So what do people look for when buying meat.

Is it price, quality, value for money, service or convenience.

It is obvious there are many regulars on this site and I would realy like to know what makes you decide when and where to buy your fresh meats.

I try to buy organic meat whenever possible and will pay more for this option. We are lucky that there is an organic butchers shop here which also provides 'real' free range eggs and other products.

Woolworths and Coles occasionally stock organic but it is not as reliable supply wise but I will buy it from them, usually on the spur of the moment, if it is available.

Service is important - happy to pay more to help an independent butcher over a large supermarket if I can. It is a nice feeling when you can establish a good relationship with the butcher or indeed any small business owner.

This option is not for everyone because of cost, pensioners could not afford it mores the pity. We are not rich but comfortable and we choose to eat less meat but pay more for the meat we do consume.

My grandfather was a butcher. :)

*It is a nice feeling when you can establish a good relationship with the butcher or indeed any small business owner.*

Sounds like it pays butchers to sweettalk the females :) Sorry,
but I buy my meat from Coles. Their meat is better then the local
butcher, who is stuck with the meatworks he has for logistics
reasons. I can then pick out what I want from there, unlike at
the butchers.

Lamb is my own, the best of the lot. The more we get away from
wool breeds, the better they taste.

As to organics, I don't have Pelican's faith nor belief.

I once followed a discussion involving some US organic farmers,
where they feed alot of grains etc. As organic grains are hard
to find and expensive, they were feeding their livestock "certified
Chinese organic soy meal" Hey, believe whatever you will lol,
I'll prefer to stick to Aussie free range, where they eat mainly
grass and clover.

But thats getting harder and harder to buy especially for those not so wealthy.
Even the average family now cant afford the prices that go up and up because its so hard to get while we Australian Compete because of the cruel live export trade.
Today we compete for our food with the whole world not only meat but in everything.
I fear if the cruel live trade isnt stopped Australian familes will only have memories of putting meat on the table:)

Ha ha Yabby, I don't think I am in the right age group to be sweet talked, my hubby does that. :)

I do agree with you on organics (don't faint) to some extent that we cannot always trust the supplier. It has become a bit of an industry in itself and you have to do your own research. The butcher we use gets his meat from up north from a producer who does not feedlot and his cattle are grassfed.

The problem with organics is also the supply - not always the choice available. There is a good argument for stronger controls in regards to certification. I also stress that organic should also mean cruelty free and there are a growing number of these outlets now either online or retail but alas not in the smaller cities. Of course, you cannot not buy meat online (that I know of).

*I fear if the cruel live trade isnt stopped Australian familes will only have memories of putting meat on the table:)*

At least even you Gertrude, can see the funny side of that, ie it
not being true. Our charming meat processors in WA pay 90c a kg
or thereabouts for mutton. They have a captive market and they
know it.

Meat in Australia is extremely cheap. Many cuts are far cheaper
then many fruits or veggies.

Nineteen years ago I would buy a leg of lamb at the market for $5. Today my supermarket sells a leg for $25 so I eat more pork.
Nineteen years ago, local farmers would sell me a whole lamb for a spit roast for $35 and today I can get one for maybe $60 or $70.
How much are the supermarkets adding?

"Nineteen years ago I would buy a leg of lamb at the market for $5. Today my supermarket sells a leg for $25 so I eat more pork."

... and in doing so you support the cruelest of factory farming methods, unless of course it is certified free range :)

BTW, even i would doubt most claims of organic pork in australia given the lack of organic grain supplies.

When I do buy meat it is from the butcher, not the supermarket. I refuse to buy grain fed (feedlot) beef or lamb but am lucky enough to have my own supplies of grass fed most of the time.

Yabby - wasnt Coles only just recently rapped over the knuckles for not supporting their local beef industry in WA? That they actually bring it in from the east? Or are you just saying you would prefer your meat from over here because we do just do it so much better :)

You are quite correct PF, Coles did get a wrap over the knuckles.
Not only that, Coles were bought by Wesfarmers and guess which
farmers dominate the Wesfarmers share registery? :)

To be fair to Coles, it wasn't all their fault. WA lacks meat
processors and it was there where the problem was. We have exactly
one single beef export works, one major mutton prosessing works
and one major lamb processing works. Its a sick industry in WA,
due to lack of competition.

Phoenix, 19 years ago, everything was half price of today. A
2.5 kg lamb roast at 25$, is around 10 bucks a kg. If you buy them
on special they are usually 6.99 a kg. Many veggies are more then
that. Your best bet is to slice that leg up into lamb steaks,
which at 6.99, makes for very cheap meat.

You can still buy a lamb for 35$, but it will be a store lamb,
or smallish lamb.

As I'm always looking for a chance to save money, I buy a whole rump of "steer" for $6.00 a kilo at the local wholesale butcher. After I have cut the fat off it, I mince it, flatten it into "pancake" portions for easy defrosting and throw them in the freezer. This way I get completely fat-free delicious meat which is better than the best mince in Woolies all for under $8-00 a kilo. I also bake all my own bread in a bread machine, grow some of my own veggies, grow a lot of citrus fruit, but that's another story.

Meat is still as cheap as it ever was if you take in average incomes.
Consider the price of petrol in the days you got your lamb for $35.
My pork comes from local free range grower just because that is my best deal bulk at a price.
Cole's or Woolworth's for the rest and free range chooks when you can buy them.
If not a chicken specialty shop is expensive but its all ready to cook.
May I an average meat buyer say I do not like animal cruelty and will buy based on it, but am turned off by groups like peta?
Others too but my lips are sealed, the current campaign against long distance travel for live exports seems to be interesting.
More information any one?

I can get whole rump for $6/kg at the local butchers. Coles and woolies charge about 3 times as much. The only meat I buy from them is roo mince, which costs about the same and occasionally roo sausages. Price is pretty much it, so long as it is edible. I do a lot of stir fries these days and quality doesn't matter there. With sausages there is so much poo filler that quality is the main issue. I also buy salami - Don is good, primo is poo - soft, mushy and fatty.

Yabby

Ar, Yabbs the smile was to have found you as you hide out from our questions.

Getting easier as your nose protrudes.

Even Pinocchio was concerned by your porkpies to the good people battling to buy a feed for their kids.

The old pensioners that deserve better as a few miserable low life’s that export our products to better paying customers strip the food off their tables just for a little extra fodder. Nothing left - there’s nothing left for these poor old fellas ;)

FAMILY budgets are under siege with grocery food prices soaring at more than twice the inflation rate for the second year in a row.
Weekly grocery bills rose 6.5 per cent in a year, eating into the average household income, which grew 4.3 per cent in the year to September.

On average, a standard basket of goods from Coles or Woolworths in Brisbane now costs $174.68 – up from $164.05 at this time last year and $152.90 a year earlier.

“But meat” prices rose sharply during the year – up an average 15.4 per cent, or five times the annual underlying inflation rate of 3 per cent – with industry groups blaming the rise on a jump in production costs.
The shortage of supply has pushed up prices...

No these live animal exporters have really effected our meat prices as you can see far more than anything else in the food line.

They are so bankrupt of principles they would by a starving bloke a pork pie ;)
For those who think we say this drawing attention- We do we do, we do., of course admit the cruelty is of higher concern than the future for families unable to purchase meat.

I was watching a poor old fella at the shops the other day picking up the meat packages and putting them down again- You could see he really wanted that meat but walked away.

I found myself wishing I had a camera to send a picture to Rudd AWB, Elders, MLA showing them what they done to this one old fella:)

Free diver if you watch that roo meat at Cole's the price can be halved as the use by date gets close.
In fact any meat can if you look for it.
Prices change yes naturally in the 1960,s half a mutton was $3.50 Fuel was 26 cents a gallon, $2.00 filled you tank and you got a weekend out of the change.
As a percentage of total income meat costs less not more today.
I for a while worked in a meat export factory then both beef and mutton, then and now I see no link to exporting meat and price in Australia.

Gertrude, there is hardly a thread that you would not try to turn
into one about live exports, but then you are obsessed, as we are
all aware.

Fact is that live exports don't affect what is in the Coles or
Woolies meat counter, as Aussies hardly eat mutton, unless its
ground up in their pies or sausage rolls etc.

If people want cheap meat, mutton is in fact there, but only in
small quantities, as not alot is sold. They can buy all the meat
they want at 6 bucks a kg. At 250g a serve, thats 1.50$ !
Compare that with 3$ for a cup of coffee and tell me what is value
for money. But you will no doubt continue to try and turn this
thread into yet another rant about live exports, as per usual.

Sheesh Gertrude, you need a boyfriend over there, so that you can
go and annoy him and give the rest of us a break :)

Yabby,

It is my fault live exports are effecting so much within Australia.

Dont you have Tv out here. Havent you seen all the today tonight and a current affairs programes explaining to the public that they atre now competing with world prices on food and its only going to get worse.

You should have seen some of the poor old buggers they had on TV trying to buy meat.

Theres not enough now as you know to fill the orders for the ever growing market as Asia gets stronger.

You cant deny the shortage of meat world wide and you cant deny the fact that Australia is the bi ggest supplyer of live animal;s.

Now it it only stands to reason if they are sending animals from Australia live and scambling to fill orders that nobody is too worried about the Australia public.

As you have pointed out so many times for us on this forum that farmers get a better price for filling overseas orders than even a dummy can work out we only get the rubbish and that when we can get it.

Am I annoying you Yabbs ,Gee sorry about that. Na, I would rather stick around talking to you Yabbs.

Now dont go trying to tell these good folk that sending our meat off as first prefernce dead or alive to overseas doesnt effect them at the check outs.
They are not that stupid. If we has as many abattoirs operating here as we used to the compertion would bring the price down for the customer.

You have said so yourself many times yourself so you cant now argue it both ways.

In other words you cant have your cake and send off the ingrediants to bake the cake too.

Food for thought:)

Gertrude, as a closet veggie, you would not have the foggiest about
what is in Australia's meat counters.

So I will list for you, what is this week on special, just in
today's paper:

Woolies, beef sausages, $3.27 a kg, half the price of their mushrooms.

Coles, rump steak for 8.97 a kg, chicken drumsticks for 3.99

IGA, 6.99 for blade steak 9.99 for eye round.

What meat shortage? Your post and mind seem as confused as ever.

Very interesting feedback and I am pleased to say that this is one topic I do know about.

Phoenix94, your comments
Nineteen years ago, local farmers would sell me a whole lamb for a spit roast for $35 and today I can get one for maybe $60 or $70.
How much are the supermarkets adding?

Nineteen years ago I could buy a whole sheep wholesale for $15.00. The farmer was lucky to get $1.00. True – one dollar. The rest was taken up with delivery, production, agent’s costs and government costs.

Interesting comment about pork. Did you know that last year 85% of all pork sold in Australia was imported! This includes ham, bacon and smallgoods.

As I don’t bag other retailers I will not suggest were it was sold through.

Belly, your quote,
I for a while worked in a meat export factory then both beef and mutton, then and now I see no link to exporting meat and price in Australia.

You see as a notion we export about 85% of the meats we produce. We do this through necessity as we over produce on mass because of our small population and high living standards.

The export market has the largest impact on our domestic meat prices and this demand is driven by the value of our dollar. At the moment meat is quite cheap because of the exchange rates, unless you buy ‘top shelf’ or organic. Be very wary though of ‘cheap organic’ as there quite simply is no such thing. I would also suggest you ask your retailer for proof that it is in fact organic.

Yabby, your comment
Fact is that live exports don't affect what is in the Coles or
Woolies meat counter, as Aussies hardly eat mutton, unless its
ground up in their pies or sausage rolls etc.

As for your comment on local butchers being stuck with suppliers due to logistical reasons, well I am sorry but this is simply not true.

We as retail butchers have access to meat from every part of the country it is just that some butchers can’t think outside the square so as to say.

Just for the record 30 years ago when I started as an apprentice rump steak was $8.00 per kilo. Today $19.00 per kilo. Really should be around $65.00 per kilo given how much a loaf of bread has gone up.

A small tip.
If the dollar drops below 80c US meat prices will soar. The latest mail is that prices are about to fall quite sharply so be on the lookout for this.
Cheers

rehctub would you agree generally meat is not in short supplie?
Our meat export trade started a long time ago with cracker cows exported as hamburger meat to the USA.
We need to export that 85% because we few can not eat it.
It could be said why not let other country's have that market but do we then survive as a farming country?
Yes if prices doubled as a result of our dollar or too much exporting we would still not be paying a great deal more in todays dollar values than those I quoted.
A local butcher, in country NSW who knows you is better value you just can not beat that personal link.
He can not compete with Cole's ext specials but quality is better.
Cole's sausages are about as good as eating dirt, and I wounder how long it will be before they sell pre packed tail tags.
Yabby however has in my view it right meat exports live or chilled are going to continue and are no threat to consumers

Belly

The last time you gave your opinion it was to complain about those dreadful people following you into the thread title Kevin Rudd and Trade in China.

You stood on your dig. You wanted to know just what Kevin Rudd; Trade, China had to do with live exports.

Enough said about your knowledge on the meat trade dead or alive.

Australia actually gives more funding to overseas than Australia for meat projects and plants here in Oz

For example in the last labor Government era a bloke tries to buy meat works but he was a tad short. So he asks regional development for $500.00 has the rest himself so not big loan.

Gov say no. No funds available. Three weeks later they hand over 40 million for the same plants to a Japanese owned company.
Now before you ask yes this does effect the price of meat and the preferences given of supply.

If you want good Ausue meat you will have to go to Japan or elsewhere. In twenty years time we are heading for a world food shortage anyway.

If you don’t think the UN by that time are not going to try to have Australia tagged war criminals and put sanctions on our food being deliver your not clued.

Now considering where we are from the rest of the world and the lack of plants clearly its only going to get worse much worse.

The fact meat is getting harder to buy because of high demand and we are up against the prices in Asia.

The demand for more meat in ME and Asia is pushing up the price here and many people can’t afford meat now let alone down the track.

Almost 16% rise already as I said.
I buy meat for a cousin who is on a pension. I buy it bulk and she freezes it every six month os so.
If I didn’t there is no way she would have meat. She simply could not afford it. It’s only going to get worse.

"Others too but my lips are sealed, the current campaign against long distance travel for live exports seems to be interesting.
More information any one?" (Belly)

Happy to oblige Belly:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/news/exposed-the-long-cruel-road-to-the-slaughterhouse-781364.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/20/2168168.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/nsw/content/2006/s2159572.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/200803/s2181978.htm

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/bribe-claim-rocks-wool-trade-body/2008/03/07/1204780065920.html

Looks like merino meat could be a real bargain this year eh?

http://www.liveexportshame.com/news2/index.php?topic=4185.0

Thanks dickie I do think the animals Australia campaign is well run, but like most Australians am not convinced.
I understand it is cruel , but questions exist.
In debating this issue may I say the opinions of those who are not yet on one side or the other are valid?
That it is unlikely we can be pushed and shoved into sharing others ideas and thoughts?
In trying to get support for any issue , any you can name rational discussions do more good than insisting others should think as we do.
I will not give in to the view meat exports live or chilled are going to kill my weekend Bar B Q's.
In truth cost seems more related to drought than exports surely for all Australian farm products?
dickie in your view what percentage of the meat we produce in Australia is eaten here?

A lot is said about the pros & cons about meat exports, both live and dead.

The truth is that these are purpose bread animals (sheep I am referring to) and are in large bread to meet the market demands. They are not wild beasts that we captured.

I for one do not support live export, not on grounds of cruelty because believe me, (if you think we are cruel what do you think happens to the animals at their place of destination), but for the reason that there are so many local jobs lost through this practice.

Furthermore, it is our 'poor bleeding heart farmers' that are to blame because after all it is they who chase the easy export dollars by exporting live.

Another myth is the one that we only get the leftovers. Just not true.

Sure we export a small amount, in relative terms, to Korea and Japan but the bulk of our exports go to the US for their hamburger trade.

Another tip.
Try to buy Tasmanian meats, they are expensive but also hormone and steroid free due to legislation.

rehctub,

Thanks
I was actually referring to beef. I am in QLD and we export most of our Animals Live.
Yes I am aware of USA who of course were the brainchild- or without brains not to mention common decency towards animals.

However it wasn’t my intention to divert your thread into a debate about the live Animal Export trade.

I just wanted to point out that we compete now on a world wide market for our meat especially beef and as Asia gets stronger so do our prices go up here in Australia and our supply lowers.

The way in which is supply Aussies with good prices and ongoing supply is of course to reopen plant and export our meat in boxes.

Clearly there is as you know an enormous trade of lamb going to ME and other places.

We are experiencing the price hike as agents battle it out at the stock yards.

One of the other issues that is very important for Australia to be aware of is there are people in interested to produce here in Australia.

We are arranging a meeting for heads of Muslim reps and RSPCA National to sit at the table and talk about alternative options as part of the Handle with Care Campaign Run by RSPCA working world wide with over ten other Animals Welfare groups including the Humane Society-
pale runs the RSPCA QLD campaign against live exports.

http://www.rspcavic.org/campaigns_news/campaigns_handle_with_care.htm

In the mean time rehctub, to go back to the 'bone of your thread -I see one store has offered a ten percent discount to pensioners.

How would that stack up for you in a small butchers shop.

Do you think perhaps that may be a way of getting the small butcher back on the map or is it too much to carry in you opinion?

Good to talk to someone who knows what they are on about and can thow a few words together.

Couldnt agree with you more on your coments addressing the farmers.

We all have to do our bit.

Good luck to you rehctub,

Well Spoken

I do not and never will support live exports of animals. For me it is the cruelty; nothing else.

Is meat good value for money?

No! It bloody well is not!

Neck of lamb used to be the cheapest of cheap cuts, it made a decent and cheap little casserole:- Now $7.99 a kg average.

Ribs were sold as stock bones at one point; made good soup:- Now sold as 'American Ribs'- $8.99 a kg ave.

Liver/hearts/tongue:- this offal was a dirt cheap little meal:- Now $5-6-7.99 a kg ave.

There is example after example.

Given what the farmer is getting per animal, the supermarket and even the butcher is ripping off the public BIG TIME!

Coles/Woolworths use a marketing tactic where they will over price meat but tell you that you are 'saving' $5-10 or more a kg.

RUBBISH!! That would take some of the cheaper cuts of meats well over the $20 a kg mark. A blatant lie. (It HAS been monitored).

A technique designed to fool the consumer into thinking they are getting value for money. Nothing could be further from the truth.

*Furthermore, it is our 'poor bleeding heart farmers' that are to blame because after all it is they who chase the easy export dollars by exporting live.*

earlier it was

*Nineteen years ago I could buy a whole sheep wholesale for $15.00. The farmer was lucky to get $1.00. True – one dollar. The rest was taken up with delivery, production, agent’s costs and government costs.*

There you have it Rehctub, your points say it all, thats why
the live trade exists. When did you give a hoot about farmers incomes?
Clearly as long as you made your margin, even if the farmer
only got a dollar for his sheep, you could not care less, nor could
anyone else for that matter.

Have you ever tried to run a farm and handle all the costs involved?
Clearly not. Have you ever been to a saleyard, where one buyer will
buy for 5 meatworks, so avoiding competition between them? They
say that not everyone in the meat industry is a shark, but every
shark is in the meat industry. There is no better example of this
then WA, where processors can really do as they please, due to
lack of competition. WA has the cheapest lambs in Australia, but
the most expensive lamb in the shops. The middlemen are creaming it
bigtime!

Thats why the live trade needs to exist. Due to the captive market,
we need fair market competition, which presently does not exist.
The live trade keeps the rest of the meat industry at least a tiny
bit honest, on the grades where they actually compete, which is
only on 10% of the overall numbers. Thats why farmers support them.

Yabby

Old school farmers were lead down a trap by savvy political interference encourage or mislead by those involved in the shipping agent industry of live animals.

They were betrayed as the people involved in making their quid out of trade stepped in.
They swamped the country with cheap imports that’s what your great hero’s did.

I see old people who once lived well really battling to buy meat.

We are not saying the live trade is the only reason for price hikes but it certainly is one of the major factors.

These poor old farmers back then never understood and of course did not ask the right questions and so that was the beginning of ensuring meat prices rose.

Many of them have been pushed out of the industry however the closure of nearly all our abattoirs most certainly has pushed the price of meat up.
That and the lack of availability to the agent who is doing the buying for products.

Given that the majority of the meat works and processing plants were situated within regional areas, the impact of closures of plants has been nothing less than devastating on local communities and business.

There is a direct and indirect economical linkages of meat processing embrace a wide range of sectors including transport, whole sale trade, energy, packaging and paper, plastic products, mechanical and other spares.

I would like to go into this deeper with you but when I do you claim you cant understand me and question my mental well being, or who ever has made the comment on behalf of pale.

That’s an old school thing too. If you can’t win the debate attack the person’s credibility or their personal life.
Well you go right ahead Yabby because the simply truth is as our stock goes live to Asia our prices are going to sore.

The more we send our raw products off in the most valuable form before value adding the harder its going to be for people to survive.

*I was actually referring to beef. I am in QLD and we export most of our Animals Live*

Gertrude, here is a URL about live cattle. Read for youself just
how wrong you are with your claims.

http://www.abareconomics.com/publications_html/livestock/livestock_07/Beef07.pdf

I remind you that the Queensland weekly slaughter statistics are
around the 50'000 head mark, compared to the whole of Australia
live trade of around 5-600'000. In other words, the total cattle
live trade is a very small part of the total cattle kill.
Over 90% of cattle are slaughtered right here, including
Queensland.

Ginx

Firstly, it is hard to respond to your comment ‘used to be cheap’ as I have no idea of when you are referring to.

Neck of lamb used to be the cheapest of cheap cuts, it made a decent and cheap little casserole:- Now $7.99 a kg average.
(Whole lamb whole sale today $5.20Kg - 1985 $1.35 Kg Difference 285% makes $7.99 Kg reasonable considering the increased costs associated with selling the product hey!)

Ribs were sold as stock bones at one point; made good soup:- now sold as 'American Ribs'- $8.99 a kg ave. (85% of pork sold in AU was imported last year. They import boneless middles, this is why ribs are so dear)

Liver/hearts/tongue:- this offal was a dirt cheap little meal:- Now $5-6-7.99 a kg ave. (now exported, this is why the price rise) Little tip, the next time you eat seafood extender, enjoy your tripe, cause that’s what it’s made from.

continued
Yabby
You have done your homework on my threads, well done. Here is a more accurate description.

19 years ago: Farmer paid $1.00 per sheep, today they fetch from $70+ . Imagine the uproar if we butchers raised our prices to 70 times as much. You would have grounds to complain then.

As for me complaining about farmers. We have seen farmers getting drought relief for the past 10 years then, when it finally rains, flood relief.

What about the businesses who rely on the farmers for their existence. They have mortgages, families, education expenses etc, why don’t they get relief. What about the businesses that suffered from the cyclone up north. Did they get assistance from the government when they went out of business?

Some or several carriers used to take the bananas from up north to market. What happened to them when there were no bananas, did they get relief from the government of did they do what everyone else has to do, claim it on insurance, if they can afford the premiums.

You see it is the farmers that get relief when times are tough while the rest of the community suffers.

They should be mad pay back the relief when they return a profit. It is the biggest scam going and what do they do when the dollar drops and export demand increases, they sell to the highest bidder. Overseas or interstate!

The reason why so many farmers struggle to run their farms is because they insisted that their children gained an education. The only thing they didn’t account for was that once educated, the children realised that farming was to hard and not worth the effort.

I don't hate farmers, infact we rely on them for most of our daily needs. It's just that they are the first to put their hand out when it rains and the first to cry poor when it doesn't.

