Penny, true we don’t know about central nervous systems. That’s why I have asked
a Govt vet to find out. They have the capacity to search for references and question
those who do know in the field of neuroscience. We have to work with facts,
not guesswork.

As to the availability of animal welfare medications, now that is somewhere where
the animal welfare movement could actually play a role, as it should be national
and involve both State and Federal Govts. A huge number of farmers will use
these products, if they don’t have to jump through hoops to try and obtain them.

As to slaughtering sheep in the ME, are you aware that in Australia people
regularly slaughter their own meat and frankly it doesent look a hell of lot
different then what you are agonising about. Its not a pretty sight. They tie
their legs, cut their throats and chop em up with a knife. That’s the reality.
I am just the messenger, for I think you live in a different world, perhaps not
even aware as to what goes on in your own country. I’ve even seen instructions
in hobby farmer magazines, telling people exactly how to go about it.

If a hobby farmer doesen’t have a gun and perhaps for some reason the
authorities won’t issue him one, if he happens to run some sheep, how
can he put one out of its misery if he needs to? Just letting it suffer until
it dies is cruel, that can take days and that only applies to humans, as the
Catholic Church does not accept that we should be allowed to be put
out of our misery.

As to the ME, there are indeed some very sophisticated Arabs. But you
have to remember their history. It was only in 1937 that oil was
discovered in SA, only since the 70s that they really started to benefit
from it. Huge changes are going on there right now,
the young are rebelling and want change, yet the old insist on
the old ways, as the old often tend to-do

Nicky, I gather that there is an issue in Europe, with lambs being carted from
Britain to Spain etc. I have argued before that IMHO carting a sheep from WA
to Victoria is worse then a boat trip. The moment that
we have a hiccup in the live trade, due to supply and demand affecting the
market here, enormous numbers are trucked for thousands of km.

As to bruising, weight and grade are the most common sales method AFAIK
and in that case, bruised carcasses are rejected or trimmed accordingly and the
price largely reduced, the same with dog bites, grass seeds.

Your article mentions unloading and loading being problem areas and that would
certainly be the way I would judge it. There are now low stress handling courses
offered, which teach people to think from an animal’s point of view, rather then
their point of view, which is again and again the problem.

A lot of animal welfare issues come down to this and I gather that’s one of the
Dundon’s jobs, ie to teach people how Australian livestock differ in handling
to ME livestock, where they of course wander around the villages etc and
aren’t nervous about people.

As to stress, heart rates etc, it would be a question of degree. Rising heart rates
and some stress are part of quite normal behaviour. When the parrots divebomb
the lambs at one of my water troughs, the sheep first panic in terror, but then
soon learn. That is just normal animal behaviour, fight or flight response etc.

Yes, no doubt animals would lie down more after a long trip, to have a snooze
I presume, but then so would you or I.

With a lot of these things, we have to establish a bit of a cost/benefit ratio
and make judgements. I’m told that childbirth is pretty painful, yet women
seem to go back again and again for instance.

Some times we have to accept that there might be an ideal world, but also
a real world and we have to accept compromises in the shorter term, to-slowly
improve-things

fyi

"Posting drawings, information on slaughter later-"

The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils is the only organization in Australia which is represented in all the states of Australia.

AFIC- The only organization in Australia which provide trained and competent Halal personnel be it a Halal slaughterman, Halal checker or Halal supervisor. These Halal personnel are trained to communicate.

With the establishment of high standards and consumer confidence in AFIC certified Halal products, business organizations gain access to the vast marketing potential of Halal consumers on a global scale. AFIC recognition provides export opportunities to the global Halal market which is estimated to be in the vicinity of US$2.1 trillion dollars annually comprising of approximately 1.6 billion Halal consumers worldwide.

AFIC is the only single Islamic Halal Certifier that operates Nationally (all the States and Territories of Australia) for Halal Certification and endorsed by the following religious, government organizations and countries to certify Halal meat from anywhere in Australia:

The Muslim World League, responsible for Halal meat for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Appointed by the Jabatan Kemajuan Islam Malaysia (J.A.K.I.M) to certify Halal foods from Australia.

United Arab Emirates, General Secretariat of Municipalities (G.S.M).

Lembaga Pengkajian Pangan, Obat-obatan, dan Kosmetika Majelis Ulama Indonesia (L.P.P.O.M.- M.U.I).

Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura (M.U.I.S).

The Federation of Islamic Associations of New Zealand (F.I.A.N.Z).

The Fiji Muslim League (F.M.L).

The Islamic Food and Nutrition Council of America (I.F.A.N.C.A).

International Halal Industry Alliance (I.H.I).

World Halal Council (W.H.C).

Islamic Committee Office of Thailand (I.C.O.T).

Majelis Ulama Indonesia (M.U.I).

Including all the minor countries.

Accepted by all Muslim countries and Halal importing regions as a reputable Halal-certifying agency in Australia.

Our Halal Certificates are accepted by all Muslim countries and Halal importing regions as a reputable Halal-certifying agency in Australia;

Sultanate of Oman

Yemen Arab Republic

Syrian Arab Republic

Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan

Lebanese Republic

Arab Republic of Egypt

State of Kuwait

Kingdom of Morocco

Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya

Islamic Organization in Republic of Mauritius

Japan

Republic of Korea

People's Republic of China (PRC)

Republic of China (ROC)

All European Countries

Republic of South Afric

Hi all
Sometimes I wonder whether PALE's posts are done by totally separate people, or one person subject to dangerous mood disorders. PALE, you accused poor Penny of maligning you when I think you meant me - the reason for it remains unclear though. What phone calls, for God's sake?

We get one coherent post, then a whole lot of unintelligible stuff. We remain in the dark about this AWB stuff and in what way it is relevant.

Your claims about the AMIEU - as you yourself state - go back to 2005-2006. It is now 2008, and a totally different political landscape. How can my updating current information "cause trouble for PALE" for heavens sake? Get over yourself! For the record, I don't believe that what you say is true was the case in 2005-2006 either, but I'll let that rest. The rest of the information, about accreditation, didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know.

Yabby, thanks for your comment, will get back later.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky
I have been doing a lot of reading going right back to not only the threads while i was away but back to the thread done by Lyn white of Animals Australia ages ago.

I want you to know I am interested in helping animals not this continued shots all of you have taken at plae.
I do know that pale contacted all the Animal Welfare organisations about AWB and their contacts to live trade.
I know they did their hardest to have this raised and to get the truth out to the public.

I know this because I helped send emails and write letters to the Cole Enquiry Andrew Bartlett Kevin Rudd and lots of others.

I can say nobody was aware of the contact or if they were aware they certainly were not saying because I was the one that
got the job of sending the requested proof of the connection.

Now what I can see Penny Nicky is that you have purposely disrupted each and every thread pale has started.

You have no interest in doing anything other than posting the same figures which you copy off web sites.

It really is a bore and it is not helping Animals and that is all I am interested in .

This is why people stop reading threads.

pale and Yabby the only one posting new interesting things and not repeating themselves or quoting others web sites.

I I want to learn even if you do not.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Animal-campaigners-to-sue-McGauran/2007/11/08/1194329406076.html



I was wondering Yabby if you had any heard any news on Animals Australia and this media release put out in early November of last year.

Animals Australia are to sue Peter McGauran.

I know pale wasnt happy about all of the groups being branded extreme. It just doesnt seen fair to me.



I wonder who would be pay for costs especially if they were to lose and have costs sought against them?

I wonder if the members funds might be better used going to the Animals and putting aside their hurt pride.

To invite the media to this would be like lambs to the slaughter.

Perhaps AA should reconsider the many appeals from pale to become involved more with main stream projects to work with farmers and the re meat industry to reopen abattoirs in Australia.
Although I guess that not up to me and I am not sure if pale would want that now anyway.

I know Pale has had some experience with threats from AA lawyers themselves.
Is this all these people do threatend to sue everyone. Where does the money come from thats what I want to know and really so Peter called them extreme so what.

People have called me worse. It seems thin skinned touchy touchy to me but then who am I.

I Just find it hard to understand why he or they for that matter threatened to sue “ pale considering they know they are working for animals and absolutely nobody else.

I think it is important to remember that it is the animals that need us.
The last I looked extremist meant= a supporter of extreme views or practice.

So long as the Government can’t produce any written material to support his claims than I guess it might go ok but still isnt that going to make it harder for other animal groups to try to work with farmers and the authoritys?

It doesnt seem fair over one word to me.