"Firstly 9/11 was not the start of any conflict. This was just another episode in a conflict that has gone on for many years.

This was an escalation, a big escalation of previous how do you call them "episodes."

"Who started it, who is to blame"

Islamic extremists, that's who. Hello, anybody home upstairs inside your head?

"You could argue until the cows come home over this but the US certainly didn't have clean hands by the time of 9/11"

There is no argument. Islamic extremists-totally at fault. USA, the victim. Speaking of not having clean hands, you didn't exactly treat those aboriginals so lovely did ya??

" And the invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11"

Nobody said it did.

"Secondly, while the apparent perpetrators of 9/11 were Muslim, that doesn't make Islam as a religion culpable"

Nothing apparent about it, they WERE MUSLIMS. Islam as a religion is culpable because it instructs war against the infidels.

"This is like saying many Catholic priests are paedophiles, therefore the Catholic religion is responsible for paedophilia."

Actually, the Catholic religious leadership of the church IS responsible for covering for those pedophiles all these years

Kevin22 that was a rather sad little piece.

Why is it so necessary to see the conflict as being entirely the fault of one side? That is not the real world.

I tend to be fairly pro US but that does not exclude the ability to see that their governments choices in international affairs have not always been fair to those impacted. 9/11 remains a horror in history but then those who carried out the attack did not have access to giant warships, cruise missiles, fleets of supersonic bombers and the like to carry out their work in a more civilised manner (some irony there in case you didn't notice it). We remain horrified by brutality that lead to the deaths of those the few thousand but mostly live with the collatoral damage resulting from fighting for what we believe is right. I was glad to see the overthrow of Sadam but wonder how many innocents died during "Shock and Awe".

In regard to holding all muslims to blame for the actions of extremists - would you blame a baptist for corruption in the Catholic Church because that is what you are doing when you blame all muslims for the actions of one portion of their faith. Feel free to blame their god for not intervening but not those who don't share the same views and who don't have any control over the actions of the perpetrators.

A belief that all of the other side is evil and that our side is righteous does not help us learn to do better in the future, it just leads to the kind of wrong thinking that motivated those who piloted those planes in their final moments.

R0bert

Tao - '.. everywhere the Western Christian white man goes on his imperialist crusades ..'

'Imperialist crusades'; 'colonised by Western Imperialsim'

When a person uses this kind of language I know that further communication is a waste of time for us both. However:

" .. many factors .. which contribute to someone going so far as to strap explosives to their body and blow themselves to smithereens taking others with them.'

This action appears to be carried out solely by Muslims, encouraged by radical clerics using the koran as justification. Muslims are not the only 'oppressed' people in the world but they are the only ones carrying out suicide bombings.

"I’ve just come back from Europe and it doesn’t seem too “disastrous” to me."

I wonder if the people of Paris (two weeks of Muslims rioting and burning) and Denmark (Muslims rioting and burning over cartoons) or Holland (the murder of Theo van Gogh by a radical Muslim) would agree with you? All the Europeans I met, including my relatives, were worried about the situation. When I was in Antwerp, I witnessed an anti-Jewish riot carried out by Muslim immigrants, mostly Algerian. Guess it depends where you go.

" ..facts you conveniently dismiss in your “genuine debate”."

I didnt know we were discussing the effect of western civilisation on indigenous people. I thought we were discussing the dangers of large scale Islamic immigration on western civilisation. At least the Australian aboriginals need not worry - Sheik al-Hilaly has informed us that the ancient aboriginals were in fact Muslims. That should make us all feel better about the latest con - $8 million of taxpayers money for an 'Islamic institute'.

I am posting this in a hurry, if you want sources and stats for rape/violence/honour killing in Europe, I can provide them when I return.

Thanks guys for your thoughtful replies, glad to join voices of reason frequented OLO forum, as within my prelude I am to share the encountered facts-of-life in reflection on the Jew-lesser brethren endured subjugation in the land of 'milk-n-honey'. Though I am new to this unique on-line-opinions site, I must admit that thus far, I like what I see, the participatory democracy in its making. As our live-vital topics are debated here fearlessly. So I am about to share from a first-person-perspective (beyond the glance at-the-tip of-an-iceberg).

I am not an-armchair scholar, who have been to the Middle-East long enough. Where my impressions have been formed from talking and interacting with Israelis and Palestinians alike. As-well-as such other subjugated minorities in the eretz Israel. I should add that although I was born and raised Jewish, I am not practising Jew, due to reasons impacted largely by witnessing what has been going-on in Judaism's name (Zionist collateral ravage fallout consequences).

Certainly like most white-suburban Jews, I was initially brainwashed, so it was very-hard to unshackle one's mind-n-soul subsequently, while coming to grips with the-horrific-reality. Don't expect for it to-occur overnight, but it eventually to-happen. As you wake-up one day to-realise that you've been-fed-nothing trustworthy, but diabolically concocted lies within-the-utter chutzpah-propaganda by the Zionist clutches. Who programmed you to-carry-on their hideous Zionist meme and spread it like-a-viral infection.

The truth began dawning on me after prolong stay-in-Israel. While there, I witnessed the impact that an-extreme-religious-right has in Israel. Essentially, capable to trigger an armageddon within the Middle-Eastern region. Where radically indoctrinated religious zealots indulging themselves in-shutting-down a whole-country via violent stand-offs, if they don't-get-their-way. It doesn't take much to-provoke-them just-an-aeroplane flying overhead or an-ambulance taking-a-shortcut via Hassidic neighbourhood on the Sabbath.