They sell to the highest bidder don't care if that bidder is OS while enjoying the fruits of our (the tax peyers) labor when they have a rough trot.

rehctub and Belly,
If yopu want the story from the exporters point of view try LiveExportsCare.com. I would like to see all stock slaughtered here but that is a long way off. I have reservations about acheiving that goal simply because of the high costs processors here encounter. This results in exporters being able to pay farmers 2-3 times more than the local processors. It is not reasonable to expect farmers to take lower prices of that magnatude.

Sheep exporters handle about twice the number of sheep than the local processors do for export. To make inroads into the exporters share there is a need to expand facilites here and at delivery points. that is big dollars, coupled with our high costs here there would be a relunctance to invest. Then there are issues of getting specialist staff and time taken for customers to fully accept the new form of product. So there are many obstacles, not to mention resistance from the exporters.

I do not beleive that meat is dear judging by prices quote in posts here. Prices have to be converted to a per serve basis.

Lamb leg @ $25 = about $5 per serve
Whole rumps @$6 k = $3 per serve
Mince @$8 k =10 rissoles @ $1.60 per serve
Blade stk $7 k (stewed) =4 serves@ $1.75 serve.
Rump @$9 K = 2 serves @ $4.50 serve
Neck chops @ $8 k =4 serves (stewed) @ $2 per serve
American ribs @$9 k= 2 serves @$4.50 perserve

From my freezer, Purchassed at Coles
Thin beef sausages approx 40c each = 4 perserve =$1,60
Chump chops approx $2 each, 2 per serve =$4 per serve
Lamb Loin chops Approx $2 each, 3 perserve = $6 per serve
Fillet Stk @$5 piece 2 per serve = $10 perserve

This may vary a bit depending on size of serve, but one should be able to have one good cooked meal with meat per day at say $6 per day.

compare that to a cup of coffee.

I do not think yabby is that type of farmer rehctub look I love to take the shall we say Micky while meaning something else out of some farmers.
The ones who have sons named after Scottish breads of cattle Angus and Brangus you know the ones.
Let us not however forget we once did in fact ride on the sheep's back.
Before mining we had not much more than farming to keep our balance of payments under control.
The old country party did have Socialism for the land as its platform.
But Australia wanted and still does a viable rural industry.
We must confront our balance of trade ,make more here and such but most of our meat will always be exported and some markets will not buy other than live.
It is not our farmers or butchers who control prices, those bananas are a case in point prices have not settled even now to near pre cyclone days more rots than ever but prices stay high.

*Imagine the uproar if we
butchers raised our prices to 70 times as much.*

Rehctub, you clearly missed the point. 1$ for a lamb is clearly not viable.
The point is, even if we gave you the sheep for free, consumers would still pay
plenty, as all the middle men take their cut.

I’ve been told by butchers that a lamb owes them anything from 185-300$.
If they paid 40$ or 70$ for it, hardly matters. The cost from the farm gate
to the consumer is far greater then what is paid to producers.

Lets look at some figures. 20c worth of wheat is in your loaf of bread.
40c worth of milk is what producers are paid per litre.
Potatoes are worth 20c a kg to the farmer, McDonalds charge you 18$ a kg.
Meat is around 90c-3$ a kg for the farmer, the rest are middle men mark ups.

Still today, thousands of lambs are sold for 5-10 bucks a head. They are store
lambs, not good enough for today’s high standard of consumer demand for
grain fed feedlot lambs.

*We have seen farmers getting drought relief for the past 10
years*

Hang on, don’t blame farmers as a whole, for what has been paid to some
NSW and Queensland farmers, who have political influence. I don’t know
a single farmer around here who ever got Govt subsidies for drought etc.

I have no problem with cancelling all payments to any industry, as long as
its across the board, let the free market rule. No more billions to the car industry,
no more billions to manufacturing, no more billions to other Govt pet projects.
Use that money to get rid of payroll tax, so we have a level playing field.

Check your figures. Virtually zilch in subsidies has been paid to Western Australian
Farmers, who are the exporters of most of Australia’s live sheep. We tend to paddle
our own canoe here.

I have no problem with the fact that Australians should pay international prices for
their food. For they are the lowest prices on the planet.

rehctub,

I took it the American ribs in my post @ $9 k, were what are also called American Ribeye Steak or Cattlemans Cutlets. Which I have had and are very good on the Bar-b-que.

Maybe the poster who first mentioned was simply referring to soup or stock bones and if so the price does sound high to me.

Anyway posters can put their own prices on the meat, then convert it to servings before comparing. I do not think I would have any trouble getting by on $5 for meat per day.

Yabby

We have the largest plant for beef here in QLD and some other players.

However we are there red neck of live export of beef as well.

More beef goes from QLD NT than anywhere else live.

In NT they did have to close the wet season but not so in many areas of QLD.

Yet these plants have closed re opened and closed again.
Why? Short of supply. Right now there are operations underway to build plants in Malaysia Indonesia to slaughter animals being shipped in live from QLD NT and elsewhere in Australia.

They see themselves as the Halal hub of the world and through JAKIM accreditation through to Saudi and ME

So did you hear me the first time? They are building plants with Aussie tax payer’s money to slaughter in Indonesia and Malaysia and send to ME and elsewhere.

Actually they are building a whole port just to service the stock and meat exports. It’s a multu trillion dollar industry.

So please people do not tell us they insist on them live for religious purpose in ME.

It’s very simply really. They want them live to provide employment and a strong value adding economy.

Now it was supposed to be we slaughtered them here and sent them in whole carcass to JAKIM

Just goes to show you however what a joke the live export industry are when they continue to pull the whiskers of the general public by claiming – Oh they must have them live and there is no refrigeration .

Prices are going to go through the roof for meat.

You haven’t seen anything yet.

Gertrude, did you actually read the ABARE document, for which I
provided a link?

Did you read that in 2004-05-06 the live trade was only 7% by
volume and 5% by value. So 93% slaughtered in Australia.

Did you note the graphs, showing that Malaysia and Philippines
import most of their beef from India?

Did you note the map, showing that less then 5% of Queensland
cattle go live export and the numbers have been declining,
in contrast to the Kimberly region of WA and NT, which depend on
live exports?

Did you note that around 50'000 of the total live export figures
were actually dairy cows for China and Mexico?

So much for your claims about the Queensland cattle industry.

yabbs said

Gertrude, did you actually read the ABARE document, for which I
provided a link?

Yabby

(Funny my dad used to call me that). In answer to your question no I must be honest I did not read it. Not to be arrogant just busy. I leared long ago not to take much notice of some reports.

However just for you I will read it later. I have been around industry enough up here in QLD to tell you honestly we have plants closed on and off quite regually due to lack of supply.

It all depends where one does the reading.

I am very away of the abattoirs being built ie mentioned above and whats on the agenda. A bit of quite reading>

Previous | Page 1 | Page 2 Next
http://www.halaljournal.com/index2.php?page=articlelist&name=Halal%20Industry%20Development%20Corporation%20(HDC)&pages=1

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*I was actually referring to beef. I am in QLD and we export most of our Animals Live.*

The thing is Gertrude, that was your quote and its clearly rubbish.

You seem so bogged down with your Jakims and Muslim leaders, that
you don't even seem to be taking any notice of the fundamentals
and figures.

Yes they might all have their agendas, that does not mean that things
will turn out that way. Lots of people have agendas which never happen.

It is the responsibility of ABARE to analyse agricultural production
figures and to make predictions etc. Are you claiming that their
figures are wrong? Their predictions might be flawed, but then that
is common. That is also different to the basic data that they collect.

So I deal with facts as they are and as we can see from the ABARE
data, around 93% of cattle are processed in Australian, even higher
in Queensland.

Yes, some cattle are exported from the Kimberly and NT, to Indonesia,
where they go into feedlots. Most of those cattle are consumed by
Indonesians, they are not re exported. 200 million Indonesians have
an appetite for meat too, even if its more expensive for them, then
for Australians. But it is only a very small % of Australia’s production.

Has everyone noticed that the Tasman Group in Tasmania has been bought by some huge Brazilian concern? I think they bought some plants in Victoria as well, but not sure about that. Cattle are being exported from Tasmania as well out of Victoria but they are dairy cattle for China and Mexico mostly.

Yabby

When I get the time I will sit down and write in as much detail as space allows what is being arranged right now.

It was always planned for this to happen just not the slaughtering part to take place outside Australia.

I posted a little on this above.

Sorry thats the best I can do. In the mean time you could read some of the site if you have time. Please note we are no longer there at our request.

Some of it you need to be a member and I forgot about that in my last post.

When I get time I will go in a post the bits covering our recent posts to each other.

I dont think I would be popular If I posted pass words butI wont rule it out either.

http://www.afic.com.au/index1.htm

Not happy Jan .... as they say

Oh sorry I forgot no humour allowed:)

OK. Now where were we...

"Ginx
Firstly, it is hard to respond to your comment ‘used to be cheap’ as I have no idea of when you are referring to." (Quote:Rectum)

I will explain s-l-o-w-l-y so you will understand;.....both of you.

You ask about meat prices/value for money. I replied. In English. I do not think they are. I give examples. You respond with the above sarcasm and then go into detail of the relative economic value/imports/blah blah blah!!

You are a fella right? Because no woman who is trying to balance a budget would have responded in that manner.

I responded as a household budgeter would. Everything I said was true. You are into justification. I am referring to purchase PRICE. 'PRICES/MONEY' THOSE are the words in your thread title.

Seafood extender? Only those who know little about food and nutrition would dane to eat such rubbish.

1)

I do not believe that meat is dear judging by prices quote in posts here. Prices have to be converted to a per serve basis.

Lamb leg @ $25 = about $5 per serve
Whole rumps @$6 k = $3 per serve
Mince @$8 k =10 rissoles @ $1.60 per serve
Blade stk $7 k (stewed) =4 serves@ $1.75 serve.
Rump @$9 K = 2 serves @ $4.50 serve
Neck chops @ $8 k =4 serves (stewed) @ $2 per serve
American ribs @$9 k= 2 serves @$4.50 perserve

From my freezer, Purchassed at Coles
Thin beef sausages approx 40c each = 4 perserve =$1,60
Chump chops approx $2 each, 2 per serve =$4 per serve
Lamb Loin chops Approx $2 each, 3 perserve = $6 per serve
Fillet Stk @$5 piece 2 per serve = $10 perserve

This may vary a bit depending on size of serve, but one should be able to have one good cooked meal with meat per day at say $6 per day.

compare that to a cup of coffee.
Posted by Banjo, Monday, 10 March 2008 5:02:09 PM

'Compare that to a cup of coffee'?

OK. I will.

Average family:2 adults/2 children. Recommendation: 5 serves vegetable/3 serves fruit per day. A general average is 3 meals per day + those extra serves of vegetables?

2)

Lamb leg @ $25 = about $5 per serve=$20 meat course ONLY for ONE meal.

American ribs @$9 k= 2 serves @$4.50 per serve=$18 meat course only...etc.,

Chump chops approx $2 each, 2 per serve =$4 per serve=$16 per...etc.,

I won't bother with the fillet steak.....; the mince alone would cost the average family $6-40 for the meat course alone.

Now:- averaging at $4 per serve (you have used $6!!), makes the cost of meat for the average family per week.....$112 per week.

So you are saying that to pay an average of $100 per week for meat ALONE to cover ONE of those daily meals is good value!!

And you go compare it to a cup of coffee Bongo!

Tell me? Is $4 ($6?) the price you are paying for a cup of coffee in your home? (Where you eat these meals). Are you having that $4 cup of coffee in your home 3 times a day/7 days a week? And of course are your wife and two children doing the same?

NOW:- HAVE I ANSWERED YOUR THREAD QUESTION RECTUM?

*Lamb leg @ $25 = about $5 per serve=$20 meat course ONLY for ONE meal.*

Actually, that kind of money will buy you 2.5 -3.5 kg of leg
of lamb. (7-10$ a kg)

If four of you, including a couple of kids, are eating all that
in one meal, then you are eating well over half a kg of meat,
which is about twice as much as you should be and 3 times as
much as your average European. Clearly, if you are a glutton
for meat, it will cost you more, then what is considered a
"normal" portion.

170g-250g per serve is considered "normal"

Meat is extremely cheap, cheaper per kg then many veggies.
Many cuts are cheaper per kg, then many breakfast cereals.

I was simply referring to the other member of this 'boys club' and using his figures.

You males seem to be projecting yourselves as the experts..........?

In another life in a galaxy far, far away, I had a long sabbatical and studied diet and nutrition. Part of that involved visiting the abattoirs and studying cuts of meat etc.,

I wanted at one time to teach those on a limited budget how to stretch their bucks. I am NOT a farmer, but as a nutritionist with a very rusty degree, I will continue to disagree with you three.

As a carnivore; AND appreciating the nutritional value of meat, I see it as a integral part of a balanced diet.
Say what ever you want; put up whatever rationale you like. Meat today IS an expensive part of the average diet.

__________________________

What in the hell did you start this thread for Rectum, if all you wanted was agreement with you and your fellow clubbers?

*as a nutritionist with a very rusty degree*

Clearly its very rusty, for I don't know of nutritionists
suggesting that people eat meat three times a day, or half
a kg per serve.

Fact is that there are plenty of cuts around the 10$ per
kg mark. So a family of 4, at 250g per serve, could eat
meat every day for 10$ a day. For an individual, that would
be 2.50$ a day.

I just had a look at the washed mixed salad container. Its
120g for 3$. Thats 25$ a kg for salad! The mushrooms are
around 9$ a kg, the red capsicums 9$ a kg. We won't even
start on the packaged, processed foods, crammed with lard
in pretty packets. Meat is extremely cheap in comparison

Tonight on the news they showed clips of a doc being done - towoorwo I think.Its was about butchers saying people have stopped buying meat or cut down to a large degree in an effort to keep shopping trolley prices down

Penny
When I get more time I will respond to your enquiry fyi

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Yabby,
I agree with you, but I would not say 'extremely' cheap, I would prefer to say relatively cheaper compared to other foods. I am amazed at how much people tend to spend on buying lunch daily and morning tea.

The neck chops is a good example at $8 k and serves 4 adults. The $25 lamb leg should give 8 adult meals. 4 as roast and 4 as sheperds pie the next night, and the dog gets the bone. I was being over generous earlier when I said 5 servings.

Although I don't think very highly of Ginx, he is right to say people need educating to use the cheaper cuts. Crock pots are good for this and there is not many things nicer than the aroma coming from the pot when arriving home late afternoon. I once managed a property for a retail butcher and on many occasions he would bring me whole lambs necks to feed the dogs on. At first I was appalled but he could not sell many neck chops. He also got in whole, vacume packed, rumps and loins from NZ to suplement the beef carcases he used. Thus indicating the higher demand for grilling cuts. It would not surprize me to find NZ lamb being imported because of limited local supply because of the drought.

All in all, I think spending $5/day per adult for meat is reasonable. Unless one only uses lamb loin chops and the better grilling cuts of steak.

I don't know the reason for starting this thread but I suspect he was interested to find what people thought about meat prices and he just might get some info that could help his business. I have no problem with that.

Very little hogget is now used and even less mutton. If meat prices get really dear, as some here are suggesting, then butchers will get a demand for hogget and mutton, like they used too.

Banyo
You are right. I do have a couple of retail butcher shops and I find shoppers spending habits quite amusing at times

You see like it or not, food has now become a 'less-essential' item. What I mean by this is that many people buy their lotto, cigarettes, alcohol etc then they try to feed their family on what's left. Of cause they blame meat prices and it's always someone else's fault.

Often these same people think nothing of paying $30 or more for a pizza meal for one night. They justify this by saying "it's ok, I have a voucher".

As for Ginx, you just can't convince some people. Often when people have no answers or are backed into a corner they resort to name calling, did I see the name 'rectum' or was this just a 'typo'. They say sarcasm is the lowest form of whit.

Back on topic.
I started this thread because I was curious as to what people want and look for when buying meat. It is also one topic that I do have a wealth of knowledge in and appart from my mate Ginx, most posters have added genuine input.

Just remember, when I was a kid the ekka cost 20 cents entry. Now $12. That's 5901 times as much yet people still pay it and spend an average of $300 per head while there.

Believe me, meat is cheap when you use this as a comparison!

Yabby please don't be so tiresome. You do yourself a disservice, not me, by coming out with what I did NOT say.

(I wondered whether to put the 'rusty' thing btw; I knew it would leave room for a shot, but it was the best word I could think of.)

Tell me:-
Where did I refer to a meat meal three times a day?
Where did I refer to serves being 500g?
Where did I indicate that I thought vegetable/fruit were cheap?

You men ARE determined to push the cost comparison issue to the hilt.
I am equally determined to push the shopper view to the hilt.
$5 PER SERVE of meat per day IS too expensive for the average punter.

How sad this is. I am a staunch advocate of meat in the diet. I KNOW about the cost of fruit and vegetables;- but the thread was about meat!

And Yabby;...........God knows what deal you've got going with the supermarkets, but I STILL believe the farmer is being ripped off by the large retailer in particular.

Your turn.

I too enjoyed the thread, and understood the reason it was posted.
I learned rehctub was a butcher during the thread, it was not news that ginx gets a bit stroppy and that rectum was no mistake.
I am of your vintage rehctub and yes meat is cheap, Banjo speaks well of how we manage our buying.
Do you know I have little need to care about price , just me to feed but if only I could get my childhood favorite now!
16 kids got little meat but if money came we got a sugar bag of corned mutton flaps!
Loved it! about ten cents and boy was it good!
No butcher will do them for me but I dream of them.
No intent to provoke anyone but a post from yabby including the real numbers of live cattle this country exports was truly interesting to me.
I have farmed cattle as a side line in hard and good times but that information was good to have.
thanks for the thread and ginx enjoy your posting.

*$5 PER SERVE of meat per day IS too expensive for the average punter.*

Given that an average serve is 170-250g, 1 kg = at least 4 serves.

For 5$ a day, you could thus afford to pay 20 bucks a kg,
ie things like grain fed rump etc.

If you average it out, between chicken, snaggers, various average
beef cuts, if you are watching your budget, then 10$ a kg is
all you would need to spend. So $2.50 a day will do it for
you, which is very reasonable.

Gertrude, perhaps you need a Muslim boyfriend, then you can talk
about halal all day and night :)

All in all, I think spending $5/day per adult for meat is reasonable.
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 14 March 2008 11:15:49 AM

For Christ's sake grow a brain you stupid man! The quote wasn't mine.

(No wonder I get stroppy!! So Rectum's a butcher. That makes sense of someone who makes very little.)

Yes-Banjo- I would like to see mutton and hoggett in the shops again.

*$5 PER SERVE of meat per day IS too expensive for the average punter.*

But that was your quote and thats what I snipped.

Clearly you need a cup of tea and a calm down for a while :)

Your brother in male bonding referred to $5>>>>>>per adult<<<<<<< being reasonable.

(Which is a nifty little change from the 'per serve' in his other post!).

That IS expensive for the average family.

You then take my RESPONSE to it and revert THAT into weight per serve, instead of cost per serve;- as HE asserts;- because it suits your purpose to do so.

I'll have the cuppa; you need a brain transplant you patronizing git!

*you need a brain transplant you patronizing git!*

Ah Ginx, fun and friendly as ever I see :)

What is reasonable really depends on one's circumstances.
A family on the dole with 5 kids might budget differently
then a DINK couple working for the finance industry.

5$ for a prime piece of grain fed rump is in fact very reasonable,
compared to the cost of other foods. Personally I have no qualms
about spending 5$ on prime meat, t-bones, rump etc.

As was pointed out, peoples priorities seem to be cigarettes,
grog, pokies first, then complain about the food prices!

Smiths Crips cost about 15$ a kg, if you work it out. IMHO
prime grain fed rump at 20$ is quite cheap in comparison and
alot healthier and more nutritious.

The point is, there is no need to spend 5$ a day if you don't have
it. There is still plenty of meat for 2.50 a day, if that is
your budget, again good value for money, compared to other food.

Yes, I worked out the cost per kg, to establish the cost per
serve, which makes perfect sense.

BTW, sexual organs have little to do with these postings, but
then again, given your mood, are you sure you are not suffering
from PMT? :)

Hi all
Good to see Yabby and Ginx are both alive and well. But has somebody hurt PALE's feelings? We seem to have been remarkably insult free for several days.

I don't know what meat costs per day/per serve, but I'd question how healthy it is. Cholesterol ... colon cancer ... arteriosclerosis ... heart disease ...

Enjoy!
Nicky

Nicky insult free? may I ask that you look at Ginx recent posting history all threads?
Your points are worth taking note of age brings new ways of looking at what we eat.
But if we balance our meat intake we will not suffer, fact is we became human only after we began to eat meat.
Yes I am far from old in my view but eat less meat than once, with food like corned mutton on my most wanted lists it may be just as well.

Ginx: "Your brother in male bonding"

What does the gender of the writer have to do with the topic? Why do you feel the need to claim you're the "victim" of some unspecified male conspiracy?

Nicky Said

But has somebody hurt Pale’s feelings? We seem to have been remarkably insulted free for several days.
Pale replies

Nicky there is a difference between hurt feelings and defamation of a institute organization.

You posted this

Nicky said
And it's disappointing that you apparently believe that FGM is acceptable.

We replied with this=

Nicky this is Wendy Lewthwaite of pale.

Neither pale nor I said they supported FGM and I ask you to request that remark be removed from this forum.
Posted by People against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 10 March 2008 12:37:13 AM

Nicky replied=

No.
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 10 March 2008 1:11:37 AM

Pale comments
Nicky that’s a bit rich considering all you do is troll threads looking for pale to insult them. We know your supporting the extreme lot Nicky. I also am sure you are aware that at least I personally am aware of your ID.
No mistaking that personality.

We did not hit the red button bottom to OLO staff. Instead we requested nicely that 'you 'removed it.


The Muslim thread was a very long one and as usual you came crashing in just to insult and defame pale.

I suggest you put your time into doing something useleful for animals instead of rubbishing a group of well intended people.

So let’s get back to the price of meat or are you going to destroy this persons thread like all the others.

As for you defamation of pale Nicky we requested in a decent manner you remove that comment. Now I dont know what I am going to do about it nicky. I havent made my mind up about it despite the calls from complaints members and others.

When I do you will the first to know.

It will handled outside OLO Nicky so we can keep the focus on the Animals.

I apologies to the author of this thread and others I had to go offpost to respond.

Nicky, you are free to question how healthy it is. As we know from
nutritionists, a balanced and varied diet is the secret. Lets face
it, your main problem is philosophical, so even your dogs are forced
to be veggies, like it or not.

Now I'm going to have to go to the local old peoples home and tell
all those 90-95 year olds that they in fact had it all wrong,
if they had never eaten meat, they could live even longer!

Or I could point out to them that rabbits, despite only eating
your kind of rabbit food, don't live very long at all :(

Ginx: "Your brother in male bonding"

"What does the gender of the writer have to do with the topic? Why do you feel the need to claim you're the "victim" of some unspecified male conspiracy?"
Posted by Antiseptic, Saturday, 15 March 2008 8:01:49 AM

You are rather proving my point...

...'victim of a male conspiracy'?? Who said that?

Ahhh yes!...you did.

Auntypeptic, this is not the first time things I DIDN'T say have been put up here as a statement by me; and when I have questioned that.., my questions remain unanswered. It's catching isn't it?
______________________________

"5$ for a prime piece of grain fed rump is in fact very reasonable,
compared to the cost of other foods. Personally I have no qualms
about spending 5$ on prime meat, t-bones, rump etc." (Quote: YOBBY)

Well lardy da! ducky poos! You don't waste an opportunity to portray yourself as a superior being. What a ponce!!

__________________________

I suppose this has its amusing side. A butcher puts up a thread about meat prices and value for money, and clearly all he wanted was agreement, not discussion. The 'lads' come in with their own agenda to attack any criticism.

