.....continued from above

If someone you knew joined a cult, you would ask “why?” If someone you knew committed suicide, you would ask “why?” If someone you knew committed murder, you would ask “why?” Muslims are just as human as you and I, have the same basic needs and desires as you and I, and are just as capable of being “good” or “evil”.

I’m sure to you, your “facts” and statistics support your beliefs, however I fundamentally disagree with the conclusions you draw and the solution you propose. I certainly don’t condone terrorism, and I don’t agree with any religion, let alone extremist versions of them, however I defend any person’s fundamental rights to exist, find safe haven, obtain sufficient food, shelter, clothing, medical care and education for their children, freedom and free speech, regardless of their beliefs (and regardless of whether they misguidedly believe I should be denied such things) and in whatever “country” they choose. Should I support any regime (including our own government) that denies such fundamental rights to any individual, religious or ethnic group, it is a short road to that regime denying such things of me. I believe we are already on that road.

The history of the Middle East, and of Islam, is a part of human history i.e. your history, and it is up us as humans to understand and solve the problems, not just isolate our selves from what we label as “evil”. As humans we have the ability to do so. As I said to coach earlier in this thread “the solution (simplistically due to word limits) is for average working class Christians, Muslims, Jews and members of all religions (and atheists) to recognize that they have more in common with each other than they do with their rulers and religious leaders, and that it is those leaders who are causing the wars, poverty and misery. They must then remove their leaders from power and reorganize society on the basis of human need, not profit.”

Dee ... "Do you hate Zionism or do you hate everyone who believes in it - which would obviously be every Jew living in Israel and the majority of Jews living in other countries"? Sarcastically poised his devious question sly-dee, because being a Tzioni (zionist) meant in Hebrew to every Jew child as being a patriot! Due to-profound-ingenuity-knack in-the-linked ZIONIST IMPERIALISM with the-sly-coined word Tzioni = Patriot. Hebrew songs are virtually saturated with a 'Tzioni' lingo to indoctrinate every-Jew-child by the elders-of-zion dogma.

This is indisputable fact, which has been known to the sly-dee, bent-to-carrel gullible-suckers intellect. By someone who-claims to-speak on-behalf of ..."every Jew living in Israel and the majority of Jews living in other countries"... Yeah in a typical Zionist chutzpah style, behind his silver-tongued prowess and slight-of-hand intrigued machinations to-ambush-brutally our truthful Jew-lesser brethren. Culminating in the heinous murder of my besieged-father (Michal) Moszek Tenenbaum in Poland by-the-barbarous elders-of-zion, just for speaking my mind for the better Australia.

Not since-the-witness Nazi-bestiality, the majority moral-humans-worldwide are horrified to-face Zionist barbarism perpetuation as-norm for-39-years in the occupied Palestinian territories of the West-Bank and Gaza. Whilst-blood-drenched Zionist psychopaths continue their fanatical drive for-a-greater eretz-Israel. Utilising always a same-old pattern-of-lies as-a-pretext for-war. As-they indulged-in-plotting-further with US neocons against the Syria and Iran. Ensuing diabolical warmongers blitz on the sovereign Lebanon. In reflection on-decades-long Zionist skirmishes with Hezbollah, as-routinely was-shelled the-land in-a-few Druze villages.

Where petrified dwellers for years remained straddled in no-mans-land, within Israeli-Syrian-Lebanese borders region. Likewise the Bedouin tribes that roamed-a-more hospitable parts-of the-Sinai-desert for centuries, faced now equally awful treatment from Israelis and the Egyptians alike, while being harassed and intimidated by the border patrols. Ultimately as Bedouins in the-Israeli-outback, were forced-to-give-up their-nomadic-lifestyle, while being herded into-a-shabby Zionist-amelioration-projects.

Lastly, the Christian minorities in Israel, such as Syrian Orthodox, Greek, Armenian, Chaldean Christians and Coptics endured sporadically carried-out harsh escapades (especially Palestinian Christians). Who have shrines and churches in Jerusalem, which are subject to-random searches. This is all quite-a-routine there, though it doesn't make a 'Western-Press' to-take-notice-about. Then when it does, it's being buried between the articles (unless-being-scrapped-altogether).

Dee ... "See? I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong - so anyone who feels 'offended' by my objection to cut and paste anti-Semitic diatribes and very offensive racial slurs (no matter who wrote them) - consider yourself apologised to"... declared despicable disinfo-blabbermouth (prone-to-shoot-himself in-a-foot). So why don't you make yourself-a-favour to Google: 'anti-Zionist Jews' or 'Jews against Zionism' (instead-of-cluttering-OLO-bandwidth).

