The author's characterisation of Israel as a failed state is absurd. Within Israel proper, Arab-Israelis enjoy full democratic and legal rights. Currently, there are twelve Arab-Israelis sitting in their parliament and one in the cabinet. Lest it be suggested that these are merely Israeli pawns, Ahmed Tibbi, an Arab-Israeli politician, called for the established of a Muslim caliphate that includes Israel. Further, an Arab judge currently sits upon the Supreme Court - the very court that recently struck down a government education program on the basis that it discriminated against Arab-Israelis. It is difficult to find any other Middle-Eastern country which bestows this degree of protection on its citizens let alone on minority citizens.

Whilst it is true that many innocent Lebanese are suffering in the current conflict, the responsible party is not Israel but Hizbollah. It is they who have chosen to embed themeselves into the civilian populations and use schools, mosques and hospitals as weapons depots, all the while conducting a terrorist campaign against the citizens of northern Israel.

The popular conception of Israel as a land-grabbing, war-hungry state baffles me. In 1948, Israel accepted a tiny, discontinuous sliver of land in the partion deal - necessarily accepting Palestinian statehood. Following the 1967 war, Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt in return for recognition and peace. In 1993 and 2000, Israel offered to remove its people for the vast majority of the West Bank and Gaza in return for peace. Despite being the victim of terrorism and aggressive war, Israel has repeatedly made or offered concessions in return for peace.

Unfortunately, I am unable to find a more accurate and succint characterisation of the situation than Bill O'Reilly's: If Hizbollah and Hamas renounced violence and disarmed there would be peace and Palestinian statehood. If Israel disarmed itself, there would be second Holocaust.

The current situation grew from Israel's withdrawal, in order to comply with UNSC Resolution 425 (which the UN has certified complete). Lebanon has not complied with its obligations, which include disarming 'ALL' militias and using the Lebanese Army to secure the Israeli/Lebanese border. Notwithstanding the Lebanese Government's abysmal failure to comply with its obligations, Israel endured constant harrasment from Hizbollah, the militia Lebanon chose to allow to secure the border.

Israel endured this harrasment because, inter alia, to attack Hizbollah without the will to finish the job would increase their appeal to the Arab/Persian world. Unfortunately, to defeat Hizbollah would require the wholesale destruction of much of South Lebanon and South Beirut. Finally the harrasment reached the point it was designed, for some bizzare purpose, to reach, and Israel has been forced to react. Contrary to what appears to be the common view, Israeli government's are elected by Israeli's, not the International Community.

If the Israeli government leaves Hizbollah in the position to continue the bombardment they will be replaced at the next election, by a government with the internal fortitude to finish an unglamorous, dangerous, unpopular, but vital job

Inshallah

2bob

>>The Lebanese people have done nothing to deserve the wrath of the Israeli political and military establishment. <<

Please qualify what is meant by “Lebanese people”. Lebanon is divided into: Christian and Muslim sectors.

The muslims are seeing Hezballah as their champion liberator peace provider by excellence. These muslims are brainwashed since infancy to destroy Israel and wipe it off the map.

So they are NOT the :

>>…innocent bystanders, in the same way millions of Poles were in World War II when, sandwiched between the Soviet Union and Germany, they suffered immeasurably.<<

This is an Islamic (religious) war against Israel which is the geographical state of their number one enemies of islam: the JEWS and the Americans by proxy.

If anything the real innocent bystanders are the Lebanese Christians – not so innocent themselves I must add – but weak (stupid) enough to have allowed a war to explode on their land- that really did not concern them right now.

>>Such a perspective (of tit for tat) misses the bigger picture: that until the world is prepared to help build a strong Lebanon, recognise the legitimate grievances of the Palestinian people and deal with Israel's moral vacuity, then what is happening at present will continue ad infinitum.<<

NOT SO – the bigger picture is religiously motivated namely Islam. The above are band aid excuses for not calling it as it is.

Islam is the root of the problem with their inability to accept the legitimate sovereignty of Israel

Your example of Poland during WW2 is dinsingeneous. Poland did not invade Germany. Lebanese proxies have attacked Israel. If Hezbollah are not Lebanese, then who are they? Have they come from outer space? They are not only Lebanese they even have Cabinet Ministers in the Lebanese Government.

oh MonashLibertarian, You know theres a real problem when people start quoting Dr Goebbels, I mean, Bill O'reilley

Carl: 99% of the time, O'Reilly, like most in the media, is either an idiot or self-serving. However, that doesn't mean he can't be right sometimes, which in this case he is.

Personally, I can't see an end to any of this any time soon. The Israeli move has been so counter-productive to its own cause because it's been so over the top. Likewise, I doubt the sincerity of any of the other players in this conflict (and the entire region). There are far too many people with a vested interest in maintaining the nonsense for there to be peace any time soon. Given the extreme hatred being bred into the children on both sides, I doubt there will be peace well beyond my lifetime. I even have to question the sanity of people (on both sides) who get so worked up about a region that collectively is a barren wasteland that has nothing and produces nothing. I just don't understand how anyone can consider it worth sticking around for. I'd be getting the hell out of Dodge to go somewhere civilised.

BLAME ? sure.. Britain (Supported Druze) Syria (Druze/Shia) Turkey (Its empire)?

Ask Walid Jumblat leader of the Druze in 2006 what his grandfather did in 1860 !

http://www.cedarland.org/1860.html <==please READ this to be informed.

[Trumpets sounded. Turks ran through the barracks gathering the Christians from its three floors and forcing them at bayonet point into the parade arena. After a few minutes to allow the Turks time to take to the terraces so as to be able to observe the forthcoming spectacle, the gates were thrown open and the Druze rushed in and the butchery began. After firing a volley, the Druze set on the Maronites with swords, hatchets and bill-hooks. Those who tried to escape by the gate were either cut down by the turks or turned over to the Druze. Not a sole was spared. The orders were explicit, no Christian was to be left alive. At sunset, Naisie Jumblatt inspected the dead and congratulated her men on a job well done. An English traveler, Mr. Graham, who was in Hasbaya after the massacre, in a letter to Lord Dufferin states: 'From the wounds I have seen, both on the living and the dead, it would appear that the assassins went to work with the most systematic cruelty; ten, tweleve, and fourteen deep cuts on the body of a person are not unfrequent...In short everything was used which came to hand; and, according to the nature of the weapon, hands and limbs were cut off, or brains dashed out, or bodies mangled.]

NOTE......Britain_supported_the_Druze ! Rancitas..?

And Steve B cries out at Maroubra “Yes... I know about this savagery”

Greg Barns your shallowness is obscene.

Does anyone really think it would be different for the Jews if Israel was weak ?

Listening to the comments by the ‘innocent civilians’ fleeing Sth Lebanon, it is clear that attitudes toward non-Muslims have not changed. Support for Hezbollah is culpable guilt.

God said to Abraham Gen12:3
“Whoever curses_you, I will curse” and so the bombs fall ?.

Greg Barns quotes, rather approvingly, from former CIA analyst Kathleen Christison who says that: "A nation that mandates the primacy of one ethnicity or religion over all others will eventually become psychologically dysfunctional."

Has Barns stopped to think that on this basis many other Middle East nations such as Saudi Arabia (where culture revolves almost entirely around the religion of Islam), or those which officialy proclaim themselves to be Islamic - such as the Islamic Republic of Iran - are equally, if not moreso, "psychologically dysfunctional"?

I can't defend Israel's current military initiative, which I think is a gross over-reaction to the Hizbollah actions, however calling Israel a "failed state", or implying that it is fast becoming one does not help solve problems when Israel is surrounded by a grab-bag of other equally 'failed' nations, several of which lust for its total destruction.

Well, after viewing all the arguments , I can think of one question for you all...,

If your neighbor continually threw rocks, or whatever over the fence and caused you or your property injury or damage... How long would it take you to retaliate, and also after allegedly resolving the issue, when it reoccurs , how far would you take the retaliation.. And how many times must it occur , for you to brand it as final...

Peace is wonderful.. or it was , here, but not with the influence of the disruptive..

MonashLibertarian,

You're out of touch if you think Israel voluntarily returned Sinai after the '67 war. The Egyptians retook large parts of in the '73. They crossed the Suez and beat the bejesus out of the Israeli's. Peace was brokered, with eventually Israel forced to withdraw to it's pre '67 borders. Peace treaties were made with Anwar Sadat in the 1978 when he was Egyptian President, at Camp David with Jimmy Carter and the land grabbing Menachan Begin. They wouldn't have been signed if the US hadn't exerted pressure on the Israelis.

If you were to look at the 'bits and pieces' of the West Bank Israel proposed to return, take a look at that bloody fence, and see where Israel outrightly refuses to remone it's illegal settlers you'd not make the extraordinary and false claim 'Israel offered to remove its people for (sic) the vast majority of the West Bank'

What world are you living in?

Oh that's right... O'Reilly's. There's a view other than O'Reilly's.
If the Palestinains were given a far go, ie. their own state with fair borders (pre '67) support for the violence of Hezbollah and Hamas would wither.

Haha 2bob

The Israeli's claim they invaded Lebanon because two of their soldiers were kidnapped... Just as laughable as your rewrite.
I'll bet Hezbollah outlast any and all Israeli governments that are not prepared to meet the expectations of the Palestinians and with a return to the pre'67 borders.

You know you keep quoting UN resolutions to support your view.
Well explain away the non-compliance with this one, Resolution 242.

"It calls for the "withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" (see semantic dispute) and the "[t]ermination of all claims or states of belligerency".
It also calls for the recognition of all established states by belligerent parties (Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan) of each other and calls for the establishment of defensible boundaries for all parties"

Coach

Define Israeli.

Jeremy29,

Many of the members of Hezbollah are Palestinian refugees. They were forced out of Palestine by the Israelis in '48.

Ozken

If you'd taken part of your neighbour's land, built fences around it, exploited him, had the aid and support of the neighbourhood's biggest and toughest, then when you trespassed in a menacing fashion, which resulted in your neighbour then throwing pebbles at your fortress, would you try to demolish his home and move him on just so you could take more of his land?

There are many more views than the propaganda merchants.

The history of failed Blitzkreigs :- Germany blitzkreiged London and Coventry and lost the war. America blitlkreiged Vietnam,Laos Cambodia,Korea,Iraq and lost those wars.Now Israel has embarked on the same murderous strategy. The Lebanese democratically elected Hezbollah mainly because Hezbollah provided the structures necessary to support the people. Ditto for the Palestinians who democratically elected Hamas. Obviously the American backed regimes failed the people in those countries, typical of American backed regimes in South American nations which brutally suppressed their people. Why is it that with all the billions of dollars that have flowed into most Arab nations from oil revenue over sixty years that the vast majority of Arabs live in squalor? When you have millions of people living in squalor while they watch the wealth of their nations flowing to foreign businesses, its too easy to convince the poor to strap a bomb on and create havoc,especially when they have nothing to lose. Greed created these problems. Sharing the wealth will solve most of them. America would have had no problems winning over the Iraqi people if they dropped food parcels and basic necessities instead of bombs. Despite the devastation they cause the people,wars are a gold mine for businesses.Its a pity politicians are so bereft of skills that the only way they can balance budgets or grow economies is to start a war (with poorer counries,of course). Democracy can't survive such dismal actions.

I cannot endorse the Israeli position of using disproportionate force which punishes the innocents.
If Hezbollah and Hamas are carrying out a proxy war on behalf of Syria and Iran, so are the Israeli's carrying on a proxy war on behalf of the USA.
I appreciate the author's article to put some balance in the debate. The fault does not solely reside with the Lebanese or Palestinians.

Greg Barnes opened this article with
“Israel is fast becoming a failed state.
The Lebanese people have done nothing to deserve the wrath of the Israeli political and military establishment. They are innocent bystanders, in the same way millions of Poles were in World War II when, sandwiched between the Soviet Union and Germany, they suffered immeasurably.”
How Ironic he chooses a comparison to Poland, where so many Jews fell at the hands of the Nazi, I wonder where he stands on the matter of the Warsaw Ghetto (some of the millions of Poles who were also Jews)?

I would observe “the Lebanese people have allowed Hezbollah to infiltrate the government and social institutions. Hezbollah could not exist without support of some portion of the “Lebanese” people, so whilst his statement might be partially true. Thus, it is a truism and clearly, inapplicable to those Lebanese who both support and are complicit in the actions of the terrorist organisation of Hezbollah.

It shows that the “failed state” is really Lebanon, where its own government, military and civil services cannot control the terrorist organisation within its midst.

Having read that part of the putrefying drivel, there is little incentive and no merit in reading on what amounts to just more deluded slop from that incongruous place known as “Barnies World”.

Have you all looked in the mirror today? What did you see? Did you see the face of a Hezbollah, Lebanese or Palestinian fed up with being tormented and tortured by the Israelis? Or did you see the face of an Aryan pretending to be a christian while condoning the massacres of Lebanese people who had nothing to do with the holocaust?

Get a grip. The question of the need for a Jewish state are a nonsense when only 39% of the world's Jews want to live there and are spread all over the world. We have 100,000 Jewish people here and 300,000 muslims from all over the world.