The Lord of the Manor/ the male bonder who sees ANY disagreement with males as a feminist plot/ and the butcher who just wanted yes men.
I don't include Banjo; he at least had the good grace to refer to the value/taste of cheaper cuts,- something the retail butcher doesn't want to sell anyway, because there's not enough profit in it.

The need to justify the price of meat results in the theory that EVERY family trying to balance the budget is buying junk-food/gambling/smoking. Some ARE, many are not, and are simply trying to balance the budget.

But we MUST cut the suit to fit the cloth, mustn't we?

I'll leave you 'boys' to deal with the toxic meat theory.

And yet you still avoid answering my original question: what does the gender of the author have to do with the topic? By making snide remarks about the "brother in male bonding", you imply some masculine collaboration aimed specifically at you. I'm sure you don't do so unwittingly, so why do you feel that way?

Ginx
My original post

So what do people look for when buying meat. ( reasonable question I thought)

Is it price, quality, value for money, service or convenience.

It is obvious there are many regulars on this site and I would realy like to know what makes you decide when and where to buy your fresh meats.

You followed with this;

I will explain s-l-o-w-l-y so you will understand;.....both of you.

Then this;

You ask about meat prices/value for money. I replied. In English. I do not think they are. I give examples. You respond with the above sarcasm and then go into detail of the relative economic value/imports/blah blah blah!!

And this;

You are a fella right? Because no woman who is trying to balance a budget would have responded in that manner

Then;

NOW:- HAVE I ANSWERED YOUR THREAD QUESTION RECTUM? (Actually, it’s rehctub)
Well no, but wait there’s more…

I was simply referring to the other member of this 'boys club' and using his figures.

Then;

You males seem to be projecting yourselves as the experts..........?

What about;

What in the hell did you start this thread for Rectum, if all you wanted was agreement with you and your fellow clubbers?

And;

I suppose this has its amusing side. A butcher puts up a thread about meat prices and value for money, and clearly all he wanted was agreement, not discussion. The 'lads' come in with their own agenda to attack any criticism.

oops, lloks like We’re loosing so lets hit em with the old’

The Lord of the Manor/ the male bonder who sees ANY disagreement with males as a feminist plot/ and the butcher who just wanted yes men.

And finally;

The need to justify the price of meat results in the theory that EVERY family trying to balance the budget is buying junk-food/gambling/smoking. Some ARE, many are not, and are simply trying to balance the budget.

Ginx
You’re a joke and an embarrassment to this forum. But then again, you’re also predictably laughable!
Thank's for the entertainment.
p.s. Butchers make more from cheap cuts!

Ahh, I think that perhaps Ginx is just facing her change of life
period. They get irritable, forgetfull, moodswings, hot flushes,
irrational, etc. etc.

Luckily we males are an understanding lot and put up with it all :)

Auntyseptic/Rectum/Yobby,

Well there you go! What have I been trying to tell you??
Three consecutive posts from the boys club.

Ahhhhh! Bless!

Hi all
I won't bother to dignify PALE's diatribe and threats with any further comment. The delusions and misinterpretations have taken over again. She/they really should read the material properly before going off her/their brain/s.

This "I know who you are" and "I'm going to get you" stuff varies between being monotonous and being irritating. I get curious from time to time but I won't bother with responding to her/them any more.

I don't buy meat, but if I did, I would certainly agree with Yabby about anything the Chinese certified as "organic". There is of course no "truth in labelling" legislation in China. "Truth in labelling" continues to be contentious even in Australia, evidenced in particular by the issue of cage/barn laid/free range eggs - people are still mystified by what they all actually mean.

I would imagine though that given the price rises in almost everything but especially petrol, budgetary constraints would be taking some priority in most mainstream households.

Yabby, as for your comments about "change of life" - I just can't understand why your solutions to anyone who disagrees with you have to centre around insults on gender/hormonal issues. Testosterone doesn't seem to have done you a whole lot of good on the intellectual level. Patronizing for no better reason than that makes you look like a rednecked prat.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky,

You continue to refuse to work on the issues you claim to be of such great interest to you- like Animal Welfare.

When we posted about Emanuel Brothers,contacting olo with complaints their names were posted you took little interest.

Maybe some people are not too bright and others perhaps not even really genioun about the live export issue. However we are. You keep going on saying we support FGM until you make yourself look rediclous.

The trailing and wailing about pale IMOP is a combined effort from some of the libbers to do what they think brings down our organisation.
Does Animals Australia know you quote all their material yet carry on like this in a public place? Of speaking of AA i forwared the information along to them about the compaint thinking they very interested .

Well Its late and your a waste of my time wake up for goodness sake Nicky your making yourself look silly and school girl nasti which doesnt assist the the animals.

All Animals need all of us working and btw Nicky its not a race. I am not going anywhere and neither is pale

Ginx:"Auntyseptic/Rectum/Yobby,

Well there you go! What have I been trying to tell you??
Three consecutive posts from the boys club."

What "boy's club"? Paranoid much, dear? Not to worry, the "grrrls" will be along to rescue you. Now, how's about that answer to my question: what does the gender of the author have to do with the topic at hand? Why do you feel you need to make everything a question of gender?

I was actually contemplating an interesting discussion, but I see you're just another lightweight, unable to stick to a topic and preferring to play stupid rhetorical games that most grew out of in the schoolyard. It seems that "Peter Pan" syndrome isn't a gendered condition either...

Back to the thread , we make more from cheap cuts? interesting stuff the thread has been worthwhile and I know better but will ask.
Nicky do you find Ginxs comments about sexuality acceptable?
This is a question bought about by your comment to yabby not in any way supporting any attacks on you by anyone, it is clear you can defend your self well.
But are only men to be held accountable for such sexual comments?
I truly want to know why men seem sometimes to be asked to be better mannered than women?

Belly
we make more from cheap cuts?
Explanation. I will try no to bore you, but here goes.
We have a fair amount of what is known as 'shrinkages'. That is a term used for something that didn't sell as it's intended cut and was then made into sausages, rissoles etc and sold for a lesser price.

So, when you have a product that retails for $8 kilo, which, when not sold becomes say $5 per kilo for sausages, rissoles you have lost $3 per kilo.

On the other hand if a product retails for say $25 per kilo, then becomes sausages, rissoles for $5 per kilo, the losses are much greater.

This is the basis behind the 'mark downs' you see at the supermarket. Better to loose a few dollars now than to pay the extra costs to make it into a 'lesser selling' product.

Of cause it is much more complex than this but I hope this clears the point somewhat.

I have a wealth of knowledge in my field and I am getting close to hanging up the cutlery. I am also in a position to offer plenty of advise to 'all people' on how to save money on meat and would be more than happy to do so.

Of cause I would never give out the location of my businesses, as this would be seen as me trying to profit from this site. Something I would never do.

Cheers

Deary me Nicky, you clearly missed out in the sense of humour
department. Do you have no ability to laugh at yourself? I just
don't take the world as seriously as you do and can see the funny
side of things.

The ABC's "My Family" (it might be beneath you, but its a comedy
programme) was exactly about the change of life the other night,
very funny indeed!

Given Ginx's tirade of abuse on here, for no good reason, despite
the fact that people were being civil, had to have a reason. Clearly
it wasn't us, clearly she is pissed off at life or at something,
but hey, don't blame us. Change of life problems could well be it!

My testosterone is fine thank you, I enjoy the benefits every day.
All those cute 18 year olds to check out, in their short skirts,
and wish I was 19 again!

As for intelligence, you are free to make intelligent comments, I
am free to prove you wrong as per usual :)

rehctub we debate about meat here often, in another thread based on waste in supermarket meat I highlighted discount of near use by date meat.
I spoke of my just teen age job picking up the bones from Sydney butcher shops and Homebush meat works.
A very long time ago but I still remember more than 100 butcher shops and most of those I got to meet in that 18 months.
Early winter mornings 4am first stop cooked sausages ready for us both last one a tray of cold meat pies.
Now its chicken steak and sausages ,not much lamb pork is local bought maybe not quite legal but bought in bulk and best quality.
The most out of cheap cuts?I still missed something there but understand fillers.
Like almost every rural person I have eaten many home killed feeds and that practice will continue forever.
One of a thousand story's from those days in a butcher shop in a rich part of Sydney over 40 years ago a old cranky lady gave a butcher hell because he was out of pork sausages.
He said hang on I remember I have just a few put away, rushed past me and put some beef ones under the cold water tap.
As we came in for our second basket the fat, she was walking out quite happy.
Next week he told us they had been the best she ever had.

Belly
Another myth is that just because something has a 'higher' price tag the consumer assumes the retailer makes more profit from this item.

Meat pies are a great example.
Most bakers make 28 pies from 1 kilo of mince and the pies cost on average of 50cents to make which means they have a mark up of 700% when sold for $4.
Most people think nothing of paying up to $4 for a good pie, yet cringe at the thought of $24 per kilo for 'top shelf' rump steak which has a mark up of around 70%. Now please don't get confussed between a 'mark up and a 'margin'.

A 200gr rump with veg costs just a little extra than a pie with veg. Both make a great meal yet one has a 700% mark up while the other has a 70% mark up.

You see it doesn't matter how much per kilo a meat meal costs, it is how many meals you get for your money that counts and I know this has been explained before so lets not try to re-ignite the issue.

Imagine how expensive meat would be if we butchers applied a 700% mark up.

As for the pork sausage situation let me tell you this is the very reason why butchers generally make good car salesman and alike.

As we say, "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with B S"

Anyway I could go on and on with examples of why meat is cheap in comparison to many food items and may I suggest to the ones who disagee, perhaps a little time spent on the net will provide you with ample low cost meat meals that will fulfill your families needs and won't stretch the budget to breaking point

"Given Ginx's tirade of abuse on here, for no good reason, despite the fact that people were being civil,......"
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 16 March 2008 12:56:24 PM

Such selective memory!! I did not come into this thread until page 5, making my post on 10/3.

Rectum replies on page 7 making his response on 13/3:

'Firstly..had to respond/...no idea what you are referring to.'.

REALLY?

That condescending remark was NOT a good start. SO..I explained s-l-o-w-l-y. And it was on for one and all!

You dish it out, but you don't like taking it. Tough.

Aunty; the male bonding? Yobbo and Rectum started out at odds with each other. Now they are bosom buddies, since joined by Belly.

Why? because they have a common target! Pathetic.

Rectum:- don't pretend that your attitude to me is just because of meat. We've met elsewhere on OLO haven't we? And as I recall you had to 'gang up' then to attack me. THAT'S why I distort your tag. You are cowardly.

Yobbo:- well..., you condescend to EVERYONE don't you. Given your projection of elitism, I think your new tag is better! You're not a coward, just self-absorbed.

Aunty,Aunty,Aunty!:-well you are just obsessed with the hard-done-by men issue, aren't you? I think Aunty suits you..

PS: you HAVE all gone VERY chummy here.

You've got me to thank for that!

Ginx

I'll leave you 'boys' to deal with the toxic meat theory.
Posted by Ginx, Saturday, 15 March 2008 3:57:57 PM

So here we go again Ginx. You are dead set like a turd that won't flush!

*Imagine how expensive meat would be if we butchers applied a 700% mark up.*

Ah Rehctub, that's why we need supermarkets, to keep you butchers
honest :)

Mind you, methinks that some new marketing models are required
for the meat industry. Growers costs are skyrocketing. Fertiliser
prices have just doubled for instance. The internet will provide
new opportunities, where people can buy a lamb or half a steer, all
cut up, high quality, delivered to their door. Farmers will benefit
from better prices and consumers will benefit from better value
for money. Stay tuned folks :)

Ginx, you are so bogged down with people, that you forget issues,
which is what we are here to debate. Frankly I don't care if
you are Queen Lizzie 2 herself. I agree to disagree with many
posters all the time. Thats about points of reason, not the poster
themselves.

But thats a girl thing. You focus on people and relationships, whilst
we fellas focus more on things. When you get bitchy, you make us
guys look as innocent as Goldilocks. Those female hormones have
alot to answer for

Not nice! But predictable. Now you know why I call you Rectum.
____________________

Yobbo; it would have been nice if I had been allowed to. But I was criticized on my first post;- which was about.....meat!

Without doubt OLO is now experiencing a strong man versus woman 'war'.

This woman 'interfered in a 'private' thread. She had to be put in what you 'boys' saw as her place. You even post together!

Well, I tell you what, I'll leave you to your male bonding.

It's become a little embarrassing anyway

Hi All
PALE really does make me tired. The stuff about Emanuels you posted was a matter of public record and basically common knowledge for anyone who cared to look for it. What exactly was I meant to do about it? What in particular did you do about it? Tell them how naughty they are? I don't know anything about a post to Graham Young, but I'm sure if it was of any significance, we would have all known about it with the usual fanfare.

Given what you say Animals Australia thinks about you, they probably haven't taken anything you've sent them too seriously - or they probably knew about it long before you did if it was of any remote relevance. What you do or don't think of FGM probably is equally irrelevant - trust me, it won't take off in this country.

Belly, that was an interesting question. Perhaps I need to read Ginx's comments a bit more closely. I just haven't happened to "lock horns" with him (?) as I have with Yabby, and we enjoy it so much. I don't think men have to have better manners with women (and as you can see on these posts, the men have significantly better manners than SOME of the women!) but I think attributing any criticisms to gender or hormonal issues is just a little inappropriate and narrow minded.

See Ya,
Nicky

Nicky
This is the third thread you have destroyed for somebody else.

The topic of meat prices is connected to the subject we have long debated regarding the closure of plants.

I suppose I really should not be surprised that you did not catch on as to why we posted regarding the complaint made to GY about our posting names connected directly to live exports .

No nicky that information has never been posted before and just as clearly it has rattled some cages.

That was the point. Name and shame. Here are a few more names to learn if your really interested to help with live exports-

http://www.livexports.com/contacts.html

re this comment=
What you do or don't think of FGM probably is equally irrelevant - trust me, it won't take off in this country.

Nicky you clearly have some sort of mental health issue. I have tried many time to ignore it because you have at times posted about your concern for animal welfare.

Whatever you do in your animal work pls remember you are not helping animals or the thousands of people working hard to make real changes including your friends at Animals Australia.

If you really do care about these issues I would urge you to post in a sensible manner about the topic and not use the OLO sytem to bring down the the name animal welfare in general.

I ts pointless responding to you and I believe it only serves to encourage your outbursts.

The meat industry hold the key to making changes so why not allow these good people to debate instead of barging in on every thread we post on.
You dont like RSPCA or Farmers or PALE we get that. Now pls move on with this thread.

PALE, when you own this site or have any control over it you can dictate who contributes, and what they contribute. As for mental health issues, may I suggest a look in the mirror and less drinking and smoking whatever funny stuff goes on up there?
Nicky

Ginx:"Aunty; the male bonding? Yobbo and Rectum started out at odds with each other. Now they are bosom buddies, since joined by Belly."

So, because they agree with each other on this topic and they happen to be males, they're part of a "boys club" aimed at you? Hahahaha. That paranoia seems to be getting worse.

Here's a tip, dear: not everything is a matter of gender. Even though most men you meet may disgree with you, it's nothing to do with your gender, just the fact that you're not very bright. I do hope that's cleared things up for you.

Nicky thanks for addressing my question but Ginx is female and wrong, no war is being fought by men against her or anyone else.
I still say men are expected to behave better than some women, good manners are out the door for some.
OK rehctub got your point and it was no surprise to see the car salesman bit but the truth is it happens.
The meat pie, well my enemy for life I eat far too many on the run could judge them at the royal show.
Had the best textured two I ever bought last week looked great tasted rotten!
That, what is it? lets add flavor thing that burns the mouth covers the taste of the meat gravy and pastry!
Hope the birds liked them out the window after 2 hours driving no breakfast and no shops for another 2 hours.

....................you guys really don't like being questioned do you?

.............sigh,..er, Belly.., what I was referring to was the plethora of subjects on the man/woman status currently on OLO, and specifically the strong opinions expressed.

I referred to that as a 'war'. IN QUOTE. (I KNOW it's not a war!). I never even suggested there was a war against me!

You may not have liked my response on another thread, but I never picked you as being petty.

The definition of not very bright has come with some expertise, and has a wide application...

rehctub, back to your original question, my family buys it's meat from a local butcher based on quality, although I'm sure we would shop elsewhere if we felt we were being ripped off ie. if the higher prices were not justified.
The butcher shop is a vertical integration of the owners feedlot, and I think the consistancy of the product is a major selling point. Quality meat and quality service are hard to go past.

Ginx, missed your last comment on Australia day-farmers, sorry. Archive is closed now.
If you could pass on my email to Les and Mazz I'd be happy to discuss water allocations with them. rojo84_10@hotmail.com

*but I think attributing any criticisms to gender or hormonal issues is just a little inappropriate and narrow minded.*

Hang on, why is it inappropriate? I remind you that endocrinology
is a very important part of both medicine and neuroscience.

Fact is that hormones affect behaviour and if you ignore this
important field, when analysing human behaviour, then you are
kidding yourself and argue from a point of ignorance, rather
then narrow mindedness.

I refuse to accept you attempt at censorship Nicky!

Are you trying to deny that hormones affect human behaviour?

Ginx
First this

I'll leave you 'boys' to deal with the toxic meat theory.
Posted by Ginx, Saturday, 15 March 2008 3:57:57 PM

Thank god for that I said to myself

Then this
Well, I tell you what, I'll leave you to your male bonding.

It's become a little embarrassing anyway
Posted by Ginx, Sunday, 16 March 2008 10:29:37 PM

But wait there’s more…..

It’s obvious you wont go away so I will try to convince you why meat can be an affordable food item for almost evryone.

Firstly, you must buy your meat, along with any other food items at prices that are within your budget. You can buy many meat items that are less than $8 per kilo, this makes them less than $2 per serve. Like it or not, what matters is how much a meat portion costs not how much per kilo it is. 150 to 300 grams of raw meat is considered a reasonable serve. Even your nutritional experts will back this up.

Of cause if you are one of the many who smoke, drink or gamble in excess, or have that comfy lounge complete with the plasma TV, all on the ‘buy now and worry about it latter’ deal, then perhaps it’s your spending habits that deprive you from your much wanted nutritional meat meals.

If so, please don’t blame someone else for your ‘self-inflicted’ state of poverty.

If not, I would be more than happy to provide you with several 'meat buying tips' to help you through your tough times.

Yabby
As for butchers being kept honnest. Check your supermarket prices and compare them with your butcher. As for the 700% comment, mate, go back and read my thread.

Also, the next time you buy bread rolls at 55cents each, remember a baker gets 13 bread rolls from the same amount of dough for 1 loaf of bread. This is where the term 'a bakers dozen' came from!

Cheers

p.s. Ginx, my offer is always open.
What can I say, you're growing on me!

Rehctub, I actually quoted from your statement.

The point is that its competition that keeps the market
honest, not butchers with a kind heart.

That is why we have such a distorted market in WA,
ie lack of competition.

The problem with food is that if you examine things over
time, (50 years), food has become relatively cheaper and
cheaper, compared to say average wages.

Yet the gap between the farmgate price and what the consumer
pays, has become larger and larger, as everyone passes on their
costs, except of course, the grower, who lands up with the
rough end of the proverbial pineapple.

We have now reached a point in agriculture, where many have
had enough, are selling off their land for other uses and are
getting out of producing food. Land is going for tree farms,
hobby farms, houses, you name it, it has a higher value as
farmers quit en masse and I don't blame them. They have been
screwed once too often.

I had to laugh, WA is short of milk now, so they are screaming
for new milk farmers. Yet only a few months ago, rather then
increase the miserable milk price paid in WA, which has been
well below the ES price, they were trucking in milk from SA!

The meat industry is much the same in WA. Our prices are well
below Eastern States prices. Processors can virtually do as
they please. Now they are amazed that farmers are selling off
livestock en masse and growing more crops. It might well yet
bite them in the arse :)

You butchers need competition and supermarkets do a great job
in keeping you honest.

Ginx, missed your last comment on Australia day-farmers, sorry. Archive is closed now.
If you could pass on my email to Les and Mazz I'd be happy to discuss water allocations with them. rojo84_10@hotmail.com
Posted by rojo, Monday, 17 March 2008 1:16:52 PM

I will pass your e-add to Les. I don't know if he will respond. We lost Mazz you see. At least he passed over doing what he loved, but the spirit had gone out of him. He was found in the paddock slumped over the wheel of the tractor. Massive heart attack. Kick rrr's upstairs Mazza!
________________

....OK. Rector's. It's an uphill grind with you.

(I'll leave you 'boys' to deal with the toxic meat theory.
Posted by Ginx, Saturday, 15 March 2008 3:57:57 PM)

...Nicky's view about red meat was that it was not good for us. OK?
THAT (Brownie's Honour), is what I meant. Yo' lot bein' de' experts an' all. YOU address that issue.

Then Belly said a little something about me. I responded to him NOT you.

But..,but, I do like tips!! (I knew about the bread thing;-I've been making my own bread for a long whiley).

Put up the tips, I doubt you can enlighten me on anything-I mean that-I have learned most of 'em, but they can help others.

He's one for you: Mince is usually sold in a plastic bags-yes? If making meat-loaf or rissoles, add the ingredients to the mince INTO the bag. Scrunch the top together, squeezing most of the air out;- hold top with one hand, knead the ingredients together with the other. If feeling semi-comatose with fatigue, snip a corner of the bag and squeeze blob's into your cassy dish. Cover with a pasta sauce and bake. "Lazy Slob's Meat Blob's"!!

Anyway,....the bag tip is good?!

Belly
Interesting to note that Easter Saturday has been deemed a 'public holiday'. Why ? No idea!

Just a few headaches caused by this ruling;
1. What was normally a day where one was paid at 1.25 time the normal rate now turns into 7.6 hrs for pub hol, then on top of this time and a half for the first 2 hours then double time there after.

So all in all almost triple time for this days trading.

2. Because shopping centers charge for extended hours trade, including pub hols we will most likely get a bill for what would normally be included within our weekly rent.

So you sit there as an employer and wonder if it is worth while opening given the fact that your staff will be the only ones getting paid.

I am not opposed to public holidays but where is the trade off.

And we all wonder why food is so expensive as some of you say.

Belly.As a unionist I would like your view on this?

General question.
How would everyone feel if they had to pay a surcharge on all groceries purchased on a public holiday?

Cheers
Happy easter

rehctub

happy easter to you as well.

Senate inquiry into meat marketing

Senator Bill Heffernan, Liberal Senator for NSW, announced today the establishment of a Senate inquiry into meat marketing.

The Senate Standing Committee on Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport will look at the need for effective supervision of national standards and controls and the national harmonisation of regulations applying to the branding and marketing of meat.

The inquiry will be advertised shortly in major newspapers calling for submissions from interested

stakeholders and public hearings will be scheduled. Submissions will close on May 4 and information about the inquiry can be accessed from the following website:
http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rrat_ctte/meat_marketing/tor.htm

Senator Heffernan raised his concerns in February during Senate Estimates.

"There is a view out there in the industry at the moment – and I am talking about the harmonisation of meat standards across Australia – that there is a racket that has developed with the replacement of lamb with

hogget and the better-bodied sheep and branding the meat as lamb and sending it to Sydney..."

Senator Heffernan said the Committee was prepared to receive confidential submissions so that witnesses can speak freely without fear of intimidation or retaliation.

"This has been flagged as a real concern from some stakeholders wishing to make a submission," he said

rehctub: "So you sit there as an employer and wonder if it is worth while opening given the fact that your staff will be the only ones getting paid."

So don't open on Easter Saturday. Have the day off, let your employees have the day off - I'm sure you'll all be happier for it.

That's what public holidays are for. It's your choice if you're silly or greedy enough to want to work if you don't have to.

'WoW' How clever is this guy. Mr Hetheton
This has been going on for 20 years. Only problem is that the consumer gets sucked in by the cheating retailer, then brands the fair dinkem ones as 'rip offs'.

