Hi all
First to Yabby's totally naive acceptance of "Countryman" articles on face value. Yabby, why is it, do you think, that reporters are only allowed near the "Becrux"? For what sector do those reporters (I wouldn't dignify them with the term "journalist") write? To put it simply, who pays their wages? On that basis, what else are they going to say? They are THERE to justify the unjustifiable. You are relating to single sources who are in the pockets of farmers/farming lobby groups/MLA/LiveCorp, with your usual typical myopic interpretations. You NEVER effectively address the brutality of the handling and slaughter with objective studies or information, merely quoting from the propaganda gospel.

PALE, I am really at a loss about how to address your paranoia. Dickie, so far as I can remember, has expressed no affiliation with any known animal groups. I as an individual have no affiliations either, yet you attribute all sorts of associations to us, simply because we do not want to be part of your slaughtering activities which you claim will be the "salvation" of animals. Can you not see the conflict there? I am assuming that the other organizations do not want to be profiteering from slaughter and that is how they may view your involvement with HKM - who knows?

As for FGM, you were highly indignant when I criticised the practice, accusing me of in some way offending Muslims; what other interpretation is there for that? You do bring these things upon yourself, I'm afraid. People do not withdraw from their considered positions because PALE demands that they do - and you ARE the only contributor who offers both overt and covert threats against anyone who disagrees with you. Those are the sorts of reasons, I suspect, that no-one is prepared to work with you, although I am not in the confidence of these groups.

Conversely, I talk to people from many sectors, and research my positions on various things, whereas you seem to have no-one left who will talk with you.

Nicky

Nicky, farming is made up of all sorts of people, with lots of
rational debate going on and many opinions. The rural press
expresses these. They even publish letters to the editor from
you lot, plus adverts from AA etc.

The job of a good journalist is to list the facts from both sides
of the argument and discuss them. That happens in the farming press
all the time.

Cameron Morse took a trip and went on to inform what steps are taken,
who does what etc. What in his articles was a lie? So far you
have not named anything! I have asked you before.

The animal liberation movement is more like the Taliban, pure
ideology dominates rational debate. Very sad really.

But what that means is that I have far more confidence in somebody
like Morse, who I have noticed discusses both sides of arguments,
unlike say yourself, who is totally one eyed.

Your posts on OLO say it all. True, Morse has never called farmers
parasites, savages or barbarians. It is members of the animal
Taliban who specialise in those sorts of comments.

I prefer to stick to rational debate.

Nicky, you would call anything "brutal". You see a sheep with its
leg stuck out of a truck and call it "brutal". What a load of
crapola!

Nicky

It would seem to me that it’s your paranoia against others making any other suggestion how to improve Animal Welfare.

For the record your friend’s utter dislike of us started well before HKM was even thought of.

When I spoke to Chris Parker about live exports he suggested we contact AA we did this and offered them a free office to assist them.

I made the mistake of mentioning we have written to see a meeting with Andrew who like us is Brisbane.

I was really stunned by the utter aggressive reply that and I will quote!

“ While quite frankly if you want anything it will have to go through me- because Andrew won’t work with you.”

That was well before HKM when we started pale

Back then the reason was given ( unofficially ) because we were working with RSPCA QLD-

We spent two years trying to convince others that working with instead of against RSPCA were the only way to go.

It would seem that message finally did sink in.

You’re a tad rich to jump down our throats for posting the facts

Now regarding HKM NOBODY asked them to be involved in establishing plants or abattoirs!

They WERE invited to join us with Muslim Leaders to discuss Gas, methods, and Live Exports.

Something they claim to be interested in. We didn’t have to share our contacts and programs with them but we wanted to for the Animals.

Nicky said
Conversely, I talk to people
...
Pale replies.
Nicky then why is it you like your friends have refused to talk to us re the gas or the Slaughtering methods under our MOU with AFIC.

Because if you don’t know what’s happening in the Halal World you don’t have a clue what you’re doing.

