continued from above

But the crux of the matter dee, is that although you haven’t said it outright, you, despite having been presented with the facts (providing you care to look as hard at them as you do at evidence of the evil Muslim), rationalize and justify the use of violence on a massive scale using the most powerful military hardware in order to subjugate an entire population to imperialist rule.

You then have the unmitigated gall to sit in moral judgement of disenfranchised, dispossessed and brutalized Palestinians who are living under the jackboot of an illegal occupying (and don’t forget religious) force (also using the most powerful military hardware) with no prospects and no future, who fall victim to a reactionary ideology (promoted by their leadership to further their own interests) that promises them martyrdom, 72 virgins and (they hope, but misguidedly) the liberation of their own people.

In *Their Morals and Ours* Leon Trotsky pointed out that “history has different yardsticks for the cruelty” of the oppressed and the oppressor. “A slave-owner who through cunning and violence shackles a slave in chains, and a slave who through cunning or violence breaks the chains – let not the contemptible eunuchs tell us that they are equals before a court of morality!”

The hatred you see in ordinary Palestinians (however not that of their corrupt leaders) is the hatred of the oppressed for its oppressor. The state terrorism carried out by the likes of the US and Israel, essentially for the economic gains of a small minority of people, is the expression of the hatred (or indifference) of oppressors for all of humanity.

You, an apologist for oppressors, who have not lived what Palestinians have lived, have no right to pass your oh-so-pure moral judgement on them.

Tao – judging by your use of such hackneyed cliches as 'dispossessed and brutalized', 'living under the jackboot' you have overdosed on Karl Marx.

‘Classic appeasement.”

My words:

‘Australia was identified as an enemy long before the Iraq war. Bin Laden stated that Australia had been ‘warned’ not to interfere in East Timor.’

The Bali terrorists were instructed to target ‘white people’ because we are ‘all the same’ no matter our nationality. If the war in Iraq did not exist, there there would be some other excuse to hate us– the Palestinians, the Crusades, the 'historical victimisation’ of Muslims by the big bad West, our alliance with the US etc.

‘Oh why do they hate us?’ was a reference to the nonsense spouted by some people after murderous terrorist attacks, not to the war in Iraq. In fact, please point out anywhere in any post where I have supported the Iraq war. You can’t – because I have never supported it. To clarify:

The Australian government should not make decisions subject to the approval of Muslims (or anyone else).

‘to sit in moral judgement’

‘Bush&Howard=bin Laden’ is not a ‘moral judgement’? You make your 'moral judgements', I'll make mine.

I agree that the Palestinians are conned by their corrupt leaders – but how long will it take them to wake up? Initiating a death cult is not the way to achieve their aims. Do they ever ask themselves ‘where does all the money go?’ or 'how come the leaders kids aren't suicide bombers'?

‘apologist for opressors’

I assume you live in Australia, so answer this question:

The indigenous culture of Australia was destroyed by white settlement. Suppose that the surviving aboriginals created an organization like the PLO, vowed to keep fighting until every white person was dead and hid out in surrounding countries (like PNG or Indonesia) – then commenced firing rockets into Australia and sending suicide bombers into our towns. Maybe into your town. Lets hear your solution if you were in the position of 'jack-booted oppressor'.

Tao - Re WMDs in Iraq

Pres. Bush is not the only one who believes in the presence of WMDs -

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

Many political figures including Sandy Berger (Clinton National Security Adviser), - Madeline Albright (Clinton Secretary of State), - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA) concurred.

Since the removal of Saddam Hussein:

Sen. Rick Santorum, R-PA, and Rep. Peter Hoekstra, R-MI, released the declassified overview of a report produced by the National Ground Intelligence Center, the group that has searched Iraq for Saddam Hussein’s WMDs since 2004.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/21/060622014432.acs11f38.html

‘Since 2003, Coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions, which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. ... filled and unfilled pre-Gulf war chemical munitions are assessed to still exist. That means in addition to the 500, there are filled and unfilled munitions still believed to exist within the country.’

•In April 2004, Jordanian officials seize 20 tons of WMDs from al-Qaeda containing 70 different chemical agents, including Sarin and VX gas. King Abdullah announced on April 17 the stockpiles originated in Iraq.

•In early 2004, Dutch officials discovered five pounds of yellowcake uranium ore in scrap metal imported from Iraq.

•In subsequent months, the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) found parts of banned al-Samoud 2 (SA2) missiles shipped around the world as “scrap.”

•The following month, Saddam loyalists fired a “chemical binary projectile” filled with Sarin gas at U.S. troops in Iraq.

Perhaps there were WMDs after all.

dee

“Tao-–-judging-by-your-use-of-such-hackneyed-cliches-as-'dispossessed-and-brutalized',-'living-under-the-jackboot'-you-have-overdosed-on-Karl-Marx.“ Perhaps you should read a bit yourself, much better than overdosing on the Daily Telegraph.

Do you not understand what dispossessed means, or brutalized? Do you not agree that Palestinians have been violently dispossessed of their land by Israel? If not, please explain by what euphemistic phrase you would call it? I’ve always considered a dictionary to useful tool – perhaps you should try it.

The full comment was “who are living under the jackboot of an illegal occupying (and don’t forget religious) force (also using the most powerful military hardware) with no prospects and no future”. Do you not agree that Israel is illegally occupying the “Occupied Territories” and the only way they can maintain this is by brutal repression using $3 billion of US aid per year, more than half of which comprises military hardware? The power of their jackboot is clearly being demonstrated in Lebanon at the moment. BTW you also obviously have no problem with Israel using an extremist version of the Jewish religion as a pretext to claim the land of others.