Why are the Jewish more important to us and why do we take sides. We must remain neutral and then recognise that Greg and Antony and other Israel critics are correct. Go back and read the stories of women dying in child birth because they cannot get through the blockades or their babies dying because they cannot get a pass to the hospital.

It would take Palestine 17,000 years to accomplish what we did in the holocaust yet these one sided rants by so many are achieving nothing.

Not one person anywhere has the right to murder another - we put murderers in prison for life remember?

Do we wait for the reports like those from Haditha, My Lai, Stephen Green and his raping, murderous rampage, the utter catastrophe that is Iraq and Afghanistan?

Read back on the rhetoric of the west before the invasion of Iraq - then read the bull coming from the Israelis - a large number of whom have US accents by the way.

This is not and will never be right - blowing up ambulances, using cluster bombs in civilian areas, displacing nearly 1 million people - for what? 2 soldiers taken to force the release of some of the 9,000 political prisoners held by Israel?

Don't think so. This is way to co-ordinated and the US looked way too unsurprised to me. This is a proxy to drag in Iran and you all know it.

Marilyn,

The Christian fundamentalists on this forum will view your empathy for Lebanese civilians as a sign of weakness, and will prefer not to think about the suffering that has occurred, the ends (the destruction of hizbollah, which will not be achievd) justifies the means according to them. Pretty easy stance to take from 15,000 kms away.

I belive the current death toll of civilians is 10 Lebanese for every 1 Israeli, another fact they will ignore. And with the Western Propaganda apparatus in full swing, they will continue to beleive this whole thing started with the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier, and will ignore the fact that a Gaza beach was shelled killing a family of 8, and that this was the point where things started to go downhill.

The Christian extremists on this forum who condone the Israeli actions are no better than the Hezbollah extremists who do the same.

Palestinian talk.

The speaker is Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Member of the Palestinian
Authority-appointed "Fatwa Council" and former acting Rector of
the Islamic University in Gaza.

On killing Jews and Americans:

"O brother believers, the criminals, the terrorists - are the
Jews, who have butchered our children, orphaned them, widowed our
women and desecrated our holy places and sacred sites. They are
the terrorists. They are the ones who must be butchered and
killed, as Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them: Allah will
torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help
you to overcome them, and will relieve the minds of the
believers..."

"Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any
country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them,
kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans
who are like them - and those who stand by them - they are all in
one trench, against the Arabs and the Muslims because they
established Israel here, in the beating heart of the Arab world,
in Palestine. ... .”

On making peace with Israel:

"Even if an agreement of Gaza is signed - we shall not forget
Haifa, and Acre, and the Galilee, and Jaffa, and the Triangle and
the Negev, and the rest of our cities and villages. It is only a
matter of time. The weak will not remain forever weak, and the
strong will not remain forever strong... If we are weak today...
and we are not able to regain our rights, then at least we have
to pass on the banner - waving high - to our children and
grandchildren..."

"...We will not give up a single grain of soil of Palestine,
..."

continued

Israeli talk.

" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.
"The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.
"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969
"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.
Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

Us. Australian government’s silence gives tacit approval to terrorism.

Irresponsible talk worse than this can be found on the net. This propaganda must stop.

Rancitas says: This malicious propaganda is where it starts. It now ends with innocent civilian deaths and tragedy far out-weighing combatants losses. Rulers must STOP this war talk. War/terrorism itself is darkness and must STOP. The Irish people given short shift to the IRA/UDF stupidity – it is ultimately in the peoples’ best interest to stop - to distance themselves from fascistic sentiments.

It would be better for all, if rulers became leaders and worked "to foster mutual understanding and tolerance and shall accordingly abstain from incitement, including hostile propaganda, against each other.” (from a Palestine/Israel agreement).

Here is another perspective for the Supporters of the Israeli actions worth reading from a Beirut editor.He has better credentials to comment than most of the posters on this forum

Rice's Fantasy Ride
Rami G. Khouri
July 24, 2006

Rami G. Khouri is editor-at-large of the Beirut-based Daily Star, published throughout the Middle East with the International Herald Tribune.


http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/07/24/rices_fantasy_ride.php

Greg my compliments on your thoughtful article all you have to do is read the comments below you to realize you have pretty much hit the nail on the head. The only complaint I have is that you give the impression that Israel’s immoral behavior in Lebanon is a relatively new phenomenon, it isn’t. Their immoral conduct of war has been evident since the Balfour Declaration. During their war of independence after the UN split Palestine into two they conducted such a policy of ethnic cleansing of the Arabs from the territories they conquered that was unparalleled in its barbarity to this date. The only difference today is that President Bush is giving them a totally free hand and they don’t even have to give lip service to the word humanity, remember Israel is god’s chosen country for his chosen people and no one has a right to question god’s choice. Don’t you remember Qana? That is Israel bombing civilians who took refuge at a UN station. Now its ambulances, telling civilians to leave their homes and then bombing the convey that resulted. Bombing TV stations, highways, roads, bridges, ports, the airport, civilian residential areas, apartment blocks, the electricity grids in fact as they promised sending the country back 20 years. Disproportionate doesn’t even begin to describe their actions.

Religion religion, they are all in the wrong.

israel is bad, the muslim opposers are mad, and they will all end up sad and ripped apart.

At least both countries will undergo a construction boom after this!

Terrific piece, Greg. I have only one quibble. The "great Zionist dream" you refer to was actually a nightmare from the beginning. It all boils down to the fact that a political movement, Zionism, based exclusively on a particular ethnic grouping, European Jews, came to Palestine, not to live alongside its existing inhabitants, but to establish an ethnic state run by Jews, in the interest of Jews. As such it could only be established at the expense of the existing non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine and so posed an existential threat to them. The entire history of the Zionist project in Palestine since 1948 is a history of the expansion of an ethnically exclusive Jewish state and the corresponding contraction and diminution of the lives of Palestine's non-Jewish inhabitants. Israel has no moral compass, as you correctly say, but not because it has somehow 'lost its way'. It has no moral compass because its ideological underpinning, political Zionism, is based not on universal moral values but on ethnic exclusivism..

Keith,

Egypt took part of the Sinai back in ’73, then lost it when Ariel Sharon led an armoured brigade to the Suez, which they crossed, and headed for Cairo. The Egyptian army was stopped by the Israeli army, and Cairo was saved by the UN which brokered a ceasefire. The Syrian army launched a massive assault, which was stopped at huge cost (esp. to the 7th Armoured), but it was stopped. The Israeli army then headed for Damascus, which was saved by the UN ceasefire as well, at the cost of the Golan Heights (including sheba’a/shaba farms).

The consequence of the Egyptian army being soundly defeated in the Sinai was the secret talks between Israel and Egypt, which resulted in the ex-Irgun leader, Menachim Begin being given a Nobel peace prize, the dismantling of the settlements in the Sinai by Sharon, and the return of the Sinai to Egypt in return for peace. Note however, that settlements and territory were given up in exchange for recognition and peace between the two countries, both of which live up to this to this day.

Peace cannot be unilaterally imposed, and unless both sides want it, it will not work. Therefore, until Lebanon concedes that it cannot win this war, and complies with its obligations under UNSCR425, Israel is not obligated to stop, and frankly shows no signs of doing so. The Lebanese should really not expect International pressure to save them, they squandered their opportunity for peace by choosing war, the ball is in their court.

Instead of putting pressure on Israel, the International community could best aim at disarming Hizbollah, but of course that is way too hard?

On the legal front, there is a major difference between targeting terrorists hiding amongst civilians, and targeting civilians intentionally.

Until there is an effort by the Lebanese to disarm Hizbollah, the war will continue.

Egypt & Jordan have treaties with Israel, Syria doesn’t & does not recognise the States right to exist, when has Israel not recognised Syria?

Inshallah

2bob

I vowed never to read anything Greg Barnes churns out, and I have stuck to that vow.

Reading posters’ comments, however, was enough to show that he hasn’t changed his nutty views – anti-Israel and praise for those wonderful Hezbollah ‘freedom fighters’.

Noticed that Carl and Rancitas are still on illegal substances, and Strewth doesn’t seem to realise the proper meaning of ‘terrific’ if he agrees with Barnes

“Disproportionate Force” is politico speak for “I do not know what I am talking about”

The “value” attached to the statement depends entirely upon where you stand in the world.

Some third rate African bureaucrat, currently doing a hopeless job of running the UN, might consider, from the lofty heights of a New York Office block, that something represents “Disproportionate Force”

However, a Jewish conscript soldier might regard the same “force” as being entirely “proportionate”, especially if he is one of the conscript soldiers who has been captured by Hamas or Hezbollah.

He probably has no problem with “proportionality” as some terrorist runs around with a sword ready to behead him or worse, slowly starts to torture him to death.

My sympathy is with the poor bloke captured by terrorists.

So, before everyone decides to play the self-righteous, I suggest you remember, all War represents a mixture of both proportionate and disproportionate force.

Better the Democracies of the world applied “disproportionate force” in using atomic bombs on Japan during WWII, than leaving a single allied soldier in a POW camp doomed to a lingering and heinous death.

Leigh, there is merit in your post, particularly the “ignoring Barnes” bit.

Col Rouge, Disproportionate force, you know the only type that Israel believes in, is when in order to rescue 2 captured soldiers you lay siege to an entire country of 4.5 million and destroy that country's civilian infrastructure. What would you call it other than disproportionate?

2002 ABC Foreign Correspondent interview with Jennifer Byrne.

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s511530.htm

"Professor Martin van Creveld, of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem is Israel's most prominent military historian. In this interview with Jennifer Byrne he claims that despite the recent increase in Israel's military operations, the huge Israeli defence forces will inevitably lose to the Palestinians."

For the reasons given in the interview Israel has been desperate for peace - disengaging wherever possible.

Why attack Lebanon then?

AMAL SAAD GHORAYEB

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/commentary/commentaryother.asp?file=julycommentary582006.xml

"As a scholar who has devoted much of my career to following Hezbollah, I have a simple answer. I’m sure that Hezbollah had envisaged, though perhaps not expected, a response of this kind. By provoking its southern neighbour, Hezbollah knew it would present Israel with a ghastly choice.

I’ve been reading this script for 11 years now, interviewing political, media and security officials from Hezbollah. And they have given me insights into the party’s motives that go well beyond the prisoner exchange that it publicly claims.

Hezbollah hopes to set a new precedent in the Arab world, as its leader Hasan Nasrallah revealed in his latest televised speech: He characterised his movement as a “spearhead of the (Islamic) umma” and declared the conflict as “surpassing Lebanon ... it is the conflict of the umma,”

As to what is going to happen now, how could anyone disregard Spengler given his seeming prescience over the years?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG25Ak01.html

I'm sympathetic to authors who have to write articles to eat, but I do feel sorry for those Mr Barnes adivised if his latest article is typical of his depth of thought.

Perhaps he is best to stick to Oz politics?

In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon. Militarily it was successful, politically it was a failure. It was Israel's first political-military failure, as very previous military campaign resulted in Israel getting extra land.

In July 2006 Hezbollah has captured two Israeli soldiers. In 1967 Israel captured how many Palestinians?

Israel has the right to defend itself, so does Lebanon. In 1940-1944 the Germans treated the French Resistance as terrorists, and the French population as hostages. Looking back we see French resistance fighters, operating out of areas that were nominally under the control of French authorities as Freedom fighters, not terrorists.

Germany was eventually kicked out of France by the Western Allies. In 1944 Germany could have argued, as strongly as Israel could have argued in 1950, that it had a right to occupy territory outside its previously delineated borders. Why didn't the rest of the world just let Germany have France?

Can someone explain the difference to me between Oradour-sur-Glane and Qibya?

Marilyn's post seemed a little empty without reference to refugees and asylum shoppers.

Disproportionate force is a new concept in hostilities. I always thought the idea of hostilities was to win. Should Israel tone it down a little? Maybe Israel should resort to a daily volley of rockets fired into bustling towns along Lebanon's coast.

Sage wrote:

"Disproportionate force is a new concept in hostilities. I always thought the idea of hostilities was to win. Should Israel tone it down a little? Maybe Israel should resort to a daily volley of rockets fired into bustling towns along Lebanon's coast."

To the inhabitants of the West bank, each Zionist settlement has represented a barrage or rockets being delivered each day since the establishment of the settlements.

Those settlements disrupt and fragment Palestinian life, which is what they are intended to do. If Israel really wants peace then it should dismantle every settlement on the West Bank, and delineate a border now.

Of course we know what Israelis do to Prime Ministers who actually try to achieve peace.

The problem in the area of greater Palestine is that BOTH sides are addicted to blood: just enough to maintain the body politic that feeds on it, without draining the life completely. Politicians on both sides need the shedding of blood to justify their position, which is why there will never be an end to war in the Middle East.

Israel is a mistake, and now its going rogue. Failed? Not yet, mainly because its a heavily subsidised religious Disneyland.

The leaders in DC, London and Canberra who back Israel are out of touch, they live in a fantasy cloud landthat only real power can create, for the ability to project real power is the begining of hubris.

Israel has about ten years in it, maybe fifteen. The real quesiton is how many human beings are going to die before the truth is admitted, and allowed to set us free.

Israel is a mistake.

Meika,

By your logic, surely Australia is also a mistake: after all, its intended purpose was a convict colony and since by today's moral standards it is wrong to sentence a person for 14 years of hard labour because they were hungry and stole a loaf of bread, so should Australia disappear in 10-15 years... Inshallah.