I can remember being sworn at by a guy because I quoted $10.99 Kg for an orgainc chicken. He said to me "you're a f---ing rip off mate, I can buy one for $6 Kg". He was not interested in my explaination when I told him I paid $8.50 Kg wholesale.

I will await the outcome.

As for you CJ Morgan
If only running a business was as simple as either 'turning up or not!

There would actually be very little difference in quality, between
what is classified as lamb (baby teeth) and hoggett (first two
teeth starting to show.) You can put lambs into a feedlot, two
weeks later they go to the meatworks, any sign of teeth and its
into the mutton basket. Last year my darling processor did it
to me on 5 lambs, payment was then $1.20 per kg, one score 5 lamb
was 50c a kg! To me that is criminal, for if they at least made
an effort to onsell it as hoggett, but nope, without competition,
they clearly don't give a stuff.

I'm told that in NZ and the US they have a different way of deciding
as to what is lamb and what isn't, so what could well be classed
as mutton here, could still be called lamb there.

IMHO the meat industry needs to be investigated by some anti
corruption commission.

Hi all
Sorry for not getting back sooner, I am constrained by a badly sprained ankle which is making walking almost impossible.

Yabby, I have no argument about endocrinology and its role in human nature, only with your attitude in the form of attributing every comment which happens to disagree with the (more "intellectually capable") male point of view (yours) as in some way silly or ill-informed because one happens to be female. I should point out that my partner does not suffer from your presumed hormonal disorder of being female but subscribes to my views expressed here.

I don't buy meat (other than bones for my dogs for which I go to a butcher but (with all due respect) I hate the smell), but in principle I prefer to buy at "small businesses" whom the supermarkets are trying to drive out of business altogether (newspapers and magazines at newsagents, etc). Once we are all at the total mercy of supermarkets, I feel that we will regret it. I think it is the supermarkets who are forcing businesses like rehctub to trade on Easter Saturday too, if he/she happens to be in a shopping centre. A pharmacist friend in a large shopping centre in NSW, where I live, is forced to trade when Myer/Coles/Woolworths in the Centre do, yet another, in a small local "strip" centre doesn't. He is not given a choice, he tells me.

I think I said earlier in this thread that my partner used to buy pork rib bones (and they are only bones) for $1.99 per kilo at supermarkets, now they are selling the same thing as "barbecue pork ribs" - for $10.49 per kilo. Hence my trips to the butcher - even when the supermarkets discount the above (it's the principle). The area near where I live and where the nearest supermarkets are is really one of terrible socio-economic disadvantage, but the supermarkets there are more expensive than the same in other locations. Go figure!

I hope everyone is having a better Easter than I am!
Nicky

Well Nicky, I've been mixing concrete, main thing is that the
job is progressing. All the chocolate eggs and bunnies are long
gone :)

If your partner is informed about endocrinology then that is great.
But many men are smart enough to simply agree with their females alot
of the time, to stay in the good books, as it helps the sex life :)

I make points of reason, you are free to dispute them. Men will
admit that testosterone influences their behaviour. Similarly,
females are affected by female hormones. Many females have strong
mothering instincts which go well past any children. Pets, strays,
farm livestock, even boyfriends. So why should I not mention that?

If you happen to have money in a super fund, then its highly likely
that you too are one of the owners of Coles or Woolies. If you look
at their share registery, their top 20 shareholders are mostly
super funds. Its the same with banks.

As to pork ribs going up in price, they are actually pretty popular
amongst the Asian community. Butchers/supermarkets buy whole
carcasses and divide them up. Its really customers who decide what
they are prepared to pay for each cut. Their return for the whole
carcass is what matters in the end.

As Rehctub points out, its rising distribution costs that are the
problem, not the wholesale cost of meat. All those fees and charges,
overtime, workers comp, superannuation, holiday pay, rent and other
shopping centre fees, etc, are what is driving food prices up.

Belly tells us that workers should receive 15% super. Well that
has to be passed on and it is passed on to other workers in terms
of rising costs of food and other items. One person's pay rise is
another person's expense.

Hi again all
Yabby, once again I have no argument about hormones and effects, but I do think that you should prove them to be relevant to an argument before you use them. usually to the detriment of an opposing argument when you have no better one to advance. You could be right about my super fund (I should inform myself better than that, I know. It's a hormone thing, my partner knows all about that; my only concern is that it is what is known as an "ethical" fund. Since he doesn't work, I figure he has more time to get his head around that stuff).

I cannot imagine what the Asian community does with pork rib bones with nothing on them, but perhaps rehctub can provide some enlightenment.

At the risk of playing into the hands of certain contributors, I shall point out that that this is where the local meat processing sector and the live export industry are not even close to competing on a "level playing field" - but we've been there before, so I'll leave it at that.

Good luck with the concrete; don't get stuck!
Nicky

'
rehctub,
you said=

WoW' How clever is this guy. Mr Hetheton
This has been going on for 20 years. .

He was not interested in my explaination when I told him I paid $8.50 Kg wholesale.

I will await the outcome.

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rrat_ctte/meat_marketing/tor.htm
pale comments-

rehctub,

Well if anybody ought to know about this its good old uncle Bill.
They cant be serious giving him a role in anyway in this.
I will look more cloely at the terms of reference later but anybody who is the the slighest familar would understand you nobody be giving evidence while certain people are still around.

As for Bill hes been involved with sheep farming for many years. Mind you he prefers the cruel live export trade while sitting on the animal welfare board for god sake.

So there you have it folks Old Billy the kid the sheep farmer live exporter of sheep Animal Welfare board heads now has access to your statements at an enquiry into meat rorts.

You work it out.

Did anybody for shaved lamb?

apologies



The Question was= Anybody for shaved lamb ?

Yabby said

Many females have strong
mothering instincts which go well past any children. Pets, strays,
farm livestock, even boyfriends. So why should I not mention that?

pale comments.

Speaking of mutton dressed up as lamb how our Yabbs going.

No indeed dont get stuck in the concrete you have many places to travel yet in your next chapter The adventures of Yabby.

I am sure you are aware that Nicky has already said she does not have kids nor I so dont know where you get your theory from.

Now its a bit embaressing reading all these comments nobody has mentioned Nicky ankle so thought I should say something like.

Gee it must be difficult considering your used to putting your foot in it:)

So from All of us at pale Nicky
Break A leg!

( Sorry Yabby Couldnt resist.)

Just kidding Nicky thats an awful thing to happen to anybody at Easter especially.

Hope it heals soon

As Australia is going to be taken over by Halal Meat I thought we should discuss the impact this will have on us all at the check out=

OIC Eyes The USD580 Billion Global Halal Market Last Updated: Mar 18, 2008, 22:27

By The Halal Journal Team Mar 18, 2008, 22:15 DAKAR, 14th May 2008 - The Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) set its eyes on the USD580 billion global halal industry today and earmarked the Islamic Chamber of Commerce and Industry (ICCI) to look into the developing sector.

“The global halal industry is huge and yet there is no official authority that looks into the integrity of the halal mark on a global scale. Now there will be one,” said Sheikh Saleh in Dakar.

The OIC on the 11th Summit recognised the ICCI as the principle representative of the private sector in OIC member states as regards to values, halal and quality control, and urged all Islamic governments to facilitate the procedures for activating its mechanism.

Sheikh Saleh said that this initiative was expected to help develop and modernise the halal sector, which affects 1.8 billion Muslims worldwide, foster trade, and facilitate access to genuine halal products in both Muslim and non-Muslim countries.

“There is a need to ensure the entire supply chain of halal products is protected for the benefit of the Ummah and also those in the industry.

“ICCI’s mission for halal is not only to provide credible and professional halal certification but also to help develop existing halal certification bodies to be at par with global industry requirements,” he said.

Details of the ICCI’s global halal program will be unveiled at the third World Halal Forum, a business gathering of global industry leaders on 12th and 13th May in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, this year.

The third World Halal Forum themed ‘Sustainable Development through Investment and Integration’ is expected to draw some 1200 participant from over 40 countries. It will look into the issues of global halal standards, certification, Shariah compliance, investment and trade issues of the global halal industry.

Islamic Chamber of Commerce and Industry (EGYPT)

I don't see why you have a problem with that Gertrude. For meat
to be halal, the Koran says that Muslims should be kind to animals.

Clearly halal needs enforcing in the ME, you should not object to
that.

*but I do think that you should prove them to be relevant to an argument before you use them. usually to the detriment of an opposing argument when you have no better one to advance.*

Nicky, I have all sorts of great intellectual arguments that I can
make, but if you think that eating meat and farming livestock is
evil, then nothing will convince you, for its about how you feel,
not rational arguments. The pope tells me that abortion is evil,
but that is just his opinion, no more. The same applies to your
situation.

The question then arises as to why you and your band feel as you
do. How rational are those arguments and how much do emotions come
into it? Both influence our decision making, as you might know.

You have been unable to accept that pets and farm livestock are
not the same thing. We keep pets as companions, we eat livestock
for food. Call it barbaric as you do, etc, that is the reality.

That does not mean that we cannot care about those livestock,
or that they can have happy lives whilst alive. Its just that
one day they will be dinner, as you will be dinner for some species,
when you are recycled.

All the commments I have heard so far from the animal activists on
here, is that they treat their pets more like kids. Ok fair enough,
so you have mothering instincts, you have them, wether you have
kids or not. You have replacement kids in terms of pets.

The fact is, you might well know that I am correct in my analysis,
but you of course would never admit that to me :) Fair enough

Dear Yabby, your arguments are neither intellectual nor rational. My views regarding meat are not emotional, they are ethical. And I hope you are not accusing the Pope of having some sort of frustrated maternal instincts in condemning abortion.

Yes, I have admitted that I have difficulty with the fact that I have my dogs, and hypocrite that I am, I justify it by the fact that probably neither would be alive today if they were not with me; one came from a RSPCA shelter and the other from a dumped litter whose next step was being dropped into deep water. Likewise my hens, who came from a battery farm (not necessarily the deep water bit, but who knows?).

However, not having ever experienced the slightest maternal instinct, I can assure you that I regard none of them as kids (I can't stand kids and never could; they only get civilized when they get to about 4'6"). I also do not argue that some "producers" may care for their animals, but you must equally admit that there are many who don't - or are the court cases we read about figments of our imagination?

PALE, you greeted the news of my sprained ankle with all the banality I expected, I hope I can do the same for you one day.

Nicky

Nicky, being pretentious does not give your arguments any kind of intellectual
validity, it just means that you act like a snob :)

You are free to point out where my arguments are not rational. The world is
full of people with flawed philosophies. You have yet to show why your
claimed ethics are the correct ones.

Despite your claim of not being maternal, judging by your comments, you
clearly fuss over your pets like a doting mother. You worry about them
being injured, gourmet food is on the menu and they sleep on the bed.

Perhaps you are just in denial about your maternal instincts, despite the
pets copping as much fussing over, as many fuss about their kids.

Most farmers actually do care about their livestock, although I admit some
don’t. But then some of you girls have boyfriends who are not the best
either. We don’t suggest that they should be banned, or that they are all
evil. Life if full of imperfect people, making mistakes. The perfectionist
in you might have trouble with that, but that’s the reality.

Now Nicky, at Least we said 'something' about your ankle and you need to lighten up and get a sense oh humour.

Maybe it should have been your rist because on second thoughts its seems that gets you into more trouble =- at least on olo anyway:)

Yabby for God Sakes you sure have some hang ups . Why cant you except everybody is different. I am just the same as Nicky as far as gone darn kids are concerned.
Why do you think babies are smarter or more important that animals anyway? Just because Mummy told you I suppose.
A baby is of risk of growing up like you.

Whats wrong also with Nickys dog sleeping on the bed. My bird sleeps with me in her pillow case.
yabby said-
don't see why you have a problem with that Gertrude. For meat
to be halal, the Koran says that Muslims should be kind to animals.

Clearly halal needs enforcing in the ME, you should not object to
that.

pale replies
Ok yabby I will tell you because it wont be a secret much longer anyway= look at the links below = , then I will tell you whats wrong!You wont be able to read it all because you need the pass words but it will give you an idea.
http://www.halaljournal.com/

http://www.worldhalalforum.org/

No I dont have a problem with the programe because ITS OUR PROGRAME and PROPOSAL to them to turn Maylasia into the Halal Hub of the world. Its even OUR wording.
What I DO HAVE A PROBLEM with is two!! things have changed!!' Its all our bloody hard work. Even most of the wording!

It was "suposed to be slaughtering HERE in Australia"! using Gas once we perfected it and exporting the whole carcuss through to JAKIM.
So I DO have A BIG PROBLEM with it!
That IS the problem- One small change only.
One We wont tolerate. AFIC suggested I sue. MONEY or compensation IS NOT ON THE AGENDA -= because that wont help the Animals!

So Now you know Whats Wrong.

Not that you would care.

Hi all
Yabby, that is the thing about ethics; they are always a matter of debate, be they about meat, animals, abortion or anything else. And just as there are evil boyfriends, there are evil girlfriends as well, the one consistent thing about people is that they are different. Why else would we all be debating issues on this forum?

PALE, the only people who have issues with either my ankle or my wrist (note the "W") are PALE and its associates, most people manage to keep the debates reasonably to topic without personal insults. I don't know how much credit PALE can claim for the Malaysian initiatives either, it has been around for some years that I am aware of. PALE may have wanted it all centered in Australia, however, but typically, the Australian government, for reasons no doubt to do with too many Australian politicians being farmers who favour the live export trade, has "dragged the chain" with it and allowed the meat processing sector to fall over.

Yabby, perhaps you can provide some enlightenment on something else I'm currently having a look at - the use of electric/electronic prod devices, particularly in the transport and slaughter areas. Any information would be useful. For example, do they not burn and damage meat/hides?

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky said

I don't know how much credit PALE can claim for the Malaysian initiatives either, it has been around for some years that I am aware of. PALE may have wanted it all centered in Australia, however, but typically, the Australian government, for reasons no doubt to do.
Pale replies.
Yes thats right Nicky Its been around for years! Ever since 'we' put these proposals forward.
As for The Government they would have looked at anything that involved the private sector doing it this way. They are happy for offshore to invest here.
The only reason they have not done anything here is because of the push and pull from overeas and of course the people with vetted interests in the live shipping trade.
The Government have expressed interest to hear more about the proposals especially anything involving working with Aboriginal Elders andpeople in the regional areas.
After saying that its possibly too late to go back now and change some things that were done behind our back. We will simply have to wait and see.

Its really a no brainer to continue to work with people who go behind your back. We have more than enough to sue but as I said to Yabby thats not going to help the animals so I am not really interested.
That doesnt mean that two of the lawyers also directors of HKM wont however. Thats entiley up to them but my call is to bring it back to the table.
Its wasnt the Malyasian`s that fell short of their agreement but Australian Muslims and as they say.

JAKIM is very able to accredit whole send chilled Carcuss from Australia over there. This is just a last moment pure greed snatch for the jobs that go along with abattoir work.
Not a smart move considering they are walking away from humane meats world wide advertsing.
Many unsmart moves are Australian driven not the other side .

"For example, do they not burn and damage meat/hides?"

Nicky, these things are battery operated, how much voltage to you imagine they can inflict? They are not tazers.

Have you ever touched an electric fence? Have you ever had a zapp of static electricity after walking on acrylic carpet of something similar? None are capable of leaving a mark on human skin let alone burning a carcass.

*I'm currently having a look at - the use of electric/electronic prod devices, particularly in the transport and slaughter areas. Any information would be useful. For example, do they not burn and damage meat/hides?*

Sheesh Nicky, what a sheltered life some of you paper shufflers lead.
Has nobody ever jabbed you on the bum with one of those things? :)

Its only a 10 microsecond low impedance pulse, with a couple of
torch batteries inside the unit.

IMHO they save alot of trauma. I had one in the shearing shed for
those penning up. If you have ever seen pressers penning up, you
might understand.

The real problem is that you are as green as a cucumber on all these
topics, yet are trying to pass comment about things which you haven't
the foggiest. Perhaps somebody like PF, could take in paying guests
and teach you the 101s of farm life. You'd get your hands dirty doing
real work for a change, plus accidentaly touching the odd electric
fence and being chased by the odd boar, might be very character building for you :)

At least you could then comment on a little more
informed basis, then you are doing now.

Farm bootcamp for the city veggie brigade!

.

Pf and Yabby - I know nothing about prod devices, that's why I am asking. It does not necessarily point to a particularly sheltered existence. The sort of information I've been looking for is state-by state guidelines (possibly contained on Codes of Practice?) The only ones I have found say that they are to be "dry cell operated" and their use "kept to a minimum". On the other hand, through work I have done in prisons, I am familiar with the use of Tazer guns, and I would hate to think there is any resemblance.

In one state it is "recommended" that they are not to be used for "training purposes" for "sporting events" (specifically rodeos).

If the charge is so weak, then how is it that they have any effect, through wool/hide? I have seen film footage of them being used on the faces of some sheep on a truck who had nowhere to move to, and here I have seen transporters use them on sheep who also had nowhere to move to. The animals quite visibly jumped. PF, do I understand from your answer that you use them, and if so, what for? Yabby, on what part of the animal do you use them?

The next question from that is about electro-immobilization, can anyone tell me anything at all about that? The best information I've been able to find so far is that is can be used, for example, on cattle during de-horning, castrating and spaying, and that it paralyzses the animal but does not render it unconscious.

Again any information would be useful. I have read through the Meat Processing Industry Training Package (470-odd pages of the damn thing) but could find no mention of these devices.

Cheers
Nicky

I will try and relate my answer to something that may be familiar to you. Acrylic carpets usually cause this problem for people wearing synthetic clothing, for me it happens just vacuuming my carpet (ahh, just another reason to avoid that machine), you touch something metal or go to open a door and zapp!

Now did it really hurt? Not if you if think about it, it was the shock or surprise that made you recoil.

Take electric fences for example. If you are prepared for it (and I rarely am) you can grab hold of the wire and feel the pulse of electricity going through you. No it isnt that pleasant but it is not painful. The clever pigs around here have even figured that out. Its when they accidentally come into contact with it and get that quick zap that frightens them and then they run off squealing.

Thats how the prods work. A quick zap that gets the animal moving in the opposite direction of where the shock came from. Overuse of the prod will result in the animal becoming accustom to the shock and be of little use because it is just not that painful.

No I do not have a need to use a prod but I have seen plenty of occassions when they have been put to good use and ultimately to the benefit of the animal.

Thanks very much for that, PF. I get a shock sometimes when I touch some metal objects - even my car on occasion. Do these things come in varying degrees of power, or different types for different animals? I did see one of the horses where I go riding (at a friend's farm walk into an electric fence, and although he was highly displeased, he didn't appear to be hurt at all, more frightened than anything.
A meat worker friend once told me that pigs are so intelligent that they fight much harder than other animals at slaughter, they seem to have a degree of insight - I don't know how true that is though.
If you have any ideas of where I might look for guidelines about these things it would be really useful.
Thanks again!
Cheers
Nicky

So Nicky, why are you doing so much investigating? Are you writing
some kind of reports for AA or another organisation?

Surely if you people want to pass informed comment, the least you
could do is have some practical hands on experience, when it
comes to livestock. AFAIK just about the lot of you don't have
the foggiest and no real experience at all!

Now if I was your obstetrician, would it not be fair enough that
I had some practical experience, before I was let loose to deal
with your problems?

Reading reports is simply not enough to make people good obstetricians
and its not much different, if you want to get serious, when it comes
to understanding and commenting about farming and farm livestock.

Hi Yabby
Relax - none of the above, it's just a matter of curiosity. And what obstetricians do is a bit of a mystery to me, as you can imagine, but I doubt if using electric/electronic prodding devices on animals would require the same degree of academic knowledge or expertise.

So what if anything can you tell me?
Cheers
Nicky

*Relax - none of the above, it's just a matter of curiosity*

Oh I am always relaxed lol, but I do doubt your honesty here.

Call it male intuition :)

I remind you that understanding animals involves more then stock
prodding. After 30 years, I still learn something new every day.

Prodders are like anything, they have a use when used sensibly.
But then there is hardly a household appliance or tool that the
same can't be said for.

I don't let people on this place use them, unless I have explained
the basics and appealed to their common sense. PF is correct,
livestock will move in the opposite direction when prodded.

Its best to always first try quiet handling, but in a noisy shearing
shed, that is not always so easy. Well designed sheds, based on
good animal psychology, can work magic.

As to the prodders, yup, on the rump is where to use them, if you
do.

Now what about this course on improving your education of the real
farm world on PFs place? I am sure that her charges would be
reasonable and you have soooo much to learn.

Well I have just seen some of the best Animal Welfare work on this forum. Its only when people start to make enquiries for themselves they are on the right track.
Yabby You know very well prodders can be over used and the voltage tampered with. Look at the trouble we have had with coyboys at rodoes.
I am probably not much help to Nicky at the moment but I will do all I can to come up with some examples.

I cant remember the legal voltage for cattle but its higher than horses.

Many horses have been scared with overuse of prodders.
Just trying to recall where the last lot of people were charged. It was some time ago.

There used to be a fantasic stock squad guy in NSW many years ago who would book the blokes at the sale yards.

Now I am sure there was a different voltage for large and smaller animals.

You have asked a very sensible question and I am embarresed I just dont recall.
A long time ago much was made of these over powered prodders but your right we dont hear much about them these days.
Interesting topic your expolying.
RSPCA somewhere charged a guy for overuse. The horse was marked all over.
I will try to find the old codes for you.
Give me a few days and Nicky - Good Work. Original thinking.

Problem is as you know not enough to carry out the inspections.

Hope your on the mend.

Nicky
I cant find what i am looking for but will try to hunt it down in a few days. The link on pigs is also interesting. Down towards the bottom
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=electric+prodders+cruelty+animals+charged+&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU

http://www.norodeo.org/johnhill.htm
http://www.norodeo.org/marrabel05.htm

http://www.vivausa.org/campaigns/pigs/report.htm

Thanks very much for all that, everyone. Yabby, I can't think of anywhere I would rather spend time than on a farm, and I wish I could. And I swear to you, I am not writing a report on this for anyone; in fact at present I'm not writing reports at all. Believe it or not, the work I am involved in at the moment has to do with lecturing, prison research, forensic and mental health tribunals (people), disability issues and guardianship matters .... don't ask.

When I don't know about something at least you could give me credit for asking! Your information was great too, thanks. But to clarify - if you are in a shearing shed with very woolly sheep, is such a device even effective? PALE, horses do not have as tough hides as cattle, I suspect, and are also much flightier animals. Does anyone know if they are used in horse racing at all? PALE, if you can think of the case, or even the RSPCA officer, that would be great; if it's NSW I may be able to track him/her down even. Does anyone know anything about electro-immobilization too?

And PALE, thanks for your good wishes. I'm hoping to get it Xrayed tomorrow, because it may have some fractures, which would account for the PAIN!

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky
If it’s swollen it might be hair line factures which is just great for arthritis. Often it doesn’t even show in x-rays. Although bad bruising can be even worse long term. Did you do it horse riding?
Regarding the prodders of course like anything else we would have to be looking at weight. If a small child runs into a cattle fence it clearly has a great effect than a beast. This is the second time in a year I have needed the information that I once used to know. Although things change. I *think they took some of the old battery prodders off the market.
Last year when the Gold Coast Casino held a Rodeo I called the local police and asked them were they supervising the use of prodders and other equiptement.

The guy thought I was mad and pulling his leg. So much for the new pledge from the State Police Commissioners to educate the trainee’s .Must says I was impressed however by the service. A return phone call from police head quarters asking us were we going there :)

So I too require the information to write and request police attend each rodeo to ensure codes are enforced etc etc.

