• Hamlet ..."Col Rouge, can you point out to me the differences between Irgun, the Hanagah and the Stern Gang in 1945-1948 and Hamas and Hezbollah today"? Actually earlier in 1940, an-extremely lethal Stern-Gang, a splinter faction of the revisionist Irgun-Group, combined of the terrorist power-brokers (jostling to-contest a place in the Zionist project), went as far as to make an offer -- to join the WWII on the Nazi side. Towards erection of the Zionist-Vatican upon the Haram-as-Sharif, on the national and totalitarian basis, bound by the treaty with the Nazi-Reich.

Due to the fact that supremacist Zionist hierarchy and their cultivated Nazi proxies had-a-common interest to-uproot assimilationalist Jew-lesser brethren of Europe to Palestine. Exposing thus diabolical relationship, where aloof Zionist movers-n-shakers did not merely fail-to-lead any resistance or ever defend Jew-lesser brethren survival, they in fact actively sabotaged all the efforts-made by the rival Jew-groups. While plotting instead with their fascist counterparts towards the Third-Reich sponsorship.

Not merely because it appeared powerful enough-to-impose Zionist colony in Palestine, but because radical-Nazi-practices were consonant with the racist-Zionist-aspirations. Though conveniently after the war connived victors concocted-a-myth as to devalue otherwise significant magnitude of the Zionist participation in crimes committed-against-the-humanity, by shifting focus of the inquiry entirely onto terrorist Stern-Gang, ran by Nathan Yalin-Mor and Israel Scheib (Eldad). The future Israeli Prime Ministers Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir chose to join at the time (Avraham Stern's freedom-fighters for Israel).

These facts give an-extra edge of topicality to what in any case has been already a highly controversial records study of the Zionism in a hey-day of escalated fascism. When diabolical Zionists were already in-bed with what-later-became known as Axis of Evil. Combined of the fascist Benito Mussolini's Italy and Tojo Hideki's Japan.

On March 29th, 1936, Zionists praised their Jew-Duce and his fascist regime at the opening of the Maritime School, where black-Nazi-uniformed Zionist-Youth Betar-Group (headed by Begin) trained young Jew sailors towards the Zionist savagery escapades in Palestine. Funded by the Fascist Government of Civitavecchia.

As to the diminished democracy repercussions effect down-under, please proceed to ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4625#47660

Hamlet “I would scarcely call that creative, more like lebenstraum.”

Call it what you want. We can do the “looking back in history” and blame this government or that government. We can damn to hell the signatories to the Balfour declaration, which promoted the idea of a Jewish Homeland.

When you have finished your tirade of pointless historic injustice you might be ready to focus on the here and now (I might ask, do you have any Irish heritage? It is a characteristic of the Celts to cling to supposed injustices which might have effected their ancestors – but have no impact on themselves. It is a pointless trait).

The here and now is, Israel exists. Lebanon Exists.

Hezbollah exists as a pariah and Hamas is putting itself into the same category. I take it you have something to say, then use your 2 x 350 word allocations wisely instead of just blowing smoke.

Leo Braun, I am not sure where you are coming from but can tell where you are going and the bleating self-righteousness is not the stuff which will resolve problems.

You should really accept the facts of life as they are – Israel now exists.
The population of Israel are not going to be pushed into the Mediterranean.
Hezbollah might have a lot of support for its reign of terror from Syria and Iran but it will fail and ultimately, Syria and Iran will also fall, they exist today only through intimidation and terror of their own populations. Syria is hell bent on revenge against the Lebanese for throwing them out 2 years ago. Eventually the Christian Lebanese will have endured enough and quietly terminate their Muslim antagonists and Israel will supply the hardware to help them do it.

At the end of the fight those standing will be those who really want peace. Hezbollah and its ranting fanatics have no use for peace, their power exists only in war. They have no substance, no constructive agenda, no future (beyond destruction of the Jews) and will be wasted.

And the sooner, the better.

Col Rouge wrote:

We can damn to hell the signatories to the Balfour declaration, which promoted the idea of a Jewish Homeland.

Ah, the Balfour Declaration! Have you ever actually read it, or considered its context?

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Have another read - it doesn't promise anything, in fact it doesn't offer anything more than moral support, and dubious at that - to try to get the Jews to support the British war effort at the time. And it specifically says that non-Jews should not be disadvantage - or don't you see that?

Just two years before, in 1915, in the same context, the British offered the Palestinians the same thing.

So why should Israel claim that Balfour gave them rights, and deny the Palestinians the same?

see

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1915mcmahon.html

"I am convinced that this declaration will assure you beyond all possible doubt of the sympathy of Great Britain towards the aspirations of her friends the Arabs and will result in a firm and lasting alliance, the immediate results of which will be the expulsion of the Turks from the Arab countries and the freeing of the Arab peoples from the Turkish yoke, which for so many years has pressed heavily upon them."

sounds a bit the same as Balfour, doesn't it?