Whatever the Zionist roots of Israel - right or wrong, and whatever the convict roots of Australia, the fact is that both countries are now home to millions who only wish to live peacefully in a modern and free democratic state - something that extremist islam would never allow.

You know well (but perhaps you grin about it) that if Israel falls, Hezbullah and their Iranian masters will not stop at that: Europe and then Australia will be the next in line in preparation for the ultimate attack on the Big-Satan, the U.S.A. to attain Islamic world-domination.

Australia should consider the current war in the middle east as our own front line. Had Europe and Australia been fully educated about the real intentions and capabilities of the Hezbullah, we would not consider even a nuclear bomb as "over-reaction".

One point must be made clear:
Yes, there is an Arab/Palestinian-Israeli conflict going on for nearly 100 years and we may have different views about it, but that conflict will have to wait because the current war is a different story that goes well beyond it: Iran and Hezbullah are not Arabs, they are the enemies of both Israel and Arabs and practically everyone else. Yes, they may cynically use the Israeli-Arab conflict to divide-and-conquer, but once they win over Israel, they will do the same to the Suni Arabs, including the Palestinians which they currently flatter (not to mention the poor Christians of Lebanon), but really care nothing about (Nasrallah even declared openly to the Arabs that he "does not care about them").

For our children to live, Iranian terrorist cancer must be totally uprooted, better before it acquires nuclear weapons.
We are most fortunate that this war occurs now and not in 2-3 years.

Sage there is no such thing as an asylum shopper except in the enfeebled brain of Philip Ruddock and those who support him. The fact is that in the refugee convention there is this little clause that Ruddock forgot to tell you about - that is that if people have EFFECTIVE protection in another country they are not entitled to protection here. The very fact that 98% of the so called asylum shoppers are now permanent residence as genuine refugees gives the lie to the shopper tripe once and for all I would have thought.

In Sydney is a man who was with Ariel Sharon during the massacres of Shatila and Sabra in 1982 who has never been charged for his heinous crimes, never been locked up in detention and has made a free life in our country for 13 years. He will never be charged.

While he lived freely in the community a lovely young man named Akram Al Masri and then Mohammed Al Kateb, appealed to the courts for release from detention because DIMA said they could not be refugees from the Gaza but of course they are stateless.

So the court said we cannot let them stay locked up until there is peace in Palestine - then Ruddock appealed to the High court and now we have a law that says stateless Palestinians can indeed be locked up for the whole of their lives just for being stateless.

Syria has taken in 1 million Iraqis who have fled from the coalition of the killing, they have 420,000 displaced Palestinians and now already 120,000 Lebanese fleeing our great allies the Israelis while we sit idly by and our leaders say "go for it".

Makes a complete nonsense of our whining about 4,000 refugees at the most in any given year don't you think? Syria has a population of only 19 million yet they managed over 1.5 million without whining and whingeing and they have not even signed the refugee convention while we have.

Now Sage, try and come up with something sensible to say hey?

Yuyutsu

Some common sense at last.

Its good to read a post where somone is able to put a few words together and tell it like it is.


Thank you

Amazing that two brothers by lineage, Joshua and Ishmail, now israelites and arabs have shed so much of each others blood in the name of the same thing, protect the holy land.

The majority of them want to live and work together, eg. On the day Yitzak Rabin was assassinated he attended a 200,000 people peace demonstration and this was after smaller but more agitated supporters for continuation of war like methods against palestinians to continue possession of occupied lands.

So obviously smaller proportion of their population want to possess or take possession of the land by war like means. which is driving the current events. Ok... my suggestion is this, isolate them and remove them from the main population that wants peace. Give these people, men and women, hand weapons so that they can see the eyes of the sisters and brothers they kill (the air force officer pushing a button to release indiscriminate killing weapon is the greatest promoter of war)... and put them together to work their issues out...War over, and the rest of the people can work together to achieve the same, look after the holy land...

Peace must return to holy land. Its the place for mankind to feel love and live with love for each other. Somewhere all of us can go when the world wears us down, so we may know the excellence to live right that men have the capacity for...

Sam

Greg begins:
"Israel is a society without a moral compass."
What really does that mean?
It can only mean that all the other countries have a moral compass.
If they had a moral compass then innocent cilvilans, men and women and children would not be killed in Iraq would they?
Just who has a moral compass, when the whole world has lost its way.

Glenwriter: It's all relative, of course, but any study of history since WW2 would reveal that in the game of tearing up international law and engaging in acts of serial aggression against the neighbours, Israel and the US would win hands down. The rest of the world certainly has its faults, but with these two we're in the realm of psychopathology.

At 11:49:09 PM on July 25th, Hamlet aka the Prince of Denmark, said the following: "Of course we know what Israelis do to Prime Ministers who actually try to achieve peace."

I would suggest on the basis of this comment that should we should forthwith stop any Muslims travelling anywhere. After all, we know what they do when they get on planes.

Rancitas here speaking on behalf of Rancitas.
Leigh says:
“You (Irfan) keep bad mouthing people who dare to criticise Islam in a pathetic attempt to keep our minds off their foul Islamist deeds. As the saying goes, not all warriors are combatants.

Unlike you, I will not use any of the derogatory names that could be applied to you. Suffice to say that I hold you in contempt. Your childish name calling will not silence me.”

(You'd have to be a bit girlie to let Irfan silence you).

Leigh, like a true hypocrite, says: “Noticed that Carl and Rancitas are still on illegal substances - “

Now that is groundless “bad mouthing” of people who dare to criticise Israel.

You don’t use derogatory names? No you just tell direct, derogatory unfounded lies to childishly assassinate the character of those whose information you can’t debate without getting into one of your tizzies.

Leigh you really need to do a bit of self analysis.

Leigh I guess you would be up to the Nazi’s third measure (see below).

You, Leigh, are proving beyond doubt that you are a dishonest poster. You have destroyed our own credibility. Keep it up.

Right-winger rules of engagement.

First, you ignore the charges, hoping the information will not be given
widespread distribution.
Second If the information starts reaching too many people, you ridicule the
information and the persons giving the information.
Third If that doesn't work, your next step is character assassination. If the
author or speaker hasn't been involved in sufficient scandal, you are
adept at fabricating scandal against the person or persons.
Fourth If none of these are effective, you are know to resort to physical attacks.

But, NEVER do you try to prove the information wrong.

Leigh to a tee. You've lost your way as a poster.

drooge “What would you call it other than disproportionate?”

As I commented, originally, what anyone sees as “disproportionate force” depends on the perspective.

It is all nice and dandy for the Secretary General of the UN to proclaim “disproportionate force” but it is not his “captivity” and “very life” which is at stake.

I have watched the Israeli / Palestinian conflict drag itself across the decades. It reminds me of the rhyme of the ancient mariner – just substitute Israel for the Mariner and Palestine for the dead albatross around his neck..

Whilst Israel has not always acted in a manner I would, personally condone or support, the Palestinian Authority has NEVER acted in a manner I would personally condone or support.

The description which sticks most convincingly to Arafat (and from him Palestinians in general) was “he was a man who never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity”.

Despite a momentarily glimmer that, with Arafat’s death, things could change, they have not.

Now Hamas are dragging the Palestinians backward, into a morass of poverty, not Israel.

It is Hezbollah who are taking Lebanon into the same bog of deprivation as the Palestinians, not Israel. It is Syria and Iran who are fighting a proxy war using the Palestinians as their dupes.

The sooner the UN recognises that Palestinians have demonstrated a fundamental inability to govern themselves and need a colonial authority to administer them, the sooner the lifestyle of ordinary folk in the Gaza strip will improve.

The sooner the organisation which is deemed illegal by most democratic countries, Hezbollah, is deemed illegal and driven into extinction in Lebanon, the sooner the ordinary majority of non-Hezbollah Lebanese will be able to resume the productive and peaceful lifestyle which they previously enjoyed as a French Colony.

All the appeasers and apologists – Israel has fought before for its very existence, since 1948 and most particularly 1967.
When Egypt drove tanks into Israel, it was defeated and eventually saw the light.

It is Hamas and Hezbollah who are blocking out that same light from ordinary Palestinians and Lebanese.

Traditional lyrics by people who understand the futility of war.

Oh how do you do, young Willie McBride?
Do you mind if I sit here down by your graveside,
And rest for a while in the warm summer sun?
I've been walking all day, and I'm nearly done.
And I see by your gravestone you were only nineteen
When you joined the great fall-in named Nineteen-Sixteen.
Well I hoped you died quick, and I hoped you died clean,
Or Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene?

Did they beat the drums slowly,
Did they play the fife lowly,
Did they sound the death march as they lowered you down?
Did the band play the last post and chorus,
Did the pipes play the flowers of the forest?

And Did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind?
In some loyal heart, is your memory enshrined?
And though you died back in Nineteen-Sixteen,
To that loyal heart you're forever nineteen,
Or are you a stranger without even a name,
Forever enshrined behind some old glass pane,
In an old photograph torn, tattered and stained,
And faded to yellow in a brown leather frame

Chorus

The sun's shining down on these green fields of France,
The warm wind blows gently and the red poppies dance.
The trenches have vanished long under the plow,
No gas, no barbed wire; no guns firing now!
But here in this graveyard, that's still no mans land,
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand,
To a man's blind indifference to his fellow man,
And a whole generation where butchered and damned

Chorus

And I can't help but wonder oh Willie McBride,
Do all those that lie here know why they died,
Did you really believe them when they told you the cause,
Did you really believe that this war would end wars?
Well the suffring', the sorrow, the glory, the shame,
The killing and dying it was all done in vain.
Oh Willie McBride, it all happened again,
And again and again and again and again!

Chorus
end
Stop.

Thanks Greg for your gutsy piece ,
Israel certainly appears to be heading for failed state status .
How can they explain a missile right through the "+" sign of the RED CROSS vehicle and the targeting of the UNITED NATIONS POST and killing of the UN peace-keepers.
They have managed [by hard work and continued stupidity] to get a large part of the world's opinion against them and now stand condemned. No amount of their slick PR will help.
It's a horrible and gross overreaction by the Israeli Defence Force that damns many of its peace loving citizens to a life of fear.

Col Rouge wrote:

"The sooner the organisation which is deemed illegal by most democratic countries, Hezbollah, is deemed illegal and driven into extinction in Lebanon, the sooner the ordinary majority of non-Hezbollah Lebanese will be able to resume the productive and peaceful lifestyle which they previously enjoyed as a French Colony."

You that we in the civilised world shouldn't treat Hezbollah and Hamas the same way that Irgun, the Stern Gan and Hanagah, that should have been driven into extinction but instead became the mainstream of Israeli politics?

Col, can you point out to me the differences between Irgun, the Hanagah and the Stern Gang in 1945-1948 and Hamas and Hezbollah today?

By the way, Lebanon was never a French colony, it was a French mandate, there is a great difference. Lebanon was liberated from the Turks around the same time that Palestine was, and by the same people, that is, Australians fighting under a British general.

Lebanon shows that Arabic people can form a peaceful government when left alone. The Palestinians could also have formed a stable government, except for the influx of Europeans into Palestine from the 1890s that continues today, but that peaked in 1945-1955.

The Palestinians were never given a fair, unpressured, chance to form a state of their own.

Kartiya,

It is indeed tragic.
Two days ago, during heavy fighting, Israeli planes hit by mistake 5 Israeli ground soldiers. Earlier in the war, two Cobra helicopters collided and another hit a high-voltage cable. And today it was the UN. Obviously, the legend of Israeli Defence Force being perfect Superman is just a myth and human errors do occur.

This level of accidents is still significantly lower than that of the US army in Iraq and Afghanistan or even the British and we should be proud that only our Australian army has so far managed to avoid such tragedies.

The more such errors occur on our front lines, terror succeeds and not just Israel but the whole civilized world achieves a "failed world status" and soon all of us, peace loving citizens, including in Australia, will be damned to a life of a fear.

One reminder among many for the complacent among us, of what it means to live under Islamic rule: Australia is a hot country and so is Iraq, sometimes reaching 50C. In Iraq with meagre electricity, ice-distributors were threatened to be killed if they continue. The reason? "there was no ice at the times of Mohammad"!

At this time of war, the 3rd world war between radical Islamic terrorism and the civilized world, we must understand that casualties are inevitable and count our blessings that so far the front lines are still far enough from our shores. We must encourage and give every support to those who do the fighting for us, even when they are less than perfect and make human errors, rather than wait and gamble on our lives that we would commit less accidents once the war reaches our door-step.

Hamlet,

"Lebanon shows that Arabic people can form a peaceful government when left alone"

Peaceful in what sense? finally not having a civil war? turning the other cheek (due to weakness, not saintliness) to Shiite terrorists, allowing them to amass 13000 anti-civilian missiles in their country?

I am also curious to learn about your view of the latest influx of Arabs into Europe?

