Err dickie, old age and the buzzards circling must be starting
to affect you :)

I remind you that the ABS sends nobody out on the 30/6 to count
sheep, so these figures are rough estimates. Given the
number of WA farmers selling up their flocks to grow more
crops, we could well be below 85 million by now. I've seen
others claim its actually a high estimate anyhow.

But pedantic you will be, focussing on every detail, rather
then have the ability to look at the big picture.

Perhaps you should go back to bed, then get out the other side,
your mood might improve :)

.

Next point 90/91 is in fact early 90s. Again these figures
were rough estimates, not counting to the last sheep. They
could well be 2-3 million up or down, nobody counts that
accurately.

So my 50% figure is correct, even if it were 49 or 51, it
really would not matter. My point remains, you can argue
over the trivia, as is your nature.

Dickie

Your on the right track now. Well done!
Go get them!

http://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/hansard/hans35.nsf/NFS/947c9d2bdc1db86748257081002561f6

House: Legislative Assembly
Date: Wednesday, 17 August 2005

Subject: ABATTOIR INDUSTRY, INQUIRY

ABATTOIR INDUSTRY, INQUIRY
MotionMotion

MR P.D. OMODEI (Warren-Blackwood - Deputy Leader of the Opposition) [5.01 pm]: I move -

(1) That this house calls on the government to conduct an inquiry into the abattoir industry in Western Australia, and in particular -
(a) the reasons for the closure of Harvey Beef;

(b) the location of current abattoirs;

(c) potential sites for new abattoirs;

(d) identify current abattoirs and their classification;

(e) future sites suitable for international accreditation; and

(f) whether government should provide incentives for new abattoirs or upgrading or relocation of current abattoirs,

and any other matter pertaining to domestic and export abattoirs which inhibits their development and existence.

(2) That the matter be referred to the Economics and Industry Standing Committee.

(3) That the government take action on any matter relating to the continuation of a viable beef industry while the committee inquires into this matter.

This is a really important issue. The last part of the motion states -

That the government take action on any matter relating to the continuation of a viable beef industry while the committee inquires into this matter.

I moved that quite deliberately so that the government will not be tardy in its response to these very important issues and does not refer matters to the standing committee in a way that would delay the committee’s deliberations. However, the committee aside, one of the main reasons for my moving this motion and for the urgency of the motion is, of course, the closure of Harvey Beef. I want to impress on all members of the house, in particular government members and ministers, that the closure of Harvey Beef pending its negotiations with its financiers, the National Australia Bank, AWB Landmark and Elders, the stock agents, is an issue that could cause irreparable damage to the beef industry in Western Australia should it take longer than one week.

Thanks Pale, did an investigation ensue?

"Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: I will come back to the Leader of the National Party. That will ensure that our farmers have a continued livelihood, and there will not be the clashes that we currently see between some groups in the community, which say that the sheep trade should be banned.

"Mr G. Snook: They don’t know what they’re talking about.

"Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: They see the trucks go through and they see videos of different things that are happening. I believe that that movement would be right behind this Parliament if it thought that an inquiry was being conducted to help develop more abattoirs in WA, with the prospect of acquiring markets throughout the world in the future, thereby creating more prosperity for our farmers. I will take the Leader of the National Party’s interjection.

"Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: I appreciate what the member for Merredin is saying. Twenty years ago I worked in the Middle East for almost two years. We are very much the poor relations of some of those countries in the Middle East. They could have the facilities there tomorrow. They say that they do not have these facilities. However, when we see the income that goes into those countries, it is clear that they could very easily set up the frozen food warehouses, or whatever they are called. This is not my area, so I am not sure what they are called.

Grylls: The processors in the Middle East want to buy the beef live because that is where they make their money.

"Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: A lot of people in the Middle East do make their money from that. In particular, the sheep that go over there are used for sacrificial purposes. However, I wonder whether the number of sheep that go to the Middle East need to go there. With this investigation and these inquiries, hopefully we will be able to encourage the government to look for more markets overseas that will accept frozen meat from Australia.

Note: Two responses from Grylls eliminated due to word limit.

For Yabby and Rojo (and others) here is the source of the figures I quoted:-

8 November 2007

The following is an extract from a press release from the Meat Worker’s union, voicing their opposition to the live animal export trade:

"Our organisation who represent meat processing industry workers, congratulates Lyons MHR Dick Adams and Senator Kerry O'Brien for standing up for Meat Workers Jobs. This policy also reflects the concerns of the wider community in relation to animal welfare standards.