“Oh-why-do-they-hate-us?’-was-a-reference-to-the-nonsense-spouted-by-some-people-after-murderous-terrorist-attacks,-not-to-the-war-in-Iraq.-In-fact,-please-point-out-anywhere-in-any-post-where-I-have-supported-the-Iraq-war.-You-can’t-–-because-I-have-never-supported-it.-To-clarify:

The-Australian-government-should-not-make-decisions-subject-to-the-approval-of-Muslims-(or-anyone-else).”

Now you have resorted to distorting your own arguments. Your comments about “classic appeasement” were clearly suggesting that by opposing the Iraq war I was appeasing terrorists.

*support* - I believe I said justify and rationalize. If you are not justifying and rationalizing the war, then why are you ferreting around finding pathetic examples to substantiate the myth that there was possibly a credible case for all-out war? A couple of quotes from your little article:

“The-lawmakers-cited-the-report-as-validation-of-the-US-rationale-for-the-war,-and-stressed-the-ongoing-danger-they-pose.” Mmm…validation of rationale = justifying and rationalizing.

“A-Pentagon-official-who-confirmed-the-findings-said-that-all-the-weapons-were-pre-1991-vintage-munitions-in-such-a-degraded-state-they-couldn't-be-used-for-what-they-are-designed-for."

Ohmigod! Immanent threat!!

So a couple of Republican politicians got given the job of publicizing the fact that some old degraded weapons were found - in attempt to validate an illegal invasion. Why? Because it would have been a PR disaster for Bush to hold out this puny find as justification for the quagmire and massive war crime that is now Iraq.

And what does it mean that Democrats were involved in the push for the US to launch a war? Merely that they are serving the same corporate interests as the Republicans – there is virtually no difference between them, just as there is no difference between the Labour and Liberal parties here.

If, as you say, you truly never supported the Iraq war, then it should follow that you must agree that the instigators of that war are guilty of breaking international law, and of committing unjustified mass murder. Is this the case? If so, what difference is there between them and Hitler, or Osama Bin Laden?

“I-agree-that-the-Palestinians-are-conned-by-their-corrupt-leaders-–-but-how-long-will-it-take-them-to-wake-up?-Initiating-a-death-cult-is-not-the-way-to-achieve-their-aims.-Do-they-ever-ask-themselves-‘where-does-all-the-money-go?’-or-'how-come-the-leaders-kids-aren't-suicide-bombers'?”

The same could be asked of you dee. When will you wake up and realise that you are being conned by corrupt leaders? We apparently have a booming economy if you believe them, yet there never seems to be enough money for hospitals or schools. Plenty for waging wars based on lies though, and giving tax breaks to the rich. The gap between rich and poor is ever widening. CEOs are getting golden handshakes, companies making record profits, while slashing workers jobs and wages. Some workers are lucky to get their entitlements for work they have already done. We have the ability to provide food, clothing, shelter, water, medicine to every person in the world, yet the rich are lining their pockets and sending the poor to war. Do you ever ask yourself why? At the same time, you might also ask yourself why the government and your media up there in Sydney are so intent on whipping up anti-Islamic fear. A clear case of creating vertical divisions within society in order to obscure the horizontal ones.

And no, initiating a death cult is not going to achieve their aims. I will attempt to deal with this and your question about aborigines in a later post.

And FYI, here is a picture of an Israeli girl writing messages on a shell destined for Lebanon.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/israel-refuses-ceasefire-request/2006/07/18/1153166347409.html

But according to you, Arabs are unparalleled when it comes to teaching their children hatred.

Tao - ‘.. justify and rationalize [Iraq]’

I believe that the war was not primarily about WMDs (although they certainly existed – ask the Kurds). My opinion: the invasion was intended to change the variables in the ME and place US troops near to Iran and Saudi Arabia - Saddam was foolish enough to give cause for concern. The US didnt think far enough ahead or take local and tribal loyalties into account (as usual) but I am not prepared to totally condemn the war –its one of those events that will take decades to analyse and it isn’t over yet.

According to relatives and friends in the Australian army, the reporting on Iraq is very one-sided so I prefer to wait and see.

“..the government and your media .. intent on whipping up anti-Islamic fear.”

Live in Sydney for a while before you make such accusations. On the contrary, the NSW government and media have tried to hush up the high level of Muslim crime and violence since the 1980s – they even tried to deny that the gang rapes had a racist base. Obviously reality didn’t gell with their multicultural dreams and of course they needed the votes of SW Sydney Muslims. The situation culminated in the Cronulla riots after years of complaints were ignored by NSW police – even then, only public anger forced them to make some half-hearted arrests of the gun-waving Muslims involved in the revenge raids.

‘your question about aborigines’.

The scenario is the same situation that Israel is in right now. Any Australian who totally condemns the actions of Israel should be prepared to say what they would expect their government to do in similar circumstances. Any Australian who believes that they are living on ‘stolen/occupied land’ and who condemns Israel should perhaps rethink. There but for the grace of God goes Australia.

“an Israeli girl writing messages on a shell destined for Lebanon.’

Follow the story further - apparently the press asked them to do so - just as the press used to bribe kids to throw rocks at soldiers in Belfast.