Hamlet,

One reason why Hizbollah especially differs from Irgun & Haganah is that they fought only for a specific, well defined purpose, to form a jewish state, and in the particular case of Haganah, mainly to defend that state and the settlements within it. Unlike these, Hizbollah, having been provided with everything it wanted, continued to fight, and has now picked a fight with Israel for no apparent reason (please do not go into Haar Dov/Shaba (/Sheba'a) farms, it is entirely Syrian according to all pre2000 Lebanese & Syrian maps). If it had not done so, and simply restrained itself, it could well have had the opportunity to become similar to these organisations, but it did not, choosing instead to launch a purposeless attack on civilians, in a neighbouring country, for future political gain.

The other point, being why should HAMAS not be treated the same as Irgun/Haganah, is well made. In fact I strongly believe that the current teething problems aside; and provided it does not become as corrupt as the Fatah derivatives it replaces; it could well become a true political force, with the potential, and mandate, to negotiate a meaningful settlement. However, the attacks must stop before this can happen. Having control of a semi-autonomous region, they have an obligation not to allow their supporters to fire on their neighbours, or to advocate strikes on them, unless they feel that they can take Israel on in open warfare. This is the notion they are currently being disabused of at the present time, and it is hoped that they learn from it.

Hopefully for the Palestinians they will learn that attacks on Israel cost too much to be entertained as policy, only then is their any real prospect of peace.

Inshallah

2bob

2 Bob.

Your right of course except for one thing.


United europe will come out of this with the Germans never ending desire to dicate to the world and the muslims extream plan to take the west.

It will take a while yet but when it comes Australia will be taken quickly.

We live next door to the largest population of the muslim world.

We have stuff all soldiers and our young men are blown on drugs and women for that matter.

Its all part of their long term plan and they have been wrecking the west with drugs for years while funding their war at the same time.

Whats even more frightening is the disloyalty and stupidity of many Ausies.

They just dont get it that the only chance we have is to stop or control it over there.


When Australia is attacked and it will be they might see why Howards done what he has.

I am not a fan of either he or labour considering the cruelty to animals by live exports and intensive farming.

However we certainly need Howard to stay where he is because we are in for it sooner or later.

We have seen the good days and soon we will see where we have been sending our animals to because the public have not cared enough to do enough to stop the cruelty.

Karama is coming.

I call it Cow Karma.

We have bugger all chance of holding this beautiful country.

You would have thought the world had learned through sitting back and watching hitler but no.

They get on these pages and bag us because we try to stop it before it reaches our shores.

Peter Costello copped it because he pointed out our Ausies were being bred out.
For that they call him a racist.

Every country wants and needs to preserve its own .

More and more you see our men marrying non Australian girls.

The war started years ago but as usual the Ausies just didnt know it.

God Help this country because nothings going to save it.

Dear Wendy Lewthwaite,

Your post has raised concerns. Firstly that it was well thought out and written but with inclusion of fear inducing comments to drive a blind action much like what is happening over in middle east.

The numerous insinuation like 'muslim extreme plans to take over the west', 'Australia will be taken quickly' 'our young men and women are blown on drugs' 'disloyalty and stupidity of many Ausies' 'karma is coming' ' bugger of chance of holding this beautiful country' 'our men are marrying non Australian girls' 'sit back and watch hitler' and on

Intermixed is what you want: 'control it over there' 'we need Howard' 'they call him racist' and so on.

All with not one argument with accepted facts to substantiate it. Its very close to feminist driven propaganda and while the population anxiously watched for the fearful events that was said to be real, nobody was watching what the real issues that were discretely being implemented that harmed the population as a whole.

I would like to think that we live in a more mature world where only logic applied to cold hard facts that will drive action.

Sam
Ps~Karma is not a global application but at individual level for each own actions...bit like the common quote 'you reap what you sow'

Dear Rancitas :)

No mate...it did not start 'here' where you said......

Looking behind all those statements will lead you to ONE place....

Genesis Chapter 12

Abraham.......... Isaac and Ishmael

Isaac .......... Jews.... Promise of God for the land.

Ishmael..........Arabs....Promise of greatness, but NOT....the land.

Read the whole of Genesis from chapter 11 (for intro to 12) and then to the end :)

"The TRUTH...is in there" :)

Hamlet - I do recall Menachem Begin.

I do recall his involvement with the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem and was hunted for terrorist acts by the British (of which, by birth, I am one). I further recall he worked his way through the Israeli democratic processes to become Prime Minister of Israel (1977).

If I am allowed to quote Wikipedia

“Begin’s first significant achievement as (Israels) Prime Minister was to negotiate the Camp David Accords with President Sadat of Egypt, agreeing on the full withdrawal of the Israel Defense Forces from the Sinai Peninsula and its return to Egypt in 1978.”

– for which he and Sadat were jointly awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.

I would support the sentiment of 2Bob’s post, to make it clearer

Where the Israelis were working toward the creation of something, a Jewish state, Hezbollah (and Hamas) are working for the destruction something, the Jewish State.

Let the merit of anything be seem in terms of its intentions,

I for one would observe, those who work toward creation and betterment of things (and when needed, defend it) deserve our support.
Those who work solely toward the destruction of others (Hezbollah and Hamas) deserve their own destruction.

As for the medium of administration of Lebanon by France, - pure nit-picking on your part.

I am sure most Lebanese would welcome even the French back, compared to the terror of the Syrian secret police and their lackeys, Hezbollah

Israel has nuclear weapons and, I fear, the political will to use them.

It is time for the killing to stop.

I feel sick when hearing that so many people were killed in this place or that. How about we hear names and details of the people killed instead of abstract numbers.

Would we be able to argue in the abstract political genre if the deaths were reported like - Sarah, infant daughter of ... or Joseph, father of ... and grandfather to Sarah...

Or Private ..., father of ... and ..., husband of... son of ... and ... of Smallville California.

Real people are dying and being maimed and while this madness of war continues the young learn to hate very early.

Would the supporters of Israel be happy if they were given land in Australia or America to create an elitist Zionist state that is ever hungry for land, water and power?

The Australian webpage http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19925375-601,00.html has an article that states:
"A UN report released last night said the peacekeepers were told during each of the calls that the bombing would cease, but they were then hit by a precision-guided missile.

The attack came a day after hospital officials in southern Lebanon accused Israel of deliberately targeting ambulances clearly marked with the red cross, killing more than a dozen civilians, including children."

This is not conflict or war - it is COLD BLOODED MURDER.

That America, Australia and the UK can support the Israelis demonstrates the moral banckruptcy of its leaders.

This killing is not religion based - it is power and greed based - providing a light entertainment opportunity for bloggers to sing the praises of murderers.

Please do not bring God's name into any argument supporting this madness.

I am so embarrassed. Hear, hear, three chears to Boearz. My thinker engine is right hear next to my other brain cell. So what? You never done a typo? Throw ya'stones Boaz ya' big daft tosser (:.

You read Matthew 19:19. It pretty well makes Abraham redundant (to a degree).

Yours is a racist interpretation of the Bible.

Why does your God chose people who reject Jesus' Words? Wouldn't he choose them according to their behaviour. Don't tell me that the fighter pilots who are killing ordinary civilians consult Isaiah when they dump their deadly loads on families.

Isaiah Ch. 59 applies to Ehert Ohmet and the current gang of terrorists.

"Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins, and your sins hide his face from you that you will not hear.

"For your hands are defiled with blood; and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perversness.

"None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies, they conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity
...
Note in particular Ch 59: 6,7. It describes Israels current behaviour to a tee.

"Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works; their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands;

"Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; and wasting and destruction are in their paths.

"The way of peace they know not: and there is no judgement in their going: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth there shall not know peace.

This is pretty well Israeli rulers to a tee.

Then there is the "blessed are the peace makers" passage.

Which tells me that those who put on the "armour of righteousness" are not amongst the current crop of Israeli warmongers. Probably be those Israeli peace protestors.

Boaz sorry about the "hear, hear" thingo. I thought the quotation marks around 'here' were in reference to a mistake I noticed in one of my blogs where I had made a typo and spelt "here" as "hear". Just in case you were wondering.

Aka,

You obviously do not like Israel and Israel has nuclear weapons exactly to defend itself from people like you who wish to destroy it - otherwise it would be extinct long ago and I'm not sure you would be as eager to recite their names and relations, after all they are not "real people", so you are probably not interested in this: http://www.israel.org/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/In+Memory+of+the+Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+a.htm

The accidental killing of 4 UN peacekeepers was terribly tragic (do they also have names and relations, or only Arabs?) and Israel is deeply sorry for its intelligence error that wrongly identified their building as hostile, but how well you described yourself: "This killing is not religion based - it is power and greed based - providing a light entertainment opportunity for bloggers to sing the praises of murderers."

Would the supporters of Arabs be happy if they were given land in Australia or America to create an elitist Islamic state that is ever hungry for land, water and power?

- If Israel falls, this is exactly what will happen next.

Anyway, no point to continue because when irrational hate prevails, no amount of words and facts can make a difference.

Shalom alekhem yuyutsu,

I agree wholeheartedly, the level of anti-Israel hatred that seems to come out whenever there is an opportunity is daunting in this day and age. Is it based wholly on the current crisis, or is at least some of it derived from the historical problems between jews and goyim (careful, do not use the 'anti' word, or we will both be termed 'zionofascists' or something similar)?

This is the face of the new and improved 'blood libel', bloodthirsty jews seeking the blood of goys (what for this time, rosh hashanah perhaps?). Actually, purim would be good, you can get nearly anybody to drink nearly anything.

alekhem shalom

aharoni

Inshallah

2bob

Col Rouge wrote:

"here the Israelis were working toward the creation of something, a Jewish state, Hezbollah (and Hamas) are working for the destruction something, the Jewish State."

Unfortunately the creation of a Jewish state was predicated on the removal of the inhabitants from that land and the pre-emptive destruction of any potential Palestinian state covering the area. I would scarcely call that creative, more like lebenstraum.

It is interesting, the USS Liberty in 1967, Qana in 1996 and now the UN observers in 2006. Do I see a pattern here?

Sam Said

Yes Karma is a one on one thing and I meant it that way.

Your correct of course and every now and then I do get carried away.

Its not nice to scare people but fair dinkim some people here need it Sam.

USA gave far too much to their mates and of course the land should be returned to the others.

Still that said it wont stop there and we can only try to hold it off.

United Europe we will see one day I am afraid.

Until then I know you will find it strange but I dont see much difference between all of them.

Ghandi once said you can tell a nation by the way it treats its animals.

Surley any God from any land must be very angry at what all his people are doing.

Thats what I meant by Cow Karma.

As Australia is the largest exporter of live animals in the world and other animals I beleive we are well and truely on his list.

I find it hard to feel sorry for any of them who have turned their backs on gods creatures.

If you follow our religion there never has been much concern for animals.

Maybe thats the key that we all need to think about.

I saw Steve Fielding a few months ago and he certainly as not think its important either.

I just think that theres something wrong with any leader who has no compashion.

Its just not right somehow.


We reep what we sow and it will come home to us.


The rest is not Rocket science America will be broke and unable to save us this time.

We are right next door to a huge muslim country and we will one day reep our cow Karma.


So Sam Yes your correct and sometimes I am too.

Once its all over and the fighting stops world wide the animals will finally have peace from the cruelty of man.

I hope so Anyway.

Thank you Sam

FAIR GO Yuyutsu, flying around in circles in helicopters is one difficult manoevre , spotting unidentified soldiers doing something suspicious fits in to , but blowing up a large white painted building with various large black painted UN signs on it [and one that's been there for years] and also transmitting to the Israelis "don't shoot any more" to be considered fair game!
No, sadly YUYUTSU, they have lost the plot .

Kartia,

Bombing the UN is indeed a failure of Israel, a big failure. It is currently under investigation and hopefully we will soon hear the results. I don't believe that anyone deliberately wanted to bomb the UN, but if it is found that some stray officer of whatever rank did so, that officer will be charged for murder and will spend the rest of his life behind bars.

The more likely scenario is a mis-communication between intelligence and the air-force and artilery. It could even be caused by fatigue. Artilery does not see their target, so they can only rely on coordinates, and so are pilots: one cannot expect every pilot to know every building in Lebanon, so pilots must also believe the intelligence. After all, every terrorist could paint their house with UN signs, just as in the past, rockets were transfered by red-cross ambulances. How can you tell whether this is the case? well, that's what the intelligence is for, and this time they failed bitterly.

2bob,

Thank you for the support. However, I don't think that the current war has anything to do with the "historical problems between jews and goyim". I also think that "goyim" (=gentiles) is a derogatory term which should not be used (except when drunk and even then only between Jews and other Jews).

We have a case of Shiite Islamic extremists who strive for world domination and the Jews of Israel, due to their proximity, just happen to be among the first to block their path. Actually, they place the Israeli Jews in the same basket as Christians, calling them "European crusaders".

Yututsu

Your interesting.

So tell me whats the alternative to us sending troops to fight off these lunatics.?

I just dont see we have much choice if we want help come our turn to be attacked.

Do you?

I mean isnt it better to try to tear down their organisations before they group too much.

What alternatives do you see.

Its a funny world really. Watching those Muslim people on TV thanking the Australian Government for getting them out makes you proud to be Ausie.

Then you walk down the street and see these young muslim boys calling our girls names for wearing costumes to the beach and you just want to deport to lot of them.

Its very difficult to get a handle on the way one should feel over all.

Yututsa what do you think about our involement overseas.?