At-the-time when-Jew-lesser brethren are deeply-troubled by Palestinians tragedy. As-a-result some-secular (non-zionst) Jews-in-Israel and abroad supported local and international peace-movements towards the creation-of-a-free and sovereign Palestine. Yet the radical Orthodox-Jews will-have none-of-it (recall who-killed Yitzhak-Rabin). They have an-iron-grip over the Israel's junta, besides agitating as-norm fundamentalist-settlers. Who having-strong-ties with the Zionist-Christian right in the US (totally-power-mad within the creed-of-creed hegemony).

Most-of-readers are-likely-already to-know that under such-a-fastidious religion-set-values Israel turned into-a-hotbed-of-corruption, unparalleled in the history-of-the-modern nation-states. Headed by the sacrosanct Israel as-a-centre for slave-trade, drugs, prostitution, investment-chicanery, banking rip-offs, money-laundering and blood-diamonds-trade. Coexistent via strong ties with Russian-Jews-Mafia, whose oligarch-affiliates take advantage of the Israel's sly-crafted Law-of-Return. Utilised "to-convert" expediently Russian-Jew-mobsters, to-Judaism.

What-a-hypocrisy? So that they can set-up-a-shop in Israel (which won't extradite them), whilst no Palestinian to-have any-right-of-return to their homeland. Where Israeli Mossad have-a-close-ties with expeditionary death-squads to-get our Jew-lesser brethren, unless hit-man being too busy in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. Besides subjugated Africa, Central and Sth-America, to endure Zionist sown calamities. To culminate with-a-huge part-played in Iran-Contra plot (global-arms-market). This is not-a-religion or a mindset, that I want any part of. It sickens me to know that fanatical Zionists would label me as a "self-hating" Jew, for daring to question anything having to-do-with the Zionist crimes committed against the humanity.

Which-is-precisely why I am so emphatically opposed-to it. I cannot-abide-any of the above-mentioned atrocities taking-place in-my-name. Judaism, Zionism and Israel's junta-dogma are so-intertwined-now, that if you question one-aspect, you invariably wind-up in-having to-question the others. Paradoxically, so-much-idolised by Zionists their-highly-revered Albert-Einstein was extremely wary-of-Zionism. Adamantly opposed-to the Zionist creation of an-exclusively Jewish national-home, nonetheless-erected over-dead-bodies. Whilst the lingered for nearly 60 years Palestinian survivors-in-refugee camps reached three millions and double that number endured in the diaspora.

Tao – When people mention ‘imperialism’ and ‘colonialism’ in the sole context of the West or the British Empire (when world history is replete with totalitarian empires) I assume that I’m in for a lecture on Evil Whitey and the harm we have caused.

There have been imperialist empires since the dawn of history – most were founded by non-Europeans. You say that Western civilization is built on violence but what civilisation is not? The empires of the Incas and Aztecs were despotic to a point we can scarcely imagine; Islamic invaders forced the defeated to convert at swordpoint and killed those who refused; the empires of Africa were unbelievably cruel – the image of King Gezo of Dahomey eating dinner in front of his death-house while watching victims being cut to pieces is a good example. For a civilization ‘built on violence and threat’ the Western world appears to be overwhelmingly attractive to Asians, Middle-Easterners etc, who are fleeing to the West in record numbers. Although we certainly have our faults, Western civilization is the best on offer.

'..whatever “country” they choose'

The obvious reason why they all choose the West is that our society can provide a superior way of life to the countries they have left. The West cannot accept a never-ending stream of refugees and immigrants – unless of course, we wish to obliterate ourselves. The problems of Middle Eastern countries (and others) will not be solved by exporting people wholesale to the West.

‘ from all accounts from moderate Muslims’

'Moderate Muslims' solve nothing, they have no power against the extremists. In Bankstown Town Hall in April this year, Islamist speakers claimed the “overriding commitment of a Muslim” was not to Australia but “Allah and Allah alone” – that attitude seems to me to be the prevalent one. Vile people such as Trad and al-Hilaly are in positions of leadership in the Muslim community; hate literature is on sale in Islamic bookshops; 'clerics' preach jihad and hatred in Sydney mosques - when are these famed 'moderate Muslims' going to protest?

Dee,

“Tao-–-When-people-mention-‘imperialism’-and-‘colonialism’-in-the-sole-context-of-the-West-or-the-British-Empire-(when-world-history-is-replete-with-totalitarian-empires)-I-assume-that-I’m-in-for-a-lecture-on-Evil-Whitey-and-the-harm-we-have-caused.”

Yet you appear to be entirely comfortable with giving lectures on the Evil Muslim and the harm they have caused. What you attempt to do is present the phenomenon out of context. Not only is this incorrect, but also you have double standards. You want to put the West’s imperialism in the context of history, but you don’t allow Muslim extremism to be viewed in the same context.

“The-obvious-reason-why-they-all-choose-the-West-is-that-our-society-can-provide-a-superior-way-of-life-to-the-countries-they-have-left.” Yes, fortunately for us at present we do have a superior way of life, built on the direct or indirect exploitation and oppression and of those peoples who are now fleeing.