However that comment simply confirms what I said = that you talk to everybody but like them knocked back an invitation to join us with our presentation to Congress.

Frankly we are too busy to get involved in your girls game of bitching about PALE.

Dear Yabby and PALE
Yabby, the "rural press", of which Cameron Morse is a part, is not capable of expressing an animal welfare perspective in any terms that might cost dollars other than those of the taxpayer, so I can pretty much dispense with your comment there, other than saying that you are getting awfully histrionic with your references to an "animal Taliban". I suggest you read a bit about the Taliban.

PALE, I have no idea who Chris Parker is, nor do I have any idea why "my friends" - assuming you are referring to Animals Australia - have refused to work with you. Andrew Bartlett likewise; I am not in their confidence. I only know why I won't, and I have stated my case so often that I'm really bored with that argument. You might want to ask yourself why it is that Animals Australia, not PALE, is the organization which participates in animal welfare debate at the national consulting level though. It could have to do with levels of professional expertise and knowledge, and it could have to do with the way the two organizations, AA and PALE, conduct themselves. There is certainly a world of difference there. I suspect what it does NOT have to do with is anything to do with "working with RSPCA Queensland" (has that relationship now fallen over too?)

Think about it.

Cheers
Nicky

*is not capable of expressing an animal welfare perspective in any terms that might cost dollars other than those of the taxpayer*

What a lot of bollocks Nicky! I'll tell you the difference.
You admit to having led a protected life. Farmers are much
more in touch with the real world out there, then you will ever
be.

Pack your swag and go and work on a station for 6 months,
to get in touch with some kind of reality, in touch with
nature, in touch with livestock, in their natural environment.

I actually read some of your favourite website the other night,
the live exports shame one. I just shook my head, that people
can write such rubbish and be so out of touch with the real world.

Of course farmers care about animal welfare, it is also in balance
with everything else. They understand the difference between a
dog and a sheep, something which it seems you still don't undertand.

The Taliban are fanatics, you lot are fanatics. The Taliban are
unable to reason about things, their ideology prevails, you do
the same Nicky. So of course it makes sense to compare you.

Take Trisolfen for instance. When it first came out, I know farmers
who jumped through hoops to get some. Even vets had to jump through
hoops to get it for those farmers. It was a nightmare just trying
to get hold of the stuff, due to all the regulations from Canberra.

Clearly these farmers did not do it for profit. You know so little
about farmers, it is shamefull. Yes, the farming press discusses
issues from all perspectives, including animal welfare. Clearly
you know little about the farming press.

Hi all
Yabby, myopic is an understatement. From what I've read at www.liveexportshame.com, it includes:-

- Factual material from the Australian Bureau of Statistics about the value of agriculture and the live export industry to the Australian economy
-In the news updates section, full media reports, properly sourced and referenced, relating to the live export induastry and other animal welfare issues - including reports from the "rural press" (to which I subscribe myself as well, as it happens)
- Factual material filmed in the Middle East by Animals Australia which constitutes valid evidence of the brutality to which animals are subjected in the Middle East (and SE Asia)
- Reports by German animal welfare group Animals Angels, which accompanied several shipments to SE Asia (the ships upon which they reported are amongst those that were re-named to mask their backgrounds)
- A fully referenced document "A Disaster by Another name" which details the full history of all the ships used to transport Australian animals
- AQIS mortality reports (and/or links to them)

There doesn't seem to be too much scope for error there, I'm afraid. I think it's a pretty good reflection of reality.

Nor can you hold the animal welfare movement responsible for the difficulties with Trisolfen. One would expect that, given the clout the farmers have over the government, that you would be able to address that yourselves, after all, the government falls over itself to accommodate everything else the farmers want.

If you didn't understand the sarcasm attached to my earlier comment about "sheltered" lives, then I won't bother explaining it; suffice it to say that I think I have seen far more of the "real" world than someone sheltered on a farm their whole lives whose main priority in life is how to get the biggest bang for their buck out of their unfortunate animals.

Cheers
Nicky.