Hi all

PALE, I've looked at Sheill's document, and it is as I suspected. Although he doesn't reference his sources, they are from the livestock industries, such as lot feeders and intensive farmers, and has no credibility in any sense with animal welfare. The fact that it was endorsed by the PIMC means nothing, after all, they endorse battery hen farming and intensive pig farming. The report should have been entitled something like "How to get the biggest 'bang for your buck' out of your animals".

As for your "invitation to participate" - it apparently is not personally addressed and I would suggest that everyone who ever wrote a letter about animal welfare to any newspaper would have got such an invitation (and treated it with the contempt it deserved).

He makes no reference to consultation with the NCCAW or indeed any animal welfare groups. This report is nothing but an INDUSTRY blueprint for how to make the most money out of more animals. As for Sheill being "respected", by whom? Livestock industries?

Yabby, your critique is interesting. In particular, I find your comment about sheep on trucks with legs/heads jammed through the bars disturbing, particularly given that you people are happy to transport these animals across the country like that. Presumably you stuck your body parts out of trucks voluntarily.

If your sheep are dying trapped in fences you are not checking them often enough. 133 trailers of dead sheep seems pretty sigificant to me, I'm afraid, and putting grazing animnals on crappy ships for weeks to get slaughtered by savages in foreign countries is, by most sensible standards, "cruel and perverse". But when you put together a website of the WA people of that quality you will be in a better position to state the facts, I guess (which you haven't here). The course of nature where there are prey animals and predators is one thing, but cruelty for profit is quite another. Animals DO exist for their own reasons. You said so yourself - would they have been better off never to have been born?

Cheers
Nicky

Hehe Nicky, you would last only a few months, as a farmer. Mind you, plenty
of academics have tried farming and failed, so you would not be the first.

If you were to go patrolling every fenceline, every couple of days on your
property, your fuel costs would soon blow out, your budget would not add
up and the banks would sell you up in no time!

Much better to install fences where animals don’t get their heads stuck as I do.
Interestingly enough, no animal welfare group or farm group has ever picked
that one up to change things. They just keep rolling out the 30cm spaced
fences.

What evidence do you have, that sheep are not sticking their legs out of trucks
voluntarily? Sheep will do it, even if they are not overcrowded, so as with
humans, boredom might be a reason, as much as anything.

You addressed one part of the question, ignored the next. One species eating
another is perfectly natural and part of the food chain. Why do you ignore what
is perfectly natural ?

Fact is that farm animals in a natural grazing environment, as we run them,
as distinct from factory farming, are far better off then in nature, where great
cruelty exists. Over the fence in the natural park, they simply die of starvation
if there is no food, or die of diseases, slowly, suffering all the way. No eye treatments
or worm treatments, the fittest survive. My livestock have 200 tonnes of grain waiting in silos, in case they should ever get hungry. Any that can be treated are treated, any that are suffering are put down.

Yes, farmers have to make a profit from their labour, as academics do, or none of us
could pay our bills. You get paid by the hour, we get paid by the product of what
we sell. If they don’t pay academics, they go broke, just like farmers.

A recent survey south of here, involving 300 farms from 2002-2006, showed an average return on capital of about 1%. You would be broke in no-time!

Nicky
I think your missing the point. Kevin was appointed by the Government to organise the NCCAW. Ask you favouite person. She will fill you in.

I am not going to post Kevins personal Emails for God Sake.

You know where our office is and your welcome to view any docs you like so just drive down. Its not that far as you well know where we are.

Anyway Nicky So what. You made a big point out of claiming your buddies were on this board and pale were not.

Otherwise I wouldnt have even bothered to be discussing this.

What we decided was we would have loved PF and FreeRanger to have thrown their hat in the ring instead. Why dont you ask PF she still posts here from time to time.
Now can we move on.

As for Kevin Nicky I have a slightly different idea of him than you.

You see Nicky its people with knowledge contacts and background similar to his that is required to turn this around.

You just cant afford to targett people personally if you really want to make a difference.

Nicky Please try to remember we are all on the side of the animals. pale has never told your buddies what to do or how to do it.

