Ukraine has been told it cannot join NATO while
it's at war with Russia. This happened during the recent
NATO Summit held in Vilnius, Lithuania.

The NATO states
refused to be drawn on giving Ukraine a timeframe for
when it can join NATO. After all of the support that
Ukraine has received to date - Why this decision by
NATO and won't this encourage Putin to continue the
war with Ukraine, if he thinks that Ukraine can't join
NATO until the war ends? Or should NATO have simply
allowed Ukraine to join?

It is understandable that NATO does not want to involve
its states in a war with Russia - but can it continue to
supply armaments to Ukraine and prolong the war? Putin
is not about to concede. Only the Russian people can
influence his decisions. The war equally affects the
Russians - as it does the Ukrainians.

http://bbc.com/news/world-europe-66167616

It's only a few small questions there that you've asked Foxy, but even just in those few small questions there's a lot to unpack.

Firstly there's rules to joining NATO.
Allowing Ukraine to instantly join would automatically trigger Article 5.
And this means that it would no longer be a proxy war.
Russia and NATO would be directly at war.

NATO has nuclear weapons as does Russia, and the war would continue until one side uses them.
Is that what you want?

You do know that Russia has a nuclear weapon that can take out the whole of France, and will take 3 and a half minutes from launch in Kaliningrad, right?

There wont be a place called the 'United Kingdom' or 'Europe' anymore.
Do you truly understand the gravity of what's at stake here?

http://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/putin-says-russias-new-sarmat-nuclear-missiles-soon-ready-deployment-2023-06-21/

"but can it continue to supply armaments to Ukraine and prolong the war?"
- It cannot supply weapons it doesn't have and the stockpiles are empty, there's nothing more to give.

The reason why they're sending cluster bombs is because they've ran out of 155mm artillery shells.

I'm not even sure that NATO intervention can change the military situation even if it does join the conflict.
- But at that point it probably won't end until one side DOES nuke the other.

And I'm not sure that Americans and Europeans will like seeing their military coming home in coffins at the same rate Ukrainians are dying.
It'll likely be political suicide for all those leaders.

I don't think Europe or America are coming to help, and without a timeline for NATO membership Ukrainian troop morale will be completely in the toilet.
They know they are just being used, and sent to die.

The counter-offensive has been a total failure, as predicted.
Ukraine is being annihilated.

This is the price of US foreign policy and regime changes, they thought the sanctions would work, that it would cause civil unrest and Putin's ousting, and when it didn't they'd locked themselves in to this outcome.

They West was foolish for making war against an adversarial nuclear superpower.

[Cont.]
Everyone thinks the Russia started this war when it invaded in 2022.
- But the war started back in 2014 after the western sponsored coup that overthrew the democratically elected leader of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych.

Russia may have invaded, but the West itself created the conditions that forced Russia to do so.
- And the West did so on purpose in order to get Russia to enter the conflict.

See for yourself what's happening to Ukrainians and their western equipment.
http://twitter.com/innova_center/status/1677591225648521216
Does the Russian military look incompetent to you?
Isn't that what you've been told?

26,000 dead and 1244 tanks and armored vehicles destroyed in a little over a month.
(FYI NATO trained 60,000 for the counter-offensive, that's half dead and the other half seriously wounded)

300 to 350 thousand dead Ukrainians and probably just as many if not more that are too seriously wounded to return to combat, since the beginning of the conflict.
- Many left to rot where they fall, and be eaten to the bone by stray dogs.

Try to imagine the scale of that.
A few hundred dead is a terrible tragedy, now it's just numbers / statistics.
- But no-one listens to me Foxy, so you can go ahead and just keep supporting the continuation of the conflict, as most have done since Russia entered the conflict directly, in 2022.

Putin's not going anywhere, the Russian people largely support him.
If anything, he's gotten a lot of criticism for not going in harder.
- But he wants to avoid direct NATO involvement, and with it the potential for a nuclear exchange.

There's no possibility of a Ukrainian military victory.

Hi Foxy,

ABSOLUTELY! you know my opinion shades of 1914 and WWIII! ALL military alliances are bad. Unbelievably Australia is "involving" itself in this dirty disgusting war! Albanese should be ashamed of himself, a so called Labor man, cow tailing to the American imperialists, I am not a communist, I call it as I see it! I have never done this before, if there was a federal election tomorrow I would put the number "1" against the Green candidate, as long as I was convinced that person was opposed to war as I am, that's all I would do. My vote would be invalid (not numbering all the squares), but I cannot bring myself to vote for anyone Labor or Liberal who ultimately is just another warmonger!

Thanks AC, this bloody war has to stop! That silly old man in the White House, an absolute senile old fool. The alternative Trump! AHhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Ukraine can't join while-ever there is fighting on its territory. But the second the war is over, they'll be signed up and absorbed into the NATO umbrella.

That might be a truncated Ukraine with the eastern provinces ceded to the Russians or it might be a restored Ukraine including Crimea. But whatever it is will become part of NATO. But only after fighting stops.

This is really the evidence that Putin has already lost. Sure he might end up with a bit more territory to rule and a few million more people to immiserate, but his main aim of keeping NATO at arm's length is already nought.

Finland, within walking distance of St Petersburg is now a member. Sweden any time now. Trip-wire troop placements are now situated in the Baltic nations. Putin's lost.

While on the actual fighting, Armchair asserts that "Ukraine is being annihilated."
Let's just ponder some of AC's other assertions. Only last year he told us that Odessa would fall within a month. Yet now Kherson is liberated and Odessa seemingly safe.

Oh and remember when Bakhmut fell? AC assured us that this would lead to a Russian breakout and a series of other defeats for Ukraine. Well, to be fair to AC, there was a Russian break-out after Bakhmut - the Wagner group broke-out toward Moscow.

AC believes whatever current Russian propaganda tells him and then treats it as fact because, according to him, Russians (eg Lavrov) wouldn't lie. Dear oh dear.

BTW, Zelensky knew that he wouldn't be admitted to NATO yet, despite his 'efforts'. But this was a bargaining chip, as in, 'If you won't let me join, at least give me a sh!t load more ammo". Seemingly it worked.

One can think of the Cuban missile crisis. The US and the USSR went to the brink of nuclear war because the Russian presence in Cuba was unacceptable to the US. I think the US was correct in finding the Russian presence in Cuba unacceptable. I think the Russians are also correct in objecting to NATO's presence on their borders. The Bay of Pigs fiasco was the US attempt to eliminate Castro completely.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is similar to the wrongness of the Bay of Pigs fiasco only on a much larger scale. The US had sense enough not to follow up on the Bay of Pigs with similar efforts. So far, there is no similar display of sense from Putin.

The matter might be resolved by a recognition that Russia has a legitimate interest in objecting to a hostile presence on their borders as the United States had a legitimate interest in not having a hostile presence near their borders. That recognition could include the recognition of Ukraine's existence as an independent country but not a member of NATO.

Thanks for your views thus far.

Right or wrong I admit that it concerns mw greatly as
to what Putin is going to do next regarding the war
with Ukraine. I would have thought that allowing
Ukraine to join NATO would have provided Ukraine a
safeguard against Russia's further continuation of
the war and attacks. It appears that the member states
of NATO prefer not to risk any further confrontation
with Russia. But surely this will come anyway?

It would be a shame if Ukraine lost the historic
chance to join NATO. This would be a crime against
the millions of Ukrainians who are fighting for their
independence from Russia. Therefore for Ukraine, its
accession to NATO would not only guarantee the
country's security but it would also be an effective
strategy for maintaining independence.

Surely Russia's aggression should have opened Europe's
eyes and the door has to be left open for Ukraine to
join NATO.

NATO also needs a big country like Ukraine - who has
proven that they can protect European borders from
possible future invasions. After all isn't Ukraine
part of Europe and shouldn't Europe be united?

Finally, a step towards the right decision:

http://defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3455199/leaders-agree-to-expedite-ukraines-nato-membership/#

Foxy wrote:

“It would be a shame if Ukraine lost the historic
chance to join NATO. This would be a crime against
the millions of Ukrainians who are fighting for their
independence from Russia. Therefore for Ukraine, its
accession to NATO would not only guarantee the
country's security but it would also be an effective
strategy for maintaining independence.”

NATO is a military alliance. It is not a cure for all ills. Ukraine can join the European Union which is not a military alliance. Ukraine is fighting for independence from Russia. Accession to NATO means that if NATO is at war with Russia, Ukraine is on the other side. We live in a complex world. It is made darker and more threatening by nations lining up in military alliances.

More important than the independence of Ukraine is the freedom of the individuals that make up the country of Ukraine. This freedom depends on Ukraine being a democratic country with equal rights for all not on its status vis a vis Russia.

Well we are ALREADY in World-War-III and Ukraine has ALREADY been admitted as a de-facto NATO member.

The rest are tactics which are best left to the experts.

As for the use of nuclear weapons, an all-out nuclear war using 100's if not 1000's of nuclear warheads is yesterday's fear. With advancements in mathematics and automation that were not yet available during the cold war, the nuclear phase of this war is likely going to be more of a statistical nature, resulting in only a dozen or two nuclear warheads actually exploding. While this can be devastating for some, it will not have a major effect on human population, so further corrections will still be needed in future.

Dear Foxy,

Putin authorised the invasion and could order the army out of Ukraine at any time and have no risk of Russia being attacked. As AC pointed out (and is often repeated of Russian telly with great relish), Russia has the means to inflict nuclear devastation on western nations. When I hear western leaders boasting of how they could wipe Russia from the map with a nuclear blitzkrieg I might develop a distaste for "US imperialism". Until then I am grateful for the support given to a fledgling democracy against unprovoked genocide and obliteration.

As for AC's assessment of the conflict, note that a commander of Russia's southern defensive lines just got dismissed for raising concerns about the robustness of the Russian defensive lines. I share AC's despair at the horrors of the conflict, but I have more optimism for Ukraine's chances, noting that Ukraine is becoming increasingly effective at eliminating the Russian artillery which has been the main obstacle for Ukraine in the conflict thus far.

Dear David,

Ukraine's accesstion to NATO is supported by the
vast majority of the country's population according
to a poll conducted by the Rating Group on March 1st.
76% of Ukrainians support this decision. The highest
figure since Ukraine achieved independence in 1991.
Moreover Russia's aggression has opened Europe's
eyes therefore that is the reason being left open
for Ukraine to join NATO.

It is also obvious that the Russian Federation
is prepared to attack only those who are left alone
to defend themselves. This is the core of Putin's
"security assurances" to Ukraine, NATO and the US
to abandon Eastern Europe to its fate as a mark
of respect for Russia.

Despite the Russian Defense Ministry's promises not
to shoot at people or civilian targets thousands of
innocent Ukrainians have already been killed by
Russian weapons and shelling. Hundreds of thousands of
people have been forced to flee their homes for security
and basic survival.

Russian occupying troops are responsible for the
shelling of residential areas in Kharkiv, Mariupol, and
Chernihiv, the destruction of kindergartens and schools
and the fire on Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant.

However, war could have been avoided if Russia had
threatened not only Ukraine but all the member states of
the alliance at once. Russia's behaviour is military
aggression. Therefore approaching NATO makes sense.

Dear Fester,

I too am optimistic about Ukraine's chances of
survival and am horrified at Putin's actions.
Hopefully, Putin will not succeed and Freedom
will prevail.

The Russian people must stand up and do what is right
not only for themselves bu the rest of humanity.

Dear David,

You wrote, "Ukraine is fighting for independence from Russia.".
That statement is false. Putin probably shares Kim Jong Un's fear that North Korea's citizens might see how the other half is living and ask "Why not us?".

This Russian blogger asks Russian citizens how much they earn a month:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPmXMFqU1xw&t=216s

Terror and misinformation is how authoritarian kleptocrats maintain their power.

Security in our daily lives is key to our well being.
NATO'S purpose is to guarantee the freedom and security
if its members. It currently has 31 member countries.

Nato promotes democratic values and enables members to
consult and co-operate on defence and security-related issues
to solve problems, build trust, and in the long-run prevent
conflict. NATO is committed to the peaceful resolution of
disputes. If diplomatic efforts fail, it has the military
power to undertake crisis management operations.

These are carried out under the collective defence clause of
NATO'S founding treaty or under a United Nations mandale
in cooperation with other countries and international
organisations.

Hundreds of officials as well as civilians and military experts
come to NATO Headquarters each day to exchange information,
share ideas, and help prepare decisions when needed, in
co-operation with national delegates and the staff at NATO
Headquarters.

The following link explains the history of NATO:

http://nato.int/cps/en/natohq/declassified_139339.htm

Hey mhaze,
"That might be a truncated Ukraine with the eastern provinces ceded to the Russians or it might be a restored Ukraine including Crimea."

- Not might be, will be.
(And the more the West kicks and screams the more Russia will take.
'Restore Crimea', not going to happen.

>>While on the actual fighting, Armchair asserts that 'Ukraine is being annihilated.'
Not just me saying it.
Col. Macgregor: Ukraine is being ANNIHILATED (Exclusive Interview)
http://youtu.be/ZtXpKYJ3tI8

Does he look Russian to you mhaze, he was a tank commander in Iraq.
You can all say I'm a shill for Russian propaganda or whatever, but what the morons don't realise is I get my info just as much from Western sources, just not the ones you dingbats listen to.

To think they won't lie to us is riduculous.
- WMD's in IRAQ, anyone remember COVID?
Feck my gf's cousin is in the morgue right now, died of blood clot after covid shots, aged 49
Autopsy done yesterday, finger of blame goes to 'diabetes'

YOU DO REALISE THAT PUTIN OFFERED PEACE LAST APRIL AND THE WEST SCUTTLED IT?
All he asked for was acceptance of Crimea, Autonomy for the Luhansk and Donetsk Peoples Republics, and the security assurances of neutrality from being Western aligned (NATO)?
- No one had to effing die after the first month after the invasion.
THE WEST WANTED TO ESCALATE!
THEY PUT AN END TO THE NEGOTIATIONS BECAUSE THEY WERE CERTAIN THIS ADVENTURE WOULD LEAD TO PUTINS OUSTING

This has always been about conquest and looting of Russia, it's not even about Ukraine, I seriously don't think you lot comprehend that.

(Empowering the Ukrainian Nazis is no different than empowering the Mujahadeen or any of the other completely messed up situations the US has historically created AS A MATTER OF POLICY BTW)

Building up NATO, profiteering off the military industrial complex, removing Putin, installing a US puppet ruler, subjagating the Russian people with Marxist western liberalism, chopping Russia up into small microstates and looting every resource, industry and aspect of wealth in the 21% landmass of the Russian Federation owned by the Russian people.
(not to mention Ukrainian coup itself and exploitation of such to western financial interests as a added bonus)

I remember talking to you all especially during Covid, I told you all I was unvaxxed and proud of it
- And the amount of crap I got for it.
- Guilt, shamed, abuse -
There was just no talking to any of you reasonably about it because you already believe what you believe.

I'm not sorry for the positions I hold.
I add to the forum in bringing alternative ideas and information.

If you all think I'm the enemy then you're looking in the wrong direction.

This is a failed adventure (fools errand) by US neoconservatives and the complicity of their western vassal states - who wish to exert their global hegemony on a planetary basis, that is rule over everything!

Why the hell do you think they've got the gaul to try and put NATO on China's doorstep?

Until you lot comprehend that, there's no getting through to any of you!

In any case, US weapons as well as military training is rubbish anyway.
Good for goat herders and blowing up weddings and funerals, but not REAL WARS.

In war games, the US loses EVERY TIME against China.
Keep that in mind when supporting confronting China
- And keep in mind the US is out of weapons,
(that's why they want more NATO contributions)

Remember me telling you this yesterday?
'Troop morale in the toilet'
'They know they are being sent to die'

- Well I'm vindicated.
Maybe you should go and offer your life Foxy, since you seem to expect others to offer theirs for you?

Disappointment on Ukraine front line over NATO meeting
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/disappointment-on-ukraine-front-line-over-nato-meeting/news-story/5b081d171908a1b8f02480c17d51d435

I wonder if you went to Ukraine and asked the family members of the dead and maimed what they think, I wonder what they would say.

Do you care about lines on a map, or would you rather have your father, your husband, you son returned to you unharmed.

Or do you care more about lines on a map that you would see your father, husband and son left to rot where he fell and eating to the bone by scavanging animals.

Look here's a head still in a helmet and the bones scattered around.
Pretend that's your father, husband or son.

http://twitter.com/squatsons/status/1679208983150878721

Would you be willing to commit your father, husband or son to this potential fate, for lines on a map or your hate for Russia and Putin?
There is a foreign legion you know if you all feel so strongly then go there and sign up.

I support an end to this war now.
Negotiated settlement, and new security guarantees.

Maybe you like that stuff?Maybe you liked seeing all those Ukrainians die trying to cross a minefield?

I don't hate Putin, Zelensky or even Biden or Albo that much that I'm willing to see a million dead and maimed just to try to get rid of them.
You and the others here obviously do.

It's time you people woke up.
There's more than enough dead already without asking for more.

Dealing with Putin is like dealing with the Devil AC. That is why there is a war. But better red than dead eh? Or as Mel Brooks once quipped:

Don't be stupit, be a schmarty. Come unt join ze Nazi Pardy!

AC,

"You can all say I'm a shill for Russian propaganda or whatever, but what the morons don't realise is I get my info just as much from Western sources, just not the ones you dingbats listen to."

So are these the sources that told you that the Ukrainians were trying to ban the Russian language? You know the claim that I forced you to admit was mere Russian propaganda.

Are these the sources that told you Odessa would be the next to fall?

Are they the sources that told you there's be a massive break-out after the fall of Bakhmut?

Great sources you've got there AC. But if they tell you what you want to hear then all good.

"YOU DO REALISE THAT PUTIN OFFERED PEACE LAST APRIL AND THE WEST SCUTTLED IT?"

Yes basically Putin said that if you give him everything he wants, he'll stop fighting!! For now!!

"Do you care about lines on a map, or would you rather have your father, your husband, you son returned to you unharmed."

You go on as though only Ukrainians are dying here. Ask all those same questions about Russian mothers and fathers. What you really demand is that one side stop fighting so that the side you favour wins by default. But it won't be over because it never is with expansionist states. At some point someone, somewhere has to say this far and no further.

I first heard about the 'banning of the Russian language' issue back in 2014, just after the coup, I remember seeing the news reports of it through whatever youtube videos I was watching at the time, and in any case, it's just one small detail, it doesn't change the 'bigger picture' issues.
- Putin opposed Ukraine becoming a part of NATO back in 2008 after it was first mentioned at the NATO Bucharest meeting in 2008.
- America has it's red lines and security interests, but it disregards other nations red lines and security interests.
If Russia or China started building military bases in Mexico, the US would go bat shite crazy over it.
- But if some other country reasonably says we don't want your nukes on our doorstep, the US says screw you we don't give a crap what you say.
This attitude is a huge part of how we got to where we are and I don't support it regardless of the language issue.

As for Odessa, Putin's not done yet.
Who knows what Russian plans are for when the Ukrainian military collapses, they will take whatever they want.
NATO's in no position to fight back anyway, but they do have nukes and the loser would resort to using them, Putin wants to avoid that scenario entirely.

"Are they the sources that told you there's be a massive break-out after the fall of Bakhmut?"
- No that was just me actually, the Russian plan was to just grind down the AFU slowly, and many Russians oppose this slow pace, the issue itself is a large part of the conflict between Wagner and Shoigu / Gerasimov.

These would be your sources.
http://twitter.com/saintjavelin/status/1678495623308275727
wishful thinking mate...

"Yes basically Putin said that if you give him everything he wants, he'll stop fighting!! For now!!"

Go back to 2008, he wanted security guarantees
NO NATO for Ukraine, all of this could've been avoided.
But now the Wests word can't be trusted after Minsk anyway.
Russia will take steps to ensure their own security themselves, end of story.
- They won't rely on trust anymore.

"Ask all those same questions about Russian mothers and fathers."
Yeh that's fair but still, Russia lost 27 million people in WWII, Putin's been vindicated in saying the West's an existential threat to Russia, by the Wests own actions, Russians support Putin in much greater unity than any of our western nations.

I'm the one saying all this needless killing needs to stop, but Russia isn't planning on doing so until it's goals are reached.
Ukrainian Nazi government and the poor Ukrainian conscripts, well this is just the way it's going to go.
America should've listened 15 years ago when Putin said Ukraine NATO was a red line.
The US was well aware of Russia's position and they disregarded it.
And we have Assange to thank for the release of diplomatic cable that proves it so.
http://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html

I've told you all this stuff so many times over the years already.
Every 5 minutes some poor fool is dying because of it, and it all could've been avoided if not for a belligerent West.

You all think I'm a shill for Russian propaganda but you all fell for the Wests.
You're all shills of the Bankers, Military industrial complex, Neoconservative warmongers for America's 'We rule the world and make the rules' global hegemonic attitude towards others.
America doesn't care about democracy or the Ukrainian people.
Ukrainians (and their lives and country) are just tools being used to try to undermine Russia, so that US troops don't have to die doing it, as a direct confrontation between Russia and the US wouldn't be popular.

The US says the number one threat to the US is sovereign citizens.
So why else would it put Ukrainian NAZI nationalists into power?
It's not about Ukraine or democracy, it's always been about Russia, money and global hegemony.

Before you all criticise me, try listening to someone who has a far greater knowledge than I.
You'll hear many of the things I've stated echoed by someone way smarter than myself.

http://youtu.be/x8Fs1IyAKYA

Then ask yourselves who amongst you claims to know better?
Also ask who the people are that are lying to you.