I look at India and think well they copped it while staying out so clearly its just them wanting to wipe out democracy world wide.

Thanks for your post it was interesting.

• Hamlet ..."Col Rouge, can you point out to me the differences between Irgun, the Hanagah and the Stern Gang in 1945-1948 and Hamas and Hezbollah today"? Actually earlier in 1940, an-extremely lethal Stern-Gang, a splinter faction of the revisionist Irgun-Group, combined of the terrorist power-brokers (jostling to-contest a place in the Zionist project), went as far as to make an offer -- to join the WWII on the Nazi side. Towards erection of the Zionist-Vatican upon the Haram-as-Sharif, on the national and totalitarian basis, bound by the treaty with the Nazi-Reich.

Due to the fact that supremacist Zionist hierarchy and their cultivated Nazi proxies had-a-common interest to-uproot assimilationalist Jew-lesser brethren of Europe to Palestine. Exposing thus diabolical relationship, where aloof Zionist movers-n-shakers did not merely fail-to-lead any resistance or ever defend Jew-lesser brethren survival, they in fact actively sabotaged all the efforts-made by the rival Jew-groups. While plotting instead with their fascist counterparts towards the Third-Reich sponsorship.

Not merely because it appeared powerful enough-to-impose Zionist colony in Palestine, but because radical-Nazi-practices were consonant with the racist-Zionist-aspirations. Though conveniently after the war connived victors concocted-a-myth as to devalue otherwise significant magnitude of the Zionist participation in crimes committed-against-the-humanity, by shifting focus of the inquiry entirely onto terrorist Stern-Gang, ran by Nathan Yalin-Mor and Israel Scheib (Eldad). The future Israeli Prime Ministers Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir chose to join at the time (Avraham Stern's freedom-fighters for Israel).

These facts give an-extra edge of topicality to what in any case has been already a highly controversial records study of the Zionism in a hey-day of escalated fascism. When diabolical Zionists were already in-bed with what-later-became known as Axis of Evil. Combined of the fascist Benito Mussolini's Italy and Tojo Hideki's Japan.

On March 29th, 1936, Zionists praised their Jew-Duce and his fascist regime at the opening of the Maritime School, where black-Nazi-uniformed Zionist-Youth Betar-Group (headed by Begin) trained young Jew sailors towards the Zionist savagery escapades in Palestine. Funded by the Fascist Government of Civitavecchia.

As to the diminished democracy repercussions effect down-under, please proceed to ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4625#47660

Hamlet “I would scarcely call that creative, more like lebenstraum.”

Call it what you want. We can do the “looking back in history” and blame this government or that government. We can damn to hell the signatories to the Balfour declaration, which promoted the idea of a Jewish Homeland.

When you have finished your tirade of pointless historic injustice you might be ready to focus on the here and now (I might ask, do you have any Irish heritage? It is a characteristic of the Celts to cling to supposed injustices which might have effected their ancestors – but have no impact on themselves. It is a pointless trait).

The here and now is, Israel exists. Lebanon Exists.

Hezbollah exists as a pariah and Hamas is putting itself into the same category. I take it you have something to say, then use your 2 x 350 word allocations wisely instead of just blowing smoke.

Leo Braun, I am not sure where you are coming from but can tell where you are going and the bleating self-righteousness is not the stuff which will resolve problems.

You should really accept the facts of life as they are – Israel now exists.
The population of Israel are not going to be pushed into the Mediterranean.
Hezbollah might have a lot of support for its reign of terror from Syria and Iran but it will fail and ultimately, Syria and Iran will also fall, they exist today only through intimidation and terror of their own populations. Syria is hell bent on revenge against the Lebanese for throwing them out 2 years ago. Eventually the Christian Lebanese will have endured enough and quietly terminate their Muslim antagonists and Israel will supply the hardware to help them do it.

At the end of the fight those standing will be those who really want peace. Hezbollah and its ranting fanatics have no use for peace, their power exists only in war. They have no substance, no constructive agenda, no future (beyond destruction of the Jews) and will be wasted.

And the sooner, the better.

Col Rouge wrote:

We can damn to hell the signatories to the Balfour declaration, which promoted the idea of a Jewish Homeland.

Ah, the Balfour Declaration! Have you ever actually read it, or considered its context?

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Have another read - it doesn't promise anything, in fact it doesn't offer anything more than moral support, and dubious at that - to try to get the Jews to support the British war effort at the time. And it specifically says that non-Jews should not be disadvantage - or don't you see that?

Just two years before, in 1915, in the same context, the British offered the Palestinians the same thing.

So why should Israel claim that Balfour gave them rights, and deny the Palestinians the same?

see

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1915mcmahon.html

"I am convinced that this declaration will assure you beyond all possible doubt of the sympathy of Great Britain towards the aspirations of her friends the Arabs and will result in a firm and lasting alliance, the immediate results of which will be the expulsion of the Turks from the Arab countries and the freeing of the Arab peoples from the Turkish yoke, which for so many years has pressed heavily upon them."

sounds a bit the same as Balfour, doesn't it?

Yes, Israel exists, and has the right to exist.

The Occupied Territories, aka West Bank and Gaza, aka Judea and Samaria and Yesha, depending on who you ask and what their intentions for those scraps of land are. The UN prefers Occupied Palestinian Territories.

Do Judea and Samaria have the right to statehood? Not according to those who consider them to be an integral part of Israel that are temporarily occupied, not by Israel, but by Palestinians. It is those who have planted settlements in order to carve up the territories and make them impossible to govern in a contiguous form by and who also consider that Judea and Samaria should never have the right to anything but the shadow of statehood.

Lebanon. An interesting little country, the south of which was occupied for 18 years: Israel thought that it could do in 1982 to Lebanon what it did in 1967 to Judea and Samaria. After all, didn't Solomon's and David's kingdom extend to the Litani River, that could provide Israel with even more water?

Would those of those supporters of Israel on this forum please state, for the record, whether they consider that Israel has a right to that 'Lebanese' territory, and if not, why then should Israel be able to maintain a claim over Judea and Samaria? 'The Bible' gives it all to them.

It was Israel's occupation of that Lebanese territory that unwittingly nurtured Hezbollah, in the same way that Israel, by its initial support of Hamas over the PLO has created the 'monster' that is in political control in Judea and Samaria.

So does Lebanon have the ‘right’ to exist? It appears not to have the right to exist as a modern state. It appears to not have the right to bridges, roads, industry and electricity. Israel says that it wants the Lebanese government to take control of southern Lebanon from Hezbollah, but then it attacks Lebanese military facilities. Withy a crippled military how is the Lebanese government meant to take control? Israel does not want a modern state to its north.

Yuyutsu,
I think you presume too much. you state that I "obviously dislike Israel."
How dare you assume to know my thoughts. I stated clearly that the conflict is madness.

I also noted that Israel has nuclear weapons and I fear they have the will to use them.
This does not make me anti-Israel, or by your distorted mental process, an enemy of such.

I happen to believe that killing people is wrong, and that bombing civilians and destroying their homes and country's infrastructure is an abomination.

Please take particular note that I have not taken specific sides in this as murder is murder. Israel just has the best array of weapons, compliments of America.

I also said that people who have died should be treated as real people and not just numbers. Contrary to your egotistical assumption on my thoughts, I think that all such victims regardless of which 'side' they are on should be named.

All of the people maimed and killed in such futile conflict are "real people", and that is my point. These are people with real family connedtions, aspirations, wants and needs.

The politics of the current Israel-Lebanon conflict seek to deny our common humanity.

You claim that the killing of the 4 UN peacekeepers was an accident - after 10 phone calls in 6 hours. Your assertion can only imply that the Israelis are incompetent or stupid.

Your arrogant assumption on my post truly does fit into the scenario of, as you state, when "irrational hate prevails, no amount of words and facts can make a difference."

Yuyutsu, you display an irrational assumption that everyone is out to pick on poor Israel. Grow up and start thinking for yourself.

Idiots blindly following false rhetoric are not only stupid but bloody dangerous

Initial results of the investigation about the killing of 4 UN observers:

Northern-command intelligence provided the air-force with 12 targets, claiming they were "most urgent", 7 of which were genuine Hezbullah targets, but 5 were wrong. While the planes were already on their way, the air-force control-officer identified in time 4 of the wrong targets as UN installations and canceled their bombing, but tragically missed the fifth.

It was not yet published why 5 UN targets were pointed, but I predict that the investigation will prove that it was a result of extreme pressure and fatigue, probably compounded with the information that an important northern-command intelligence base was severely hit by a Raad missile in the first day of the war.

----

Wendy,

Australia need not send any troops. Our moral and diplomatic support of Israel is sufficient at this stage. Specifically, we should use our diplomatic ties with Iran and Syria to tell them clearly that enough is enough.

----

Hamlet (for your records),

Israel has no right to (and no interest in) Lebanese territory.
Israel has no right to the West Bank and Gaza.
These territories were taken in a defensive war and Israel may keep any part of them to the extent necessary for protecting itself against those who wish to destroy it. However, these areas should remain strictly miltary zones where except the military, all Israeli citizens must be excluded.

Unfortunately, the leaders and most residents of these territories prefer the destruction of Israel over having a nice state of their own - otherwise, as far as Israel is concerned, they could have their state long ago. The previous regime did not want to become a state, because it would expose their corruption, and now, the Hamas does not want them to have a good comfortable life because it strives on their poverty: had they lived peacefully and comfortably they might imitate the western lifestyle and forsake Islam!

----

Aka,

Yes, Israel has the will to use nuclear weapons - but only as a last resort if in dire straights.

From the Age

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/08/13/1092340462338.html?from=storylhs

New homes may block 'road map'
August 14, 2004

Thousands of Jewish homes to be built in the West Bank undermine the "road map" to peace. Ed O'Loughlin reports from Jerusalem.

The Israeli Government moved ahead this week with plans to build thousands of Jewish homes in the occupied West Bank, despite promises to the United States and the international community to halt construction on seized Palestinian land.

The Israeli daily newspaper Maariv revealed that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon recently authorised the Defence Ministry to build 800 houses on West Bank land annexed to the settlements of Maale Adumim, to the east of Jerusalem, and Ariel, to the north.

The paper reported that the new projects are part of even broader master plans to insert thousands of Jewish homes into the West Bank, despite Israel's promise to freeze construction under last year's "road map" for peace.

Hamlet..didn't u hear....the 'roadmap' is dead.

I support the ethnic clarification of the whole area, and the re-shaping of the area demographically, even as a Christian.

I also support in principle the efforts of the Serbs to re-patriate Kosovo Albanians to Albania and Robert Mugabe addressing the crimes against humanity by British Colonists who took 90% of the best land and left the 90% of the black population to the scabbiest 10% of the land. I don't support his or the Serbs brutality/methods though.

I would support in principle the right of Aboriginal Australians to boot us out and for the British crown to foot the bill for our relocation. But would we let that happen ? If not, how would we stop it ? If we left, would some other power fill the vacuum ?

Clearly, when we start thinking about 'principles of justice' it gets messy and the point where we stop would have to go back to Cain killing Abel...

So, to what do we look for solutions to human conflict ?

Well ultimately it is the kingdom of God where there is neither Jew nor Greek, Slave nor free. But this is not something we can 'impose' with military or political force. So, for the most part, the world operates on the principle of 'might' ..not 'might is right' but that 'might decides'.

Looking to the UN for just solutions is futile. The only effective UN at the moment is the united Bush/Blair coalition and if you think about it, they are the two major powers which saw victory in Europe during WWII.
The Russians are the others who should join with them. A trinity of benevolant force ? :) Yikes.. if the yanks had their way we would see evergreening of pharmeceutical patents and be paying 3 times as much for a script....

But there is an alternative......

5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.Romans 5:5

In another OLO forum http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4731
wobbles noted that "nobody in our media seemed to notice that the new Ceyhan-Tblisi-Baku (BTC) oil pipeline opened just as the hostilities began - taking oil from the Caspian to the Mediterranean. There's a second pipe that will carry much-needed water to Israel from Turkey."

I knew nothing about it but then I am not surprised because I figure that our news is heavily edited.

I recomend that others check out the link provided by wobbles.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060726&articleId=2824

It certainly makes for interesting reading.

• Col Rouge ..."Leo Braun, I am not sure where you are coming from but can tell where you are going and the bleating self-righteousness is not the stuff which will resolve problems. You should really accept the facts of life as they are - Israel now exists"... Yeah, as a safe-haven enclave for organised-crime-syndicates and tax-dodging billionaire oligarchs. Welcomed as norm in the land of milk-n-honey, courtesy of psychopaths-junta-protectorate. Which won't extradite them (whilst no Palestinian to have any right of return). As an-utterly debauched society of the entirely brainwashed zealots plunged in a freefall paradigm.

While dragging along into oblivion umbilical-cord-attached USA, revered in Israel for $3 billion drip-fed economy in shackles. Yeah, Israelis are a very grateful bunch for uncle Sam invoked UN vetoes each-time in succession. Not mentioning their gratitude for charismatic Zhyd Billy, who pardoned Marc Rich (not-before having unzipped genitalia for Mossad's Monica). No wonder criminal Jews constituted 0.5% of the US prison-population, versus 25% of the convicted criminals whose sentences were commuted.

