To Boaz _David,

I wish to respond to your interpretation of the abuses of women at the hands of the Qur’an as stated by you vis-a vis:

2/ It institutionalizes domestic violence against women. (4:34)
3/ It institutionalizes sexual abuse of captive women. (23:5-6)

I am simply advocating that a balanced and less rigid view be considered. I would like to refer you to an interpretation from a Muslim woman scholar who actually knows the Qur’an. You can find the whole transcript from:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/womeninqands.htm

I have quoted in part:

“The Qur'an admonishes those men who oppress or ill-treat women:
O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)

Considering the fact that before the advent of Islam the pagan Arabs used to bury their female children alive, make women dance naked in the vicinity of the Ka'ba during their annual fairs, and treat women as mere chattels and objects of sexual pleasure possessing no rights or position whatsoever, these teachings of the Noble Qur'an were revolutionary. Unlike other religions, which regarded women as being possessed of inherent sin and wickedness and men as being possessed of inherent virtue and nobility, Islam regards men and women as being of the same essence created from a single soul.”

Tammy Jo
Agreed, sounds good... I am unsure, if you know we have lost Foxy from OLO for now.
Let us learn from her teaching. From now on let us all honor Foxy contribution to OLO by trying to live up to her example.

TammyJ0, There are thirty two Islamic Councils in Australia. AFIC, recognized leaders by Australian Government. However not all Islamic councils recognize AFIC.

.btw, not trying to patronize you, just posting basics

We all must try harder to provide the guidance and honesty friendship to Muslim Leaders at expecting same returned. That is something the Federal Government has ‘failed’ to do to all our detriment.
.

Upon our first experiences meeting Muslim representatives from overseas there was ‘one question’ mostly all asked.

The question was – could you please just tell us the truth. Could you please just tell us the truth? --- We hear so many different stories, so many lies, different all the time, what please is the truth. (That aside for now Tammyjo)
.
Next thing we would like to point out is this >

How do we “expect” the Muslim Leaders or the Muslim people to understand our laws if they keep getting mixed messages from the government...
Isn’t it a fair thing to say if we give the Muslim Leaders mixed messages then how are they going to teach and teach the Muslim People?

The Australian Government have long allowed Islamic Slaughtering of Animals against RSPCA and Animal Welfares protests although the public don’t get the hear about it.

That gives mixed messages “that they don’t ‘really’ have to follow Aussie ways.”!

It’s unfair of the Government to put both groups of people in this position

.btw Tammy I am talking about Animal welfare laws and slaughtering laws but you can follow through and apply that to ‘everything’ especially when you fully understand the word Halal = ( Lawful to Muslims).
If you look here-

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Plan-to-push-for-halal-standard-rejected/2007/10/08/1191695801343.html
Then consider they are actually ‘doing it in Islamic methods right now’ you could be excused for asking – what is going on.?

To Be Contiuned

Continued

TammyJo, I don’t think we should dismiss what`s happening here in Australia.

Before moving on, I must explain are ‘many Islamic Councils’ or groups even within Australia and the world.
It is not uncommon for Muslims to argue from Mosque to Mosque in regards to laws or Halal.
If we are going to have a sensible debate about Islamic Law in Australia and Muslims we can only do it looking at what is happening here.

. And what we ‘personally’ know because it’s so completely different to something posted on the net from overseas... This is The Australian Muslim leader’s web site that many Muslim people view. =

http://www.afic.com.au/

What we ‘can ‘do a little later is to explore the links and trade deals from Australia to other Islamic Groups world wide.

At least that way it gives everybody a clearer understanding.

I am not posting this as a light hobby it is my life’s last five years darn hard work along with a dozen others. We are both informed and sincere.

Here is what the X President of AFIC had to say about Muslims and Halal Requirements in his time as President of AFIC – (scroll down)

http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

Dr Ali. Has also written in the Muslim News of concerns about AFIC leadership and the lack of response to denounce terrorism and some other issues- see media releases in Dr Ali`s time as AFIC President-

http://www.afic.com.au/Rape%20a%20henius%20crime.htm
http://www.afic.com.au/Amn%20Press%20Release%208th%20July%202005.htm
http://www.afic.com.au/CondemnBenbrika.htm
We can have a fantastic future working united together but only if future but only if we have people willing and wanting to do so.
There is nothing wrong with anybody bar their intentions. If peoples intentions are good then good things come from it.

People are people Christians Muslims and so forth. Personally we have some wonderful Muslim friends. Saddam Hussein's right hand man was actually a Christian so there is evidence that Muslims and Christians can work well together for a united cause. Mind you in hindsight perhaps one might have given a better example :)

Continued

FrankGol,

Don’t think Bozzie`s returning..

There is a big difference questioning leaders and rubbishing 'all' people of Muslim faith.

This hoo, har that you can’t talk about Muslim has got to stop for the sake of Australia and all people.

I see people heading for the hills left right and center btw.

Just like other Leaders Muslim leaders ‘too’ must be open and that also includes trade.

It includes the same scrutiny that goes with a democracy.

Instead some claim racism if you expect just normal behavior that is part of our democracy and Aussie ways.

There is an attitude by ; some Muslim Leaders and People that Islam business is none of Aussies business.

This is because I explained earlier Muslims do not separate business dealings or anything else from religion.

So in their eyes it’s insulting. Now here’s where I blame the Government. Both sides of Government have let Muslim migrants originally and the Australian public.

This is unacceptable and the Governments of Australia now are responsible for what is going to be a very big problem one day.

Particularly considering the Halal Accreditations which world wide run into the trillions world wide.

The Government has mishandled this for years. Sure there are many religions in Australia and world wide but no other like Islam who don’t separate laws from religion but treat it as one.

Here is your problem and it will only get worse with Islam faith and again the Government must address it with Muslim Leaders.

If The Government does not give clear messages to Muslim Leaders how can Muslim Leaders give clear directions and guidance to their flock.

In the next few posts I will demonstrate what can only be called an irresponsible list of what the Australian government has allowed for years.

This will demonstrate to you why Muslim Leaders are confused to say the least.

Of course most Muslims are moderate, so are most human beings.

We have to be taught how to hate.

This is why ALL religions need to become more accountable. For extreme religion to exist we first need religion.

I would like to see more moderates from all religious persuasions speak out strongly against those who use religion for pernicious reasons.

Foxy certainly made a good start against the more vexatious christians here. And doubtless Muslims can and do do the same.

But the world needs more responsibility from religions. Teaching that yours is the one true faith only fuels extremist behaviour for those so inclined.

Teach love, respect, empathy and courtesy. Accept that not everyone agrees with you. I don't care if you believe in the flying spaghetti monster, just don't come to my front door and try to convince me.

And don't claim I am without ethics or moral fortitude because I don't believe in god.

In short, stop creating divisions and reach out and accept the wonderful diversity of our nation, our world, our universe.

Fractelle: "I don't care if you believe in the flying spaghetti monster, just don't come to my front door and try to convince me."

The other day I was disturbed on my day off by a knock on the door. Dressed only in my irridescent green Thai silk dressing gown, I opened the door a fraction to be confronted with the sight of a clean-cut man in a hat, holding a copy of 'The Watchtower'.

Remembering something somebody here at OLO had posted some time ago, I got in first and said "Sorry, this is a gay household". The look on the guy's face was priceless, before he mumbled something and hurriedly beat a hasty retreat.

I recommend it, but it's hard to keep a 'straight' face :D