I've been trying to tell you all for years, but you just refuse to listen.
If you don't want to listen that's fine;
- but I'm getting tired of repeating myself against all you know-all know-nothings.
Go back and keep lapping up the total bullcrap you're constantly being fed.
- And to which you all so foolishly keep on going back for more.

AC,

you wrote: "it's [The banning of Russian]just one small detail, it doesn't change the 'bigger picture' issues."

No argument. But it doe show your propensity to be led down the garden path. You believed it, you told me, because Lavrov had said it and you couldn't imagine him lying. But I proved he was. A more honest observer would then start to wonder what else was being lied about. But you just kept on believing everything else. In other words, everything the Russians say is true unless proven false....everything the Ukrainians say is false unless proven true. This is not the path to understanding.

AC, you might notice that I make no predictions about the war or the final outcome. I, of course, follow the threads of the battles and the strategy, but I've studied more than enough history over the last 50 years to know that outside observers can never hope to pierce the fog of war. Both sides are lying. Propaganda abounds. Thinking you can see through that via twitter et al is plain bonkers.

You've made moral judgements about Russia's right to determine policy for its neighbours - deciding who can and can't join others for mutual defence. I make a different moral judgement. In my view, Russia, under the current leadership, has shown itself to be expansionist and avarice. Therefore nations like Ukraine, the Baltics and Finland have the right to defend themselves against that. Whining that if the US can do it the Russia can do it probably doesn't make much play in the coffee shops of Vilnius or Helsinki.

If, as you claim, Putin just wants to stop NATO from reaching his doorstep, then he's already lost. NATO is already there. I've driven from St Peterburg to the Finish boarder. Its about 100 miles. Stopping Ukraine from joining NATO is now superfluous as regards Putin's war aims if those were his war aims. But they weren't. Reestablishment of the Russian western empire is the aim. Its now also out of reach but the erstwhile victims will still insure themselves for the future.

Dear mhaze,

You've given us the best summary of the situation that
I've read thus far, Thank You!

Hi AC,

You have linked Macgregor many times. He regularly makes false and misleading claims which are used by Russian media.

https://www.polygraph.info/a/fact-check-how-russia-uses-retired-us-colonel-s-ukraine-misinformation-for-domestic-propaganda-/6972765.html

Putin argues that if only his concerns were allayed, there would be no conflict. That is the argument of a terrorist, and Putin has such a reputation for dishonesty that diplomacy is pointless with him.

The decision to prosecute a war in Ukraine is Putin's choice alone, at least while his army is able to hold back the Ukrainians.

Dear Fester,

Hopefully the Russian people will eventually rise up
and get rid of the tyrant who's also causing them so
much harm.

War is probably never good guys against bad guys. The chief determinant (not the only one) of which army you serve in is which side of a national boundary are you a citizen. In WW2 democratic Finland was on the side of the Nazis. The US army was segregated as black and white soldiers were in separate units. The present war in Ukraine is no exception. The war probably could have prevented by having Ukraine committed to neutrality between Russia and NATO, but it's too late for that now.

It's hard to be neutral when your country is
being invaded and your people are being
murdered, tortured and killed all because a
tyrant wants the old empire back. No wonder
nearby countries want to protect themselves
and their borders.

Dear Foxy,

Neutrality for Ukraine is a matter of the past. It is not a present option. Ukraine and Russia are at war. In the present:

1. Prevent a wider war.
2. End the carnage.

Building up NATO can be a step to a wider war. That would not be in our interest.

Dear David,

So what's the solution? Giving Putin what he wants?

Ukraine does not want this war.
They did not start it. They were invaded.

Putin wants Ukraine.

The war will continue until he gets what he wants.

NATO is the only deterrent Ukraine and its neighbours
have.

The Russian people need to make a choice.

Dear Foxy,

Maybe, there is no just solution. Maybe, there is only a least bad solution. Giving Putin what he wants would not be good. Keeping fighting to deny him what he wants would not be good either. There may not be a good solution - only a least bad one. There may be no way to avoid more suffering and more injustice.

Ukraine's fate was sealed when it surrendered its nuclear arsenal. Functional democracies are correct in providing Ukraine with weapons. Nato countries rightly conclude that supporting Ukraine is the best way to stop Russia prosecuting illegal wars of terror against other nations on its borders.

Imagining that the war could have been prevented with diplomacy is an insult to the myriad of officials who have made great efforts toward finding peaceful solutions with Putin for many years, only to be repeatedly betrayed and confounded by unprovoked Russian aggression.

"You've given us the best summary of the situation that
I've read thus far, Thank You!"

Thanks Foxy....much appreciated.

Ukraine can never be neutral. Its been fought ever since Darius's invasion of Scythia in the 6th century BC and probably long before that.

Firstly, it is resource rich in having some of the best farmland on the planet.

Secondly, due to the vicissitudes of history, it is stuck between competing powers. Pretty much ever since the Rus peoples first arrived in the region they've craved control of the steppes and have indeed, for much of that time, had such control. Ukraine is either a vassal of Russia or a member of an alliance that opposes Russia. Being neutral isn't an option.

(For this same reason Poland can't be neutral which they found to their cost in 1939. It's also the reason, for what its worth, why Australia can't be neutral).

There are only two outcomes here - defeat for Russia and all that entails for the regime; or defeat for Ukraine and a truncated eastern province, nominally independent but controlled out of the Kremlin much like Belorussia.

That's not to say a negotiated end isn't possible but the terms of the peace will depend on which side decides victory is no longer possible.
If Ukraine sees that it can't dislodge the Russians and European assistance is waning, they'll be forced to cede the western provinces and a de facto subordination to Russia. If Russia sees that it can't hold it's current gains without massive losses of life and treasure, it will be forced to cede those gains (but not Crimea) and accept that Ukraine will join the western alliance.

The result remains very much in the air. But either way Russia has lost in that it has united the Europeans as never before against itself and been forced to accept a subordinate place in its Chinese alliance.

Thanks for your thoughts and comments.

Putin has little regard for his people and human
life in general. He's ready to throw as many
bodies onto the battlefield as needed.

Ukraine will continue to defy the odds once again and
attempt to defeat the Russian army. This as we've
seen will come at a price. Russia has responded to
past advances and Western aid by indiscriminately
targeting civilians and bombing infrastructures.
We're going to see more of the same.

I've read that in Moscow a cartoon appeared of
Putin - asking:

"So what else do I have to do for you guys to
finally start rebelling?"

This after he began to mobilize younger people into the
armed forces.

Ukrainian President Zelensky decided to appeal to the
Russian people in their native language on television.

He said:

"50,000 Russian soldiers died in this war in six months. Tens
of thousands are wounded or maimed. Want more? No?
then protest. Fight back. Run away or surrender to Ukrainian
captivity. These are the options for you to survive."

Sooner or later Russians will have to confront what their
country has done.

We can only hope that it will be sooner.

Dear Foxy,

You wrote: "Sooner or later Russians will have to confront what their
country has done."

Most of the people of the US, my country, have never confronted what the US did in Vietnam, and I doubt they ever will. I don't think the Russian people are different. The German people have had to confront what the Nazis and others did during the war because they lost the war and were occupied.

Dear David,

On the whole great powers don't often admit their mistakes.
Be it the My Lai massacre in Vietnam, or the behaviour of
Ben Roberts-Smith in Afghanistan (still under investigation),
or Russia's behaviour in Ukraine.

However, not only has Ukraine withstood Putin's assault but it has
managed to rally massive international support and keep military
aid coming. An unprecedented barrage of sanctions has turned
Russia into an international pariah.

Authoritarian leaders such as Putin always have to worry
about civil uprisings and will go to great lengths to
communicate that all is well and that they are super-competent
leaders.

That's part and parcel of how they stay in power and demonize
any opposition into believing resistance is futile.

If we stop and think about the authoritarian need to signal
invulnerability, Putin's myriad efforts to communicate
his feats of strength make sense.

Whatever risks an American President faces in acknowledging a
mistake, these risks increase by an order of magnitude in
Putin's world.

Which is why we'll probably be waiting a long, long, time
before the Russian President will ever admit he messed up
or allow any of the Russian people to tell him he did.

But one can live, and hope and pray that the Russian people
will wake up and demand change.

Dear Foxy,

You wrote:

"But one can live, and hope and pray that the Russian people
will wake up and demand change."

Change can come, but it will require more than demands from the Russian people. There is no mechanism by which they can peacefully express their demands. It requires violence, and violence is more dangerous when there are nuclear weapons available.

Zelensky apparently told Zaluzhnyi that he's got till November to make military gains, and then he has to negotiate. If so, maybe that's when western weapon supply will dry up completely and a year prior to the US presidential elections.

mhaze,
"But it does show your propensity to be led down the garden path."
No I don't think so, as I told you earlier I didn't get the info from Lavrov in 2022. Alternative news sources reported on it back in 2014.
I just used Lavrov's statement in 2022 to put some backing to what I'd already heard myself years prior.

"In other words, everything the Russians say is true unless proven false....everything the Ukrainians say is false unless proven true. This is not the path to understanding."

You're probably not wrong there, however it's not without merit.
Ukrainians claims seem to be far less reliable than Russian ones.

"AC, you might notice that I make no predictions about the war or the final outcome. I, of course, follow the threads of the battles and the strategy, but I've studied more than enough history over the last 50 years to know that outside observers can never hope to pierce the fog of war. Both sides are lying."

Well, 'All things being equal' I guess...
- but only if they ARE equal, right?
I wouldn't disagree that 'The first casualty of war is the truth'

Foxy,
"Hopefully the Russian people will eventually rise up
and get rid of the tyrant who's also causing them so
much harm."

Do you understand how ridiculous that is?
It's as if you think the Russian people quietly despise their president and that there's a Russian secret police agent quietly holding a gun to the back of everyone's heads.

Putins approval rating (from May 2023) is 82%
http://www.statista.com/chart/28383/putin-approval/

In contrast, Albanese's approval rating is 36%
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-06-27/australians-begin-to-turn-on-albanese-as-inflation-rates-bite#xj4y7vzkg

Fester,
"The decision to prosecute a war in Ukraine is Putin's choice alone"
- Just as the decision to encourage protests, back opposition groups, manipulate foreign elections, overthrow elected leaders and install puppet rulers is the United States choice alone?

"Ukrainian President Zelensky decided to appeal to the
Russian people in their native language on television."

It might interest you to know that Russian is also shoe shine boy Zelenskys native language too Foxy.

mhaze,
"You've made moral judgements about Russia's right to determine policy for its neighbours - deciding who can and can't join others for mutual defence. I make a different moral judgement. In my view, Russia, under the current leadership, has shown itself to be expansionist and avarice."

What in Georgia and Ukraine, after the US involved itself in these nations domestic politics?

- Key point 'US intervened first' for the sole purpose of ring fencing Russia? Why we not act?
The US certainly wouldn't if China or Russia involved themselves in Canada Mexico or Cuba, hell the US would say Pakistan or even Antarctica is a part of their national security interests.

"Therefore nations like Ukraine, the Baltics and Finland have the right to defend themselves against that."
- The US itself built up the Ukrainian military after the coup in 2014.

"If, as you claim, Putin just wants to stop NATO from reaching his doorstep, then he's already lost. NATO is already there. I've driven from St Peterburg to the Finish boarder. Its about 100 miles. Stopping Ukraine from joining NATO is now superfluous as regards Putin's war aims if those were his war aims."
- That's a valid argument I guess, but they will pay a price for it.
2% of GDP to NATO and a need to now spend an extra few billion a year stationing troops on the border to counter the ones Russia placed there to counter their new NATO status.

Money that could've been spend on schools and hospitals etc.
I guess the citizens always have to pay a price for what idiot politicians do hey...

They will regret it in a few years if NATO crumbles.

US promised Zelensky they could defend Ukraine, and that they would be there 'as long as it takes'.
Zelensky was going to negotiate a settlement in Istanbul in April last year, initial documents had already been signed.
Until Boris Johnson flew to Kiev and talked him out of it, convinced him the West had his back for as long as it takes.
Well it seems 'as long as it takes' is until November, then Ukraine is being cut loose.
Told you no-one was coming to help them, maybe Lithuania and the Poles might send some troops in, who knows.
Biden's got investigations to deal with at home and can't afford to lose the election or he'll be in big trouble.

What Russia will offer Zelensky now if he negotiates will be a whole lot less that if he had've done so last April;
- Minus half a million dead and wounded Ukrainians.

Russia stated that many times, and they have lost people too.
But what concessions will Russia be willing to offer now?
Not much, they don't want a frozen conflict, like in Korea.
They have set goals and security interests they intend to reach.

And all of this, it's not just military and political, there's also an economic component as well.
- Ukrainian gas fields.
The plan was to cut Russian gas from Europe (hurting Russia economically) and replacing it with gas from Ukrainian gas fields.
For that reason I wouldn't be surprised if Putin takes Kharkiv before the year is out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_in_Ukraine
http://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/t22zkc/map_detailing_the_largely_untapped_gas_and_oil/
(It's always about oil and gas and pipelines)

UN asks Putin to extend Black Sea grain deal in return for SWIFT access
http://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/un-chief-sends-putin-proposal-keep-black-sea-grain-deal-alive-2023-07-12/
- So much for the sanctions, who needs who?
And btw, Russia doesn't want payment in the dollar anymore.

Hey Fester,
"You have linked Macgregor many times. He regularly makes false and misleading claims which are used by Russian media."

A lot of people got it wrong.
General Mark Milley Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the highest-ranking and most senior military officer in the United States Armed Forces said if Russia went into Ukraine that Russia would prevail in 3 days, the CIA said it would be over in 1 week.
- This is why the came to the assumption that the Russian military was weak and incapable, this is why they convinced Zelensky not to negotiate and that US had their back and for 'as long as it takes'

But that assumption has been proven wrong.

They also thought they were going to destroy Russia economically.
Sanctions, Sanctions, Sanctions.
They said Russia's economy would be destroyed, that an economic crisis would lead to a political crisis and Putins ousting.

THEY ALL GOT IT HORRIBLY WRONG.
- Now they look for a way out.

It's one thing to say MacGregor got it wrong, but if you look at the bigger picture - THEY ALL GOT IT WRONG;
- And here we are...
Nearly half a million dead and half a million wounded later.

A few people here have been consistently saying I fall for Russian propaganda.
- Where the opposite is true, they fell for the western propaganda.
So I'm going to keep posting Westerners who have been trying to tell the truth the whole time...
But you lot listen to the wrong westerners;
- And thus, their message fell on deaf ears.

How will the war in Ukraine end? What will Russia’s strategy be?
http://www.youtube.com/live/Qglxww40pTs?feature=share

Albert Einstein is often quoted as having said: "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones".

Remember that folks, Einstein was no fool.

Hi AC,

Macgregor has consistently made underestimations whereas western intelligence initially overestimated Russian capability. What was subsequently observed was that Russian forces were badly coordinated and organised. That has changed considerably, but the three stooges keep removing competent commanders much to Ukrainian approval.

The current objectives of the Ukrainians are electronic warfare systems (mainly jamming equipment), heavy ground equipment, and mines. If the Ukrainians can destroy the jamming equipment they can then use their drones.

Russia has a huge army and huge reserves of equipment, but its resources are not limitless. The history of warfare also suggests that industrial/technical capacity is the decider, and Russian industrial/technical capacity is dwarfed by the western nations supporting Ukraine.

Lets look at the facts. Not only has Ukraine withstood
Putin's assault but it's managed to rally massive
international support and keep military aid coming.

Ukrainians have emerged as a united and widely admired
nation under the strong leadership of President Volodymyr
Zelensky.

Many Russian-speaking Ukrainians have abandoned the language
they now view as belonging to the enemy.

NATO has been revitalised. Sweden and Finland previously
neutral states now belong to NATO. The European Union has
cut oil and gas imports from Russia. And an unprecedented
barrage of sanctions has turned Russia into an international
pariah.

News media and international journalists tell us that:

Putin is waging another battle at home. He's intensifying
the country's information blockade in an effort to control
the hearts and minds of the country's own citizens.

Draconian new censorship laws are targeting any media that's
still operating outside the controls of the Kremlin and
most independent journalists have left the country. A
digital iron curtain has been re-inforced, shutting
Russia off from Western news and social media sites.

We've seen on the news how -
Authorities round up thousands in crackdowns of anti-war
protests and a culture of fear has descended on Russian
cities and towns. Typical authoritarian tactics.

However cracks are starting to appear.
Savvy internet users skirt state restrictions to access
dispatches and pictures from the frontlines. And as the
country turns towards mobilization to boost its suffering
campaign - it's struggling to contain the personal impact
that this war is having on its citizens.

The pendulum of public opinion has to slowly begin to
swing away from the Kremlin. Now that the conflict is
knocking on their door - we should start to see a shift.

Putin may be ready and willing to throw as many bodies as
it takes onto the battlefield - but will the Russian
people continue to allow him to do that?

A revitalised NATO and an unflagging Western support will help
but it is still up to both Ukraine to defeat the Russian army
and for the Russian people to protest against the war.

Armchair,

When I wrote "But it does show your propensity to be led down the garden path" you asserted "No I don't think so, as I told you earlier I didn't get the info from Lavrov in 2022. Alternative news sources reported on it back in 2014.
I just used Lavrov's statement in 2022 to put some backing to what I'd already heard myself years prior."

Well here's your original post where you specifically say that you can't imagine that Lavrov would lie.... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=10081#345730

But even after I'd proven that indeed Lavrov and all the others who'd talked about this were lying, and you'd conceded that, it made no difference to your attitude. You just went on believing anything and everything you were told by one side. Strangely when I mock your attitude of believing everything the Russians say and disbelieving everything the Ukrainians say, you agree that that's what you do. Any student of history knows, not thinks but knows, that is just bonkers.

Whatismore, we won't know for years where the lies were and where the truth was. The Katyn massacre happened in 1940. The Russians blamed the Nazis, the Nazis blamed the Russians, the western allies sided with the Russians. It took 40 years to get the truth. Expect something similar here.

But if you think you understand what's going on based upon what one side is saying, you're delusional.

AC wrote: " Key point 'US intervened first' for the sole purpose of ring fencing Russia? Why we not act?
The US certainly wouldn't if China or Russia involved themselves in Canada Mexico or Cuba, hell the US would say Pakistan or even Antarctica is a part of their national security interests."

Well you missed my point. In a realpolitik world, sure Russia will attempt to defend what it thinks are its interests by dominating its neighbours, just as the US would. But from the point of view of those neighbours, they are perfectly right to decide who they'd prefer to be dominated by - Russia or the western alliance. That they've all chosen against the Russians ought to tell the disinterested observer something about Russia and its propensity to enslave and immiserate those it dominates. The disinterested observer - of course I exclude you from that group.

When Putin rose to power, Russia was a democracy, albeit an imperfect one. Now its a authoritarian, totalitarian state with few personal liberties and declining living standards. It's hardly surprising that the small states on its boarder aren't thrilled about being in the economic and political orbit of such a state.

You base everything on claims that what's allowed to the US is also allowed to Russia. But you utterly leave out the actual frontline states who bear the brunt of this 'fairness' doctrine. They aren't interested in claims Russia should be allowed to do to them what you imagine the US would do to others. They are interested in their own personal liberties and economic well-being. And they've spoken. It's now just a matter of getting Russia to understand that.

After all that. Ukraine isn't Sweden. It's democracy was/is questionable. It's economy was corrupt and inefficient and at war's end, if retains any liberty those problems will need to addressed if it has aspirations of joining the western alliance. But they won't have that choice is they become yet another slave state of Russian imperialism.

mhaze,

I'm really starting to admire you greatly.

Dear Paul,

«Albert Einstein is often quoted as having said: "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones".

Remember that folks, Einstein was no fool.»

Thank you for this encouraging reminder - I hope Einstein was correct.

---

Dear Mhaze,

I agree with Foxy about your excellent analysis.

Being in America's orbit is undoubtedly better than being in Russian orbit, it is the lesser evil, but why should one have suffer either at all?

Because Putin wants to rebuild Russia's empire and
restore what he sees as Russia's position in the world.
In speeches and essays Putin has made this clear. This
message has echoed down the centuries.

Putin's lengthy speeches justifying his attempted
dismemberment of Ukraine says much about him.
It also contains chilling warnings for the rest of
Europe.

European states must heed these warnings if they
don't want to be the next victims of the Russian
President's imperial ambition. Lets not forget that
he called the collapse of the USSR "The greatest
geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century."

Dear Yuyutsu,

The price of avoiding suffering is death.

The Three Universal Truths of Buddhism: 1. Everything is impermanent and changing 2. Impermanence leads to suffering, making life imperfect 3. The self is not personal and unchanging.

Hi Yuyutsu,

Australia is playing a dangerous game, as is Russia, America, Ukraine, the NATO countries, and many others. America is trying to polarise the world through coercion, economic bludgeoning and political bulling into an American controlled empire of them and us, with the objective of neutralising those that would challenge American world dominance, those specifically meaning China. Australia the ever subservient toady now has no choice other than being an American captive, doing whatever dirty work the bully so commands.

Dear David F.,

Yes, Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism and therefore its philosophy is pretty close, but varies in nuance.

I wonder why you listed only three Universal Truths where Buddhism speaks of four - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths

Since I am not an expert on Buddhism, I can only relate to your statements as they stand:

«1. Everything is impermanent and changing»

Correct. Every THING is impermanent and changing.
Our body is a thing, our relationships are a thing, our money is a thing, our health is a thing, our enjoyment is a thing, our ambitions is a thing, our reputation is a thing, etc. etc., yet WE OURSELVES are not a thing, thus we never change.

«2. Impermanence leads to suffering, making life imperfect»

In a way: the illusion of impermanence leads to the experiences of suffering and imperfection.