Tough-luck for the life-sentenced ordinary Russian people! Depleted of basic means-of-existence, thanks to elders-of-zion practiced predatory privatisation. As cold-blooded movers-n-shakers sucked the life out of the societies in which they live-in-Galuth. While indulging in jewvoracious opulence, sustained via money-laundering on a global scale. Courtesy of Israeli banking system with the unique expertise at hiding-assets-offshore (in a way that they could-not-be-traced).

Being on Interpol's ten-most-wanted list, didn't keep Marc Rich from continuing to-enrich himself in the "neutral" Switzer-Land, to the tune of hundreds-of-millions of dollars a year. As he shuttled regularly to Israelis safe-haven for villains. Where as a token of appreciation, reportedly he has given $200 million to Israeli junta (during the time he has been-on-the-run). Whilst the long promised land of milk-n-honey evolved into-a-hotbed of corruption, unparalleled in the history of the modern nation-states.

Notorious as-a-centre for slave-trade, drugs and prostitution, investment-chicanery, banking rip-offs and money-laundering, not mentioning blood-diamonds-trade. Coexistent via strong ties with Russian-Jew-Mafia, whose oligarch-affiliates take advantage of the Israel's sly-crafted Law-of-Return. Utilised "to-convert" expeditiously Russian-Jew-mobsters, to-Judaism!

For collaborative exposé proceed to ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4632#48587

Protocols of Zion an interesting read Eva Braun? I know life is hard, but you're not going to make it easier for yourself inspiring hate. It will consume you.

Are you able to include this in your paranoid scheme of things?

At least 171 Jews and persons of half-Jewish ancestry have been awarded the Nobel Prize,1 accounting for 23% of all individual recipients worldwide between 1901 and 2005,

Jews currently make up approximately 0.25% of the world's population

http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html

A nice little visual at this site http://www.aviransplace.com/index.php/archives/2006/05/03/israeli-hackers-hacked-iranian-government-sites/
to put things in perspective for you Eva Braun.

“Unlike Islam’s Koran, which commands Muslims to force the entire planet to submit to literal control by Islam, the Jewish Torah promises the children of Israel a modest and reasonable allotment of land. Israel in RED , is a democratic nation 1/19th the size of California, surrounded by 22 hostile Arab/Islamic dictatorships with 640 times her size, 60 times her population and ALL the oil. How dare Arab propagandists call Israel “expansionist!” And how dare anyone believe them! How can Israel, which occupies one-sixth of one percent of the lands called Arab, be responsible for the political dissatisfaction of 22 Arab countries? How can the 13 million Jews in the world (almost 5 million fewer than they were in 1939!) be blamed for the problems of the 300 million Arabs, who have brotherly ties to 1.4 billion Muslims worldwide?”

http://www.memritv.org/

And you're joining the Mohammedans in this Eva?

Its just sick

First, Leo Braun - thanks for your creative ideas on how to make money and gain power. My real name is Ron Hubbard (hehehe the world believes I'm dead, but I discovered immortality which I'll bestow on anyone in our galaxy who pays me the weight of planet earth in gold), I happen to own a secret motorcycle gang, The Elders of Andromeda, we plan to take over the universe, and since your ideas surpass even mine, we could certainly use your services as our spiritual advisor.

Aka,

One very important factor for the start of hostilities that you forgot to mention, is the conjunction of Jupiter and Mercury in the 7th house.

Hamlet (at least someone is serious):

If what you write is true, then it is sad indeed.
However, the report you rely on is from 2004!

Ariel Sharon is no longer prime-minister (he had a severe brain-stroke and lies in coma for months while the settlers believe it is due to the voodo-like curse they placed on him after he changed his policies and turned against them) and the current government of Israel was recently elected on the agenda of eliminating settlements in the West Bank - not the contrary.

For a moment I was startled: is the battle in Lebanon so heavy that the government of Israel is afraid to confront the settlers on a 3rd front and therefore tries to appease them and gain their support for the war on Hezbullah...? Fortunately I saw the date.

Israel still wants to incorporate the Samaria and Judea into Israel: recent reports:

From a CIA site, updated 20 July 2006

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/we.html

there are 242 West Bank settlements and 29 East Jerusalem settlements in addition to at least 20 occupied outposts (August 2005 est.)

From USA Today - 21 May 2006

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-05-21-israel-settlements_x.htm

"BEITAR ILLIT, West Bank (AP) — Officials said Sunday that Israel has approved plans to expand four Jewish settlements in the West Bank, a practice the United States has opposed in the past.
The settlements slated for expansion lie within areas that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert hopes to incorporate within Israel's final borders. The United States, which opposes settlement activity in the West Bank, has not endorsed Olmert's plan.

News of the settlement expansions came shortly before Olmert was scheduled to leave for Washington for talks with President Bush."

From last year:

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/isrlpa12224.htm

"Instead, the current wall will bring over three hundred thousand West Bank and East Jerusalem settlers and a minimum of 135,000 acres of West Bank territory over to the Israeli side. Despite Israel’s contention that the wall is a “temporary” security measure, it captures settlements that Israel has vowed to hold onto permanently. On July 21 Sharon said that the Ariel bloc of settlements “will be part of the State of Israel forever.” "

3 June 2006

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/272651_mideast03.html

"MASKIOT, West Bank -- Israel has begun laying the foundations for a new Jewish settlement deep in the West Bank -- breaking a promise to Washington while strengthening its hold on a stretch of desert it wants to keep as it draws its final borders."

Hamlet, the number of times Lebanon has been invaded by Israel have been matched by the number of times Israel has withdrawn with some form of peace agreement in place which most recently was torn up by Hezbollah, as the government and security forces of the country which hosts them, Lebanon, has stood by.

When a country is providing land from which others attack Israel, there is no fence to sit upon. The sooner Lebanon terminates Hezbollah’s military rights the sooner Israel will stop their defensive actions.

As for the rest – Why should Israel relinquish strategic high country from which they would be an easier target for Hezbollah and why should Palestinians think that they can attempt a war of attrition without some real estate being surrendered when their terror fails?

Leo Braun – What ever you are using to enhance your inferiority complex sure is working – was anyone in your maternal lineage frightened by someone with a beard once?

Your capacity for over-the-top-unsubstantiated-derogatory generalisations and vilifications qualifies your comments as puerile, asinine and not worthy of further comment.

As for the Russian People – Sorry, Sap, that was down to the Czar’s Secret Police followed by Lenin and Stalin etc. I realise the fantasy suits your theme but those with IQs of under 70 are easily duped.

Martin Ibn Warriq (Re Leo Braun) “Its just sick” - that about sums it up Martin, the difference between Leo and Us, we respect Leo's Right to Express his venom (and publicly display the severe limits of his reason). He, on the other hand would have us all executed for daring to counter his myopic hysteria. That is the inherent weakness of his "type".

Col Rouge:

"Israel has withdrawn with some form of peace agreement in place...torn up by Hezbollah"?

"Withdrawn"? Fascinating! And here's me thinking Hezbollah gave your heroes the boot in 2000. Please elaborate on "some form of peace agreement" and explain why your heroes saw fit to violate Lebanese airspace on an almost daily basis from 2000-2006.

"Palestinian war of attrition"? Mere retaliatory pinpricks against a bully.

How would you describe Israel's ongoing slaughter in Gaza? 30 Palestinians shredded in 3 days (Sat-Mon, 29-31/7) Oh, I know - self-defence!

Stewth,

You are right, Israel was booted in 2000 by the Hezbullah's ultimate weapon - babies!

Shooting from behind the backs of civilians, using them as human shields, Israel was paralized and defeated. Israel could easily prevail on the battlefield, but as a democratic state, it could not withstand the barrage of accusations by the international community and the UN that did not allow her to fight effectively and eradicate the Hezbullah, so with the hands of its army tied, it had to withdraw without achieving its goal of "peace to the Galilee".

Why Israel had to violate the Lebanese air-space? obviously in order to spot and track the movements of the 13,000 missiles set-up against her civilians from Lebanon.

"Mere retaliatory pinpricks" - fortunately so because Israel is alert and knows how to defend itself, by land, sea and air, and with the new defensive wall. Otherwise, not a single Israeli soul would be spared (including babies).

Yes, self defence: this is what Israel is doing since its inception and before. I am familiar with your view that a Jewish state, as opposed to the multi-cultural state you would prefer, is not worthy of defending, but unfortunately for you, 90% of the Israelis are not willing to die and would do whatever it takes to survive as a Jewish state: some because they really value their religion and culture, but even those who are not extremely Jewish and lead a more-or-less western lifestyle (and others, a Russian lifestyle), are not stupid and understand that life in Israel would be impossible and that they would have no chance to maintain their lifestyle under Arab/Moslem rule.

Sorry for the deaths of innocents among those who are not so innocent, but had your Palestinians be primarily interested in their own good instead of Jihad against the Jews, they could have been living in prosperity in their own state with their prisoners and so many other goodies, many years ago.

• Yuyutsu ..."First, Leo Braun, thanks for your-creative-ideas on-how to-make money and gain-power"... In reflection on the Zion-Nazi pact of Ha'avara (Transfer), which-grew to-become banking-trading-house with 137 specialists in Jerusalem's office. Courtesy-of-which, affluent German-Jews routed their-loot via Zionist-Bank inside Germany. Where such-funds were used-to-buy and export German commodities, that were sold by Zionist movers-n-shakers worldwide, contrary global-boycott against the Nazism (due-to-fascist-crimes perpetration against-the-ordinary Jews). At the time when supremacist Zionist sought to-uproot young-and-strong assimilated Jew-lesser brethren from their cultural-home to Palestine (except-those chosen-to-ghetto instead).

Mind you that destitute-Jew-lesser brethren lacked essential funds to-pay for the visa-and-voyage, to-escape Germany. Whilst the opulent-Jew-émigrés arrived in Palestine received-payment for the goods-sold. Fiscal-Jew-ingenuity extended Ha'avara's operations in-many directions as-an-attraction for wealthy German Jews. For whom-it-was the least-painful way-of-shipping extorted-wealth out-of-Germany. The controversy over the Zion-Nazi pact continued angrily to-be debated unti1 1935.

In terms of the overall German-Jewry's massive-wealth-transfer, Ha'avara Bank by no-means was decisive, yet most-crucial to-the-success of Zionism, as 60% of all the capital invested in Palestine during Aug-1933 to Sept-1939 period, derived-via-fruitful collaboration with the Nazis. At the time when British caused a "problem" with the annual-Jew-immigrant quota, using-weak economic-absorptive-capacity of the Zionist enclave, to-limit destitute-immigrants-number. Whilst capitalist-Jews, bringing-in over £1,000 were welcomed over-the-quota.

As-a-result 16,529 capitalists provided kosher-immigrants-source along with the economic-harvest-for-Zionism. As the capital-infusion generated-boom! Giving Zionist enclave an-artificial prosperity in-the-midst of the worldwide Depression. At first WZO tried to-defend-itself against the charges of boycott-scabbing and outright Nazi collaboration, by insisting that the Ha'avara-Bank transfers didn't break the boycott. Since Germany didn't receive foreign-currency for-its commodities (purchased-inside the country for marks).

However Nazi-Reich evidently received part-payment for some-produce in-foreign-currency. Obliged WZO even-solicited foreign-currency-customers in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq. While Zionists began-exporting-oranges to Belgium and Holland, using Nazi ships under the swastika flag. By 1936 (INTRIA BANK) International Trade and Investment Agency was set-up in London, facilitating WZO trade in Hitler's goods-in-Britain. Needless-to-add that WZO wasn't ever-to-fight its partners in Nazi uniforms. Every-defence of the Ha'avara monstrosity demonstrates moreover that loud-n-clear (not to the vision impaired dill-block).

For an eye opener proceed to ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4632#46251

• Col Rouge ..."I realise the fantasy suits your theme but those with IQs of under 70 are easily duped"... Of course when having lying-rodent set AWB modus-operandi in reflection on the invincible WZO trading with the enemy. Where as a token of appreciation Jew Dr Goebbels ordered a medallion to-be struck with the Nazi Swastika on-one-side, and the Zionist Star-of-David on the other. Wouldn't you agree, a very significant gesture for predominantly Jew elite officers cadre within the exclusive Nazi hierarchy. Who outperformed each other towards the final solution, according to the Zionist recipe of the brutal coercion against the obstinate (to-their-roots), Jew-lesser brethren of Europe (whose youngsters were prime-candidates for Palestine deportation).

Yet adamant Zionists with a straight chutzpah-face still dare to-argue that it was the Nazis who were the prime gainers from Ha'avara. Not only did-it-help them push out a few more of the wealthy Jews, but it was of immense propaganda value abroad, providing perfect rationale for all those who still wanted to continue trading with the Nazis. In Britain, Sir Oswald Mosley's newspaper, the Blackshirt, loved it ..."Can you beat that! We are cutting off our nose to spite our face and refuse to trade with Germany in order to-defend the poor Jews. When these Jews themselves, in their own country, are to continue making profitable dealings with Germany. Fascists can't any better counter the allegations, purported to destroy friendly relations with Germany, than by using this fact".

