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The Forum > General Discussion > Why fur is never cool

Why fur is never cool

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While the world has been glued to the Beijing Olympics, the following is an extract of a report in Worldnet Daily on August 19:-

"According to Mark Rissi, a spokesman for Swiss Animal Protection, which has documented abuse of animals raised for their fur as early as 1983, the China project has been going on for several years.

"The report contained the testimony from witnesses to a dog slaughter:

"Once pulled out from its cage, the raccoon dog curls up into a ball in mid-air. One woman in a headscarf is first to grab hold of the raccoon dog's tail ... The woman in the headscarf swings the animal upwards. It forms an arc in the air and is then slammed heavily to the ground, throwing up a cloud of dust. The raccoon dog tries to stand up, its paws scrabbling in the grit. The wooden club in the woman's hand swings down onto its forehead. The woman picks up the animal and walks toward the other side of the road, throwing it onto a pile of other raccoon dogs. A stream of blood trickles from its muzzle, but its eyes are open and it continues to repeatedly blink, move its paws, raise its head and collapse to the ground. Beside it lies another raccoon dog. Its four limbs have been hacked off but still it continues to yelp.

"The report then graphically describes how the dogs are skinned, sometimes while they are living".

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=72879

Tens of thousands of rabbits, cats, and dogs meet this fate in China. Please consider anything you buy that contains fur or fur trim, including "souvenirs". There are no truth in labelling" laws in China, so even if it says "faux", beware of what you choose to buy.

Australia has a ban on the importation of dog and cat fur, but lack of truthful labelling means that the only way of enforcing this is by DNA testing of countless Chinese products.
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 22 August 2008 7:59:27 PM
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Dear Nicky,

You've just confirmed what I've suspected
for a while. There's a Chemist near us that
sells "stuffed animal toys." Life-like
kittens, puppies, et cetera. All of them
covered with a soft fur material. I asked
the staff what the fur was, and they told
me the toys were from China and it was "faux."
"But it feels like the real thing," I said.

Now I know better.
It was the real thing.

Why isn't there a ban on these products?
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 22 August 2008 8:56:39 PM
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Hey Foxy

Because there are no "truth in labelling" laws in China, and the Chinese are aware that this material is "out there", they will label stuff like that as "faux". Dog and cat fur is sometimes given exotic names like Arctic Wolf in the case of fur coats, when it may be dog, cat, fox, mink, raccoon, etc etc. They also eat the dog and cat meat, of course. I know someone who witnessed rabbits being skinned alive in China.

To ascertain what the souvenirs that you see almost everywhere actually are, they would have to be DNA tested - and there are millions of them.

I don't believe that one animal is more special than another. The Swiss Animal Protection group which carried out this investigation has on its website the names of designers who use fur (95% of which comes from China). There are, believe it or not, three fur farms in Ireland too - and the animals there are gassed or anally electrocuted. Any animal used in the fur trade is raised in unspeakable conditions. I think PETA's "Fur is Dead" website may have information on the designers who use fur are too. Some of them also make perfume and other things which can be easily boycotted.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 22 August 2008 10:59:13 PM
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Nicky

Thanks for the thread and all the good work you do in raising awareness about animal cruelty.

It seems we should have been using the Olympics to highlight the abuse of animal rights in China, as well as human rights.
Posted by Bronwyn, Saturday, 23 August 2008 12:12:27 AM
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WOAH.. hang on.. this story came from that 'Right Wing' rag "WorldNetDaily" which also reports on a lot of other material such as the persecution of Christians.. well.. how can we possibly believe such silly stories eh .......?

or..perhaps they actually do care, and present truth which, while unpalatable to many, is still real and I wonder how many of us are prepared to 'take up verbal arms' against the other things they report on where the HUMANS are the ones being slammed into the ground and who knows.. maybe skinned? or.. body organs harvested. (Kosovo Albanians kidnapped 1000s of Serbs and harvested their body parts according to John Pilger!)

Yes... let's be outraged over animal cruelty..

Yes... let's do our bit and refrain from purchasing/supporting such industries..

Yes... let's also recognize future threats to our safety, security and identity, freedom of faith etc while they are in embryonic form.
Some people just wring their hands.. I actually do things.
Posted by Polycarp, Saturday, 23 August 2008 8:24:24 AM
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Thanks Nicky for starting this discussion.

One method to check if fur is faux.

Part the fur, real fur has a fine underlayer, whereas fake fur doesn't. Familiarise yourself by checking the fur on your dog or cat.

http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RSPCA/RSPCARedirect&pg=fur&marker=1&articleId=1169629019054

"Be 100 per cent sure that it's fake.
You can sometimes tell the difference between real and fake fur by gently separating the hairs going down to the base of the hair. If you can see skin or leather between the hairs at the base the item is real. If you can see a weave or material at base of the hairs the fur is fake.

Most importantly, dont unwittingly buy real fur by mistake. If you are not 100 per cent certain that it is faux - DON'T BUY IT!"
Posted by Fractelle, Saturday, 23 August 2008 9:05:01 AM
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Dear Nicky,

Thanks for answering my question.

And as Fractelle said, if you're
unsure whether it's real fur or
fake, "Don't buy it."

I certainly won't.

Dear Polycarp,

I don't think anyone is seriously
criticizing you for raising
human rights issues. Where people
draw the line however, is when
you continually keep picking on
one particular group. Perhaps it is
unintentional on your part, only you
know in your heart whether this is true,
but its the way it is perceived on this Forum.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 23 August 2008 11:01:17 AM
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BD/PC

"Yes... let's also recognize future threats to our safety, security and identity, freedom of faith etc while they are in embryonic form. Some people just wring their hands.. I actually do things."

Gee, you're a saint, BD. The world needs more of your kind.

Where have I been going wrong? Perhaps I haven't been spending enough time on bible study and church attendance. Is that what you mean by 'doing things'?

By the way, this thread is about animal cruelty and, while I actually agree with some of your comments here and I'm sure the others do too, we are all tired, as Foxy has just pointed out, of the way you highjack every discussion to push your own pet hates. Besides, anyone who hates Muslims the way you do has little credibility in any human rights discussion.

One improvement I have noticed with your new reincarnation though is that we're not being earbashed with bible quotes quite so regularly. That is very welcome. Keep it up.

Yes, it's good to 'actually do things', but hopefully that involves cleaning out your own backyard first. Besides which, I've seen you do plenty of 'hand-wringing' on OLO.
Posted by Bronwyn, Saturday, 23 August 2008 11:28:58 AM
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One simple way to avoid being duped is to buy 'Australian Made' products whenever possible. Make sure you take your reading glasses when buying and if not 'Australian Made' ask yourself if you really want it. I know it is getting more difficult but we should try for many reasons.

No problem in buying Red Fox or Kangaroo skin products if made here.
Posted by Banjo, Saturday, 23 August 2008 1:26:44 PM
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Hi all

Thanks so much for your responses, and in particular the tip of recognizing "faux" from real fur.

I'd like to make my position clear about one thing, I think. Human rights and animal rights/welfare are not mutually exclusive. It is not necessarily an "either/or", most people involved in animal welfare/animal rights also care deeply about other social justice issues.

I'm not really familiar with Polycarp's views, so can't comment there.

It would be interesting to know just what percentage of "Australian" souvenirs, like toy koalas, kangaroos, etc are actually made in China - it's most of them, from what I've seen around the shops.

Banjo, on the basis that we presume that animals killed whose fur is used in Australia are killed reasonably humanely; certainly I cannot imagine such sickening atrocities happening here (without prosecution). I would encourage people who are sympathetic about this to visit relevant anti-fur websites and find out who the designers are who use fur too - often it is the big names who make other products like perfumes, and cosmetics, for instance. If people are interested I will look them up and post them here. I know that Jennifer Lopez, for example, uses a lot of fur (Chinese) in her clothings designs.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 23 August 2008 7:29:04 PM
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Wait until 9 billion people get a hold of this planet, you don't really think there's still going to be wildlife, do ya! Since today's extinction rate is well under way, we might as well be farming them and get into harvesting the little dears while the going is good.

Animals parts are again big business
and it winds up to same conclusions I have said before!

Control the people, save the world.

Its only a matter of time before the human race eats this planet alive.

Nicky! I do envy your passion for the defenceless, but as we grow, money and greed will eventually win.
Its human nature iam afraid.

EVO
Posted by EVO, Saturday, 23 August 2008 7:45:53 PM
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Dear Nicky,

I for one would be interested in the names of
designers who use fur (fake or real).

It would be great if you could post a list here.

Thanks for offering.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 23 August 2008 9:57:10 PM
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Ditto to Foxy's words! And many thanks, Nicky.
Posted by Bronwyn, Saturday, 23 August 2008 11:20:15 PM
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Hi all
Here is a list from this website:
http://www.nycanimalrights.com/Designers%20That%20Use%20Fur.htm

I've only listed the more common ones that we see in Australia; the list there is much more exhaustive and contains some background as well.

Anna Sui
Anne Klein
Bally
Balenciaga
Bill Blass
Burberry
Cacherel
Calvin Klein (I did think I read CK had gone fur free somewhere though)
Caroline Hererra
Chanel/Karl Lagerfeld
Christian Dior
Christian Lacroix
Dolce and Gabbana
Donna Karan
Fendi
Georgio Armani
John Paul Gaultier
Givenchy
Gucci
Guy Laroche
Hermes
Herve Leger
Issy Mayake
Lanvin
Louis Feraud
Louis Vuitton
Marc Jacobs
Moschino
Nina Ricci
Oscar de la Renta
Paco Rabanne
Pellegrino
Pierre Balmain
Prada
Pucci
Ralph Lauren (FUR FREE!)
Rochas
Tommy Hilfiger
Trussardi
Valentino
Vera Wang
Versace
Yves Saint Laurent

If you like perfumes or any other products of these companies, perhaps you can find an alternative, and tell your supplier why.

EVO, saying that humans are going to eliminate all wildlife from the planet and that's okay; why not use them really doesn't cut it in the face of such atrocious cruelty, I'm afraid., There can never, EVER, be an excuse for this.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 23 August 2008 11:37:44 PM
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Hi Foxy and Bronwyn

Thanks for your kind words. Further to the list posted, Tommy Hilfiger has since joined Calvin Klein and Ralph Lauren in going fur free.

Stella Cartney, Marc Bouwer, Betsey Johnson, Vivienne Westwood, Comme des Garçons, Limited Brands, J.Crew, Ann Taylor, and Jones Apparel Group are among the numerous other designers and fashion companies that have fur-free policies. Italian fashion leader Prada featured no real fur in its autumn/winter collection for the first time in years. This marks a complete turnaround from last year's collection, which was heavy on fox and other pelts.

Slow, but ongoing enlightenment.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 23 August 2008 11:55:40 PM
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Polycarp, said

Yes... let's be outraged over animal cruelty..

Yes... let's do our bit and refrain from purchasing/supporting such industries..

Yes... let's also recognize future threats to our safety, security and identity, freedom of faith etc while they are in embryonic form.
Some people just wring their hands.. I actually do things.

Hello everybody

Good time to raise this thread Nicky.

Polycarp,

I was just wondering what you meant by you actually do things?
I am not having a go at you just interested.

I think that as a general there is far too little attention by Governments world wide on Animal cruelty.
I am not saying that people are not important. I am saying if we do not treat our animals kindly then there is no hope that we will treat people kindly either.

Animals are more at risk of abuse because they can not speak for themselves. Lets face it nobody could argue that the facts raised by Nicky are not sickening and we should all be protesting about it.

Sometimes in my work I have people counter attack me by saying "Ah why are you only helping animals and not people."

I often ponder over this and think to myself I wonder why people see the suffering of innocent creatures as less importance than us.'

Because there are so many organisations working to help people I chose to help animals who have far less support.

I dont know why that seems to upset some.

Does it you? Or have I read your wrong. Or is it just that your frustration of seeing people ill treated spill over at times like ours does seeing so much horric acts of Animal cruelty.

See I have the same attitude towards Church leaders and many of their followers preaching the gospel but mostly ignoring Animal cruelty.
I get so angry its hard to contain.

So perhaps we share a attitude in common driven by deep compassion and love for others.
Anyway be nice to hear how you think we could help Nicky and the Animals perhaps as well as China
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 24 August 2008 7:03:58 AM
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Dear Nicky,

Thanks so much for the list.

I was relieved to see that Prada has finally
become fur-free. I love their glasses collections,
and have indulged myself in this area in the past,
but I certainly wouldn't support them if they
were into fur.

I've earmarked the list, and now will look elsewhere,
especially for perfumes (Givency et al).

I'm glad that Carla Zampati isn't on the list.
She's a favourite of mine (for special occasions).

So, once again -Thanks for the list, and for
doing the good work on behalf of all creatures -
big and small.

All The Best,
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 24 August 2008 9:54:30 AM
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Hi Nicky

I also echo a big thank you for your endeavours towards enlightening the public over these atrocities.

In addition, I have provided a few extra names to your list of fur free fashion designers (provided by the Humane Society) and offer my apologies for the duplications:

http://www.hsi.org.au/protection_animals/FurFreeFashionDesigners.htm
Posted by dickie, Sunday, 24 August 2008 11:13:38 AM
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Ok girls, well just stick to the Ugg boots. Its either that or
the skins get thrown on the tip and are buried.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 24 August 2008 2:25:56 PM
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Fur is bad in today's generations - because its too cumbersome, and we have better methods to replace it. But 5000 years ago, good and bad were not relevent. This has nothing to do with animal rights laws, which are of course sacred. China's poor moral/ethical ways are exposed by its animal rights abuse - pointing to how it deals with human beings. All animal rights laws come from the OT, including:

FEED YOUR ANIMAL BEFORE YOURSELF [BECAUSE A CAPTURED ANIMAL IS TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON ITS OWNER].

DO NOT OVERLOAD A DONKEY [AND THUS ANY OTHER ANIMAL]

ASSIST AN OVER-LOADED ANIMAL EVEN IF IT BELONGS TO YOUR ENEMY [THUS WE SEE ANIMAL RIGHTS ADVOCATES COMPELLED TO ATTACK ABUSERS OF ANIMAL RIGHTS]

DO NOT LEAVE A HOLE IN THE GROUND IN AN ANIMAL'S VICINITY [THIS CALLS FOR GOOD ENVIRONEMNT AND PROTECTION FOR ANIMALS, EVEN DURING SLAUGHTERING TRANSPORTATION]

DO NOT TAKE THE MOTHER AND OFFSPRING TOGETHER [THIS IS AGAINST ANIMAL CRUELTY]

DO NOT LOCK AN ANIMAL'S MOUTH WHEN IT IS NEAR FOOD [AN ANIMAL'S REQUIREMENT AND INSTINCT TO EAT IS GREATER THAN MAN'S]

DO NOT CONSUME THE PARTS OF, OR A LIVING ANIMAL [EATING LIVE WORMS IS A VIOLATION OF THIS LAW].

DO NOT CONSUME THE BLOOD [THIS IS A HEALTH PROTECTION LAW]

Etc, etc. One who follows animal rights laws, are even better than Vegetarians.
Posted by IamJoseph, Sunday, 24 August 2008 4:16:34 PM
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Hi everyone, and thank you all.

Dickie, especially thanks to you for your more Australian content, Note that Lisa Ho is NOT included as fur free.

Just in case that wasn't enough to warrant a boycott of China, the following are extracts from the article at the url at the end:

"The smiling children giggled as they patted the young goat on its head and tickled it behind the ears.

"Some of the more boisterous ones tried to clamber onto the animal's back but were soon shaken off with a quick wiggle of its bottom.

"It could have been a happy scene from a family zoo anywhere in the world but for what happened next.

"A man hoisted up the goat and nonchalantly threw it over a wall into a pit full of hungry lions. The poor goat tried to run for its life, but it didn't stand a chance. The lions quickly surrounded it and started tearing at its flesh.

"Oohs" and "aahs" filled the air as the children watched the goat being ripped limb from limb. Some started to clap silently with a look of wonder in their eyes

"The scenes witnessed at Badaltearing Safari Park in China are rapidly becoming a normal day out for many Chinese families.

"Baying crowds now gather in zoos across the country to watch animals being torn to pieces by lions and tigers..."

Continued...
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 24 August 2008 5:47:40 PM
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(Continued)

Just an hour's drive from the main Olympic attractions in Beijing, Badaling is in many ways a typical Chinese zoo.

Next to the main slaughter arena is a restaurant where families can dine on braised dog while watching cows and goats being disembowelled by lions.

The zoo also encourages visitors to "fish" for lions using live chickens as bait. For just £2, giggling visitors tie terrified chickens onto bamboo rods and dangle them in front of the lions.

But the cruelty of Badaling doesn't stop there. For those who can still stomach it, the zoo has numerous traumatised animals. A pair of endangered moon bears with rusting steel nose rings are chained up in cages so small that they cannot move.

"One has clearly gone mad and spends most of its time shaking its head and bashing into the walls of its prison.

Tortoise baiting
"Legend has it that if you hit a tortoise on the head with a coin and make a wish, then your heart's desire will come true.

"To feed this craze, tortoises are kept in barbaric conditions inside small bare rooms.

"When giggling tourists hurl coins at them, they desperately try to protect themselves by withdrawing into their shells.

"But Chinese zoo keepers have fixed this: they wrap elastic bands around the animals' necks to stop them retracting their heads..."

"Even worse is in store for the animals of Xiongsen Bear and Tiger Mountain Village near Guilin in south-east China.

"Here, live cows are fed to tigers to amuse cheering crowds... I watched in horror as a young cow was stalked and caught. Its screams filled the air as it struggled to escape.

"A wild tiger would dispatch its prey within moments, but these beasts' natural killing skills have been blunted by years of living in tiny cages.

"The tiger tried to kill by tearing and biting at the cow's body in a pathetic looking frenzy, but it simply didn't know how.

"Eventually, the keepers broke up the contest and slaughtered the cow themselves, much to the disappointment of the crowd...."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506153/Animals-torn-pieces-lions-baying-crowds-spectator-sport-China-DOESNT-want-see.html
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 24 August 2008 8:17:15 PM
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Can someone give yabbous, a little more of the balance world! PLEASE!

I swear too god?, I am the only person here..Nicky! You keep up the good work! We will all save this planet, somehow. I am starting to think there is hope in reality.

EVO
Posted by EVO, Sunday, 24 August 2008 11:47:45 PM
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Thank you Nicky for this most needed thread to raise awareness.
Sometimes life can be hectic and we then have to be reminded to stop and be aware what goes on even if it’s not happening right in front of our eyes all the time.
In these times of information-overload we need to pick and choose carefully what is important to us and is worthy of our limited time.
As soon as I saw the title of your thread I knew that it was worth attention.

These terrible animal abuse stories really make me feel sick- just as I was about to wolf down the bowl of wriggling worms in front of me.
Thank you Joseph for making me realise that eating them is the wrong thing to do.

But seriously, great links, comments and advice, everyone.
PolyCarp, there are many people with a big enough heart to be concerned about both human and animal suffering issues.

Australia may not realise that Italy has been importing dog fur from China for many years- so watch the boots, too.

Anyone know whether there’s a recent anti fur petition that we could sign?
This person did a good anti-fur video on YouTube; s/he hasn’t had many views yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRtQ0bZ5Ko
Posted by Celivia, Monday, 25 August 2008 9:45:57 PM
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Sorry I accidentally cut off the last number of the link I gave, here's the correct one- I hope.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRtQ0bZ5Ko8
Posted by Celivia, Tuesday, 26 August 2008 1:16:05 PM
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Hi all, and welcome, Celivia.

There was a petition which I signed, I'll try and find it again and post it here. EVO, the word "balance" is not in Yabby's (rather limited) vocabulary, as you may have noticed. If anyone expresses a view about animal welfare, he goes into auto-pilot and expresses the opposite view as a matter of course.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 26 August 2008 6:55:10 PM
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* he goes into auto-pilot and expresses the opposite view as a matter of course.*

Nicky dear, with you that is probably the case, for I bring a balance
to your "unbalanced" views. So what do you have against ugg boots?
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 26 August 2008 7:29:15 PM
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Yabby, nothing at all as long as they are made of polar fleece (i.e. "fake" and not sheepskin), although I tend to feel that encouraging a culture of even "faux" fur tends to encourage this atrocious and completely unnecessary industry.

As for your "balance"; perhaps you should look up the term in this context in a dictionary.

I take it that you think that the Chinese treatment of animals is perfectly acceptable?

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 26 August 2008 8:16:15 PM
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*i.e. "fake" and not sheepskin*

Err, Ugg boots are made of sheep skin. Fake ones perhaps of fake
sheep skin. What is wrong with sheep skin Ugg boots?

Where did I say that I think that I agree with the Chinese
treatment that you mention? Don't put words in my mouth dear.

Nope, your views are not balanced, but extremist. Even your family
eat meat. Admit it, you are obsessed.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 26 August 2008 8:45:53 PM
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I don’t have more problems with sheepskin than with meat. Isn’t sheepskin just a byproduct of the meat industry? If these by products are not used they have to be disposed of, so why not use them?

However, even as a moderate meat consumer, I do have a big problem with factory-farmed meat and hide/fur that comes from abused animals- animals kept in tiny cages and then cruelly killed for no other reason than people’s nauseating cruelty and horrendous greed.
Bashing seals to death still goes on in Canada, it’s so horrible that I try not to think about it.
Posted by Celivia, Tuesday, 26 August 2008 10:16:09 PM
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My wife has a pair of ugg boots, and each time I walk by them, I cant help but thinking that the sheep was quite happy doing what it was doing, until a bolt gun smashed a hole through its head. I think that's what bothers me about the whole wearing of them.

A friend of mine invited me to take a look where he worked, and as i was viewing the stock in the yard, and they seemed happy at the time, but when the machines started up, you could see the change of fear in all of them. Inside the slaughterhouse, I saw workers kick and sometimes punching the animals if they didn't corporate.

So in seeing the reality to where it comes down to the final product,
No thanks. Id rather have cold feet.

Again! To see something with your own see,s, soon changes your perspectives on the matter.

Its like a lot of fast food out-lets!

If you saw how it was made, you wouldn't eat it.
A lot of ignorances comes from the fact, if you don't see it, then its alright.

I think more people should get out in the world!

But that's just my opinion.

EV
Posted by EVO, Thursday, 28 August 2008 11:07:04 PM
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Hi all

EVO, how right you are. Linda McCartney said once that if slaughterhouses had glass walls, the whole world would be vegetarian. I have been told often that animals do have an awareness and real terror in slaughterhouses.

I see small lambs around at the moment, and when I translate that to the packaged "lamb necks" I see in supermarkets, the owners of those necks must have been very small indeed. I wonder if slaughterhouse workers just get completely desensitized about what they do (brutalized?)

And Yabby, I simply prefer not to wear/sit on/eat dead animals. Not a difficult concept and I manage to get through life quite comfortably.

I said I would find a Chinese fur petition:-

http://animalsaviors.org/petition.html

This one is a bit "dog and cat specific", so I'll try to find one that covers all animals. They suffer no less than dogs and cats.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 28 August 2008 11:50:40 PM
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*I cant help but thinking that the sheep was quite happy doing what it was doing*

It probably was, but alas reality prevails, there is only food for
so many. Too many and they starve to death, as in nature. Your
skin problably looks ok on you, but if a proverbial bus hits you,
the worms will recycle you, no different to a sheep.

Frankly I don't think a sheep really cares that much, as to how it
gets recycled. I guess we could simply let ants and worms eat dead
animals, clearly their populations would bloom! Nature prevails.

*No thanks. Id rather have cold feet.*

That is fine by me lol. Have all the cold feet that you want :)

*If you saw how it was made, you wouldn't eat it.*

Rubbish, you have simply been degenerated by city living and have
lost touch with nature. Moving to the country made me learn about
the realities of life, including birth and death, the cycle of
nature. Years ago, when people lived in villages, most butchered their
own meat. In the country, that is still the case. That includes
me.

*And Yabby, I simply prefer not to wear/sit on/eat dead animals.*

Yup, that is the extremist vegan position, ie the evils of leather.
That's why I call you an extremist.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 29 August 2008 6:11:49 PM
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Ugg boots are very popular where I live. It may have something to do with the fact that it gets very cold here in winter, and also that we have a ready supply of sheepskins from the local abattoir. I've always believed that if you're going to kill an animal, you should use every bit of it - and with sheep their skins are particularly useful with the fleece still on.

The only reason I don't wear ugg boots is that they're so bogan :)

However, I have an Akubra hat that was made from rabbit fur, not to mention numerous pairs of boots and shoes that were made from cow leather. And I have a brilliant waistcoat (made in NZ) that is tweed lined with sheepskin.