Suffering is experienced because being truly infinite and permanent and deep down knowing it, we cannot be satisfied while [mistakenly] experiencing ourselves as finite and imperfect.

«3. The self is not personal and unchanging.»

The words "The self" misleadingly suggest that there is something, some object, which is us. However, there is no such thing.

Indeed I am, Indeed you are, but we are not objects, we are not things, we cannot be described, we cannot be comprehended, we have no parts, we have no properties, we have no limits, we just are.

---

Dear Paul,

«Australia the ever subservient toady now has no choice other than being an American captive, doing whatever dirty work the bully so commands.»

Indeed, it is not a pleasant situation, but that is the lesser evil.

While pursuing our own conscience, we sadly happen to also contribute to corrupt American interests.

What to do? Any practical ideas?

Dear Yuyutsu & Paul1405'

Australia is not a major power, but we are large enough so we cannot be like Andorra and cannot isolate ourselves. The US, China and Russia are all corrupt entities, but, unfortunately, we have to attach ourselves to one of those three. I think Australia had no business getting involved in the war in Vietnam. That was a consequence of our involvement with the US. When England was a major power, Australia got involved in the Boer War as a consequence of Australia's attachment to England. Australia is too large not to be involved and too much a part of the English-speaking world for Australia not to be involved w the USA.

1) The overwhelming cost of war should always matter.
Any country that unilaterally chooses to inflict the
horrors of war on another deserves to be met with
universal and unequivocal condemnation. To be clear -
the war in Ukraine is an unprovoked invasion by Russia.
And the actions of Russia are a clear breach of
international law and the United Nations Charter.

2) There are significant and growing ties between Australia
and Ukraine. Our countries share a strong belief in the
importance of freedom and democracy and there are over 40,000
Australians of Ukrainian descent.

3) What is happening in Ukraine has broader strategic
significance that reaches well beyond the borders of that
country alone. Both Ukraine and Australia - like many small and
medium-sized nations rely upon the rules-based international
order for security and stability.

If might is right, than our countries simply will not prosper
and our place in the world becomes significantly more precious.
Russia's actions clearly challenge the very foundations of
this system.

The direct challenge that Russia's attempted invasion of Ukraine
poses for the rule-based international order means that what is
happening in Ukraine is not just someone else's problem. This is
a moment that needs to unite us all.

(Taken from the following link which explains why what is happening
in Ukraine should matter to every Australian:

http://humanrights.gov.au/about/news/opinions/what-happening-ukraine-should-matter-every-australian

Hi Fester,
"What was subsequently observed was that Russian forces were badly coordinated and organised."

Yes, there is a little bit of truth to that, but it's not the same story the corporate media has been selling all of you.

Firstly, Russia never sent the force it did into Kiev in order to capture the city. It sent the force it did in to force Kiev into negotiations.
- You don't sent a force of 40,000 in to capture a city of 1 million.
In what it set out to do it was successful, it did force Ukraine into negotiations.

Secondly it did not retreat from Kiev because it was becoming militarily overwhelmed.
It retreated from Kiev as a goodwill gesture in respect of those negotiations, as initial agreements had already been signed.
- At which time Boris Johnson flew to Kiev, on behalf of the US and collective West and convinced Zelensky to continue the war, and also gave him assurances, that the West would stand with him 'as long as it takes'.

Why do you think Zelensky was so peeved at the annual NATO conference in Vilnius?
Ukraine was encouraged back in 2008 to apply for NATO membership.
He couldn't even get that out of them at the recent conference.
All he got was further pledges from G7 nations, not NATO.
So much for those assurances.

He's continued this war, gotten half a million men killed and maimed and the west has hung him out to dry.
There's no more weapons, no more tanks, no more ammo, no more nothing.
What is coming is not going to change things.
He has till November then he has to negotiate, and he's gained nothing, lost so much more than what he would've gotten if he'd just negotiated last April.

[Continued - Fester]
Finally, the Ukrainian counter offenses last year were not so much of a success.
The great Kherson counter-offensive was a failure, but it was painted as a success after Russia itself chose to strategically withdraw, there and in Kharkiv, where the Russian withdrawl was much more of a debacle.
Russian soldiers 6 month contracts were up and many didn't renew them, they were spread thin on the ground, and stronger defensive lines had not yet been established.

Take these facts into account and the story of being 'badly coordinated and organised' is significant different than the one the media is sold all of you.

That said yes they were a somewhat badly coordinated and organised in the beginning not so much now, and finally I'd like to remind you that Russia is fighting across a 1000 klm front with hundreds of thousands of troops.

Fighting the Ukrainians but a large part of the military power of over 30 countries, the world has not seen war on this scale for a long time, and Russia has not even declared war, yet.
- It's a special military operation.

mhaze,
I don't know why you're getting your panties all up in a bunch for.

I said "Don't you think that if the Russian foreign minister was openly lying, that people would've called it out?"
- And I still stand by that comment.
I told you I heard the information in 2014, not 2022.
I'm not sure which part of that isn't sinking in.

"But even after I'd proven that indeed Lavrov and all the others who'd talked about this were lying"

You didn't prove squat.
The language laws we looked at dated later were different to what was going in 2014. Ukraine had to change it's stance and rewrite the laws as it was promted to do so by the EU, as it also wanted membership there.

"Strangely when I mock your attitude of believing everything the Russians say and disbelieving everything the Ukrainians say, you agree that that's what you do."
- Yes and I said it's not without merit.
Ukraine lies about everything, follows the script the CIA writes for them like a good little lapdog, they have no choice the US funds the cost of running their government.
If you're going to bloody quote me, don't leave inconvenient parts out.
You want to know about lies go no further than the West, and Covid.

Whatismore, we won't know for years where the lies were and where the truth was.
- Many of the things being said were known to be false at the time, and many have been proven false since.
- It just depends on the quality of the information you're getting.

"But from the point of view of those neighbours, they are perfectly right to decide who they'd prefer to be dominated by - Russia or the western alliance."
Yeah mate, what about the US sponsored coups in Turkey, Georgia and Belarus, AFTER the coup in Ukraine.
Who decides what... the people?
WAKE UP.

[Continued - mhaze]
"When Putin rose to power, Russia was a democracy, albeit an imperfect one."
Go find out the truth.
Those years after the end of the cold war the Russian people STARVED, life expectancy for men had dropped to about 47 years of age, men were drinking themselves to death and many were committing suicide.
It's just the West who sells who sells those years as being all fine and dandy.

"You base everything on claims that what's allowed to the US is also allowed to Russia. But you utterly leave out the actual frontline states who bear the brunt of this 'fairness' doctrine."

Which ones Serbia, Kosovo, Libya, Iraq, Syria
Stop trying to sell me your biased crap.

"But they won't have that choice is they become yet another slave state of Russian imperialism."
- Should've allowed Ukraine to negotiate an end to the conflict last April then.
The US and collective west was writing cheques it's militaries and sanctions can't cash.
- Promises they can't keep.

For all the money they spend each year on military they don't even have enough ammunition to supply.
The US has gone begging to buy HAWK SAM systems back from Taiwan.
It's a freaking joke.

And you have Lindsay Graham and Mitch McConnell bragging this war and all the aid helps America because it goes straight to US jobs and the Military industrial complex, and no US soldiers are dying.

The US is screwed, it's now paying a trillion in interest a year.
- And is relying on China to buy it's bonds to fund it's debt obligations...

Foxy,
"The direct challenge that Russia's attempted invasion of Ukraine
poses for the rule-based international order means that what is
happening in Ukraine is not just someone else's problem. This is
a moment that needs to unite us all."

What a load of feelgood crap.
- Just what you'd expect from our government.

We're not united at all.
Some people are living in the car with their kids while some government ministers live in mansions and have a portfolio of properties.
The consistently low approval rating of western leaders is a symptom of nations divided.

'United' is just a fancy word the government uses to get get us all to go along with whatever they decide in their foreign meetings.
Australian's decide nothing.
- Nothing that actually matters anyway.
It's all been decided by others already.

Australia support international efforts to ensure Putin's
aggression fails and that Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial
integrity prevails. Australia is unwavering in its resolve
to condemn and oppose Russia's actions and to help Ukraine
achieve victory.

Ukraine has demonstrated strength, resilience, and courage in
defending against Russia's unjust invasion. Australia is proud
to be one of the largest non-NATO contributors in support of
Ukraine and will continue to support Ukraine to end the war
on its terms.

As Foreign Minister Penny Wong made clear:

"We pay tribute to the extraordinary courage and resolve
of the Ukrainian people and stand with them."

"Ukrainian families, children, and the elderly have borne
a terrible cost of the Russian invasion and Australia is
providing help to support them."

"Russia cannot be allowed to infringe upon another country's
sovereignty and territorial integrity."

In each Australian city and town there are pro-Ukrainian
demonstrations and fund raisings. People are united in this
cause.

There are "peace" celebrations in support for Ukraine throughout
Europe. My family has recently returned from a trip there.
The support for Ukraine is massive - both here and abroad.

Ukraine had 30,000 serviceman killed in action in the last 6 weeks.
Your support helps create more corpses.

With little regard for his own people and human life
in general - Putin is ready to throw as many bodies
onto the battlefield as needed.

The Ukrainians are the ones desperate to make gains Foxy
They need to show military gains to please their western backers in order to get further weapons shipments.
- Tanks, F-16's, ATACMS
Ukrainians have been taking between 8 to 1 and 10 to 1 losses during the current counteroffensive.
i.e Ukraine loses 1000 men, Russia loses 100.

Ukrainians have been sending their men to die through well prepared minefields and cannot even breach the security zone.
They havent even made it to Russias fortified defensive lines.

See for yourself.
http://twitter.com/OlgaBazova/status/1680285021934960641

A Wall of Steel’: Ukrainian Troops Face Hard Slog in Offensive’s First Days
http://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-achieves-mixed-success-in-counteroffensives-early-battles-says-u-k-e0b40334

Big Win For Russia; 'Ukraine Loses 26,000 Fighters, 3,000 Arms In Counteroffensive' Despite NATO Aid
http://youtu.be/SOo5BdtMKQw

It is said that Ukraine is set to run out of artillery shells entirely in August.

Also Russia has created an entirely new army from recruits and volunteers, they've been training for months, word is they plan to open a new front.

AC,

After I wrote: "But even after I'd proven that indeed Lavrov and all the others who'd talked about this were lying"

He wrote: "You didn't prove squat."

But at the time AC wrote: "Yeah fair enough, I got something wrong"

But it seems that now he's decided he can now safely deny what he had previously admitted. A man of principles is AC <sarc>

Flailing about as his arguments and fondest wishes unravel AC writes: "Yeah mate, what about the US sponsored coups in Turkey, Georgia and Belarus, AFTER the coup in Ukraine.
Who decides what... the people?"

Yes the people. There is something very racist in AC's attitude. Basically what he's saying that these people (be they Turks, Georgians or Ukrainians) are too stupid to know that they are being used by the CI and didn't really want to revolt - they were tricked into it. AC et al think these others are inferior to the white US operatives and can't work out that they are being used (according to AC). It never seems to occur to him that these revolutions were what these people wanted and the US involvement was peripheral - it helped the revolts to succeed but wasn't instrumental in the revolts. This is beyond AC's understanding.

I wrote: ""When Putin rose to power, Russia was a democracy, albeit an imperfect one."
AC responds: "Go find out the truth."

I actually visited Russia more than once in that period. Things weren't great, but no worse than before the fall of the USSR. But that wasn't the point and AC, as usual, fails to get the point. I was simply talking about the democracy - the level of individual freedom. It wasn't perfect when Putin took over but it was there. I did write " albeit an imperfect [democracy]" which it seems went over AC's head. But that is all gone - democracy freedom, and with it living standards. Its unsurprising that other states don't want to experience that.

"The US is screwed, " Yeah dills like you have been telling me that since the 1960s

Dear mhaze,

I wish that I could have visited Russia ages ago - when
it was safer to do so. My Gran was Russian. One of my
daughters-in-law is of Russian ancestry (born here) and
I grew up listening to Russian folktales and songs from
my Gran - as well as her teaching me Russian food recipes
and of course reading Russian history and lit.

I feel so sorry for what's happening to the Russian people
under Putin. All I can do is hope that things will change for
them for the better. But in order for that to happen, they
need to defeat Putin. A revitalised NATO and unflagging
Western support will help Ukraine - but it is still up to
Ukraine to defeat the Russian army - and they would succeed
with the help of the Russian people. The sooner the better.

Putin has erased his country's prosperity in an
irresponsible attempt to build a doomed empire.
The burden of Putin's war on Ukraine will be borne
by average Russian citizens for decades, if not longer.

The damage done to Russian society, the economy, its
military, its political development and its international
reputation will far outlive Putin. He has managed to ruin Russia.

The heavy sanctions imposed on Russia will not be lifted
anytime soon - given the Russian military's brutality.

The war will only really come to an end if the West either
abandons Ukraine or Putin suffers a total defeat.

mhaze, (still going on your violin)

"Yes the people. There is something very racist in AC's attitude. Basically what he's saying that these people (be they Turks, Georgians or Ukrainians) are too stupid to know that they are being used by the CI and didn't really want to revolt - they were tricked into it."

Blah-blah-blah-blah bleh-bleh-bleh-bleh-bleh

Maybe this maight make you backpaddle;
- Probably not, but it's worth a shot.
I'll make fool of your arguments with actual documents.
Try to worm your way out of this one...

http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/pnaec705.pdf

Now answer this for everyone...
Who funded this paper?
Tell everyone where this paper came from
Make sure you say it loud and clear, so everyone can hear.
Now tell everyone the name of this particular paper please

Now go down to page 8.
Tell everyone the question being asked, and the date given please
Tell everyone the percentage for Russian and for Ukrainian

Now go down to page 13 and tell everyone the question being asked
Can you tell us in your own words why you think the funder of this paper might be asking this question?

Now go to the next page, 14.
Tell everyone what the question being asked on this page is please
Now identify for us who the largest percentage of people were and what they chose as their first and second options (for comparison) and the percentages.

Continue over to page 15,
Read out the question and summarise the responses for us please

Now go to page 17
Read out the question and identify the majority, and what there preference was

I'll let you all go through the rest of the paper yourselves...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
Please tell us (using the above link) how long in months was this survey compiled prior to the Maidan please.
Also please remind us who conducted this survey again, and the name of the place identified in this paper

FEEL FREE TO USE CAPS IN YOUR RESPONSE
I wouldn't want anyone to miss the important information you're about to share with us all mhaze

Thoughts, Foxy?

"Putin has erased his country's prosperity in an
irresponsible attempt to build a doomed empire."

It's not true Foxy, Putin pulled the Russian people out of poverty.

"But in order for that to happen, they need to defeat Putin..."
"I wish that I could have visited Russia ages ago - when it was safer to do so."

- Yes, I think it definitely wouldn't be good for you to go there with your current attitude.
It might be something you should work on I think.
It's just that you may not get the welcome you hope for.

Now just one more thing mhaze

Can you answer this one simple question for us all

This is just a really easy YES or NO question, it's not difficult

Please tell us YES or NO, after the Maidan in 2013/2014
Did the new government pass laws to restrict the Russian language?
Say it nice and loud in capitals so everyone can hear the truth.

Well AC that was quite the tantrum there. I guess some people don't like being made to look the fool, especially when their ego outruns their intellect.

AC wrote: "Blah-blah-blah-blah bleh-bleh-bleh-bleh-bleh"
I must admit that had me stumped. I really don't know how to respond to such withering argumentation. So very Socratic in its construct <sarc>.
I'm sure, AC, you think this passes as adult prose...but you'd be wrong.

Now to your survey. I don't know if you've noticed this, but do you realise that this was just a survey of Crimean residents? Quite what you think it has to do with Ukrainian attitudes is unclear. It'd be like survey rural Queenslanders and then 'thinking' their views are those of Australia as a whole. Dumb but very AC.

Somehow AC has convinced himself that the views of Crimeans in 2013 proves that the CIA orchestrated the revolution in the rest of Ukraine in 2014. Dumb but very AC.

Now I don't propose to go through the whole of the survey to explain it to AC, because that'd be futile. But let's just look at one aspect, of which AC makes a big deal for reasons that make no logical sense.

AC commands: "Now go to page 17
Read out the question and identify the majority, and what there (sic) preference was"

OK their preference was to remain in Ukraine. 67% wanted Crimea to remain part of Ukraine in some form. A mere 23% wanted to join Russia. This, incidentally, was an improvement from years earlier where 59% wanted to remain in Ukraine and 33% wanted to join Russia. So Crimeans were becoming more favourable to Ukraine and less enamoured of Russia (who can blame 'em).

So I don't know what AC thought he saw in that survey but it most definitely doesn't help his unresearched claims. Maybe when you throw tantrums, perspective goes out the window.

Again, to help out poor AC, this is a survey in a region that is among the most favourable to Russia. And yet even it didn't want to be reunited with the 'motherland'.

/cont

/cont

Then AC points me to the Wikipedia page on the Euromaidan revolts which doesn't even mention the USA or the CIA (or whatever other bogeyman AC conjures) as being responsible for the revolution!!

In the end, the 2014 revolution was against a government that wanted to move closer to Russia while the people wanted to move closer to Europe. Putin found the views of the people unacceptable and has sought to overturn their decision ever since. That the CIA/USA was probably involved in some way is likely true. But they didn't create the revolution and didn't 'trick' the populace into thinking they wanted to move closers to Europe. That was a genuine outcome of the people's desire for a better life. They are still fighting to protect the right to seek a better life.

AC, playing the school ma'am, demands to know: "Please tell us YES or NO, after the Maidan in 2013/2014 Did the new government pass laws to restrict the Russian language?"

OK NO. They passed laws to make Ukrainian the official language of the nation, but that didn't stop others using whatever language suited their needs, except when dealing with the bureaucracy. Lots of nations have similar laws, including your beloved Russia.

But why are you still prosecuting this. I already proved that the Russians were lying about this language issue. I already proved that you'd fallen for their lies. You already ADMITTED that you'd got the issue wrong. And now you want me to prove it all over again?

Dear mhaze,

Once again I have to admire your patience and Thank You for
setting the record straight.

"Plucking the chicken feather by feather to lesson its
squawking" is how Mussolini described his political power
in Italy in the 1920s. Putin also did not seek to grab
power in a single swoop. Like Mussolini he plucked the
feathers carefully.

We should not equate Russia with the Kremlin.
Many condemn "Russian behaviour" (myself included) and
call for sanctions on Russia when in fact we are talking
about a REGIME that has no democratic mandate from the
Russian people.

Such rhetoric is careless and a generous gift to Putin as
a "defender" of "Russian" interests. Western democracies should
make a distinction both in words and actions. Between the
nature of Russia and its unelected rulers.

What gives me a slither of hope is the anti-war protests in Russia.
They make it clear of the growing number of Russians who
reject the status quo in favour of a more democratic and more
European path

The demographic of the protest movement shows these citizens
represent the future of Russia which is a worrying trend for
the Kremlin and a hopeful one for the country.

My view of AC differs from mhaze and Foxy. I see AC as good bloke with a differing perspective of the world to me, but having many common values and aspirations. I think that all who post here care about life and the world it inhabits, else why would we bother?

As for AC failing some Socratic test, I am of the belief that Socrates seemed far more interested in understanding why people believed what they did and saw arguments more as discussions between friends and colleagues.

The irony of the war in Ukraine is that both sides believe themselves as defenders of unprovoked aggression (in this respect I refer to the hoi poloi, as I believe those in charge of Russia are amoral autocrats prosecuting a campaign of terrorism in Ukraine).

Dear Fester,

A successful amoral autocrat is one who can get people to believe he or she is not an amoral autocrat.

Dear David,

Thank you, and here I was believing that successful autocrats boosted their popularity by eliminating their opponents and critics. As a morbidly curious regular viewer of the SBS weekend Nazi hour, I feel that Putin has studied their methods very closely.

Once Russia has been humiliated and forced to withdraw, then Ukraine should be admitted to NATO.

Foxy wrote: "I feel so sorry for what's happening to the Russian people
under Putin."

Yes, me also but not just under Putin.

By sheer chance I happened to be in Moscow in March 1985 when Chernenko died and Gorbachev took over. I well remember the elation of those Russians I knew that finally the country was destined to exit the doldrums of the suffocating Brezhnev era and would modernise to the benefit of the people. They looked forward to knew thinking, a freer market, opening to the west and an end to the Afghan adventure. By this time Russians, at least those in Moscow, were aware of the massive difference in standards of living in the west as compared to the motherland, and believed that Gorbachev's new broom would shrink that difference.

Even at the time, I thought that they were way too optimistic and naive as to how big the task facing them was. Not just me, I read many a western expert on Russia who also saw this.

/cont

/cont

It didn't take too many years before the people were disabused of this naivety. Unfortunately, the natural Russian reaction to this was to seek out new, more authoritarian leadership. Remember that the Rus people have basically been ruled by authoritarian leaders for 1000 years and it is natural for them to acquiesce to authority. Following the failures of Gorbachev, who sought to implement a free market in goods and ideas without ceding any power, it was inevitable that Russia would seek out a new authoritarian leadership. Just as they had in 1917 when they had a window of opportunity to develop a democracy but instead chose to replace one Tsar (Nicholas) with another (Lenin) they ultimately sought to revert to the relative comfort (for them) of a strong leader in Putin.

I don't for a moment fall for the claims that Putin has 80-odd% support, but I do think he has a level of support that most western leaders would envy. Its in the nature and tradition of Russia to love their leaders (there was mass hysteria when Stalin died). My feeling from my Russia contacts is that they (or at least a majority) recognise that standards of living are low as compared to the west and are falling further behind but that they are prepared to accept that if it means they can retain the relative surety of strong leadership.