(Paragraph about 1985 Senate Select Committee and Liberal candidate for the seat of Lyons deleted due to space constraints)

"Thanks to a hostile Senate at the time, that outcome was ignored and over the last 20 years some 150 meat processing plants have closed with 40 000 meat workers, either stood down indefinitely or made redundant through out Australia. This has occurred as a direct result of livestock shortages due to the increase in live animal exports.

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/news/?article=65

The press release was written by Grant Courtney, who is the State Secretary of the AMIEU in Tasmania.

Pale, I don't know about Nicky, but I find your post on page 13 confusing (perhaps Nicky is better informed than I am). I looked at the references (Halal Kind Meats - and where did the awful music come from?) and I'm wondering whether Pale has a conflict of interest since at least some of the principals appear to be common to both Pale and HKM. That could be the reason why other animal welfare groups have not wanted to get involved. They probably believe that your way is NOT the only way, and yours is a strategy they choose not to follow, as is their right. They possibly feel that you have vested interests through the HKM connection.

I heard too that slaughterhouses in Tasmania were for sale recently, why did you not take up an option there?

Nicky, Tom Hannan, so far as I know, has been retired for some time, and I'm told that Graeme Haynes (WA) and Grant Courtney (Tasmania)are the ones with the up to date information.

PF, like Dickie, my criticisms are not directed to farmers of the holistic persuasion, and who take responsibility for their impact upon the environment.

Pale, have you thought about why your HKM venture has not taken off as you obviously expected? You seem to want to lay a lot of blame on anyone who does not agree with your position - be it Nicky, Andrew Bartlett, Animals Australia or PETA. I think if you thoroughly research all the latter three you will find that they actively promote a chilled meat trade in place of live exports (see www.savethesheep.com for PETA's position papers, you are probably familiar with the other sources). You make extravagant and derisory claims about "vegie groups" when the membership of those groups would mostly comprise non-vegetarians. They could not afford to operate if they placed such narrow restrictions on their entire membership.

It is still my belief that this is a matter of politics. Yabby, you are correct in saying that Australia also exports cars to the Middle East (BTW, I drive an Australian manufactured car). My personal opinion is that there SHOULD be limits placed on imports, given Australia's trade deficit. The car industry in Australia has also been decimated, along with the textile, clothing and footwear industry.

But cars are not living animals, (leaving aside the value-adding components) and the AMIEU media release I posted in part before is quite clear about the repercussions of what you do on the meat industry and those who depend on it. Why are they less important than farmers making a fast buck? Quite frankly, farmers get far more support than anyone else in the community, and in the business world where you have to compete in your environment or go under. Not farmers; they just get more handouts from the government (sorry, PF, I am not necessarily including you in that)

Penny I am sure that unions say all sorts of things, to justify their role. How
accurate they are, is another question. Even you can crunch a few numbers,
so I’ll give you the basics. It takes around 300 workers to kill a million
sheep a year.

Sadly even that is too many, as wages are still the largest cost of running
a meatworks. It now costs more to put a sheep down a chain, then is
often paid to the grower.

When the union has been challenged in WA, as to where all the workers
are, their response seems to be that they would appear if much higher
wages were paid.

Mr Fletcher will tell you that mutton has to compete with cheap chicken
and beef from Brazil etc. Most mutton is sold in the third world, so price
is the driving factor. So to pay workers far more, would mean farmers
just about having to give them the sheep for free. As we can show,
with a drop of 85 million in Australian sheep numbers, lack of
profitability has been the biggest factor in reducing the meat industry
on the East coast. Most years about a million sheep come from the
East that go on boats, that’s about 300 workers.

NZ is a bit of a different story. They have a huge quote to sell in
to the EU market, about 260k tonnes compared to our 16k tonnes.
In that market, prices are quite a bit higher. But even now, NZ farmers
are baling out of lamb production and into intensive dairy farming,
as Aus and NZ meatworks have been out discounting one another
in world markets, to the sheep industry farmers losses.

The answer to all these problems IMHO will be large scale automation,
to solve the labour problem. That is being examined right now by the
industry. Only a month or so ago, there was a large conference in
Sydney, IIRC. One problem is that whilst there are some amazing
automation solutions, they have not yet been adapted to the sheep
industry.