I agree that there should never be cruelty involved, but I think that it's excessive to demand that people don't use any kind of animal skin or fur. This is particularly the case in animals that have already been slaughtered for other reasons - e.g. for meat, as vermin or in culls.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 29 August 2008 7:58:31 PM
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Guys, I haven't demanded any such thing. I have simply stated my own preference. Yabby, on the other hand, seems to have no problem with pretty much any degree of cruelty (so long as there is a quid in it), trying to tell us that it is "nature". He doesn't seem to find anything remarkable in the content of this discussion, but simply wants to use the "extremist" argument as his usual matter of course.

It is not "nature" to keep lions and tigers in zoos and bait them with live animals, however, that is sick perversion. So is keeping bears in cages with metal catheters their gall bladdders for decades. And choppng off their paws, but keeping them alive, because someone fancies soup made from them. Or beating or blowtorching animals to death, or skinning them alive.

The Chinese are especially good at it.

Nicky.
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 29 August 2008 11:25:00 PM
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*Yabby, on the other hand, seems to have no problem with pretty much any degree of cruelty (so long as there is a quid in it),*

Ah Nicky, your constant attempt at strawman arguments, simply won't
work! But you keep trying.

I am simply not a woos or a sissy as you seem to have been, during
your childhood. Nowhere have I stated that live lambs should be
fed to baby lions either. I even wrote to the Chinese Embassy some
years ago about bear bile farming, but that is not the point at issue
here.

What I am saying is that you are extremist for knocking people
who wear ugg boots. The whole point about the ugg boots was to
draw out of you how far you had gone down the path of veganism
and now of course we all know! You might not be a card carrying
member of Peta, but you certainly preach their philosophy.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 29 August 2008 11:55:56 PM
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Yabby

"Yup, that is the extremist vegan position, ie the evils of leather.
That's why I call you an extremist."

I don't consider Nicky an extremist at all. Principled and committed to her beliefs? Yes. Extremist in her style or her views? No.

As Nicky herself pointed out, she is not preaching that we should follow her example, though she would of course wish more people would, she is just stating her personal preference.

Having said that, I enjoy the ongoing repartee between you and Nicky, and Dickie too, when she's around. I actually see good sense in some of what you say, Yabby, but in my humble opinion, the girls are winning this never-ending verbal stoush hands down!
Posted by Bronwyn, Saturday, 30 August 2008 12:42:42 AM
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Ah Bromwyn, you just stick up for the sisters. They need all the
help that they can get :)

I see Nicky a bit like I see the Opus Dei Catholics. They are
at the extreme end of their religion. Upfront they promote their
philosophies, but as you dig deeper, they are into self whipping and
other weird beliefs.

With Nicky, we have a similar situation, which we are dragging out
bit by bit. Animal welfare is one issue, animal liberation as per
Peta is far more extreme and that is clearly her philosophy.

The Peta founder and leader is of course just as extreme, ready to
barbecue her own meat when she dies. Nearly as kinky as those
Opus Dei Catholics!

People have been raising livestock for thousands of years and one
species eating another is in fact part of nature. To now deny
nature is certainly extreme, all very much "tippytoe through the
tulips" feelgood stuff, but totally unrealistic, in a very real world.

I have no problem with Nicky living and doing as she pleases. I do
have a problem with her trying to close down WA livestock industries
by denying WA farmers global markets.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 30 August 2008 11:26:59 AM
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Yabby. Have you ever thought about putting your self in Nickie's shoes! I think you will find a good heart there. If our opinions comes from experiences, how can one ever understand the other. I see two worlds colliding, with one not knowing the other.

Have a look and try the vegetarian side of things before you judge.

Your right about city living,(on quite a few levels). Just go down to Sydney and buy a kebab.lol I have also worked in the food industry. Now that's an eye opener!

We all change, when we see.

EVO
Posted by EVO, Saturday, 30 August 2008 12:25:47 PM
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*I think you will find a good heart there. If our opinions comes from experiences,*

Evo, of course Nicky had a good heart! In a way you make my point
for me, for I have encouraged Nicky to pack away her papers, buy
herself a swag and go and experience life in the country, which
she clearly does not understand. No wonder that she makes so
many false assumptions. I have experienced both sides of living,
so see things from both sides.

Every time I put some lambs or ewes on a truck, I feel a bit sad that
they have to go. But I also accept reality, I do not deny it.

Its very easy to preach about a "feelgood" world. People like
Dickie, prefer to switch off their TVs, when David Attenborough
shows them what is going on in the real world. Hey presto, push
the button and reality is gone! How very simple, just deny reality,
its easier then dealing with it.

Every day on my farm, I see some sadness. A ewe might have lost
her lamb, a lamb born with some genetic flaw, ripped to bits by
a fox or pecked to death by crows. OTOH I also see huge amounts
of animals enjoying their lives, sitting in the sun, chewing the
cud, doing what ewes and lambs do, playing little games running
around the dams, whatever. One ewe that I was particularly concerned
about last week, finally had her twins just yesterday. Its a joy
to watch it all! Perhaps that is why I do it, for this farm has
only ever just paid its bills for years.

For others to suggest that these animals should never have had a life
in the first place, because they might be concerned about how they
are recycled after death, is plain nonsense to me.

IMHO Nicky has simply adopted this as her cause and purpose in life.
Clearly she is nervous about a bit of pain, so perhaps that is why
she never had a kid or two, to give her purpose, as with other
mothers
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 30 August 2008 1:58:12 PM
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Yabby

"I have experienced both sides of living, so see things from both sides."

With respect, no, you don't Yabby. I've read enough of your posts to know you are totally intractable when it comes to animal welfare issues.

I know you've experienced country and city living. So have I. I grew up on a farm and relate easily to your descriptions of farm life, which I must admit do exhibit a certain amount of genuine pride and interest in the welfare of your own animals.

You are still very blinkered though when it comes to animal welfare issues on a broader scale. Live export, in particular, which you defend without concession, is totally cruel and unnecessary. There's nothing but sheer unadulterated greed that could justify shipping animals around the world. When we bring food miles into the equation, it is quite outrageous that this trade continues unabated. I can live with the breeding of animals for domestic markets if they are raised, transported and killed humanely, but as I am beginning to learn from the likes of Nicky and others, this is often not the reality.

We need committed people like Nicky to act as a beacon to the rest of us. If it wasn't for their awareness raising on issues like battery hens and mulesing, for example, most of us would never realise the cruelty inflicted on animals in order for us to lead the lifestyles we do.

As pointed out by EVO, it's time you started making some concessions, Yabby! We don't need a complete capitulation but a bridge here and there with your long-time adversaries wouldn't hurt all that much, would it?
Posted by Bronwyn, Saturday, 30 August 2008 3:19:53 PM
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" animals do have an awareness "

They certainly do have awareness. Yet I suspect their awareness and consciousness modes are different from humans. They do not seem to mourn for long, and appear to accept their predicament in the wild as inevitable and momentary. The animal world seems to be very practical and accept the world as it is, unlike humans. An animal will defend its young, but not with its life - when it realises the odds are against it - it will allow its young to be taken and continue whatever it was doing with no remorse.

The reaction of humans to such a premise appears, because we see it from our own views. There is also no choice factor for the animals: a cow is not good because it is a vegetarian, nor a lion bad because it eats meat. In a sense, this makes human reaction quite irrelevent, and we most probably turn to vegetarianiasm to soothe our own sense of morals. It is irrevent because we cannot change the nature of the world no matter what measures we adopt. The animal world will not hesitate to consume humans, given the chance - and this is the destiny of all of us: we end up as fodder for the subterranean world, then grass for the cows we eat.

An experiment shows the animal world's practical morals:

A monkey and her child were put in an ampty pond, which was slowly filled with water. The monkey kept protecting its child, as the water level raised, holding the child above it. When the water level reached the nose of the mother monkey, she put the child under her feet and stood over it - to protect her own life and abandone the child.

Kindness to animals are not associated with not eating meat. Observing animal rights laws, while eating meat, is a far greater merit. The animals accept they will be eaten, and wish only to have a decent life until their number is up - and they go to the chopping block with no protest.
Posted by IamJoseph, Saturday, 30 August 2008 3:44:14 PM
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Yabby, I totally agree with Nicky and Bronwyn here.

You said, "I also accept reality, I do not deny it."
Well, I think you DO deny reality.
The reality is that live exports are very cruel. It's the sheep's reality that you have to look at.

Nicky is not denying reality, she is aware of it and therefore wants to help change it in favour of the animals.
And there is nothing wrong with being committed to changing a reality that you don't like.

It's not about denial it's about acceptance of a reality.

Even though I don't always agree with what Nicky says, I respect her choices (e.g. to not wear ugg boots) and I have not found her disrespectful of my choices (to eat free range meat and eggs and sit on a leather sofa).
There is a difference between lecturing people and educating them. I feel that Nicky does the latter.

People should simply breed and raise animals locally, not transport them over too long distances to the other end of the world just to be taken to an abattoir at the end of a long journey.
Posted by Celivia, Saturday, 30 August 2008 3:51:21 PM
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"The reality is that live exports are very cruel. It's the sheep's reality that you have to look at."

I too agree. This form of export of animals is in violation of animal rights laws, which are varied from vegetarianism. Reasonable, clean and safe environement for animals is the onus of the owner.

'NOT TO LEAVE A HOLE IN THE GROUND IN AN ANIMAL'S VICINITY' refers to a safe environment for animals outside their natural habitat. Many animals die during transport - paving the way for another violation, that of consuming a dead animal, resulting in dangerous effects for humans. The animal must be respected even during slaughtering.
Posted by IamJoseph, Saturday, 30 August 2008 4:34:12 PM
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What I like about fur is the way my girlfriend looks, sprawled naked across it.

The sensuous and sensual experience is quite unique.

Fur is good

It is best when it is appreciated

And I do so much appreciate it.

But you are right, fur is never cool….

It is hot, hot, hot. . . .
Posted by Col Rouge, Saturday, 30 August 2008 5:48:17 PM
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Oh no, too much information!

'coz now I’m stuck with an image of Col having his way with Grevilla de Vil on a fur rug at Hell Hall.
Posted by Celivia, Saturday, 30 August 2008 7:22:52 PM
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Cruella de Vil, that is.
Posted by Celivia, Saturday, 30 August 2008 7:31:22 PM
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Hi all

Bronwyn, Celivia and IamJoseph, thank you for your comments. Yabby is always keen to stereotype anyone who is against long distance transport of animals, and other cruelties which are practiced upon "farmed" animals is "extremist" because it suits his purpose. Such practices would never be tolerated upon "companion" animals. An example is a current case in the Northern Territory - 1400 wild goats were transported from NSW to Darwin without food or water for 65 hours. 330 died as a result of the trauma and distress. How much of this do we just not hear about?

Various members of my family, friends and colleagues eat meat, wear wool and leather, and have leather sofas; I simply choose not to do so myself. I also choose not to buy products made in China and Korea where that is discernible and make conscious decisions about products which have been tested on animals. I simply make choices according to my own conscience. I choose not to watch animals being ripped apart by other animals on documentaries, in the knowledge that these animals are not deliberately cruel as is the human species. Sure, it is "nature", but I wonder at the sort of people want to watch it ad nauseum.

I have no idea what an "Opus Dei Catholic" is, so I can only assume that I am not one. Self-flagellation doesn't do it for me, I'm afraid, Yabby. I do, however, find Yabby's comment about my choices about not having children offensive and presumptuous in the extreme - but not unusual, because insulting is his debating style, along with throwing in "red herrings" such as religion. Having said that, I don't doubt that he believes that he treats his animals well (after he has mulesed them (if they are that type of sheep), castrated them, and seen them off on transport to who knows where or to slaughter).

Col Rouge, I have no alternative but to treat your post with the contempt it so deserves. I see nothing humorous in the way animals are brutalized for their fur in China.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 30 August 2008 7:39:42 PM
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*you are totally intractable when it comes to animal welfare issues.*

Nope, I discuss them with qualified people, who understand
the livestock that they are dealing with. Nicky is a fanatic, she knows
nothing about sheep. She does not know cruelty when she sees it,
as the evidence on here shows.

*Live export, is totally cruel and unnecessary.*

If that is your belief, then at least be consistent. Call for the
global banning of all feedlots, for a live ship is nothing but
a floating feedlot. 4-12 days on a boat, gaining weight, it not
an issue.

*If it wasn't for their awareness raising on issues like battery hens and mulesing,*

Has it ever occured to you that farmers don't mules for fun, but
to avoid animals suffering? Have you ever watched mulesing being
performed and studied how lambs react? Have you noted how many
farmers are now using Trisolfen, now that it is available?
Are you perhaps out of your depth, discussing this one?

*It's the sheep's reality that you have to look at.*

That is exactly what I look at. How much do you know about sheep?

*It's not about denial it's about acceptance of a reality.*

Of course its about denial, for her own beliefs contradict her
recited 5 freedoms. Its all emotion, lack of understanding and
lack of reason. If Nicky has led such a protected lifestyle that she
has never lost a bit of skin in her life, or felt a bit of pain,
then Nicky missed out on a normal, healthy childhood :)

Sorry, but normal farm kids don't live in cotton wool, nor do
animals in the wild or on farms.

Looks like I'll run out of posts on this one...
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 30 August 2008 9:06:04 PM
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Yabby

"Are you perhaps out of your depth, discussing this one?"

No I am not, thank you, Yabby. I wasn't even attempting to 'discuss' the issue, anyway. I merely mentioned it as an example of a practice that the average man in the street wouldn't have been aware of, if it hadn't been for animal rights activists raising its profile.

"Have you noted how many farmers are now using Trisolfen, now that it is available?"

The only reason the Australian wool industry even considered alternatives to mulesing is because it was facing boycotts from lucrative overseas markets. If its hip pocket nerve hadn't been pinched by the consciences of its buyers, you can bet nothing at all would have changed.

You are certainly back to your cantankerous old self with that last post, Yabby. Sometimes you show glimpses of having a real heart, but then the shadows roll in and it's all insults and put-downs again. I certainly won't be prodding the old beast again. You can wallow in your own negativity without disturbance from me in future.

By the way, it's posting courtesy to preface other posters' quotes with their names, not that courtesy is something you waste your time over, I realise that.
Posted by Bronwyn, Saturday, 30 August 2008 10:01:36 PM
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Bronwyn is right when she points out that mulesing practices are being amended in direct response to the activities of activists like PETA.

Yabby is also right when he says that nobody likes having to mules their sheep. I vividly recall having to assist in the procedure while employed as a farmhand in the 1970s - coincidentally not too far from where he lives in the Katanning district of WA. If there had been a viable alternative back then, I have no doubt whatsoever that my boss would have taken it. He loved his sheep.

Where I live now, most sheep farmers in the district are similar. They go to extraordinary lengths to ensure that their sheep are protected during bad weather in winter, and bottle-feed orphaned lambs every year. One fairly hard-bitten old bloke had tears in his eyes recently when he described to me what wild dogs had done to some of his ewes and lambs.

Of all issues at OLO, anything to do with animal welfare seems to always inevitably descend into a slanging match between poor old Yabby and any number of the animal rights mob - who are invariably female and display various degrees of rationality.

I tend to agree with Yabby about half the time, but I have to give him full credit for sticking to his guns in the face of protracted adversity at OLO. Mostly, I find the animal welfare threads here boring and predictable, but I have to say that I admire Yabby's forbearance.

Mind you, I said that I only agree with him about half the time :)
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 30 August 2008 10:26:22 PM
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Sheesh CJ, thanks for that! 50% will do :)

Bronwyn, your rural roots clearly fell off some time ago.
Has it ever occured to you, how insulted many farmers would
feel, if they read the ignorant and arrogant posts of
Nicky, Dickie and now it seems, yourself?

I live and breathe this stuff every day, it surrounds me.
Country people are some of the most generous that I know.
Just today, another story about 1500 tonnes of seed grain,
donated by 230 farmers, for their fellow farmers in drought.
In times of fire, flood, etc, country people rally around to
help one another. Of course most of them care about their
livestock! There will always be exceptions, no different to
anywhere else.

They struggle not only with the elements, but against political
systems that are stacked against them, greedy meat processors
and many other challenges, to feed and clothe their families and
survive for another year. I feel the pain of those who are forced
to leave the industry, as the numbers don't stack up anymore,
no matter how hard they tried.

But you bunch of ignoramouses clearly know it all better. They must
all just be greedy, for selling sheep to the live trade. How
ignorant and arrogant of you!

I note that you ignored my question about consistent philosophy.
Perhaps you don't have one, perhaps its just more touchy, feely
stuff, as we are so used to.

How accurate and unbiased do you think that the information is,
coming from animal rights activists with a clear agenda ? Are
you so gullible as to believe it all without question?

Bronwyn, some of your posts are reasonable, but this last one was
typical of a now public servant, completely out of touch with
country life and country people.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 31 August 2008 12:17:16 AM
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"Yabby is also right when he says that nobody likes having to mules their sheep." (CJ Morgan)

Balderdash! Mulesing is a mere "bagatel" for sheep farmers. Let's be frank here. Some twenty million Merinos are mulesed each year. Mulesing has been performed since the '30s. Farmers have never objected to these heinous practices. Farmers have never lobbied governments for assistance in seeking more humane alternatives to these procedures.

Eminent researchers from the '80s found that lambs mutilated from these procedures, avoided the "skilled" operators for 37 days. This research was a waste of taxpayers' funds for farmers preferred the status quo.

Tail docking and castrations are performed on sheep at the same time as mulesing. All these procedures have been kept from the public eye. This industry appears sufficiently naive in believing that these other inhumane treatments will not be an issue. Rest assured, they will be.

Cows'ovaries are hacked off (blind) but Yabby insists that cows "hardly flinch" during this procedure. Well they are incarcerated in a steel crush but witnesses have vouched that the bellowing is pitiful and distressing.

This industry has resorted to extraordinary lengths to portray animal welfare people as nutters? The truth is that wool and meat producers, driven by avarice, have resisted change, and state and federal governments are in their laps.

And our in-house Marquis de Sade, aka Yabby, is a fine example of the moral pygmies who run this club where all feast from the same poisoned tree:

"But you bunch of ignoramouses clearly know it all better. They must
all just be greedy, for selling sheep to the live trade. How
ignorant and arrogant of you!"

Indeed? And we know that you also send our sheep, goats and cattle to China too whilst operating under a system of deception, obfuscation and prostitution!

The blood is on your hands - not ours Yabby!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1_BOAF7qvk
Posted by dickie, Sunday, 31 August 2008 3:36:27 AM
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CJ - with all due respect maaate.

1. Live export is not necessary - far easier, economical AND environmentally efficient to slaughter here.

2. Many farmers do love their livestock and many try very hard and need all the support they can get to enable them to use humane farming practices. Like your support for example.

3. What does being 'female' have to do with the debate? As you suggesting that females are irrational?

4. What is rational about cruel treatment of animals? It is not 'manly' just sadistic.

5. There are humane ways to manage furs and hides as others have pointed out. Nothing 'irrational' about that - just good sense.

6. I have watched calves being neutered, while their mothers mooed and cried outside the fence - I know how much these animals care and feel.

7. While Yabby has every right to express his POV - there is no justification for using patronising insulting terms to others who disagree. I guess Yabby enjoys upsetting people. Therefore, his approach to debate is not at all rational, just trolling.

This patronising 'I am male, I know best' is a load of B/S. There are many men involved in animal welfare, who feel as passionately as Nicky. While I am no vegetarian, I do respect Nicky for her holding true to her values. And I do my best to purchase free-range produce.

There is much that can be done to produce a livestock industry that is humane, dismissing people as 'irrational' for speaking out about cruel practices, is, well, irrational.
Posted by Fractelle, Sunday, 31 August 2008 9:19:57 AM
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Fractelle - like I said, I only agree with Yabby about half the time. I don't support live exports, but neither do I support the vilification of farmers by animal rights extremists. Dickie's latest comment above is the sort of thing I'm talking about.

I agree that gender should have nothing to do with issues surrounding cruelty to animals, but it's also a fact that the endless arguments on OLO about animal welfare tend to be between various female animal rights activists and one or two male farmers. Not all the animal rights advocates present irrational arguments but any reasonable observer would have to conclude that some of the more prolific of them are well and truly beyond the pale (so to speak).

Why do you think that the debates about animal welfare issues on OLO are so obviously gendered? I ask that as a serious question.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 31 August 2008 9:49:28 AM
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"Why do you think that the debates about animal welfare issues on OLO are so obviously gendered? I ask that as a serious question."

Answer: DUNNO

Why are child welfare threads so obviously gendered as well?

For a start the regular posters at OLO are not representative of our society.

However, I do encounter more hostility towards women here than I do in my day to day life - thank goodness, or I'd never leave the house.

sides to the argument have worthy points, but it really gets my back up when Yabby assumes all animal welfare advocates to be both female and hysterical. Easy to resort to stereotyping when one has run out of cogent points to make.

Yabby often resorts to turning an issue into a gender war rather than providing evidence to support his farming practices. I admit that Yabby is far from the only poster on OLO who indulges himself in this way. As a female poster, I get fed up with the number of times I have to justify myself for my right to express an opinion before even getting to the point of my post.

On the other hand I do cringe with some of the badly worded and irrational posts when they are made by other women, because I know that much will be made of the assumed lack of logic rather than focusing on the truth in the opinion itself. A little more forethought from all posters would reduce the friction.

And the truth is this; livestock produce can and must be managed far more humanely than it is now. There is no justification for live export, I would like to see someone develop a practical alternative to mulesing and other practices where animals are (even for a brief time) harmed.

I would like to hear from farmers who actually practice humane treatment. I know they are out there, I talk to them at my local butchers.
Posted by Fractelle, Sunday, 31 August 2008 11:00:51 AM
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Much can be done to both farm efficiently and humanely:

http://9am.ten.com.au/compassionate-farming.htm

"Each year Australians consume an average of 137 eggs and 107 kilos of meat per person.

But it's not often that we stop to think where these products have come from. When you think of a farm, you might think of animals grazing in wide-open paddocks, sheepdogs, tractors and drovers on horseback, but...

Welfare Issues

Most of Australia's meat and eggs does not come from the traditional type of farm. Farming is big business, and in order to meet demand, intensive methods have been developed that promote high production levels for a lower cost and therefore, greater profits. Sadly, these profits often come at the cost of the animals' welfare.

Each year, many of Australia's farm animals suffer from inhumane treatment and cruelty that most people would consider unacceptable and would be outraged if it were a dog or a cat. Practices such as battery hen farming, and the use of sow stalls continues because they are not illegal.

The RSPCA believes that wherever humans use animals, they must be treated humanely, compassionately and with consideration. For farm animals in our care, we have a responsibility to provide for their basic needs, in accordance with the RSPCA's Five Freedoms. And if the animal is to be slaughtered, it should be done quickly and humanely.

RSPCA: The five freedoms for animals

1. Freedom from hunger and thirst.
2. Freedom from discomfort - appropriate environment/ shelter.
3. Freedom from pain, injury or disease
4. Freedom to express normal behaviour
5. Freedom from fear and distress."
Posted by Fractelle, Sunday, 31 August 2008 11:05:51 AM
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"What I like about fur is the way my girlfriend looks, sprawled naked across it.

The sensuous and sensual experience is quite unique."

While chomping on the animal's child too? I prefer an artifical fur - because it calls for more input.
Posted by IamJoseph, Sunday, 31 August 2008 11:30:57 AM
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Nicky “Col Rouge, I have no alternative but to treat your post with the contempt it so deserves. I see nothing humorous in the way animals are brutalized for their fur in China.”

Hey Nicky, don’t knock it ‘til you’ve tried it…..

Celivia “I’m stuck with an image of Col having his way with Grevilla de Vil on a fur rug at Hell Hall.”

Be happy for that image C… me in real life is so much worse : - )

IamJoseph “I prefer an artifical fur - because it calls for more input”

Appropriate, for someone who is so patently

“Artificial”

or maybe the attracting is the static electricity, from rubbing against the nylon

btw is your partner real or inflatable ?
Posted by Col Rouge, Sunday, 31 August 2008 1:14:46 PM
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Fractelle, of course I defend myself! Has it ever occured to you,
that the insults which NicknDick dish out to thousands of industry
professionals, academics, vets, farmers etc, claiming that they
have no integrity, whilst these two blabber on about subjects
for which they have no qualifications or experience apart from
being maternal, is not insulting to those many people?

So they get back what they dish out. At least Dickie can take it,
whilst Nicky seems to be a delicate petal, so quick to patronise
everybody else including the whole Middle East and its population,
yet so touchy when somebody points out the truth to her.