Putin and his entourage may not survive this war. But we ought not be too sanguine about what follows.

Fester wrote: "As for AC failing some Socratic test, I am of the belief that Socrates seemed far more interested in understanding why people believed what they did and saw arguments more as discussions between friends and colleagues."

I wasn't setting him up for a Socratic test, just poking fun at the level of argument that descended to "Blah-blah-blah-blah bleh-bleh-bleh-bleh-bleh".

As to Socrates, I'm not so sure he was interested in "understanding why people believed what they did" and more interested in getting them to understand the contradictions in their views. By asking questions about their thoughts and coming at issues from different directions, the aim was to show those contradictions and then led to a better more consistent position. It was more of a cross-examination than a discussion. I'm sure Socrates would have seen it as friendly banter, but few people enjoy having their fondest views exposed and take offence at being exposed. Which ultimately leads to a cup of hemlock.

Winston Churchill defined Russia as - "A riddle, wrapped
in a mystery, inside an enigma." He said these words in
1939 and they spoke eloquently to the Western sense of
Moscow as the "other". They spoke of an inscrutable and
menacing land that plays by its own rules, usually to the
detriment of those who choose more open regulation.

We've seen from recent events at both NATO and the UN the
re-affirmation of that sense of "otherness". From Putin's
viewpoint NATO has been a meddlesome force extending
influence within what used to be the Soviet fief. That
rankles with Moscow. Imperial memory is a powerful
force.

By projecting itself as a pole of opposition to Western plans
Moscow is offering itself as an alternate - as much the
"other" as in 1939.

Perhaps there is a key to the riddle of Russia. That key is
Russia's national interest. And Putin knows how to play
that game very well. However Europe also has some leverage.

Europe is a force not only for revenue but also for vital
technology and investment to broaden and develop Russia's
economy. However experts warn that divisions over dealings
with Moscow leave the West
vulnerable to the Kremlin's manipulations.

Tony Hayward of BP years ago - when asked what advice would he give
to companies dealing with the Kremlin?
"My advice," he said, "Would be tread with caution."

That applies even more today.

The outcome of this war will not only determine how
people will live in Ukraine, but also how they will live
in the UK, Germany, France, Poland, Estonia, Latvia or
Lithuania in the years to come. It's a way for the future
of Europe and for the world order that has been so obviousy
violated by the Kremlin.

Few thought it possible - but Ukraine has persevered.
And Ukraine's focus is not only on winning the war, but also
on winning the peace. Ukraine has shown the world how
bravely it can fight now it needs to be given the chance
to show the world how it can change - reform, and modernize.

For that reason a strong Ukraine needs to be given the
opportunity to be a member of the EU and NATO.

Hi Foxy,

"For that reason a strong Ukraine needs to be given the
opportunity to be a member of the EU and NATO."

Ukraine's immediate membership of NATO would trigger WWIII, of which the consequences of are too terrifying to contemplate. Please agree.

History shows, military agreements/pacts/alliances don't bring us peace, they edge us closer to war with each new signing.

The simple NATO rule is that no country can join the alliance if it is at war or has any current boarder dispute. Thus Ukraine cannot join until such time as its issues with Russia are fully resolved. And who knows how long that'll take.

OTOH, it may be academic. Poland, fast becoming one of Europe's economic powerhouses, is also planning on becoming its most formidable military power. And as it takes on this roll, it is gathering other states threatened by Russia into a loose informal alliance within NATO. While Poland cannot enter a formal alliance with Ukraine while-ever Ukraine is ineligible for NATO membership, Poland may, in the not distant future be able to wrap a brotherly arm around Ukraine to defend it against Russian imperialism.

Putin's decision to absorb Ukraine has been a disaster for Russia. Apart from showing how poor the Russian forces are, it has caused states like Finland and Sweden to join the NATO alliance and is now fostering a new informal conglomeration of anti-Russian states centred around a newly powerful Poland.

Paul writes: "History shows, military agreements/pacts/alliances don't bring us peace, they edge us closer to war with each new signing."

That's just not true. History might have plenty of examples of alliances at war, but it doesn't show that the creation of the alliances cause war. The opposite in fact. The only way small powerless states can hope to remain free is through alliances. What history does show is that lack of alliances means powerful states ride roughshod over the powerless.

Dear Paul,

Sorry but I don't agree with you in this case.

It's only through NATO membership that Ukraine can
experience true security in the face of repeated
Kremlin aggression. Their fight has been a stand
against authoritarianism and they have earned a
secure and lasting peace within NATO and the EU.
With its brutal war, Moscow has forfeited any
moral say in whether Ukraine should join NATO
or not.

And, the addition of Europe's most battle-hardened army
with more personal under arms than most member states
should stiffen NATO'S military punch.

http://wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/not-allowing-ukraine-nato-and-eu-risky

Dear mhaze,

Thank You for the information and for reminding us that:
"What history does show is that lack of alliances means
powerful states ride roughshot over the powerless."

"Now I don't propose to go through the whole of the survey to explain it to AC, because that'd be futile."

You may fool the other useful idiots but you don't fool me.

Page 17... you ignore everything else, and go to that.
- That's where you want to draw your line hey?

You ignore the part where the US itself calls the document "Public Opinion Survey Residents of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea'

Under Yanukovych it's an 'Autonomous Republic'
- Under US puppet rule is a part of Ukraine worth going to WWIII over?
Sounds like conquest and imperialism, not democracy.

What do you think the idea there was, testing the water to see which way the wind blows if they start protests in Crimea?
- Separate Crimea from the Yanukovych government?

All seems strange that the US refers to it as an autonomous republic in 2013, but then carries on like a child for the next 10 years about the people choosing to become autonomous and then choosing to become a part of Russia.

Democracy my ass...

But let's go to page 17.
http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/pnaec705.pdf
I don't even know why I'm bothering doing this since you're really weak as piss when it comes to a discussion on merit.
- Bitching for comment after comment like a 6yo saying 'are we there yet' about something you claimed I said 12 months ago, but when some documents are slapping you in the face, it's 'move along nothing to see here'
- Pathetic.

Page 17
Prior to the Maidan (Under the claimed 'Pro-Russian' leader Victor Yanukovych -
53% of Crimeans - wanted to become Autonomous region in Ukraine
2% of Crimeans - wanted to be a normal region in Ukraine.

- Ah but you skipped that inconvenient truth just as you did all the others, didn't you?
You should've become a politician, you have great weasel qualities that only other scumbag weasel pollies could admire mhaze.

[Cont.]
Mate if you can't be honest about a document presented to you, and everyone else here can see it themselves, then would would anyone listen to a word you say, unless it reinforces their own biases / preferences.

Basically, well you're a bunch of idiots.

And fyi, USAID and National Endowment for Democracy, are US fifth columns used for overthrows, may as well BE a front for the CIA, but you wouldn't know that, because you're both a weasel and an idiot.

The majority of your arguments are just crap anyway.
NATO had to create a new 'baddy' to justify it's existence, otherwise it risked becoming completely irrelevant after the fall of the Berlin wall.
So don't carry on with all of this feelgood bs.

"They looked forward to knew thinking, a freer market, opening to the west and an end to the Afghan adventure. By this time Russians, at least those in Moscow, were aware of the massive difference in standards of living in the west as compared to the motherland, and believed that Gorbachev's new broom would shrink that difference."

They tried to embrace the West, the west only wanted to keep a foot on their throat.

Russia Warns Ukraine & West; Says War Goals Non-negotiable | 'NATO's Mask Of Unanimity...'
http://youtu.be/TN7AdXLYdYk

The collective west's leaders are like canine butt sniffers.
Russia is not backing down, and Ukraine and the West are having their asses handed to them.

There's no military victory coming to them, no economic victory, no ousting of Putin, and the Russian people largely hate and do not trust the West at all now.

Foxy,
"Thank You for the information and for reminding us that:
'What history does show is that lack of alliances means
powerful states ride roughshot over the powerless'."

- You're so consumed with your cold war hangover mentality, that you couldn't possibly see anything related to this topic for what it actually is.

So were you talking about Russia or the US there?
- It's the US that rides 'roughshot over the powerless'
Russia is just defending it's security interests that western warmongers decided didn't matter.

People like yourself have indirectly gotten a million Ukrainians killed and maimed.
- But this is the US aim, to create that much carnage, that these people will never be friends again.
- Because that's how the US rolls, and you defend them Lil Miss (I'm better than you) 'San Francisco'.

Yawn... what a load of crap.
Par for the course in 2023.

Do your best send in your woke armies.
Poloand, NATO whoever, won't change a thing except more bodybags.

Hi Paul,

QUOTE FOXY "For that reason a strong Ukraine needs to be given the
opportunity to be a member of the EU and NATO."

QUOTE YOU "Ukraine's immediate membership of NATO would trigger WWIII, of which the consequences of are too terrifying to contemplate. Please agree."

These morons are so (blinkers-on) pro-west / hateful of Russia they'd see WWIII as a good thing.
I doubt any of these blood thirsty commenters (hiding behind their hateful biases) would ever agree with you.

In any case, Ukraine is probably not going to become a part of NATO now anyway, and it's just as likely that NATO itself will crumble.

The Ukraine 'project' by the West has been to the Wests own demise, militarily and economically, and western citizens are becoming increasingly distrustful of their own leaders, who care more about their weasel international mates in Washington, London and Brussels than they do their own citizens.
- All they've done is bring harm to and polarise their own nations.

The Kremlin's full scale invasion of Ukraine is widely
recognized as Europe's largest armed conflict since WWII.
However, it did not appear out of thin air. The international
community's failure to punish Putin for the earlier invasions
of Georgia, Crimea, and Eastern Europe, fueled a sense of
impunity that set the stage for the horrors of the current war.

Unless Putin is decisively defeated in 2023 this crisis will
escalate further and reach new levels. It should now be obvious
to all but the willfully blind that any talk of compromise with
Putin only serves to encourage further Kremlin aggression.

Instead the West must speak to Putin in the only language that
he understands - the language of strength.

The big lesson thus far is that failure to counter international
aggression inevitably leads to further aggression.

Timidity about what the Kremlin might do with their
nuclear weapons will allow Putin and his military
high command to forget that in a full-scale
confrontation with NATO Putin would lose.

If Putin intended to pursue a scorched earth policy in
Ukraine - the West would not stand by indecisively.
The leaders of NATO and the West would not lose. They
know only too well the cost nationally and internationally
of what it would mean if Putin prevailed in Ukraine.

Defeating Putin for NATO and the EU means taking action
meaningfully and with a long-term commitment against his
aggression. There is no other choice - unless Putin sees
sense.

Oh dear, AC, this is becoming quite the embarrassment for you. Do you know about the old saying that when in a hole you should stop digging?

But I think I've gotten to the nub of the problem here and why you so misunderstand your survey.

You wrote: "Prior to the Maidan (Under the claimed 'Pro-Russian' leader Victor Yanukovych -
53% of Crimeans - wanted to become Autonomous region in Ukraine
2% of Crimeans - wanted to be a normal region in Ukraine."

But that is wrong. They didn't want "to become Autonomous region in Ukraine" because (sit down for this) they ALREADY WERE an autonomous region of Ukraine. Crimea had been a autonomous republic within the state of Ukraine since the mid 1990's. I don't know how you missed this since it's right there in the survey when they say that 53% of Crimeans want to be "Autonomy in Ukraine (as today)"...repeat (AS TODAY). If I need to spell it out further for you, this means more than half of the Crimean people wanted things to remain the same. To make it even easier for you to understand, 2% wanted to cease to be autonomous and just be a normal oblast within Ukraine and a further 12% wanted the autonomous republic to remain in Ukraine but become more Tatar in its constitution. So all up 67% wanted to remain within Ukraine. A mere 23% wanted to re-join mother Russia (down from 33% two years earlier).

So I don't know what you think you found here. But clearly if you thought they wanted to BECOME an autonomous republic you've utterly got it wrong because they already were an autonomous republic and wanted to stay that way.

Like I said....please stop digging.

You wrote: "You ignore the part where the US itself calls the document "Public Opinion Survey Residents of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea'"

I didn't ignore it. What else were they going to call it? It was a survey of the citizens of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. Again I think you've shown you don't know what's what.

/tbc

/cont

You wrote: " Basically, well you're a bunch of idiots."

Yes, AC. I get it. Even though you don't know what you're talking about, anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot....in your mind.

While looking at this survey, I thought I look at other surveys by this group. Here's one that you might find interesting....
http://www.iri.org/resources/new-iri-ukraine-poll-opposition-to-russian-military-intervention-strong-throughout-the-country-enthusiasm-for-election-is-high/

Among other interesting things it finds that "In addition, 68 percent of Russian-speaking citizens oppose military intervention by Moscow." It was done in 2014. That makes a bit of a mess of your claims that Russia needed to protect the Russian speaking peoples in east Ukraine.

Finally, and most hilariously you write: "about something you claimed I said 12 months ago"

I was just last month!! Doesn't time fly when you're having fun?

"If Putin intended to pursue a scorched earth policy in
Ukraine - the West would not stand by indecisively."

Lol

That's exactly what they did to Zelensky at the NATO conference in Vilnius Foxy.
Signalled that they plan to act indecisively.
- No NATO promises for Ukraine, only G7 pledges.
They hung Zelensky and the Ukrainians out to dry, after giving him 'assurances'
- 'however long it takes'
When he had already entered negotiations with Russia last March / April.
No ones coming to help, no NATO, no US boots on the ground.
(If the Poles and Lithuanians come, they will also be left to rot on the battlefield)
Biden's got a re-election to win if he wants to stay out of jail.
- And well the Ukraine debacle has lost it's importance now.

Moreover, neither NATO nor the US itself are in a military position to fight Russia nor are their citizens prepared to accept the deaths of their citizens that would be associated with such a venture.

Russian youth are more patriotic!
http://www.youtube.com/shorts/n2JD9Cu-zZY

Blind Girl meets Putin
http://www.youtube.com/shorts/mUGGiEzOiyc

Revealed! New Variant of Russian Lancet Kamikaze Drone can strike undetected and will fly in swarms
http://youtu.be/gb4fOsjwpSA

Russia is starting to take more territory in this Ukrainian counter-offensive than the Ukrainians have.

There's no military 'solution, the West has run out of ammunition to fight a war of attrition.
No economic 'solution', Russia is doing better than EU countries despite the sanctions.

Russian trade turnover breaks pre-Covid high
http://www.rt.com/business/580013-russia-trade-turnover-growth/

There's no regime change or overthrow coming, Putin prevented any possibility of foreign-sponsored civil unrest and the Russian people are more unified against the West than ever.

For all of you commenters talk, none of it matters, because Ukraine is on the verge of collapse, the EU countries are in recession and are becoming deindustrialised, and Biden's looking at an election loss and potential prosecution.

The whole US establishment / deep state is in serious trouble.

'anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot'

If you knew what you were talking about, you wouldn't be disagreeing.
Simple.

What's the point of your poll exactly?

I don't know what goes on in your head mate... I read:

"As in IRI’s March poll, more than half of respondents (55 percent) consider military intervention by Moscow to be an invasion and occupation of independent Ukraine."

Only 55% ?
- So the other 45% polled were fine with it.
(Must've been a lot of Russian speaking people in Ukraine unhappy with the coup.)

That's like saying 55% of Australians are opposed to the Chinese military intervention and occupation of Tasmania.
- The other 55% of Australians were fine with it?

Or doesn't your brain work properly, you didn't think of that?
Why are you wasting my time trying to points score?

Ultimately, it changes nothing.

Ukraine can't win, they just don't have the military resources to do it
Everything you lot are hoping happens is never going to happen anyway
It's a military fact, it'll never be anything more than wishful thinking.

National Endowment for Democracy (NED), NDI, IRI, CIPE and Solidarity Center Welcome Increased Funding from Congress

http://www.iri.org/news/national-endowment-for-democracy-ned-ndi-iri-cipe-and-solidarity-center-welcome-increased-funding-from-congress/
National Endowment for Democracy (NED), NDI, IRI, CIPE and Solidarity Center Welcome Increased Funding from Congress

"WASHINGTON, D.C. – The National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and its four core grantees, the National Democratic Institute (NDI), the International Republican Institute (IRI), the Solidarity Center, and the Center for International Private Enterprise (CIPE) are deeply gratified that the U.S. Congress has shown strong bipartisan support for our work with a substantial increase in NED’s annual appropriation."

Core grantee of the NED?
They are US Fifth column organisations.

Based in Washington.
International Republican Institute
1225 I (Eye) Street NW, Suite 800
Washington, DC 20005
202-408-945

Hi Foxy,

I can not agree with anything that has the potential to plunge the world into a nuclear war. I believe all military alliances have that potential. As I said from the beginning this war in Ukraine does nothing more than take the lives of innocent peoples on both sides. I'm surprised that so many cannot see the folly of war and the destruction and suffering it causes to millions.

Dear mhaze,

A cup of hemlock, but taken willingly. Maybe he was fed up with seeing argument not being used for understanding and self reflection? Did he think that the situation would change? Not in this discussion at least. I agree with your some of your arguments arguments and find them very logical, but I needed no persuading. Yet for AC your arguments have been unconvincing.

One idea that you present that I cannot understand is that of populations being selectively bred for authoritarian rule. It was used in past times to explain why Japanese and German populations couldn't have democracy either, and how true that theory has turned out. I think that Putin's propaganda pushes out the same theory, so I'd guess that it's one point that you and AC would agree on.

Hi AC,

From ex General Popov's comments I get the impression that the Ukrainians have been successful at knocking out most of the counter-battery radar units. Without range and accuracy the main Russian advantage is obviated. Do you think that this is why the Russian army is targeting civilians, although the the Russian army has ever had a problem committing acts of terrorism has it?

I get the impression that the Ukrainian plan of attack is currently to knock out a few jamming units and then conduct search and destroy operations with their drones and artillery. Cluster munitions are also proving to be very successful at wiping out Russian reinforcements.

Russia might have a huge army AC, but the remaining half of it will also become scrap metal in Ukraine unless they learn how to use it effectively.

Dear Paul,

Putin's actions, his invasion and aggression in Ukraine has
caused this conflict and the potential of a
nuclear one. Putin needs to be stopped from it escalating
any further. There is no other choice for democratic,
freedom loving countries. Nobody except Putin is for this
conflict to continue. He is determined to win - no matter
what the cost. And for the free world the cost is too high
to give in to him.

Dear Paul1405,

It is the folly of war. Ukrainian soldiers suffer. Ukrainian civilians suffer, Russian soldiers suffer. We talk about the Free World. Some of the countries lined up with us are as repressive as Putin's Russia. There is no Free World. Muslims are second class citizens in Modi's India. Arabs are second class citizens in Netanyahu's Israel. In Saudi Arabia women are second class citizens. In the United States many would limit the freedom of atheists and homosexuals. There are countries with different degrees of freedom lined up against each other. That is the reality.

Here's a link from the BBC:

What is Russia's Wagner group, and where are its fighters?

http://bbc.com/news/world-60847877

Sorry for the typo. Here's the link again:

http://bbc.com/news/world-60947877

Yes there are countries with different degrees of
freedom for their own people - but which ones invade
others, kill and murder and destroy local populations
in attempts to build empires?

Fester wrote: "One idea that you present that I cannot understand is that of populations being selectively bred for authoritarian rule."

Its not a question of selective breeding. It's more an issue of an overriding national consensus that develops over generations. So accepted that it is no longer questioned or even largely recognised. It's a bit like our (Anglo-Saxon) consensus on individual freedom - so inured in the culture that it's shocking when it's questioned. I hesitate to use the word indoctrination since it's not a deliberative process - it's just that the next generation receives the consensus with their mother's milk.

The Rus people have been subservient to authoritarian rulers for at least a millennium. But it's not just rulers, but any authority figure to whom they instinctively defer. For a moment in history they gave democracy a try seeing it as the path to western style prosperity. But as soon as things got hard they raced back to the comfort of authoritarian rule in the shape of Putin who in everything but name is a modern Tsar.

To be sure, when a society is utterly ripped apart and the old consensus shown to be invalid and indeed destructive, that consensus can be broken. Authoritarian Germany was levelled - effective blasted back to the stone age. Whatismore, the people were led kicking and screaming to see how genocidal unquestioningly deferring to authority can become. Then, and only then, can a new consensus be developed.

Similarly Japan where things like the divinity and invincibility of the royal institution were unravelled. Equally the honour of the warrior class and the primacy of the Japanese male was exposed as illusionary. When, following the 1945 defeat, Japanese women, of necessity, began to become the bread-winners in the family, the old consensus was shattered. The pre-war Japanese consensus ceased to be and was replaced by a new consensus. A Yoko Ono could never have existed or even been imagined in old Japan.

So yes, these things can be altered. But only after the society has been pared back to first principles and then rebuilt.

Dear mhaze,

Thank You.

AC,

So no mention of Crimea wanting to become 'autonomous'. Good idea. When shown to be so comprehensively wrong, it's best to drop the subject although a better man might have owned up to the error - even one as monumental as this.... to summarise AC thought he'd found proof of something that proved the USA instigated the Euromaidan revolt but completely misunderstood the survey he'd found which when properly understood, proved the exact opposite of his claim.

It is rather sad. AC was so cock-a-hoop when he found this survey ("I'll make fool of your arguments with actual documents. Try to worm your way out of this one [mhaze]... ) but has instead shot himself in both feet.

Oh well I did advise him to stop digging himself further into the hole he'd created and at least he's taken that advice.

But then, without missing a beat, he starts digging a new hole....

He wrote: "As in IRI’s March poll, more than half of respondents (55 percent) consider military intervention by Moscow to be an invasion and occupation of independent Ukraine."

