dee

“Iraqi-democracy-in-the-ME-would-not-be-a-bad-thing-per-se”

No, probably not. However the so-called “democracy” being installed in Iraq is not genuine democracy at all. “Democracy” forced on people through violence cannot in any way be considered a democratic movement of the people. In fact, if a cohesive and truly democratic movement were to form in Iraq, and be allowed to have its say, the US would probably be run out of town – which the US would not like at all – witness Hamas in Palestine. After claiming to be bringing “freedom and democracy” to the ME, the US comprehensively rejected the Palestinians’ democratic voice – because they are not pro-US. And not content with simply expressing their dissatisfaction with the choice of the Palestinian people, they cut off all funding and condoned Israel withholding taxes that they collect on behalf of the Palestinian Authority, in order to bring about a crisis.

“Will Iraqis-in-the-future-feel-that-being-freed-from-a-despot-was-worth-the-ensuing-loss-of-life?” This is a totally stupid, loaded, and patronising question. Firstly we’ll never know what the dead ones think, because they’re dead. Secondly, are you suggesting that some other nation’s leaders have the right to decide that you will die? - because later down the track you’ll thank them – father knows best sort of thing. This is nothing like dying for a cause or a belief, these people are dying so the US can get control of their oil. Yet you are trying to give it some sort of romantic gloss in order to justify your unprincipled approval of imperialist violence.

I think you are completely out of touch dee – you are not seeing these people as human beings, they are just some “other” to you, who (in your imagination) will be grateful for what has been meted out to them. Well the news is – they are p**sed off – and rightfully so – just as you would be.

to be continued

continued from above

And of course there is the mandatory recourse to the “despot” Saddam. Of course, the guy was tyrant. So what? There are plenty of tyrants in the world that the US does nothing about because they are either pro-US, or there is no geostrategic interest to the US. Let us not forget that the US was happy to deal with Saddam, even selling him the chemicals, while he was their “bastard”.

“I-never-believed-that-a-simple-oil-grab-was-the-reason-behind-the-war.-However,-I-did-consider-that-the-Bush-admin.-believed-the-occupation-of-Iraq-plus-establishment-of-permanent-US-military-bases-would-discourage-OPEC-producers-from-switching-the-denomination-of-oil-sales-from-USD-to-euros.-Also,-the-US-may-need-to-control-the-Ghawar-oil-fields-in-Saudi-Arabia-in-case-of-a-Saudi-coup-by-an-anti-western-group-–-there-are-signs-of-coming-unrest-in-Saudi.”

So again you appear to be condoning the US using overwhelming violence to achieve its aims (whatever they may be), regardless of the will of the people of a region (remembering of course that the oil of those fields “belongs” to the people of that region to do with what they will). And before you say it, yes their leaders are corrupt – but don’t you think that is a matter for those people to decide? If there is an anti-western coup in Saudi Arabia so be it – the Saudi regime isn’t exactly a beacon of democracy itself. If OPEC chooses to switch the denomination of oil sales, so be it – that’s the “free market”. Where does the US get off using military force, killing innocent people in the process, to engineer the market and Saudi leadership their way?

Again, given your willingness to accept that the US (and Australia) using violence to achive its aims is legitimate, you cannot credibly condemn anyone else for using force to achieve their aims. You can therefore not condemn Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims etc. for believing that using violence is legitimate – anywhere, even here. Do you agree that this is the consequence of your logic? I am interested in seeing your response because, as I see it, there is no real point going on until this is clarified.

BTW, I understood perfectly what the question was, and will deal with it once you demonstrate that you are capable of seeing, and acknowledging, the contradiction in your own thought.

Tao – this will be my last post for a while so I will try to address all your questions here.

‘Democracy forced on people through violence’

And despotism isn’t forced on people by violence? Democracy was forced onto Japan and Germany by the Allies and worked out quite well. Saddam has been removed and a vacuum created, should it be filled by yet another tyrant or religious Fascist? There is no reason why a form of democracy (where even women have a voice) should not work in the ME. The invasion of Iraq is a fait accompli and cannot be reversed - should the US now withdraw and leave the country in a state of instability?

‘US comprehensively rejected the Palestinians’ democratic voice’

Hamas is a terrorist organization that has carried out dozens of suicide bombings against Israel and has stated that it opposes peace talks and will not disarm. The EU has also classified Hamas as a terrorist organization. Voting for it in a democratic fashion does not outweigh the fact that a vote for Hamas was a vote to continue the attacks on Israel. Where is the sense in funding a group dedicated to ones destruction?

‘patronising question’

Nobody will ever know the true number of Iraqis who were tortured/raped, murdered then buried in mass graves. Saddam also stole billions from the Iraqi people in collusion with the UN oil-for-food scams. Maybe he was ‘just another dictator’ to you – but ask the tens of thousands of Iraqis his regime drove from their homes if they are happy to see him gone.