We expected the same . WE didnt get that but sowhat. emails went out left right and centre not to work speak etc with us. So what. Its a pity really because its for the animals.

However in the end being so out on our own is in fact the best possible position to be in. The Government knows we are not extreme. They know we are looking at it from a more practicle approach and they have invited subs to them regarding regional areas and reopening plants.


Slaughtering here is better than live exports.
Think About it before you accuse us of killing animals.

I assure you I have 'no wish' to do this forever.

I have a boat the bush, beach and my horse and bird to spend my time with.

Evening all,

PALE, the NCCAW was formed in 1989. The AAWS helds its inaugural meeting in July 2005. As you can see below, there is not one person with a genuine interest in animal welfare represented (I do not include Hugh Wirth) no doubt for obvious reasons. Sheill is not mentioned either. And as I said earlier, my information is that all animal welfare entities were invited to contribute; however Sheill has no credibility in that area, and after his pitiful performances in the media during the "Cormo Express" disaster that is hardly surprising.

Membership of the AAWS Advisory Committee is as follows:

Chair: Dr John Drinan
Dr Bob Biddle, Acting Australian Chief Veterinary Officer
Prof Ivan Caple, Chair, National Consultative Committee on Animal Welfare
Dr Hugh Wirth, RSPCA
Dr Robin Vandegraaff, Chair, PISC Animal Welfare Working Group
Mr Keith Adams
Mr Warren Starick, NFF representative, NCCAW
Dr Kevin Doyle, Australian Veterinary Association
Assoc Prof Heather Yeatman, University of Wollongong
Dr Maxine Cooper, Primary Industries Standing Committee

However, it's your lucky evening. Its National conference is to be held on the Gold Coast in August/September - here's the link.

http://www.daff.gov.au/animal-plant-health/welfare/aaws/aaws_international_animal_welfare_conference

Yabby, it is far more likely that sheep stick their heads through bars because they are stressed and/or suffering from heat exhaustion, and their legs, from my observations, protrude because they are poorly loaded. Sheep would also have survived extremely well on their own in the wild without human intervention (but not in Australia, they are "exotic" animals). Nor did I ignore your point about nature; I differentiated between that and cruelty for profit, if you recall.

Cheers
Nicky

Interestingly enough, no animal welfare group or farm group has ever picked
that one up to change things. They just keep rolling out the 30cm spaced
fences.
A good point Nicky and this is just why we need farmers on the boards as well as others,.

You should send that on to you buddies.

A little knowledge might help lead to less suffering but only if you also listen to farmers

Nicky, sheep on a truck are not much different to school kids on a school bus.
You are jumping to all sorts of conclusions, without any evidence for your
claims.

I have carted crossy lambs, very lightly loaded, which can be a problem in itself
as sheep are better off tight enough to lean against one another. It was not hot
either. Still some stuck their legs out at times. They probably do it with as little
thought as we did, when schoolkids. Sheep have 4 legs, not 2. So they could
easily stand on only two of them, whilst leaning against the sides of the truck,
without thinking much. Even people will lean against walls at times, standing
on one leg.

IMHO it is your perceptions that are the problem, not what is happening to the
sheep. Yes their stress levels might be up a bit, doing something different. No
different to your first day at school. But that’s life. You had to go to school,
not frolic on the beach forever, sheep have to go on trucks, not frolic around
the pastures forever.

Yes, sheep are exotic to Australia, so are you, so are the veggies and fruits
in your garden. I see no effort by you to remove yourself or your plants.
You won’t turn the global clock back 200 years.

In the wild, sheep are just about extinct, due to the rapid rise in the global
human population. Given that they plan to add another 3 billion humans
to our numbers, I can’t see that changing anytime soon.

I certainly don’t think that putting sheep on a truck is cruel. It can be, if done
wrongly, but they can also be just fine.

Farming for profit is no different to being paid as an academic, it’s a living,
only that of an academic is a little more certain and less risky.

The animals on my farm in general have far better lives then those out
in nature. To me that matters, although I try to run them as naturally
as possible.