Only 55% ?
- So the other 45% polled were fine with it.
(Must've been a lot of Russian speaking people in Ukraine unhappy with the coup.)"

Well unfortunately, as is his want, AC didn't bother to find out what the poll actual said. He found a snippet that he liked and ran with it. The poll found that 55% thought it was an invasion. But that doesn't mean the rest were OK with it. A further 17% thought it was a threat to the Ukrainian leadership and 4% thought it was about protecting Russian military assets in Sevastopol. Only 18% thought it was about protecting Russian speaking Ukrainians. I'll repeat that ....18%.

The errors mount - Lavrov, Crimea, polling. And that's just the errors that are provably wrong.

Hilariously AC writes: "If you knew what you were talking about, you wouldn't be disagreeing [with me]".

The fact is AC, if I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.

"The errors mount - Lavrov, Crimea, polling. And that's just the errors that are provably wrong."

I'm not wrong, and you ain't proved squat.
I told you clean your ears out -
I knew of the issue of the Russian language being restricted back in 2014, long before Lavrov said it.

Go back to this question:
Can you answer this one simple question for us all
This is just a really easy YES or NO question, it's not difficult

Please tell us YES or NO, after the Maidan in 2013/2014
Did the new government in Kiev pass laws to restrict the Russian language IN ANY WAY?
Say it nice and loud in capitals so everyone can hear the truth.
- You can't say no, because you know you'd be wrong.

The polling shows lots of thing, firstly that the US considered Crime an autonomous region under Yanukovych in 2013, and also that even under Yanukovych the citizens of Crimea did not wish to be a part of Ukraine.

You think you have something...
But you've got nothing

And none of this matters.
In 5 to 6 weeks at the end of August, Ukraine is going to run out of the 155mm shells sent for the counteroffensive, and there isn't much in the way of stockpiles of manufacturing capacity for which to replace them, cluster munitions were a way to stretch out what little they have left.

Ukraine can't win the war.
They can't take territory when on the offensive, and they can't hold territory when on the defensive, and that's before we talk about the fact Russia is superior in number of troops and equipment, artillery, air force and air cover, air defense systems, manufacturing capacity, quality and quantity of drones, jamming capabilities, missile systems etc.

How is Ukraine going to win?
- Throw rocks at them?

Hi AC,

How is Russia going to replace all the electronic warfare equipment it is losing? Popov was concerned about the loss of counterbattery radar units, and losses of other specialised equipment like anti-aircraft missile systems seem unsustainable as well. And what's become of the 100k troops and 900 tanks in the north? Those mine fields, atgms and artillery aren't an obstacle for the Russians too are they?

I would guess that Russia is finding it increasingly difficult to protect its army over such a large front line. I hope that the Ukrainians remain patient and keep picking them off.

"I would guess that Russia is finding it increasingly difficult to protect its army over such a large front line. I hope that the Ukrainians remain patient and keep picking them off."

Ukraine will run out of everything and it's military will collapse long before Russias does, this is based on experts opinions who studymilitary capabilities including surge / manufacturing capacity, and Western stockpiles

- This is the inevitable conclusion based on those facts.

Some Russians however believe that Russia should stop playing around a go much harder to crush the Ukrainians once and for all, others such as Putin wish to limit the number of losses and not risk a direct confrontation with NATO.

It's not that Russia can't also fight a poorly trained and equipped NATO with limited stockpiles of equipment and munitions, though it would be a significant escalation, it's more about the direct confrontation of 2 nuclear armed military powers and what that would likely lead to.

If nukes are launched... no-one wins.

"I would guess that Russia is finding it increasingly difficult to protect its army over such a large front line."

I don't see any loss of territory on the Russian front line that would indicate this, all I see is 47 days of consistently failed Ukrainian offensives that failed to hold any territorial gains and that ultimately resulted in heavy losses of their own poorly trained conscripts in their largely diminished battalions.

http://www.kyivpost.com/post/19707

Front-line Ukrainian soldiers told Kyiv Post their units are suffering from poor morale because of constant and accumulating losses, sometimes poor support and limited summer offensive ground gains against a tough and deeply dug-in Russian opponent.

Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU) enlisted soldiers in individual interviews said slow, deliberate assault tactics currently used by Ukrainian military that have left individual fighters strongly suspecting they will be hit, and possibly killed, well before a break-through on the front could take place.

“The situation is very hard. The Russians were given too much time to get prepared for the widely announced Ukrainian counteroffensive. It was clear to them that one of the directions of the Ukrainian strike, if not the main one, would be Zaporizhzhia,” a combat medic said. He requested Kyiv Post not make his name public.

He added: "And they prepared very well… Every square inch is mined. They plant mines on approaches to their positions and blow them when they retreat.

“Nobody expected the whole terrain to be mined, so we’ve been banging our heads against the minefields, moving at a snail's pace,” he added. "We really lose very many sappers. They always go ahead of the troops.”

The soldier said front-line AFU units suffer slow drip losses of dead and wounded not just to minefields, but to booby traps, shell strikes, tanks firing from the far side of a distant hill, drone-controlled artillery and guided and unguided aerial bombs.

He said in his unit soldiers are still willing to attack, but the ration of very little gained for fellow fighters killed or wounded was demoralizing.

“In one month, we have only advanced one kilometer and a half… We move forward by inches, but I don’t think it’s worth all the human resources and materiel that we have spent,” the medic said.

Hi AC,

The questions I have are:

-Is Russia taking sustainable losses?

-How can Russia match the industrial and technical capacity of the nations supporting Ukraine?

-Why would Ukraine want to take heavy losses in frontal assaults when they can keep picking off the Russian forces with their technical advantages?

-How strong will the Russian defences be in six months time?

-Will Putin be able to conduct another mobilisation to bolster his rapidly depleting forces?

I think that Putin is digging a big hole for himself and I doubt that the Russian army will stay in it with him for much longer.

Fester,

AC's facts and opinions are primarily sourced from Russian propaganda blogs.

The reality is that the Russians are still taking heavy losses in men but especially in equipment. Russians are losing tanks, guns AFVs at roughly 4x the rate that the Ukrainians are, and the Ukrainians are receiving new equipment faster than it is being lost. The new missiles and cluster munitions are killing Russians at a rate nearly equal to that of the attack on Bakhmut. And Russia can't even protect a bridge 200km from the front line or their ammo dumps that have been exploding spectacularly.

The morale on the Ukrainian side is far more robust than for the Russians most of whom were press-ganged into joining.

The Ukrainians are advancing slowly but surely and the Russians are bravely running away. The Ukrainians are moving faster than the Russians did during their failed offensive. Quoting Wagner, their losses (not incl the Russian army) lost 20 000 killed and 40 000 severely wounded during their assault on Bakhmut.

Meanwhile, the Russian economy is running a budget deficit of about US$10 bn a month.

In short, the war for the Russians is not sustainable and they will lose.

-Is Russia taking sustainable losses?

Have they had further mobilisations?
Have they even pronounced war?

-How can Russia match the industrial and technical capacity of the nations supporting Ukraine?

The Wests MIC is based around profits and smaller conflicts.
They spent years preparing for this war, but were never actually prepared for it, they planned Russian collapse due to economic sanctions, their assumptions have been proven false time and again.

They can't match Russian military industrial capacity, due to lacking surge capacity, that is the ability to greatly expand production when necessary.
Also western weapons are hugely overpriced, so when they say 1 billion in weapons, it's probably the same as a few hundred million worth in Russia or China.

-Why would Ukraine want to take heavy losses in frontal assaults when they can keep picking off the Russian forces with their technical advantages?

What technical advantages?
What else can they do when they are sent on the offensive?

The Wests military is aged and rundown, built around air power and having air superiority. They don't have this. The West lacks the ability or experience to fight prolonged ground wars, lack newer missile defence and jamming technology for example the west has no equivalent for Pansir-S or TOS-1A, Russia has even greatly expanded and improved its drone capabilities

Russia Unveils ‘Product 53’, A Next-Gen Kamikaze UAV "and its production
http://youtu.be/BrOcqDdNpbU

Even S-300 is better than Patriot, the F-16 will be a challenge but nothing that Russian air defence can't take care of, and US tanks will burn just as easily as the Leopards.

-How strong will the Russian defences be in six months time?

Probably stronger than they are now, not that Ukraine has even reached them yet.

-Will Putin be able to conduct another mobilisation to bolster his rapidly depleting forces?

They're still adding to their troop numbers quietly.
They had to after Finland joined NATO, which required a larger border force.
- But they've had some 70,000 volunteers in the last few months, and the Russian people are now unified against the west in another 'Great War' struggle.
They will surely be able to get another 500k troops no problem if the need arises.

I think that Putin is digging a big hole for himself and I doubt that the Russian army will stay in it with him for much longer.
- They fight for Russia, just as the Ukrainians fight for Ukraine.

The West has acted hostile towards Russia and it's people, and the people know it. They know Putin wasn't lying about the West or its plans. That's why Putin's approval rating has gone up during the conflict.

ShadowMinister is just regurgitating tired talking points meant to bolster troop morale, western politicians (and weapon support) and citizens at home.

He may as well be bleating about Saddams WMD's.

It about as true as 'Russia is running out of missiles', which they've been saying from the beginning, it's all lies and mistruths.
The West knows how to manipulate it's own people better than it can fight wars.

"The Ukrainians are advancing slowly but surely and the Russians are bravely running away."

Where on the map has Ukraine advanced?
And where on the map did Russians run away?
- You're a propagandised fool who's not in touch with reality.

Ukrainians haven't advanced anywhere on the front line for over a week, all their offensives have failed (but they keep on trying and dying- that's why morale is in the toilet), the ones that succeeded Russia lead them into well prepared traps, and for what I hear Russia is now advancing and taking more territory than Ukraine as it's weapons and ammo dwindles.
Russia is recapturing much of the territory it lost earlier in the Ukrainian counter-offensive.
Also moving closer to Lyman and Kupiansk, and tightening the noose around Avdiivka

The Chief Editor of the independent newspaper "Novaya Gazeta,"
(no longer able to be published in Russia due to Putin's
censorship) explained in a recent interview how pollsters have
much more information about citizens they call for their surveys
than just their phone numbers.

Russians are well aware of that and when they get a call asking
whether they support Putin they of course are much more likely
to say "yes" fearing a "no" would have negative consequences
for them.

The rate of those who refuse to respond in the first place is
quite high (75%). With such shroud analytics no wonder the
official results show that Putin's approval rate is high.

The Kremlin's industrial-sized propaganda machine is aimed at
keeping the Russian people misinformed and politically passive.
This machine along with a total lack of political freedom
and the recent purge of ALL major independent media outlets has
contributed to the formation of a layer of society known as
" vatniki" ( from the Russian word for a type of warm coat).

These people live shrouded in apathy generated by Putin's
propaganda as if wrapped in a comfortable warm coat.

AC,

What a pile of bollocks.

The Western countries have about 50x the manufacturing capability of Russia and are supplying Ukraine with way more equipment than Russia can hope to produce.

If you want to see how Ukraine has advanced look here:

http://deepstatemap.live/en#8/47.981/36.705

If you want to see photos of all the Russian equipment destroyed look here:

http\://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

Russia has lost more than 50% of its fighting capability.

Ukraine is using cluster munitions to wipe out any Russians on the move. All Russia's ammo dumps are blowing up.

Russia is losing this war.

Dear Shadow Minister,

I think it's time that we all leave this discussion.
We should not be giving a pro Putin supporter a
platform to continue to spout Putin's propaganda.
He can always start his own discussions on this
Forum - and see how many takers he gets. Arguing
with people like that only encourages them to
continue to divert.

AC wrote: "I'm not wrong, and you ain't proved squat."

1. Lavrov - had said that Ukraine was trying to ban the Russian language. You asserted that that was obviously true because Lavrov wouldn't lie. I proved he lied. You even admitted it (repeat.....YOU EVEN ADMITTED IT) although you are now (rather ineptly) trying to find a way to back-track on that. You now want to change the point by talking about what happened a decade ago. But my point was this - the Lavrov issue shows how you fall for anything the Russians say simply because you can't bring yourself to accept that they lie. Someone interested in the truth would have used this error to re-examine all the other Russian claims that you just accept at face value. But instead you just keep on believing any and all unverified assertions.

2. Crimea. For reasons that aren't clear you thought that an opinion poll of Crimean residents proved that the USA orchestrated the Euromaidan revolt. But as I showed you, had completely misunderstood the opinion poll because you had misunderstood the nature of Crimea's status within Ukraine. So, in your ignorance, you thought the poll showed Crimeans wanting out of Ukraine when in fact it showed Crimeans wanting to remain in Ukraine.

3. As you flailed around trying to hide your Crimea error, you stumbled on a one sentence summary of a poll about Ukrainian attitudes to the Russian invasion. And you made big assertions about that. But you failed to look more closely at the poll, which, again, showed the opposite of what you hoped it said.

AC, you make all sorts of claims about the war, most of which can neither be proven nor disproven. But every time you make a claim that is capable of being checked, it turns out you were hopelessly wrong. Which, of course, calls into question all those other assertions.

Not called into question by you, of course, but by anyone else more interested in the truth than the propaganda.

Foxyy,
"We should not be giving a pro Putin supporter a
platform to continue to spout Putin's propaganda.'

Well looks like 'cancel culture' liberals like wolves in sheeps clothing have finally reared their ugly heads on OLO.

You want to know who gave the Pro-Putin supporter a platform?
You did ya dingbat when you started this thread, and what's more if I started my own there's no way you could not help yourself to throw your 2 cents in (and you know it), as is your right, as is every Australians right.

Your attitude is what ruined this country Foxy.
Same type of people that said anti-vaxxers had no right to speak, and got thousands of people killed though vaccine side effects like blood clots.
- People just dropping dead for seemingly no reason at all.

No one has the right to cancel anyone else from having a voice.
This type of ideology is authoritarian, and I'm not entirely sure it's supported or welcome on this platform.

You don't have to like what I say, but you don't have a right to prevent me from saying anything, only the forum owner or moderator can do that.

If you have a problem with the things I say, go ahead and report me.

What you are trying to impose is 'social justice'.
That is, impose a punishment against a person when no criminal laws are broken and no crime has occurred.
It's not actual justice, it's just rule by the mob, fascist and authoritarian.
It's a point of view diametrically opposed to democracy.

AC has a right to express what opinion he has. Whether anybody else agrees with it is irrelevant. Personal attacks are not on, but almost anything else is ok. Once unpopular views are banned, olo is no longer a discussion forum.

Well said David. What's more, AC puts a great deal of effort into thinking about things, expressing his ideas and answering questions, which I find commendable.

We all see the world a little differently and that is the fun of olo for me. The events in Ukraine will not alter a jot for all our comments here.

What these cluster bombs the Ukies are using on civillian areas?
http://twitter.com/squatsons/status/1682789691333185536
I heard 5 kids have been critically wounded so far.
If that's what excites you, each to their own I suppose

Maybe this strike from a Geran kamikaze UAV at the ammunition depot in Chudnov, Zhytomyr region two days ago is what gets yoou toey.
http://twitter.com/squatsons/status/1682476966149251074

"And Russia can't even protect a bridge 200km from the front line or their ammo dumps that have been exploding spectacularly."
Hmmm, you mean the husband and wife that went to Crimea on a day trip to get out of all the attacks in their hometown Belgorod?
The one that left their young daughter orphaned and critically injured with severe head injuries?
- Hardly anything to boast about.
http://twitter.com/snekotron/status/1680967604792442880/photo/1

Maybe when Ukraine blew up the Mariupol Drama theatre full of women kids and elderly and blamed it on Russia you considered that a bigger win?

"In short, the war for the Russians is not sustainable and they will lose."
- Must be really hard lying to yourself in the face of evidence to the contrary. I know you all support Ukraine and are struggling to cope with Ukraines inability to push back the Russians, who hold 100,000 square kilometers of previously Ukrainian territory, and even the Kiev Post lays out the poor military morale situation and military shortages they face.

Heres some quick videos so you can catchup
Russians with a captured Bradley, does morale seem low to you?
http://twitter.com/cmd_exee/status/1679484918538317825
"Patriot fires 35 missiles into fake targets"
http://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1678731224955625474
"We want them to come faster to feck them up"
http://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1682374121949216769

Listen CAREFULLY
http://twitter.com/squatsons/status/1678837530446426112

Where's your secondhand end of life F-16's?
http://twitter.com/Blackrussiantv/status/1679473814822961160

Here's the Ukrainians in action
http://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1679802361546514432

Don't forget your successful counter-offensive LOL
http://twitter.com/OlgaBazova/status/1680285021934960641

Oh and btw, unconfirmed reports
UKRAINIAN LINES COLLAPSED AT KARMAZYNIVKA (Svatove Front)
- Russia on verge of a breakthru to Oskil River
http://youtu.be/vTTxcfKAmqA

Raytheon Calls in Retirees to Help Restart Stinger Missile Production
http://www.defenseone.com/business/2023/06/raytheon-calls-retirees-help-restart-stinger-missile-production/388067/

Foxy,

The only thing the Russians do well is lie, and AC is a fast study.

I am enjoying watching the Ukrainians turn Russian weapons into scrap and Russian soldiers into compost.

At the end of this conflict, Russia will probably be a third-world country.

Russia is losing this war.

"I (SM) am enjoying watching the Ukrainians turn..... Russian soldiers into compost."

Says it all, a warmongering Trumpster who gets his kicks out of other peoples misery. You must have had much enjoyment in your lifetime watching others suffer and die in such a way.

p/s What is your history of military involvement? None I suspect.

shadowminister wrote:

"I am enjoying watching the Ukrainians turn Russian weapons into scrap and Russian soldiers into compost."

Aren't Russian soldiers human? Don't Russian parents grieve? Which army you are in generally depends on which side of the border you live on.

Do you also hope you will see somebody burn to death in a car accident?

I've made a policy of not making predictions about the outcome of the war of the Russian Steppes, neither as to the ultimate outcome nor as to the current nuisances of individual battles or 'pushes'.

The notion that anyone can read various twitter feeds or Telegram posts and get a handle on what's really going on is, in my view, bonkers. But people pick their favoured side and then burrow through the WWW looking for unverifiable claims that support their 'side'. As with most wars, the 'experts' have been pretty much wrong throughout, from the initial thinking that the Russians would just roll over the Ukrainian army to thinking the current Ukrainian push would achieve various break-throughs.

Studying history and the history of war shows that the fog of war is impenetrable, even for experts.....indeed, especially for experts.

So the war drags on and anyone who tells you they know how it will finish, is just blowing smoke.

But we can draw some conclusions. As I've said elsewhere, the Russian have already lost as regards their main war aim - keeping NATO at arms length. NATO is now stronger than ever with the addition of Sweden and especially Finland and is now very much not at arms length. Even if Putin does cause the total collapse of the Ukrainian forces and takes whatever he desires of their territory, post-war Russia will be a diminished entity as compared the pre-war Russia.

For what it's worth, my own guess is that the Russians who are, as usual, quite prepared to spend the blood of their youth in profligate sums, will finally wear down the Ukrainian will to resist as well as the west's will to assist. Nations who are prepared to sacrifice their youth is unlimited quantities, as Russia always has, generally win wars but fail to prosper. That's Russia's fate.

Perversely the likely big winner out of all this may turn out to be Poland who are likely to have the biggest, best equipped army in Europe by war's end and, should Ukraine collapse, will take western Ukraine into their embrace.

Putin and the Kremlin do not care about the life of a
soldier. What's more important is winning no matter
what the cost. And only the Russian soldiers themselves
can prevent this futile carnage from continuing.

David and Paul,

Stalin was human as was Hitler and the SS guards at the concentration camps. The Russians are causing untold war crimes and causing massive misery all in the interest of illegally subjugating another nation.

Any Russian that is in Ukraine illegally and trying to kill Ukrainians cannot claim innocence. And while conscientious objection might carry a jail sentence, going to Ukraine makes you a killer and deserving of what may come your way. The Russian war crimes against Ukrainian civilians will not end until Russia's army is so badly mauled that it cannot fight any longer and the people drag Putin to a firing squad.

In as far as there is evil in this world the Russian army and Putin are the embodiment of it and the sanctimonious drivel oozing from Paul or David is risible.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Stalin and Hitler escaped retribution, dying - without ever
having been brought to justice. While half of the criminals,
the Nazis, have been pursued all over the world for their crimes,
the other half, the communist criminals, were allowed to go free.

They were, in effect, given tacit permission to continue the
operation of their concentration camps, to expand their
draconian systems to include psychiatric wards, thereby raising
torture, suppression, and murder to a science.

The fact that the process persisted was so vividly disclosed by
Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, and many others.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Putin to be brought to
justice. Still, one can only live and hope.

Dear Shadow Minister,

The following link by Michael Rubin - may be of interest:

http://aei.org/op-eds/putin-should-be-sentenced-to-death-for-his-war-crimes-in-ukraine/

Also Dr Michael Rubin's Bio and Experience is as follows:

http://aei.org/profile/michael-rubin/

He has a PhD and an MA in history from Yale and his
experience is impressive.

Thanks to those who respected the importance of 'the right of others to voice their opinions, regardless of whether one is in agreement'.
It's actually quite sad that this principle has become a grey area in our society recently.

I support the Russian side, mostly because I oppose the Western neoconservative side (and their ideology) who actively sought to bring this conflict about.
- But I don't enjoy any of the needless deaths and casualties, as well as the anguish of family members and it upsets and angers me that all of this could've been avoided.

If I thought there was a way where all parties to this conflict, mainly Ukraine and Russia could sit down and work things out amicably where both sides issues were accepted and resolved without further conflict I would support that.
- But I'm not so naive as to think things are or can be that simple.

mhaze,
"I've made a policy of not making predictions about the outcome of the war of the Russian Steppes, neither as to the ultimate outcome nor as to the current nuisances of individual battles or 'pushes'."