‘This is nothing like dying for a cause or a belief,’

Many Iraqis are dying for a cause (al-qaeda’s cause) - whether or not they choose to - in suicide bombs, attacks on civilians, kidnappings, assassinations of judges, the killings of prisoners – even homosexuals have been targeted by death squads. To quote Ayman al-Zawahiri (CEO of al Qaeda):

"the Islamic Emirate can be established [in Iraq] and the mujahideen would then move from this Emirate to Palestine to fight the Jews."

Cont.

Tao - if al-Qaeda triumphs, Iraqi is destined to be an ‘emirate’ under sharia law. If the US triumphs, a form of democracy will be implemented.

‘ violence is legitimate’

How do we fight terrorists who hide among the civilian population? How do we kill them without also killing civilians? What do we do if terrorists are carrying out attacks from Islamic Country X and the government of that country cannot/will not arrest them? Is a pre-emptive strike against them permissable even though civilians of Country X may be killed? Since our own lives are in danger, my opinion is 'yes'.

‘their “bastard”.’

In the real world, today’s ‘our bastard’ is tomorrow’s enemy. The US acts in its own interests the same as every other country. ME countries receive billions of dollars annually in US aid and western countries accept millions of migrants and refugees fleeing from these countries - yet they expect to be free of all attached strings?

‘a matter for those people to decide?’

Yes - but since those people have no democratic voice at all, how do they decide? Did the Iraqis ‘decide’ their form of government? Do all ME people agree with al-Qaeda's agenda? I dont think so.

‘ you appear to be condoning’

Its possible to state facts without ‘condoning’ the situation.

‘Ghawar-oil-fields-in-Saudi-Arabia’

Saudi Arabian oil money finances terrorism throughout the world and the establishment of Islamic schools with jihad and hatred of non-Muslims as their main subjects. The anti-Jewish and anti-Western propaganda coming from Saudi is stomach-turning, so any group taking over SA would be rabidly anti-western and could possibly cut off oil supplies. This would destroy our economies and cause chaos – do we have the right to ensure to the best of our ability that this doesn’t happen? Yes, imo.

‘the contradiction ... ’

Of course there is contradiction – these issues are not black and white and never will be. It is not a simple case of identifying the enemy and taking appropriate action, many innocent people on both sides die in a conflict of this nature.

Some facts for you dee:

Hitler was elected “democratically”.

Al-queda moved into Iraq AFTER THE US INVASION.

Your ignorance and stupidity (or is that blatant peddling of warmongering propaganda?) are breathtaking.

I’m afraid you have just proven that you see can only see issues in black and white yourself. And you are a hypocrite.

US and Israeli (and Australian) violence, in contravention of international law, is OK as far as you’re concerned – unconditionally. You continually cite mitigating factors which have been fed to you by the perpetrators of such violence.

Arab and Muslim violence is to be condemned according to you – unconditionally. No mitigating factors allowed.

“The anti-Jewish and anti-Western propaganda coming from Saudi is stomach-turning, so any group taking over SA would be rabidly anti-western and could possibly cut off oil supplies. This would destroy our economies and cause chaos – do we have the right to ensure to the best of our ability that this doesn’t happen? Yes, imo”

You are happy for thousands of Iraqis to die to secure YOUR oil supply and save YOUR economy. Chaos in Iraq rather than in Australia. A small price to pay according to you – obviously to you they are just sub-human Arabs after all.

Talk about stomach-turning and rabid. Your self-inflated, small minded, hate-riddled diatribes are FILTH.

I am much more concerned about an Australia filled with people like you than I am about one filled with Muslims.

You make me sick.

Tao – I stated several posts ago that I didn’t see the point of further discussion with you and you have just proven me correct. And no answer to any question I posed – except emotional nonsense, as I expected.

* Would you expect your government to hunt down terrorists attacking us from another country if the govt. of that country refused to do it?

* Would you veto interference if ME oil-producers cut off the oil (for which we pay top dollar) and Australia descended into chaos and violence?

* Should the US withdraw from Iraq and leave the country in a state of instability?

* How do we fight terrorists who hide among the civilian population?

Hmm, no viable answers from you, what a surprise. Except ‘Hitler was elected’. Gee, really?

‘.. Muslim violence is to be condemned according to you’

I condemn Muslim ‘violence’ if it constitutes beheading bound captives, suicide bombings against civilians etc. This is not ‘fighting’ legitimately, it is cowardice and sadism justified by religion.

‘ fed to you by the perpetrators of such violence’’.

Yeah, yeah - you make up your mind without influence, anyone who disagrees with you has been ‘fed’ or ‘brainwashed’.

Some facts for you, Tao:

In case you haven’t noticed, Western countries are engaged in a war with extremist Islam. Western countries have been infiltrated with extremist Muslims – even someone as naïve as you must have noticed that Muslims are on trial for terrorism in nearly every major Western country.
‘
‘Chaos in Iraq rather than in Australia’

If it ever comes to a choice of this nature, and I hope it does not, I will reluctantly choose that chaos happens somewhere else. I will choose to put Australia first every time – the same as most people do when it comes to the final choice. If fools like you don’t agree, too bad.