“The-West-cannot-accept-a-never-ending-stream-of-refugees-and-immigrants-–-unless-of-course,-we-wish-to-obliterate-ourselves.” Then perhaps those people should not be forced to accept the never-ending stream of Western capitalists and opportunists and war-mongers coming in to extract wealth from them, leaving them little in return.

“The-problems-of-Middle-Eastern-countries-(and-others)-will-not-be-solved-by-exporting-people-wholesale-to-the-West.” I did not say they would.

If in, this age of globalization, capital is free to move without restriction across national boundaries, and the US and the other major capitalist countries are now not required to respect “National Sovereignty” in for example the Baltic States, Afghanistan and Iraq (and of course currently US backed Israel in Lebanon), or obey “International Law”, why should people be restricted in their movements?

You talk about vile hate-preaching Muslim leadership. I consider John Howard, George Bush et al to be vile and hate-preaching, and no different from Osama Bin Laden, except that they have the power and authority of the “state” and the world’s financial elite behind them. They send their foot soldiers to do their dirty work, just as OBL sends his foot soldiers to carry out suicide attacks.

Leo,

I too thought dee’s apology was a little half-hearted to say the least. In fact, the “profound” apology turned into a slap in the face. Devious and sly were apt descriptions on your part. Despite her claim to be admitting when she is wrong, she actually used it to reinforce and justify her own prejudices and behaviour. Obviously to dee, everyone who is anti-Zionist must be anti-Semitic. Just as everyone who is Muslim must be a hate-preaching, crime-committing, murdering, raping, terrorist ingrate.

Thanks for the google tip. It was interesting to see the amount of Jewish opposition to Israel – obviously even some orthodox Jews.

You might be interested in checking out this article http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jul2006/leba-j21.shtml, and indeed the whole website www.wsws.org for thorough news and analysis on the Middle East and everywhere.

Dee,

An interesting site I found after Leo’s suggested search was that of an American Jew, Eduardo Cohen, who traveled to Israel and Palestine to investigate human rights abuses http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/mideast/palestine/eduardoCohen.html

Some selected quotes for you:

“I-experienced-some-of-the-frustration-that-Palestinians-must-be-feeling-when-I-interviewed-numerous-Jewish-American-settlers-in-the-West-Bank-during-the-Persian-Gulf-War.-Many-of-those-I-spoke-with-were-from-New-York-and,-talking-about-Arabs,-spouted-some-of-the-most-hateful,-racist-diatribes-that-I-had-ever-heard.-I-was-reminded-of-the-racism-against-Black-Americans-that-I-witnessed-growing-up-in-the-American-South.“

“Clearly-there-are-virulently-racist-elements-within-the-greater-Palestinian-community...-but-I-found-a-real-difference-between-Israeli-racism-against-Arabs,-based-on-a-feeling-of-racial-superiority,-and-Palestinian-hatred-of-Jews-which-is-an-understandable-Palestinian-response-to-the-policies-of-the-Jewish-government-of-Israel-and-a-continuing-Jewish-occupation.”

“I-still-remember-the-amazement-of-Palestinians-there-when-they-learned-that-I-was-a-Jew-investigating-human-rights-abuses-by-the-Israeli-military-and-I-was-moved-by-how-quickly-I-was-invited-into-their-homes-to-share-tea-with-them.-And-I-will-never-forget-the-tears-of-appreciation-streaming-down-the-cheeks-of-so-many-Palestinians-who-were-so-genuinely-happy-to-meet-a-Jew-who-simply-saw-them-as-human-beings-and-as-equals-and-who-was-willing-to-acknowledge-their-suffering-and-listen-to-their-side-of-the-conflict.-The-only-Jews-they-had-ever-seen-in-their-villages-were-soldiers-there-to-assert-Israeli-control."

"Far-away-from-any-Israeli-protection,-in-the-heart-of-areas-controlled-by-Hamas,-I-felt-no-danger-whatsoever.-It-was-difficult-to-return-to-Tel-Aviv-and-talk-to-Jews-who-would-never-allow-an-Arab-to-set-foot-in-their-homes,-except-perhaps-to-clean-them,-and-who-would-explain-to-me-with-no-doubt-in-their-minds-that-it-was-impossible-to-reason-with-Arabs-because-they-didn't-share-the-same-faculties-of-thought-and-reason-that-"civilized-human-beings"-possess.-I-left-with-the-sharp-impression-that-anti-Arab-racism-in-Israeli-society-was-the-much-greater-obstacle-to-peace.-And-the-evidence-indicates-that,-ten-years-later,-it-hasn't-changed.“

So it appears that Islamic people aren’t the only people spreading hate and using violence, and it appears that Palestinians and Muslims are human after all.

Here also is a list of US action in the Middle East: http://www.zmag.org/shalomhate.htm entitled" Why do "They" hate us?