- My claim that Russia has already won the war and it's only a matter of time before the Ukrainian military collapses isn't so much based upon the outcomes of small battles, but largely in regards to what I see as Russia's advantage in their ability to maintain troop numbers, equipment and ammunition, as well as the fact they have air superiority, and some specific military equipment the west does not have, such as TOS 1A Heavy Flamethrower, Pansir S short range air defense, missile jamming capabilities, and long range and hypersonic missiles.

I don't think Ukraine can maintain its troop numbers, equipment and ammunition to fight a long war indefinitely.

[Cont.]

A military victory for Ukraine is neither realistic or possible.
The best Ukraine can hope for is a stalemate, which is only possible with NATO intervention and which the Ukrainians support without reservations, but this scenario comes with the risk of 2 nuclear armed powers now being in direct conflict, and what that could potentially lead to when one side starts losing badly.

NATO countries have given up much of their military equipment and ammunition for this conflict already, so they would not really be in much of a position to continue the conflict much longer either.

"He has a PhD and an MA in history from Yale and his
experience is impressive."
I wonder what an academic with PhD and an MA in history from a Russian university would say?
- Probably the opposite?

Russian scholars are unable to criticize the invasion
without risking employment terminations, fines, and
jail sentences.

St. Petersburg State University (just one of many) has
expelled students who were detained at anti-war protests.
While more than 700 government appointed Russian university
presidents have issued a statement of support for what Putin
calls the "special military operation" in Ukraine.

Almost 8,000 Russian soldiers (probably more) have voiced
their opposition to the war in an open letter condemning the
hostilities. The exact numbers are hidden from public view.

Hundreds of thousands of members of Russia's intelligensia and
political opposition have fled the country in the wake of the
war. They're afraid of political persecution and of course
conscription.

There is no free speech in Russia. A climate of fear reigns over
the people who oppose the war.

New laws punish up to 15 years in prison (or worse). Some
universities abroad have now opened up teaching and research
positions for Russian scholars in search of refuge.

Those in the West who support Putin - should actually go
to Russia and experience things for themselves. It would
be the best cure for them.

How do we solve a problem like Putin?

Five leading writers on Russia have their say:

http://theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/solve-problem-like-putin-writers-russia-ukraine-oliver-bullough-peter-pomerantsev

"There is no free speech in Russia. A climate of fear reigns over
the people who oppose the war."

You mean no free speech in a manner that would publicly stoke civil unrest in a manner of which the US would support to overthrow the leadership?

People there don't look fearful to me.
What makes you think that every Russian is secretly opposed to the war and the leadership and every other thing in Russia?
What makes you think they are not opposed to the actions of the West instead?

One of the guys on youtube I watch almost every single day is in Moscow right now walking the streets doing his 'walk and talks', talking about the same topics he would discuss any other day.
It seemed no different than any other place to me, except this neighbourhood was possibly cleaner, nicer and better (nice little cafes and places for the little ones) than my own local neighbourhood.
See for yourself and tell me if you think its not better than your own.

I am the AI. Medvedev, Green Day Biden. Elensky wants NATO in Black Sea. Nuland to South Africa.
http://youtu.be/3h69Bdrp_xI

Go to Russia and see for yourself.

Things are good in Russia?
Well lets take a look at how their elections are run:

In the election of Vladimir Putin Russian citizens were
asked to choose between Putin or the firing squad.
80% of the population supported Putin. The rest - 20%
are missing.

Foxy,

Hitler and Stalin might have escaped court, but by accounts neither died peacefully.

As for tacit approval of Stalin's executions and camps, that's a stretch.

As for their more recent comrade Putin, this tyrant will only back down when the military losses become so unsustainable that he cannot continue.

Paul,

This is a record for you not only have you made several lies in one post but have now graduated to outright defamation.

You need to retract and apologise.

Foxy wrote: "Putin and the Kremlin do not care about the life of a soldier. What's more important is winning no matter what the cost."

Never a truer word was spoken.

This is not unusual in Russia. Historically, the one advantage Russia had against its opponents was a virtually unlimited supply of people who the authorities used as cannon-fodder. During the siege of Stalingrad, Khrushchev, who was a military leader in the region, sent essentially unarmed troops against the Germans on the basis that the Germans would be forced to waste bullets on them.

This is why Russia has the advantage in this war - ultimately they are the only ones who don't care how many people they lose. Just keep throwing warm bodies at the enemy until the enemy can no longer stomach the battle. Russia has always sought to turn its wars into battles of attrition because they know they are prepared to sacrifice more blood than their opponents.

The Ukrainian spring offensive was vital in altering the situation on the ground and turn the war into a battle of movement rather than a war of attrition. That appears to have now failed although it is true of war that the breakthrough always looks unattainable right up to the moment it is attained. So who knows. We could wake up tomorrow and find the Ukrainians have indeed achieved a breakthrough somewhere - and they only need one.

Still, it looks like this will become a war of grind and Ukraine and the west aren't prepared to grind it out. Putin will have won his territory. But what will he have won? A united and expanded NATO. An invigorated Poland-Lithuanian confederacy. A Donbass that has been returned to the stone age, full of anti-Russian partisans and economic problems that Russia is incapable of solving.

Calgacus is reported to have said of Rome..."they make a desolation and they call it peace". Putin will have created unsolvable problems for his successors but will call it victory.

Although Putin should have more cannon-fodder than he needs, perhaps he is running out of warm bodies to fling at the Ukrainians. The Duma (rubber stamping Russian parliament) yesterday passed new laws that increased the age that citizens can be mobilised. It now seems that 70 year olds can be called upon to become compost in the Donbass.

"Putin and the Kremlin do not care about the life of a soldier. What's more important is winning no matter what the cost."

"Historically, the one advantage Russia had against its opponents was a virtually unlimited supply of people who the authorities used as cannon-fodder."

I think the pair of you misread the situation entirely and are writing your own script to try and cope with the poor military situation that's confronting Ukraine.

If Putin wanted to throw mens lives away he would've launched a big arrow offensive and committed everything he had to it.

Instead what he's done is shaped the war to Russia's strengths, and used his enemy's weaknesses against them.

He's sent regular waves of missile strikes, many of which are decoys, forcing Ukraine to exhaust it's air defence missiles, and in the process located the radar and launchers and taken them out.

He's slowly but surely taken out Ukraines air force, exhausted their stinger and ATGM's, he's waited for the west to gather up all it's tanks and armoured vehecles and buillt a strong impenetrable defensive line,
- and waited for the Ukrainians to throw themselves at it at the behest of the West,
He's taken his time and forced the Ukrainians to run out of artillery shells, using their strength in outnumbered artillery and shells to decimate Ukrainian troop numbers.

He has slowly, patiently and strategically allowed the Ukrainians to grind themselves down, kept a large contingency force in reserve, so that when it comes time to deliver that knock out punch, Ukraine will fall to the floor at the push of a feather.

If he had've ran in there gung hu, Russia have taken many more losses, but it may have put a long term winning strategy in doubt.

The were stages during this this conflict where they strategically withdrew, and accepted the loss of territory, criticism of a defeat, but were following a long term strategy that would reduce troop casualties, reduce the risk of being overrun when Ukraine was somewhat stronger, and instead lead the Russians to a military victory.

'Cannon fodder'

The whole of Ukraine has been the United States and the collective Wests cannon fodder you fool.

Russia is not losing the war, and Ukraine certainly isn't winning it.

You can clutch on to pathetic little hopes, like Foxy's the 'Russian people need to rise up', and 'Russian soldiers need to lay down their arms and run away', or mhazes 'maybe there will be some breakthrough',
or some new wonder weapon, or NATO intervention.

You all do realise that none of this is realistic?

'How can Russia outproduce the collective West'
- Probably the only sensible question I've heard out of any of you lot.
- Yet you have Biden, Blinken and Kirby all telling you the cupboards bare.

No matter the hopeful argument, none of it changes the military situation on the ground.

"The Ukrainian spring offensive was vital in altering the situation on the ground and turn the war into a battle of movement rather than a war of attrition."

No, it was vital for the Russians in letting the Ukrainians destroy themselves and any future ability to mount any kind of potentially successful offensive.

People I listen to don't liken this recent counter-offensive to the Battle of Stalingrad, they liken it to the Battle of Kursk, where the German back was broken, and from that point were always on the defensive and never had anymore significant battlefield victories;
- The point where they sensed that they would likely lose the war.

If you lot weren't gleefully slurping down the utter bs they've been feeding you for the past year and a half you'd known in advance many of the things I've been trying to tell you all, information I got from other experts know know far more than I, but none of you wanted to hear that. You wanted to listen to the voices that told you what you wanted to hear, and it wasn't the truth.

It's my Birthday today so instead of arguing with a
clown - I'll stick to humour which under the
circumstances is more appropriate. Here goes:

Russian President Vladimir Putin called US President
Barack Obama with an emergency request.

"Mr President, we need your help. Our largest condom
factory has exploded. My people now have no method of
birth control. This is a disaster. Can you help us?"

"Vladimir," said Obama. "The American people would be
happy to do anything within their power to help you."

Putin asked, "Could you possibly send one million condoms
to tide us over?"

Obama replied, "No problem, I'm on it."

"Oh, and one more thing. Can you make sure that the condoms
are red in colour and at least ten inches long and four inches
in diameter?"

"No problem," replied Obama. And with that Obama hung up and
called the CEO of Durex with these instructions.

"Consider it done," said the CEO OF Durex.

" Great! Now listen - the condoms have to be red in colour,
ten inches long and four inches wide." said Obama.

"Easily done. Anything else?" asked the CEO.

"Yes," said Obama. "One more thing."

"Print - MADE IN THE USA, SIZE MEDIUM
on each one," said Obama.

mhaze,
"It is rather sad. AC was so cock-a-hoop when he found this survey ("I'll make fool of your arguments with actual documents. Try to worm your way out of this one [mhaze]... ) but has instead shot himself in both feet."

And as for this, mhaze I didn't find the survey.
It was discussed in a video I watched from a ex US military YouTube content creator, that knows for more about the modus operandi of the US foreign policy, military stockpiles and procurement process than you do, obviously.

Ukraine's Recent Attack on the Crimean Bridge & Why it Doesn't Matter Strategically
http://youtu.be/PGoNNbnQmjg?t=1160

Go back 3 months earlier and look what the same content creator was saying.

Ukraine's Coming Offensive: Leaked NATO Plans + Lack of Arms
http://youtu.be/iBU74rUubi4

There were voices out there trying to inform you, but you were listening to the wrong ones.

Dear Foxy,

You deserve condomnation for that.

"People I listen to "

Were they, AC, the same people who told you Lavrov wouldn't lie and that Crimea just wanted to be an autonomous zone?

It makes little sense to be continually led down the garden path by your sources while asserting that they are impeccable.

You all say I'm a victim of Russian propaganda...

Here's who I was listening to you morons...

US Tank commander in Iraq, Colonel Doug Macgregor
US Marine and UN Weapons Inspector - Scott Ritter
US Army Lt Col Daniel Davis,
Ex CIA Larry Johnson, Ray McGovern and Phil Giraldi
Us Army Intelligence Officer Tony Schaffer
US Army Brian Berletic (author of previous videos)
Trump friend and confidant, Judge Andrew Napolitano

Alexander Mercouris and Alex Christoforou (father was a US diplomat)

All these people are from the West, most with intimate knowledge of the US military,
- But you lot wanted to come up with every bit of bs you could to write off the things I've been trying to tell you.

'Russian propaganda'
- It's just as dumb as falling for Hillary Clintons bs mhaze.

- Probably no better than Shadow Minister's 'Russia is loing this war' cracked record spiel,.

All of you falling for the Western lies and propaganda,
- No better than if you all believed the 'Saddam has WMD's' load of crap all over again.

Have you all not learned anything?

Russia's most senior generals have dropped out of
public view after a mercenary mutiny.

Where is armed forces Chief-of Staff- General Valery
Gerasimov?

He hasn't appeared in public, or on State TV since the
mercenary mutiny of Yevgeny Prigozhin and Gerasimov is the
Commander of Russia's war in Ukraine.

Absent also from view is - General Sergei Surovikin,
nicknamed "General Armageddon,"by the Russian press. He's
the Deputy Commander of Russia's war in Ukraine.

Perhaps they've fallen off tall buildings?

I asked AC: "Were they [ the people you listen to] , AC, the same people who told you Lavrov wouldn't lie and that Crimea just wanted to be an autonomous zone?"

And while trying to not say 'yes', AC says 'yes'.

All the rubbish he writes about Crimea came from Brian Berletic whose video completely misleads about the status of Crimea in Ukraine. Which is why AC got it so wrong. My policy has always been that if a favoured source gets something wrong, I question what else they got wrong and if they mislead then I don't use them any more. AC on the other hand just ignores the errors and the false leads and carries on as though they remain impeccable sources. And that's the road to the garden path.

AC writes: "All these people are from the West, "

Just because you get Russian propaganda with a western accent doesn't improve it. It's still Russian propaganda. (NB: I'm not talking about those people who post on the nitty-gritty of the battles since, as I've said, anyone thinking they can see through the fog of war already reveals their naivety).

I couldn't quite work out why Berletic seemed so familiar but then I tracked it down. He used to write under the name Tony Cartalucci but his antics became so outrageous and provably wrong that he decided to ditch the nom-de-plume. (BTW whatever happened to Arjay?)

AC if you want to follow such people, knock yourself out. But thinking that you have found the key to the truth via trolls like Berletic/Cartalucci is just inane.

Well I didn't listen to him back when he used the name Cartalucci, but his understanding of things is way better than than anything I've heard from you, and in this case he got things right, didn't he?

He said the counter offensive would fail, just as many others in that list did.
- And he knows all about how the US funds opposition groups and conducts overthrows, something you seem utterly clueless about.
So I'll take him over you any day.

You're they one who worships the Lindsay Graham and Mitch McConnell warmongering neocons.

"You're they one who worships the Lindsay Graham and Mitch McConnell warmongering neocons."

And you say that based on what, exactly? Your usual fantasies?

I've never expressed support for the war and most definitely have never expressed support for the US getting involved in the war. You just suffer from a fairly standard misapprehension that if someone doesn't fully agree with you they must fully disagree. Very childish but all too common.

As to Berletic/Cartalucci, he led you down the garden path on both Lavrov and Crimea. But if you want to ignore that and carry on believing his every word, then so be it. Still, if you're gunna do that it'd probably be worth your while checking out Cartalucci and his failings

Hi AC,

You portray the US as a malevolent force. So what of nations it helped defeat? Germany and Japan for example? Were they enslaved? What are they like compared to Russia? You describe them as vassal states of the US, yet they are prosperous and developed nations with their own heritage and cultures.

You portray Russia as a benevolent protector, yet its federated nations are vassal states with puppet governments, poor development and widespread poverty. Moves toward independence are met with brutal suppression. Ukraine is just another example of what happens to vassal states that try to leave the fold.

Is it any wonder that Poland, once split between Hitler and Stalin when they were partners in crime, has been such a strong supporter of Ukraine against Russia's unprovoked invasion?

I doubt that Russia would still be Ukraine were it not for the military aid coming from China.

Dear David,

You wrote that I deserve condemnation for the Putin/Obama
joke.

When you're dealing with clowns - humour and mockery seems
appropriate.

Perhaps the joke should have been about weapons - with the
Russians throwing balalaikas instead of artillery at the
Ukrainians.

Dear Foxy,

I wrote:

"You deserve condomnation for that."

Please go back and read my post.

Dear David,

Sincere apologies - my mistake.

Very clever.

"When you're dealing with clowns - humour and mockery seems
appropriate."

"Perhaps the joke should have been about weapons - with the
Russians throwing balalaikas instead of artillery at the
Ukrainians."

If you can't comprehend that NATO joining Ukraine = Nuclear WWIII
- Then you're stupid and nothing I say can help you

If you think that Ukrainian war aims of taking back Crimea = Nuclear WWIII
- Then you're stupid and nothing I say can help you

If you think that firing missiles and drones into Moscow or targeting Russian civilians in Donbass for 8 years won't escalate the conflict, or that killing civilians on the Crimean bridge won't escalate the conflict and galvanize the Russian government and peoples resolve against a hostile west
- Then you're stupid and nothing I say can help you

And if you think nuclear WWIII is a fun happy circus and something to joke about.
Then your cold war hangover and hatred for Russia has gone too far to the point you're a danger to the rest of us, need to have your head read and probably also be medicated.

Nuclear bombs are not a joke, and maybe soon we will all find out.
You like immigrants don't you Foxy, you identify as one.
Well get ready for a couple hundred million.

I asked a mate today...
What do you think the Biden government would prefer -
Nuclear war or Trump back in office next year?

Ugly question, I don't wish to answer it.
Sad but true.

Ukraine is THE MOST corrupt, lying, thieving, murderous regime on the planet, except for it's master the United States of America.

Russian Rambo takes out entire Ukrainian convoy.
http://twitter.com/squatsons/status/1685352470015569920

Keep supporting the escalation of conflict if you must.

Russia will find more cities to use as firebags and let Ukraine keep sending more of its own people to horrific certain deaths.

Soon there will be no Ukrainians left.

But please, I'd really prefer we don't have to have nuclear WWIII and 200 million boat people arriving in our country.
- If at all possible.

You do realise that in this scenario if you can't defend yourself,
- Someone else might decide to eat you.

Dmitry Medvedev, yesterday on Telegram
"Our Armed Forces, repelling the counteroffensive of the collective enemy, protect the citizens of Russia and our land. This is obvious to all decent people.

But beyond that, they prevent world conflict.
After all, if we imagine that the offensive of the Ukrobanderites with the support of NATO was successful and they seized part of our land, then we would have to, by virtue of the rules of the decree of the President of Russia dated 06/02/2020, go for the use of nuclear weapons.

There is simply no other way out.

Therefore, our enemies must pray to our warriors. They do not allow the global nuclear fire to flare up.

Happy Russian Navy Day!"

It's just as well that the Russians are winning...

Putin Adds 30 Combat Ships To Russian Navy Fleet Amid Ukraine War; Reviews Nuclear Submarines
http://youtu.be/paO2uIGppEI

...Meanwhile, from October last year
The U.S. Army is struggling to find the recruits it needs to win the fight over the future
http://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/26/us-army-struggles-to-find-recruits-its-needs-to-win-fight-of-future.html

http://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ukrainian-offensive-drone-attacks-russia-grain-africa-putin-support/

>>“…the recent attacks on Russian territory have galvanised this idea of a ‘defensive war’ among many ordinary people. They have exposed a degree of latent patriotism that may not already have been on display among those who had their doubts about invading Ukraine. This shows that the war has activated social forces in Russia – though it is yet not clear where this activism will lead.

“Russian society, after its initial ambivalence, is becoming more supportive. The process of turning an unpopular campaign into a ‘People’s War’ appears to have begun.”

This is helped by Putin’s insistence since the earliest days of the conflict that the Ukraine occupation was a defensive war against an expansionist NATO. Facing a Ukraine armed with some of NATO’s most modern weapons and with thousands of troops trained in NATO countries, it is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy, a thoroughly unwelcome element of the conflict with which Western politicians must now contend.<<

I've been told that the Russian people are usually slow to get moving, but once they do, their resolve becomes hardened and they act with conviction and determination.

There's going to come a time soon when what's left of Ukraine is stomped into the ground.

"I am an ex-KGB man," Putin reportedly warned David Cameron
when then British Prime Minister pressed Putin about the
use of chemical weapons by the Soviet's ally in Syria,
Bashar al-Assad and discussed how far Putin was prepared to go.

Putin has proven he is ready to deploy fear as a weapon in his
attempt to subjugate a defiant Ukraine. His troops have targeted
civilians, and have resorted to torture and rape. BUT victory
has eluded him.

From the start the war has been marked by misjudgements and
erroneous calculations. Putin and his generals under estimated
Ukrainian resistance overrated their abilities of their own
forces and failed to forsee the scale of military and
economic support Ukraine would receive from the US and
European allies.

Victory makes a Soviet ruler invulnerable, defeat places a
Soviet ruler in danger from his closest courtiers, ministers
and generals. When Soviet leaders fall, nemesis usually
comes from those closest. Putin's obsession with his own
safety is not paranoia. He has every reason to be vigilant.

"When you walk down the corridors," mused Stalin, "You never
know when it's going to come."

Ukraine stomped into the ground?

Nah. More likely - Putin ending up in a tomb.

Yes of course he will still be there when the western leaders are all gone.
What planet are you living on?
- And yes, what's left of Ukraine will be stomped into the ground, it's inevitable.

There's a difference between truth and narrative Foxy,
All you do is clutch onto false narratives.

You do realise that if Ukraine was to even come close to achieving it's objectives, that would mean nuclear war?
If you had any sense you'd be supporting Russia, if for no other reason that nuclear WWIII is a really bad idea.

If Putin was gone, the West would face a much more hardline leader than Vladimir Vladimirovich, let me assure you.

Thankfully, Russia's winning, and there's no need for them to go nuclear.
The Ukrainian military has been largely annihilated already.
Their 2 month counteroffensive has cost 42,000 Ukrainian military their lives.
This is the price of US / Collective West supported overthrows and foolishly believing the might of the US military could deal a heavy blow to Russia.

Their achievement here:
- The picture tells the story.

http://twitter.com/squatsons/status/1687853843827363840

The West, along with 30 NATO countries and more including ours...
- Their ability to win this war militarily is zero.

They can't beat Russia in Ukraine
Sure can't defeat China in Taiwan.
- And wouldn't have a hope in hell of defending Australia if it came to it.