If Nicky insults people on the internet, she will get it back,
its as simple as that.

Farmers rely on the thousands of professionals employed by Govts,
to give them qualified advice, when it comes to various animal
procedures. Farmers do not run the Govt. Farmers do not manufacture
drugs which could be used. Farmers simply use the things made available
by the rest of society. It is in their interest that animals
do well and thrive.

I am not as arrogant as Dickie, to claim to know more then professional vets do,
when it comes to sterilising cattle. I will
leave it to those professionals to decide. All that Dickie has
so far shown is a heap of anthropomorphism and some empathy, with
absolutaly no understanding of the subject.

You say you don't know, why so many middle aged women are involved
in animal liberation. Why do so many women dress up their pet
doggies in clothes and jewelry? Could it be maternal instinct
kicking in here? To deny that women commonly have a maternal
instinct, would be to deny nature. So why should I do that?

Instinct does in fact affect human behaviour. The fact that many
of these women think that we should bemother our livestock, rather
then treat them as livestock, kind of makes my point. Sometimes
the truth hurts. So be it.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 31 August 2008 1:38:20 PM
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Hi all
CJ, I don't think it is an argument that is based in gender; for example in the farming journals you will see plenty of women supporting mulesing and castration (with no pain relief). Nor do I believe that all farmers are deliberately cruel. I certainly agree that without the intervention of PETA, nothing would be done about mulesing and pain relief though.

Nor is this about vilifying all farmers. I will, without hesitation, vilify farmers who are deliberately breeding animals for a live export trade which is egregiously cruel (and let's be clear here, 40,000+ animals die on the ships every year with the numbers rising, and that's BEFORE the survivors are brutalized in importing countries). Feedlots ARE an abomination in the context of the "Five Freedoms" as posted here by Fractelle, and they were determined by the Brambell Committee of the UK Farm Animal Welfare Council over a decade ago as the MINUMUM rights of ALL animals. We ensure (largely) than these needs are met in "companion" animals, but look at what we do to other animals simply because they are "food" animals.

Jonathan Balcombe, in "A Pleasurable Kingdom", along with many other scientists, writes that animals are conscious and capable of experiencing feelings, and basic emotions such as happiness, sadness, boredom and depression. And do we care about that, with farmed animals? Clearly not. Well done to those choosing free range.

Poor Yabby, of course, cannot get past gender insults in putting his case for the worst of the farmers. He has absolutely no way of knowing my qualifications or level of expertise in anything, so this is his only form of expression when he has nowhere to go.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 31 August 2008 2:08:31 PM
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Oops Nicky, you are getting older lol. You clearly have forgotten,
what you have written in previous posts! Political Science just
does not cut it, when it comes to livestock production or knowing
about the species concerned. We use qualified people for that,
not emotional amateurs.

Yes animals experience emotions, nobody is denying that. But seeing
the world through the eyes of a sheep, is quite different to the
eyes of a dog or a human. You need to understand the species and
their worldview, for that you need experience. Its taken me thirty
years to learn what I know and then I still learn something new
every day. I admit, some people don't bother to learn, even if
involved in the industry and some people like you have never learned,
as you have not worked in the field. Anthropomorphism just
does not cut it, I am afraid.

Yes, some sheep die on boats. As some sheep die in feedlots, as some
sheep die in paddocks, or in yards, or on trucks. There are all
sorts of reasons for that. Once again, only the ill informed are
horrified at a 1% death rate in a feedlot. Sheep have tiny brains
and when in good condition, a huge amount of muscle power.

I was weighing a few boisterous lambs (well around the 60kg mark)
just yesterday. Most walk in quietly, the odd one will charge
full-on, into solid steel. They can break their necks, do themselves
brain damage, etc. etc. All part of the sheep world, which you
don't understand and never will, until you go and gain some experience.

But then even the word "livestock" is a problem for you, even though
its in the dictionary and is used as part of our language. Extremism
of a fanatic, yet once again
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 31 August 2008 7:08:40 PM
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Yabby, I have said I am not debating the blindingly obvious any more with you. But what makes you think my only qualification is in political science? The term "livestock" lacks respect for the sentient beings we are talking about, thus I prefer the animals' proper names (species if you will). There is nothing extreme about that, it is simply a preference.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 31 August 2008 7:40:03 PM
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Hello Everyone.



Nice to see so many and especially pleased to see Celivia posting.

IamJoseph,

A new face with well thought out comments and a sense of fairness

Hope you will continue to be involved.

Thank You, I am Joseph.

Yabby
Today I was speaking with an x sheep farmer who tells a different story about live exports. He spoke of their faces distorted with fear in their eyes on the trucks.

He also understands that farmers need to make a quid. What we have to do here is to unite and stand up to the Governments to cut the red tape they use to protect this trade.

Give farmers some viable alternatives- but you have to help yourselves too. All farmers have a moral obligation to these animals they breed as we as the citizens of Australia. We need our farmers in this country and uniting against the red tape together is the answer.

Every regional council should be supporting local abattoirs.

MLA has final say over the councils as to where plants can and can’t operate. It stinks to high heavens.
Speaking of MLA I noted your comments on feedlots- I agree- true.
What I don’t understand about you is what makes you think that feed lots are ok.
You keep saying that many die in feed lots so why not live exports.

It doesn’t make sense. Why do we have feed lot owners setting the standards?

What’s wrong with the smaller farmers that are left standing up?

Why can’t you guys rally a few together and call a meeting with your local regional councils and councilors.

Why not form Co ops plants? I think you might be amazed at the support you would get from the public.
Combine that with addressing Rudd and the Minister for immigration to stop blocking workers in abattoirs.


Work with Animal Welfare organizations so they can drive home the point farmers need to make equal to selling for live exports.

All you are doing really is stopping the middle man (live shipping agents) from ripping you off in the first place.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 31 August 2008 11:09:06 PM
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This thread was about the horrific treatment of animals in China, not resurrecting the live export debate from multiple other threads. The thread about the baby whale went the same way. It was so nice to see other people posting, now I guess we will lose them.

PALE, it would be really good if you kept your mantra to threads on which it is relevant, and stopped corrupting ones where it is not.

It is something of a leap to suggest that MLA controls where Councils will approve slaughterhouses, just for the record.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 31 August 2008 11:57:26 PM
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Yabby

You are no match for Nicky - neither intellectually or ethically. Why do you continue to explain away the inhumane treatment of defenceless animals with vacuous insults? The informed public knows that a tyrant to animals is a tyrant.

"I was weighing a few boisterous lambs (well around the 60kg mark)
just yesterday. Most walk in quietly, the odd one will charge
full-on, into solid steel. They can break their necks, do themselves
brain damage, etc. etc."

If you were being weighed prior to transport on the ships of shame, or for imminent slaughter and separation from the flock, you would be panicking also - particularly after already suffering unimaginable terror and pain from various mutilating surgical procedures.

It's occurred to me that the adrenalin levels in the animals you terrify must be sky high when they are finally killed. Just what that does to the people who eat them I cannot imagine.

Recently Australian and British researchers, in separate trials, concluded that sheep and cattle are indeed intelligent creatures but you insist they are vapid simpletons. Is it because they don't speak your lingo?

Researchers at the McMaster Laboratory in Australia have shown that sheep can learn and remember tasks. “Using the maze, we have already shown that sheep have excellent spatial memory and are able to learn and improve their performance," said researcher Dr Caroline Lee.

Professor Webster, professor of animal husbandry at Bristol University, has published a book on the topic, entitled 'Animal Welfare: Limping Towards Eden.'

Speaking of the intelligence and sentience he witnessed during his research, Webster said, “People have assumed that intelligence is linked to the ability to suffer and that because animals have smaller brains they suffer less than humans. That is a pathetic piece of logic.”

Behavioural scientist Keith Kendrick at the Babraham Institute in Cambridge, concluded during his trials: "Any animal, including humans, once they are scared, tend not to show signs of intelligent behaviour."

This could explain your irrational behaviour so what is it that scares you in your dark and fetid world Yabby? A reduction in profits?
Posted by dickie, Sunday, 31 August 2008 11:59:19 PM
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Nicky
My comment was not off post. I followed the topic as it unfloded before me.
I ask you to now explain your attitude once and all towards pale.

I draw you attention now to a few posts only well before pales to which I responded to.>

1. Live export is not necessary - far easier, economical AND environmentally efficient to slaughter here.

.
Posted by Fractelle, Sunday, 31 August 2008 9:19:57 AM


Fractelle - like I said, I only agree with Yabby about half the time. I don't support live exports…

CJ Morgan, Sunday, 31 August 2008 9:49:28 AM


And the truth is this; livestock produce can and must be managed far more humanely than it is now. There is no justification for live export,..

Posted by Fractelle, Sunday, 31 August 2008 11:00:51 AM

Nor do I believe that all farmers are deliberately cruel. I certainly agree that without the intervention of PETA, nothing would be done about mulesing and pain relief though.
Nor is this about vilifying all farmers. I will, without hesitation, vilify farmers who are deliberately breeding animals for a live export trade which is egregiously cruel (and let's be clear here, 40,000+ animals die on the ships every year with the numbers rising, and that's BEFORE the survivors are brutalized in importing countries). Feedlots ARE an abomination in the context ….
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 31 August 2008 2:08:31 PM

Yes, some sheep die on boats. As some sheep die in feedlots, as some
sheep die in paddocks, or in yards, or on trucks. There are all

Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 31 August 2008 7:08:40 PM

Nicky
If you took in what I am saying you might actually learn something of importance.
I pointed out that feed lot owners set the standards.
Something that clearly has gone over your head and others.

I was also addressing Yabby and enquiring of him if he were aware of this fact.

I think you have made yourself look foolish and we will post what we like bt
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 1 September 2008 12:55:43 AM
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Then either start a thread on which your comments are relevant to the discussion or stay on the topic of the ones you do post on. Your efforts here are manifestly irrelevant to this thread. Every discussion thread is not created as a soapbox for PALE to advertise its slaughterhouse interests over and over again ad nauseum. We have heard it all so often.

Where exactly do you see the value of copying and pasting the posts of others when we have already read them?

I have clearly stated my "attitude" to PALE as a matter of record many times, and quite frankly I am bored stiff with it. I do not want to be part of anything that implies profiteering from animal slaughter. Is that clear enough for you?

Feedlots in themselves do not "set the standards" (that's as fatuous a notion as stating that MLA determines where Councils approve slaughterhouses). In both cases, there are processes to be followed, in which all interested parties can make submissions (including MLA), and the processes apply varying degrees if democratic consultation. Councillors have their re-election future to consider, and while there may be some institutionalized corruption, it certainly does not come close to your conspiracy theories. In the other context the feedlot standards are determined partly by feedlot concerns, but in consultation with the RSPCA, AA and the PIMC for animal welfare.

I really don't think there is anything I would be interested in "learning" from you at all.

Certainly you can post what you like, but have you noticed that all rational, objective contributors disappear once you appear?

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 1 September 2008 2:10:09 AM
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Nicky Said

*Where exactly do you see the value of copying and pasting the posts of others when we have already read them?*
Nicky

I put the earier comments up to point out we were not off post and simply repying to the many comments.




That was my point which I was mainly directing to Yabby.


Yabby has a point you know when he says you need to go out and get some first hand experience.
Your problem I feel often with my posts is you dont understand the industry enough to follow what I am saying.
If its not in your PETA book then it seems you have difficulty in following.

I know you care and that is very much to your credit but dont try to stop others who understand the industry from making informed comments.

Yes people do leave threads usually about this time when you for no reason attack pale.

The people need to know this Nicky- That Pale are working in conjunction with RSPCA QLD on this project. They can look at these sites and read the information= I fail to see considering you claim to work alone why they wouldnt want information from RSPCA QLD and PALE.
if they click here they will see our CEO RSPCA QLD along with others and you never know especially the new posters might like to see what alternatives RSPCA QLD are supporting.
If thats ok with you.

http://www.halakindmeats.com/
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 1 September 2008 2:49:04 AM
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Yeah well, this is exactly why I stopped posting on (or even reading) the animal welfare threads.

Animal welfare discussions seem to always start off well, like this one- but sooner or later end up in bickering, miscommunication, misunderstandings and personal insults.

I wonder why that is the case- perhaps animals, being so very cute and helpless, stir up very strong emotions in people.

Anyway, I've expressed my opinion about the very cruel fur industry in China and will leave it at that.

Thanks for spreading awareness about fur, Nicky.
Posted by Celivia, Monday, 1 September 2008 9:22:24 AM
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Nicky

I think it was my 'bad' for introducing live export to the thread. I was just getting so tired of the same old personal insults from Yabby.

He may be a farmer, but knows nothing of the illicit fur trade in cat/dog/seal etc.

Perhaps Yabby, you could edify yourself with the following article. Then you might understand the issue under discussion here and cease with flinging insults at contributors.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2003/s893417.htm

Extract:

"STRUAN STEVENSON: Here, for instance, is a coat that was bought in Berlin. This was made horribly from 42 Alsation puppies. It is a full length fur coat and it costs a considerable amount of money. It's made in China and it's been DNA tested in the University of Amsterdam and confirmed as dog fur.

GEOFF HUTCHISON: With the help of animal welfare investigators, Struan Stevenson has collected emphatic evidence of a grotesque trade; a large black blanket sewn from the pelts of dozens of cats, supposedly a therapeutic aid for arthritis sufferers and then a rug acquired in Copenhagen made from the fur of four golden retrievers.

STRUAN STEVENSON: Of course, the labels will describe this either as a mythical animal, like a subaki, gaywolf, Asian jackal, things that don't exist.

GEOFF HUTCHISON: Struan Stevenson then showed me the photographs of the Chinese farms which produced them...."

Be warned this article is not for the faint of heart.
Posted by Fractelle, Monday, 1 September 2008 9:49:10 AM
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Dickie, we understand the differences in sheep behaviour. Its due to temperament
and can be genetically selected for. Its not due to your anthropomorphisms about
intellectualising the minds of sheep. It shows yet once again why housewives
like yourself , get it all wrong and why we need professionals in the respective
fields.

But you missed the point of my argument completely. Sheep will do silly things,
for no good reason, which damages their health or damages other sheep. So
you will invariably have some losses, if you run them on a property or handle
them in yards, feedlots etc.

Nicky, I have challenged your qualifications before now, you have never been
able to name one, that was critical when it comes to livestock production.
If after all this time and your many posts, you are suddenly now going to pull
one out of your alleged qualifications hat, well then say so.

The term “livestock” is common in our language and is even used by the
RSPCA, in fact throughout society. You berate others for using it and
have lectured me about it as well. The point is, to go to those kinds of
extremes, shows how fanatical you are about this topic and that is
my point. This is not about Nicky caring about animal welfare, this
is about Nicky the vegan extremist, who would happily shut down
all livestock production, given half a chance
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 1 September 2008 9:50:49 AM
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"But you missed the point of my argument completely."

Yabby

You don't have an argument particularly when you foolishly state:

"Its not due to your anthropomorphisms about
intellectualising the minds of sheep."

and:

"It shows yet once again why housewives like yourself , get it all wrong and why we need professionals in the respective fields."

If it were possible for you to quit your addiction to "I, me, myself" you would have realised that I was quoting from papers provided by qualified professionals in animal research:

Profs. Webster and Kendrick and Dr Caroline Lee.
Posted by dickie, Monday, 1 September 2008 10:59:51 AM
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*I was just getting so tired of the same old personal insults from Yabby.*

Err Fractelle, I did explain to you that I defend myself, when
insulted by the DickiesnNickys of this world. But then perhaps
this is just another case of the OLO sisterhood sticking together,
which does not surprise me. Only your clear bias is a little obvious
in this case. I have not commented on the Chinese fur trade, mearly
commented about ugg boots being just fine and quite different.

Dickie, your comment about why sheep will run headlong into steel
or other solid matter, was your personal anthropomorphism and had
nothing to do with any expert opinions. Reread your own post.

You have no idea as to why those lambs were being weighed, or what
treatments they have had. As it just happens, they are from my
experimental flock, which still have tails and testicles intact.

Sheep behavioural experts, who are qualified in the field, will tell
you that it is due to temperament, but course Dickie the housewife
knows better yet once again! Wisecracks from the cheap seats, simply
show up your ignorance about this topic.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 1 September 2008 12:15:01 PM
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As far as China is concered the best we can do is to try to open a RSPCA in China.

Education is the key and there could not be a better time as China claims to want to open up more to the world they may be quite interested to be involved in a international organisation.

We must be very careful not to only attack them.

RSPCA QLD and sea world for example have done a lot of work with China re bears and housing.
If a proposal was put together in the correct manner and possibly? supported by Sea world who have been working with heads perhaps we could slowly help them to make changes.

China has spent a lot of money to make some changes.

To encourge good Animal Welfare in China is the best way to approach it.

I think we will only acheive some things for the better if we think how we can educate while leaving them some pride.

Very difficult thing to do of course when one sees such utter cruelty.

The other thing we can do is set a good example by by having good Animal Welfare ourselves.

These problems call for a cool head and wise leaders who can educate and befriend them not offend and make enermies.
If we do that we can never help the animals.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 1 September 2008 12:52:27 PM
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Nicky and everyone

Below is a link to sign a petition for the World Society for the Protection of Animals - Australia and New Zealand.

http://www.wspa.org.au/animal_week.asp

"Promoting animal welfare, protecting human health
In the last 10 years, over 75% of the diseases that reached people were caused by infections from animals or animal products. Recognising that better care for animals will also help prevent the development of diseases that can be passed to humans, WSPA and the Pan American Health Organization (PAHO) are working together for change."

Now,Yabby.

I have no idea why there is such a dearth of males on Animal Welfare threads here on OLO. It is a shame because, you have a very limited view on animal welfare - I take you haven't bothered to read any on the links that have been provided. This topic really needs contribution from more people - not just the usual suspects.

That there are primarily women expressing their concerns regarding animal welfare is beyond my understanding. I do not encounter such an imbalance in my own activities.

Anyway, I can understand that you feel isolated on this topic, therefore it would behoove you not to take swipes at Nicky et al because of their gender, and instead stick to the debate. We are not all "girls" or "housewives" - I am sure that there is a variety of women here who come from diverse back grounds - just like men really. Yeah really. When you lump all women together as some kind of anti-male conspiracy it is insulting, and you wonder why people react. This "Dickie started it first" just sounds whiney and immature. Get over it.

Either debate the issue or leave.
Posted by Fractelle, Monday, 1 September 2008 1:41:23 PM
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Fractelle, thanks so much for the link to that petition. With regard to Yabby, I have made a decision not to continue pointless arguments with him (since "ugg boots" are entirely irrelevant to this particular debate anyway) beyond wholeheartedly endorsing your comments about gratuitous sexist insults, and lame, repetitive, baseless arguments that we are all bored senseless by.

PALE, I take it that if bullying and threats doesn't work, the new strategy is patronizing. How dare you? You have no way of knowing what anyone else does or doesn't know, beyond being so blind in your own self-aggrandizement. That DOESN'T WORK ANY MORE.

It would be very interesting to know what precisely RSPCA Queensland has done about bear bile farming, but SEA WORLD? The last time I looked these particular bears were not sea creatures, and it may have escaped your attention that Sea World's business is in fact keeping wild sea creatures in captivity for human entertainment (and I use the term loosely, obviously). And this - the fur trade and the feeding of live animals to captive predators can all be fixed with an RSPCA and ... EDUCATION (and SEA WORLD)?

GIVE US A BREAK!

Celivia, I am so sorry you are leaving us, but I fully understand why. Please take the time to sign the petitions about fur that have been posted here though.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 1 September 2008 6:57:54 PM
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Fractelle, I pointed out to you why mostly women post on the animal
welfare threads, you have yet to refute the basic biology. Ad hominem
attacks are not going to do it for you, sorry.

I freely admit that my debating style is not the touchy-feely-
sensitive-feminine type that most females seem to prefer. Well that's
just too bad. I make informed points of reason, any of you are free
to refute them. The fact that most of the time you can't, makes
my point for me. I also refuse to deny basic biology and neuroscience,
in the name of your feelgood defence of your sisterhood.
Put up or shut up please, Fractelle.

I certainly do not feel isolated on this topic, simply highly amused
by it :) Here we have a bunch of feelgood, unqualified posters,
way out of their depth, insulting agriculture and the thousands
of professionals who work in the industry. When they make statements
which are nonsense, I point it out, its a simple as that. I did not
raise live exports on this thread, nor the other topics raised, but
I will certainly respond, when feelgood posters dribble on, well as
they might mean it, with huge little hearts and all.

The last Pale post actually made some sense. China is evolving and
changing, from a point of starvation, towards a modern economy.
As that happens, RSPCA China and similar, would make lots of sense.
Just insulting the Chinese, will get you exactly nowhere, for they
will tell you to get stuffed, in the name of pride.

No I won't sign your petition, as its little more then a feelgood
exercise and won't make a scrap of difference. Its also a great
way for WSPCA to rattle the tin. Creating more RSPCAs in China
itself, makes far more sense.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 1 September 2008 9:00:51 PM
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I think we can all rest our case about Yabby, since he finds this topic one of great amusement. His naivete is simply extraordinary.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 2 September 2008 1:07:13 AM
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Fractelle did the most sensible thing in the beginning of this thread. She put up this link for people to read.+

http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RSPCA/RSPCARedirect&pg=fur&marker=1&articleId=1169629019054


I have seen her posts on animal welfare many times and may I suggest this.

Perhaps you could write to Dr Wirth and suggest the RSPCA Branch in China.
We could ask our RSPCA QLD CEO but honestly he’s so busy.
I prefer not to approach Hugh myself.

Please do not think I am giving you instructions because that’s not the way in which I mean it.
You seem to be a little better at keeping a cool head and that’s important.
One of RSPCA problems (their biggest) is having the right people to support their programs.


Possibly you might offer to help out there too. Again I have no way of knowing how much time you have on your hands.


RSPCA QLD has done a lot of work with Sea world which is out of our area. We just know our CEO despite the high profile of Sea world stepped in over some sharks once.

Despite this he remained on very good terms also have done fantastic work educating.

On one occasion I think six or eight heads visited and stayed for many weeks learning more about proper care.

We do not have any involvement other than live exports

(Not even intensive farming)

So this is just other things that I know about + Some ideas on how to assist China`s` animals.

Yabby is correct about more women being involved in Animal welfare.
I put that down to many things. I would also encourage everybody to take in what he says about Government red tape on issues other than fur in China.
Like it or not he’s correct and it is this we must address. The bush has lost its power with Government so farmers need city support- desperately along with unity and alternatives. 50% are gone already
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 2 September 2008 9:14:27 AM
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"Creating more RSPCAs in China
itself, makes far more sense." (Yabby - endorsed by PALE)

Dream on you pair. Whilst the RSPCA's "good" works deserve some accolades, Australia has seen an alarming increase in animal cruelty and why not when the foxes are put in charge of the chickens?

Information gleaned from this thread, on China's heinous treatment of animals, has certainly influenced me to cease purchasing anything that's "Made in China" wherever possible. It is to our shame that the West's sycophantic governments remain mute over these atrocities whilst exporting their animals to China and potentially, into the hands of these depraved monsters.

Yabby, Why not remove the dollar signs from your peepers and cease viewing these barbarians as cash cows? Australia's canines are not yet included in live exports to China though no doubt you're working on that too, eh cowboy?

Warning: The following video is not for the faint-hearted but then the faint-hearted (in denial) should take some responsibility for today's atrocities - should they not?:

http://www.peta2.com/takecharge/t-chinafur.asp

This additional petition for posters' perusal, will be presented to President HU Jintao at the end of 2008:

http://www.onevoice-ear.org/english/campaigns/china/dog_report.html
Posted by dickie, Tuesday, 2 September 2008 2:02:16 PM
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*has certainly influenced me to cease purchasing anything that's "Made in China" wherever possible.*

Ooh Dickie, the fact that those few $ of your pension will now
not be spent on Chinese goods, is bound to send their economy into
a tailspin now :) A feelgood exercise if I ever heard one!

When it comes to China, I have psychologists blinkers in my eyes,
not $. If you want to bring about change, use your intellect,
not your melodrama. Standover tactics don't work, as George Bush
and Co have found out the hard way.

If those claiming to care about animal welfare want to be taken
seriously, they will need to start employing qualified people, to
pass intelligent comments, not cause marketing specialists and
websites full of feelgood propaganda. Every species is different
and to throw them all in the one pot, as you girls do, is extremely
bad science!

