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The Forum > General Discussion > Putin Talks of Negotiation over Ukraine,

Putin Talks of Negotiation over Ukraine,

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AC, David f,

I think that Russia's war crimes are well documented by third parties and are not subjective or conjecture. Russia's deliberate attacks on civilian areas are war crimes that Putin actively supports.

In 1991 all of Ukraine voted overwhelmingly to leave the USSR including Crimea, Donbas, Luhansk etc. The USSR supported this and when Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons Russia guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity. There is no legal basis whatsoever for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Neither Crimea nor the Donbas were majority Russian, and the last reliable poll indicated that they did not want to be a part of Russia. Russia's justification seems to be mostly about hurt feelings.

The Ukrainian strikes on Russian headquarters and barracks seem to have killed nearly 1000 Russian soldiers in the last 24 hours and destroyed a number of ammo dumps. Kreminna is now surrounded on 3 sides and facing massive accurate artillery fire. Most of their command structure has already run away.
Posted by shadowminister, Tuesday, 3 January 2023 10:50:01 AM
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"I think that Russia's war crimes are well documented by third parties and are not subjective or conjecture."
By who OSCE?
OSCE were proven to be actively helping the Ukrainian side, demonstrating bias, their reports are unreliable and slanted.

"Russia's deliberate attacks on civilian areas are war crimes that Putin actively supports."

I'd agree with you, but only if they ARE deliberate attacks on civilians.
1/ If you place military assets amongst civilian populations this itself is a war crime, and then becomes a legitimate military target. (Ukraine has been shown to do this, and is thus using civilians as human shields which certainly is a war crime)
2/ If you fire a missile or launch a drone at a military target, and air=defense intercepts said missile or drone and one or both objects fall in a civilian area causing deaths or casualties, this does not amount to deliberate targeting of civilians.
- When Russia has targeted hotels or residential buildings there's no way that either you or I can prove that military personal were not present.

"In 1991 all of Ukraine voted overwhelmingly to leave the USSR including Crimea, Donbas, Luhansk etc. The USSR supported this and when Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons Russia guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity."

Yes, but this was also done under an agreement that NATO not move Eastwards.
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early
The US lied and went back on it's word, and further NATO expansion resulted in a legitimate security issue for Russia, which Putin himself pointed out years prior to the current war at the NATO conference in Budapest in 2008.

"There is no legal basis whatsoever for Russia's invasion of Ukraine."
NATO itself created the precedent in Kosovo.
http://youtu.be/oG2YaoxZzEo
- The US does not respect others security concerns which it expects for itself, and I refer to the Monroe Doctrine.

"Neither Crimea nor the Donbas were majority Russian, and the last reliable poll indicated that they did not want to be a part of Russia."
- That's not true and maps prove it, you 're trying to argue these people support their own persecution.
http://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4?t=37
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 3 January 2023 11:23:53 AM
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[Cont.]
"The Ukrainian strikes on Russian headquarters and barracks seem to have killed nearly 1000 Russian soldiers in the last 24 hours and destroyed a number of ammo dumps."
You're speculating, taking one sides version over the others.

"Kreminna is now surrounded on 3 sides and facing massive accurate artillery fire."
- It's likely the Ukrainians will continue an offensive on this town in the coming days and weeks.
Based on the situation in regards to the weather, both sides have a small window with which to attack the other beginning in a few days (January 7) and which will last for 3 to 4 weeks after which the weather will once again constrain either side from any serious actions.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 3 January 2023 11:29:17 AM
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Steve Rosenberg is the BBC's Russia Editor stationed
in Moscow. He gives a very interesting insight into
the Russian TV coverage of this year's Festivities.
Especially New Year's Eve which he says was a "strange"
mixture of "We want peace," "But peace will only come
after our victory."

According to Rosenberg this was not a "normal" new
year's eve. But as he points out - "Normal" disappeared
10 months ago when Russia launched its full scale
invasion of Ukraine.

He also says that there was nothing "normal" about President
Putin's annual New-Year address to the Russian people.
We're told that the President usually stands alone
outside the Kremlin while making his speech.
Not this year. This year President Putin had
standing behind him men and women in combat uniforms.

The President used his address to promote the Kremlin's
"alternative reality." that this conflict was one in which
Russia's the hero and Ukraine and the West are the villains.

Sound familiar?

And again the old chestnut of "neo-Nazis," was brought up by
Putin when he said:

"For years, Western elites hypocritically assured us of
their peaceful intentions, but in fact, they encouraged
the neo-Nazis in every possible way."

" Defending our Motherland is the sacred duty we owe to our
ancestors and descendants."

The irony here is that as Rosenberg says - "When the Kremlin
talks about defending our Motherland keep in mind that it was
Russia that invaded Ukraine. Not the other way around."

Another peculiarity is the Russian President's claim that
his country is benefiting enormously from the dramatic events
of 2022.

"It was a year of important steps towards Russia's sovereignty."
"We laid the foundations for our common future, our true
independence."

The assertion that Russia is fighting for its sovereignty
and independence is peculiar.

Russia has long been a sovereign independent nation. It seems
that Putin's goal is to divide Russians into us and them. Into
those who support his "special military operation" and those who
don't.

cont'd
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 3 January 2023 12:06:09 PM
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cont'd

"It was a year that put many things in their place and
drew a clear line between courage and heroism on the
one hand and betrayal and cowardice on the other."

Rosenberg says that -

"On 2023 we're likely to see the Kremlin drawing this
line more clearly. The Russian authorities have mobilized
all the country's resources for the "special military
operation."

"There is no reason for debate or discussion. The
government expects the public to rally round and to
support the President. Those who don't will be made to
feel they're betraying the Motherland."

Hitler would be so proud.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 3 January 2023 12:12:22 PM
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AC,

As far as the numbers of dead are concerned in the one attack the Russians acknowledge that there were up to 700 people in the building at the time of the attack and also that there was ammunition stored in the building.

The photos of the large multistory building after the attack was that the entire building was completely destroyed leaving only a pile of rubble. That anyone survived was a miracle. The Ukrainian estimates were between 400 and 600 were killed. The figure that Russia gave of 63 is a joke. Within a span of 24 hours, Ukraine also HIMARSed multiple other Russian barracks, headquarters and ammunition dumps.

Between partisans on the ground, US satellites and the HIMARS accuracy of 1m the Russian penchant for still closely grouping their men and munition is either stupidity or incompetence.
Posted by shadowminister, Tuesday, 3 January 2023 1:37:29 PM
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