In-conclusion of my research I must disagree with the postulate that-a-final evaluation of the connived WZO's role cannot-be-concluded fairly until all the interrelationships between the Zion-Nazi partners are properly dealt-with. When so copious amount-of-facts addressed already these issues. All excuses that Ha'avara saved lives must-be strictly-excluded from serious consideration. As no-one in the 1930s thought that Hitler was going to-try to-exterminate the Jews of Germany or Europe, and no-one-tried to-justify Ha'avara in those terms. Excuse was, that it saved lives, when-in-fact at the very-best, it helped-few-thousand wealthy-Jews to-enter Palestine. Subject to-strict criteria, purported to-boost Zionist economy by keeping destituted out.

For collaborative exposé proceed to ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4632#48915

Strewth: Hezbollah are a terrorist organisation which is committed to the denial of democracy and the imposition of its own selfish ends by violent and terrorising means (just like the IRA).

Just as Yuyutsu observed, Hezbollah used babies as human shields. It shows the world exactly what sort of loathsome and heinous subhuman scum they are.
That you choose to empathise with them obviously reflects, in a negative manner, on you - “birds of a feather flock together” etc.

The Hezbollah are a secret organisation which uses intimidation and menaces to enforce their will upon women and children. Doubtless there are a lot of Lebanese who support the Israeli efforts to eradicate this virulent infection from their land – there were plenty of Lebanese who supported the departure of Hezbollahs Masters, the Syrian occupation forces, last year and doubtless, Syria is still looking to ferment unrest and re-establish its jack-boot authority over its smaller neighbour (not all Lebanese are “Muslim” and not all Lebanese are Hezbollah supporters).

As for the Palestinians, they have, consistently, failed to acknowledge or exercise what peaceful options have been offered them. They have consistently broken their word and avoided commitment at every opportunity. Eventually they will become extinct through their own incompetence.

Leo Braun I previously stated “Your capacity for over-the-top-unsubstantiated-derogatory generalisations and vilifications qualifies your comments as puerile, asinine and not worthy of further comment.”

Nothing else need be said

HEZBOLLAH might be the 'marionette' but IRAN is pulling the strings.

I am insulted when newscasts refer to the 'good social and educational work' done by Hezbollah, simply because they cannot do these things without FUNDING, and funding cannot arise for widespread social programs when they are themselves the 'POOREST' segment of Lebanese society.

FURTHER if they could find the money to run such health and educational and poverty alleviation programs from the poorest of the poor, it does NOT explain where they find the funding for THIRTEEN THOUSAND OFFENSIVE missiles not to mention the MOST SOPHISTICATED anti tank defensive missiles that they are using.

What all this DOES tell us, is that there are 'OUTSIDERS' manipulating, using and abusing these poor Shiites for their own strategic advantage !

Now, I can hear the cry already "But the US backs and supplies Israel"

Points.

1/ Israel DID withdraw (yes, Strewth, they 'withdrew' they were not defeated unless you say that a Knesset decision was a defeat.. ok, if it floats ur boat, well and good) from both South Lebanon and Gaza.

2/ Missiles have OFFENSIVE orientation.

3/ Hezbollah and Hamas and IRAN and Syria are by nature and definition OUR ENEMIES. It does not matter squat whether we try to call them "terrorists" and in fact it is even WRONG to call them that.

They are simply our 'enemies' who are hell bent on ruling us. As such they must be destroyed or ruled, one or the other. There can be no half measures. (speaking purely in a human manner)

Todays "Enemy" is tomorrows RULER unless you act first and firmly.

P.S. The Tribal allotment by Divine Mandate for Israel INCLUDES much of South Lebanon, (Sidon and Tyre) plus Jordan and slabs of Syria.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/1759_map_Holy_Land_and_12_Tribes.jpg
Be thankful they have self-restraint.

Just what wild wackyweed have you been chewing on BOAZ_David ....??

Tribal allotment by divine mandate..... WHOSE divine being made this damned allotment and where was it recorded? .... Just WHO has recorded this amazing land grab ... and of course WHERE is it recorded?

Prithy tell now David, surely you are not going to rely on the old testiment now are you? Was that written by some divine (sic) being who gave all the land to the Jews? ... or was it written by the Jews themselves?

And now they are showing such magnificent restraint .... I would hate to see the world if they were actually in a tizz now, so please excuse me if I have a small chuckle of hollow mirth

Kekenidika “Was that written by some divine (sic) being who gave all the land to the Jews”

Oh what a fool to present such an idiotic question.

Answer Oh course not, “keke”.

Just as no one wrote that Hezbollah would fire rockets into Israel without inciting a response and a bunch of Shiite Muslims (why do they add the extra “i” – it does not distinguish them from their source) would destroy the peace and tranquillity of the industrious Christian Lebanese?

Likewise Palestinians, who have turned their back on every opportunity for peace, simply behave like a bunch of doubly incontinent cot cases when Israel responds Hamas’ pathetic attempts at military force.

Someone needs to administer the Gaza strip and Lebanon, it is clear, those who inhabit that land have no idea how to do it for themselves, certainly not from the Muslims among them, at least

Hi Col, tao here (make that Tristan if you like)

I was wondering how you reconcile your belief - “FACT - Everything which I promote diametrically opposes the notions of Divine Right of Kings and stands squarely against all forms of religious or authoritarian social orders.” - with your support for the religious political and social order of Israel which claims its right to exist (and pulverize non-adherents) on the grounds of religion.

Just another inconsistency in your thought?

Oh tao / tristan, you have been quiet for some time, been off licking your wounds?

As for “inconsistency of thought” on my part regarding the Divine Right of Kings and

“religious political and social order of Israel which claims its right to exist (and pulverize non-adherents) on the grounds of religion.”

Unless I am mistaken, Hezbollah, as the sycophantic acolytes of the manevolent religious zealots from Iran and the corrupt and incompetent manipulators from Syria were the ones who decided to keep firing the rockets over Lebanon’s southern border. Now noting, Hezbollah, just like the IRA against Britain, are not appointed or authorised to pursue (with any national government authority) a war of attrition against Israel.

I see no problem with the democratically and duly elected government of Israel resorting to whatever measures it sees necessary to protect its citizens and to determine to retrieve its kidnapped soldiers from these despicable cowards of Hezbollah who hide behind women and babies.

Although, for what seems like empathy with said life scum bags comes, based on your other deluded views, as no surprise at all. As we saw in your purile article posted on this very site -

“Reality” seems always to challenge you just as “reason” eludes you Tao/Tristan, I can see you next proclaiming the virtues of Hamas, maybe claim they run hospitals etc -

well they need to, it is their actions, in sending their own rockets and bombers into Israel which result in more Palestinian death and injuries.

Have a nice day tao, bring on all your piffling drivel, it is easy to see you have no real sense or experience of the way the world is and thus rate as incapable of reasoned comment.

Tao,

There is a Jewish nation, which has its own culture, its own religion and its own state. The Jewish and Israeli culture have close connections with the Jewish religion, so even while 70% of Israelis do not believe in the Jewish religion as divinely-given, most of them still appreciate selected elements of the Jewish religion as their national heritage.

Although some individuals (mostly Jewish and Christian) privately do, Israel as a state does not base its right to exist on religion.

Some Israeli leaders, notably Ben Gurion (Israel's first prime-minister) did rely on the bible - but as a historical-national document rather than a religious item. Israel's declaration of independence, http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/israel.htm does not even mention the words "God" or "divine", but does mention the bible ("Book of Books") as a cultural gift to the world, and its prophets as humanistic models. The punch-line of Israel's declaration of independence is:
"This right is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations, in their own sovereign State."

Anyway, why should a nation need to justify its right to exist in the first place? and then why the need for religious justifications, as if ordinary common-sense reasons are insufficient? does Australia for example have a religious basis that allows it to survive and allows its citizens to continue living in freedom and not under a dark Islamic regime that executes "unmodest" girls?

Part One. You Suckers!
We are Israel. We are untouchable. No matter what we do the international community will not act against us. Oh, there will be talks at the United Nations but we know that the United States will intervene on our behalf. There will be Arab League discussions but we know that no state will take action against us. There will be mass protests and demonstrations; there will be activists and advocates begging for peace; there will be rallies and fundraisers to help the targets of our bombs. And we know that nothing will make a difference because we are Jews - we are victims of the Holocaust. We have suffered such that we have the right to make the rest of the world pay (even though organised Zionism officially declared war on Germany in 1933, long before Hitler's Final Solution). Because we are victims.
Yes, we know that peoples all over the world have suffered worse crimes than ours, but they were not the Chosen People. We know that over 22 million Russians were killed under Stalin, 15 million Chinese killed by the Japanese, millions elsewhere in the world who suffer the same fate in the bloodiest 20th century. We know that Zionism is an atheist Marxist creation using Judaism as its weapon; that we were founded upon terrorism and our leaders became Israel's prime ministers and Nobel Peace Prize winners; that less than 10% of Jews worldwide supported the Zionist cause for decades until WWII. We know that the crimes committed by Hitler equally affected Communists, gypsies, the handicapped, and political prisoners.

That does not matter - we are special. The rest of the world will not touch us because they are terrified of the label "anti-Semite". World leaders: terrified of this most glorious ad hominem even though we are mostly not Semitic peoples. Jews of Israel, the Sephardim Jews, were almost non existent when we arrived from Russia, Poland, Austria-Hungary and elsewhere in the 20th century and demanded Arab land.
http://www.rense.com/general73/sunto.htm

Part Two. You Suckers!

We did not come from Yemen, Ethiopia or Iraq, but who cares? We are the victims and that is all that counts.
Time and again we wonder at how far American gullibility will take us. We push it to the limits on cable television and get away with it repeatedly. We know that the majority of the world is aware we blatantly lie when we express our "deepest regrets" because "terrorists" were hiding in the villages we destroy. We even have the gall to pick the precise same targets as a decade ago, ignoring the cries of outrage from America and the West. We'll just repeat the mantra "a tragic mistake".
Honestly, we, too, are rather surprised to see that America patiently sits back and buys our words each time. We have trained our diplomats well, not only in the art of deception to the media, but by using powerful strong arm behind the scenes tactics to mould the views of US Congressmen and women in our favour. We have worked on this for decades and it has been perfected for the one place it counts: our bank America. We rely upon those weapons; we need to create constant conflict so as to receive a perpetual $13 billion annual aid package from the US, including unsecured loans that we have never been, nor ever will be, required to pay back. We are living a dream: what we want is given to us on a silver patter because we are Jews, and we have the Holocaust.
The above is only daring in that it is never voiced publicly in the West. The world is watching as Israel incinerates the Lebanese, next the Syrians and Palestinians, then Iran. Diplomats call for peace, a cease -fire, and negotiations. They speak the language of non committance. It takes a few brave men and women in leadership positions to dare to speak the truth; losing that AIPAC support in government is the kiss of death, and academics who dare write the facts know that their tenured careers are over.
http://www.rense.com/general73/sunto.htm

Dear Yuyutsu

I found one of your comments interesting, when you referred to Ben Gurion taking the Prophets as 'humanistic models'.

I just wish to make the point, that apart from the Decalogue (10 Commandments) and Covenant relationship between G-D and Israel, the words of the prophets are meaningless.

The natural tendency of Israel, as for all of us, was to gravitate towards the golden calf and Baal and Ashteroth and the associated debauchery, "Lets Party" is the normal inclination of unrestrained humans.

The promised land, was nothing more than a bit of geography whereby G-D sought to convey the message of universal salvation to the world through the Israelites. Ultimately, that message was presented though our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom the Old Testament ceremonial and sacrificial system pointed forward to.

But to the Jews of today, there can only ever be one reason for insisting on the validity of the Land as a place of nationhood, and that can only be in terms of their original calling by G-D.

Clearly, by your own statistics, 70% of them don't see it this way.
But this does not alter the validity of the reason I have outlined.
Of course, that reasoning can only apply to non Christian Jews.
If they accepted Christ as their Messiah, they would no longer need the land, because the 'true' Israel is the body of Christ (including people of Jewish ancestry who believe the Gospel)- The Church.

So, Ben Gurion may have found it more palatable to the world to express his nationalism in 'humanistic models' re the prophets, but he is simply Biblically incorrect in viewing them that way.

Humanism must always be subject to divine revelation, because without that, Humanism will simply develop the shape with the strongest human.

Good news!

Almost two thirds of hospitals in Lebanon could "cease to function" due to fuel shortages, the World Health Organization warns.

Full story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5255996.stm

The UN calls off the day's attempt to get aid to south Lebanon, as Israel imposes a curfew on southern residents.

Full story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5256674.stm

Lebanon's coast could take up to 10 years to recover from a massive oil slick, the nation's environment minister says.

Full story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/-/2/hi/science/nature/5255966.stm

War is always justifiable.

Isn't it Col Rouge, BD, Yuyutsu, Martin Ibn Warriq? You must be feeling very morally superior today - right wing AND christian - superior beings all. Who was it who said "suffer the little children"? Well, they are suffering - no doubt about that. But that's all right because Israel must defend itself at ALL costs.

Peace, anyone?

Dear Boaz,

Thank you for your point of view.

