"But you missed the point of my argument completely."

Yabby

You don't have an argument particularly when you foolishly state:

"Its not due to your anthropomorphisms about
intellectualising the minds of sheep."

and:

"It shows yet once again why housewives like yourself , get it all wrong and why we need professionals in the respective fields."

If it were possible for you to quit your addiction to "I, me, myself" you would have realised that I was quoting from papers provided by qualified professionals in animal research:

Profs. Webster and Kendrick and Dr Caroline Lee.

*I was just getting so tired of the same old personal insults from Yabby.*

Err Fractelle, I did explain to you that I defend myself, when
insulted by the DickiesnNickys of this world. But then perhaps
this is just another case of the OLO sisterhood sticking together,
which does not surprise me. Only your clear bias is a little obvious
in this case. I have not commented on the Chinese fur trade, mearly
commented about ugg boots being just fine and quite different.

Dickie, your comment about why sheep will run headlong into steel
or other solid matter, was your personal anthropomorphism and had
nothing to do with any expert opinions. Reread your own post.

You have no idea as to why those lambs were being weighed, or what
treatments they have had. As it just happens, they are from my
experimental flock, which still have tails and testicles intact.

Sheep behavioural experts, who are qualified in the field, will tell
you that it is due to temperament, but course Dickie the housewife
knows better yet once again! Wisecracks from the cheap seats, simply
show up your ignorance about this topic.

As far as China is concered the best we can do is to try to open a RSPCA in China.

Education is the key and there could not be a better time as China claims to want to open up more to the world they may be quite interested to be involved in a international organisation.

We must be very careful not to only attack them.

RSPCA QLD and sea world for example have done a lot of work with China re bears and housing.
If a proposal was put together in the correct manner and possibly? supported by Sea world who have been working with heads perhaps we could slowly help them to make changes.

China has spent a lot of money to make some changes.

To encourge good Animal Welfare in China is the best way to approach it.

I think we will only acheive some things for the better if we think how we can educate while leaving them some pride.

Very difficult thing to do of course when one sees such utter cruelty.

The other thing we can do is set a good example by by having good Animal Welfare ourselves.

These problems call for a cool head and wise leaders who can educate and befriend them not offend and make enermies.
If we do that we can never help the animals.

Nicky and everyone

Below is a link to sign a petition for the World Society for the Protection of Animals - Australia and New Zealand.

http://www.wspa.org.au/animal_week.asp

"Promoting animal welfare, protecting human health
In the last 10 years, over 75% of the diseases that reached people were caused by infections from animals or animal products. Recognising that better care for animals will also help prevent the development of diseases that can be passed to humans, WSPA and the Pan American Health Organization (PAHO) are working together for change."

Now,Yabby.

I have no idea why there is such a dearth of males on Animal Welfare threads here on OLO. It is a shame because, you have a very limited view on animal welfare - I take you haven't bothered to read any on the links that have been provided. This topic really needs contribution from more people - not just the usual suspects.

That there are primarily women expressing their concerns regarding animal welfare is beyond my understanding. I do not encounter such an imbalance in my own activities.

Anyway, I can understand that you feel isolated on this topic, therefore it would behoove you not to take swipes at Nicky et al because of their gender, and instead stick to the debate. We are not all "girls" or "housewives" - I am sure that there is a variety of women here who come from diverse back grounds - just like men really. Yeah really. When you lump all women together as some kind of anti-male conspiracy it is insulting, and you wonder why people react. This "Dickie started it first" just sounds whiney and immature. Get over it.

Either debate the issue or leave.

Fractelle, thanks so much for the link to that petition. With regard to Yabby, I have made a decision not to continue pointless arguments with him (since "ugg boots" are entirely irrelevant to this particular debate anyway) beyond wholeheartedly endorsing your comments about gratuitous sexist insults, and lame, repetitive, baseless arguments that we are all bored senseless by.

PALE, I take it that if bullying and threats doesn't work, the new strategy is patronizing. How dare you? You have no way of knowing what anyone else does or doesn't know, beyond being so blind in your own self-aggrandizement. That DOESN'T WORK ANY MORE.

It would be very interesting to know what precisely RSPCA Queensland has done about bear bile farming, but SEA WORLD? The last time I looked these particular bears were not sea creatures, and it may have escaped your attention that Sea World's business is in fact keeping wild sea creatures in captivity for human entertainment (and I use the term loosely, obviously). And this - the fur trade and the feeding of live animals to captive predators can all be fixed with an RSPCA and ... EDUCATION (and SEA WORLD)?

GIVE US A BREAK!

Celivia, I am so sorry you are leaving us, but I fully understand why. Please take the time to sign the petitions about fur that have been posted here though.

Cheers
Nicky

Fractelle, I pointed out to you why mostly women post on the animal
welfare threads, you have yet to refute the basic biology. Ad hominem
attacks are not going to do it for you, sorry.

I freely admit that my debating style is not the touchy-feely-
sensitive-feminine type that most females seem to prefer. Well that's
just too bad. I make informed points of reason, any of you are free
to refute them. The fact that most of the time you can't, makes
my point for me. I also refuse to deny basic biology and neuroscience,
in the name of your feelgood defence of your sisterhood.
Put up or shut up please, Fractelle.

I certainly do not feel isolated on this topic, simply highly amused
by it :) Here we have a bunch of feelgood, unqualified posters,
way out of their depth, insulting agriculture and the thousands
of professionals who work in the industry. When they make statements
which are nonsense, I point it out, its a simple as that. I did not
raise live exports on this thread, nor the other topics raised, but
I will certainly respond, when feelgood posters dribble on, well as
they might mean it, with huge little hearts and all.

The last Pale post actually made some sense. China is evolving and
changing, from a point of starvation, towards a modern economy.
As that happens, RSPCA China and similar, would make lots of sense.
Just insulting the Chinese, will get you exactly nowhere, for they
will tell you to get stuffed, in the name of pride.

No I won't sign your petition, as its little more then a feelgood
exercise and won't make a scrap of difference. Its also a great
way for WSPCA to rattle the tin. Creating more RSPCAs in China
itself, makes far more sense.