Yabby could probably do with a lesson in horse riding. So when your better we should drop in and teach him :)

BTW Speaking of prisons did you know several are growing and doing their own slaughtering? Bit of a worry IMOP. Don’t know how you feel about it.
Perhaps later on we could look into it a bit more.

With all the Animals now in feed lots and intensive there is a huge argument for a veggie diet more than ever. If we don’t sit back down with the Muslims I think the veggie fast food stores might be my next step.

It would be a real eye opener to the public to see Animals being slaughtered with their free video and member of the common decency club.
I will try to get your info by friday .

Nicky it has always been illegal to use them in horse racing.
Long before they became a tool for livestock use they have been used in the training of horses, but very long term disqualifications take place if caught.
A racing person I think the crooks may use them, a very Small minority, it is not to inflict pain but the shock.
It was higher voltage and aimed at getting the horse to react to the whip .
I have handled many cattle hides more than you would care to know and never seen a burn not one , but here in NSW barbed wire marks are on near every one.
Yabby is right farmers do not harm animals just because they can.
In truth, sorry but honestly true cattle prods do more good than harm.
I am a ham radio operator and know a little about electronics, am hugely amused by the thought those dry cell battery's could burn flesh!
A tazer is a far different thing but I no idea who would use them on cattle or sheep.

Nicky

http://www.csiro.au/people/Drewe.Ferguson--ci_pubHist-1.html

Warner R, Ferguson DM, Cottrell J, Knee B. 2007. Acute stress induced by the use of electric prodders pre-slaughter causes tougher beef meat. Australian Journal of Experimental Agriculture. 47: 782-788.

Blache D, Ferguson DM. 2005. Towards improving welfare of farmed sheep: simple assessment and heritability of emotional reactivity. From Darwin to Dawkins: the science and implications of animal sentience. Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre, London. Compassion in World Farming Trust, London.

Blanche D, Ferguson DM. 2005. Boost for lamb survival - select for calm ewes. Shaw SE, Andrews-Baxter R. (eds). Agribusiness sheep updates. Parmelia Hilton hotel, Perth. Dept. of Agriculture, Perth.

Drake KA, Ferguson DM, Hinch G, Cook CJ, Blache D. 2005. Development of a fear potentiation model to assess anxiety in sheep. From Darwin to Dawkins: the science and implications of animal sentience. Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre, London. Compassion in World Farming Trust, London.

http://www.publish.csiro.au/?paper=EA05155

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:tYyi65fZtnIJ:www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/Attachments/EGIL-52F6Z8/%24FILE/AnimalWelfareStdNo11.pdf+reasearch+csiro+electric+prodders+animals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=au

I understand this is not what you requested and I am trying to track the information down on the cases RSPCA have charged men within both industries.
Speaking of pain try a bundy and mersyndol.

*I think the veggie fast food stores might be my next step.
It would be a real eye opener to the public to see Animals being slaughtered with their free video and member of the common decency club.*

Ah Gertrude, so you plan to sabotage our meat industry with
emotion, same tactic as the Catholics!

We'll have to protest outside your shop, show people pictures
of what Gertrude will look like when the maggots move in and
chew up her carcass one day. That will put them clean off
any thoughts of dinner :)

.

Well how we got from meat prices to prodders is a mystery but all I can tell you is that they hurt like you know what. Unless of course you are a cow or bullock.

You see we are talking about an animal that is usually 5 to 10 times our weight, leans against a barbed wire fence without flinching and gets it's head trapped in a brace just to have a needle in it's rear end.

None of which realy hurts, so it all relevent. Yes prodders do hurt the animal but it's no more than like us getting a pin prick really.

As for the comment on 'what do Asians do with pork bones'. Well, we are talking about a race that can make a soup out of a dish cloth if they wanted to and we would enjoy it. No racisim intended.

With regards to the 'Hogget v Lamb' debate.

Recent changes to the carcase grading standards mean that a lamb can still be classed as a lamb unless the first two teeth have broken the skin. Prior to this if the teeth were evident in the jaw they were classed as hoggets.

My advise. Avoid cheap lamb as farmers don't usually sell lamb cheaply, agents don't cut commisions, truckies don't usually reduce their rates and butchers try not to work for nothing.

Put in english, there is no such thing as 'good lamb, cheap'!

So think long and hard before you buy that $3.99Kg side of lamb!

What is all the fuss about lamb anyway? Hogget taste so much better!

Thanks all for more great information - especially, PALE those links of yours. One was a study by CSIRO which tested the meat of cattle on which one group had been subjected to prods and the other hadn't. It was a bit scientific, but it seemed clear that the stress the devices cause the animal affect the meat. Any thoughts, Rehctub?

Belly, thanks for the info on horse racing. How does using a prod make the horse respond to a whip? I got lost somewhere in between.

PALE, one of your excellent links was the "Standard" which is what Codes of Practice seem to be called in Tasmania for the sale and transport of bobby calves, and it is quite clear there at least that these devices and others should not be used on calves. So I had a look at some of the other Tasmanian "Standards" (Road Transport and Saleyards specifically), and they say that their use "should be kept to a minimum". Interestingly, Tasmania also states that their use is prohibited in "training" for sporting events - rodeos, I guess. But typically - the prohibition there seems to be voluntary too.

I think I now need to look for the CoPs for other states (bearing in mind that they are voluntary only).

With regard to PF's comment - what do they regard as "lamb" in the Middle East? Yabby, I thought you were going to give me the benefit of your wisdom about that.

Having the foot X-Rayed tomorrow, I've been on the Mersyndol, (and almost anything else that looked like it might work) but can't do the Bundy 'cause (as well as my other miserable habits (or otherwise), Yabby, sorry about this) I don't drink. Now, do try and cheer up and be nice, there's a good lad. We were doing so well there.

Cheers
Nicky

*Avoid cheap lamb as farmers don't usually sell lamb cheaply,*

That might be the case in the Eastern States Rehctub, certainly
not in Western Australia. Due to our lack of competition,
meatworks here do as they like. As I pointed out with one
of my lambs last year, in the end they paid me $16.85 for a
33 kg prime lamb carcass, which had just popped its teeth. Do
you really think it was any different in eating quality, to
other lambs?

No wonder that my neighbour has just sold every sheep on his
property and is going all crop. Screw farmers long enough and
they react eventually. That is why we are trucking in milk from
South Australia to WA right now.

The meat industry in WA is a scandal, that is why we need the
live trade. They are the only honest players in the market.
Without them, things would be even worse.

Nicky, perhaps you should try Getrude's suggestion of the Bundy.
Your posts then might be just as rational as her posts :)

rehctub any debate in this forum about meat becomes one about animal welfare.
Also live animal exports and meat vs vegetarians
Nicky no intent to be rude stingers, that is battery stingers in horse racing are hidden inside the whip.
In training the horses is whipped and stung, during a race the horse fears the whip much more and if it is waved gives its best.
Lets make no mistake, it is cruel but highly unusual to find anyone doing it.
Some horses are worth a million dollars and the the time spent bared from the industry is long.
Yes like every thing some would do it but cattle and sheep once had a whip or sharp prod to help them up the shute.
I just do not think animal cruelty is as bad as we hear in our forum, nore do I think meat exports can ever take the place of all live exports.
I will refrain from describing the thousands of home kill deaths in this country every year yabby has done that many times.
PF is my type of animal welfare activist.

Three questions pls Rehctub.

How does a little lady trace back meats origin from plate to paddock?
Tags numbers are not issued per cut just carcass.

Do you know many other butchers who would be interested in working direct with a plant in WA if we could fund it?

Are all your cuts pre stunned or are some slaughtered Halal?

PF
What is all the fuss about...?

Pale

Agreed just so long as it’s cooked slowly otherwise it’s as touch as old Yabby :)

Belly, I am just wondering why you think whips are ok.

Nicky said
With regard to PF's comment - what do they regard as "lamb" in the Middle East?

Pale comments
Nicky you might find it interesting that many moons ago when the cruel live animal trade began their argument back then was people they have to feed these poor third world countries. They argued Australians never ate Hogget and never would :)

Yabbs said
Ah Gertrude, so you plan to sabotage our meat industry with
Emotion, same tactic as the Catholics!

Gertrude replies

Perhaps it’s the Bundy Yabbs, but other than remaining silent after five segments on 60 minutes about the barbaric cruelty of live animal exports I just can’t make the connection :) _


As a business owner Rehctub would tell you that supplying his customers with good tasting quality food while making a profit is what it’s all about.

Hard times are coming so we Aussies must learn to think outside the square. As you know that’s my special skill :)

Making buying healthier and cheaper cuts hip is part of good marketing as this country goes into a recession down the track.

*If I were a Mum I might buy from my local butcher his veggie and Ham burgers =along with my scripts or guilds as you might call them to save for my kid’s school shoes.

Yep the common decency club* education program has a real ring to it :)

Belly

Woops, I didn’t see you there hiding between the men.

Rehctub Might tell you that Good Quality Meat is a direct result of Animal Welfare as stress and mistreatment result in tough meat.=

http://www.meatupdate.csiro.au/data/MEAT_TECHNOLOGY_UPDATE_00-3.pdf

http://www.csiro.au/news/mediarel/mr1998/mr98111.html

He might also tell you Live Exports affects our supply, prices and quality here in Australia.

Belly said
Nicky no intent to be rude stingers that is battery stingers in horse racing are hidden inside the whip.
In training the horses is whipped and stung, during a race the horse fears the whip much more and if it is waved gives its best.
Let’s make no mistake; it is cruel but highly unusual to find anyone doing it…..
.pale comments

You’re wrong Belly it’s just so few are checked and it’s used in training a lot. Only a Bully would use such tactics.

Belly said
I just do not think animal cruelty is as bad as we hear in our forum, more do I think meat exports can ever take the place of all live exports.

Pale replies
Belly based on what? Would you mind sharing your wealth of knowledge with the rest of us pls the RSPCA would welcome any evidence of being proved wrong I am sure?

http://www.rspca.org.au/campaign/fairgo_petition.asp

http://www.rspca.org.au/campaign/liveexport.asp

http://www.rspcavic.org/campaigns_news/campaigns_handle_with_care.htm

Belly said=

I will refrain from describing the thousands of home kill deaths in this country every year yabby has done that many times.

Pale comments-
That’s mighty big of you Belly. Personally given the choice I would “much” prefer to see Animals Slaughtered on the farm than chased and stressed and transported before slaughter. Most farmers have a pretty good idea where to place a bullet.

PF is my type of animal welfare activist.

PF is doing a very good job in the pork industry and should have far more support from all Animal Welfare Organizations. She’s the face of Australians human treatment of small farm animals.

You know what Belly, even if cruelty and stress to animals didn’t effect the meat quality- which it does, I`m just wondering what type of bully would not even give a dam.
Any idea?

But it seemed clear that the stress the devices cause the animal affect the meat. Any thoughts, Rehctub?
Yes nicky this can be the case.

A stressed animal has a build up of toxins (lactic acid) in the blood which when slaughtered causes high PH levels, which in turn cause the meat to be dark when cut. It is known within the industry as a ‘dark cutter’.

Interesting is the fact that this meat, although not appealing to look at, actually eats well in most cases however it has a shorter shelf life than regular meats.

If you have visited an abettor you will note that the cattle pass through a shower arrangement. Rather than to wash them, as is the perception, this devise actually is there to calm them down much like if they were out in the rain.

Belly
As I pointed out with one
of my lambs last year, in the end they paid me $16.85 for a
33 kg prime lamb carcass, which had just popped its teeth. Do
you really think it was any different in eating quality, to
other lambs?

Yes I do as this beast was at least 1 year old, had cut teeth and as such is no longer a lamb’. Now whether it is better eating than lamb, well that’s comes down to individual taste.

Just for the record, as hogget I would have paid $122.10 for it landed to my shop.

You have been ripped off mate

Three questions pls Rehctub.

How does a little lady trace back meats origin from plate to paddock?
Tags numbers are not issued per cut just carcass.

All carcases are inspected after slaughter for signs of disseise and condemned if found to be effected. Some prime cuts (MSA) are DNA tested and can be traced back even after cooking.

All carcases delivered to shops have tags on them, which contain bar codes and other information for trace back purposes. They are also stamped and heavy penalties are in place if these are not evident.

Do you know many other butchers who would be interested in working direct with a plant in WA if we could fund it?

Sorry, but from the picture yabby has painted who would want to go there. Perhaps Port Arthur was a bad choice for a penal colony hey!

Are all your cuts pre stunned or are some slaughtered Halal?

I don’t sell Halal however it is available but like most food items is open to substitution. Much the same way that organic meats are often substituted.

So in essence I guess all my cuts are 'pre stunned' . I don't mean to offend you but the majority of shoppers are price motorvated and don't care much for animal welfare. Unless of cause it is their pet. Many people today treat their pets better than the children. Sad but true.

*You have been ripped off mate*

My point exactly! What goes on in the West Australian meat industry
is a scandal, that should be investigated by some corruption
commission.

The local meat industry knows that it has farmers by the proverbial
testicles and can do what it likes. The lack of competition and
tyranny of distance protects them. That is why WA farmers support
the live trade. Its the only area where there is any kind of
competition going on.

Well Yabby, you could always move east :)

Hehe, not likely PF :) West Australia has far too many other good
points, to keep me here. It's Australia's go ahead state in
most ways, apart from processing of farm products. There are
historical and political reasons for that.

Alot would change, if Kim Chance got off his proverbial arse, just
a little bit.

Lots is happening and change will happen lol, even if we have to
drag them by their necks. A corruption inquiry into the meat
industry, IMHO would make the the AWB story look like a Sunday
school picnic.

You should know that I love a challenge :)

.

Have we seen Dave's farm? it is about free range pig farming in I think England, and just about how pigs breed and lived in the NSW southern highlands.
He will go broke, sorry hope not but borrowed money is not wise in starting something new.
That is how pigs are farmed around here too.
Just a few but yes it is better but rehctub has got it right price is first concern for many.
Now if we could buy yabbys sheep? gladdy pay twice that price you are indeed a victim.
I just will not get into a slanging match, not worth it, but reality is often far from what some of us think it is,and I have every right to think as I wish.
Never said whips are ok, in fact my crimes are mostly inferred and untrue.
Deliberately so, it changes nothing my views remain not far from most in meat and live animal exports.
But if we are to be trained to say other than what we think so as not to fall out with one group what value has truth got?
Just a thought, NSW ABC radio this morning a cattle breeder spoke of green cattle, basically clean and cruelty free I would pay a premium for that but as rehctub said SUBSTITUTION takes place, how do we know it is truly that meat?

Hi all
Some really interesting comment there. Belly, I'm with PALE on the whips - who checks the trainers? "Bullies" is quite an understatement. And I'm with PALE too on the feeding of the "poor masses" in the "underdeveloped countries" - are we not talking about the people who hold a lot of the world to ransom with oil? One is Dubai, which just brought the QEII to turn into a floating hotel. PALE is possibly also right about farm slaughtering - providing it IS done with a well-placed bullet, based on what I've seen go on on trucks and in saleyards. They aren't checked either (see the story about the current case of the goats in the northern territory, for example).

For the record, I also admire very much how PF cares for her animals.

PALE, one question - you said "stunned or halal". Halal slaughter, as I understand it, is carried out in Australia WITH stunning in some form, electrical with sheep, is it not? The cases in Victoria were to do with kosher, not halal.

If Yabby feels that the meat industry in WA is so appalling, perhaps he should be talking to people like Roger Fletcher and Graeme Haynes; they would be the people to start with, then the relevant government department, and he could (convincingly, is his efforts on this forum are any indication) point clearly to what he says are the "rip-offs". As for using the term "live exporters" and "honesty" in the same sentence - they would be the greatest oxymorons we could ever hope to see here (I'll resist the temptation to say "from a moron"). Even the mortality reports published by AQIS are based on ship's captains' figures ... need I say more?

I'm going to start a new discussion about the Minister for Local Government in WA intervening in the appeal of the "Al Kuwait case". Highly inappropriate and improper behaviour for a government Minister, and suggestive of undue influence over the WA government by the live export industry.

Cheers
Nicky

*If Yabby feels that the meat industry in WA is so appalling, perhaps he should be talking to people like Roger Fletcher*

Nicky, your total naivety about business is very sweet, but
to put it bluntly, you really don't have a clue :)

I remind you that these guys are quite clear, they are not
a charity, they buy their sheep as cheaply as possible!

Nearly every week I compare the mutton price in Katanning or
Midland, with that of Dubbo, where Roger has his other works.
It might be 90c or 1$ a kg in WA, 1.80-2 $ in Dubbo, those
are roughly the rates right now, IIRC.

I'm told that Roger buys around 40'000 sheep a week in WA,
say at 20kg each, so lets say 20 bucks without skins.
His Eastern States price, due to competition, would be close
to double that. My back of the envelope calculation tells
me that he would be picking up an extra 800'000 $ a week on
those figures, which is not to be sneezed at.

Roger Fletcher would be thanking Allah every day that Monty
House convinced him to come to WA !

Nicky it is near time I left the thread interested in the subject but debate sometimes hurts.
No push over I can handle it but how could you ask about stingers then after I told you know more than me in just a few posts?
yabby is near the truth, in fact much nearer than most who post on these animal welfare threads most of the time.
I can slug it out in front of 400 workers or 10 bosses but debate on these subjects here is not without mud slinging.
What lead you to believe I supported the use of whips?

I read every post, look I have been censored for flaming you, but was referring to another poster.
I see you subjected to insults as bad as those I get, time and again I side step threads or leave early to avoid people.

I think the use of stingers in racing is wrong, always.
Whips are controlled by law miss use of them is wrong, refusal to use them could kill some one at times , cattle can kill.
I saw PF s poll, even wanted to fill it in , always thought it would be unwise.
I am not a bully not unaware of animal needs want better practices less cruelty but know some animal welfare groups are far better than others.
Nicky you and I are from different sides of this debate, but I truly thought you would not use fallacy's and wrong information as debating tools.
stingers are rarely used in racing, those who do get 6 months maybe more for that crime away from racing and income.
This thread was about what meat we buy and why, fair enough we knew it would spread but is the future of such debates open debate? do we learn what others think?
Those who think different than us have every right to do so, even those who display some truly weird ideas here.
But to farm a post, hoping to find something to twist into another shape is a symptom of something else.

Rehctub
Umm, Thanks but once the Carcass is cut that’s it – isn’t it.

I mean you cant actually trace each cut can you?

So we can trace a carcass but not really a cut once it`s left the butcher shop.

Rehctub.said

Sorry, but from the picture Yabby has painted who would want to go there. Perhaps Port Arthur was a bad choice for a penal colony hey!

Pale replies
Thanks for your reply. I didn’t mean go there. I just meant order direct from there.

Fletcher has no competition so you’d buy at half the price your paying most probably now.

It could be sold on to other butchers. Don’t worry thinking out loud.
You didn’t offend me.

fyi http://www.halakindmeats.com/

you rehctub said

Sorry, but from the picture Yabby has painted who would want to go there. Perhaps Port Arthur was a bad choice for a penal colony hey!

pale replies.

Yes I am surprised they let him out at all:)

Speaking of = Yabbs Said

What goes on in the West Australian meat industry
is a scandal, that should be investigated by some corruption
commission.

Pale replies
Your priceless Yabby Hilarious!

Yabby said
Alot would change, if Kim Chance got off his proverbial arse, just
a little bit.

Pale replies.
Yabby don’t you get it yet. Kim Chance is doing what he’s paid for. Protecting the low life shipping Agents by keeping live exports strong.
AWB operate from there and Elders is their head office.

Trust Me I know

Nicky Can you remember which post I put that Enquiry into WA Abattoirs on?

We should show it to Rehctub.Speaking of shaved cuts-

Whats happening abaout Billl The Dill and the Enquiry PF mentioned.

I think that would be a walk in the park if you can help.

Hows the foot?

Nicky said-

PALE, one question - you said "stunned or halal". ...
pale replies
Umm Sorry Which cases in Victoria ? My fault cant keep up sorry.

Re Halal pre stunned Question. Well Nicky Yes thats correct BUT more and more plants are not pre stunning. Muslims are using Kosher as an example.
Quite rightly too I would suggest because Kosher is indeed the 'most' cruel.
I am going to be honest with you.

I am not a hundred percent sure there isnt some argument about which is the best method.

There are some real horror stories when the stun gun goes wrong.

I finally got RSPCA National to agree to meet with AFIC heads and others.

Trouble Is I cant see it being much help unless Animals Australia attend as well and they have always refused.

Do you know where Trish Brown is.? We need some others to attend along with RSPCA National Otherwise I am waisting my time.

Glenyse is more capable of sitting down and talking with these people than RSPCA. She has quite a bit of knowledge as you know and years of facts and events in her head.

Can you think of anybody else if I can get Bidda etc? Bidda And Glenyce would be good and anyone she wanted to bring is ok.
The head Rabbi has also agreed to attend so it could be an interesting meeting with maybe some good outcome for the animals.


Any advise or suggestions would be mostly appreciated Nicky. I dont suppose you might like to look at this as a project of your would you?
We would be available to advise you and I would give you all the contacts to set this up. We cant cope with the shear volume of work to be honest and this oportunity for the Animals should not be missed.
We would even through in some plant owners and a good lawyer to assist you at our cost- your fairs and expenses.

Nicky said
"Al Kuwait case". ...

pale Umm, Well lets tie it in with Bills Enquiry that PF posted

Yabbsaid

Nicky, I remind you ...
Palecomments
Ar, correct Yabby.

It’s another example of how this industry has been made totally dysfunctional to suit the agenda of a 'few'

What Nicky needs to know is the buyers in ME are 'anything but' mean or poor.

In truth is Nicky because of the Governments ‘support’ of those few companies "with invested interests and infrastructure"-
and also including huge subs and grants along with 'your tax' it is The Government who are keeping the farmers from the enormous oportunitys of dealing with their Muslim buyers and getting a even better price!

The Government will NOT support program’s to introduce ME and Muslim people to Australian Farmers at grass roots level.

Oh No, of course not, because that would be telling.

Telling The Australian Farmers they have been ripped off.

"A Well 'oiled' system."

The truth is Nicky there are plenty of good offers that farmers are missing out on.

Why? Because they wont think outside the square the live in so rely on the markets =

Where of course their stock is purchased by you guessed it the Agents for the shipping markets.

Now you would 'think' by now they may have woken up to the fact that the shipping agent or buying agents must be making a killing.

Get rid of the shipping agent or buying agents for the ships and see how much more the farmer will get.

It really is that simply.

However we must do it ourselves through the industry because pigs might fly before the Government loose their great party donations from their favorite mates in the Industry.

This is why lobbying the Government is useless - because they are in bed with the Live Animal Shipping Agents
Big Time.

All the farmers have got to do to get a better price is talk with ME reps direct and invite them to their farms.

All thats stopping this is the Government in bed with the Live Exporters.

So we must go and talk direct to ME.

The Saudi will sort the Government.

Cheers

Rehctub
Umm, Thanks but once the Carcass is cut that’s it – isn’t it.

I mean you cant actually trace each cut can you?

So we can trace a carcass but not really a cut once it`s left the butcher shop.

Most people have no doubt heard the term 'MSA' beef.

This stands for Meat Standards Australia and was introduced as a scheme to allow the sellers to guarantee the product. Not quite that simple but this is another topic.

As part of the proceedures all MSA beef carcases are DNA tested by law.

This testing was introduced so as to be able to trace the origin of the meat should there be a fault, also for detecting substitution.

This testing can be performed even after a piece of meat has been cooked, cooled, even frozen in an un-cooked or cooked state.

Hope this helps to explain.

Hi all
Made it back again. Belly, once again, I truly apologize, and I do value the information you have provided. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough about horseracing; I thought what you were saying was that it might be going on.