The RSPCA are about the only ones that I 've seen, who employ people
with some relevant skills. The rest seem to be littered with feelgood
animal rights campaigners, with huge bleeding hearts but little
understanding of the species which they are commenting about.
So why should industry people take them seriously? That is
exactly why I find the NicknDick posts so amusing
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 2 September 2008 2:47:43 PM
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The RSPCA has, of course, been such an outstanding success at preventing animal cruelty in Australia, of course, as we keep seeing.

Beating to death, skinning alive, and being thrown live to predators who have lost the ability to kill cleanly would be horrific whatever the species, Yabby, but I'm pleased to see you find it amusing.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 2 September 2008 5:52:18 PM
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Dickie, thanks for those links (as horrific as they were). And don't you believe it about dogs not being exported live to Asia. It is the fate of many "failed" greyhounds to be exported to Korea and Macau (along with racehorses). One can only imagine what happens to them.

Many other "failed" greyhounds finish up in experimentation laboratories.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 2 September 2008 6:34:01 PM
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And there's more ...

http://www.idausa.org/news/currentnews/nr_070212a.html

Investigations of the Chinese fur industry revealed dogs and cats packed into wire cages, stacked by the thousands onto trucks, and transported to be killed for their pelts. Investigators documented employees on fur farms throwing cages from the tops of trucks to the ground - then killing the animals by hanging, strangulation or electrocution. Investigators also witnessed dogs, cats and other animals being skinned alive and then thrown onto a pile of other processed animals. Some of them continued to live, their eyes blinking and their hearts visibly beating inside their exposed ribs for up to ten minutes.

A prior investigation of fur farms in China showed workers attempting to stun foxes and raccoon dogs by slamming them against the ground or bashing their heads with clubs. Such unreliable methods also left many animals fully conscious after the fur was ripped from their bodies.

More than half of the fur products imported into the U.S. are from China, a country where there are no animal welfare regulations. "Flaunting the skin from a tortured animal's back is a blatant disrespect for life", says IDA Campaign Coordinator Melissa Gonzalez. "People must take personal responsibility by refusing to buy fur and fur trim, thus ending the demand for cheap fur goods".

And the ones they eat ...
http://www.onevoice-ear.org/english/campaigns/china/dog_report.html

"...Mr Chu stabbed it in the chest with the knife. If he was aiming for its heart, he missed. The tragic dog screamed...

For several agonising minutes it stood in shock, pathetically licking the wound as its blood pooled beneath it yet, terribly, still wagging its tail at our team. Mr Chu stabbed it again. Its howls of pain and puzzlement were unbearable. He dragged it from the cage, blood dripping, tail still wag­ging, pushed it over and stabbed it yet again, twisting in the knife as it howled even more. Then the son dragged the dog to the pot and thrust it into the boiling water, still twitching with life"

Still think "education" is the key?

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 2 September 2008 7:24:14 PM
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Education is always the key in the longer term Nicky, but suit
yourself. Keep calling them barbarians and savages and see how
much cooperation that you get.

We would only know how much the RSPCA do, if there was no RSPCA.
In WA the Govt hardly contributes to the organisation, so given
this fact, we can really complain about the job that they do,
for nobody else is doing it. At least they focus on animal welfare
and not on animal liberation. They do, even use the word "livestock"
shock, horror.

I have said nowhere that anything in China amuses me, what I have
said is that the NicknDick naive approach to life amuses me.
Its all feelgood stuff, great for comfort for yourself, but clearly
not very effective.

I have said before that if the animal welfare lobby wants to bring
about change in the third world, it might be a good idea to get
animal welfare included in the huge amount of money that Australia
gives away each year, in development aid projects.

But keep kidding yourself, abusing others and signing your petitions.
See how far you get
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 2 September 2008 7:53:28 PM
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Dickie

Here is an example of work in the past carried out by RSPCA. “Pls note pale is responding to comments- not diverting”.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/15/2304043.htm

I do understand your frustration but we need to support RSPCA and yes demand it’s even better! It’s a big job with little staff.

Here’s another link

http://blog1.rspcasa.asn.au/2007/08/28/rspca-members-be-aware/

Getting back to China, I was waiting for a reponse from Fractelle + interested to hear what she thought of the suggestion.

Yabby said
*I have said before that if the animal welfare lobby wants to bring
About change in the third world*

Once again, I have to give full marks to Yabby.. I have also said the same thing and suggested a bill of rights for Animal Welfare supported and presented by the 'right people'to be put to the UN long ago.

Getting back to China.

Its “horrific” dogs and cats and packed in cages and killed for fur- It’s unthinkable to us and makes everybody outraged.

Being outraged is a normal. There is only one way to fix it. That IS education.

Has anybody done research into the suppliers of these toys bags clothing etc?

Is it possible ,we could donate to them machinery to manufacture fake fur, and toss in a few "new contracts from major suppliers" who have already banned fur.

There would be a ton of money floating around that would be available.

Why Havent we done that already?

I am one hundred percent sure the RSPCA would support such a move.
Any such proposal is going to be far more readily accepted from the Chinese Government if it’s presented by an international organization such as RSPCA.

I do not see China on the other hand listening too much to others.

They are not a country to be bullied and although personally do agree with boycotting products from China- they no doubt would view it in a slightly different manner.

On the other hand the other way if RSPCA would support such a proposal...
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 3 September 2008 8:51:56 AM
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"Once again, I have to give full marks to Yabby." (Pale)

Only the very naive would give "full marks" to the heartless Yabby, Pale, for his motives are never altruistic.

And again he advocates "educating" a nation. Just like the Meat and Livestock apostles he boasts about who were dispatched to the Middle East (compliments of taxpayers) to "educate" and preach their evil gospel to their partners in cruelty who, despite the "conversion" we were assured of, were again exposed by Animals Australia as sadistic animal abusers.

"The RSPCA are about the only ones that I've seen, who employ people
with some relevant skills."

Another totally fallacious statement from Yabby who clearly regards all posters on this thread as total idiots.

The RSPCA, no doubt does the best they can under the circumstances. On a national scale, they have in excess of 75 full-time inspectors and some 75 part-time inspectors.

However in the years 2006-2007, the RSPCA received 42,000 complaints which saw 352 prosecutions culminating in a puny 236 convictions for the entire nation.

The figures above are not cause for celebration PALE so your link revealing the RSPCA's disparaging remarks about other welfare groups simply mitigates their credibility.

May I also remind the unconscionable Yabby that it was the NSW Young Lawyers Animal Rights Committee (not the RSPCA) who wrote to Senator Chris Ellison, then Minister for Customs & Justice in 2003 calling for a ban on all products made from dog and cat fur. The request was due to the Humane Society Australia's (not the RSPCA) release of a video inside China exposing the abject cruelty committed on these defenceless victims.

If it were not for dozens of animal welfare groups in Australia and beyond, bringing these atrocities to our attention, we would not be debating this issue.

During the last three days, I have visited furniture stores, pet product suppliers and departmental stores - counter to counter. I have spoken to dozens of employers and employees advising them of China's vile treatment of animals. They were indeed receptive and genuinely shocked.

Knowledge is power!

http://animalsaviors.org/haveyoursay.html
Posted by dickie, Friday, 5 September 2008 12:34:37 AM
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If the Australian government takes no notice of the RSPCA, any notion that anyone in China (all billions of them) would do so is simply absurd. PALE, can it be that you do not know of the Universal Declaration for Animal Rights?

http://www.uncaged.co.uk/declarat.htm

The wretched sadists of China are as receptive to the concept of animal welfare as the bloodthirsty butchers of the Middle East, and it is the international organizations like PETA and WSPA, and the Swiss animal protection group who are in there addressing matters in China. Let's not forget that Australia exports animals to China, too.

As for that reference to RSPCA SA - I hope everyone read the reply comments; and also Mark Parnall (Greens SA) speeches to Parliament that exposed RSPCA for just what it is, an organization controlled by the intensive pig farmers, despite its claims to the contrary. Takes us all back to "A Blind Eye", doesn't it, with the sweetheart deal between RSPCA NSW and Pace Farms, and the live exporters on the State Council of RSPCA WA (one with a cruelty conviction for testing 1080 poison on dogs). In Tasmania, the CEO had to quit over one lie too many to its greatest benefactor, who then withdrew millions of dollars in funding. Victoria has got Wirthless.

Just what we need to be "leading" animal welfare in this country really. But it's good to see Bidda Jones come out with her excellent keynote address to the Animal Welfare Conference on the Gold Coast (which PALE appears to have missed. I wonder why?).

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 5 September 2008 12:50:19 AM
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Dickie


I don’t agree the RSPCA are the only ones to have good people. What I can tell you is the QLD CEO spent many hours meeting with people from other groups.




He explained with the patience of a saint ‘over and over’ again what he ‘ could’ and ‘couldn’t’ take to court-(i.e. Evidence gained illegally can not be used in court-.) To present such a case would mean they would wear the costs and it would be kicked out – (not to mention a blast from the court)
RSPCA can not act with evidence gained by tress pass etc. That is not their fault- It’s the law!.
Would they like more powers- QLD would that’s for sure. I can’t speak for others but since RSPCA QLD Animal rescue has been aired phones are even busier.

That is a good thing, to bring about public awareness and educate the public.

RSPCA remarks were not disparaging at all. You are well aware of your little army of girls trying to take over from RSPCA. After all you lot have been trailing pale for four years now. That is why you come into OLO forum in the first place – All of you.- isn’t it.

Stop RSPCA stop PALE That’s the” orders” You are so blind Dickie. Why would anybody want to STOP ‘any group’ working to help animals?

“Think about it.” There are too few now.

. If you want my honest opinion NOBODY has done enough for Animals in the years- not RSPCA- Not Animals Australia and Not PETA. Not PALE



You all had twenty years to make contact with Muslim Leaders and farmers. Even the X Federal leader of the AMIEU said nobody other than pale had EVER held an appointment with him other than Pale and RSPCA QLD

*Young Lawyers Animal Rights*
Pease remember who suggested - Young Lawyers Animal Rights! before you come in here having a go at me. Oh didn’t they tell you? Why am I not surprised.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 5 September 2008 7:01:40 AM
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Pale
Pale will not be responding to post from Nicky at the request from all people we work with.
We are aware of this persons real identity. RSPCA QLD have done a wonderful job with the staff and powers they have. They have spear headed many projects including pale.
'

Pale has already stated very clearly for anybody interested they did attend the Gold Coast Meeting.( I am pretty sure nobody gives a toss)

Regarding China we have been supporting a small group who work with dogs and cats. Wish we could do more.
We have also heard two new groups have started up just last week.It was on the news there- think they might be connected to PETA but unsure.

There are two people living in China who are happy to assist anybody with sensible ideas to help Animals.

If anybody wishes to actually do something pls feel free to ask for their email address.
I will be posting less while working on my property.

OLO is only a tiny part of our work and I need time to work on more important things for animals.

Nobody will debate animal welfare in a sensibly manner here anyway.

Yabby has told it like it is.

You all need to do something other than bitch about the only group in 30 years that even tried.

30 years yet nobody was doing anything about live exports- Until pale started! Thats a fact and you dare have a go at pale

You need to ask Glenyse why she told us she didnt touch live exports because it was too political 6 years ago! or was it 7 Glenyse.?

Well guess what? Thats why we opended pale!

I do not have time for anybody with a political agenda- be that Hugh or anybody else.
All that matters to us is the animals. Calling China names will help ~I dont think~ and RSPCA `are` the ones to help animals in China.

Funny how you all rubbish Dr Wirthless but praise WSPA.?

Hugh with is the President of WSPA BTW.
`Speaking of politics.`

Carry on...
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 5 September 2008 7:42:19 AM
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Obviously PALE's multiple personalities have all got together in their own little mind and decided not to respond to anything I challenge it/them with, hsving determined that I am some mystical being with whom they have had some past difference of opinion.

As fr Yabby, he tells it like it is only from the farmer's perspective - and the worst of the farmers at that.

For those interested, PF left an excellent comment on the other thread "A Royal Commission into Farmers' Practices..." about the conference on the Gold Coast.

As for TWO people in China being available to help with "sensible" projects - all I can say is are you not aware of the population of China, and the entrenched nature of the culture culture of cruelty? Geography and demography are clearly not PALE's strong points.

As for being the only group to be doing anything about live exports, one only has to read the histories of the other groups. I am not in contact with Glenys Oogjes, and I had nothing to do with Wirthless being in the position he is (other than knowing that it is a rotating position and not one based on merit).

As for what is admissible evidence, every animal advocate knows what is admissible and what is not. The point is that, in the experience of a number of us, the RSPCA (in various states) has been given evidence that would form the basis of a complaint, in the expectation that the RSPCA would then acquire admissible evidence, There has then either been a "tip-off" of an imminent RSPCA inspection and/or the operation concerned has been given ample time to "clean up its act".

THAT is what we all object to. What happened about the chickens?

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 5 September 2008 1:37:04 PM
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"Hugh with is the President of WSPA BTW. `Speaking of politics.`"

"Speaking of politics" PALE, Hugh Wirth is NOT President of the WSPA, btw.
Posted by dickie, Friday, 5 September 2008 7:05:20 PM
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*and the worst of the farmers at that.*

Hehe, those poor sheep lol. Grazing contentedly in the sunshine,
chewing the cud or chomping on another mouthful of tasty pasture,
or rearing their young, or the young playing little games with
one another, running around the dams. This is shocking, evil stuff :)

You still don't get it Nicky. There is global demand for meat, WA
farmers produce livestock to meet that demand and do a great job
at it. If you have a problem with the live trade, you or anyone
else are free to buy those sheep, they are for sale, and process them
here, to deal with your concerns.

If you have no interest in that, well then tough titties, they
will go to those people who buy them. My sheep on my farm have
happy lives. That matters to me.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 5 September 2008 9:07:56 PM
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It is pointless going down the same old path with Yabby time and time again on every thread he corrupts with total irrelevance - so I won't.

So back to the despicable Chinese ..

Undercover investigators from Swiss Animal Protection/EAST International recently toured fur farms in China's Hebei Province, and it quickly became clear why outsiders are banned from visiting. There are no regulations governing fur farms in China—farmers can house and slaughter animals however they see fit—meaning miserable lives and excruciating deaths. The investigators found horrors beyond their worst imaginings and concluded, "Conditions on Chinese fur farms make a mockery of the most elementary animal welfare standards. In their lives and their unspeakable deaths, these animals have been denied even the simplest acts of kindness."

Living Hell
On these farms, foxes, minks, rabbits, and other animals pace and shiver in outdoor wire cages, exposed to driving rain, freezing nights, and, at other times, scorching sun. Mother animals, who are driven crazy from rough handling and intense confinement and have nowhere to hide while giving birth, often kill their babies after delivering litters. Disease and injuries are widespread, and animals suffering from anxiety-induced psychosis chew on their own limbs and throw themselves repeatedly against the cage bars.

And here is another petition.

http://www.gopetition.com.au/petitions/stop-fur-farming.html

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 5 September 2008 10:31:51 PM
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Nicky: << So back to the despicable Chinese .. >>

I can't think of a context in which this wouldn't be considered to be a racist expression.

Hmmm... this seems to be another thing that our most vocal animal rights activists have in common. Interesting.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 5 September 2008 11:21:58 PM
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*It is pointless going down the same old path with Yabby time and time again on every thread he corrupts with total irrelevance - so I won't.*

Of course its pointless Nicky, for your wierd philsophy prevents
you from thinking about an all round win-win solution, so nothing
changes.

The fact that my animals should lead happy and contended lives is
very relevant, certainly to them and to myself.

Just as its impossible on OLO to convince runner, BD, Philo
and other religious nuts, that their philosophy and bible are
flawed, its impossible to convince fanatics like Nicky, that their
philosophy is flawed. Fanatics will be fanatics, whatever their
chosen cause and ideology. Fair enough, I can't help that
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 5 September 2008 11:30:52 PM
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For a very long time Hugh was Preident of both RSPCA and WSPA.
That was my point to anybody other than Nicky whom may be interested in the topic.

http://www.wspa.org.au/news.asp?newsID=396

Strong regional presence on WSPA Board

Australia and New Zealand will be well represented on WSPA’s international Board with the renewed four year terms of Board members Dr Hugh Wirth from Australia and Peter Mason from New Zealand.

Dr Wirth is WSPA Australia and New Zealand Chairman and RSPCA Victoria President, and Peter Mason is New Zealand RSPCA’s National President.

The appointments were announced at WSPA’s AGM in London on June 3.

New WSPA President Dominique Bellemare from Canada said: “I am delighted to announce the reappointment of Dr Wirth and Mr Mason to WSPA’s Board. They will make a contribution to our mission to build a united global animal welfare movement. WSPA’s unique position as a global organisation shaped and influenced by our Member Societies means that our Board is able to represent the best in animal welfare practice and campaigning across the world.”
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 6 September 2008 6:05:36 AM
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Fractelle,

I see you have left the thread after being asked for an opinion on China and an RSPCA branch.- interesting.



The people in China are ‘influential. . However as you all wish.

Again you have shown you are not really interested to help- just bitch.

I must say it’s good to see some people AT LAST listening to PF.
At least PALE has done something on this forum.

It’s a start ,but you need to multiply it and you can learn something from all farmers if your willing to listen. Farmers I know do not agree with intensive farming or live exports. Mind you I suggest you hurry along now if you want to find any real farmers left. 50% are gone-

You guys really have a lot to answer for. You had years to make contacts with real farmers before they were muscled out of the industry. The good farmers needed public support and so did they animals-but you did nothing.
You attcked the Farmers the Muslims and now the Chinese- how counter productive

What an awful mess this Animal Welfare In Australia has created.


We had several with Suzanne Cazz written across the bottom where someone forgot to take their real ID off.

My point is until people stop playing games and get behind the RSPCA animals will continue to suffer.

For years the extremists have battled to cripple RSPCA to take control of fund raising IMO.



The only way to do that is to introduce a whole new team of players into the meat industry that are smart enough to see the protential in selling their product as cruelty free.


Now when AA or anybody else actually comes up with a project to introduce more free range farmers and reopen abattoirs like pale has- THEN you can say you really working to help animals.

Until then, I am sorry but there is none so blind that can not see.
Take your blinkers off and stop making it harder for RSPCA to do their job.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 6 September 2008 7:20:19 AM
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"Hugh with is the President of WSPA BTW. `Speaking of politics.`"

PALE

Get real. Do you not comprehend? Hugh With (sic) is NOT president of the WSPPA!

And behold the resurrection. Enter one Mad Dog Morgan - a colluder to the traders in live animal flesh which is sold to the highest bidder - not least the sadists in China.

And beware posters. Should you denounce the Hitler regime, you are expressing hatred for the German people;

Should you denounce the Taliban, you are expressing hatred for all Muslims;

Should you denounce the Chinese sadists, you are expressing hatred for the Chinese people;

This is the way of the mad dog bushwacker - everyone who threatens his bank balance is a racist.

For those who trade in live animals to China it matters not that:

From pet food to toothpaste, tyres to jewellery and seafood to toys, questions have been raised over the reliability of Chinese-made goods.

The death of a child who swallowed a magnet from a Chinese-made toy last year and the illness of others who have consumed Chinese goods is a mere peccadillo to the regime of Animals Auschwitz - Australia.

contd....
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 6 September 2008 11:42:35 AM
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contd.....

Mad Dog cares not that in Panama, the deaths of some 51 people have been blamed on cough syrup tainted with Chinese-made diethylene glycol, commonly used in antifreeze. The same chemical has been found in toothpastes from China sold in the US and Canada.

Earlier this year, more than 100 brands of cat and dog food were pulled from the shelves in the US after hundreds of pets died from eating food contaminated with the chemical melamine, traced back to wheat gluten from China.

Chinese imports are in the multi-billions of dollars to the West - nearly triple the figure of five years ago.

Why should Mad Dog care that a Chinese manufacture was found to mix lard with human sewage and sold to the highest bidder?

China's less-than-stellar behavior as a food exporter is revealed in stomach-turning detail in FDA "refusal reports" filed by U.S. inspectors: Juices and fruits rejected as "filthy." Prunes tinted with chemical dyes not approved for human consumption. Frozen breaded shrimp preserved with nitrofuran, an antibacterial that can cause cancer. Swordfish rejected as "poisonous."

In the first four months of 2007, US FDA inspectors -- who are able to check out less than 1 percent of regulated imports -- refused 298 food shipments from China.

China is illegally dumping its lethal products around the world (including Australia) and Mad Dog calls Nicky a "racist" because she objects to Chinese traders ripping the flesh from live animals.

Yabby and Mad Dog are sick, demented, excuses for humanity, sycophants of the criminal elements in trade and traitors to their own creed.
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 6 September 2008 11:52:54 AM
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*Yabby and Mad Dog are sick, demented, excuses for humanity, *

Hehe, so says a 50kg leightweight grandma, who goes around threatening
to kick people in the groin. Careful Dickie, at the next demo,
those farmers from the PGA might just hang you on a coathanger as
their mascot :)
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 6 September 2008 2:55:07 PM
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Dickie
Here are a few words from Hugh Wirth =

*Ihave concluded my two-year term
as president of the WSPA but will
continue to serve the Society as the
immediate-past president. I was
gratified by the huge development
of the organisation achieved during..... *


There is no reason to speak that way- to us - Or I should say post.

My point was Hugh was President of WSPA and RSPCA for a long time . He now is Australias *immediate-past president.* ( "If you prefer').! He is still speaking on behalf of WSPA in Australia....
I am not going to split hairs with you over this- especially over Dr Wirth.

I do not think it assists to improve Animal Welfare or benefit Animals either by name calling.

You people have a long history of calling Farmers, Muslims, RSPCA and 'now the Chinese' names. That may serve to make you feel better in your frustration seeing the cruelty to animals but let me assure you that is self indugent and to make a difference requires a little more. In fact your doing untold damage .

We are ( supposed to be) reaching out to the public). The public reading your comments walk away from listening about animal cruelty when you start talking like that let me assure you.

Your leaders taught badly. This has been the problem over the last twenty years.

We all feel the same about animal cruelty but no degree of name calling will stop it.

The only thing that will stop it is for the industry itself to change.

For Animal welfare organisations to assist to guide farmers and those within the industry to see the huge protential in marketing the products as cruelty and disease free world wide.

To find other players to become involved within the industry who hold a high degree of standards regarding the way in which animals are treated.

Animal Welfare has become a political topic world wide.
We need to use this oportunity - not abuse it.

Do try to comprehend.

For the Animals .

People In Conjunction with RSPCA QL
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 6 September 2008 6:22:27 PM
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Ah Dickie, it is fine for PALE (and Yabby and CJ Morgan) to call everyone else names, patronise them and insult them, and the rest of us, in PALE's view, know nothing about campaigning for animal welfare. I am mystified, however, about what role PALE played in enhancing PF's profile - PF does a very capable job without, I'd suggest, the dubious benefit of endorsement by PALE.

I'm not even going to bother with PALE's notions of who I am or may be - they thought Cuphandle, a retired farmer in his 60s, was Deborah from AAQ. PALE, if you think you know who I am, prove it (although proof is not your strongest methodology, is it?).

CJM, I will not withdraw from my comments about the Chinese, because the proof is self-evident and posted extensively on this thread. As the saying goes - "if the cap fits..." PALE, I have at no time "called Muslims names", I have criticized some of the worst of Muslim human (and animal) rights abuses and I do not withdraw from that either. As for farmers, the criticisms I have made relate to the practices of some farmers, those being intensive and live export farmers. I have made that clear, and you know it.

As for "supporting the real farmers" (of whom 50% are "gone" - where on earth do you get your statistics from?) the government does that to such an extent that I feel no need to; my tax dollars do it for me. It is farmers who need to learn that community acceptance of what they do and how they do it needs to be earned. You can only fool some of the people some of the time; the intensive pig farmers are finding that out with the "Lucy Speaks" campaign, which has been ongoing as a result of massive public support (BTW, did PALE make a contribution? I did).

Can we please now return to the issue of the animals in China and forget about Australian farmers, Muslims and the RSPCA on this thread?

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 6 September 2008 7:36:10 PM
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dickie: << Yabby and Mad Dog are sick, demented, excuses for humanity, sycophants of the criminal elements in trade and traitors to their own creed. >>

However aggressively you rant and rave, it was a racist comment from Nicky. Given the content of your blather, it's not all that surprising that you don't acknowledge this obvious fact.

Nicky: << I will not withdraw from my comments about the Chinese, because the proof is self-evident and posted extensively on this thread. As the saying goes - "if the cap fits..." >>

Nicky, when you wrote "So back to the despicable Chinese ..", I observed that it is an inherently racist statement in such a way that you had the opportunity to modify your characterisation of "the Chinese" as "despicable". However, you choose to reinforce the negative stereotype of Chinese in general in your subsequent post.