America is just throwing non-US lives away like garbage.

It's against my professional training not to
deal with facts and facts only.

All I do is present the facts.

I have no control over what you choose to believe.

You are responsible for your own credibility, or
lack of.

However, the drum that you keep on beating has worn
thin. And you need to change tactics.

Try using facts - just for a change.

They ARE facts Foxy.
They're just inconvenient facts to you, when you prefer the narratives.
You prefer to hear what you like to hear, rather than face the discomfort of actual truths.

CNN Poll: Majority of Americans oppose more US aid for Ukraine in war with Russia
http://edition.cnn.com/2023/08/04/politics/cnn-poll-ukraine/index.html

"When asked specifically about types of assistance the US could provide to Ukraine, there is broader support for help with intelligence gathering (63%) and military training (53%) than for providing weapons (43%), alongside very slim backing for US military forces to participate in combat operations (17%)."

The US promised support 'for as long as it takes', but I don't think anyone is coming to help.
No-one in the West wants to die for Ukraine, even the foreign mercenaries left.
(After Ukraine tried to pay some with counterfeit US dollars)

Ukraine is done, their are merely throwing men into the meat grinder, because they can't do anything else except admit they failed.
- And the US isn't capable of that anyway, so the meat grinder will continue, till there's no more meat left to feed it.
What a complete waste of human life.

In time you'll have to accept I was right about the situation, whether you like it or not.

Dear Armchair Critic,

Please don't direct any more posts to me.
I am simply not interested in your ravings.
You have no credibility whatsoever.

Baldrick,

What you are posting as facts is complete crap.

The casualty figures for the Ukrainians that you quote are made up by some Russian idiot sitting in the basement of the Russian propaganda dept and bear no resemblance to reality.

The Ukrainians instead of using Russian meat wave attacks are taking back territory from Russia slowly but in a way to inflict maximum casualties and equipment loss on the Russians. Russians are losing 3-4 tanks a day, with similar numbers for AFVs and artillery systems and killing 300-400 Russian soldiers daily. The daily strikes against Russian ammo dumps, bridges, headquarters etc have reduced Russian firing rates to lower than Ukrainian firing rates for the first time.

Russia's backing out of the grain deal and attacks on grain storage facilities have backfired spectacularly as Ukraine has declared the entire Russian black sea ways an operational area and successfully crippled 2 ships outside Russia's Novorossiisk port from which Russia exports all its Urals oil and its grain. This means that there will be zero insurance for ships docking at Russian ports and Russia's ability to export oil and grain will be severely limited.

Russia is paying a terrible price for holding onto Ukrainian territory and will lose the war.

http://www.facebook.com/EuropeanCommission/posts/-the-russian-economy-is-in-tatters-we-have-cut-off-three-quarters-of-russias-ban/458932362938565/

"European Commission
The Russian economy is in tatters.
We have cut off three quarters of Russia’s banking sector from international markets, nearly 1000 international companies have left the territory, imports and exports are down and the production of cars has fallen by 75% compared to last year.
Sanctions are essential to preventing Russia’s ability to wage war.
It is the Kremlin that has put the Russian economy on the path of oblivion.
Our sanctions are working. And they are here to stay."

Russia becomes Europe’s biggest economy
The country’s GDP in PPP terms is outperforming that of Germany, according to World Economics
http://www.rt.com/business/580817-russia-europe-biggest-economy/

Germany faces 5 tough years, economy minister warns
Berlin should borrow money to subsidize energy for companies or risk losing its industry, Robert Habeck cautions.
http://www.politico.eu/article/germany-economy-minister-robert-habeck-recession-energy-subsidies/

Some here have been sniffing glue.

"The casualty figures for the Ukrainians that you quote are made up by some Russian idiot sitting in the basement of the Russian propaganda dept and bear no resemblance to reality."

Funny how their numbers for lost tanks and equipment are accurate though, so how how does that work?
While you cling on to hope that bears little connection to reality Ukrainian cemeteries are getting bigger.

Maybe the Poles and Lithuanians will send some of their own cannon fodder next, Putin says they won't be going home.

I heard about the F16 situation.
Apparently only 8 Ukrainian pilots can be trained due to barriers with the english language.
There's another 20 they intent to first teach english to first then they will be able to train them on the F-16, training which doesn't even have a start date yet.

You know they are only getting old clapped out F-16 from the netherlands etc when they are due for retirement?

http://www.reuters.com/world/europe/netherlands-seriously-considering-sending-f-16s-ukraine-2023-05-26/
"According to figures from the Dutch defence ministry the Netherlands currently has 24 operational F-16's which will be phased out by mid-2024. Another 18 of the jets are currently available for sale, of which 12 have been provisionally sold."

Russias been accepting deliveries of new fighters, (not that they don't have 600 odd already)

A military defector who fled Russia on foot
has given a rare interview to the BBC in which
he paints a picture of an army suffering heavy losses
and experiencing low morale:

http://bbc.com/news/world-europe-65867990

Anybody interested in facts can easily Google them
and learn about Russian deserting troops who don't see
justice in this war. To many it's a real-life nightmare.

Many soldiers talk about going up against tanks with only
machine guns. They have nothing to fight with.

The morale is low and the disarray and horror of trench
warfare is unbearable.

More hypocrisy from the EU...
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=10191&page=0#349772

The battle of narratives around the food crisis
http://www.eeas.europa.eu/eeas/battle-narratives-around-food-crisis%C2%A0_en

"The war of aggression against Ukraine puts the world in danger of a famine affecting hundreds of millions of people. We must urgently enable Ukraine to export it's grains. We are also ready to work to prevent any unwanted impact of our sanctions on global food security."
- Joseph Borrell.

[Well why were they blocking all of Russias grain and fertilizer shipments and taking most of the grain for themselves?]

Borrell urged the poorest African countries to starve for independence.
http://twitter.com/Sprinter99800/status/1687715598745182208

"By accepting free Russian grain, you will give up independence. They are trying to revive slavery in free land, to bring you to your knees. You have to choose between hunger and human dignity ."

- I thought they were kicking out French neo-colonialism.

The Niger crisis shows France’s quasi-empire in Africa is finally crumbling
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/05/niger-crisis-france-empire-africa-coup-colony

Niger coup: Is France to blame for instability in West Africa?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-66406137

About as effective as a fart in a blizzard.

Start your own discussion stop trying to divert mine!

Za-mohl-chee!

Oh sorry Foxy, I didn't realise this was your private echo chamber

Ukraine can't win the war by sitting on the defensive, and it lacks the offensive capability to change the current situation.
It looks like Russia has no choice except to cross the Dnieper and march through Kiev to put all this to an end.
- And it could've all been avoided if the West had respected Russia's security interests, not tried to force a NATO encroachment on their border as well as honoured the Minsk agreements, or recogniged the Donetsk Peoples Republic and the Luhansk Peoples Republic wish for autonomy after a western sponsored coup.

That is, if not for the Wests belligerence creating the conditions for a war, none of this would've happened.
Russia has been speaking out against the Wests activities for 15 years.
The West is using the term 'stalemate' because it can't accept the word 'defeat'.
They have FAILED in everything they have tried to throw at Russia, whether attempts to cause civil unrest in Russia and remove a foreign leader, or economic war, or win militarily.
The question is are they willing to push this to nuclear WWIII in their arrogance, rather than accept their defeat?
For now at least they seem to want to keep sending Ukrainians to die needlessly when they lack the offensive capability to win the war militarily, and this is a cold hard fact.

Zelensky has gone from the person everyone in the West wanted to be seen with, to the person no-one in the West wants to be seen with.

I expect Russia will have a second mobilisation soon, and embark on an major offensive of their own that will put all this to an end, if Ukraine doesn't run out of weapons and ammunition and capitulate beforehand.

Russia will have to lay siege to Kiev, maybe next year.
Then finally this stupid war and the unnecessary killing will be over.

The West has sought to turn brother against brother so that Russians and Ukrainians hate each other for decades, and that it can capitalise from that situation, which is all it really cares about, money and power.
- This kind of childish schoolyard charades needs to stop.

These belligerent kinds of antics need to go into the dustbin of history so that a fairer, peaceful and more respectful world can emerge.

Dear Critic,

Only blind Freddy can believe that Putin will stop at Kiev.
Could this KGB officer ever accept the loss of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Romania, Moldova, Albania, the Baltic countries and half of Germany?

Then of course his friend, Xi, is only waiting in the shadows for the success of his test-probe to convince him that he can successfully take Taiwan, Japan and Australia.

We are already in WWIII and NATO can win it with conventional weapons - but if Putin initiates a nuclear phase then no problem, that will truly be the end of his U.S.S.R. (of America too maybe, but isn't this what you want all along?)

Baldrick,

You just make yourself look like a moron when you post crap like "Russia becomes Europe’s biggest economy"

Russia's economy is 1/2 that of Germany's and is smaller than the UK, France, and Italy in the EU and is only just bigger than Australia's which has less than 1/5th of the population.

The only reason that Russia's economy hasn't completely collapsed is that Russia is spending big from its reserves which at this rate will run out shortly.

As for tank numbers destroyed Oryx counts losses on both sides based on photographic evidence. These numbers are certified and a base low

http://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

"Only blind Freddy can believe that Putin will stop at Kiev."

Contrary to popular opinion Yuyutsu, Russia doesn't want to occupy territory where the citizens are against it.

"Could this KGB officer ever accept the loss of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Romania, Moldova, Albania, the Baltic countries and half of Germany?"

Putin might think that the fall of the USSR was a geopolitical tragedy, but he doesn't wish to revive it, for the above reasons.
What Putin wants is 'Security Assurances' and he's been speaking up about the worsening situation in that regard for the last 15 years.

The US wasn't satisfied with the fall of the USSR.
Like a vulture, it wanted to pick over the corpse.
It wants to chop Russia up in to smaller pieces and take all its wealth and resources for itself.

"Then of course his friend, Xi, is only waiting in the shadows for the success of his test-probe to convince him that he can successfully take Taiwan, Japan and Australia."

Taiwan already is a part of China.
The One-China policy was agreed to by Nixon.
China wants peaceful reunification and the date it had set for this to happen is 2049.
The US wants to provoke a war with anyone that can rival it, to maintain its global hegemony.

"We are already in WWIII and NATO can win it with conventional weapons - but if Putin initiates a nuclear phase then no problem, that will truly be the end of his U.S.S.R. (of America too maybe, but isn't this what you want all along?)"

This may be the opening scenes of WWIII but there's no real declarations of war by anyone yet, so saying that is a little premature. Russia and China are not going to be conquered.

If the United States (and the collective West) can't defend Ukraine, then they certainly cant win a land war in China 11000 klms across the Pacific. How will they supply their armies and refuel their naval forces?

The people and nations of the world want a multi-polar world, not a uni-polar world, and there's nothing the United States and the collective West can do to stop it, except bully, threaten and coerce everyone, which incidentally is the exact reason why they've past their use-by date and nations are fed up.

"...America too maybe, but isn't this what you want all along?"

No, I don't want to see America destroyed, but I would like to see it change its ways.

It needs to learn to accept merely having a seat at the global table rather than sitting at the head of the table.

The United States rules with threats, blackmail, regime change and military intervention.
It defends it global hegemony (imperialist empire) with liberal interventions under the cover of 'democracy', 'humanitarianism' and 'human rights'.

It cares not about people or cultures.
Look at it's own lack of healthcare and its homeless.
It wishes to impose a new global culture upon everyone.

It does not have 'partners', it respects no-one but itself.
Countries are merely tools to help achieve its foreign policy.
- Used and discarded when necessary.

Perfect example is the destruction of the Nordsteam pipline.
The US is happy to see Germany deindustrialised and German people freezing to force the German government to stay on course and to impose harm on Russia and prop up it's bottom line.

It's funds opposition groups which are often the worst kind of people you can find.
Remember Pol Pot?

It does not comprehend 'treat others the way you would like to be treated'.

It has no qualms whatsoever about fighting to the last Ukrainian, for it's foreign policy aims against Russia.

AC,

None of Ukraine wanted Russian occupation. The polls they held were completely fraudulent and carried no weight at all.

Similarly, Taiwan was part of China prior to 1949 but has split off to become a thriving democracy. Sure China wants to peacefully occupy and subjugate the Taiwanese, but the US is not going to allow the same oppression of the Taiwanese as happened to those in Hong Kong.

Any war would have to be started by the Chinese as the US has no intention of attacking China.

Dear Critic,

You seem to view everything through the prism of hating the United States of America. While I don't like them either, there are so many other considerations which I find more important.

«Russia doesn't want to occupy territory where the citizens are against it.»

Well nobody does, so either convert them, evict them or kill them - Russia (also China) has no moral inhibitions for either.

«What Putin wants is 'Security Assurances'»

So he can securely poison his political opponents even overseas (and incidentally some other innocent people who happen to be close by) with radioactive and chemical substances?

«The US wasn't satisfied with the fall of the USSR.»

I don't know nor care whether or not they were - who are they anyway?
They, or some of them, might possibly want to "pick up the corpse", who knows, but they never did so in practice (the ones to pick up that corpse were Russian oligarchs).

«Taiwan already is a part of China.
The One-China policy was agreed to by Nixon.»

Here again you seem to be consumed by your negative admiration of the United States of America: so one American said something stupid and you jump to attention?

The Taiwanese people were the few who managed to escape the holocaust of the Chinese cultural revolution and made a shelter for themselves in that island. In this regard, and no matter even if all Americans shouted and stomped their feet in unison in agreement with China, I rather follow (and recommend the American Bible-bashers to also follow) the Biblical statement: "Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee." [Deuteronomy 23:15]

[continued...]

[...continued]

«China wants peaceful reunification»

So does the wolf wish to reunite with the lamb, peacefully in their stomach. We must not allow them!

«This may be the opening scenes of WWIII but there's no real declarations of war by anyone yet»

You must mean "World-War", because almost every other country agrees that this is a war.
Well there have been no such early declarations in WWI and WWII either.

«If the United States (and the collective West) can't defend Ukraine»

For a fact they can and do - Ukraine is still there, it has not yet perished (Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy)!

And even if Kiev falls, heaven forbid, then the battles will continue over Warsaw, Berlin, Stockholm, Paris and London.

«they certainly cant win a land war in China»

Correct, and very unfortunate for the Chinese people and those they conquered already. If anyone can help, that may be India.

«The people and nations of the world want a multi-polar world»

I for one do not want any "poles", and certainly not a Chinese pole.

«Look at it's own lack of healthcare and its homeless.»

More importantly, I look at the fact that the U.S.A has the highest rate of incarceration in the world.

Yet one evil does not justify another: that so many Americans languish in jail does not justify the imprisonment in Russia and China of anyone who disagrees with the regime.

"None of Ukraine wanted Russian occupation. The polls they held were completely fraudulent and carried no weight at all."

So you are trying to tell me that the Russian speaking people in the LPR and the DPR after having their homes, kindergartens and coffee shops bombed relentlessly for 8 years by the Ukrainian Nazi Banderite government installed after the 2013/2014 western sponsored coup, did not seek an end to the years of bombing, and did not seek autonomy and welcome Russian protection when the Ukrainian regime considered them terrorists?

What have you been smoking today?

And that Crimeans did not overwhelmingly wish to join Russia after seeing those same Ukrainian Nationalist Banderites burn people to death in the Odessa Trade building?

Tell me how many videos have you watched of what the people in the Donbass themselves actually want and think themselves?

I think ZERO.
- Because if you'd seen just one, you wouldn't be saying that.

"Similarly, Taiwan was part of China prior to 1949 but has split off to become a thriving democracy."

Taiwan (Republic of China) 'split' off after a failed civil war;
- Though it's probably better to say that after a failed civil war, the losers went to regroup on Taiwan, and they still have ambitions of ruling China.

I'll give you some leeway on this one, as the 'Taiwanese' people largely see themselves as Taiwanese, separate from Chinese.

But the Taiwanese still have many relatives on the mainland, and they still rely very much on trade with China. Moreover, the Taiwanese people largely support the 'status quo'.

They don't want a war with China, they certainly don't want to be turned into the next Ukraine, and that's why the Democratic Peoples Party (DPP) fared poorly in the election last year, after Pelosi visited. They voted in favor of the Kuomintang (KMT), which broadly favors closer links to mainland China and supports the 'status quo'.

If NATO Goes Toe-To-Toe With The Russians NATO Will Lose
http://youtu.be/Dg1qF41g2eU

Dear Critic,

«If NATO Goes Toe-To-Toe With The Russians NATO Will Lose»

I am not a military expert and I refuse to watch your demoralising clips.

We are at war and if NATO is indeed destined to lose as you claim, then we will all die an honourable death, also taking the enemies with us in a radioactive cloud.

AC,

In the 1990s every single oblast in Ukraine including the Donbas and Crimea voted convincingly to leave the Soviet Union. What those in Donbas and Crimea living under the Russian boot want cannot be determined as the referendums and videos were orchestrated by the Russians and have zero credibility.

Donbas, Crimea, Kherson and Zaphorizia are recognised by the world as part of Ukraine and the sanctions and war will continue until Russia removes itself from its illegal occupation.

As for the Russians being able to beat NATO, what a laugh, Russia has the second most powerful army in Ukraine. Russia cannot even guarantee the safety of ships going to its port to export oil and grain in the black sea.

Russia is losing this war.

"Russia is losing this war."

No they're not losing SM, the question is 'Will they win?'

Western allies receive increasingly ‘sobering’ updates on Ukraine’s counteroffensive: ‘This is the most difficult time of the war’
http://edition.cnn.com/2023/08/08/politics/ukraine-counteroffensive-us-briefings/index.html

>>The primary challenge for Ukrainian forces is the continued difficulty of breaking through Russia’s multi-layered defensive lines in the eastern and southern parts of the country, which are marked by tens of thousands of mines and vast networks of trenches. Ukrainian forces have incurred staggering losses there, leading Ukrainian commanders to hold back some units to regroup and reduce casualties.

“Russians have a number of defensive lines and they [Ukrainian forces] haven’t really gone through the first line,” said a senior Western diplomat. “Even if they would keep on fighting for the next several weeks, if they haven’t been able to make more breakthroughs throughout these last seven, eight weeks, what is the likelihood that they will suddenly, with more depleted forces, make them? Because the conditions are so hard.”<<

Well I suppose CNN is Russian propaganda now?
Told you all this stuff weeks back.

You there was one lone tank that actually made it to the first line of defense.
They fell into a trench made to stop tanks a few weeks back.
- But they did make it, the crew probably surrendered or were shot by snipers.

In my opinion Russia needs to go on it's own big offensive and show some decent gains of its own real soon.

I think it's a good thing that everyone's facing Ukraine's losing prospects and gone silent.
- Because that means all the Ukrainian supporters in the west are all like...
head down, move along, nothing to see here...
War what war?

Isn't that right charter boat?

Like NSW supporters the night after QLD gets up and wins the State of Origin series, again.

"No I didn't even watch the game last night"
- 'Of course you did, you just don't want to say you did, LOSER'

The fact that the media is talking about staggering losses on the Ukrainian side, and short of a miracle little to no chance to change the current military situation, Western citizens will switch off and stop supporting sending more money and weapons.

Good.

Sooner this war is over the better.

AC,

The answer to your question is emphatically that Russia is not winning the war.

That the original Ukrainian strategy had limited success is clear. However, their new strategy is proving far more effective. Their use of long-range artillery and missiles is having a devastating effect on Russian logistics and military encampments and is picking off Russian tanks and guns at a vastly increased rate.

The destruction of the northern Crimean bridges has made supplies to Zaphorisia very difficult and the critical damage to 2 Russian ships has made 3rd party ships avoid transporting Russian grain or oil from the black sea drastically reducing Russian revenue even further.

The cluster bombs fired from the 155 howitzers are taking a terrible toll on the Russians all along the front whether in the trenches or not. Ukraine will soon be taking delivery of Abraham tanks and F16s to start shooting down Russian aircraft along with dozens more Leopard 2 tanks and even more Leopard 1 and other tanks.

The Ukrainian anti-aircraft systems are stopping most of the missiles and the Russians can only hit civilian areas.

Russia is definitely not winning the war and has no chance of a second major offensive after its first failed one.

"Abraham tanks and F16s" Lol
- They're getting 31 Abrams tanks, they'll be burned out in 2 weeks
As for the F-16s, they're not getting new up-to-date ones
They've getting ones that have been or are stated to be retired.
- And there's only 8 Ukrainian pilots ready for training and the date to begin training hasn't even been set yet.
There's another 20 Ukrainian pilots, but they need to be taught english first due to language barriers before they can be trained.

- The whole thing smells of the US wanting to back out.
The military industrial complex doesn't want to be embarrassed when they're quickly destroyed by Russian integrated air defence.

And if the cluster bombs are doing such a great job, why are Russians advancing;
Or are the Ukrainians only using the cluster bombs on civilian areas?

The Chongar Bridges?
Was Ukraine aiming at the bridge or the school it hit?
Was it aiming at the bridge and hit the school by mistake?
Or was it aiming at the school and hit the bridge by mistake?

Ukraine shells Chongar Bridge and settlement of Chongar with Storm Shadow missiles
According to the Kherson Region’s acting governor Vladimir Saldo, "the most vile thing done by the Kiev regime is that a school in the settlement was hit"
http://tass.com/emergencies/1657227

I guess it may have been an storm shadow shot down with Russian air defence?
Just like many of the so called missile attacks on Ukrainian civilian structures, but we wont go there...

AC,

I notice that the claim that a school was hit was by a Russian blogger and while they had a photo of the damaged bridge, there was no evidence of any school damage. I call BS on that.

