Ukraine can't join while-ever there is fighting on its territory. But the second the war is over, they'll be signed up and absorbed into the NATO umbrella.

That might be a truncated Ukraine with the eastern provinces ceded to the Russians or it might be a restored Ukraine including Crimea. But whatever it is will become part of NATO. But only after fighting stops.

This is really the evidence that Putin has already lost. Sure he might end up with a bit more territory to rule and a few million more people to immiserate, but his main aim of keeping NATO at arm's length is already nought.

Finland, within walking distance of St Petersburg is now a member. Sweden any time now. Trip-wire troop placements are now situated in the Baltic nations. Putin's lost.

While on the actual fighting, Armchair asserts that "Ukraine is being annihilated."
Let's just ponder some of AC's other assertions. Only last year he told us that Odessa would fall within a month. Yet now Kherson is liberated and Odessa seemingly safe.

Oh and remember when Bakhmut fell? AC assured us that this would lead to a Russian breakout and a series of other defeats for Ukraine. Well, to be fair to AC, there was a Russian break-out after Bakhmut - the Wagner group broke-out toward Moscow.

AC believes whatever current Russian propaganda tells him and then treats it as fact because, according to him, Russians (eg Lavrov) wouldn't lie. Dear oh dear.

BTW, Zelensky knew that he wouldn't be admitted to NATO yet, despite his 'efforts'. But this was a bargaining chip, as in, 'If you won't let me join, at least give me a sh!t load more ammo". Seemingly it worked.

One can think of the Cuban missile crisis. The US and the USSR went to the brink of nuclear war because the Russian presence in Cuba was unacceptable to the US. I think the US was correct in finding the Russian presence in Cuba unacceptable. I think the Russians are also correct in objecting to NATO's presence on their borders. The Bay of Pigs fiasco was the US attempt to eliminate Castro completely.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is similar to the wrongness of the Bay of Pigs fiasco only on a much larger scale. The US had sense enough not to follow up on the Bay of Pigs with similar efforts. So far, there is no similar display of sense from Putin.

The matter might be resolved by a recognition that Russia has a legitimate interest in objecting to a hostile presence on their borders as the United States had a legitimate interest in not having a hostile presence near their borders. That recognition could include the recognition of Ukraine's existence as an independent country but not a member of NATO.

Thanks for your views thus far.

Right or wrong I admit that it concerns mw greatly as
to what Putin is going to do next regarding the war
with Ukraine. I would have thought that allowing
Ukraine to join NATO would have provided Ukraine a
safeguard against Russia's further continuation of
the war and attacks. It appears that the member states
of NATO prefer not to risk any further confrontation
with Russia. But surely this will come anyway?

It would be a shame if Ukraine lost the historic
chance to join NATO. This would be a crime against
the millions of Ukrainians who are fighting for their
independence from Russia. Therefore for Ukraine, its
accession to NATO would not only guarantee the
country's security but it would also be an effective
strategy for maintaining independence.

Surely Russia's aggression should have opened Europe's
eyes and the door has to be left open for Ukraine to
join NATO.

NATO also needs a big country like Ukraine - who has
proven that they can protect European borders from
possible future invasions. After all isn't Ukraine
part of Europe and shouldn't Europe be united?

Finally, a step towards the right decision:

http://defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3455199/leaders-agree-to-expedite-ukraines-nato-membership/#

Foxy wrote:

“It would be a shame if Ukraine lost the historic
chance to join NATO. This would be a crime against
the millions of Ukrainians who are fighting for their
independence from Russia. Therefore for Ukraine, its
accession to NATO would not only guarantee the
country's security but it would also be an effective
strategy for maintaining independence.”

NATO is a military alliance. It is not a cure for all ills. Ukraine can join the European Union which is not a military alliance. Ukraine is fighting for independence from Russia. Accession to NATO means that if NATO is at war with Russia, Ukraine is on the other side. We live in a complex world. It is made darker and more threatening by nations lining up in military alliances.

More important than the independence of Ukraine is the freedom of the individuals that make up the country of Ukraine. This freedom depends on Ukraine being a democratic country with equal rights for all not on its status vis a vis Russia.