It appears that the most prolific animal welfare activists at OLO are not only exclusively female, but most of them have posted racist comments here over time as well. Nicky's and dickie's are good examples. I find this intriguing - while I'd expect to find some general misanthropic tendencies, that they express antipathies and ignorance about non-Western societies and peoples so consistently is a bit of surprise.

Has anybody else noticed this?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 6 September 2008 7:59:16 PM
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Oops Nicky, me thinks that this press release from MLA, which speaks
for 45'000 farmers, might just prove you wrong:

snip

Farm Day, which took part over the last weekend in May, has grown from a Victorian-only event in 2006 to a national event with more than 1,000 families registering to take part this year. Farm Day involves city-based families being hosted by farming families in a bid to bridge the city-country divide.

The survey carried out for Meat & Livestock Australia, the major supporter of Farm Day, asked city and farming participants a series of questions about their Farm Day experience and perceptions of farmers.

The survey found:

86 percent of city participants agree that Australian farmers abide by the most stringent practices to produce the safest food in the world;
84 percent of city participants agree that farmers are committed to enhancing and protecting the environment;
93 percent of city participants agree that Australian farmers genuinely care for their animals’ health and welfare; and
99 percent of city participants agree that farmers are important to Australian society.
“The responses demonstrate that Farm Day is imparting some important messages about modern farming practices,” said David Palmer, Managing Director of Meat & Livestock Australia.

“When people see for themselves how a farmer operates it creates a much more memorable impression and this impression is important for the future of agriculture.”

The survey also found that 95 percent of city respondents enjoyed their Farm Day experience with 98 percent of city participants saying they’ll take part next year.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 6 September 2008 8:11:33 PM
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CJM, the semantics of the matter are that "not withdrawing" from my comment is not synonymous with "reinforcing" it. Please try to understand the difference. Also, the fact that these atrocities are carried out in China, as a matter of routine, by Chinese people, supports that comment. That does not make it racist, it is simply a commentary on the behaviour of the Chinese people involved - not the people as a race.

Perhaps, in order to make it absolutely clear for you, I should have suffixed it with the world "behaviour", since you are so intent in a completely literal interpretation, although I suspect that this has more to do with trying to discredit any comment condemning animal cruelty for whatever your personal agenda dictates. I don't know what that agenda is or the motivation behind it, is so won't comment further on that.

Yabby, if you were at all versed in research techniques (and I am somewhat specialized in research techniques), you would know that you can make a survey outcome be anything you want it to be by asking the questions which elicit the answers you want to hear, and by surveying the people most likely to give you those answers. It's a bit like your naive myopia in following the usual MLA mantra/s - they are just what you want to hear.

Nothing "extreme" or "fanatical" from this side of the fence, in fact, only statements of real circumstances.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 6 September 2008 11:18:59 PM
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*they are just what you want to hear.*

Ah Nicky, you mean just like the AA, Peta and other websites,
who preach what you true believers want to hear and will donate
your money to.

Your prejudice is rather obvious: If its not part of
your animal liberation campaign, then it just can't be true.

Extreme bias is what we are used to from you, nothing changes.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 6 September 2008 11:52:37 PM
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Yabby, likewise.

The key difference is that animal welfare groups do not conduct fraudulent reviews and surveys (such as that apology for "an opportunity for public comment" about pig farming), nor do they (as LiveCorp does) try to buy favours by "sponsoring" Animal Welfare Strategy conferences. Unfortunately, it was extremely well-represented by animal welfare bodies (as the Egg Corporation representative discovered to his embarassment).

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 7 September 2008 12:17:02 AM
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Hi Nicky

Morgan and Yabby, the embodiments of arrogance, have practised the art of duckshoving and masking the "real circumstances" as a strategy to distract posters from reality.

It is glaringly obvious that this pair, with vested interests and a propensity for unrestrained greed, regards the poisoning of humans, by unscrupulous Chinese manufacturers, as mere collateral damage.

Note the skillful evasion by this pair, of the information provided in my previous post, on China's toxic imports? This is indicative of those possessed with a malignant egophrenia, who believe they are above human morality.

Their ignorance even exceeds that of the people who wear the skins of butchered animals - or does it? A British scientific experiment revealed that a coat made from these animals required a staggering 7,965,800 British thermal units (BTU) - 66 times more energy than what is needed for a fake fur.

Additionally, fur apparel is treated with various chemical brighteners and dyes that can damage the environment and pose a hazard to human health.

As far back as 1992, the Dutch Advertising Standards Authority ruled that fur apparel advertised as “eco-logical” was improperly and misleadingly labeled. In the past the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) fined six firms $2.2 million for illegally generating, storing, transporting, and disposing of hazardous materials used to process fur pelts.

Fur-processing materials such as formaldehyde and chromium can cause respiratory problems and are listed by the EPA as possible carcinogens. Some fur processors have been charged with endangering workers by exposing them to hazardous materials.

And those charged were Western furriers. One shudders to think of the short and long term health impacts from wearing fur manufactured in China - or any other product for that matter.

And in July this year, "thousands of people who suffered severe allergic reactions after sitting on their sofas were victims of a toxic gas emitted by an anti-mould agent, a study has concluded." Two have died.

"Hospitals across northern Europe have treated thousands of patients with symptoms which appeared to range from skin cancer and chemical burns to severe eczema:"

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/consumer_goods/article4374669.ece
Posted by dickie, Sunday, 7 September 2008 12:46:59 AM
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CJ

"It appears that the most prolific animal welfare activists at OLO are not only exclusively female, but most of them have posted racist comments here over time as well. Nicky's and dickie's are good examples. I find this intriguing - while I'd expect to find some general misanthropic tendencies, that they express antipathies and ignorance about non-Western societies and peoples so consistently is a bit of surprise.

Has anybody else noticed this?"

I'm sure you've read far more of Nicky and Dickie's posts than I have CJ, but no, I can't say I've noticed this or certainly not as the consistent trend you seem to be implying.

I did think that Nicky's turn of phrase - "So back to the despicable Chinese .." - was an unfortunate choice of words. To me though it was more of a slip-up, than a deliberate racist slur. I knew she was referring to the behaviour, not the Chinese themselves.

I would need far more evidence to be convinced that either Nicky or Dicky habitually make racist comments. They are passionate in their beliefs and can both put the boot in at times, but I don't consider them racist.

Yabby, on the other hand, frequently makes sexist and patronizing remarks which I find far more offensive than anything Nicky or Dickie come out with.
Posted by Bronwyn, Sunday, 7 September 2008 12:49:45 AM
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(Back to the thread)= Fur and China

I suggested earlier perhaps, WSPA PETA made contact with operators supplying animal skins.

People with contacts to large fashion houses, - could possibly assist those using animals as raw material, to obtain large contracts that they would `not otherwise obtain if there were using dogs cats etc for fur`.

If we could provide them with the machinery and equipment + the alternative to manufacture, using other products, it might catch on.

Many of these people are very poor so possible it could look at as a humanitiran project also.

Spoken to people in China. One person is an Australian however living full time in China with quite good contacts to lawyers and some Gov officials.

He person has offered to help. The other people are Chinese and happy pay for a web site and assist regarding the lambs being tossed alive to lions.
( We wont be doing it before anybody suggests it having far too much already on our plate. However the offers there for anybody interested to ask for the email contacts.

Yabby

Re MLA- Where’s the survey btw?
Speaking of MLA, I am pretty sure they would provide some funding if any of the groups wanted to assist in promoting chilled meat in place of live.
Just imagine what would happen if all these people convincing one another they were contributing towards animal welfare – got out and competed against live exports.
What if they became so successful they had to approach the Minister to Immigration to allow the skilled workers in to be able to supply their products?
Wouldn’t that be dreadful for Australian farmers future not to mention the country itself. Dear me to value add and reopen our country towns.

Just as well, for you Yabbs, they are not seriously looking for alternatives.

here is what the ABA think of MLAs honesty btw

http://www.austbeef.com.au/Content.asp?regID=15403&id=73794
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 7 September 2008 1:29:35 AM
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*try to buy favours by "sponsoring" Animal Welfare Strategy conferences. *

Ah so the farmers put money on the table, to publicly discuss animal
welfare, as you lot are too tight it seems. That is wrong too!
You just don't even realise, how extremely biased you are Nicky,
just like the religious nuts, just a different religion that you
preach.

MLA is publicly accountable and elections are held. Your little
animal welfare groups do as they please are accountable to nobody
when it comes to some kind of honesty or truth and are their
figures publicly available? I doubt it, just any lot of feelgood
fanatics with a website can join in and publish virtually
anything.

Major organisations are still MLA and RSPCA, they matter. Frankly
the rest of you, simply don't.

*Morgan and Yabby, the embodiments of arrogance,*

More like self assured Dickie. Finally somebody who tells you as it
is, not your crapola PC correctness etc. So you try to shoot
the messenger, with tirades of abuse. Sorry dear, true believers
like yourself are a dime a dozen and little more then highly
amusing :)

*I can't say I've noticed this or certainly not as the consistent trend you seem to be implying.*

Of course there is a trend Bronwyn. Alot of these girls simply want
to bemother all these creatures, rather then accept that we humans
eat them. There is a real world out there, but some of them live
in their own little dreamworld, away with the fairies of fantasyland.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 7 September 2008 1:44:45 PM
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Yabby

"Of course there is a trend Bronwyn. Alot of these girls simply want
to bemother all these creatures, rather then accept that we humans
eat them. There is a real world out there, but some of them live
in their own little dreamworld, away with the fairies of fantasyland."

I was very specifically discussing racism - in direct response to CJ's question as to whether or not others thought, as he did, that Nicky and Dickie's comments were racist.

It would be helpful if you read my posts properly and debated the points raised, rather than simply using them as a jump off point for yet another of your personal attacks, which have now become so frequent and so predictable that they are completely destroying any credibility you once had.
Posted by Bronwyn, Sunday, 7 September 2008 2:35:58 PM
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Frankly Bronwyn, I really don't care, what touchy-feely posters
such as yourself, make of my posts. If you would prefer it, just
ignore them. I am here to make points of reason, some bog themselves
down with how things are said, others are free to refute the
substance of the arguments, if they wish to.

Perhaps you have missed a good deal of the NicknDick posts, but
these two have been insulting anyone who lives in the ME, Australian
farmers and now the Chinese, for years. If their racism is not
bleedingly obvious, well I can't help you dear.

Both preach from the Peter Singer school of animal liberation.
Thats fine, people believe whatever they will, but it would
be nice, if we finally had some honesty and separated animal
welfare from animal liberation.

AA was founded by Peter Singer and he was the first prez. So
what are they really preaching today? Why don't they just come
clean and admit it is animal liberation that they are really after,
animal welfare is simply a stepping stone. Or will AA, NicknDick
etc, denounce the Singer philosophies?

Of course they won't. So we have all this pretend nonsense going
on, its like extracting a tooth lol.

If animal liberation is what these two are about, then clearly
they are biased and unable to have an unbiased opinion about
agriculture, for it goes against their philosophy.

I don't play these silly little games. I say what I think, it
upsets some, others will understand the substance of my argument.

These two owe their education and standard of living to agriculture,
for were it not for farming, they would have grown up in a banana
republic. I doubt if either paid Hecs fees, they are too old
for that. Its about time they at least acknowledged how well
farming has served them as an industry, not this nonsense that
they have posted.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 7 September 2008 3:14:33 PM
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Bronwyn, along with his sexist insults, Yabby also makes assumptions about matters he knows absolutely nothing about. I certainly have paid HECS fees of many, many thousands of dollars, and agriculture has contributed nothing to my education or lifestyle. In fact, agriculture in this country these days doesn't contribute to all that much at all, with employment and GDP in that sector steadily declining (see ABS statistics at www.liveexportshame.com)

Why would I denounce the philosophies of Peter Singer as a whole moral standpoint? What Yabby and CJ Morgan cannot get their heads around is that no-one has condemned ALL Australian farmers, ALL Muslims or ALL Chinese. What we do condemn is the gross animal abuse that is endemic in the behaviours of all those groups, however. Yabby's responses to that are totally without intellectual discernment, and his only recourse is to insults on a religious or sexist basis. CJ Morgan, having no other sound argument to offer, plays the racist card. Those sorts of debating techniques, for want of a better description, are fundamentally flawed and unsustainable.

Did Yabby have credibility at some point? I must have missed that.

As for live animals being thrown to predators in Chinese zoos as has been so well described in the reports I have posted here, that would need to be captured on videotape and the film sent to PETA , I would suggest.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 7 September 2008 5:47:14 PM
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On behalf of PALE in conjunction with RSPCA QLD we would like to wish all dads a happy fathers day.


By the time a man realizes that maybe his father was right, he usually has a son who thinks he's wrong.
Charles Wadworth

3. Ruth E. Renkel
Sometimes the poorest man leaves his children the richest inheritance.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 7 September 2008 6:12:46 PM
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Bronwyn, while I understand your apologetics for the loopy animal rights sorority, I fear your objectivity is clouded.

If you care to, check out the posting histories of dickie, Nicky, PALE&IF et al. I suggest there is a common pattern in their posts to OLO over time of denigrating non-Western consumers of animal products, generally along the lines that they are in general 'barbarians' or 'despicable' etc because they don't adhere to middle-class Western ideas of animal welfare.

To futher expand my working hypothesis, perhaps some of our regular animal rights zealots could answer this question:

Do you have any (human) children?

I ask this because I hypothesise that they probably don't.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 7 September 2008 10:09:07 PM
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Bronwyn

Thank you for those very rational deductions on Yabby and Morgan's contribution to the topic on this thread.

It gets a bit lonely here when one must endure two clowns who constantly infiltrate threads on animal welfare, specifically to defend the actions of animal abusers - one tottering back and forth on this forum with a racist billboard front and back and the other - well enough said!

A quick perusal of Yabby's numerous posts reveals a total failure to address the topic and no matter which topic is at hand, continues to subject others to a stifling tirade of irrelevant and unrestrained bilge.

As Lord Devlin, one of the great British judges of the last century said:

"Not everything is to be tolerated. No society can do without
intolerance, indignation, and disgust, they are the forces behind the
moral law, and indeed it can be argued that if they or something
like them are not present, the feelings of a society cannot be
weighty enough to deprive the individual of freedom of choice.

"I suppose that there is hardly anyone nowadays who would not be
disgusted by the thought of deliberate cruelty to animals. No one
proposes to relegate that or any other form of sadism to the realm
of private morality or to allow it to be practised in public or
private."

And yet this cabal, who place their offspring in nests within our halls of parliament, would have you believe that Jack the Ripper was a gentle soul. Such is the brutal mentality of these sadistic executioners!

Cheers for now.
Posted by dickie, Sunday, 7 September 2008 10:16:29 PM
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"Do you have any (human) children?

"I ask this because I hypothesise that they probably don't." (Morgan)

I am a Mother several times over and I have been a foster Mother to three other children.

However, as per usual, you are completely off topic. What has maternalism to do with animal cruelty or human cruelty for that matter?

So hypothesise away Mad Dog. You really should seek treatment for that rabies affliction!
Posted by dickie, Sunday, 7 September 2008 10:25:26 PM
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CJ Morgan, please do not suggest that I have the slightest affiliation, association or similarity with PALE. I have made it more than clear that nothing could be further from the truth.

Nor is it a matter of "middle class Western ideas of animal welfare", unless you find the material on this and other threads not to be illustrative of gross animal abuse and egregious cruelty. Whether these abusers are members of non-Western "users of animal products is not particularly relevant to a discussion about animal cruelty, but you and your cohorts are inordinately keen to tell us all about practiced inflicted upon "livestock" in Australia, so cruelty is not necessarily exclusive. It is, however, clearly far more prevalent, egregious and apparently enjoyed as entertainment in those cultures. That is simply an evidence-based comment.

Nor is whether or not I have "human" children remotely relevant to this discussion, and quite frankly, it is none of your business. Trying to patronize any of us on such a frivolous and personal basis is hardly rational debate, and is, also quite frankly, insulting.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 7 September 2008 10:30:57 PM
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*As Lord Devlin said:*

Dickie dear, frankly I don't care what some British lord said. I care
about what I think and why. Now if it is beyond you to reason and
you need to parrot out others opinions, well okay, but I am beyond
that.

*who place their offspring in nests within our halls of parliament*

Hehe, you are clearly pissed off by the WA election results :)
People voted for those candidates and yes, it is fair enough that
25% of mining royalties be spent in the country, where that 100%
of that wealth is generated. Why should you city slickers cream
it all for yourselves? Without us, you would be knackered.

Nicky, of course your posts are racist! Perhaps you forget, what
you posted last week and the week before. You even object to third
world employees working on sheep ships, due to nothing but their
country of birth. Never mind that they might be trained, never mind
their individual talents and abilities. Fact is, you look down
at others from various countries based purely on race. Racist you
are!

Fact is that your posts are touchy-feely, blow with the wind, depending
on the correspondant and your changing opinion. One
minute you and Dickie preach about the evils of farming and making
a profit from livestock, next minute PF is ok after all, despite
being a farmer, generating a profit from livestock.

Now either you have a consistent philosophy or you don't! Either
you are preaching animal liberation ala Singer, or you are not.
Make up your mind. Just blowing in the wind as you do, is more
about what you feel, not about what you think, or your ability to
reason.

What we have so far from you, is a confused, mumbo jumbo contraditing
set of beliefs, depending on what time of day it is. All heart and
no brains, basically.

As far as insults go, nothing should insult you. You dish them
out daily, if you can't take them back, then stop posting
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 7 September 2008 11:25:10 PM
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CJ Morgan

You are well aware pale work with Muslim leaders+ in fact we share not only a web page with them but a close working arrangment.
I know you are aware of this because for memory you commented on the site.
Considering this is the only organisation in Australia working so close with Muslim Leaders of Australia- be it Animal Welfare or anything else your comments are just plain stupid and we are hardly racist I would suggest.

BUT if somebody does the wrong thing - be it the Head Muslim Leader or the Head Animal Welfare Leader of Australia we WILL and DO speak out!
Thats not racist its HONEST.

We are not an Animal Liberation group. We certainly do not follow the same ideas as the other poster you tried to link us with.

RSPCA are a main stream organisation that do not have a problem with people eating meat. They 'do require' animals be slaughtered as close to place of origen as possible.

There is a big difference between Animal Liberation activists and Animal Welfare Organisations.


I am sure you are well aware of the different views held between PETA and PALE and RSPCA.

Despite that there is one thing that unites EVERYBODY. Its the outrage by the way our Australian Animals are treated in the intensive farming and live export industry.


As for any other comments I have made in the past about 'what ever person' that would be made in with a 'person' in mind - "Not a religion or place of birth."




As for asking the lady if she has any children.=

"How dare you ask her such a personal question. "Its none of your business.
Its off post and out of order.



Your commentss to most women are rude or very crude and personal comments at that.




Either debate Animal Welfare - fur china or any Animal Welfare issue or leave the thread I would suggest to you.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 8 September 2008 12:13:56 AM
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CJ! You are definitely too smart for own good. SMILE.

EVO
Posted by EVO, Monday, 8 September 2008 1:53:29 AM
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Dickie, what made you think that Yabby would have the slightest regard for what one of the greatest legal minds the world has known would have to say? If it is not within his personal creed of cruelty, of course he will ridicule it. Beyond that, I'm staying with my earlier decision and not even bothering to debate his repetitive rubbish.

As for CJ Morgan (and Yabby) personal insults, and the racist, sexist cards are the ones to play when you have nowhere to go and no argument of substance to advance.

For once, I agree with PALE. If you can't stay on the topic - the Chinese fur industry (and associated other animal atrocities in China), then start one on which you can indulge your proclivities for animal cruelty.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 8 September 2008 8:09:57 PM
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My, I pressed a few buttons there, didn't I? You lot would make a good little Honours project for a Psych student - s/he could run your posting histories through a text analysis program and come up with all sorts of interesting correlations, I reckon.

However, I will leave you to it. I'll just pop back next time one of you makes another egregiously racist or otherwise offensive comment, if I can be bothered.

Keep up the good work.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 8 September 2008 8:23:30 PM
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*You lot would make a good little Honours project for a Psych student*

CJ, you have hit the nail on the head - congratulations!
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 8 September 2008 8:35:27 PM
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Morgan

As I know you are reading this- I just wanted to that anything I said at the time was 'no different' to what they are saying themselves!
I just said it first.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/wireless/story/0,22282,2702-24309732,00.html

Its hard enough to try to get something done without all these personal comments. TBO I am sick to death of "everybody" fighting and argueing.
While all this goes on its the animals that suffer!

I would like to go back and address a comment I made to the girls a few posts back.
The reason I said it was unhelpful to call the Chinese names was because you will always have people trying to turn that against you.

Yabby said
*One
minute you and Dickie preach about the evils of farming and making
a profit from livestock, next minute PF is ok after all, despite
being a farmer, generating a profit from livestock.*

Yabby

I think it is very much to their credit they are listening to PF.
You should encourage that- dont you think.?

If we could have more animal welfare minded people involved with good farmers that would be the best outcome for farmer and animal.

We have a wonderful friend and member of pale who is a retired Judge from US and a white witch:)

My point is all of us have ways of handling the barbric cruelty we see inflicted on our most innocent- our animals.

Has anybody contacted WSPA or PETA about the lambs being tossed to the lions.

I was lisenting to Elders recording today while waiting on the line. a Their advertsing of themselves as world wide Animal Welfare leaders was # .

Anyway I thought the high profile Elders might help stop the lambs being tossed to lions.

Lets face it it wouldnt do their reputation any harm.

How about a sheep farmer writing and requesting their help.

Would you consider that Yabby?

Do you think Elders would write to the Zoo if the public asked?

I know they dont give a toss but perbhaps they may see it as good PR.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 8 September 2008 10:45:56 PM
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These practices in China would not be isolated to one zoo, just as the fur and meat markets are not isolated. I have sent the information now to both WSPA and PETA via their websites. I think both would probably be aware of all this but it doesn't hurt to reinforce it.

I think a psychologist - or more specifically a psychiatrist - would be interested in the pathology that drives the proponents of animal cruelty. For those who do not know the distinction, psychology is the study of the mind and psychiatry is the study of the diseased mind. There have been numerous studies into, for example, the parallels between animal and human abuse.

I have not condemned all farmers (evidenced by my respect for PF and her achievements); only those who are gratuitously cruel, those being (most specifically) intensive chicken, battery hen and pig farmers and those who breed animals for the live export trade in the full knowledge of the fate to which they are sending them in the name of a few more dollars. I might add to that farmers who mutilate their "production" animals without pain relief, but not their cats or dogs (or do they?)

I don't know how many more ways I can say that. How clear and simple does it need to be in order that it is not beyond the intellectual capacity of those whose only response to animal welfare concerns is cheap insults?

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 8 September 2008 11:44:54 PM
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dickie
If your still around Hugh is the chair person for WSPA.

Apart from that there is nothing more than I can say regarding China. We have no control there and have posted a few suggestions- such as asking sea world and RSPCA WSPA to address them regarding their zoos.

I will reply to a comment made by Yabby a few threads up however regarding the MLA in Australia.

Yabby Regardless of your claims that everybody is crazy or dreaming when they pass comment on MLA this remains a fact. Here is somthing on just one of the industries involved.
http://www.kangaroo-protection-coalition.com/kangaroos-hoser.html


To say they are not dishonest you would have to be very naive.( Perhaps you are for all i know)
Now Yabby that doesnt mean either that every person working at MLA are dodgey either.

You have always said- Ah Gertrude You dont know what you are talking about- dream on. I point out to you if you have ever read the web page encouraging Aussie farmers you would have seen two inderpendant lawyers both of which come from meat industry backgrounds. As well the X President of the AMIEU and people in charge of Halal meat accreditations.

So are they all mad, crazy as well Yabby.?


"Questions to David Palmer Managing Director of MLA by Brad Bellinger"

We read in the MLA Annual Report that $81,779 was paid to Ernst and Young for their NLIS forensic investigation into the Farm Online Rort. At the time we were told that we could see this Report in the matter, when can we see it?

Answer: The MLA has met the corporation guidelines into the investigation into the Poll Rort and you cannot believe everything you read.

Question to David Palmer by Graeme Acton

Could the MLA provide details of the amount of levy money given to private companies for joint venture projects etc?

Answer: ‘Commercial –in- Confidence’ prevents us from doing so.

This is outragous Yabby its as simple as that.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 9 September 2008 6:31:03 AM
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Apart from Bronwyn, has everyone on this thread gone completely bonkers?

Yabby: paints picture of sheep gamboling happily in meadows before being crammed nose to arse on export ships.