Yabby, no-one in Queensland, Victoria or NSW can fix the meat industry in WA, it's people like you who can. If it's a scandal, then why not talk to the people who can, and have a will to fix it?
BTW, it was SO nice of you to call me sweet. Thank you.

PALE, I don't know where Trish Brown is, I'm afraid - isn't she in WA somewhere? Glenys does have a Bachelor of Science degree, but that's about the limit of my knowledge there too - sorry! Have you tried approaching them again? If you can think of where you posted that link to the WA meat enquiry, I'd be really grateful if you could post it again, because I can't find it either. Why do whoever are the farmers' lobby groups not work on this, because they must see that the live export industry is a dying one. I do think you would find Bidda Jones very sympathetic though - I think her email is bjones@rspca.org.au.

Have you read the Australian (transport)report on the Handle with Care site (I warn you, it's huge and I haven't finished it yet!). There isn't much I can do, working full time and not being able to travel much (not just because I am temporarily crippled either - no broken bones, just ligament damage, sprain and severe bruising, thanks for asking). I probably wouldn't be a whole lot of use anyway because I don't know enough, and between work and trying to finish a doctorate I have enough troubles.
Belly - I did do PF's survey, but I don't know if I did it right. I thought it was really worthwhile.

Nite all
Nicky

Thanks Nicky no offense taken ,yes some in racing ,like life are crooks and a few very few would use them.
And yes PF the idea was worth while , but most pork is imported I know of many who went broke but a few run small free range and it pays wages.
yabby sheep? yes he is a victim yes we would love to buy it here but it will not happen without a new player in WA.
That British pig farm, Dave's farm is on lifestyle both carriers Sunday I think well worth a look.

Belly the survey IS worthwhile and the success of it is being put to good use at present.

For those that are interested, the Ministerial enquiry has supported the definition of free range pork as supplied on the APL website so that is good news for the fight for truth in labelling.

Lots of other news in the pipline as a result of that survey.

Belly, yes there is an incredible amount of pigmeat imported into australia but it is not sold as pork. It can only be used in cooked, boneless products like ham and bacon.

rehctub

Thanks for that.

Actually I was on about something else. It will require a whole post to address it. My next comment.

Nicky

http://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/hansard/hans35.nsf/NFS/947c9d2bdc1db86748257081002561f6

Re Trish- Last I heard PAACT.

Heather from RSPCA and Bidda would be attending.

Nicky said
Have you tried approaching them again?
pale replies

Yup- Got the standard rely= No rely

Nicky
Why do whoever are the farmers' lobby groups not work on this, because they must see that the live export industry is a dying one.

Pale Replies

Woo No Nicky No. Its very important you understand whats 'really' going on.

To make sure you are talking about the people I *Think you are May I ask to whom you are refering?

Are you refering for example to Farmers Federations are Pastural Groups etc?

I will wait for your answer before I reply so we understand each other clearly.

Thanks For Biddas latest email.

Nicky said

Have you read the Australian (transport)report on the Handle with Care site (I warn you, it's huge and I haven't finished it yet!).

pale replies

I am ashamed to say not yet. Could you post the link pls.

Thats a big job you have and I look forward to hearing it. I say hearing because i will get Antje to read it to me as I drive.

I understand you cant attend the meeting.

Think we should get something on paper between all parties first- ie Muslim Heads and Rabbi Heads.

PF Well done and do share any news with us when your able. Could you post ther link I went onto the APL site but could only find the Enquiry into pork imports.

Yabbs said

I'm told that Roger buys around 40'000 sheep...
My back of the envelope calculation tells
me that he would be picking up an extra 800'000 $ a week on
those figures, which is not to be sneezed at.

Pale replies

Well? What does that tell you you 'ought' to be doing?

Look on the brighter side- You would even have me to help you do it.

What Could possibly go wrong:)

Hehe Gertrude, a starry eyed dreamer like yourself would last about
3 minutes in the meat processing industry. These are cold blooded
rational Darwinians and they spit out people like you before
breakfast :)

Nicky, I did not say that the ES should solve WA's problems.
Lots is happening here that I don't even mention, we'll see where
it leads. If T&R finally get their approval to fire up later this
year, then Fletcher for the first time might have some real
competition in WA, the same for Wammco and others who are fast
asleep, as they face no real competition.

The problem goes back to when Govt ran the industry and it was
illegal for anyone to export lamb but the Govt. The industry
was deregulated in 2000 when Monty House was Minister. He brought
in Fletcher and held his hand to set him up. Kim Chance protested
loudly at the time. Now that Chance is Minister, he won't lift
a finger to make sure that there is actually competition in the
marketplace, or he would wear egg on his face. Farmers have been
the big losers.

Markets tend to only work if there is competition, without it
people get screwed, which is what has been happening here.

The live trade is certainly not dying, its changing. Companies like
Siba ships and Wellards are lifting the standards, with new boats
etc. Customers are the ones who make the end decisions.

If you ever go into business Nicky, you will learn fast, that
if you ignore the customer, you go broke.

rehctub

I was refering to health. Like in Victoria. Did you hear about that.?

The Government wrote internal letters to the Drs in and around the areas where they suspected people may have purchased effected meat. However they didnt go public with it.

Did the ALP lie about live exports before the election?

Minister says live export trade is here to stay

Friday, 28/03/2008

The Federal Agriculture Minister has reassured Territory pastoralists he
won't be shutting down the live export trade.

He's been speaking at the 24th annual NT Cattlemen's Association
conference in Darwin, and Alice Plate is there.

Facing a room full of pastoralists, who last year sent 256,000 cattle
through the Port of Darwin to South-East Asia, Agriculture Minister Tony
Burke was out to please.

His message to animal welfare groups, looking to stop the live export
industry, was: "Don't look at me".

Mr Burke said the trade would not be threatened under the Labor
Government.

Nicky it would seem to me now if not before is a very good time to hold this meeting and try to turn around some of the slaughtering to be carried out here in Australia. Its doable but only if they others help by attending these meetings imop. Requires everybody there.

RSPCA have nodded to it but like I said they dont have to knowledge by themselves to address certain issues.
Everyday this is left more and plans are going into building plants in Asia. If we dont do this now it will be too late forever.


Yabby
It requires people to think outside the square. You treat these people as valued workers
Regardless I have dealt with worse than meat workers. Most of them are honest blokes looking to feed their famlies.

Burkes advisor has expressed great interest in the aboriginal and regional projects- but we really needed others to assist with reports.

Its too big Nicky doing it all alone and AA should get behind it.


Thats not having a shot at you Nicky either. Just telling it like it is.

Hi all
PALE, here is the link to the Handle with Care Report (if that doesn't work, the RSPCA National website takes you to Handle with Care, then go to downloads, and it's the report on long distance transport.

http://www.wspa.org.au/ldt_handlewithcare/images/x_images/publicfiles/Report_LDT.pdf

Thanks for that link. Was there any outcome to that enquiry that you know of?

Yabby, I do appreciate the business tips. I had a management consulting business in Victoria which was actually very successful - it may have been even more so had I listened to the customer. As it happens, the business had to be operated within certain moral and ethical constraints, issues which the live export industry does not concern itself with, because, let's face it, it is almost totally unmonitored and there are no sanctions for breaches of the "best standards in the world" - which only go as far as the ship. For example, when thousands of animals die on a ship, the slap on the wrist is that the exporter has to allow more space (than is provided for in the "best standards in the world"), or (horror!) carry more antibiotics. Tell me - what peer-reviewed studies (as opposed to industry funded ones) exist on "inanition" - a consequence that can be solely attributed to the stress of long-distance transport? Or the reality of the effects of ammonia fumes? Can you provide us with links to these peer-reviewed studies, because (call me thick if you like) I cannot seem to find any. I can't actually find any information where experts such as Professor Clive Phillips did a whole, multi-destination journey on such a ship as the "Al Kuwait" or maybe the "Torrens", and witnessed handling and slaughter in the Middle East either.

I was interested to hear that Nigel Brown has left MLA - one wonders why. Perhaps his comments in the Gulf Daily News were what did it.

PF. thanks for your information and I'm really glad that the labelling project seems to be happening. Well done.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky, it seems to me that you don't have the foggiest about how
AQIS work within the food processing industry. They are not control
freaks, that is not their job. They don't issue huge fines either,
for there would not be a company audited by them on a regular basis,
where they don't find fault. I know lol, I've been through plenty
of their audits.

Of course some self reporting takes place, that is in the whole of
the food industry. Are you expecting inspectors on every corner?
Industries suffer from high AQIS charges now, let alone increased ones.

I remind you that it is the best interests of companies shipping
live animals, to keep losses to a minimum. If a thousand sheep die,
they have lost appr 100'000$, which is not to be sneezed at. So it
is in their interest to get things right, for the bottom line is affected.
Wether they are fined a few thousand $ would be insignificant,
in comparison to those losses, so rather pointless.

Inanation is not solely due to long distance transport. We can put
animals in a feedlot and the same happens to a very small %. There
is genetic variability between breeds and between animals. Merinos
happen to be a stressed animal by nature. Its much like people. Some
commit suicide, some starve themselves to death, most are fine.

As we develop new breeds to replace the merino, those issues should
dwindle. Low stress animals are now being selected for.

How to achieve best results on a boat would carry some commercial
confidentiality, as companies compete. It is in companies interests
to use the vets that they employ to their benefit, to do constant
research to improve things. I doubt that they would publish their
trade secrets.

Nicky

Find,Mr. P.D. Omodei:

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

I want to impress on all members of the house, in particular government members and ministers, that the closure of Harvey Beef pending its negotiations with its financiers, the National Australia Bank, AWB LANDMARK and “ELDERS” the stock agents, “is an issue that could cause irreparable damage to the beef industry in Western Australia should it take longer than one week.”!!

(1) That this house calls on the government to conduct an inquiry into the abattoir industry in Western Australia, and in particular -

(a) The reasons for the closure of Harvey Beef;

And any other matter pertaining to domestic and export abattoirs which inhibits their development and existence.

(2) That the matter be referred to the Economics and-

Mr. P.D. Omodei: The member knows that a committee would not start proceedings for at least a month. If the abattoir does not open in the next week, the whole industry will be in jeopardy.
For example, members have talked about alternative processing capacity. The total unused capacity of operating plants in beef
processing in Western Australia is about 40 000 animals. ?

Mr. P.D. Omodei: Are they all accredited?

Mr. A.D. McRAE: They are not accredited; none of them.
that we agreed and that we should go for it.

Mr. P.D. Omodei: You have been dragged kicking and screaming on every issue.

Mr A.D. McRAE: I address the member directly to indicate that this is not the best action we can take. Indeed, we believe it to be counterproductive.

Mr P.D. Omodei: Why am I not surprised?

Yabby

Your Good Mr -I don’t know why you say all he has to do is get off his bum. He is working- Just for the other Team.

I say it’s a pity Elders didn’t just extend the loan on that Abattoir isn’t it? It may have saved hundreds of workers from the loss of their jobs then homes as they couldn’t pay their mortgages ah,=

Elders are well advanced in planning the Opel ... “There’s a billion dollars of taxpayer money involved here.

http://www.nowwearetalking.com.au/Home/Page.aspx?mid=356#11Oct07 ...

Hi all
Yabby, you proved my point - exactly. The live export industry largely escapes the worst of the AQIS fees, while the meat processing industry has to pay the big bucks (as noted by Heilbron and Lindner). Meanwhile, ships's captains (crews of third world foreign ships) submit mortality figures to AQIS, which believes them, provides a report that is basic in the extreme (in case people like me read it in depth), and nothing of any meaning happens to the miscreants. You should read vet Tony Hill's report from THAT "Sixty Minutes program, too. Smoke and mirrors as always.

If Merinos are "highly stressed" animals, dare one ask why you have chosen to export them IN THEIR MILLIONS - FOR DECADES? Did it not occur to someone in the last three decades or so that perhaps they should have been breeding something a bit different before now? Slow learners, one would suggest. Or perhaps it's true that the ones who are exported are past production of anything else and it's a way of dragging the last few bucks out of the wretched animals.

PALE, I agree that (BTW, what meetings are we talking about at present?) as many people as possible should be present - but apart from the factors in my own life and constraints on my time, my limited expertise in the area you're talking would be of little benefit, I'm afraid. If Animals Australia won't meet with you, why not put your contacts in touch with them, and see if they can bring them to the table?

Cheers
Nicky

PF fyi-

http://209.85.173.104/search?
Nicky fyi see-

q=cache:YHisasx0d0UJ:www.dfat.gov.au/geo/malaysia/fta/scoping_study.doc+aqis+rejects+meat+halal+export+license&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=au

http://www.apfa.com.au/media/article.cfm?mediaid=68

Yabbs

Nicky, it seems ...
Yabby.
Why would Nicky need to know about AQIS?

Ok as you insist we will tell her.

Umm, Nicky the word foggiest is the best way to describe AQIS especially when it comes to ar, accrediting( interesting word) Export licenses for meat- especially Halal.


AQIS 'controls' who exports meat-

You guessed it- Protection of the mates in the live Industrty.

Will do my best to describe an adverage day at the AQIS office.

Phone Rings, Hello Alex is that you? - uncle Binny here
reply: No Binny ,its Mark, Alex had to run.

Bin: Well thats no good has he got that enquiry under control yet?
AQIS: Now dont you worry about that.

Bin: Mark we need another ship load of live sheep.

AQIS: No worries Binny. Same Transport Fees for 'your Not For 'Our NFP 'Sceme'

Bin: Of Coure Mark,

AQIS Sure Binny. Whens the ship coming - We have to have the usual paper.

Bin: Of Course, I am sending it now to Livecourpe for the usual Australian Sercurity check.

AQIS: Good Work Binny - Is it the usual list of forty Mohamedas?

Bin: Thats right Mark.


AQIS: Ok Binny Nice Doing business with you as usual.

Bin: Thanks Mark There is just one more thing- We heard some people were trying to get Halal Accreditations through AQIS to export Halal Meat?

AQIS- Dont you worry about that Binny- Is there anything else I can help you with.?

Bin: Yeh, Mark Tell Alex to pick a smaller heafer next time I couldnt find the vegemite- but I found A whole lot of other stuff like guns and some old map.

AQIS: Sorry Binny you must have got the wrong order.

Bin: And Mark, We saw this picture and wanted to ask you a question.

AQIS Sure Binny,

Bin: We know this is a picture of you - But Whos The Other Bloke?

Just scroll Past The Queen Mark= We thought we could trust you and Alex:)

http://www.livexports.com/queen.html

http://www.livexports.com/cowgun.html
http://www.livexports.com/contacts.html

Nicky, the live shippers pay fee for service, just like the meatworks
do. Its just that live animals are not yet food, so there is less
inspecting to do, then for instance meat going to the US or Europe,
where every carcass has to be inspected.

The nationality of the crew does not matter a darn. The vets on
board are Australian, the captain answers to AQIS. In the case
of Wellards, they do actually train their crew here. Head stockmen
are commonly Australians.

Merinos were never bred for the live trade, the trade took them as
they were available by the millions, with few other markets. I have
actually given away a truckload of 400 sheep in the early nineties,
as it was easier then having to shoot and bury them. The meat
of merinos used to be the byproduct of the wool industry, but with
the collapse of wool, that is now all changing. Yup, breeds more
suitable for shipping are indeed being developed.

Gertrude, Greens went broke due to really slack management, despite
their near monopoly. There are no Elders or other conspiracy theories
as you imagine. No loss of jobs either, as you imagine. Where the
new owners cut back on staff, those people were snapped up elsewhere,
if they wanted work. Most decided to stay in Harvey, as its not
a bad spot. Wammco offered those people jobs, IIRC something like
two accepted.

Nicky
I thought of that but it wouldnt work because they have no knowledge of the project we have all worked on together for years.
After saying that we would happily hand it over once they were comfortable and things were back on track.

The link below is basically our project after years of hard work.

The meeting is to discuss again Halal Slaughter In Australia,. I hope to be able to get this back on track as the way it was first drafted. = Which is Slaughter here and work on introducing gass- Export if neccessary whole Carcuss through AQIS to JAKIM.

RSPCA and Head Rabbi Have agreed to attend but you know as well As I do that wont clinch in.

You may say you would not be of any value but we need others and you would be helpful. There needs to be bonds and working friendships born from MOUs with Animal Welfare people in each state of Australia.

Any further MOUs should not only be with pale. They should be with people like Dawn Yourself Trish Brown and Verna From HS if AA wont be involved.

We can only do our bit of bringing this back before its too late.

However without a larger net work being involved state to state to assist in finding farmers who free range and are interested in a better price for human standards we are waisting our time.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:YHisasx0d0UJ:www.dfat.gov.au/geo/malaysia/fta/scoping_study.doc+aqis+rejects+meat+halal+export+license&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=au

Yabby

Read the Enquiry into WA and tell me Elders and AWB and LandMark did not close the plant to redivert it to live?

I was talking about your boy kym Chance not the Greens.
Hes on the other team Yabby, Hello? Is anybody home?
After all how on earth would you get elected if you spoke out about Live Animals Exports in WA?
Really Yabby Whay have you got in your water , down there?

Gertrude, this is where you drift on on your little conspiracy
theories, which are basically a crock of imagination. Thinking
outside the square is all very well, but if you can't even think
inside the square or think rationally, you are in deep crap lol.

Elders and Landmark, as agents, were owed millions for the cattle
that farmers had supplied. Harvey Beef had not paid attention to
cashflow and had wandered off on these various projects, like a large
feedlotting venture and other things. A company who does not pay
bills on time, will get sold off by creditors, that is business
reality!

A number of companies scrambled to buy that plant and operate it,
as everyone knew it could be a goldmine if operated correctly, so
closing it because of the live trade is nothing but imagination.
That is exactly what happened, it is now owned by Singapore interests.
Elders, T&R, plus a number of other operators were the losing bidders.

The reason that no company wants to build a Greenfields site is that
it is simply too hard to go through the red tape, to get all the
permits. That is why I have been suggesting a Govt facilitator.

Kim Chance is in no camp. He is quite rational in understanding
the value and importance of the live trade to WA. Because he
is not a vegetarian animal liberationist, you condem him for not
being in your camp. Kim Chance relies on more then 60 Minutes
docos from years ago, for his information.

Hi all
Yabby, I'm with PALE about Kim (Fat) Chance. If anyone has a live export agenda he does. The latest now is your Minister Ravlich interfering in judicial process instructing the WA State Solicitor to drop the Al Kuwait appeal. Highly improper, and shows the lengths to which the industry and the WA government are prepared to go to pander to live export farmers.

And what a happy coincidence that AQIS doesn't do inspections because the "animals are not food yet". You may not be aware that AMSA handed over the animal welfare matters to AQIS on the basis that it doesn't know anything about animals. AQIS doesn't do it at all really, for several reasons (some as delightfully pointed out by PALE - thanks for that) - it can't be bothered, and it doesn't know anything about ships, to name just two.

As for believing a captain from a third world ship would have the slightest interest (not to mention ethical standards) in providing accurate data, get a grip. And don't tell me they are responsible to AQIS either, they respond to the highest bidder. I would suggest also that anyone who works as a stock (person? Did the delightful Annabelle Coppin not take a trip on the re-badged several times Rodolfo Mata/Stella Deneb for a couple of days to Indonesia? But not, you note, to slaughterhouses) and a veterinarian would also have their own agendas, at the bidding of the exporters, to say what they want said, particularly since AQIS reports (such as they are) are now public property. Conspiracy theories? They're damn right.

Think about it. They've got people like you believing them.

PALE, you had a good relationship with HSI, did you not? Perhaps that would be a better avenue to pursue, or perhaps Carole de Fraga at CIWF. If PALE and Animals Australia are so diammetrically opposed, perhaps you might be able to find some common ground that way. BTW, there are Draft Standards for the Transport of Livestock (I think that's the title) now available for public comment.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky, you are correct, lots of people have lots of agendas, but one thing you
cannot dispute. Nobody pays for dead livestock so it is in eveyone’s interest,
from the captain to the stockmen, that animals arrive alive and in good condition.

It is in nobody’s interest, that livestock die on board a ship.

Yes, things can go wrong, as they can with airlines, when planes crash and people
die. But those are simply due to the fact that humans are fallible and make mistakes
every day. Nobody sets out with that intention, except perhaps for Osama and Co.

If the court decision in WA had gone your way, you would now be singing the praises
of the WA Govt. As you don’t like the decision, of course you will try to shoot the
messenger. Duh..

AQIS do in fact inspect live sheep, just not at the intensity of what happens in a meatworks, for obvious reasons.

I remind you that Siba ships are not a third world shipping company, but Italian.
Even NZ use their services to transport breeding livestock to places like Mexico.

As to Kim Chance, he is far better informed about the live trade then both you
and Gertrude, so makes more rational decisions. But shoot the messenger as
per normal, it is what is expected from you :)

Not everyone on this planet feels sick at the smell of some dogs bones Nicky,
so perhaps you should accept just how extreme your views and emotions are in
this case, compared to us more normal people

Yabby, Siba Ships may be Italian, but what nationality is the crew? Filipino or equivalent standard where animal cruelty is the norm?

And the BOTTOM LINE is that Ministers of the Crown are bound by the Constitution not to interfere in matters of a judicial nature. It's called the "separation of powers". The decision did not go "against us", as you state, cruelty WAS found to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. And it was the WA Solicitor General who lodged the appeal. Ravlich has compromised herself and her office, as well as casting into doubt the expertise of her Department and that of the Attorney General into question. Most improper, and smells of corruption in a big way. I might add that her qualifications, such as they are, are in Education (didn't she cause trouble in that portfolio too?), not Law or Veterinary Science, which begs the question about her expertise to even comment, much less go this far. But that must be the nature of politics in WA. As for Fat Chance, I'll bet he's a farmer (or his relatives and/or best mates are).

Also, everyone knows the conditions under which livestock are loaded (read the court transcript) and why it doesn't matter if a few thousand die. Much less the conditions under which they die.

Finally, if it has been known forever about Merinos, it seems rather unconscionable that they have been sending them for three decades or more regardless (just because they bred too many and they stopped producing the best wool).

Cheers
Nicky

YAbbs

Poor little lamb, you just don’t get it.

Oh no, of course theirs no you scratch my back Mr Elders, AWB – and we will still give you a billion dollars on the quite of tax payers funds.

Live Export support has been promoted by the lobbyists for the trade, with Government support.

Animal welfare and trade unionists have consistently raised a far more serious reason why we need to stop and slaughter here.

The Live Animal; export industry economy deserves a closer look, beyond the umbrella of industry protection and ‘self promotion.’

A very different picture emerges as Nicky has pointed out on the economical foundations on which the trade has been promoted and legitimized.

Oh Yes, the old we are going broke tax relief trick. Umm Packer was rather good at that. Buying up all the plants around Australia.

Get to know the farmer supplier- then bugger the families who mortgaged their houses just close up the plant and ride it off as a tax loss and cop a double whammy with the trade dollars.

Even the live animal exporters themselves recognize that the value and profitability of the trade is not intrinsic to the product itself, but rather a product of market distortion in the form of tariff and non tariff barriers.

Australia is not such a poor country it need to trade off the back of unspeakable misery of Animals for an extra $20.00 0o $40 or even a thousand dollars a head. Bugger your cruel friends Yabby. We will see you in hell!

Yabby said
closing it because of the live trade is nothing but imagination.
That is exactly what happened, it is now owned by Singapore interests.

pale replies

Bull Yabby, utter crap.

Oh yeh, the Singapore connection a legacy from our late Mr Packer.

Sure ,that is why the local Aussie bloke got knocked back by the Government for a $500.00 loan grants and three weeks later our offshore buddies were given 40 million dollars by the Australian Government for the ‘same’ plant.

Pull the other leg Yabby- It whistles.

