members of the community as well.

And Yabby - until we have scientific evidence to the contrary, I think "veggie" people and carnivores alike will not tolerate slaughter without pre-stunning. The meat workers even came out and said they do not want to slaughter animals who have not been stunned.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky, the letters don't need to be from "veggie groups", but from
people lobbied to write by "veggie groups" The Catholics do
the same with abortion. They encourage members of the public to
write, after graphic photos etc. Emotional buttons are pushed
by people with agendas, is that not correct?

You see Nicky, I saw the nonsense that Peta put out over mulesing.
It was simply a distorion of the truth to shock. If you look at
their little video, its hoggets that are being mulesed. In 30
years, I've come across that one single time that I know of. But
it creates a graphic image, rather then showing what is standard
industry practise. Thats all I'm asking for. Unbiased information.
Is that so unreasonable?

As to stunning, I have no problem at all with it and yup they
should keep doing it. But I just think we need to understand
the science fully, so that we know what we are talking about
and have accurate information.

I've had huge arguments about this with Catholic pro life groups,
in regards to development of the human brain etc and at what stage
of fetal development it actually feels pain. This stuff matters.

So unbiased, accurate information by professionals is what I
am after. Then we can pass our judgements. Personaly I think
that is a reasonable stand to take.

Did someone not point out not long ago that Tasmanian slaughterhouses were for sale? Why did PALE not expand its operations down there?
Yabby
Can you please find out where what capasity still operating plant equipment price- well you know= The basics
Please.

Please please understand anybody seriously interested that type of Information would be required first.
Not to mention supply of stock
Are these operating.? So they have export licences?Are they Halal accredited? Or domestic. Or are they closed. If so for how long?
Small beasts such as sheep goats- Cattle? Is there someone to meet with Muslim reps from overseas to view the plants?
If you are for real and you email
www.halakindmeats.com
Or even get grant to call.[ Or anybody else for that matter.

The number is on the web site.

Yabby
Agree with you about the Catholics and their great debate.
I once read where Andrew Bartlett addressed them in regards to animal cruelty and he said= It would be very hard to inflict as much pain on something smaller than a grain of rice and unborn as it is the cruelty inflicted on animals in intensive farming and mal treatment.
Well I will leave you in peace and the thread was BTW Yabby= Did Kevin Rudd lie or in anyway set out to mislead the Australian Public before the elections with his chosen spokesperson and pre election policy?

You didnt ask me what Kery Obriens advisor said to me on the phone when he called Yabby regarding the live export situation.= Did you?
And here I was thinking you were interested in= truthful information.
Yabby the public "jammed" the talk back radio shows about live exports for goodness sake so why deny it.

I just dont understand you some times.

Hi all
I would imagine that it would be for a prospective buyer to contact these operations in Tasmania - known as Tasman Group, I believe. The last I heard anything about it, they were operating businesses, and reported to be halal accredited. They were at the time I read about it working three shifts. Best I can do from NSW.
Cheers
Nicky

Umm er, tar but its kind of not the way these people like to work to see their biz. No wonder why Yabby`s bolted.
I am not having a shot at you. I understand that you would not know . Theres a unspoken old school code.
Never mind.
Also unwise to give anybody involved in live exports that type of info.
I am `sure` it was done with the best of intention so `thanks`.
Here is the email address for anybody in the future `please.`

www.halakindmeats.com

Yabby- come back . How typically male you can be at times.

Hi whoever is still out there
As far as I know that information is a matter of public record. I had no difficulty finding it out from NSW, nor did associates in Victoria. It would certainly not be difficult to find out from whoever the selling agents are, for anyone how was interested. And given how such business deals usually operate, I would suggest that the first approach would have to come from a prospective buyer (not vice versa). That's business, in Australia. Anyway, I was just passing on what I've read.
Nicky.

Thanks Nicky
Look at the connections in the companies that were creditors in wa on that senate enquiry into abattoirs.
`Some` people may have mislead the enquiry
Away for 7 days
Meeting M leaders when I get back.If you email on the address I provided u may like to be there.

We are happy if u want to pay fare. but 'please' if u do want to come reply on the email address and not here. Likewise re abattoirs
tar.

If I were to email privately, it would disclose the anonymity of my business concerns, I'm afraid, and can't do it anyway. Sorry ...
Nicky

I am `sure` peta know you.