CJ Morgan, or should that be Darth Morgan? Have you gone completely over to the dark side? Please explain your question asking whether the animal welfare activists on this thread are mothers. Just what is your point? Inquiring minds want to know.

Both Yabby and CJ – whether more women than men support a cause is entirely moot. Or are you suggesting that if more women are concerned then the issue is somehow ‘less important’? Inquiring minds want clarification on this also.

PALE
I have a life outside of OLO and can’t be expected to respond immediately to your every request.

Nicky and Dickie – I don’t think you are racist, BUT, choice of words could be a little better. There are many activist groups in China, such as:

China Small Animal Protection Association:
“Chinese animal rights activists welcomed a proposed European Union ban on imports of dog and cat fur, saying Tuesday it would pressure the Beijing government to enact better legal protections for animals, while the government denied torture and cruelty are widespread”

http://bigcatnews.blogspot.com/2006/11/chinas-animal-rights-activists-welcome.html

Shanghai Animal Protection Association:
“Six volunteers from the Shanghai Animal Protection Association confronted cat dealers in Jiaxing, Zhejiang Province, and spent a day and a night trying to rescue about 1,500 cats.”

http://www.chinaherald.net/2008/09/shanghai-animal-right-activists-save.html

For the record, I am not a vegan, I believe animals raised for human use should be treated as humanely as possible, that the entire animal should be utilised: meat, hide etc. That breeding animals for only their fur is wasteful and abhorrent. And that as many men as women care about animal welfare, but none of them are called ‘Yabby’.
Posted by Fractelle, Tuesday, 9 September 2008 8:36:21 AM
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*I have not condemned all farmers (evidenced by my respect for PF and her achievements)*

Ah, I just love this touchy-feely, make it up as you go along
philosophy stuff :) Nicky, you forget that you have a long posting
history.

It seems that according to you, its now ok for PF to send her piglets
to market and be eaten, but if I send my lambs to market, "the
poor dears have hardly had a life"

If PF hogties a sheep and carts it home for treatment, presumably
that is ok too, but if I hogtie a sheep or the Arabs hogtie a
sheep, we must be evil!

Just a few days ago we heard about the evils of using the word
"livestock".

The list goes on. Fact is Nicky, you blow with the wind and depending
on which thread that you are posting on and who you are trying to
bluff this particular time.

Go back in your history and see how many times you have preached
about the evils of livestock farming for profit. All livestock
farmers were included, for as you well know, this is what Singer
and Animal liberation are all about. Are you now going to deny
that you support the philosophies of animal liberation?

Perhaps to blow with the wind is what they taught you to do in
Political Science, which is your speciality. Politicians do it
all the time.

The only sheep bred specifically for the live trade would be some
Damaras and a few Awassis. Farmers sell to a market, which is
often decided 5 minutes before they sell. Anyone is free to buy
the rest of those livestock and slaughter them here. You clearly
don't even understand basic agricultural market function.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 9 September 2008 9:56:31 AM
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Fractelle

good post.

We were not demanding- I am sorry you took it that way. You didn’t answer the question BTW.

Regarding Yabby`s last few posts, (despite knowing, I will be unpopular,) he is correct.

. People need to be honest about their real intentions and not change horse mid stream.



Our approach to improve Animal Welfare and phase out live exports is totally different to anything that has been presented in the last twenty years. We know that.

We only ask everybody to consider it’s our attempt to make a difference.

We do believe that we need some hard headed tough people involved within the industry. Hungry people with a desire to 'take control' of the meat industry by cashing in on the enormous world wide publicity against the cruel live trade.

We are concerned by the way in which animal welfare is presented in general.

Animal liberation people should not run Animal Welfare. No wait,hear me out. Pls.

Nobody should run it. It should be 50 50 made up by ALL people.

Animal welfare should not be headed by the peak organizations coming from a vegetarian point of view.

Why? Because Australia is not a vegetarian country.

I suspect it was set up this way from day one- so it could always be put down to- Those extremists by the Government and the media.

This would not have been the leaders intentions.

However you ALL need to know that the agreement for the first ever animal welfare enquiry- was made under the promise it would only ever be presented from the one angle of vegetarians.

That set a precedent that these well intended people at the time probably didn’t even pick up on.

We say to the Australian Government we are NOT vegetarian or extreme. We represent the 98*% of meat eaters who demand humane practices from paddock to plate.

We say to the Government get your MLA and Austrade people out inviting ME investors to reopen abattoirs in conjunction with Farmers at grass root levels.

Ban Live Exports
People In Conjunction with RSPCA QL
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 9 September 2008 9:11:24 PM
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Fractelle, nice to see you back.

Sadly, this thread has now become so corrupted by the Yabby/CJ Morgan/PALE agenda that there is no point persevering. I have already said that I'm not entering any more repetitive arguments with Yabby, dealing with the claptrap he repeats ad nauseum, nor am I prepared to tolerate any more sexist/religious/racist - or for that matter rubbish about animal liberation versus welfare and vegetarian innuendo, which is the hidden agenda for defending current (abysmal) practice in Australia and overseas.

This thread was about practices in China; the zoos, the fur trade and the dog and cat meat trade. It was never intended to be yet another soapbox for PALE to discredit other organizations, and push its anti-vegetarian agenda and slaughterhouse venture, as it does with each and every thread. GIVE IT A REST, PALE, for Heavens sake!

Nor was it intended for Yabby to use as a soapbox for his "poor Australian farmer" agenda.

Unfortunately, this has gone the same way as all other well-intended threads devoted to ending animal cruelty. The only question remaining is whether it is ever worth even discussing, because they all go the same way. As is usual, everyone but PALE, Yabby and CJ Morgan remain, with their unsustainable propaganda, which mostly only and Dickie and I remain to counter (apart from thanks to PF, Fractelle and Bronwyn). Frankly, I am bored with even trying. I think I'll move to a forum elsewhere, where there may be people capable of original thought.

I've provided the information I wanted to provide on this, and hopefully, for those who do care about egregious animal abuse, some enlightenment.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 9 September 2008 11:03:53 PM
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Nicky dear, what a great way of avoiding answering those hard
questions! Thats fine, its much as I expected.

Don't forget to close the door behind you, thanks.

Bye bye :)
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 9 September 2008 11:34:01 PM
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Fractelle,dickie,Bronwyn, Suzzanne

I think it was a fair question by the farmer.


Are you holding your views from the main stream point of view.
Or do you all think "animals should not be killed at all for meat clothes etc.
Are you followers of the peak bodies such as Peter Singers Animal liberation.
Or would you agreee with the RSPCA who say for animals are to be slaughtered as close to origen as possible.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 10 September 2008 6:59:47 AM
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PALE

If you had read my posts to this forum you would have the answers to your questions and know my views on slaughter, the fur trade and export.

Cheers to all.
Posted by Fractelle, Wednesday, 10 September 2008 9:32:25 AM
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Dear Nicky

I reiterate my thanks for bringing to our attention, the atrocities committed on animals by the fur trade in China. While I find the wearing of animal skins offensive, I was unaware of the abominable methods these people use to ply their trade.

I am certain other posters are also better informed – thanks to your efforts, so despite the false information passed off here by the obstructionists and used to deliberately prevent the proper welfare of defenceless animals, I would say: “Job well done Nicky.”

One need not be a psychiatrist to assess how many vipers are in Yabby’s head – a venal and lonely misfit (who declares he was abandoned by his spouse decades ago) babbling on about the evils of vegetarianism, even on totally irrelevant threads.

One thread comes to mind – Foxy’s “Older women are dating younger men - and the men are loving it,” where he declares:

“Oh I carry no baggage lol. The thread was going quite
well until along came Dickie, clearly a violent old
battle-axe! When her hatred for meat eating males
gets out of line, I tend to even the score. Clearly
its her baggage that is the problem.”

Where is the relevance to the subject Foxy raised? This is but one of the malicious and false statements Yabby mischievously peddles as being true since my partner and I are meat eaters – a well known fact on this forum. These are the depths to which this unconscionable misfit will descend.

That he expresses hatred for women by describing them as “touch-feely” and “all heart and no brains” is cause for alarm. That he expresses disdain for Nicky’s academic achievements reveals a simpleton and a vicious misogynist to boot, out of his depth and incapable of rational debate.

The threads this menacing poster has corrupted and abused, urgently requires Graham Young’s attention.

PALE

Your last post says it all about you. Your offensive interrogation of others has nothing to do with the issue of tortured animals in China. Hang your head in shame girl.
Posted by dickie, Wednesday, 10 September 2008 12:08:14 PM
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Dickie dear, thanks for telling me that I was abandoned, for its
the first that I have heard of it! Clearly you know more about
things that happened in my life, then I do :) BTW are you busy
smoking strange substances in your retirement home?

Nobody is stopping anyone from discussion animal welfare in China.

But when the NicknDick tag team attack farmers yet once again,
it is yet once again time to set the record straight. Your hatred
for farmers is dotted right through your OLO history. Enough is
enough!

Touchy-feely is great for motherhood, but not up to standard, when
it comes to educated discussion about agriculture and livestock.
We grow them to be eaten, not to bemother them, thats the reality
of it.

Your very notion, that a vet should be called, every time a farmer
tails some lambs, is patently ridiculous! It shows your ignorance
about farming, agricultural economics, the availability of vets,
the list goes on.

I have stated before, if society should want farmers to administer
pain relief when tailing lambs, society is free to make available,
at an affordable price, the substances required, for farmers to
administer. Farmers don't make the law, farmers don't make
vetinary chemicals, they use what is available at the time.

As we have seen with Trisolfen, whose use this year has increased
by something like 230%, farmers use these products, if they
are available, at their expense, for the benefit of their animals.

Animal welfare is in farmers interests, if livestock don't thrive,
neither to farmers. But no, we don't bemother them as you would
wish, we grow them for food. Keep your touchy feely for your
kids. We need qualified people do comment about farming, not
motherly types such as yourself, who simply don't understand the
industry.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 10 September 2008 2:50:51 PM
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dickie,
Fiddle Sticks
Lets go back shall we. Now lets see, pale suggested someone contact Sea world ,and ask them nicely, would they help because they have been doing a great deal of work quietly with China to improve zoos ( there was no comment from anybody)

Then we suggested that WSPA Or RSPCA could poosible invite China to have a RSPCA Branch in China( There was no comment from you or anybody else)

I told you all we had placed two calls to China and had a return call from a person with contacts in China offering to help( There was no comment again)

Then We posted about the CHINESE people " shock horror" Yes Chinese people who offered to pay for a web site and work with anybody would wanted to help( No comment from anybody again)

The next suggestion was that perhaps PETA or another organisation could find alternative big contracts and provide machinery for fake fur ( No comment again.)

Not one of you have come up with any sensible ideas OR were prepared to take up the Chinese peoples offer.

Yabby also suggested RSPCA could perhaps encourage China to open up a branch there only to bre hailed with abuse.

So Yabby and PALE were the only ones to make any sensible suggestions.
What IS your idea on helping the Animals in China NicknDick?

Until you come up with something dont critisie us and take your merry band of libbers with you who come in here for one reason- The gang up on pale.
This reminds me of Peter Singer telling me to close Pale and send my money and my friends to Animals Australia!

Would you like me to post his email?( Copy)
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 10 September 2008 6:50:37 PM
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Dickie, thanks for your kind words. It's absolutely clear that PALE, lost in its delusions and conspiracy theories, has not only publicly aligned itself to live exports by its now stated allegiance to the Yabbys of the world, and also that it has not bothered to read the responses both you and I posted in response to its "suggestions". I won't even bother with the apparent identity crises - perhaps it's something they drink or smoke in the little house on the Gold Coast.

For the record, I pointed out that the business of SeaWorld is to keep marine animals in captivity, and that farmed bears in China cannot really be described as marine animals - therefore any thought of a meaningful contribution from SeaWorld comes from fantasyland.

I also stated that I had contacted both PETA and WSPA via their websites in this context, and made my views clear on what I thought a contribution from the RSPCA would be.

Fractelle, how very remiss of you not to respond to PALE's demands with instant attention!

Dickie, if I have been able to note that you are not a vegetarian, perhaps basic comprehension skills are lacking in the PALE/CJ Morgan/Yabby dreamworld. If you speak up about animal cruelty, obviously you have to be a vegetarian, in their limited thought processes.

This thread was never intended to discuss Australian farming practices, but typically, PALE, Yabby and CJ Morgan corrupted it, thus ruining the information provided that really should be out there.

But so what? If they, and PALE, can destroy anything meaningful for no other reason than their rantings, it's hardly surprising that very few persevere with them.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 10 September 2008 7:10:51 PM
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Furthermore, PALE, if you approached Peter Singer as you approach everyone else, quite frankly the best thing you could have done for animals was to take his advice.

You have provided NO evidence of having ever achieved ANYTHING for animal welfare in this country. Just fantasy stuff about "working with Muslim Leaders". Doing what, precisely? They can't even stop the infighting between themselves, and nor can the RSPCA (which states that its relationship with PALE is of no more significance than its relationship with any other animal welfare group, including ALQ, for example).

Where did that total claptrap come from about an animal welfare enquiry being from the "one angle of vegetarians"? You really need to get a grip on reality.

Yabby, if you want to discuss the egregious cruelty to animals in China, then do so on this thread - don't fill it with your usual sexist, dogmatic repetitive claptrap. If you want to just continue to argue your usual rubbish, which, like that of PALE, we have seen SO OFTEN, start an appropriate thread to do so. This one isn't it.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 10 September 2008 7:22:42 PM
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*Where did that total...

I am going to break a golden Rule by answering -
From the Co founder of Animal Liberation.

Would you like me to post that too? (Copy)

One of our lawyers wrote to Peter Singer (just an email). He didn’t say he was a lawyer because he didn’t want him to feel intimidated.

The reply was arrogant, rude and insulting.



As far as our work with farmers and Muslim leaders, may I suggest none of you were interested before- So why now?

Several accreditations have been granted diverting live to chilled FYI Actually many.

Don’t you read the papers?

As for inta fighting you lot have 20 years of history. Even RSPCA Dr Wirth said it was THE major problem. "He said you cant talk to these people because they think they walk on a higher moral ground"


Your leader In My opinion would rather do nothing for animals 'if' it meant she didn’t get the credit in my opinion- and others, a well known fact.

- That alone with political aspirations+ egos - (Of course that is my opinion.) and others.

Your little agenda of trailing pale into OLO is clear to anybody who has read these threads.

As for RSPCA QLD I repeat we work in Conjunction with them on Live Exports Only.

AL and RSPCA QLD PALE all work for the animals only.
You should try it sometime.

RSPCA QLD is clearly the leaders in Animal Welfare In this country.

There have many projects and we are very proud of our CEO.

However none of it would be possibly if everybody didn’t put the animals first and work together.

BTW what have YOU done to help the animals??

Move away from your senior uni friends and pack a swag and head for the bush.

You ALL do.

Learn something about `livestock` and the industry, then put together a programe to make a difference for the animals like pale has.
You twenty years before us to do it?



So much for these bright uni students. Dumb and dumber.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 10 September 2008 8:24:20 PM
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Oops Nicky, clearly not a girl of your word! About leaving,
you clearly missed us :) So predictable is Nicky.

If you go back to the start of this thread, you will notice that
I hardly posted. Obsessed as you are, by the 26th August you
could not help yourself and had to start writing insulting posts.

Nicky dear, I am not a quiet little petal, if people go out of their
way to insult me. Clearly you are unable to stick to the topics
of your own threads, even less capable of keeping your word!

The fact that some women are extremely maternal is not sexism,
its biology 101. Political science does not teach you that I a
afraid, but look it up.

Given the fact that you have made a huge attempt to insult farmers,
insult qualfied agriculture industry people and promote your
vegan propaganda on OLO, its only fair enough that somebody
like myself, who is informed about agriculture, sets the record
straight.

Animal liberation and animal welfare are two separate issues.
You clearly still do not understand the difference.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 10 September 2008 9:20:01 PM
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Yabby

As we seem unable to solve the problems for Animals In China- + knowing your interest in ships, we thought we could at least solve your 'worm problems 'in your old age:)
Here you go Yabbs
http://bettsgarden.com/CruiseShipHome.html
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 10 September 2008 10:05:52 PM
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Good heavens, talk about the lunatics taking over the asylum.

PALE, in fact I do read the newspapers which is probably why I know that any slaugherhouse accreditations had nothing to do with PALE. Halal accreditation happens through a government agency not a madhouse on the Gold Coast occupied by multiple personalities.

I have no idea who the "Co-Founder of AL" is, but as I said - the best favour you could have done Australian animals would have been to take their advice. Go ahead - post whatever you claim was "insulting" - I'd suggest it was more likely to be factual. You have made no material contribution yourself/ves.

It is not worth even discussing Wirthless' contribution to the animal welfare debate.

As for Yabby, I have stated my case, and simply can't be bothered with the crass stupidity any longer..

Dickie, what do you reckon?

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 10 September 2008 11:35:10 PM
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Escape while you can Nicky. That pile of rubble - Farmer Ugh's still on heat and warbling like an opera diva though the Bush Telegraph has just advised he's now practising safe sex. He's painting the legs of the sheep that kick.

And I've just heard PALE went into a bank to withdraw fifty bucks. For security purposes the cashier asked her if she could identify herself.

She opened her handbag and took out a small mirror, looked into it and said, "Yes, it's me all right."

So either flee now Nicky or call the wardens in the white coats - tell 'em to bring the anti-psychotic pills!

I'm outa here.

Ciao and safe passage!
Posted by dickie, Thursday, 11 September 2008 1:50:54 AM
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Me too. Unless I get SO bored for the odd five minutes I read more of the lunatic rantings.

And the same to you, Dickie. Catch up on another thread, hopefully.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 11 September 2008 2:05:25 AM
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Most will have seen a change in my posting habits.
I stay away from animal rights threads.
Yes I read them, and yes I cringed at the story about those half dead dogs.
But how can anyone take this thread seriously?
At least 4 times someone called for the moderator to intervene.
Almost I will tell dad stuff.
And while it is no secret I have issues with threats and insults ,some who are complaining about them are nearly doing the same.
Sorry I truly do not think yabby is always right but he is not sexist ,just a typical Aussie bush male.
Dickie you do let down a bit yourself, I read the whole thread every post but be fair re read it please.
Nicky you do not leave the forum you have much to contribute but in time you may find you can not plant spuds and expect to harvest tomatoes.
Some only hear the sound of their own voice.
If I was the moderator I might well pretend we all are some one Else's kids.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 11 September 2008 5:24:12 AM
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Ah Belly – how charitable of you to assist Graham in moderating these threads. I trust you will also give them a serve over at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=7864&page=0 for the insults there are in full swing, or are you selectively attacking those who wish to defend animals?

Unfortunately, in your recent self-appointed deputy-moderator role, you have failed to observe that Yabby is completely off-topic. The title of this thread "Why fur is never cool" is not the subject of Yabby’s posts. Indeed not, for this drivelling windbag persists in banging on about live exports, “touchy feely’ crap (sexist), Australian farmers and a myriad of other irrelevant and stupefying swill.

Perhaps you can direct us to where this poster has entered into proper debate or would you prefer to adhere to your previous statements on:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1666&page=0#32390:

“Almost every post from yabby speaks for me. “ (Belly)

“Still hold the view live exports will be with us forever and is not evil.” (Belly)

Or perhaps you have gathered sufficient integrity to apologise for a previous outrageous fallacy:

“I hope I can get some latitude to reply to Dickie without childlike threats of legal action.” (Belly)

So here you are again, not to debate, but to defend Yabby when you declare:

“Sorry I truly do not think yabby is always right but he is not sexist ,just a typical Aussie bush male.”

Sorry too Belly for I crusade for defenceless animals which Yabby and the rest of the greedy capitalistic sadists torture for profit. I crusade to expose the predatory and avaricious humans you support and defend, whilst you hypocritically wear your union hat and your beloved leader resumes exporting defenceless animals to the Egyptian barbarians.

You are clearly not here to object to animal cruelty but to promote it.

You, like I, remain free to give an opinion even though you debate by deception and obfuscation.

Do not take the moral high ground by criticising my rudeness, whilst you cover for the sadists and their abominable behaviour, with your snout up their anus.

Enjoy the video and the fruits of your "labor" Belly.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:K4F0cbkrM_4J:www.celsias.com/article/cruelty-video-prompts-recall-of-143-million-pounds/+humane+society+cattle+cruelty+pigs+video&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=au&lr=lang_en
Posted by dickie, Thursday, 11 September 2008 8:28:15 PM
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On a totally frivolous note (and since PALE has posted that seriously bizarre fathers' day message and some rubbish about cruise liners totally from left field), Belly, if you don't find the rubbish Yabby goes on with to be irrelevant, sexist and offensive, it suddenly becomes clear why one of the lower quality commercial television networks had to come up with an awful reality TV program "The Farmer Wants a Wife".

It would have to be the only way these morons would be able to attract a woman with more than half a brain if that's the sort of behaviour they would be expected to live with.

Having said that - I respect, as always, your right to disagree with me!
Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 12 September 2008 12:44:53 AM
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Ah wasted my time, but I tried I even tried to ignore the elephant in the corner.
Yes Nicky I some times agree with some things you say.
Dickie, almost never do we agree, yet I hold no malce toward you, I honestly totally believe Yabby is a standard issue Aussie bush bloke.
And I know beyond doubt he is trying to tell it like it is.
Nicky once I was slapped over the wrist for flaming you, my target was not you, but I except it.
You will change nothing by debating some.
If anyone, any poster did not feel sick at the story about those dogs I would be surprised and hurt.
But do what I did some time ago, re read the threads you take part in, each of us should read our own posts.
I am an activist trying to sell something some do not want to buy so are both of you.
Do not scream at me Dickie if I refuse to listen, the great crime you see in live experts is no crime to the great majority of us.
And if you review your insults you will find only one poster can match you and its not yabby
Posted by Belly, Friday, 12 September 2008 6:24:39 AM
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Belly
You old son of a gun, what are you up to now. You havent come looking for a 'beef' up I trust:)
Ah, Belly but we do miss you in these threads. The crew still ask hows belly- true.

Fancy foot work might land you in the cow poo or stood on by the elephant so be careful old buddy old mate:)

You also misunderstood my shirt joke ( Which you took great offense at) It wasnt aimed at you- 'Pink Shirts' belly 'think'.
It was a shot at the democrates but never mind that now.

I thought your comments were 'very good'. Whether or not they were made in the interests of animal welfare is another thing.




Polycarp, Banjo IamJoseph Yabby, CJ Morgan, , Col Rouge, Yabby, Belly

The above posters are all male.
We see nothing wrong and in fact good manners to acknowledge their special day of the year after exchanging comments on a forum for weeks, months.

As well its known that some like Yabby do have a SOH.
The ship post was clever and amusing .

Surley its clear to all if you read the posts 'as advised' there is one person on the forum who attacks our organisation everything each and every time she posts.

In fact I can tell you that is THE reason she joined the forum to help her hero`s.

For those who dont know there is a bid to take over RSPCA by Animal Libbers. We support the RSPCA so of course were are the enermy. That along with working supporting farmers makes us evil in their eyes.

As for fur from China or any other Animal Welfare problem we can only fix it by working with the industry.


To replace fur with big contracts of other materials giving them an even greater returns.

The work with farmers to give them a fair price for their stock.


Yabby has told the girls what the real problems is in Australia.

We are greatful for that much. He was honest about it.

`THAT` is where the energy needs to be placed.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 12 September 2008 8:23:45 AM
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Belly, I didn't know that you were slapped on the wrist for flaming me - in fact, I didn't even know that you had. The "elephant in the corner" metaphor escapes me a little, I'm afraid.

PALE, if you want to post fatuous rubbish, start a more appropriate thread to do so. The ship post was clever and amusing? To whom? And in what way was it remotely relevant to animals in China? As for entering this forum to trail you at the behest of anyone else, you really do exaggerate your own importance. I don't know anyone who would be bothered. It's simply that you post so much irrelevant, ungrammatical, execrably expressed, largely untruthful gibberish and self-interested propaganda, often in several names, that you expose yourself to realistic criticism.

Do you seriously think giving the Chinese freebies in terms of equipment is going to put an end to the atrocities that have been reported here? "Working with industry"? Get real. It would be about as successful as the "working with industry" in the Middle East has been proved to be.

Still, it's interesting to see you so clearly aligning yourself with the live exporters by supporting the doctrine according to Yabby.

You also make your slaughtering and fundraising (even beyond the PayPal donation link) interests clear ...