*just because they bred too many and they
stopped producing the best wool*

Nicky, you girls crack me up, you really do. What do you think farmers are going
to do with them? Perhaps dig them each little graves with a little cross on top,
then hold hands and sing Kumbaya ? You are free to live in your little fairyland of
tippytoeing through the tulips, meantime the rest of us live in the real world and
accept that we eat livestock, much to your disgust. Tough titties as they say :)

*As for Fat Chance, I'll bet he's a farmer (or
his relatives and/or best mates are).*

Wow, how evil is that? Actually having friends who might be farmers! ROFL

*but what nationality is the crew?*

Who cares about the nationality of the crew? You might be racist, I am not. There
are good and bad people from every country. I evaluate individuals as just that.

*why it doesn't matter if a few thousand die.*

Of course it matters if a few thousand die! The economic loss of hundreds of
thousands of Dollars just for starters. Buyers do not pay for dead livestock, that
is the reality. It is the same with farming. Healthy, happy livestock are more
profitable then sick ones. The industry has a great record of 99% and improving.
That is highly acceptable, to those who know anything about livestock.

Fact is Nicky, you are against anything and anyone who disagrees with your
philosophy that livestock should be bemothered and not eaten. That is the
bottom line here.

*Oh yeh, the Singapore connection a legacy from our late Mr Packer.*

Mr Packer has been chewed up by worms Gertrude. Your loan refers to a
case from a different decade, different Govt, different State and has sweet
FA to do with the Harvey Beef case. The connection is in your imagination,
nowhere else. I am not about to blame the Govt for your neural wiring :)

As to long distance transport Nicky, there is a great solution,
put them on a boat with feed and water!

Yabby

Official Hansard
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
stroyed the abattoir or meatworks business in ...... titled ‘Packer beats the tax man on $95m’ which reported that 17 of Mr Kerry Packer’s companies ...

REPORT Peter Beattie MP Premier and Minister for Trade Japan and...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
owned by the Teys family and Mr. Kerry Packer’s Consolidated Pastoral. Company. ...... Is the largest Nippon Meat Packers Australia (NMPA) group abattoir and ...
www.thepremier.qld.gov.au/library/pdf/japan_india_sept04.pdf - Similar pages

Nickysaid,

The latest now is your Minister Ravlich interfering in judicial process instructing the WA State Solicitor to drop the Al Kuwait appeal.

We would prepared to follow up.

Nicky Said

PALE, you had a good relationship with HSI, did you not?

Pale -Yes

I think CIWF were instructed like everybody else not to work with us.
I would much prefer RSPCA ,Bidda and yourself along with as you say HSI.
You might have contacts with Dawn and she might know where Trish Brown is. It would be a good start.

We have a first meeting agin in 4 weeks so anytime after that. You motivated me So we re made contact this morining.

Nickysaid

If PALE and Animals Australia ...

Pale replies
Just for the record we are not opposed to AA We support their efforts 100% despite my comments letting off steam to you in the past out of frustration

We would just like them to also consider the possibilities that many heads make light work.

We do have unique contacts and wish to share them with ‘all of the groups’.

We want to assist groups to be in a better position to sit regularly at the table with the Muslim people who are making decisions and have strong influence with the people overseas who are buying meat supplies.
In Particular groups like PAACT and Dawn Trish You.

I will look at the drafts and comment ASAP- thanks.

Thanks for all you do but don’t underestimate yourself given the right contacts pls

Gertrude, do you even live in the real world, or in the world of
history?

Kerry moved on to become wormfood, James is busy building casinos,
he has no interest in meat processing. Teys Bros moved on too.
Now its the Brazilians who have become the big players in meat
processing in Australia, as they buy up more plants.

Quote history all you like, but it is exactly that, the past.
Are you even aware of the present reality? Somehow I doubt it.

Oh Yes, the old we are going broke tax relief trick. Umm Packer was rather good at that. Buying up all the plants around Australia.

Get to know the farmer supplier- then bugger the families who mortgaged their houses just close up the plant and ride it off as a tax loss and cop a double whammy with the trade dollars.


The word is that Packer closed the Rockhampton plant due to 'continued strike action'.

As for the harvey beef issue. Harvey is an export plant dispursing of it's excess within Australia.

With the added presure of huge freights from there, along with a deflated export market it is little wonder they are struggling.

All businesses within WA wanting to deal interstate battle with freight costs due to their remoteness.

“Rising Above the Herd”
http://www.mla.com.au/TopicHierarchy/News/MediaReleases/Meat+industry+votes+on+MLA+constitutional+debate.htm

rehctub,

pale

Fact that strikes and the unions played a big part.

Lakes creek has struggled since reopening. Regarless its common knowledge Packer was a live export man. He brought many plants up there which he later closed and re- diverted to live.

Not always were plants only closed down because of weather, staff or strikes. The fact is some of those became a convient excuse.

Remember Packers tax Bill rehctub. Ever wondered how such a clever man did that.

Had he not rediverted his plant interests to mostly life and use his influence more than once we may have a different picture here now.

Of Course I am aware there were other players but Packers influence was huge.

Lets say you decided you wanted to export meat.

Just how much help do you think you would have got? Do you think the Government subs would have loaded you up with 40 million to expend your business goals?


Lets face it when did the butchers of Australia ever get one cent of that funding that is 'thrown' at those involved in the live export trade.

This is one of the reasons the red meat industry are again pushing for an inquiry as they have done for year.

In Western Australia 1997 there wasa economic relationship study undertaken by researches on behalf of the Agriculture. It was written with interest of being able to measure and compare the contribuition of major agriculture industries to State and regional .
The analysis was to focuss on the value -adding components.
The results indicted that animal meat contributed the highest level of value - adding to the sates economy. You get no value adding in live exports yet it is the live exports that is heavily propped up by the Government with our public funds.

Yes trucking is a problem and costs I agree. Its another mob with vetted interests to keep the cruel life trade going.

Public wouldnt mind if the truckies were subbed and abattoirs reopended instead our money being given to ME

Rehctub, I am suprised that Harvey Beef are marketing over your
way, as they have the whole of SE Asia on their doorstep from
here.

As to freight to the ES, it is lower then you think. Reason being
that alot of processed goods come this way, with trucks going back
empty. So they will do really great deals, as no freight on the
way home is not very profitable.

Its about 4 years ago now, but I used to fly stuff into Sydney and
Melbourne for around 1$ a kg. Trucking containers would be much
cheaper.

Gertrude, 45% of the Livecorp budget is spent on animal welfare.
Perhaps you object to money being spent for that purpose, but it
beats me why. How much taxpayers money do you think is being spent
in the ME per year, the amount which you object to? I remind you
that farmers finance the overwhelming part of the MLA budget.

Nicky, I don't think much your long distance trucking proposals.
Have you ever unloaded a double B

Dear Lolly Legs:)

Thank You for confirming my description of past Er, policy`s. +

I agree I quoted some history. These days its just a case of same horse different rider.

The system is ``well oiled ``:)

btw Last Time I spoke with Gary and Alex they were very much still involved in the industry.

Mind you men of few words.

One of our lawyers who assists us in Animal Welfare and HKM`s brother knows them.

l and we hope to be meeting them personally in the future .

Nicky you would like this Lawyer he’s taken a big interest in the WA case in his own personal time.

I was surprised to see the amount of research he’s done and talked to colleagues about possibly actions etc.
We can talk about that later.

http://www.teysbros.com.au/

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&cr=countryAU&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=teys+brothers+australia+abattoirs&spell=1

I do agree however there is a large shift and it’s of course Halal.

Here are some of the players. Malaysia is to be the Halal Hub of the world.
Believe me that is something I do know about. Quite a bit than you may I respectfully suggest.=

Country in Focus

Brazil’s Future Cash Cow - The Global Halal Meat Sector Last Updated: Jan 28, 2008, 09:36

By Kamarul Aznam Kamaruzaman, The Halal Journal
Jan 28, 2008, 09:21

By international definitions, Brazil today is a middle-income earner rather than a poor country. Its Gross Domestic Product (GDP) again surpassed a trillion US Dollars, its economy makes up one-third of the region’s and eighth largest in the world in terms of purchasing power parity. Inflation is at its lowest in decades and new forms of credit have led to a sustainable growth in domestic consumption.
Such stable economic conditions have enabled Brazil to register rapid economic expansion in recent years. Gone were the days of stratospheric inflation rates, reaching 2,500% in 1993.
http://www.afic.com.au/

Hi all
Just a quick check in because I've been missing in action with a research paprt to complete. PALE, sorry, I haven't had a chance to look at your links yet, but I will.

Yabby, the issue that is always is the standout with you is that you always sidestep is how the animals are treated in the Middle East (and SE Asia). As for all that LiveCorp money (and don't tell me it's not taxpayers' money either) being spent on "animal welfare", exhaustive enquiries (within the "pastoral" sector) reveal that no-one can tell me:-

1. How many animal welfare training programs have been conducted, country by country, say in the last five years

2. Precisely how many Australian people are in the ground, country by country, specifically to address animal welfare, over the last five years

3. How it is that the very same people in MLA's promotional video showing people being trained in handling Australian animals were filmed, very shortly afterwards, brutalizing Australian sheep.

PALE, that WA Hansard document you provided had a couple of interesting points which reflect badly on the WA government - it says that the RSPCA should be reminded that it is funded by the State government and should conform with government policy (i.e. pro-live exports). I reckon your lawyer should go for Ravlich over the "Al Kuwait" case, because it's far worse than impropriety; it has a strong smell of corruption surrounding it. Finally - may I suggest that you take the HSI route, if that looks promising? They have plenty of credibility.

Yabby, what's ROFL (I think I've guessed, but put it down to a sheltered life) and why do you call PALE Gertrude? Also, your analogies are always good for a laugh. We can't not bleed the last few cents out of every sheep, now can we?

I saw a report that a Brazilian outfit bought up a whole lot of slaughterhouses in Victoria and Tasmania recently. Could it be that they are smarter than Australians?

Cheers
Nicky
PS Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Packer was cremated.

Nicky, I certainly don’t sidestep how animals are treated in the ME. I just don’t
take your defeatist attitude. 16million animals are imported into the ME, ours
is just a small share. If there is a problem, start to change it. Walking away will
solve nothing for anyone.

Peter Dundon reports a very different picture then you do from the ME and he is
there every day.

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/wa/content/2006/s2205191.htm

If you look around you should be able to hear what he said, as it was broadcast
yesterday. What he is saying is that you guys are not reflecting a true picture
and I would have to agree with him. You have an agenda. You hate farmers,
hate meat eaters, you have your own little wierd philosophy of life. So you
are unable to be objective about the whole story, for you think that we should
not be even breeding livestock. No matter what we farmers do, you will spend
you moments doing nothing but nitpick and complain.

You want farmers to be forced to supply a captive market, in your next
breath you will say that they are a business and should act like one. Make up
your frigging mind lol.

If you take a look at the MLA budget, by far the majority of funding is grower
levies. The Govt funds dollar for dollar on some research programmes, the
majority of that goes to universities etc. So any contribution to animal welfare
in the ME, coming from the Govt would be minimal. AFAIK from the animal rights
movement it is NIL.

Nicky, the Al Kuwait case was thrown out of court. You are a bad loser!

What last few cents out of sheep? There is no good reason other then lack of
competition, that WA farmers can be paid 50% less then their Eastern States cousins
on some sheep. You seem to want to increase that to 80%. I am sure that
Roger Fletcher loves you dearly!

I note that old ships, taken off the Australia trade, are now carrying cattle from
Brazil to the ME. So much for your-standards.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s2206158.htm

There you go Gertrude. In your own backyard, a meatworks plans
to close, due to no workers.

You can preach to the world from the Gold Coast, yet things
are falling down right in your own backyard of Queensland.

Which is my point. People like AA don't even have the foggiest
about the real world, as they shuffle their papers for a living,
just like Nicky.

At some point Nicky, you should thank farmers for being some
of the few in this country who can actually generate export
dollars, so you paper shufflers can enjoy your cushy lifestyles.

Clearly you lot are unable to accept the realities of the global
market that we face.

Instead you tippytoe through the tulips of some fantasy world.

All very romantic lol.

Hi all
Dear Yabby, talk about preaching to the converted! The Country Hour is produced for FARMERS (as a local presenter once painstakingly explained to me; i.e. don't bother them with animal welfare issues).
Peter Dundon is paid BY WHOM?
BTW - did you know that the latest BIG PROJECT on the welfare of exported animals is being done BY A STUDENT, in a "simulated" feedlot, and on a "simulated" ship" (that is, I'm told, they put half a dozen sheep in a room which rolls and sways to see what happens. Murdoch University, they tell me.
Did you happen to watch the ABC production "Rain Shadow" about two vets (Rachel Ward and Victoria Thaine) in a fictional drought declared part of SA, where the local farmers are supported by the vet to load up their OJD infected sheep for the Middle East. Interesting stuff, I thought. Total fiction, of course. Farmers would NEVER load sick animals for export (I must've been seeing things the times I saw it happen).
Farmers actually contribute very little in terms of export earnings, if you have a look at ABS statistics.
As for Brazil - have you seen me praise Brazil? For example, the ill-fated "Corriedale Express", now the "Kenoz" tortures animals from there. Here we have the "Torrens" (look it up - it's the old "Farid F").
What's AFAIK?
Nite nite
Nicky

Nicky

We understand you’re busy. I am pleased you have picked up on

the Strong Smell for reason for closure in WA.
Nickysaid-
I reckon your lawyer ...

pale-

Umm, well, Nicky There’s bound to be stuff he would to be brief on (background)

If they would not co operate to brief him it would hinder his work and the possible outcome.

Could put you in contact with him and they might cooperate more. Just an idea. No need to decide now.

Nicky Said
Finally - may I suggest ...

pale comments
It’s an awful for just one branch. I don’t like to ask. At this stage we are looking at meeting on 26th. Make it worse is a Saturday- in Brisbane. Not sure if we should ask RSPCA and HS to that one or not.

Lot of sorting to do.

The plants you mentioned below are a small part of that.

Robert spoke with them and apparently the gas was mentioned. Lets wait and See..




Nicky said

PS Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Packer was cremated.

Pale- No buried on his property.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/kerry-packer-laid-to-rest-in-country-he-loved/2005/12/30/1135915692162.html

Yabbssaid

Peter Dundon reports a very different picture then you do from the ME and he is there every day.

Pale comments-

Pigs might fly. He’s here everyday. His office is at Ipswich. The last I spoke with him it was re the AWB Enquiry.

We asked him if he would care to make a comment on the strippers outside the AWB Enquiry protesting the Cruelty of the live Animal Export Trade.

He referred us to head office= Elders FYI:)

Yabbsaid

You can preach to the world from the Gold Coast, yet things
are falling down right in your own backyard.

Pale comments
Yes we are in contact with the Minister for immigration.

Had a `lovely little chat` quite late this evening. ..

Pointed out in writing it would be difficult not to call for an enquiry and use the WA Hansard doc etc..

So you know I don’t mind sharing I will post part of our message tonight to the M- Evans...

From: Halalkindmeats
To: senator.evans@aph.gov.au
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 8:22 PM
Subject: Shame on you!

OPEN LETTER TO SENATOR EVANS
Dear Mr Evans

It is painfully clear to the public and our members that Abattoir workers have had extra pressure put on them.

Are these animals are now trucked instead?

Or perhaps sent on ships?

The Abattoir 457 Visa for these workers are vital Or is it orders from Mr Rudd protecting the live trade. This town will collapse without the workers.

We require urgently 457 for at least another hundred thousand to one hundred and fifty thousand 457

As Minister for Immigration it is a perfect opportunity to have migrants trained as staff so they can eventually work and make lives in Australia for regional area survival and training of aboriginal people.

We urge you to act now. We are calling for an open public enquiry into the involvement of your office in making it almost impossible for these owners to comply.

Are you familiar Mr Evans with the WA enquiry into similar in 2005 perhaps. The department of immigration are not the workers watch dog.

We urge you not to sit back use the useless dribble that you will be watching NZ.

The locals also will loose their jobs and the town will collapse if you dont act.

We intend to reopen dozens of plants throughout Australia and employ and teach the Aboriginal People and regional people how to be self sufficient.

We do not intend to be fobbed off to Tony Burkes or elsewhere.

We are asking your office to consider we have a moral obligation attempt to not to put dozens of good people out of work and destroy somebodies business.

Abattoirs have demands and conditions put on them that NO other industry has.

These people earn a dozen times more than they do back home.

Yourself and your staff are paid by the tax payers so pls carry out our wishes and do something today.


HKM

Halal Kind Meats

Nicky, Peter Dundon is paid by MLA and so what? The problem is your wrong
perception that farming and animal welfare are mutually exclusive, when in fact
the opposite is the case. Animal welfare is one of many topics that farmers have
to deal with.

Tell me something Nicky, on how many properties have you been, where you
have seen what professional farmers are actually doing? I can tell you that
I deal with these people every day and 80-90% are very concerned about
animal welfare, or they would have been out of business a long time ago.

By far the majority of animal welfare issues that I see are on hobby farms
and absentee owner farms, usually through plain ignorance.

David Suzuki noted in his OLO article that farming brings one close to nature.
Very true. Farmers have a much more natural understanding of the world,
life, birth, death etc, then somebody like you, with her weird philosophy.

I’ve looked at the exports statistics many time Nicky and the fact remains that
you as an Australian, owe your lifestyle to farming, given that Australia rode
on the sheep’s back until recently. Without it, we would still be a banana
republic. Even today, as our current account still runs at 6% or so of GDP,
take out farm exports and the Australian $ would soon become the Australian
Peso, as you report writing paper shufflers are clearly unable to generate
any significant export $ to pay your way. WA I might add, with 10% of
the population, generates around 40-50% of our export $. You have us to
thank for your well being.

Gertrude, you are out of touch once again. Do your homework and
find out where Peter and his wife Sharon now live.

There is an interesting article in this week's hardcopy of Farm Weekly. It seems that both Fletchers at Narricup and Lynley Valley,
are relying on backpackers to get them through their labour crisis.
Of course they train these people and then they are gone within
a few months. So they are unable to value add as they could, if they
had the labour.

Clearly paper shufflers like you Nicky, don't have the foggiest about
what is happening in the real world out there, when you try to
shut down the live trade. The meat industry clearly cannot cope
now, let alone with another 4 million head.

But that is fine, you just float along on your little dreams of
tulip fields :) Ignorance is clearly bliss!

Hi all

Dear Yabby,

The reality is that I owe nothing of my lifestyle, wellbeing or anything else to Australian farmers, I have it because I work for it (without exploiting animals too) as is the case with the vast majority of the population. Exporting raw materials in any form is economic nonsense when there is a capacity for value-adding in this country. Ask an economist instead of a farmer or a live export agent. Some more realities for you.

Official Australian ABS Fact:

Chapter 14 of the Yearbook is dedicated to Australian Agriculture and states:

‘While Australian Agriculture no longer contributes a large share of gross domestic product (GDP) – averaging around 3% in recent years – it utilises a large proportion of natural resources, accounting for 70% of water consumption and almost 60% of Australia’s land use. The gross value of total Australian agricultural production in 2004-05 was $35.6 billion". (Source: ABS Product: 7501.0).

Peter Dundon no doubt gets paid extremely well to preach to the converted. What else is he going to say, for Heavens sake? I wonder what happened to Nigel Brown, MLA's erstwhile "animal welfare authority"?

PALE, my (unqualified) thoughts would be that if the WA case "failed" (although it didn't really, the cruelty charges under the WA Act were proven beyond a reasonable doubt) because of Commonwealth (Constitutional) technicalities, it should be removed from the WA jurisdiction anyway and referred to the Federal (or even the High) Court, but the problem is that there is no Commonwealth animal welfare law. The ALES are mandatory and enforceable, but are nevder enforced (see all the mortality reports). The whole situation reeks of corruption, and as I understand it, Ravlich got the push from the WA Education portfolio before getting this (Local Government) one. I suspect she is incompetent to even comment, nad it is extremely improper of her to intervene. Those are just my thoughts, based on what I have read (the Magistrate's judgment, etc).

What's the story with the Teys Brothers material? That workers should be imported under the 457 Visa system?

Cheers
Nicky

Hehe Nicky, you know about as much about economics as about farming, which is
about sweet FA :) I subscribe to the Economist and do try to at least inform myself
a little bit, unlike you it seems.

First world economies are not created by people trading houses with one another, which is much of the basis of your city based economy, other then supplying
agriculture and mining with inputs. Australia’s first world economy was in
fact created by exports, largely agricultural. You went to school here, you went
to University here, you live in cities where Govts have money to spend. Take
agriculture out of Australia’s history and present, you would live in a banana
republic, without these many benefits. No exports means no wealth.

Export $ create wealth locally, writing reports don’t. I remind you that with a
current account deficit of 6%, add another 35 billion (the value of agriculture )
it would be around 10% or banana republic status. Half the money that
Australian banks lend, they borrow from overseas. They charge banana republics
a great deal more, due to higher risk. So on your knees you go to thank us farmers :)

Yes, we don’t value add as much as we could, because you paper shufflers are so keen on even more rules and regulations, whilst adding payroll taxes and other
burdens on to exporters costs, so that city based value adding is simply uncompetitive
for much of the time, despite having some of the cheapest raw materials in the
world to work with. In efficiency terms, WA agriculture rates amongst the top
in the world. Don’t blame us, if you screw it up and can’t get it right.

I am sure that Peter and his wife are paid reasonably for their efforts. They can’t be
expected to up stumps and move to the ME, without compensation. That has little
to do with the validity of his claims. Either he is right or he is wrong. You have yet
to show where his claims are wrong.

Dear Yabby, you seriously overestimate, as always, the contribution of agriculture to the present and even the past economy.

Maybe before we got serious technology, and the secondary and teriary sectors developed, you made a contribution of significance, but agriculture is all but dead.That's why we can't understand why governments fall all over you with subsidies, and Centrelink payments (out of my tax dollars, and I can't get paid for running a failing business or otherwise fall on hard times) if it's wet, or it's dry, or it's hot, or it's cold. Certainly if payroll and other taxes apply to other businesses and industries they should apply to live exporters (but they sidestep a lot of that with their foreign ships and crews, of course. No OH&S to speak of or worry about either), and do you have a problem with animal welfare regulations if you have nothing to hide?

One of Australia's best exports these days is in fact education, including distance learning (you should try it. Broaden your mind), and encompassing technology.

Part of the reason for the pandering to the live export industry is the other products Australia exports to the Middle East (Toyota Camrys are a good example of value adding, and provide a decent number of jobs (the closure of Mitsubiushi in South Australia notwithstanding). So you subscibe to the Economist - if you don't relate it to ABS data, you are wasting your money.

As for proof of Mr Dundon's terminal lethargy in the Middle East (and he mustn't be very good at what he does, since the very same people he "trained" have been filmed abusing animnals following his "training") - of course, you won't do it because you don't want to see it or believe it - Animals Australia could hardly have made up the film footage and photographs on their website. Sorry!

Cheers
Nicky

*but agriculture is all but dead.*

Hehe Nicky, apart from feeding you lot every day, agriculture remains Australia’s
Number 2 exporter! That achieved, by a tiny % of the population, some of the
most efficient farmers in the world.

Yes, education services are an exporter, after having billions of $ shoved up the
butts of universities, by us taxpayers. Who generated the wealth to be able
to build those universities in the first place? Farmers of course!

I remind you again of the fundamentals. Without farming, Australia would be
a banana republic and your well being is due to farming. Admit it, the achievements
of farming, still today, make your subsidised education achievements look like
chickenshit :) Compare the ABS figures if you like.

How many billions were shoved up the butts of the car manufacturers? For how many
exports in billions? Think again Nicky.

You depend on farming, as much as you hate it.

So far you have provided no evidence to refute Peter Dundon’s claims. I don’t
expect any, as you don’t have any.

Nicky, its time to enrol in Economics 101, for clearly you don’t even understand
the basics.

