Yabby, you have hit the nail on the head. Certainly in the Middle East they do not "think like us". Flogging a female rape victim in public (200 lashes is the average), burying her to her neck and stoning her to death would cause you some trouble here. Likewise a woman who shows (God forbid) her hair, or an ankle. So do you really think anyone has a hope of educating them to treat animals with the slightest degree of humanity? Give us some more detail beyond Nigel Brown and the Dundoons; after all, that's not the millions of dollars you describe, is it? That's why I reckon it is being swallowed up here, on issues like not sending southern bred cattle between May and October (but they do anyway because nothing happens to them when they breach the mandatory ALES).

Dubai has become a major international centre, and the others are mostly oil rich countries with far more money to spend on infrastructure than Australia does - which of course makes a lie out of the industry's claims that these poor, under-privileged souls do not have refrigeration. The fact that they already import so much frozen meat from Australia for their supermarkets and fast food outlets makes a lie out of the "religious" argument too. The fact that these countries on-sell animals to other countries suggests that they are laughing at Australia's naivete. Recent articles point to the authorities encouraging the masses to have their animals slaughtered in some of the appalling slaughterhouses we have seen.

What makes me think sheep (and cattle) on lorries are suffering? Cram the numbers of animals I've seen on the transporters in 35-40 degree heat and have them sitting waiting for loading and I will guarantee you that they are suffering. Do you leave your dog/s in your car? (No - I suspect you are one of the "dog on the back of the ute" types, another indefensible practice but popular with the macho wannabes)

TarynW - I couldn't agree more. Of course the animals are terrified. But exporters don't care about that.

One last thing, Yabby - I think Dickie is coming up with far more facts, and reasoned arguments, that CAN be verified than you are - sorry! Yours are about nothing beyond the profit motive and "motherhood statements" about how much you (believe) you know about sheep, and animals generally. And of course the sky falling in on WA if live exports were to end. And everyone is liberal with the truth except you. If reports about climate change and continuing drought are to be believed, and it seems that they are, you will all probably have to find yourselves something a bit more respectable to do anyway.

You are also inconsistent in your arguments, so desperate are you to justify your position. BTW, how old were the "lambs" you said you sent for the Hajj, and how many did you send?

Hi Penny
Well I think perhaps we might get more answers if we were a little more polite to each other if you dont mind my saying.
I honestly dont want to get you off side Penny but Yabby doesnt have to answer us especially when it involves his business.
I would be interested myself to be honest because i liked the idea of perhaps being able to arrange enough people to purchase them intead of them going over there.
I know its only a few but at least it would be some we saved.
At least I would feel I had achieved something if only to save a few.

Now as I said i hope I had not upset you because honestly each time I have come on OLO in the past I have been involved in arguments.
So I leave.
I love Animals just as much as you or any body on here.
I do understand on the other hand that farmers grow animals for food and I must accept that.

At least we are talking to a farmer and while ever we are taking there is always hope of finding new answers.

I just honestly dont know how long Yabby is going to contiune to talk to us if we are too demanding in the way we ask questions

I have read the last twenty or so posts and hope we can tone it down and respect one another a little more even if we dont agree.
Is that possible.

Penny, when I say govt I mean information gatherers on their behalf. What possible reason could they have to purposely under estimate workers in any industry. Statistics work in many ways, but either the data is right or it's wrong. No offence but I'd have to have some evidence to suggest that ABARE and the ABS has its figures
wrong.

http://www.abare.gov.au/publications_html/conference/conference_02/CP02_04.pdf

The AMIEU doesn't seem to publish meat worker numbers, nor member numbers, publicly at least. I have little choice but to use govt numbers but happy to see any other figures.

I don't know much about the MLA, other than it exists, and that some bright spark, now unemployed, decided to manipulate an NLIS survey. As I'm not an animal producer I don't get any reports from them.

Taryn, nicely said.

Yes Penny, some Arabs do follow their holy book literally. So do some Westerners.
Ever heard of the Bretheren? Was in not in the “civilised West” that they put
people in gas chambers by the millions? Get off your high horse to understand people and their cultures.

At the end of the day, the Koran says to be kind to animals and religion matters in
the ME. Not using this point to major advantage, to improve animal welfare in the
ME, is downright stupid.

Penny, there are pages of stuff published on the Middle East programme. I am limited
to a few words a day here. Why don’t you do some research for yourself, if you claim its all bollocks. MLA are making the claim, you show where their claims
are wrong.

35-40deg is quite common in summer in WA. We got up to 46 deg last summer. Sheep crowd together in sheep camps and sit there most of the day in
their own sheep poo. Some head for a shady tree, some don’t. Stop trying to
see a sheep’s world through your eyes, as you keep doing. You clearly know nothing
about sheep. I at least have 30 years worth of experience, observing them and learning
to understand them. If you girls want to go around destroying industries, the least you can do is start hiring people who know something about the species you are dealing with, rather then marketing and graphics people.

How do you know those sheep are terrified? Projecting your emotions onto them
once more are we? Sheep are quite content, as long as they are surrounded by
other sheep, which they are on trucks. Load them loosely and they will fall
around the place, that’s why they are not loaded loosely.

Where has Dickie shown that I distorted facts? On which points of substance has
she proved me wrong? Its just the normal abusive language of trying to shoot the
messenger, as she has no points of substance. Evil livestock farmers is about
what her slogans come down to.

TarynW/Pale

Yabby is a light-weight - a motor-mouth, who spends all his time arguing with girls on OLO.

He clearly has nothing better to do. Curiously, he insists that export sheep farmers are a hard-working lot - huh?)

Whatever one says to this misfit on OLO, will not make the slightest bit of difference to the live-export trade - you should realise that.

The endeavours of we who seek justice for these animals will go beyond OLO in 2008.

I shall continue to address this fiend in the manner I deem befitting for those beyond contempt.

This little man is incapable of presenting any audited figures for welfare expenditure in the ME or for anywhere else for that matter. Since he claims accreditation in his profession and an expert, bloated knowledge of his trade, what is he concealing?

"I’ve been doing this stuff for a while now:)" Oh bully for you Yabby.

Are cowpokes still awarded five star Hoppy badges?

This is the man who remains in denial over the insufferable sea journey, the often unbearable long transport by road for these dehydrated animals; the beatings and abuse and all the other contemptuous treatment these animals are subjected to at the hands of barbarians.

You may desire to "air-brush" the motives of this fool TarynW - I shall not. How does one "air-brush" sadism? In fact, should we not question why we even respond to this sociopath's inane ridiculous posts?

During the first half of 2008, I shall request from AA that I leave an email address at their office - for those here who can also verify their identity by phone number (your plotting will do you no good Yabby) so that we may directly discuss more fully our crusade to halt this abominable cruelty against other species.