Hi all
CJ, I don't think it is an argument that is based in gender; for example in the farming journals you will see plenty of women supporting mulesing and castration (with no pain relief). Nor do I believe that all farmers are deliberately cruel. I certainly agree that without the intervention of PETA, nothing would be done about mulesing and pain relief though.

Nor is this about vilifying all farmers. I will, without hesitation, vilify farmers who are deliberately breeding animals for a live export trade which is egregiously cruel (and let's be clear here, 40,000+ animals die on the ships every year with the numbers rising, and that's BEFORE the survivors are brutalized in importing countries). Feedlots ARE an abomination in the context of the "Five Freedoms" as posted here by Fractelle, and they were determined by the Brambell Committee of the UK Farm Animal Welfare Council over a decade ago as the MINUMUM rights of ALL animals. We ensure (largely) than these needs are met in "companion" animals, but look at what we do to other animals simply because they are "food" animals.

Jonathan Balcombe, in "A Pleasurable Kingdom", along with many other scientists, writes that animals are conscious and capable of experiencing feelings, and basic emotions such as happiness, sadness, boredom and depression. And do we care about that, with farmed animals? Clearly not. Well done to those choosing free range.

Poor Yabby, of course, cannot get past gender insults in putting his case for the worst of the farmers. He has absolutely no way of knowing my qualifications or level of expertise in anything, so this is his only form of expression when he has nowhere to go.

Nicky

Oops Nicky, you are getting older lol. You clearly have forgotten,
what you have written in previous posts! Political Science just
does not cut it, when it comes to livestock production or knowing
about the species concerned. We use qualified people for that,
not emotional amateurs.

Yes animals experience emotions, nobody is denying that. But seeing
the world through the eyes of a sheep, is quite different to the
eyes of a dog or a human. You need to understand the species and
their worldview, for that you need experience. Its taken me thirty
years to learn what I know and then I still learn something new
every day. I admit, some people don't bother to learn, even if
involved in the industry and some people like you have never learned,
as you have not worked in the field. Anthropomorphism just
does not cut it, I am afraid.

Yes, some sheep die on boats. As some sheep die in feedlots, as some
sheep die in paddocks, or in yards, or on trucks. There are all
sorts of reasons for that. Once again, only the ill informed are
horrified at a 1% death rate in a feedlot. Sheep have tiny brains
and when in good condition, a huge amount of muscle power.

I was weighing a few boisterous lambs (well around the 60kg mark)
just yesterday. Most walk in quietly, the odd one will charge
full-on, into solid steel. They can break their necks, do themselves
brain damage, etc. etc. All part of the sheep world, which you
don't understand and never will, until you go and gain some experience.

But then even the word "livestock" is a problem for you, even though
its in the dictionary and is used as part of our language. Extremism
of a fanatic, yet once again

Yabby, I have said I am not debating the blindingly obvious any more with you. But what makes you think my only qualification is in political science? The term "livestock" lacks respect for the sentient beings we are talking about, thus I prefer the animals' proper names (species if you will). There is nothing extreme about that, it is simply a preference.

Nicky

Hello Everyone.



Nice to see so many and especially pleased to see Celivia posting.

IamJoseph,

A new face with well thought out comments and a sense of fairness

Hope you will continue to be involved.

Thank You, I am Joseph.

Yabby
Today I was speaking with an x sheep farmer who tells a different story about live exports. He spoke of their faces distorted with fear in their eyes on the trucks.

He also understands that farmers need to make a quid. What we have to do here is to unite and stand up to the Governments to cut the red tape they use to protect this trade.

Give farmers some viable alternatives- but you have to help yourselves too. All farmers have a moral obligation to these animals they breed as we as the citizens of Australia. We need our farmers in this country and uniting against the red tape together is the answer.

Every regional council should be supporting local abattoirs.

MLA has final say over the councils as to where plants can and can’t operate. It stinks to high heavens.
Speaking of MLA I noted your comments on feedlots- I agree- true.
What I don’t understand about you is what makes you think that feed lots are ok.
You keep saying that many die in feed lots so why not live exports.

It doesn’t make sense. Why do we have feed lot owners setting the standards?

What’s wrong with the smaller farmers that are left standing up?

Why can’t you guys rally a few together and call a meeting with your local regional councils and councilors.

Why not form Co ops plants? I think you might be amazed at the support you would get from the public.
Combine that with addressing Rudd and the Minister for immigration to stop blocking workers in abattoirs.


Work with Animal Welfare organizations so they can drive home the point farmers need to make equal to selling for live exports.

All you are doing really is stopping the middle man (live shipping agents) from ripping you off in the first place.

This thread was about the horrific treatment of animals in China, not resurrecting the live export debate from multiple other threads. The thread about the baby whale went the same way. It was so nice to see other people posting, now I guess we will lose them.

PALE, it would be really good if you kept your mantra to threads on which it is relevant, and stopped corrupting ones where it is not.

It is something of a leap to suggest that MLA controls where Councils will approve slaughterhouses, just for the record.

Nicky

Yabby

You are no match for Nicky - neither intellectually or ethically. Why do you continue to explain away the inhumane treatment of defenceless animals with vacuous insults? The informed public knows that a tyrant to animals is a tyrant.

"I was weighing a few boisterous lambs (well around the 60kg mark)
just yesterday. Most walk in quietly, the odd one will charge
full-on, into solid steel. They can break their necks, do themselves
brain damage, etc. etc."

If you were being weighed prior to transport on the ships of shame, or for imminent slaughter and separation from the flock, you would be panicking also - particularly after already suffering unimaginable terror and pain from various mutilating surgical procedures.

It's occurred to me that the adrenalin levels in the animals you terrify must be sky high when they are finally killed. Just what that does to the people who eat them I cannot imagine.

Recently Australian and British researchers, in separate trials, concluded that sheep and cattle are indeed intelligent creatures but you insist they are vapid simpletons. Is it because they don't speak your lingo?

Researchers at the McMaster Laboratory in Australia have shown that sheep can learn and remember tasks. “Using the maze, we have already shown that sheep have excellent spatial memory and are able to learn and improve their performance," said researcher Dr Caroline Lee.

Professor Webster, professor of animal husbandry at Bristol University, has published a book on the topic, entitled 'Animal Welfare: Limping Towards Eden.'

Speaking of the intelligence and sentience he witnessed during his research, Webster said, “People have assumed that intelligence is linked to the ability to suffer and that because animals have smaller brains they suffer less than humans. That is a pathetic piece of logic.”

Behavioural scientist Keith Kendrick at the Babraham Institute in Cambridge, concluded during his trials: "Any animal, including humans, once they are scared, tend not to show signs of intelligent behaviour."

This could explain your irrational behaviour so what is it that scares you in your dark and fetid world Yabby? A reduction in profits?