Yet moreover disturbing was to-witness-the-way-in-which the Falasha-Jews of Ethiopia were treated in Israel. Contrary to the multicultural fanfare spin in how the humanitarian-Israeli-junta was able to get them out of Ethiopia into-national Jewish-home. Then these very same Ethiopian-Jews were treated afterwards like-a-second-class-citizens (if not for Palestinian conflict's deflection, a civil war between ashke-Nazim and Sephardic Jews was imminent).

Mind you, the radical Orthodox-Jews don't even consider Falasha-Jews of Ethiopia to-be true-Jews, since they've been cut-off from the mainstream-Judaism for-so-long. Though if anything, the way the Falashas practice Judaism, is actually closer to the original than-anyone-else. Yet that's conveniently being ignored by the domineering Orthodox-Jews, who hold all the reigns-of-power in the Israeli-junta-subjugated-nation.

Needless-to-mention that Falashas are black, what-only-fuels the racist flames, profoundly burning in the supremacist Israel. Where I've personally witnessed-a-group of Hasidic Jews throwing rocks at a group of Falashas. As these young Hasidic Jews were calling them "schwartzas" in yiddish for blacks, in-an-attempt to-drive them away from praying at the Western-Wall. Yet nearby Israeli-police-did-absolutely-nothing (this-is-more-typical there, than one might think).

Also, Falashas are relegated to-hold the jobs, no-one else wants. The lucky ones make some money at fixing cars, but most live-in-poverty. That's the other thing, divisions between the extremely rich and very poor in Israel, are profoundly wide. Lots of poor neighbourhoods in the big cities with-a-high crime-rate are just like in the corrupted US (stemming-to-black-panthers). Its no Jewish utopia in Israel, but a hell, where accommodation-rents are outrageously high and overall cost-of-living is skyrocketing.

Most-of-poor Israelis tend to-be either Falashas or Sephardic-Jews of Middle-Eastern or Nth-African descent. There is a definite-racist-bias, based on origins and the most crucially, skin-colour. As wealthy privileged Jews tend to be ashke-Nazim of European descent, besides their arrived counterparts from America. Who are living in a sheer opulence on settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories.

In reflection on disenfranchised minorities way-of-life, rendered to survive in Israeli land of plenty, on a meagre subsistence. Where Druze mountain people (who have been living for centuries in the Golan Heights), became displaced by the various wars that have taken place. While their Druze counterparts living in Lebanon, who sided with and served Israelis during 80's onslaught, were double-crossed subsequently and left to-fend-for-themselves against the Hezbollah, Shiite Amal and Christian Phlangists alike. Who used Druze inhabitants as a cannon-fodder or for target practices.

Dee

“'Imperialist~crusades';~'colonised~by~Western~Imperialsim'~

When~a~person~uses~this~kind~of~language~I~know~that~further~communication~is~a~waste~of~time~for~us~both.~“

What “kind of language” are you talking about. Do you not know what imperialism and colonisation are? Have you never heard of the British Empire? Do you not realise Australia was a British colony? Many Western nations engaged in imperialism and colonisation – the French, Germans, Dutch, Spanish, Portugese etc. Generally and simplistically, that means that they imposed their own religious, political and economic systems on other peoples against their will and by force in order to exploit human and natural resources and create markets for their own products. Do you deny such historical facts?

"~..facts~you~conveniently~dismiss~in~your~“genuine~debate”."

”I~didnt~know~we~were~discussing~the~effect~of~western~civilisation~on~indigenous~people.~I~thought~we~were~discussing~the~dangers~of~large~scale~Islamic~immigration~on~western~civilisation.”

Actually this thread is about lies and propaganda being used as a pretext for war, discussion about Islamic immigration is somewhat of a digression itself.

However, the point that I was making, which you seem to refuse to acknowledge, is that our so-called Western “freedom and democracy” is built on the oppression and destruction of foreign indigenous populations, not to mention the exploitation of its own “western” workers, through the use of violence, or threat of violence. Again, do you deny such historical facts? At the risk of being accused of “lame moral equivalency” it is a bit rich for Westerners to claim the moral high ground (as you appear to do) when our history is littered with the corpses of those individuals and communities that couldn’t withstand the onslaught. (Of course a distinction must be made between the average everyday person and the ruling elite, but that will have to wait for another time.} You say everywhere Muslims go there is violence, I say there already was. Do you dispute this?

"~..~many~factors~..~which~contribute~to~someone~going~so~far~as~to~strap~explosives~to~their~body~and~blow~themselves~to~smithereens~taking~others~with~them.'

This~action~appears~to~be~carried~out~solely~by~Muslims,~encouraged~by~radical~clerics~using~the~koran~as~justification.~Muslims~are~not~the~only~'oppressed'~people~in~the~world~but~they~are~the~only~ones~carrying~out~suicide~bombings.”

I do not dispute that fundamentalist Islam is a particularly reactionary ideology which is a huge contributing factor to suicide attacks. However from all accounts from moderate Muslims, it is a bastardization of Islam. We should also be asking ourselves what drives people to the point of embracing such an ideology in the first place – and the answers will be more complex than just “ideology”.

continued.....