Gertrude, I note that the Govt changed its position on the goat abattoir. If you
had something to do with it, well good on you. It seems that we’ll have to take
every case and put it on tv, for anything real to happen

Dear Yabby, more of the usual claptrap. I referred you to the evidence, but clearly, as expected, you haven't looked.

Students actually pay for their degrees (and other education such as Diplomas, etc) - many tens of thousands od dollars, I might add (while also paying to subsidize farmers).

If agriculture is the No. 2 exporter. what do you claim accounts for the majority of exports? After all, ABS stats show that agriculture contributes something like 3% of GDP, in recent years (or didn't you read my earlier reference either?

Thought not.
Nite nite,
Nicky

What's AFAIK? = As far as I know.

Nicky said

*but agriculture is all but dead.*

As for proof of Mr. Dundon's terminal lethargy in the Middle East (and he mustn't be very good at what he does, since the very same people he "trained" have been filmed abusing animals following his "training") - of course, you won't do it because you don't want to see it or believe it - Animals Australia could hardly have made up the film footage and photographs on their website. Sorry!

Pale requests. Nicky have you got a copy of the MOU between Australia and ME doc pls? And what are the agreed terms conditions from Australia as to who has investigation powers to enforce this MOU.

I would have thought a MOU was pretty weak given the past events however perhaps a Government to Government MOU has “special powers that the UN could look into. Umm, I am with Yabby on the export figures sorry.

Yabby,

Well thank you It was the stripper that did it I`M sure :)So Sir Yabbs how do you Peter and his wife? No I didn’t realize he had flown the coup. Perhaps I underestimated you Yabby you seem to have a bit more information.

Tell me your not working as a spider for your poor heros.

You should be careful of this new elite group people are talking about of animal welfare Yabbs.

You said
That has little
to do with the validity of his claims. Either he is right or he is wrong. You have yet
to show where his claims are wrong.

Pale comments
Sorry to disappoint you Yabbs but seen stock her brought for AWB treated like SH up here in QLD .
So as an eye witness my money is on Nicky being more accurate.

So AWB and Elders pay their Staff Through MLA do they? How interesting
Of course I suppose there really isn’t much difference between Austrade and MLA and Elders and AWB anyway:)

So Yabby what are your dogs names btw?

Nicky

FYI
http://www.halaljournal.com/index2.php?page=article&act=show&pid=1320

Sidestory: THE MALAYSIAN HALAL FACTOR
Another difference is stunning prior to slaughter. Unlike the Arab countries, which do not allow the use of stunning in any form, the Malaysian Halal standard does, but only for captive bolt stunning.

Despite this however, the slaughter men had to wait an extra two to three minutes to ensure that the animal is completely dead before continuing with further processing.

Due to the distance and competition from Australia, Skirmunt does not think that Malaysia would significantly increase their orders any time soon. But he does seem to be optimistic when speaking of other Middle East potentials.

“So far, our Middle East clients never gave us wrong information as far as requirements are concerned. We can have a higher speed of production when we do Halal for them. It’s not so strict in terms of waiting for the animal to assure the condition of the animal, so this has enabled us to do a more regular production,” he said

Due to the distance and competition from Australia, Skirmunt does not think that Malaysia would significantly increase their orders any time soon. But he does seem to be optimistic when speaking of other Middle East potentials.

“So far, our Middle East clients never gave us wrong information as far as requirements are concerned. We can have a higher speed of production when we do Halal for them. It’s not so strict in terms of waiting for the animal to assure the condition of the animal, so this has enabled us to do a more regular production,” he said.

Nicky

I have left several messages for Bidda but have not recieved a call.

Now right now we must go back to the table and I would like others there.

Without going into too much on this forum we have a very good chance to turn some things around.

This is what I mean by everyone working together and without that we are doomed.

Could you pls email us off this site through our web page.

Nicky and all points of interest

http://www.halaljournal.com/?page=article&act=show&pid=1449&PHPSESSID=2adfdd6f9cc955ecb255a93a5875355c

SC wooing foreign fund managers to Malaysian Islamic fund market Last Updated: Apr 02, 2008, 19:08

By Bernama
Apr 02, 2008, 19:12

KUALA LUMPUR, March 31 (Bernama) -- The Securities Commission (SC) is in talks with a few fund managers from the United States, Europe and the Gulf countries on establishing their operations in the Islamic fund management market in Malaysia.

"We welcome global fund managers to set up business in the Islamic fund management market. There will be no restrictions for them," SC chairman Datuk Zarinah Anwar said at a briefing on the SCs 2007 Annual Report here today.

They will however have to keep out of the conventional fund management market here - "Not for the time being as weve already got five strong foreign fund companies," she said.

The regulator had in 2005 issued licences to five foreign firms to carry out stockbroking operations here as part of the government's efforts to make the country an attractive centre for the management of regional and global funds.

The five are Aberdeen Asset Management, BNP Paribas Asset Management, Nomura Asset Management, Templeton Asset Management and Credit Agricole Asset Management.

On initial public offerings (IPOs) by companies seeking listing on Bursa Malaysia, Zarinah said the number of IPOs is likely to grow this year despite the uncertainties in the global economy.

"There are a lot of uncertainties in the global market now but, judging by the proposals in the pipeline so far, it seem that there will be growth," she said.

SC has already approved six IPOs this year while another 14 IPOs are pending consideration.

In 2007, there was a fall in IPOs fund raising, from RM4 billion in 2006 to RM2 billion, due to the smaller size of the IPOs. However, the non-IPO fund raising saw a three-fold increase to RM11.8 billion.

There was also significant improvement in the quality of proposals received as reflected by three rejections compared with 40 in 2006.

Nicky


We got this on track several years ago but we asked and asked the others to help by getting involved.

I would like to get it back on track but since then they have already started on 7 plants etc and of course Elders and other play copy cat so again forums are not the place for this.

If you can contact Bidda ask her to call me- She has the number.

http://www.halaljournal.com/poll_results.php?pollid=15

fyi
Readers Poll


Your Opinion
Do you fully understand the benefits of Islamic Banking?
Yes
No
Not Sure


Total votes: 24 View results


Results
Do you fully understand the benefits of Islamic Banking?
Yes 9 votes. (37.50 %)
No 6 votes. (25.00 %)
Not Sure 9 votes. (37.50 %)
Total votes: 24
Is Halal Logistics important to ensure integrity in the supply chain 17. July 2007.
Does your organisation use Islamic banking and financial services 27. September 2007.
Do you agree that there should be one international halal standard logo? 07. September 2007.
Do you feel that Malayisa has the credibility to become the hub for international Halal Certification 15. August 2007.
Would you use a Halal certified cosmetics if it were widely available? 12. November 2007.
What is your first impression of The Halal Journal magazine? 12. November 2007.
What would be the biggest hurdle for your company to access to Halal raw materials? 12. November 2007.
Rate the following in order of importance of the threats to intra OIC business collaboration. 12. November 2007.
Rate the importance of the OIC to the developments of the Halal industry. 12. November 2007.
Should Halal products be covered in Free Trade Agreements (FTAs)? 12. November 2007.
In your opinion, which is the biggest threat facing the development of the global Halal industry? 12. November 2007

Hi all
Just checking in quickly because I am going away today and will have limited internet access. PALE, I had a copy of an old MoU with Kuwait, I think it was, but MoUs are not enforceable documents anyway, and are really pretty worthless. They were nothing more than a publicity stunt by the government to shut the Australian public up. None of the current MoUs, as I understand it, provide for any more than the animals being unloaded into quarantine facilities, or just even unloaded, and that's only to head off another potential "Cormo Express". The only one that was additional was that unfortunate second one with Egypt, which was supposed to support OIE standards, and we saw how well that worked.

OIE standards only provide for the very minimum in animal welfare, if you have a look at them.

I don't know what to suggest if you can't get hold of Bidda Jones. I'm not part of any group either, so perhaps HSI will prove to be your best support. What about RSPCA Queensland? Can't they get some response from Dr Jones? And what about the AMIEU up there?

For the record, I have attended several loadings of ships, and seen hundreds of sick and injured animals both in feedlots and loaded. So much for AQIS.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky, taking peoples dogs for a walk or paying people pensions, all
add to GDP, that does not mean that they create wealth for Australia
or pay our overseas debts of hundreds of millions of $.

Mining and farming, our number 1 and 2 export earners, are wealth
creators and let you lead your cushy lifestyle. Neither is a significant
part of the economy, both are a crucial part of the
economy. No exports = banana republic, ask any economist.

The manufacturing that does still exist here for instance, is busily
making specialised products for those two, quite different from
your Chinese el cheapo imports, where we as a nation are not competitive.
But we still have to pay our bills as a nation.

As to subsidies in farming, they go largely to patches of NSW and
Qld. So cut them off, they don't come to WA. But also cut off payments
to the MV industry and other industries. Don't yet again discrimate
against farming, which has carried this nation through its history.

I should hope that students pay for degrees. Why should little people
pay for the degrees of expensive lawyers? Yet billions are still
poured into universities, as degrees are still subsidised, not
self funded.

The court case was largely to do with the wording of the new
animal welfare legislation, which was not very clear. Now we know
its a problem, it is time to change the legislation. Its been a
waste of money so far, for the farmers fighting fund too, as well
as for the exporters. Hopefully AA will pay their costs :)

Nicky said-

MOU with Kuwait,

Goodmorning everyone.
Nicky Robert requested a copy of MOU. Agree with everything you said.
It might be time other lawyers assisted. As far as I know RSPCA use one of the biggest law firms in this country.
It isnt like there are not plenty of -people complaining.

Bidda did contact me Nicky and I invited her along with another head of RPSCA who I had already discussed this with.

She is not able to attend on that date. So we will see.

I also sent her some info that I think you should have if you care to email our site. I can not put this on the forum.

Nicky said
And what about the AMIEU up there? and RSPCA Queensland?

Pale. Replies

Nicky in the past the CEO RSPCA and AMIEU QLD and federal leaders of AMIEU have attended big meetings. Really Big..

BUT we have ALWAYS then required RSPCA, head office and AA onboard. I have given up on AA. I think YOU should attend



Yabby-
subsidies

Here Here, I say this is getting exciting. I love talking about subsidies. I look forward to it Yabbs.

Yabby said
Yet billions are still poured into universities, as degrees are still subsidised, not
self funded.
Oh Shucks Yabbs, but Your 'too' kind today. I love even more talking about Landmark Elders Unis Vet students etc. By George they do keep turning out the AVA Presidents dont they:)

There was another interesting study done into Schools and Landmark word wide.

Umm, Now we are getting a little dirt on our contacts. I like that.

Yet billions are still
poured into universities, as degrees are still subsidised, not
self funded.

The court case was largely to do with the wording of the new
animal welfare legislation, which was not very clear. Now we know
its a problem, it is time to change the legislation.

Yabby
Our Lawyers would agree with that and this time we wont wait to be invited .

I will tell you someting for free Yabby you lie when you say you want a sensible debate on live exports.

In the last half a dozen posts especially I posted some pretty priverledged information.

Not a peep from you as usual.

This is what you have done before.
As soon as anyone starts talking real shop with you you suddenly dont respond.

Then you say of you girls dont know anything about the live trade or trade or how things go down within the indusrty.

It seems to me you are the one that is shy of talking about the industry and what is on the agenda not us.

Your friends who contacted OLO to cry about their names being posted should lear if they are doing it and they are ashamed of it then maybe they should STOP doing it ah

http://theland.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/livestock/cattle/article/84285.aspx

What do you think of this? This strategy is going to be tough to beat.

PF, I'm not sure about their campaign, but I recently heard an
interview with one young lady from a station, who hopped on a boat
with the station cattle, for the 4 day trip to Indonesia.

Sounds like the cattle were a bit restless on the first day, until
they settled in and chomped their food all the way. Conditions
on board were much better then all the stories the press has been
on about. Sounds to me like those cattle were much better off,
then those being trucked from Western Australia to the East,
which happens frequently when the market price collapses here yet
again.

A national network of young, passionate....

Yes they sure are showing the face of the industry Leroy and you have shown your lack of character.

Shame On Lach MacKinnon, Shame on Annabelle Coppin, Shame on Murray Grey, Shame on Atticia Grey, Shame on Dan Koric and Shame on Garry Robinson.

'You' are the shame Leroy encouraging such cruelty.

What’s more of a shame is =the shame that after three past enquiries- ALL of which recommended the evil barbaric trade was to cease immediately and it still continues!

You thumb your noses at RSPCA and other Animal Authorities.

I will put MLA on notice as of now that we pale will no longer tolerate this one eyed view and support for just one industry

MLA must put 'equal funding 'into our Ambassadors.

Now ‘we’ are promoting the red meat trade which provides value adding.
Btw the Abattoir association is correct by asking for an enquiry into MLA
I know I will be happy to give evidence.
W.lewthwaite

PS I am just wondering btw why the Land link isnt taking any more comments.

Nicky If you know the secret pass word to the rural press and the land I would really like it.
I know Taryn who is currently in WA and others who have tried to post on the rural press as well as the land have had the same difficluties as us tonight er I should say this morning.

If the Government are stupid enough to think we will all sit back and not protest the outragous attempt to discredit RSPCA they have another think coming.

The have already signed their death certificates for the next election.

No softly softly approach of the RSPCA or Animals Australia try as they may have.

This is now war we we answer to nobody but God and the suffering millions of Animals these low lifes exploit.

Its easy- if ya gonna killem killem close the the farm where the poor bastards were bred.

We aint as polite as the others you low life mongrels.

Halal Kind Meats

To MLA

Dear Yvonne Farrol 10.4.2008

As you are aware I requested to know the amount of funding given under the program you are running.

I am referring of course to the young people allocated to promote live animal exports for the MLA. You call them Ambassadors.

My interests are of a commercial basis. However we are also concerned with young people being used to disrespect the RSPCA. I find that very concerning Yvonne.

As I explained to you by telephone HKM Halal Kind Meats have long lobbied MLA and Austrade and Regional and development grants for the same - as in equal support for our projects.

We are requesting equal funding for six Ambassadors of our choice to promote our project especially in our regional areas. We are happy to inform you we have MOUs with Aboriginal Elders and Muslim Leaders of Australia along with good relationships with much red meat industry

You refused to disclose the funds allocated to your project by telephone and requested I write to you.
I Wendy Lewthwaite request you disclose the amount of funding allocated to the project you are in charge of and note you stated to me you are very proud of and find exciting.

You went on to disagree with myself that this move was not in conflict of the projects run by RSPCA. RSPCA have tirelessly campaigned against live Animal Exports because of the cruelty involved. There have been no less than five separate segments on 60 Minutes regarding this issue. Also many other animal welfare groups have long protested the unnecessary transport of these animals.

As it happens however my interest and reason for contacting you is of one of equal and fair play between the industries.

I am director of Halal Kind Meats and require this information to further negotiate with the interested parties.
Please reply and disclose the full amount of funding allowed under your project including Car, Phone, Travel, Clothing Hairdressers and any other form of monies either paid directly or indirectly to these people. All advertising costs both here and overseas.
To Be Contiune

continued
In other words the full extent of your budget allocated to this project
We are meeting with heads of Halal Meats and Muslim Leaders quite soon and your early reply is looked forward to.

Wendy Lewthwaite
Director
HKM
Halal Kind Meats

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/stories/s593796.htm

Call For Inquiry Into Tasmanian Beef Industry

Tasmanian meat industry operators have sounded the alarm, as abattoirs cut jobs and increasing numbers of livestock are sent to the mainland for processing.

Smithton Meatworks operated by HW Greenhams in northwest Tasmania has told 21 workers they won't have a job from Friday.

And the head of the state's Blundstone Boot Factory, Doug Dickenson, wants an inquiry into the industry, after he was forced to go to Victoria to buy hides.

"Well we're very short of hides," he said. "We've expanded our operation in Tasmania. Blundstone's boot factory is extremely busy, require leather, and we're chasing hides. There ought to be an enquiry into the meat industry. The government ought to determine who they're going to support and who they're not."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/26/2199603.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/25/2198078.htm

http://www.mla.com.au/TopicHierarchy/News/MediaReleases/Meat+industry+votes+on+MLA+constitutional+debate.htm

http://www.wspa.org.au/ldt_handlewithcare/images/x_images/publicfiles/Report_LDT.pdf

Pale is calling on the resignation on heads of MLA and a complete new structure.
It is beyond the pale that MLA thumb their nose at RSPCA who are the Animal Welfare Authority of Australia.
I think this new Government has shown us their arrogance in many ways however this is without the most single largest mistake they have made to date.
In case MLA had not noticed RSPCA Animals Australia and hundreds of other Animal Welfare Organisations not only in Australia but world wide have rallied together for the banning of the evil barbaric trade for over twenty years.

The public are far more aware now of the truth that lies behind their unforgivable trade. That would be of course the old you scratch your back and I will keep your evil; trade alive despite the findings of no less than three enquiries in the past ALL of which found the discusting trade that only befenits a few must be bannned immediatly.

Hi all
My post in response to PF's seems to have disappeared into a black hole - but I said something along the lines that these people are over-indulged yuppies being subsidised with taxpayers' funds to promote cruelty. I understand that Ms Copping spent five minutes on the "Deneb Prima" (it may have been a remotely reasonable ship back then, but it is almost 30 years old and recent photos of it are pretty sad). It belongs to Siba Ships, whom Yabby extols as having such great ships.

It is now the "Stella Deneb", but before "Deneb Prima" it was the "Rodolfo Mata" and before that the "Ming Universe". Before that no-one can remember, but it was Chinese. It has had about 16 inspections in Australia and on each occasion it has been found to have up to 15 major defects. The last detention was in September 2007 in Port Adelaide for two days over fire hazards and safety issues. And this is supposed to be one of the better ones.

I cannot tell from Ms Coppin's record (www.liveexportcare.com) whether she hung around in Indonesia long enough to see how her much loved animals were handled and slaughtered, but it seems unlikely.

One of the other "ambassadors" was reportedly quite senior in Emanuels, I think it was, until a couple of weeks ago.

Yabby - tell me, should bright students who cannot pay university fees upfront be denied an education because they are not over-indulged yuppies? Everyone pays their fees at some point, you know. And what on earth are you going to do when we put a stop to the cross-continent transport of animals for slaughter too? Keep crying poor, or come up with a remotely sensible strategy like only breeding the number of animals you can "use" (rather than abuse) on your side of the country? And another one to fix the meat industry over there, or would two be too difficult?

PALE, I didn't know there was an access code or password for Rural Press, so I can't help you on that one, I'm afraid.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky, no matter what MLA does or farmers do, you will spew your vitriol.
Ok, we have come to expect little else from you.

By what we know so far, you are against people farming livestock, or eating
meat, you are against feed lotting, transporting livestock, you are against
everything.

Rest assured, the world will continue with or without you :)

Fact is that Govts can’t legislate for rainfall and whilst it varies, livestock
will be moved around, as its in their interests not to starve.

I think that you mentioning subsidies is a bit rich. How much taxpayers
money is thrown at Universities each year? How many Australian students
land up paying for the full cost of their education? Yet we are still short of
doctors, dentists, accountants, etc. etc. Can’t you university people
do your jobs?

I think we are fortunate that most Australians and Govts realise that
we have a small band of animal liberation extremists, who make one
hell of a racket, in our tolerant society they are to be tolerated, but
taking much notice of all the vitriol would be rather pointless

Nicky said

(One of the other "ambassadors" was reportedly quite senior in Emanuels, I think it was, until a couple of weeks ago.)

Nicky
Well thats interesting because according to the Emanuels - at least
'John' they are out of live exports.

They complained about pale posting his family names on olo to GY a few weeks ago while debating the topic of live exports.

So I contacted John Emanuel on his mobile and we had a chat.

I explained to Mr Emanuel that we would be happy to grant his request open him emailing us some proof they were no longer involved but in hidsite they were at the time when our list was so nicley prodived. We are still waiting Mr Emanuel.

So now lets see who else is involved other than these youth. Lets look for family trees and see if we cant find the proud parents of Live export industry ambassadors: Lach MacKinnon, Annabelle Coppin, Murray Grey, Atticia Grey, Dan Koric and Garry Robinson, who are all involved in Australia's live export industry.
Nicky isnt this our livecourpe head below?

Bustan International P/L Mr Clinton Conden 39 Mt Ida Ave Hawthorne East, V 3123

Here are some name you might know Nicky=

Contacts by Category
Company Name Address

I am sure the children of the following are thanking Lach MacKinnon, Annabelle Coppin, Murray Grey, Atticia Grey, Dan Koric and Garry Robinson,

Al Makairish Australia P/L Dr Rafie Ibrahim Dr? Rafie a live animal exporter. GPO Box 17 North Adelaide SA 5006

Corral Line a live animal exporter P/L Mt Henrick Nissen PO Box 760, Chatswood, NSW 2057

Dens-Ocean a live animal expoter P/L Mr Bent Skjalierup PO Box 655, Chatswood, NSW 2057

Fares Group Mr Graham Haldenby a live animal exporter PO Box 464 Fremantle WA 6959

Fares Rural Co P/L Mr Peter Lang a live animal exporter PO Box 464 Fremantle WA 6959

Housing Inspections & Assess. Ms Rosanna Ransley a live animal exporter 20 Barong Rd Kincumber NSW 2251= Interesting name Rosanna.

SHAME ON YOU ALL

How typical of livecourpe and MLA to hide hehind the face of these youth and possible put them in harms way. MLA and Livecourpe are well aware of the public outrage and the animal welfare groups outrage including RSPCA.

Live export industry ambassadors: Lach MacKinnon, Annabelle Coppin, Murray Grey, Atticia Grey, Dan Koric and Garry Robinson, are being used and shamed and defamed through MLA and livecoupre.

How typical of these people who brutilise our Australian Animals to use these fresh young faces of farmers kids.

When are the farmers going to wake up to the fact they have been politically outwitted and reopen abattoirs off their own back so not to leave their children facing humilation and shame which is only goping to get worse as the time goes by.

Perhaps young Lach MacKinnon, Annabelle Coppin, Murray Grey, Atticia Grey, Dan Koric and Garry Robinson have not seen for themselves the utter cruelty involved in this trade.

Perhaps Lach MacKinnon, Annabelle Coppin, Murray Grey, Atticia Grey, Dan Koric and Garry Robinson ought to themselves understand we do not appreciate them trying to stand in the way of RSPCA and the Australian public.

Just to top it off public funding goes into MLA. If these young people get off on being the new face of cruelty and arogance then I suppose we must address them but personally I know they are being used by those too gutless to be named.

These are not men or women. No decent farmer or person Lach MacKinnon, Annabelle Coppin, Murray Grey, Atticia Grey, Dan Koric and Garry Robinson can stand back and see animals treated in such a manner.

Its not clever Lach MacKinnon, Annabelle Coppin, Murray Grey, Atticia Grey, Dan Koric and Garry Robinson being known as the face of cruelty.

IMOP you are being used however I also know they old - Get your picture in the media effect on you kids regarless of what its for.

We at pale cant not name and shame you just because IOOP your being used.

Hi PALE

Here is Annabelle Coppin's email:
arrie2ac@hotmail.com

She spent five minutes on the "Stella Deneb" some time ago, and is of course now an authority. You can read all about her at www.liveexportcare.com; go to Stockman Blog, I think (and probably the others too). Someone who got too close to her at an airport not long ago described her as "grubby" and "greasy". I'm still waiting for her to answer a series of questions I sent her over a year ago. Not too bright, was my impression.

I'd double check about Corral Lines - I thought they had flogged off all their sub-standard ships to Vroon, which quickly re-named them all to cover up their histories. Don't quote me though, they could still be operating out of Australia.

Good for you, for naming the others. Are you saying that Emanuels is claiming to have got out of live exports?

Cheers
Nicky