"The bottom line seems to me to be that the farmers want the biggest "bang for their buck", which comes as no surprise."

So Penny, how much do they pay you an hour? Lets say 40k
a year, for 2000 hours, or 20$ an hour. What do you do for that?
At present, farmers selling locally in WA will have to provide
around 20 kg worth of meat for your 1 hour, or 1$ a kg. Sounds
fair to you? Are you worth 20 kg of meat an hour? The same
sheep on a floating feedlot, gaining weight, supervised by a
qualified vet, is worth around 2$ a kg of meat. Is it unreasonable
of farmers to expect 2$ for a kg of meat? If all this economic
value that you mention is there, why can't growers be paid 2$ for
a kg of meat?

If hogtying sheep and cutting their throats were illegal in Australia,
nearly the whole farming population would be in jail. Think again
and check your facts. Motherly love is great, but you do need to
be informed in today's world.

Senator O'Brien continued: "If it comes to the point where the Australian public do not accept that animal welfare concerns are properly being met, governments of any persuasion will be faced with a difficult decision and will probably be almost forced to shut it down."

Yes, I suppose the "probably be almost forced" could be construed by some as a promise. Such decisiveness. No wonder he was unceremoniously dumped.

The role of govt is to make sure laws are obeyed, and to make more stringent laws if need be. "Public concern" is easily manipulated and any decisions should be based on factual evidence, not emotion.

This link says 2500 jobs "lost" because of 6.6 million sheep live exported(2003) as the current figure is 4.2 million I'll for arguments sake assume the 2500 jobs will cover cattle exports too. This is lower than the 3000 jobs directly attributed the live export trade. If this is correct the argument on job losses as a result of the live export industry holds no weight.

http://www.liveexportshame.com/meat_union_release.htm

Perhaps they have an updated one for Nicky's claim of 40 000.

dickie, those 37000 odd sheep weren't going to live much longer anyway. Included in that figure are the shy feeders who won't eat, and aren't allowed to suffer starvation through on board euthanasia.

This equates to about 1% losses, compared with terrestrial feedlot losses up to 5%. http://www2.dpi.qld.gov.au/health/3548.html

I don't think feedlots have to kill shy feeders either, they are on-sold.

If being rational (or autonomous, or able to speak) is what permits us to deny direct moral status to animals, then we can likewise deny that status to any human that is not rational (or autonomous, able to speak, etc.)

This line of reasoning works for almost every property that has been thought to warrant our denying direct moral status to animals. Since the human marginal cases are beings whose abilities are equal to, if not less than the abilities of animals, any reason to keep animals out of the class of beings with direct moral status will keep the marginal cases out as well.

Penny

The ethics of that argument will be way over the head of those who profit from the misery of other species. There isn't any way to justify the cruelty this industry engages in and as the decaying carcass of Australia's morality rots, all laws enacted to protect animals from the dregs in our society are being violated.

I refuse, as a matter of conscience, to debate the profit margins with traders who prosper from the misery and despair of animals who cannot defend themselves from those who have descended into this realm of unconscionable depravity.

Dickie
I am sorry but you are wrong.

Look we were doing so well on the Kevin Rudd thread now we are back to this.

Do you really think the people involved in the live trade who act as middle men give a rats arse what you I or six thousand others say world wide.
I have news for you and its all bad.

Its been thrashed to death Dickie and the only ones who gained from that were so called Animal Welfare groups!

I have told you before dear kind lady its the Yabby`s we need to win over.

No good going on and crying and being an emotional mess and lashing out at those we hate who are involved.

Yabby is just teling it like it is.
Believe it or not hes doing us a great favour.

There just as much victims over a long period of time by a morally bankrupt Government as we are.

.

Now I can assure you its a case of sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me with the live agents!

Either we do it Yabbys way- For want of a better term- Or not all all.
So we impress Yabby and the other Yabbs involved in the Induistry by offering a better deal.

There is your answer and when you wish to get serious about working on the answers instead of the problem you know our number.

Yabby any idea what trade deals are worth on a large scale?
Your getting peanuts compaired with the middle man.
However I totally agree we musthave an alternative to match if not better the figures for farmers.
That is only reasonable and it is hard cold business we need to discuss.
Anybody who really cares about these animals will assist to kiil them here- If not your waisting your time- my time and everybody elses.
We can not say we wont discuss prices Yabby and expect to be taken seriously.

"I have news for you and its all bad." (Pale)

Pale. Please remember this:

(1) I do not run with the hares and hunt with hounds. In essence I do not have a leg in both camps

(2) Unlike yourself, Yabby and the other stakeholders peddling in the live exports, I have no pecuniary interest in this issue

(3) This "dear kind lady" does not shed tears nor is she an "emotional mess." You have seriously underestimated her and have made the same fatal mistake as "your" Yabby

(4) "its the Yabby`s we need to win over." Foolish girl Pale. This trader in misery will use you though agreed, you both have the same ulterior motive. However, "selfish success breeds a lonely success!"

(5) Your constant criticism of other animal welfare agencies affords you no favours

(6) And since your agency has been established since 2000, I can only assume that you have been an abject failure. As for me, I am merely an ill-informed new kid on the block, stumbling through a maze of official and private graft

And that Pale, is right up my alley! I will look forward to the challenge!

Therefore Pale, I bid you "adieu." Thank you for your often informative posts which have been most helpful and good luck.

Dickie

Please post a retraction of false claims that pale are involved with live exports.
I am not in a position to look the other way on that comment as it is upsetting to our members as well we work in conjunction with RSPCA QLD.

You remark is quite sue-able unwarranted and reckless