Yes, Israel exists, and has the right to exist.

The Occupied Territories, aka West Bank and Gaza, aka Judea and Samaria and Yesha, depending on who you ask and what their intentions for those scraps of land are. The UN prefers Occupied Palestinian Territories.

Do Judea and Samaria have the right to statehood? Not according to those who consider them to be an integral part of Israel that are temporarily occupied, not by Israel, but by Palestinians. It is those who have planted settlements in order to carve up the territories and make them impossible to govern in a contiguous form by and who also consider that Judea and Samaria should never have the right to anything but the shadow of statehood.

Lebanon. An interesting little country, the south of which was occupied for 18 years: Israel thought that it could do in 1982 to Lebanon what it did in 1967 to Judea and Samaria. After all, didn't Solomon's and David's kingdom extend to the Litani River, that could provide Israel with even more water?

Would those of those supporters of Israel on this forum please state, for the record, whether they consider that Israel has a right to that 'Lebanese' territory, and if not, why then should Israel be able to maintain a claim over Judea and Samaria? 'The Bible' gives it all to them.

It was Israel's occupation of that Lebanese territory that unwittingly nurtured Hezbollah, in the same way that Israel, by its initial support of Hamas over the PLO has created the 'monster' that is in political control in Judea and Samaria.

So does Lebanon have the ‘right’ to exist? It appears not to have the right to exist as a modern state. It appears to not have the right to bridges, roads, industry and electricity. Israel says that it wants the Lebanese government to take control of southern Lebanon from Hezbollah, but then it attacks Lebanese military facilities. Withy a crippled military how is the Lebanese government meant to take control? Israel does not want a modern state to its north.

Yuyutsu,
I think you presume too much. you state that I "obviously dislike Israel."
How dare you assume to know my thoughts. I stated clearly that the conflict is madness.

I also noted that Israel has nuclear weapons and I fear they have the will to use them.
This does not make me anti-Israel, or by your distorted mental process, an enemy of such.

I happen to believe that killing people is wrong, and that bombing civilians and destroying their homes and country's infrastructure is an abomination.

Please take particular note that I have not taken specific sides in this as murder is murder. Israel just has the best array of weapons, compliments of America.

I also said that people who have died should be treated as real people and not just numbers. Contrary to your egotistical assumption on my thoughts, I think that all such victims regardless of which 'side' they are on should be named.

All of the people maimed and killed in such futile conflict are "real people", and that is my point. These are people with real family connedtions, aspirations, wants and needs.

The politics of the current Israel-Lebanon conflict seek to deny our common humanity.

You claim that the killing of the 4 UN peacekeepers was an accident - after 10 phone calls in 6 hours. Your assertion can only imply that the Israelis are incompetent or stupid.

Your arrogant assumption on my post truly does fit into the scenario of, as you state, when "irrational hate prevails, no amount of words and facts can make a difference."

Yuyutsu, you display an irrational assumption that everyone is out to pick on poor Israel. Grow up and start thinking for yourself.

Idiots blindly following false rhetoric are not only stupid but bloody dangerous

Initial results of the investigation about the killing of 4 UN observers:

Northern-command intelligence provided the air-force with 12 targets, claiming they were "most urgent", 7 of which were genuine Hezbullah targets, but 5 were wrong. While the planes were already on their way, the air-force control-officer identified in time 4 of the wrong targets as UN installations and canceled their bombing, but tragically missed the fifth.

It was not yet published why 5 UN targets were pointed, but I predict that the investigation will prove that it was a result of extreme pressure and fatigue, probably compounded with the information that an important northern-command intelligence base was severely hit by a Raad missile in the first day of the war.

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Wendy,

Australia need not send any troops. Our moral and diplomatic support of Israel is sufficient at this stage. Specifically, we should use our diplomatic ties with Iran and Syria to tell them clearly that enough is enough.

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Hamlet (for your records),

Israel has no right to (and no interest in) Lebanese territory.
Israel has no right to the West Bank and Gaza.
These territories were taken in a defensive war and Israel may keep any part of them to the extent necessary for protecting itself against those who wish to destroy it. However, these areas should remain strictly miltary zones where except the military, all Israeli citizens must be excluded.

Unfortunately, the leaders and most residents of these territories prefer the destruction of Israel over having a nice state of their own - otherwise, as far as Israel is concerned, they could have their state long ago. The previous regime did not want to become a state, because it would expose their corruption, and now, the Hamas does not want them to have a good comfortable life because it strives on their poverty: had they lived peacefully and comfortably they might imitate the western lifestyle and forsake Islam!

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Aka,

Yes, Israel has the will to use nuclear weapons - but only as a last resort if in dire straights.