"As a Red Meat and Abattoir operator I am afraid we will have to ask for Yvette to stand down and also bring on MLA LIVECORP Department of Trade Enquiry. Too much conflict of interest". (PALE)

"Your letter stems from a commercial interest and a desire for development grants". (MLA to PALE)

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 12 September 2008 12:21:35 PM
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Belly

Thank you for your admission that you support the export of live animals.

It is unfortunate that you didn't disclose this in your original post rather than attack those with opposing views.

However, I note your revulsion over the treatment of animals in China:

"Yes I read them, and yes I cringed at the story about those half dead dogs."

I am confused since you object to China's treatment of animals but endorse and encourage the sadistic treatment of Australian animals in the Middle East. In addition, you condone the practice of Australian farmers who partially skin sheep alive (mulesing) and Australian cattle owners who cut out the ovaries of a fully conscious cow - resulting in high mortality rates.

Are your hypocritical convictions typical of those who run with the hares and hunt with the hounds?
Posted by dickie, Friday, 12 September 2008 2:58:03 PM
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*Australian farmers who partially skin sheep alive (mulesing)*

Dickie, best that you run out and give a comforting hug to those
tens of millions of men, who were "partially skinned alive"
at circumcision time. The poor dears must still be traumatised.

Hehe, what a bunch of whackos, no wonder you are largely ignored.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 12 September 2008 4:06:13 PM
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Nicky think about the elephant in the corner a bit more add the fact I sometimes agree with you.
Dickie best advise I can give myself is abandon animal rights threads, most do.
In a debate both sides get a hearing, the intent is to convince the other side some of what you say is true.
Skinning sheep alive?
Killing cattle while de sexing them?
My time owning cattle was hard enough I never killed them this way.
I am with great pride a trade unionist.
I understand some from my Field are less than perfect.
I admit it, but settle for being judged for my actions not others.
still I sell a product that I believe in.
Animal welfare is also a worthwhile product.
Claims of skinning sheep alive only harm that product.
in fact this thread is just a slanging match we could not sell water to a person lost in the desert using this thread.
It may one day be possible to talk about animal rights without self promotion and paranoia I do not think now is the time.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 12 September 2008 5:07:26 PM
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But unfortunately not by Yabby, it seems. And did anyone say that circumcision is the right thing to do?

Belly, I am also a strong supporter of the trade union movement, so I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that you are in favour of live exports when the (local) union position is to strongly oppose it, in view of the job losses it has and continues to cause. But we digress from the animals in China.

I think that at least by providing this thread I have managed to raise some awareness of their plight; petitions and letters are circulating, and the Chinese government is in a position where it has been exposed to international scrutiny on this and other matters.

I am making a conscious effort not to buy anything made in China, and asking more questions about the components of what I buy and their origin/s. I am also using my networks to encourage as wide a boycott as possible. A drop in the ocean? Maybe. But if enough people at least do that it must help.

I've also notified both WSPA and PETA via their websites. PETA has people "on the ground" all over SE Asia.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 12 September 2008 8:07:38 PM
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*"Your letter stems from a commercial interest and a desire for development grants". (MLA to PALE)*

WRONG!

No! time for Government front men, be they MLA, Livecourpe, Austrade, FF.

When MLA call 9pm to claim they dont know a person +you are looking at a picture of them standing next to that person on a web site -

#It doesnt leave room for wanting futher contact.#

When they tell you there is 'nothing happening 'in Maylasia re Halal Meat -and "you have sat with delagtes of Maylasia Gov to make that country the hub of Halal carcuss= "after the Animal is slaughtered in Australia "-then you know they LIE!

http://www.worldhalalforum.org/

When the head of MLA calls you from ME and says there is no 'way they' will support anything that competes with live exports it DISCUSTS YOU!

What ever happened to healthly compertion.?

"They protect live exports with their lives their jobs"
and get quite offended if you suggest perhaps some of they buyers might like to expand to *producing and importing* cutting out the middle man .

The Minister of Trades job as Mark Vaile pointed out is to PROMOTE 'value adding ' of Australias products.
HuH! . I suppose thats why a staff member at MLA told us Mark 'personally 'arranged ships loads of Live Sheep to Kwaite. (Government to Government)

An absolute dicrace to think we allow Australia to be known as the largest exporter of LIVE Animals!

Its barbaric and unthinkable and no REAL farmer supports it.

They are being chased off and replaced by intensive feed lot corps that wouldn`t know a cow from a donkey.

Its a discrace and if you think I would take ONE cent of their lousey money you must be dreaming. I hope they ROT in hell!

To add insult to injury, you are then informed by the X Ministers advisor that Dr Wirth then WSPA President along with the UK head of RSPCA ,gave their commitement to 'support live exports' ?

(At the same time) launched a major campainge to fund raise and protest 'against' live exports ?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 12 September 2008 9:46:56 PM
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I really cannot decipher that at all. Can anyone translate it into something that might mean something please?

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 12 September 2008 10:30:18 PM
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Nicky dear, sweetheart, precious, the problem is that you just don't
get it! What you are doing is a great feelgood exercise, you might
even convince a couple of housewives not to use Chinese products,
but frankly, take a look at the big picture.

The Chinese economy is huge, and even if every single Australian
never bought a single Chinese product, it would hardly matter to them.

The reality is that these days, we need their consumer products, more
then they need our business.

To understand China, you need to go back in their history. Not so
many years ago, people in China were starving and anything with
4 legs, bar tables and chairs, was put in the cooking pot.
As the Chinese economy grows, things are slowly changing. Some
Chinese now even have pets, without the threat of them being eaten.

As China grows and becomes wealthier, yup, your Chinese RSPCAs will
appear, people will be able to afford and think about animal welfare,
something that does not happen much in countries where people are
starving. That is the reality.

If we look at the Western World, change did not come about overnight
with a snap,crackle and pop, but was slow and steady, one step at
a time. They same will happen in China.

All you are doing now, is making a fool of yourself. One minute you
scold people for being off topic, next minute you comment on anything
imaginable that has nothing to do with fur from China.

You are so deep in the forest, you don't even notice the trees
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 12 September 2008 10:34:17 PM
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Sorry Nicky

I'm unable to decode the lingo either. And I see the comedian's at it again when he declares:

"you might even convince a couple of housewives not to use Chinese products,but frankly, take a look at the big picture."

If this witless ignoramus knew how to google "animal cruelty China," he would receive no fewer than 881,000 websites from around the globe, denouncing the Chinese for the atrocities they perpetrate on animals and urging readers not to buy Chinese products.

In addition to the fur trade Nicky, a "gourmet" in China can buy monkeys in the marketplace and send them to inns for cooking. The cooks first stuff the monkeys into tiny cages and forces them to drink rice wine until they're intoxicated. They are then pulled from the cage and bound by their limbs (preventing movement.)

Their skulls are hacked open with a sharp knife to reveal easily visible, pulsing blood vessels. The white brains are then scooped out and served as soon as possible; eaten when still warm with seasonings.

Monkey brains become pungent if they are not fresh if the skull was opened too long ago. Thus it is best to open the skull and eat at once, while brain cells are living and blood vessels throbbing.

Back to Belly who continues to evade my questions and feigns such surprise:

"Killing cattle while de sexing them?"

Belly why am I not surprised to witness your descent into the realms of the bushwacking degenerates, to join your brother-in-sadism, Yabby?:

"The Willis Drop Ovariectomy was 92 to 97% effective, depending on operator experience. The number of deaths was the same or higher in Willis spayed animals than other groups.

"The WDO suffers from requiring a high degree of skill in transrectal ovarian manipulation. There were more deaths than with traditional spay methods (flank.)" (Australian Veterinary Journal Jan. 2008)

"Skinning sheep alive?"

No Belly that is NOT what I said. You have conveniently omitted the word "partially:"

http://www.animalsaustralia.org/media/photos.php?campaign=15

"I am with great pride a trade unionist."

And a deceitful one at that!
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 13 September 2008 12:07:52 AM
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Pls note

We are not diverting this thread.

"Now we are talking about something else yet again."


I forgot you two wouldnt follow what I said about MLA- forget it.

Belly keep your shirt on ,your either interested in Animal Welfare or your not. Now before you answer that remember Australia sends dogs alive to that are more than likely skinned alive and dropped into a boiling point alive.

Pls scroll to the bottom
http://www.aact.org.au/greyhounds.htm

If you care enough to be a man and stand up against our Government to STOP this I am sure NicknDick would love to talk to you.

The question is what are you personally going to do about this.

If it were not for people such as Nicky and Dickie and pale posting on public forums then people wouldnt even know about these things.

Well we might disagree on methods to fix Animal welfare but on protesting against it we are united.

If you look at that dog in the pot and consider its evil then dont just remain silent spread the word amoung your contacts and stand up and be counted.
Yabby we may not be able to change China overnight but 'we can stop our animals going alive to China and other counties'.

Australia is the largest live animal exporter in the world.

We ship off live wild goats dears dogs cattle sheep etc... The list goes on.

We know the way third world countries live yet we still send them there.
Every farmer has a right to a fair price- true.

They also have a duty of care to their animals.

Stand up to Rudd and demand the red tape is cut to allow plants to reopen + import workers to run them.

You can judge a nation by the way it treats its Animals.
( Well in that case we are not looking too good as the eyes of the world look at Australia.}
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 13 September 2008 5:55:05 AM
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Nicky the elephant has spoken.
Dickie no not at all a lie teller
You live in a different world than me.
For far more than most of us live export is not a crime.
Again most want as little cruelty as possible.
The idea farmers who export are bad farmers is a joke.
Unions, gee how can I say it like it truely is?
A difference exists between unions.
Oh plenty want to hide that fact, some from within the movement.
But every thing from thugs and mugs to very left vs right unions exist.
The union against live exports is acting in self interest.
It wants more jobs here, no matter that some exports are sold in that market or no place.
Not all unions are against live exports.
Even from within the union movement I am free to say I understand and suport live exports.
Finaly yabby has set out the truth about China, yes we have concerns yes those commplaining are right but the path yabby has set out is how improvement will come.
I am ducking the subject of animal welfare, hopefully for good, just no chance my views can be seen as my right in such threads in OLO.
Dickie I am sure you are a nice person but your written words often hide it
regards
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 13 September 2008 6:17:13 AM
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I assume would be the meat workers AMIEU.

Since when was standing up for your mens right to work the wrong thing to do.

Protesting as these peoples jobs were taken off them and their houses.

*Yabby will now rush in and argue that we dont have any staff and nobdy wants to work in an abattoir anyway.*

Of course not after twenty years of Governments plotting with USA live shipping industry.

The power of the political donation is such.

Why else do you think Rudd headed for the hills as shadow Minister when asked to disclose AWB were not just exporting wheat but live exports.

*Why else was the they told to back off live exports*.!!

Rudd was desperate to get something on the Howard Vaile Downer as shadow Minister but "couldnt risk his party being excluded from the donations from the blood money of the evil trade."

I pray he ends up on one of those ships .

Lets look at the history of these union blokes over the last twenty years shall we.
Mind you they helped create it in the first place by scheming with Bush USA. ( Not they they probably knew it allowing themselves to be used by pawns then dumped with help from their hero Packer and others.

Some were not the brightest but some were right on the ball like Tom Hannon and many others.

We still support union blokes ,non union blokes, any folks, from all walks of life that have some common deceny towards animals

http://www.amieu.asn.au/search.php?q=export

"I see you have no comment for the dogs either."

Kind of makes your comments to David Boaz for kicking the dog look a bit sick.

*Nicky have you seen that thread? I was somewhat rather looking forward to you comment.*

Belly pls do not leave this thread for our sake.

We will go now to our farm and leave you talk with the lovely ladies:)
I am sure they would like few words with you.

I think you might find they make the elephant look like
a pussy cat.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 13 September 2008 8:47:36 AM
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Ah Dickie, but just how gullible and ignorant you are, shows up
once again, to us more informed posters.

So some animal liberation group shows a picture of a dead lamb and
an outrageously overmulesed lamb and claims this to be mulesing.

Have you ever been on a farm to see mulesing in action Dickie dear?

In all the years we mulesed merino lambs here, I can only think
of one single lamb that died. Its highly likely that mulesing was
not even the cause, but something else. But your true believer
website shows a picture of a dead lamb, to form that association
in your mind and of course take your money, if they rattle the
tin hard enough and push your emotional buttons as much as possible.

In reality, mulesing on the thousands upon thousands of lambs that
I have seen mulesed in this area, takes about a third of the
skin off, which your true believer website wants to imply. Merinos
have very loose and very thin skin and much to much of it, so the
idea is to tighten it up on each side of the tail.

But of course it would not be good propaganda to show how most
mulesing is performed, so we show one totally outrageous animal
and claim that this is normal. Sucker you are Dickie!
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 13 September 2008 10:55:18 AM
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Belly, for the record, the unions represented at live export protests that I have attended included the AMIEU, the CFMEU and the Maritime Union, and a statement from the ACTU records the union position on live exports. Strange bedfellows? Maybe, but certainly a commonality of purpose.

At last count, the petition before the senate now has about 220,000 signatures on it, so we are hardly an "extreme minority".

The transporters involved in the loading were individual contractors, not providing union labour, and the number of wharfies involved in these loading is minimal. Of course, the crews of the ships are not Australian either.

AMIEU statisticians put the DIRECT job losses attributable to the live export trade at 40,000.

Having said that, I can't really figure out the US involvement, and my understanding was that the AWB involvement was fairly minimal. There was also a timing issue about those claims.

PALE, I'm not sure which thread you are expecting me to comment on. If it's the AACT one, I already knew about it. Greyhound Action is a good source of information on that. Australia sends greyhounds to (at least) Macau and Korea (where beating and blow-torching dogs to death is routine, as it is in China. No LG, Samsung, Daewoo, Kia or Hyundai for me - in fact, I even refuse rental cars of those brands when I am offered them).

Yabby as usual dodges the issues at hand and his comments are not worth discussing (much as I appreciated the endearments) (:

I have fallen into the trap of digressing now; however, Yabby, you could however note Dickie's post about the number of websites and petitions devoted to animal abuse in China. It would appear to be a matter of interest to more than a "couple of Australian housewives" (I do wish you could get a bit more creative with your insults)

Maybe you could also bring yourself to concede that it IS egregious animal abuse too.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 13 September 2008 2:20:07 PM
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"The union against live exports is acting in self interest.
It wants more jobs here,"

How very odd Belly. I understood that was the reason why unions were established, to protect the workers and ensure job security.

So what are your motives for being a Trade Union representative?

I shudder to think!
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 13 September 2008 10:19:00 PM
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Err of course the lack of jobs has nothing to do with the fact that
the Australian sheep population has gone from 180 million to 80
million, due to lack of profitablity.

Why arn't all these people who claim to have lost jobs, applying for
the jobs being offered by meatworks?

Crapola indeed, being published by our OLO liberation fanatics.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 13 September 2008 11:23:22 PM
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Dickey is right Yabby- and next post I will tell "you why"!.
Well done Dickey!


May I say what a good post that was made by Nicky
Beautifully explained to Belly-
btw I wasn’t referring to the AACT site. Bozzie started a thread to inform us all he kicked a dog- Or a mutt he terms it.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2131

It might be good if we talked about the AACT site.I have no information.

Nicky said
*Having said that, I can't really figure out the US involvement and my understanding was that the AWB involvement was fairly minimal. There was also a timing issue about those claims.*

*Having said that, I can't really figure out the US involvement,*

Nicky not tonight I am too tired. I was referring to the history of the meat industry and the monopoly by US and their involvement of live exports through trade.
I will get back to it later.- promise .

Perhaps Yabby might explain it Please Yabby?( It will be interesting for me to see if your willing to do that.

Nicky said
*my understanding was that the AWB involvement was fairly minimal.

pale asks>
May I enquire please as to who gave you that information please?

*There was also a timing issue about those claims.*

Pale asks>
Oh, I see- How is that? This is very interesting.

Just before I go a few words to belly. Belly you never let me down
You can always put a smile on my face- 'thank you.'
I note your comment regarding unions-

Belly said
(Oh plenty want to hide that fact, some from within the movement.
*But every thing from thugs and mugs to very left vs right unions exist.*
*The union against live exports is acting in self interest.*
*every thing from thugs and mugs to very left vs right unions exist*
pale replies
Belly I am not sure Kevin would thank you for that but I will.
" Perfect"

Your a funny man belly pls dont leave us

Perhaps you ought to consider a job for Bredan:)
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 14 September 2008 5:22:52 AM
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We export animals to these people. campaigners "on the ground" recognize the hopelessness, and kill themselves...

Chinese Representative of CIWF dead after International Conference in Beijing (2006)

Pei Wang (Betty), 33, Chinese representative of the organisation "Compassion In World Farming" (CIWF) took her own life in Beijing China on 8 November just days after the closing of the "International Forum on Animal Welfare and Meat Safety" conference. This conference was organized by Pei and was solely devoted to the welfare of pigs in China. Following Pei’s death, popular local newspaper, "Xin Jing Bao", reported that her husband had told friends that she was overwhelmed by people’s cruelty towards animals and felt desperate that she could not make much of a difference [to the welfare of the animals]. Pei Wang was a well respected animal welfare advocate who spent a large part of her career working to improve Animal Welfare within China and was involved in, amongst other activities, investigating dog slaughter in CiXi City and fur farming in Hiibei.

At the present time China has no laws regulating either the conditions in which animals live, or the procedures to which they are subjected. Consequently, animal welfare, particularly in the farming industries, is often less than optimal. Promotion of an increased awareness of the problems relating to Animal Welfare in production animals in China should be encouraged with the aim of making steps to improve conditions for animals in this country

http://www.uq.edu.au/vetschool/cawe/docs/CAWE_Newsletter.Feb06.pdf

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 14 September 2008 6:52:37 PM
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Nicky said
*my understanding was that the AWB involvement was fairly minimal.*

Nicky
When you direct comments to me as you have below and I respond out of common manners I do not expect you to then ignore me.

Please dont go on either about me changing the subject because remember these below are YOUR comments.


Now you own these comments below and I want to know what made you print this totally WRONG information.

I think I already know where you got that from but I will give you a chance to respond before I correct you.

Do you really think the Bulletin would have ran the story on AWBs connection to Live Exports and Rudds failer to disclose it to the public if it were not spot on.

No, because they would have got their arses sued.

pales response
May I enquire as to who gave you that incorrect information?

Nicky-
*There was also a timing issue about those claims.*

Pales reply
Oh, I see- How is that? This is very interesting.

So Nicky we are waiting for you to explain why you said
*my understanding was that the AWB involvement was fairly minimal.*

*my understanding was that the AWB involvement was fairly minimal.*


?

Also sad the lady in china took her life. It would probably be much better for the animals to let her rest in peace because the opposition will simply say= she was mentally unstable and use it against the argument.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 15 September 2008 4:19:15 AM
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Hi all

A petition about truth in labelling of fur products ...

http://www.pelzfrei.info/petition.php

There doesn't seem to be a translation facility, but the pictures say it all.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 15 September 2008 9:18:09 PM
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Nicky

Not game to answer I see.
Your totally rude and most of all irresponsible.
You make statements that are not only 'wrong' but 'unhelpful' to animals.

Then when you are challenged to produce something to support it you run a mile.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 15 September 2008 10:07:11 PM
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Not at all. You are, as usual, irrelevant and off topic.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 15 September 2008 11:13:39 PM
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Nicky

Amazing how you switch and swap to suit yourself. Has it ever occured to you to read your own posts. It very clear you chop and change depending which thread and to whom you are posting.

Then of course when somebody adresses it- everybody is off topic. I think Yabby alspo pointed out similar not so far back.



Do you honestlty think you can make a difference to China by calling them names like you do the farmers and Muslims.
If anything at all you will only make it harder for others such as RSPCA for example to one day be able to go in and make a difference.

People tend to not be too interested to work with others who abuse them and call them names.
Pity you cant see that because you are doing untold damage despite good intentions maybe for animals.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 16 September 2008 4:26:42 AM
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Allow me

The fact is AWB 'are' and 'were' involved with live exports Nicky.

They were involved right from the time Wesfarmers jumped out of the industry trying desperatly not to be seen connected with the cruel live animal trade after the Cormo.

So they passed it onto the Australian Wheat Board.
So its 'interesting' Nicky you say you have been told differently.

The way we see it is why wern`t the so called peak leaders of Animal Welfare 'screaming' this from the roof tops?

Here we were with the biggest enquiry ever held in this country and what an oportunity to high light the live export issue.

So did Animals Australia know AWB were live exporters. Did they know it wasnt just money from wheat.

If they didnt know then the question must be asked why not.

Also the same question I suppose should be asked of RSPCA Head office in Canberra.

How come pale were the only ones to inform the public.

Despite the fact we work with some fantasic RSPCA people the question remains why were 'both these head offices' silent about this at the AWB.

+ if RSPCA CEOs, Inspectors ,Vets , wages are made up between the federal Government and State Governments and the other organisation is being called extreme vegatrains by the media and Governments- Then

The question must be asked ~Who is really working for animals?~

Or is this just a politcal joke.

Sadly it looks very much like it to many people.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 18 September 2008 1:58:42 PM
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In China, "a black bear perches precariously on a scooter and is forced to drive a circus performer across a tightrope."

The amount of long-term cruelty inflicted on an animal to force it to walk a tight-rope would be too gruesome to imagine.

"This shocking image is just the latest picture to emerge from the barbaric Animal Olympic Games in China, a country with a shameful animal rights record."

Bears and our kangaroos are forced to spar with human opponents in a boxing ring.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-407693/Un-bear-able-Chinas-cruel-animal-Olympics-reach-new-heights.html
Posted by dickie, Thursday, 18 September 2008 8:00:17 PM
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Dickie, it is just hideous, isn't it? Atrocity after atrocity. But don't let us criticize the delicate sensitivities of the Chinese in case the RSPCA wants to go in there and "make a difference".

Yeah, right.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 18 September 2008 11:23:52 PM
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These things are awful thats for sure. However we have to start somewhere. Lets face it we cant protect Animals in Australia- let alone China.
I am NOT happy with everything to do with RSPCA- especially Hugh and some others at head office BUT- I do think China might consider having an RSPCA branch or branches if approached by the right people.

I do think anything RSPCA can do to make a difference to animals in China would be welcome.
Lets face it anything anybody can do would help.

I cant see a magic answer towards animal cruelty world wide. Unless somebody with a powerful amount of money tips in and sets up Animal Welfare police who no doubt would have to operate outside the laws in many considering there are nO laws to protect animals.

Somebody to put the fear of God to anybody mistreating animals.

People who are cruel to animals need to be taken out. They need to be taken to an island and have done to them what they did to the animals.

So do our members of parliment that sit there and allow cruelty to animals to continue in Australia.

Oh and lets not forget our Church Leaders whos responsibilty it is to speak out for Gods creatures .

If I had the funds I would make sure this happend.

However like everyone else we can only try to highlight the awful cruelty that goes on.

My pet hate is when people post back and say- Oh people are suffering as well and people are more important than animals.

Well heres news! No they are NOT!

We share this earth with our fellow creatures and we are only ONE creature.

The time will come when man kind must pay for what hes done to our animals.
Its here already.

Bird flue for example stems from Animal Cruelty.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 19 September 2008 9:03:08 AM
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Far be it from me to offend the sensitive Chinese, but it seems that avarice knows no bounds. A substantial number of arrests have been made in China over the contamination of milk products which has caused the deaths of a number of babies. Those responsible were adding the chemical melamine to powdered milk products so they could get away with watering down the products. The babies have died from, and many more are critically ill, with acute kidney failure.

Bird flu and other zoonotic diseases have originated in China (and other Asian countries) as a result of how animals are kept.

But that's okay. We'll keep sending them Australian animals.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 19 September 2008 10:44:08 PM
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Nicky

Yes you’re correct. Bird flue and many others world wide.

They showed a quick picture of the cows at the company in China.

"Oh my God what’s wrong with people."!

If you saw these animals squashed in these tiny bales so small the couldn’t move and SO poor.

I didn’t couldn’t sleep because I just kept seeing it in my mind.
I am 90% sure they were Australia cows. Look like Australian Friesians.
Could you ask one of your PETA contacts the check that out do you think?
If we can confirm they are in fact Australian cows I will sit outside Rudds office day and night.
As a matter of fact as he is so chummy with China I don’t see why we cant write to him and ask him to speak up about the lambs being tossed alive to the lions.

I will let you know the reply we recieve.

What’s the matter with the eyes of the world looking at something other than these children being made sick?

Ok it’s awful but can’t they SEE the conditions these animals are kept in.
No wonder people have been made sick.

I wonder if we import buy any of that baby product.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this illness was nothing to do with adding anything and they were covering up some awful disease. You would never know I suppose.

Even here in Australia when people have died and been made ill it’s been covered up.