Be prepaired if you keep raising peta and others we have the right to respond.

What we give you is real information and 'nothing' is copied off others web sites.

Anybody posting on Animal Welfare is welcome.

Unless we suspect they are sent in to interupt, discredit by nitpicking.


btw= Your comment on the Halal and Kosher slaughter thread is a little misleading.

Fact is several of the same organisations have written a "very different reply" to us than your comments on the Halal thread when invited to meet with Muslim leaders to assist in the reopening of plants to faze out live exports.



We have written replies from 'several' saying = they could NEVER be involved in assisting to establish abattoirs reopening.

Dont you find that a tad conflicting.

Emails and messangers were sent out not to work with pale.

Maybe I am missing something here Nicky so why dont you tell us why we shouldnt find that somewhat odd.

You would `think` the more animal lovers the better.

Especially a new group with five or six lawyers on board giving up their valuable time.

Considering we offered to share Australias first MOU with the Muslim Leaders themselves to work united to improve animal welfare.

But no= they are not interested. How much of this is ego and how much political only a few know.


I mean they protest the live trade= and rightfully so= However pull up when given a oportunity to really make the difference by dealing with the problem instead of just complaining.

Worse still black list the only group with a project to really make the changes required.

Surely they know by now the Government are not going to listen.

The answer to live exports and intensive farming Nicky will always! be within the Industry itself.

Hugh Wirth once said= You cant sit down and talk to these people= You cant reason with them= because they `think` they walk on a higher moral ground that the rest of us.

"At least he got something right!".

Dear me. Paranoia rising. I think it's quite likely PETA does know about me, although in their scheme of things I'd be a pretty small player, I'm afraid. I don't recall copying anything from its website either,I merely stated the policy they, and Animals Australia, have detailed on their websites; that is, promoting a frozen carcass trade.

You keep saying that you have all this written material saying that other groups won't work with you - so let's see it. Perhaps there are other reasons why they choose not to work with you that are not related to policy or philosophy. You don't provide any background, just veiled secrecy and threats. You are the only person discredting PALE, from everything I have read.

I have asked repeatedly for more detail on the often cited achievements of PALE since its inception - how many of your "co-joint" (BTW, you should use one term or the other - one is redundant) are in operation, where, how many free-range farmers you have got on board with this strategy, but have yet to see any evidence beyond much talk about "Muslim leaders" supporting you. If you have the support of all these lawyers, why are they not takig up the case against slaughterhouses which break the law by slaughtering unstunned animals?

Do us all a favour, and don't respond with a diatribe of threats and venom, we're so over that. Show us some proof of PALE's success.

The people who are making a difference are Animals Australia's Lyn White, and the Live Export Shame people, who seem to have expanded to other states than WA, and present well-researched facts and figures.
Nicky

Nicky
I answered your questions.

Five in Melbourne, three new arragments in QLD for exports.

Two soon in NSW.= Thats plants and farms. Nowhere near enough.

You will get no argument from pale regarding Dawn and Trish Brown or Lyn but that wont fix it.

Its time to start doing the neccassary things. Its been reported to death.


ReYourself=Lets look at the petition re Rudd and Kery Obrien.

We waisted ages posting you but we ended up did the petition ourselves.

Zero Interest all of a sudden from you.

Nothing on the question time in Parliment despite us speaking with the Minister as promised.

We invited you to attend metings to discuss slaughter methods= The same= Your not interested.

The other work for intensive farms- Same thing.

Conclusion is that your main aim on here is to snipe at pale either for yourself - or perhaps somebody other than yourself.

Do you really want us to post those letters on OLO.

How would that help the good people trying to do their best.?

How would that help the animals.?

I note you have ignored the two posts on the Halal Kosher slaughter thread.

I said Nicky we are to meet with Muslim leaders again.

I would have thought it would be clear they "wouldnt post here until at least after that."

You know they cant win can they. If they come out and complain Kosher is cruel it will be seen as a attack on Jews.

Mean time people say oh those cruel Muslims.


If you were REALLY concerned about the animals you would have jumped at the chance to sit at the table with the Muslim Leaders and debated this along with ourselves.

The venum you speak of Nicky certainly doesnt come from pale.
We would rather give and educate.

You think your doing the right thing I suppose.

Its sad really.