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The Forum > General Discussion > Is not Allowing Ukraine to join NATO the right decision?

Is not Allowing Ukraine to join NATO the right decision?

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Ukraine does not want this war.
They did not start it. They were invaded.

Putin wants Ukraine.

The war will continue until he gets what he wants.

NATO is the only deterrent Ukraine and its neighbours
have.

The Russian people need to make a choice.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 15 July 2023 12:40:26 PM
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Dear Foxy,

Maybe, there is no just solution. Maybe, there is only a least bad solution. Giving Putin what he wants would not be good. Keeping fighting to deny him what he wants would not be good either. There may not be a good solution - only a least bad one. There may be no way to avoid more suffering and more injustice.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 15 July 2023 12:53:59 PM
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Ukraine's fate was sealed when it surrendered its nuclear arsenal. Functional democracies are correct in providing Ukraine with weapons. Nato countries rightly conclude that supporting Ukraine is the best way to stop Russia prosecuting illegal wars of terror against other nations on its borders.

Imagining that the war could have been prevented with diplomacy is an insult to the myriad of officials who have made great efforts toward finding peaceful solutions with Putin for many years, only to be repeatedly betrayed and confounded by unprovoked Russian aggression.
Posted by Fester, Saturday, 15 July 2023 12:54:49 PM
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"You've given us the best summary of the situation that
I've read thus far, Thank You!"

Thanks Foxy....much appreciated.

Ukraine can never be neutral. Its been fought ever since Darius's invasion of Scythia in the 6th century BC and probably long before that.

Firstly, it is resource rich in having some of the best farmland on the planet.

Secondly, due to the vicissitudes of history, it is stuck between competing powers. Pretty much ever since the Rus peoples first arrived in the region they've craved control of the steppes and have indeed, for much of that time, had such control. Ukraine is either a vassal of Russia or a member of an alliance that opposes Russia. Being neutral isn't an option.

(For this same reason Poland can't be neutral which they found to their cost in 1939. It's also the reason, for what its worth, why Australia can't be neutral).

There are only two outcomes here - defeat for Russia and all that entails for the regime; or defeat for Ukraine and a truncated eastern province, nominally independent but controlled out of the Kremlin much like Belorussia.

That's not to say a negotiated end isn't possible but the terms of the peace will depend on which side decides victory is no longer possible.
If Ukraine sees that it can't dislodge the Russians and European assistance is waning, they'll be forced to cede the western provinces and a de facto subordination to Russia. If Russia sees that it can't hold it's current gains without massive losses of life and treasure, it will be forced to cede those gains (but not Crimea) and accept that Ukraine will join the western alliance.

The result remains very much in the air. But either way Russia has lost in that it has united the Europeans as never before against itself and been forced to accept a subordinate place in its Chinese alliance.
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 15 July 2023 1:03:02 PM
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Thanks for your thoughts and comments.

Putin has little regard for his people and human
life in general. He's ready to throw as many
bodies onto the battlefield as needed.

Ukraine will continue to defy the odds once again and
attempt to defeat the Russian army. This as we've
seen will come at a price. Russia has responded to
past advances and Western aid by indiscriminately
targeting civilians and bombing infrastructures.
We're going to see more of the same.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 15 July 2023 1:42:00 PM
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I've read that in Moscow a cartoon appeared of
Putin - asking:

"So what else do I have to do for you guys to
finally start rebelling?"

This after he began to mobilize younger people into the
armed forces.

Ukrainian President Zelensky decided to appeal to the
Russian people in their native language on television.

He said:

"50,000 Russian soldiers died in this war in six months. Tens
of thousands are wounded or maimed. Want more? No?
then protest. Fight back. Run away or surrender to Ukrainian
captivity. These are the options for you to survive."

Sooner or later Russians will have to confront what their
country has done.

We can only hope that it will be sooner.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 15 July 2023 3:54:12 PM
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