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The Forum > General Discussion > Putin Talks of Negotiation over Ukraine,

Putin Talks of Negotiation over Ukraine,

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Hi Fester,
I mainly just watch youtube videos by a handful of different content creators.
I don't really know too much about the difference between military formations of Soviet / Russian v's Western / NATO.
I read some of your article, (I'll read a bit more later, it's a lot to take in) what I can add here is that I'm told that Russians traditionally put their Generals and Colonels nearer alongside their troops on the front line, where as the West does not do this.
Apparently, Russian troops generally expect their Generals to more or less direct events on the battlefront alongside them.
In regards to your Business Insider article, I did see footage of where at least 1 T-90 tank was lost.
Off memory I'm not sure if it lost a track and was abandoned because it was in the line of fire and holding up a line of other tanks.
Maybe it was this below, I'm not sure.

Setback To Putin Russia’s Most Advanced T-90M Tank Destroyed Days After Deployment In Ukraine
http://youtu.be/P7z5AAuNJMk

Hi Foxy,
I hope you watch the Mariupol Drama Theatre video above, to understand how your 'Get Putin!' cold-war hangover mentality is helping to continue this war.
These acts of fabricating events of alledged 'Russian atrocities' are meant precisely for people such as yourself who will then demand that 'something must be done' which then leads to continued western support for a continuation of the war.
This is the kind of thing that lead to Zelensky being given an Oscar by Sean Penn.
Great acting, great movie script.
You'd sit back and say 'Interesting times' right?
It's not interesting, it's horrible, and all of it could've been avoided.

You want to know why I don't support the actions of these US neoconservatives and their threats, blackmail, sanctions, regime changes and military interventions?
Because it's an 'End justifies the means' mentality.
- And that's the mentality of terrorists.

Meanwhile we've further evidence that Western nations never intended to honour the Minsk agreements.
Hollande confirms Merkel’s remark Minsk agreements let Kiev build up military muscle
http://tass.com/world/1558075
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 2 January 2023 10:01:42 AM
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"You're reputation on the forum is not looking credible."
Pffft. Grow up. [Rolls eyes]

I don't give a shite what other people think of me.
I'll stand up for what I think is right nonetheless.
I'm not like our gutless pink tie wearing leaders who are begging for a pat on the back from their international buddies.
- "There's a good boy"

Who made you the forums ministry of truth and thought police warden?
Or was it just self appointed?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 2 January 2023 10:10:00 AM
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Armchair Critic,

You can roll your eyes all you want. It
doesn't change the fact that you're being judged
by your ignorance of the facts. And obviously you
don't care. However I am trying to be kind - by
drawing your attention to how you're being perceived.

Perhaps the following might make you understand the
situation just a little better.

Here's a Ukrainian Lullaby for you:

My beautiful child go ahead and cry
Mama will calm you with a lullaby
But even a kiss on both your cheeks
Won't stop the bombs falling in our streets

Papa's out fighting for our liberty
Doing his best so we can stay free
To speak our own language on shore and sea
And force the invaders to let us be

Your parents want you to be proud
And grow up Ukrainian and not cowed
The invaders as brothers we won't tolerate
When their bombs, tanks, and missiles try us to negate

Their invasion of our precious land
Is something those people don't understand
That we'll fight them with our very last breath
Even if it means our nation's death

We'd rather all die in liberty
Then go down enslaved in history
Parasites like them will never win
Our Ukrainian people will never give in!
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 2 January 2023 10:41:33 AM
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We are a sovereign nation
Whom Stalin tried to starve
He tried to stamp out nationalism
Over 4 million died

Many still remember the bodies of the dead
A repeat of history is what Ukrainians dread
Putin's just like Stalin - determined to win
To allow that to happen would be the biggest sin!
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 2 January 2023 10:52:52 AM
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Dear Foxy,

There is a war going in the Ukraine. It is due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. That is a fact. There are accounts of atrocities. The accounts may or may not be facts. Such charges have been made in past wars, and the accounts were seen to be dubious later. Since most countries sympathize with Ukraine accounts of Russian atrocities are believable. They are believable but not necessarily true.

Past wars have been characterized by accounts of atrocities. The blowing up of the Maine and the blame cast on the Spanish for it rallied US support for the Spanish-American War.

https://sites.smith.edu/fys169-f19/2019/12/06/the-u-s-s-maine-disaster-yellow-journalism-at-its-finest/

The above is a reference to an account of how US newspapers treated the sinking of the Maine. It contains:

“In 1974, a team of naval historians reevaluated the explosion of the Maine in order to definitively determine if an external mine had caused the blast. These experts studied archives, official reports, and wreckage photographs, even requesting documentation of foreign ship explosions to compare with the Maine. They determined that the source of the blast had actually originated from within the vessel. In the years following, computer analysis of heat transfer indicated a high likelihood that the proximity of a coal bunker to a magazine of ammunition catalyzed a chain reaction of ignition large enough to destroy the Maine.”

In WW1 the Bryce report told of atrocities committed by the Germans in Belgium and rallied support against the Hun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Alleged_German_Outrages

It contains:

“The Bryce Report, subsidised and circulated worldwide by the British government, was an irresponsible misuse of judicial procedure that moved Britain more deeply into official involvement in the most morally questionable kinds of propaganda.”

During wars there are atrocities. Modern wars are characterized by accusations in the media of atrocities committed by the side the media condemns. Our media and government usually condemn the Russians. I believe atrocities have been committed. I doubt that all accounts of atrocities are true and doubt that the Russians are guilty of all of those that are true.

We can learn from history to doubt.
Posted by david f, Monday, 2 January 2023 11:15:06 AM
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Hi AC,

When the Russians invaded they had a huge material advantage over the Ukrainians. Equipment and ordinance were in such short supply that I doubt the Ukrainians would have used it to level Mariupol and a theatre full of civilians. Further, how likely is it that the Russian army would be influenced by accusations of atrocities? To my knowledge the Russian army has never admitted to atrocities or acts of terrorism, so why would it be different in Ukraine? The Ukrainians are still very short of ammunition and equipment and use it as effectively as possible, which might be one reason why you see military targets and not apartments or hospitals being attacked on Russian soil. Another reason might be that the Ukrainian forces have moral constraints.

Looking at the performance of the Ukrainian army, they seem to have a very effective strategy. Their accurate weaponry and ability to target supplies, supply infrastructure and troops well behind the front has made it tough for the Russians, and was probably a major reason that the September counteroffensive was so successful. Knocking out the Kerch Bridge would make it much easier to take the south, but as Russia seems to be losing the war of attrition it will get increasingly difficult for them to maintain the front as the conflict continues.
Posted by Fester, Monday, 2 January 2023 12:41:59 PM
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