As for the M1 tanks, it is more likely that the tanks that will burn will be Russian as plenty are burning now.

As for the F16s, even the earlier ones have better radar and avionics than Russian planes and far better weapons/missiles. Also, the US is not the only country training Ukrainian pilots.

Russia's economy is circling the drain, and the constant stream of funerals and loved ones missing in Russia is beginning to get noticed and discontent is rising.

Russia is losing this war.

"...there was no evidence of any school damage."
- Yeah I saw that too, I probably should've said 'unconfirmed'.

Looks like your favorite spokesperson isn't too happy about the recent CNN coverage.

http://twitter.com/SarahAshtonLV/status/1689624808869224448

AC,

I see that Ukraine has retaken Urozhaine, and hit the Kerch bridge again in 4 places. I also see that civilians have no access to the hospitals in occupied areas as they are choked with wounded and dying Russian soldiers.

Russia is losing this war.

"I see that Ukraine has retaken Urozhaine, and hit the Kerch bridge again in 4 places."

Is that keeping your war hopes alive?
Sounds a bit desperate.

what about the 37 or 57 settlements in Kupiansk they evacuated with 11,000 people?
- Move along nothing to see here, right?

http://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/16/world/europe/ukraine-urozhaine-village-russia-war.html
"Ukrainian forces have retaken the tiny village of Urozhaine, moving farther into the Mokri Yaly River Valley in the south of the country, after more than a week of battling Russian troops."

'tiny village'

Don't waste my time with pointless attempts at point scoring.
They'll be lucky to hold onto it for a day or 2.
Let me know when they've taken Torske and Melitopol.

(We both know that's highly unlikely / near impossible)

Kersh bridge... [rolls eyes]
Did you win the war yet?
Haven't you taken Crimea back yet, what's taking you so long?
I thought they were planning Nazi day trips to the beach months ago?
What happened?

Dead.
That's what happened.
Biden will probably keep it going all through next year too, rather than face failure.
So there will be plenty more pointless deaths in the forseeable future.
If dead Ukrainians excites you.

AC,

Torske is still under Ukrainian control and Russia is losing Robotyne and Kozachi Laheri.

What is keeping your war hopes alive? The many 1000s of dead Russians, 3 KA52s being shot down this month, Russian tanks and equipment being destroyed, and Russians retreating?

The Ruble is collapsing and Russia is running out of money and is cheating its soldiers out of pay.

Russia is losing this war.

Torske is still under Ukrainian control and Russia is losing Robotyne and Kozachi Laheri.

Tokmak sorry.
And who gives a crap about those small abandoned and largely destroyed towns and villages?
They mean absolutely nothing, except a way for Ukraine to have anything albeit insignificant to distract away from the total loss situation its actually in.

Russia is not specifically trying to take territory.
It's objective is to destroy the Ukrainian military.

But Ukraine is doing a really good job of destroying itself, throwing its men at a brick wall with no chance of achieving anything noteworthy.

Russia is happy to step back when necessary let the Ukrainians take up forwards positions and then rain hell down upon them.
They often recapture any lost positions within a few days.

And what happens if you actually reach the first fortified line of defense?
There are tank ditches, minefieds and dragons teeth you know.
There's no avoiding these obstacles.

Ukrainians will be out in the open with no air support while Russian drone surveillance provides targeting co-ordinates for artillery and kamikaze drones.
What happens if you make it through the first fortified line of defence and make it to the second?
Ukrainians are all going to die there, and the West will have achieved nothing.

What is keeping your war hopes alive?
- Hope that the US gets a blood nose, and changes its warmongering neoconservative foreign policy attitude of threats, blackmail, regime change and military intervention away from all these endless wars, war profits, corrupt politicians and needless suffering.

What JUST Leaked Out of Congress Is HORRIFYING!
http://youtu.be/ZaCnK_nFLg8

Regardless of who wins, there is suffering and death on both sides. The tragedy continues.

Baldrick,

Ukrainians have already broken through the first lines of defence and are in Robotyne. Their strategy is to massacre Russian defenders with cluster munitions then advance and ambush the Russian counterattack. The Russian force that fled Urozhaine lost 3/4 of its manpower and all its vehicles.

I believe that they have now shot down 4 KA52 helicopters this month and that Russia may have as few as 40 left and can't build any more. and there is a massive fire at the Novorossiyk

Ukraine's population is determined to drive Russia out to the pre-2014 borders and is not going to stop.

Russia's economy is running out of money and Russia is losing this war.

50 years ago yesterday, Australia's involvement in that disgusting American war of aggression in Vietnam ended. One must feel sorry for those broken old men who fought in that misguided war, and are still reliving the horror of it 50 years later.

As for Ukraine, look at the infantile commentary from those safe at home, couch potatoes, keyboard warriors, claiming to "know" what's involved, what's going on, insensitive to the suffering of others, how laughable are these lounge room generals.

Village idiot,

Here to virtue signal, I see.

Ha, General Trumpster, takes 'time out' to fire a shot at me, from behind his heavily fortified keyboard! Oh no, he's been wounded! stepped on his mouse pad!

"Ukrainians have already broken through the first lines of defence and are in Robotyne."

Ummm no.
Robotyne is in the security zone.
http://youtu.be/UTK5j_nzk1w

Take all the Robotynes you want.
It's a long way to the Sea of Azov.
Ukraine has lost 45+ thousand troops since the the offensive began.
Their forces are greatly diminished, and aren't going anywhere.
They'll likely be left to rot in the fields like so many others.

I don't know why you lot get all excited and hopeful about the next 'whatever'.
It only ever brings your side more death.

Let me help you SM
Pull your fingers out of your ears and listen to what people are trying to tell you.
http://twitter.com/upholdreality/status/1692294476453065114

The sooner your side accepts the inevitable the sooner innocent conscripts who have no business even being there might stop dying.

'Russians counter attacked around Rabotino and regained positions in the town and to the west.'
http://twitter.com/squatsons/status/1693949239125213371/photo/1

I told you so, what did I say?
"Russia is happy to step back when necessary let the Ukrainians take up forwards positions and then rain hell down upon them. They often recapture any lost positions within a few days."

Yawn.

This is interestiing
http://twitter.com/squatsons/status/1693683665715462208

Isn't the 82nd brigade the one the one held in reserve with the Challenger 2 tanks?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/08/15/ukraines-powerful-82nd-brigade-once-held-in-reserve-has-finally-joined-the-counteroffensive/

Looks like things haven't gone so well then.
- And now they're done, that's the end of their offensive.
I guess it was no wonder then that Zelensky was out and about doing F-16 photo ops, it's all about the optics, all about fighting an information war for the west as much as it is a military war.
- But that military war is not looking good, and F-16's arent going to change things.

I'm not sure what the point even was, look at this map, do you actually see what the Ukrainians had to get through (minefields not shown) just to get to Tokmak?
http://twitter.com/squatsons/status/1693404652673577445
Let alone get to Melitopol / cut off the land bridge to Crimea, or even take Crimea?

I heard info today (apparently in the Washington Post) that prior to the start of the offensive the US had ran simulations, i.e done the war games, and they knew the counter-offensive was going to fail, they knew they were sending all these Ukrainians to die, just as many other analysts had predicted.

Oh and btw, the Abrams have issues, as many others have warned.

Tucker Carlson Talks To Colonel Douglas Macgregor About The Ukraine War
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMUAaWK79Vc
- Carlson is even better on Twitter than he was on Fox news.

AC,
The Russians had a substantial fortified line North of Robotyne which Ukraine smashed. Ukraine still holds the majority of this town and there are only skirmishes with Russians in the South. Your prediction that Russia would retake Urozhaine or any other town has completely failed to happen. The Russians have fled leaving their dead scattered everywhere.

What is clear is that in the last couple of months is that Ukraine's precision weapons and cluster munitions have been destroying tanks, BMPs, artillery and infantry at a rate that matches the slaughter of Russians at Vuhledar and Bahkmut.

Russian generals are panicking as they don't have anti-battery radar while the Ukrainians have plenty and are destroying Russian artillery at a rate that Russia can't replace.

With all the Crimean bridges damaged, Logistics are a nightmare and Ukrainian special forces have attacked 2 Russian air bases and destroyed 5 Russian planes this last week.

Russia's economy is crumbling and the losses are so high that a second conscription round is going to be called.
Russia is losing this war.

"The Russians had a substantial fortified line North of Robotyne which Ukraine smashed."

That would be the front line, separate from the Surovikin line, which is 3 fortified lines of defense.

There's 3 fortified lines of defense which include tank ditches, mines and dragon teeth, ahead of that is the security zone. I'm assuming they had another defense line which was might've been the front line and ahead of that the grey zone.
- But don't quote me I'm not 100%, but I do know they've never crossed the first fortified line of defense. 1 lone Ukrainian tank made it there (some say he got lost) and he didn't see the tank trench and went in, that was earlier in the offensive, a few weeks in.

"Ukraine still holds the majority of this town and there are only skirmishes with Russians in the South."
- Like I said the other day, what of it?
Capturing it doesn't really make any difference whatsoever in the grander scheme of things, as I said a few days back.

"What is clear is that in the last couple of months is that Ukraine's precision weapons and cluster munitions have been destroying tanks, BMPs, artillery and infantry at a rate that matches the slaughter of Russians at Vuhledar and Bahkmut."
- That's the line they feed you, Ukrainian morale and support would've collapsed months ago if Ukrainians knew the real situation, but you've now ran out of reserves, Ukraine will have to take more old men and boys to plug the gaps on losses.

They don't have anything left with which to launch a counter offensive, it's all gone.

Nearly 50k Ukrainian dead just in the offensive, not a whole lot less less than Russia has lost for the entire war.

"Russian generals are panicking as they don't have anti-battery radar while the Ukrainians have plenty and are destroying Russian artillery at a rate that Russia can't replace."
[Rolls eyes and shakes head]
- It's all projection, and a part of Ukraine and the Wests information war, just the same as when they said a million times Russia was out of missiles.

- Basically they are keeping you fed on a daily dose of bs.

But your mind will never compute that, because you've been lead to believe the other side is the patholgical liar and the West is honest in it's reporting, when the opposite is true.
They know how gullible the average joe is and they're playing you for a fool.

- You'll never be able to get your head around the fact that the west lies to its citizens in matters of foreign policy and war...
You know they are, but your mind still can't get itself around it.

Hello Iraqi WMDs.
Hello Nordstream
Hello Wet Market

Why do you think I call you charter boat SM?
You just can't comprehend that your spoonfed bs

"Russia's economy is crumbling and the losses are so high that a second conscription round is going to be called."
- They're still doing alright.

They've been adding to troop numbers the whole entire time, never stopped, just kept it quiet.
But I have heard talk of 500,000 in a second mobilisation.
Russia has 250,000 reserves itching to get into the fight right now but held back in case Poland makes a move.
Putin's approval rating has improved and the Russian people have unified, I would not at all be surprised if Russia is thinking of a big push soon, and they would probably want to get a new army's worth of troops into training and in reserve, just in case of US or Polish/Lithuanian or NATO intervention.

But Russia needs to make a big push, it's coming.

This whole Robotyne thing is just an attempt at gaining something Zelensky can talk up on Ukrainian Independence Day.

The village itself has little significance.
Meanwhile not much talk about the situation / loss of territory in Kupiansk.
- That's going to hurt morale when it happens, and going by the evacuations and bridges being blown up they are indeed planning to step back to the other side of the Oskil River at least.

Russia is not losing the war, Ukraine is.
- And they are going to try to freeze the conflict to prevent a military collapse, but Russia's not likely to go for it.
They are more than likely to push Ukrainians back to the other side of the Dnieper, before they let up.

Ukraines out of reserves, out of ammo, there not much more the collective west can give.

And if Ukraines air defense is doing so well then what was zelensky doing in Greece begging for some?

Anyway, you'll see, there's only so much the narrative can hide and they can only get away with it for so long.

Influential figures in the US make a case for peace to avoid worse outcome

The Case for American-Led Peace in Ukraine
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/case-american-led-peace-ukraine-206732

"Western arms deliveries offer little relief. Most of the pledged main battle tanks are already in the theater, and there is limited prospect for further deliveries. Reaching for antiques like the German Leopard 1, first introduced in 1965, won’t be a gamechanger. The “fighter jet coalition” has pledged F-16s, but it’s unclear when and where these will be deployed. In any case, they would be outmatched against an increasingly active and confident Russian Air Force and Russia’s formidable integrated air defense. Stocks of precision weapons are shrinking, which clearly plays a role in the Biden administration’s refusal to provide ATACMS missiles, vital for American security in the Pacific."...

..."If Russian forces can drive deep into Ukrainian territory and capture the regions Moscow has identified as its objectives, then the war ends in a significant Russian victory, and crucially one reached by force of arms alone, not a peace settlement mediated by the United States.

A Russian victory on these terms is a significant setback for the United States. The reputational damage to American competence and the NATO alliance would be colossal, as the best of NATO hardware and training has already gone into the Ukrainian military, and Russia would be able to make the claim that it stood alone against the West—and won. The Sino-Russian relationship would also strengthen. Finally, the cheap and effective weapons Russia uses to win the war, such as the Lancet, will flow to every regime opposed to American leadership around the world.

Therefore, it is imperative that the idea of a peace settlement amenable to all parties in the conflict—including Russia—takes hold and is seriously pursued in Washington. Influential American figures are already engaged in Track 1.5 diplomacy with their counterparts in Russia. These efforts should be encouraged, expanded, and form the basis for sustained engagement in peace negotiations. Only then will the United States be able to focus entirely on containing China, which is of paramount importance to American security and prosperity."

Baldrick,

Again, you post obvious lies. You claim 50,000 Ukrainians were killed in the counter-offensive with absolutely zero evidence. The Ukrainian figures of Russian casualties have more backing and claim 250,000 Russians killed or wounded.

The chances of Russia advancing to capture the entire Donetsk and other regions are zero as Russia's army is far weaker now than a year ago.

The comments about the lack of counter-battery capabilities came from Russian bloggers, not Western sources.

PS. I hear Prigozhin has just been assassinated. Russia is now eating itself alive.

Also, the Russian Lunar module made a big impact on the moon due to incompetence.

Russia is losing the war.

What a cry baby, the result of the counter offensive tells it's own story charter boat.
- They achieved nothing.

But they took an abandoned village! Waaahhh!
It was only 6klm from their starting point and they still have 100klm to go but they're making progress... Waaaahh!

Where are they going to get the next army and equipment from?
It's almost amusing watching you cling on to hope.

Maybe German Nazis in Ukrainian flagged flying saucers will appear from under the Antarctic ice and come to the rescue.
I can hardly see anyone else coming.

Yes it appears Prigozhin is no more.

You really belong with the likes of Annalena Baerbock
That's your camp Lol.

Ukraine Sacrifices LAST Reserves on a TINY Village
http://youtu.be/Jrd9LEfn1aM?si=_akDujLZWqd4luy-

Russia attacks infantry with drones
http://twitter.com/squatsons/status/1694100714161943039

BBC is propaganda too charter boat?

Ukraine war: The men who don't want to fight
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065

"Ukraine is struggling to meet its demand for soldiers.

Volunteers aren't enough. The country constantly needs to replace the tens of thousands who've been killed or injured. Many more are just exhausted, after 18 months fighting off Russia's full-scale invasion."

- Who's going to fight your war?
No point spakking out about it, like a progressive throwing a tantrum.

Baldrick

Don't be such a crybaby the Russian invaders are being slaughtered with 250 000 dead or wounded. Your mate Yevgeny Prigozhin who killed 50,000 Russians to take tiny abandoned Bahkmut was shot down by Putin.

You have been claiming every month that the Ukrainian forces have wiped out yet every month they keep destroying Russian men and machinery.

Your previous predictions that Russia would break out of Kherson and take Odessa, or that Russia would retake Lyman etc. have all been rubbish.

Russia is being thrashed and is losing this war.

Hi AC,

General Trumpster should know, he's fought in every conflict since the Punic Wars in 264 BC. Me thinks his general rank is honorary, a bit like the colonel in Colonel Sanders, all based on chicken! Should ask him about his military experience, seems to think he knows a lot when it comes to war. Maybe he had a 'Combat' outfit when he was a kid, we'll never know.

The Putin fancier AKA the Village idiot is consistent in that he is ignorant in every subject, Paul's only achievement in life is learning to walk upright (almost).

However, he hasn't let his mental retardation get in the way of spouting idiotic opinions after graduating from prison. Such classics as China has zero unemployment, great health care and pensions.

Feeling lonely he joined the Greens who shared his lack of talent and disdain for the truth and campaigned for LGBTQ to include the Letter P for a subset of the Greens now languishing in jail

The Wagner Group Leader - Yevgeny Prigozhin dies
in a plane crash in Russia.

Putin certainly waited to get his revenge. Amazing how
many who dared to challenge Putin have died. I guess that
a plane crash is just as good as being thrown from a
building or poisoned.

It's been a good day. Russia fired one of its best generals, destroyed the most effective PMC had a helicopter stolen with aircraft spares, had an S400 system destroyed, had a Su30 hit with a missile and lost the town of Robotyne.

That's not including the 3 tanks 5 APVs 4 artillery pieces and 100s of Russians destroyed.

Russia is losing this war.

Dear shadowminister,

No day of war is a good day. People on both sides are getting killed. The slaughter continues.

Whoever wins or loses, the dead, wounded and mourning will be there.

Thanks David,

There are no good days in war, only death and destruction. its a warped mind that see war as good

"Don't be such a crybaby the Russian invaders are being slaughtered with 250 000 dead or wounded."

- Still getting your news from the most corrupt country in Europe backed by the CIA and MI6 I see... Okay.
Didn't we already go through your one track mind in yesterdays outing?

Anyways...
I wouldn't like to speculate on who killed Prigozhin, assuming he's dead, and I think it's fairly likely he is.
The bloke had many enemies both inside and outside Russia.
Even if you disregarded Putin, Ukraine and the US / Collective West.
He fought Islamic State in Syria and Africa.

He got in Putins bad books, not just for the 'coup' itself, but also from the things he said at that time.

Betrayal is the one crime Putin would not forgive.
Then he got on the bad side of the military generals.
Ukrainians would take him out if they had the chance, they assassinate bloggers
And the US was getting peeved about Wagner in Africa, in formerly colonial / US puppet government countries that had become anti-west.
- Knowing full well that Putin would get the blame, they may have engineered his demise, the West does have sleeper cells in Russia.
Prigozhin was seen as a hero by many people in Russia, so to have them think Putin did it, might be something the West wanted to do.
- They took out Soleimani after all.

There's just too many possibilities to speculate.

"Your mate Yevgeny Prigozhin who killed 50,000 Russians to take tiny abandoned Bahkmut was shot down by Putin."
- You mean the town they lost 100,000 men failing to defend?

"You have been claiming every month that the Ukrainian forces have wiped out yet every month they keep destroying Russian men and machinery."

It takes a while to kill and main a million Ukrainians and destroy the military might of 40 odd countries, but its happening.
Shame the West scuttled the peace agreement a month after the SMO started.
Preliminary documents had already been signed.

All this merely demonstrates how much Putin opposes NATO on his doorstep.

"Your previous predictions that Russia would break out of Kherson and take Odessa, or that Russia would retake Lyman etc. have all been rubbish."

The keyword SM is 'yet'.
Just because we don't know Russia's objectives doesn't mean it doesn't have any.

Currently there's a lot of talk in Washington (past diplomats and such) about the need to freeze the conflict, like in Korea, Biden wants to keep the war going or specifically not allow Ukraine or the West to face outright military defeat, others want the conflict frozen so Ukraine can join NATO.
Biden's concerned about re-election next year.

Russia fears a frozen conflict would allow the west to rebuild the Ukrainian military again and have another crack later no doubt.

Russia will be pushed to negotiate and accept a western lead peace agreement, (now that the counter-offensive failed) but Russia has no reason to accept it.
They have military objectives and plan on achieving them, after the lies surrounding the Minsk agreements Russia knows the West cannot be trusted to keep its word.
Also Putin would face a loss in approval rating if he did a deal with the West.

And so, Ukrainians will keep dying, and Russia will likely have a second mobilisation of 4 or 5 hundred thousand troops and start a big arrow offensive with it's fresh reserves to gain significant territory while Ukraines military is tired and depleted.

If Russia brings in new troops, it can push forward and create a bulge (which would extend the length of the front line - and force the Ukrainians to be spread thinner across that extended front line allowing Russians to overrun the Ukrainian positions, just as they did to Russia in Kharkiv last year)

This is how armies eventually collapse.

"had a helicopter stolen with aircraft spares, had an S400 system destroyed"
- I didn't hear about the chopper incident, but that S-400 was quite the explosion.

Russia's day wasn't a complete loss, 6 new countries to join BRICS announced.
(Argentina, Ethiopia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates)
I'd thought maybe Saudi Arabia, Argentina, and UAE, (if any)
- since India wasn't all too keen on the blocs expansion so soon.

It's a good deal for developing countries.
They can get loans from the BRICS development bank in local currencies
trade and settle in those local currencies (no need to hold so much US dollar reserves)
And can avoid brunt of the Wests economic sanctions when they don't wish to do what the US demands

The US previously could use sanctions on IMF debt laden nations who step out of line, tank their economy and currency, making them unable to repay the debts / face a default and have no other financial options.

It was a system of threats, blackmail, regime change, military intervention.
(That's the Wests tools)

So, de-dollarisation continues.
That's worth far more than a few tanks, Robotyne and a helicopter.
Lemme know when they reach Tokmak.
- Oh that's right their counter-offensive and Western trained troops have largely been destroyed already, so the captured abandoned village was a wasted effort.
- Let's see how long Ukraine can hold the place for, I'll give it a week tops.