The department actually sent out warning emails to all Drs Surgeries without informing the public not to buy the meat or eat it.

Maybe if we put out a web site showing pictures of the way Animals are kept in China and warning people it might finally make a difference.

I honestly don’t know anymore because there is so much cruelty done by people to animals everywhere you just start to hate the human race.

I have always wanted to arrange to drop a video in each households letter box Australia wide.

Be hard to do it all by ourselves I suppose.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 19 September 2008 11:44:25 PM
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Pretty clear who cares about China and Animal Welfare.



Just to let people know we have already had it confirmed they were Australian.

As the product is sent to Australia it might give another oportunity to highlight the fact we should be exporting China the final product not the other way around.

Good Animal Welfare and good health for our kids goes hand in hand.

So anybody interested to stop our cattle going to China are welcome to get the message out to the public.

We need co-ops to produce powered milk here and export to China (not the other way around)

Yet another example of the need for cojoint ventures between Aussie farmers and off shore companies.

Something our Animal Welfare groups seem to oppose.

It just gets stranger .

Every time we have an oportunity to expose cruelty to Australian Animals there is silence.

First AWB. Now the milk scare in China. BOTH involve Australian Animals so where are these so called leaders?

Not a darn word- again
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 23 September 2008 5:28:32 PM
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PALE, has it ever crossed your mind that:

a) other animal advocacy groups may not subscribe to this forum,
b) the whole world does not jump to attention because PALE enters a post here and
c) other people in fact HAVE taken up the matter of Australian cattle being exported to China?

A link to whatever news item you saw which contained photographs might have been useful.

Not only is the way cattle are kept in China abhorrent, but I imagine what they do to them when their milk yield drops would be worse.
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 23 September 2008 7:57:42 PM
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Nicky
Has it ever occured to 'you' that we might have contacted your friends "well before "anything started going to China and asked for help to highlight the way Animals were treated there.?

Well we did.

What we said was required was to get it out to the public 'before' our cows were sent to China.

Regardless or not if you agree we are simply doing our best for the animals in our own way.
All we are saying here is for goodness sake why do we always "ingore any oportunity to highlight this cruelty".

The milk scare is a very good time for our leaders to come out and start screaming about the way in which our Australian cows are treated.
Its the good time to explain to the public that Australian cows should be used here not there to supply powered milk for China.

Why? Because the average housewife doesnt know our cows are sent to China!

So while its in the media world wide we should take up that oportunity.
Just like we should have through the AWB enquiry regarding live exports.
We post these things Nicky - Not to upset or "offend" you but because we want to "highlight" these issues for animals.

Now is the time to highlight our cattle in China- but as usual we hear silence.

Its not good enough.

If people put their hands up to lead they should be capable of spotting these oportunitys very quickly.

What is required is footage of our Australian cattle in China on TV at peak times.

I can not see why we cant do that if we all pitched in together. We are certainly happy to put in our donation towards such advertsing.

PETA have far more funding than we do- So why? dont thery accept this offer.
Of course I am not suggesting you can control PET
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 24 September 2008 9:23:28 AM
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PALE, if you want to claim that you have seen cattle in a Chinese feedlot that you can "confirm" are Australian, (which is what you appear to be saying, but it's not very clear) you need to provide some evidence that they are Australian if that's the direction you want to take. New Zealand exports large numbers of cattle to China as well, so you need to pretty sure of your evidence.

A relevant link would be useful, as I have said before. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that among the live animals fed to predators in Chinese zoos are "spent" dairy cattle either.

No-one can take credible action without evidence. The only person from government that I've ever seen participating in these fora is Andrew Bartlett, so saying "where are our leaders" is pretty empty really, since they probably will never read it. Nor have I seen anything by any of the well-known animal advocacy groups appear on this forum, so most likely this is not their preferred medium of communication. Their choice.

As I said in earlier posts, I have notified PETA via its various websites about animals in China, but you need to understand that PETA has a large enough brief on its own, it has extended very well to Australia so far, and they are not sufficiently resourced in Australia to be able to take up every issue that is identified by groups here.

Your efforts might be better spent communicating this to politicians through channels that will actually reach them if that is the approach you want to take. And before you say it - I already have. So, I believe, has Wirthless about long-distance transport and local processing generally after today's case of dead and dying sheep arriving at saleyards (and other similar cases).

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 24 September 2008 11:58:02 PM
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Nicky

Fair enough. Good comment.I think the best possible weapon to help animals would be to be in the position to hand over billions of dollars to Lyn White.

Now thats not impossible but it has to be done in a way where by funds contiune to flow.

Hense HKM and our farmer programe working with ME people.

Nicky there are many Muslim people who would invest in Australia.

Its the Governments in bed dealings with the shipping agents that is the reason for animal cruelty.

The Government could if they wanted turn all farms into free range and slaughter in Australia by reopening abattoirs.



The footage will be sent from China along with evidence of Australian cattle in the worste possible conditions.

If you say PETA cant afford to assist with advertsing in prime time TV regarding live exports and intensive farming then I suppose I have to take your word.

Although 40 million is a lot of funding and I know millions is sent to sponcer AL and others.

Regarding Andrew I can only say I didnt hear him or see him put out a media relase re AWB or anything on his web site either.

When I sent Andrew the information I also sent it to Mark Pearson and AA as well as Rudd.

Now before you start remember it was Australias largest Royal Commission and we SHOULD have highlighted AWBs connection to live exports to the public along with the cruelty involved.

( Make no mistake Nicky if the public SEE wbats happening they WILL demand its stopped.)


I am doing to disclose some information on the Malyasia thread.
All I ask is for you to read it before having a go at me.- please .

Like you I am only doing this for the animals.

We may be attacking it from a slightly different angle but I think thats required.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 25 September 2008 4:55:16 AM
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Nicky
I wanted to add there is no point in appealing to the Government or the industry.

Let’s face it the utter embarrassment for the Australian Government and the industry to have been exposed many times by an Australian lady x police officer. The disrespect shown by the Government to this x police officer just goes to show how low these people really are.

We simply must acknowledge these people have no concern for animals what so ever. They have zero sensitivity or any sense of moral values.



The truth is there is only one way to handle these people and that is to have people just as tough as these rouges and’ `even tougher.`’

MLA has extraordinary powers overseeing councils regarding placements of Abattoirs.

I for one would like to know why. I have already told you the head of MLA in ME contacted me some time ago and said very clearly they were NOT prepared to inform ME contacts of our invitations to work with Muslim leaders of Australia and farmers at grass root levels to form co joint ventures.
That in itself shows that this Government and our prior Government is bending over backwards to protect those involved in the industry.
After all Government agencies are using tax payer dollars and are ‘supposed to represent everybody.

There should be no favorites in this market or any other.
.
A disclose of donations to political parties is vital for Australia.
What donations are Elders and other making to political parties? Or AWB? And dozens of others.

What about the transport companies... Does Landmark made donations via one of many company names?
Do they donate to the AVA via any funding through vetinary universities?
Are these students often given the job of AVA president
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 25 September 2008 5:33:49 AM
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Greetings all

October 2 is World Farm Animals' Day. This event has occurred around the world for a couple of decades.

Most events in Australia will occur this weekend so if any of you live in the Eastern States (check the "events list") you may consider attending one of the activities in memory of the 50 billion farm animals slaughtered each year, after being subjected to a life of pain and suffering.

Let's not forget the additional millions of animals also tortured annually in vivisection laboratories throughout Australia.

"Australian of the Year" (by Jenny Moxham)

The dairy folk are up in arms
In fact they're in a tizz,
'Cos Philip's dared to tell the truth
And say it as it is.

He's dared to let the public know
The tranquil dairy scene,
Is tragic for both cow and calf,
An industry obscene.

He's dared to say our water
Is too valuable to waste,
In growing feed for dairy cows
For nothing more than taste.

He's dared to speak about the great
Environmental harm,
That's caused by all the methane gas
On every dairy farm.

This man has spoken from his heart,
He has no hidden aim,
He cares for all on planet Earth.
(Can farmers say the same?)

This man is honest, good and true,
(Today that's something rare)
I salute you Philip Wollen!
Australian of the Year.

Philanthropist Philip Wollen was last year awarded the 2007 Australian of the Year award. Many in the farming sector, including the Victorian Farmers Federation president, are calling for the award to be revoked since Mr Wollen's recent comments on the dairy industry.

In a statement supporting Animal Liberation Victoria's "Milk Sucks" campaign, he labeled the dairy industry "cruel, unnecessary and unsustainable" Federal Agriculture Minister Peter McGauran said Mr Wollen should apologize for his "absurd" comments.

http://www.wfad.org/about.htm

http://www.worldanimalday.org.uk/Press2008/Aduki%20Independant%20Press%20-%20Edgar's%20Mission%20WAD%20event%20-%20September%202008.pdf

http://www.animalsaustralia.org/events/?event=31
Posted by dickie, Thursday, 2 October 2008 9:37:26 PM
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Hi all

Thanks for that, Dickie - Jenny writes some amazingly powerful stuff.

PALE, have you been unable to find any links to dairy farming in China?

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 2 October 2008 11:24:21 PM
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Nicky
China is full of Australian dairy cattle. I gave you the opportunity to contact these same people in China 'direct'.
You declined...

No they didn’t build a site or do any links.

They DID confirm the cows are Aussie and took pics however.
Still I guess there is nothing new in that - is there.

I think you miss my point. I am complaining that peak Australian Animal Groups have ‘not highlighted’ that this wouldn’t happen if we produced our own milk products “here”.

I am complaining that ‘again’ they missed a good opportunity to point this out to the Australia public while highlighting the cruelty.

If we said Warning citizens of Australia= * your child and family could be poisoned and help us stop cruelty to Australian farm Animals by establishing Milk co-ops HERE then you might get some action.

But oh no what do they do- Tell people not to use milk. Great. Well done I don’t think.



To protest people using milk is silly and does a great deal of harm 'again allowing the media and Government to write us off as extreme.

It’s the same as telling people not to eat meat. Don’t eat meat- don’t drink milk. Don’t eat eggs.
There’s nothing new here. Do you honestly think if I thought for ONE SECOND that would really help animals I would be saying the same thing?

Can’t you see you are being led by a political monster that operates world wide? You say you’re intelligent then think about it for yourself.

This might make some animal lovers feel better about them but it does stuff all to improve conditions for Animals.

To do that you must come up with sensible alternatives to the Government, public and farmers- not to mention your overseas suppliers because without them you have no business.

You can only improve things for animals IF you work with a program to do just that.
By telling people not to drink milk you are ensuring nothing improves for Animals- ever.

That’s a fact. Stick your head in the sand if you wish.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 3 October 2008 2:54:29 AM
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Dickie

I know, you’ think’ I am having a crack at your buddies- but in real life I am trying to inform animal lovers of facts.

*Thank you lord for sending us a Rudd Government *– (who are nowhere near as smart as the Howard Gov was.)

Speaking of world Animal day pale received a telephone call (just a few short days ago) from a lady organizing Sunday.

Umm, interesting considering pale wrote to the Federal Government to complain about the peak body ‘only’ working with veggie organizations and black listing our group.

We asked ‘again’ why the Government would be happy to work with the small percentage of Australians when 96% few in fact meat eaters.

We used the meeting on the Gold coast last mouth as a classic example of AAs rudeness as the peak body.

Considering we are the only full time Ban Live Export office in Australia = + our office is situated close to the Casino we were stunned AA did not contact us.( Oh yes our people attended but that’s hardly the point.)

As well, we are wondering WHY RSPCA National and AA agree to these evenings being HOSTED by live exporters?

We consider it an INSULT to the Animals.

Neither Bidder Jones or anybody at RSPCA National including Dr Wirthless contacted us.

Hugh Wirth and RSPCA national KNEW we put together a program to phase out live exports with Muslim leaders and ignored it the same as Animals Australia.

We suggested to the Government to accept such a small minority of views for the nations preferred position on Animal Welfare was unbalanced and we suspected politically motivated.

We pointed out this is clearly unfair on the 'majority' of public.

Presto would you know it- *our first invitation to world animal day.*

Pardon us if we find that as confirmation + proof of what we had accused them of in the first place.

Oh and speaking of clicky political agend`s there was a condition however. * Wait for it*

That we don’t bring any Muslims to protest Animal cruelty. Crikey!
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 3 October 2008 4:14:00 AM
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"Considering we are the only full time Ban Live Export office in Australia = + our office is situated close to the Casino we were stunned AA did not contact us."

"Stunned" Pale? Why on earth would Animals Australia contact you?

You slaughter animals Pale. Get a grip on yourself - please!
Posted by dickie, Friday, 3 October 2008 10:24:18 AM
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Dickie

I will take it you have that on authority.

Allow me explain, to you, why everybody should have been contacted -apart from manners.

We cant have a organization representing the Australian public that only represents less than 6% of them while ignoring and blacklisting other organizations that represent over 90% Dickie , =that’s why.

Because as a peak leader of ~anything~ that is your responsibility. +
It doesn’t give you the right to manipulate your own agenda by ensuring programs other than your own go unheard.

You are 'supposed 'to treat everybody equally.

Despite the fact you may prefer other ideas to – (lets say Ban Live Exports) it’s arrogant not to listen to other proposals.

(I might add especially when your own has been tested for over twenty years and been unsuccessful and the trade has tippled).

Instead of coming on like the 4th of July Dickie you should think about your response to us more carefully...

Do you realize you have confirmed the underlying agenda of some which = isn’t to faze out live with chilled- is it?

No that’s not what some people~ really want~ despite claiming so on their web pages.

What some want is to stop people eating meat, drinking milk and so forth all together isn’t it?

After all that’s what ‘you’ really want isn’t it Dickey.?

At least have the decency to be honest enough to stand by your ~own convictions~.

I am sure that had you seen, any merit, in fazing live, animal exports being, replaced with chilled you would have said so by now.

You would have been more supportive and encouraging towards our work wouldn’t you?

That’s Ok I appreciate the fact that you’re entitled to your view.

We also are entitled to express ours
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 3 October 2008 11:01:15 PM
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I have to confess to being totally mystified by PALE'S last two comments. Firstly, what exactly was the event at the Casino being referred to here? I doubt if personal invitations issued to anyone.

It is rather typical of PALE to be writing to the government seeking to discredit other groups. How PALE can possibly claim that the only enquiry by the government into animal welfare was defined by the vegetarian agenda (without proof as usual) is just extraordinary. That would be the last thing the government would want. It sounds more like it was simply that PALE's agenda was excluded, but it's hard to say, since they do not say what enquiry they are talking about.

And like Dickie, I'm rather perplexed about why PALE would be expecting invitations from groups whom it consistently vilifies.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 3 October 2008 11:02:44 PM
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Ah, here she is speaking of the 4th of July.
Why wouldn’t pale or any other group, involved with Animal Welfare (or anything else) write to the Government.

Do you guys think you have a excusive rights on that as well.

When a Government says you have already someone representing the publics position on animal welfare already - so pls present your proposals to them - then we are 'forced' to explain that’s impossible.

I might add and what a time too! Rudd has promised to spend 40 billion on 'infustructure= ring any bells girls

Now I did get that right didn’t I ladies.

There’s no confusion over this is there.?

It’s not just a case of sour grapes and egos from your leader to us- is it.


No, -Well then that’s official then.

It’s because as Dickie said- pale work to kill animals.

pale works to have animals killed in Australia 'YES '.
That is to stop them being sent on death ships.

I thought that’s what we were all doing but thanks for the heads up.

No wonder why the Government and the industry won’t listen to you.

I mean wouldn’t you think that having lots of people attacking this problem from different angles would be seen as support for the other groups+ only strenghten their position.

Do tell us why it is a cardinal sin for someone other than you buddy to work towards finding a solution.

Oh Hang on I forgot, that’s not really what you want either- is it?

You don’t want an alternative or solution you just want people killing animals to stop.

Nice thought Nicky but perhaps you should have spent your heck’s fees on a degree in common sense.

Still I guess they must have liked some of our ideas otherwise they wouldn’t have been seeking meetings through back doors with the same people we invited them to sit with for five years ah.



Maybe - just maybe pales doing its job after all.

Thats Ok , we sometimes use back doors too.

It tends to allow fresh air into a room.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 4 October 2008 6:37:22 AM
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Moving on ladies, if all goes well I hope you will be just as interested to help the animals.

I am going to tell you like it is with the meat industry.

Halal 'WILL' lead the world in meat and many other things.

Australia will become a Halal slaughter country.

So here are our options.

1. We work with these people 'while they need us.'

2 Establish Halal Free range farms to replace intensive feed lots with abattoirs close by having the best equipment possible.
This is done by working in conjunction with Aboriginal Elders and Regional areas to create much needed self independence.
RSPCA QLD has already started aboriginal RSPCA inspectors training.
God bless Mark Townend.

The Animals are slaughtered in Australia and some are sent to Malaysia in full carcass to be distributed throughout the Muslim world and ME by JAKIM.
We open agriculture universities to train migrants entering Australia to run Free Range Farms and work as plumber’s electricians IT....

Elder’s real estate to establish Free Range Farms franchises. (If not Elders then there WILL be others.) I think a company that large must understand it would be smart to make some changes personally)

3 We establish on each Halal Farm and Halal vegetable farm as well.

4 * Heavily promote the Halal Vegetables and open a Halal vegetable fast food chain.*
(That’s is something you could both help right now with + we could do with a hand TBO) Also to assist to establish NO ANIMAL TESTED Halal Cosmetics.

From each vegetable plant and abattoir people will be sent funding to continue their work for Animals world wide.

A new Animal welfare watch dog body "will have inspection rights" and powers to put forth any subs on how to improve conditions.

Working with Halal those people will be invited to help to multiply these in other countries. Praise Allah

Now I can’t think of anybody better than Lyn White to pass over funds from trillions of dollars in donations to help establish this.

So if you don’t mind we will get on with it.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 4 October 2008 7:31:03 AM
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And still we are in the dark about the enquiry - and even more so about the reference to 4th July.

How does one deal with halal vegetables? Slaughter them facing Mecca (with the appropriate "prayer", of course). And don't pre-stun them. That's another reason why halal will never take over the market in Australia, the public would never stand for it.

Why is halal going to take over the world - and certainly what happens in Australia? Let's not forget that Muslims remain a minority in this country. While there may be a market for such products it is not going to take over the world any time soon. As for Rudd's promises - get over it. He couldn't care less.

What I DO know, however, is that the meat industry is moving on all this; I have just done a bit of research for them.

PALE, if you write to the government vilifying other groups, you cannot then claim credibility as an "animal welfare group". And the other thing that arose out of the above research is that the government wants discourse only with the peak bodies. I'd suggest that that would rule PALE (and a number of other smaller groups) out of the debate.

Good luck with persuading Elders and opening the universities though.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 4 October 2008 3:37:34 PM
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[QUOTE]

Halal 'WILL' lead the world in meat and many other things.

Australia will become a Halal slaughter country.
[/QUOTE]

I don't think so. Islam's scripture does not contain any animal rights laws, and it is doubtful whether it even understands what was copied from the OT's kosher laws.

Do you even know 'WHY' you don't eat pork, for example - let's hear it, aside from just saying this is what your scripture says with no reasons given?

Or why the Quran does not forbid the mixing of meat and dairy, specified in the OT's kosher laws?
Posted by IamJoseph, Saturday, 4 October 2008 4:16:20 PM
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Nicky

*Why is Halal going to take over the world - and certainly what happens in Australia? *=
You will just have to take my word for it. Good to hear you’re working with the meat industry. America is going broke and vast amount of funds will be put into Halal world wide.

That’s not necessarily a bad thing 'IF' we work together with *them. *Remember Nicky the Muslim Leaders of Australia were the 'only ones' to speak out and offer to assist in diverting live to chilled from Australia.
Not one peep from our Christian Church leaders who blamed it on- (Oh, those cruel Muslims.) All while (we as the good Christians) send these animals off to ME alive knowing the cruelty involved in live exports.


http://www.halaljournal.com/?page=article&act=show&pid=2194&PHPSESSID=874a6acb26afa1a0ccde898ef5f1f7ff
http://www.halaljournal.com/index.php?page=article&act=show&category=0&pid=42
http://www.halaljournal.com/index.php?page=articlelist&name=Halal%20Industry%20Development%20Corporation%20 (HDC) &pages=1
http://www.halaljournal.com/index.php?page=articlelist&name=Company%20In%20Focus&pages=1

*PALE, if you write to the government vilifying other groups*
No, no Nicky not vilifying other groups - you got that wrong. Vilifying the Government for not having a more balanced mob and ‘complaining about them at the same time.’ Referring to Animal groups as extremists.

Pointing out we think it suites them and they are playing politics and have done so from the beginning of time regarding Animal Welfare.

btw we do have proof.

*The government wants discourse only with the peak bodies:)
Oh, Nicky how right you are.

A little secret.
Nobody needs the Government to do this.
The Government needs the farmers and the buyers and the companies that can put biz deals together. They also need answers for regional areas and aboriginal Elders.
We have meetings arranged with several within the Industry and I think the universities funded largely from overseas contacts will get Australian Gov support.



*How does one deal with halal vegetables?*

What do you care just so long as it increases the profile of vegatarin food outlets.
Now wouldnt it be nice to think a share of that and other projects went into Animal Welfare.?

I will let you know how that meetings goes, fingers crossed Nickyx

If Gandi were here he`d say =Thanks for all you.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 4 October 2008 5:02:19 PM
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IamJoseph,
Sorry I didnt see your post earlier.

Its funny you should bring this up now.

We just had a meeting with a group on friday
interested in having one blessing for all
Animals be it Kosher or Halal etc.

TBRO I dont care. However as it seem important
to you pls tell me why you think
that is as I am always interested
to learn.
I think you btw will find much interest
in Animal Welfare within Muslim communitys and not all of it is just lip service. ( Some is)
Getting back to your question - and pls note
I am not Muslim there are several
reasons given why they dont eat pork.

If your asking me I will say
one big reason is because of the ears+
the split in the hoof.
Other reasons =
Najs (Unclean)

Najs according to Shariah Law are;

* things that are themselves not
permisable such as pig (khinzir)
and all its derivatives, blood and carrion;

* any liquid and objects discharged
from the orifices of human beings
or animals such as urine, excrement,
blood, vomit, pus, sperm and ova of
pigs and dogs except sperm and ova
of other animals; and


There are three types of Najs:

* Mughallazah, which is considered as severe
najs which are dogs and pigs (khinzir)
including any liquid and objects discharged from their orifices, descendants and derivatives;
* Mukhaffafah which is considered as light najs.
The only najs in this category is urine
from a baby at the age of 2 years and
below who has not consumed any other
food except his mother’s milk;

Also because your nor you're not supposed to eat an animal that has hooves but doesn't chew it's own cud.

Kosher guidelines were drawn up in the Middle-East several thousand years ago. 42 types of animal that are forbidden. There is some controversy regarding several dishes right now.

"It can get VERY complicated,"

Re your milk and meat question..

I will however contiune in my next post.

World Animal Day in ten Minutes.

Off to bed to attend early morning.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 4 October 2008 11:51:01 PM
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Nicky
Just a quick one as I noticed I still didn’t answer your questions. =

*And still we are in the dark about the enquiry - and even more so about the reference to 4th July.*
Posted by Nicky
Answer =

4th of July= meaning fire crackers action, much activity and excitement, movement :)

Nicky posted
Why is Halal going to take over the world -......?

Answer.

Nicky, the meat trade you should know 'isn’t based on Australia other than being a very large supplier of live.
Overseas demands and despite Japan Korea and USA etc things will change in the next decade.

There are all sorts of new player’s world wide demanding more red meat as their country grows in wealth. Many are Asian countries and Halal will be right up there.

Now your question about what meeting I was referring to= the one in which you were discussing with PF on the other thread. I am sure our know which one to.

My response to the other matter you raised is as follows.

Nicky it might not be very clear to you why we would write to tackle the Australian Government for allowing a minority group (Such as vegetarians) to head Animal Welfare.
However it’s VERY CLEAR to us these suites the Government JUST FINE.

That way they can continue to brand Animal Welfare groups as extremists making it easier for them to fob off the other 96% of the Australian main stream.

So who’s playing the political game?
Take a closer look and see who has a political background.
How many Animal Welfare votes from the dems went to support ALP

. Think about it.

The same ALP State Govs allowing non stunning in domestic plants!

Why Didn’t Andrew for example ever ask Muslims to make a statement on live exports as we did? 20 years he had before we came along!

Why didn’t AA or RSPCA.
Speaking of politics it’s not something I enjoy, but someone has to point out the bleeding obvious.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 5 October 2008 7:49:07 AM
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