Most Israelis revere the bible and know it well, not as a divine document, but rather as their beloved cultural heritage. Unfortunately, Israel also has a fanatic Jewish minority (followers of the late Rabbi Kook and American Rabbi Kahane) that abuse and interpret the bible as if they can force the Messiah to come by harassing their Arab neighbours in the West Bank. They are a shame, giving bad reputation and trouble to Israel, therefore I rather not discuss religion here.

But Truth is the same no matter from which angle you view it.

I find it important to point out the right of Israel to exist in plain terms that everyone should agree - no matter what their religious beliefs are. Regardless of what God did or did-not promise, it is common sense that Jews have the right to live and pursue their national religion and culture in Israel just as Norwegians are allowed to do so in Norway. Did Norway require an explicit divine charter to exist?

Scout:

"Almost two thirds of hospitals in Lebanon could "cease to function""
- why then did they send a Raad missile totally destroying the top floor of the Nahariya hospital, wiping out the optical ward?

"Lebanon's coast could take up to 10 years to recover from a massive oil slick"
- why then did they their rockets set up fires in northern Israel that burned half a million trees that will take 60 years to grow again?

"The UN calls off the day's attempt to get aid to south Lebanon"
- why then are a million residents of northern Israel forced to stay in shelters or flee their homes?

Disproportionate?

- fortunately so! had Hezbullah succeeded doing what they want, would they leave any hospital in Israel operating, or any patient or doctor alive?

Listen to Ahmadenijad's statements: Iran's purpose is to destroy the infidels, starting with Israel. Hezbullah are their proxy whose fighters received training in Iran.

Yes, Israel is to blame for not turning the other cheek.

Disproportionate?

Absolutely!

Hezbollah – guerrilla army

Israel – highly funded, highly trained and well supplied with high tech weaponry.

Just to state the obvious.

Now, as a little hypothetical, lets change the headlines I posted above to read:

"Almost two thirds of hospitals in ISRAEL could "cease to function"
"ISRAEL’S coast could take up to 10 years to recover from a massive oil slick"
“"The UN calls off the day's attempt to get aid to ISRAEL"

Imagine (if you have any ability) the outcry from Washington if Israel were to be hit as hard as Lebanon has been?

Now. Let me make myself QUITE CLEAR.

I AM NOT A SUPPORTER OF HEZBOLLAH, nor Syria’s and Iran’s intervention.

However, I AM intelligent enough to realise when tit for tat retaliation is SIMPLY NOT WORKING.

Those who are in favour on continued retaliation have no compassion and are warmongers.

Apart from BD (who thinks that peace will come about if Israel is granted everything it wants) not one of those in support of Israel’s excessive force have attempted to propose or support a peace solution.

Peace will not occur with the present tactics.

I have suggested forcing ALL political leaders in the ME to the negotiation table as only talk and compromise will put an end to this senseless violence.

It is never going to be easy, but continued war isn’t achieving anything.

I agree with you Scout.
We need to arm everyone up to the teeth with nuclear weapons so we can end the war.
We could make a handy little profit as we have the uranium.
Kim Beazley would be in agreement with John as well.
Kim could help john in the end.

Scout “War is always justifiable.”

Well a little bit of emotional hyperbole there Scout.

So Scout, tell me, knowing Hezbollah are firing rockets on you and wish to see you and all your kinsmen and kinswomen extinct and driven into the sea, should the Jews of Israel

1: Walk into the Hezbollah bombs and bullets like they did for the gas chambers for the Nazis?

or

2 Decide to make a stand and fight (“war” in your words)?

If your answer is not 2 then why not?

As I have said before, If I were an Israeli soldier, defending my country against a virulent and treacherous enemy, who was not prepared to negotiate a peace which they would honour, I would expect my country to do everything possible to make my life matter, “disproportionately” or not.

The more I see it written, “disproportionate” seems to be just some political weasel word used to describe what someone actually agrees with but needs to appear as politically distant from – typical “double talk”.

I have no such reservations with “terminology”.
Israel is exercising its sovereign right to defeat a cowardly terrorist enemy, known to hide behind human shields of women and babies, which has no mandate or authority to wage the war which it initiated.

When someone can “justify” Hezbollah’s “aggression”, acts of terror, bombing of civilians and firing of explosive rockets indiscriminately into Israel, then and only then you are entitled to try to criticise the actions of a democratically elected government engaged in doing what it needs to do to defend its own population, where "disproportion" has no place in actions of defense.

Scout,

This is not "tit for tat" or retaliation - it is a war to the bitter end: one side will live, the other will die.

What proved to not be working is Israel's previous policy of appeasement, ignoring routine skirmishes for 6 years, closing its eyes on what goes on over its northern border, pretending that UNIFIL did anything but play cards all day.

With Palestinians there is still hope for talks and compromize (although so far they failed to accept any offer to improve their situation), because some of them still want a better life, but what can you talk about with an organization that cares about nothing but your total destruction?

Yes, Israel is currently highly funded, highly trained and well supplied, and has the USA on its side, but it was not always the case. Israel faced a similar situation in 1948 when it had neither of the above - and won. The only difference is in the number of casualties, and because of being well supplied, Israel can afford to take the time to use safer tactics.

This is why the war takes long and seems to not be working, but in fact Hezbullah is at the end of its rope. Tonight, Israel captured several Hezbullah fighters without battle - they were sleeping on guard and reported that they were very tired and hungry. Soon their supplies will end and with it their ability to continue fighting.

Also tonight, Israeli soldiers helped a group of elderly civilians whom they found deserted in a south-west Lebanese village, giving them food, water and medicines. After this war, once Hezbullah is gone, Israel will prove to be Lebanon's best friend. In fact, Israel winning this war will also strengthen the moderates among Palestinians against the extreme Islamists that are currently in power and will allow for a historic compromize and enduring peace in the region. Once Israel is no longer threatened, the Palestinians will also have their land, their state, prisoners, refugees, etc. Israel is not interested in all that - only to survive, and survive it will.

Scout,

You say that all ME political leaders should be forced to the negotiating table.

Who will force them?

Yuyutsu,

My question was really directed towards Col who professes to stand opposed to all religious social orders, but sees nothing to oppose in a state based on religion i.e. Israel. And his response really failed to address my question, but that is nothing unusual.

If you don’t believe that Israel bases its right to exist on religion, then what gave Israel the right to declare itself a “Jewish State”?

What makes a person Jewish? Is it adherence to a religious faith, or being a certain ethnic type? What does it mean to be part of the Jewish nation?

Are suggesting that Israel is secular? Given that being a secular state means that religion is made a private matter for individuals, can a state where it is not legal for non-Jews to marry Jews be secular?

You say the bible was used as a “historical-national” document. What does this mean? Is the bible an accurate historical document? Who wrote it? Why did they write it?

You ask “why should a nation need to justify its right to exist in the first place?”- If we took away all the justifications used to create the state of Israel, would it now exist?

All “nations” do justify their existence – they make constitutions and declarations etc. They haven’t just existed for all time. In fact we should all be examining the phenomenon of nation states, how they have developed, what they actually represent, and the role they have played and continue to play – whether any of them are relevant in a world of globalised production.

Tao

We bring them to the negotiation table by trade sanctions - it will require a unified effort from all the world powers. However, that said, I don't believe it will happen.

No-one cares enough to swallow their pride and compromise for peace. Just look at the responses from many of the posters here. They claim that Israel must defend itself at all costs, blithely ignoring the fact that Israel has been doing this since its inception and nothing has changed.

Meanwhile innocents are still being murdered - there is no 'good' side or 'bad' side - all are equally culpable. If the leaders in the ME really gave a toss about their citizens we would have had peace along time ago - it is about power in the form of energy, politics and religion; there is no room for humanity.

Tao, truly important and interesting questions:

Technically, Israel got the right to declare itself a Jewish State by UN resolution 181, and a Jew is anyone born to a Jewish mother or has converted to Judaism. For being a Jew, there is no requirement to believe or practice anything (in other words, you can be a Jew without being Jewish!). Israel's right to exist is officially justified by its declaration of independence: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/israel.htm .

Life is bigger than theory and modern Israel is now a thriving nation in its own right. It is essentially a secular country (with a few hickups) and nobody there is asked to follow any religion.

Silly indeed that Israel does not provide civil-marriages. One consequence (among others) is that couples of mixed religions cannot marry in Israel, but they simply marry elsewhere (usually Cyprus), and Israel recognizes those marriages.

To really understand Israel and its relevance, you need to think not in terms of RELIGION, but in terms of CULTURE.

Jews are a nation, and the Jewish culture includes the bible and other writings; a history; legends; folklore; art; music; the Hebrew language; the Hebrew calendar; the Jewish Sabbath; the Jewish holidays; an affinity to the land of Israel; and also the Jewish religion: it is a personal choice - some actually follow Judaism as a religion, some follow it partially, while others only refer to it, just as you would refer to Christmas whether or not you actually believe that Jesus was born on December 25th.

While the bible is very important to the Jewish culture, and is thoroughly studied and quoted, you will find in Israel as many opinions about it as the number of Jews.

Israel is the place where Jews can live by their culture, where for example, Hebrew is the official language; the Sabbath, Friday-evening to Saturday-night is the official day of rest; the public holidays are the Jewish holidays; the Hebrew date is listed along the Gregorian; schools teach Jewish heritage; and the state makes it convenient for those wishing to follow the Jewish religion to do so.

“UN attacks Lebanon aid 'disgrace'

The UN's top humanitarian official has criticised Israel and Hezbollah for hindering access to southern Lebanon, calling the situation a "disgrace".

Jan Egeland said both sides could give aid agencies access in a "heartbeat". Hospitals in south Lebanon are also said to be low on food and fuel.

The warning came amid more violence across the Israel-Lebanon border.
Two Israeli Arabs were killed in Hezbollah rocket fire, while Israeli air strikes killed two Lebanese.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4778591.stm

As I have said previously, neither side gives a toss about human lives – both Israel and Hezbollah deserve only condemnation and yet the world just sits and watches and does nothing.

There is no justification for terrorism, nor is there any justification for Israel's slaughter of innocent Lebanese. Hezbollah is laughing as Israel creates more enemies for itself, while the USA hopes that Israel will do some of its dirty work for it by eliminating another extreme Islam group AND NONE OF THEM ARE INTERESTED IN NEGOTIATING FOR PEACE!

There will not be an end to terrorism (such as the latest attempt in London) until peace is negotiated in the ME - the western interest in oil and power in the ME is seen as interference by many of the ME nations. In the face of global warming and depletion of oil reserves, it makes no sense for western powers to seek domination in the ME when they should be concentrating on renewable energy.

What a mess!

Tao / Tristan – “They (nation states) haven’t just existed for all time.”
Oh to agree for once.

Nations change and reform over the centuries. Thus, what Palestinians might claim as their “historic land” has no contemporary validity if Israel presently occupies it.

Ths whole point of moving forward is, we start from today and not some historic precept established centuries ago (it is just like the way the Irish / Celts who still have their knickers in a twist over the battle of the Boyne).

If we look at which nation states are functioning and which are not, Israel would be an outstanding example of success, Lebanon is a failed state, hence its inability to curb terrorists within its land and Palestine – a complete basket case of incompetence and corruption

However, “and the role they have played and continue to play – whether any of them are relevant in a world of globalised production”

I guess, democratically, each nation state has a right to determine its constitution etc.

That is not something to be imposed upon them. But each nation has responsibility to cohabit with its neighbours. I see no resistance by Israel to accommodate. I do see the elected political majority of Palestine, in Hamas, and the unelected minority in Lebanon, Hezbollah, both determined not to co-exist with Israel.

So before anyone suggests Israelis be held up for criticism, first apply it to “Palestinians” and the Muslim Lebanese who support the criminal organisation of Hezbollah.

Scout “We bring them to the negotiation table by trade sanctions - it will require a unified effort from all the world powers.

Southern Rhodesia, which after 15 years of trade sanctions was in better economic condition than after the subsequent 26 years with out trade sanctions, as Zimbabwe.

As for the unified efforts of the world powers – pure delusion, it will not happen whilst the UN security council exists and if the UN security council did not exist, then there would be no “forum” for world powers to “unify” in.

What matters is the side we are on "wins"

Thank you Col, you have never been more succinct nor more revealing about your true nature, when you stated:

>>What matters is the side we are on "wins"<<

Col Rouge you poor man, I am speechless, I can only quote Tenzin Gyatso:

"There can be no peace as long as there is grinding poverty, social injustice, inequality, oppression, environmental degradation, and as long as the weak and small continue to be trodden by the mighty and powerful."

Col, winning has nothing to do with peace.

Scout
"There will not be an end to terrorism (such as the latest attempt in London) until peace is negotiated in the ME"

Disagree-the root cause of such things has more to do with insular subcultures (or national cultures) which allow/peddle only one side of the story.

As you seemed to have acknowledged in a previous post, there are as many wrongs on one side as the other.Had I the will & the right cultural setting I could sift through all the wrongs done to Christians (&/or other minorities) under Islamic societies, both presently & in the past, and make a case for any number of terrorist attacks on Islamic figures.

Ah Col - the contradictions in your thinking abound!

“what Palestinians might claim as their “historic land” has no contemporary validity if Israel presently occupies it”

So by this logic, if Arabs/Muslims manage to drive Israel into the sea, then, in the future, the land on which Israel now exists and claims as “historic land” will have no “contemporary validity”, just as it had no “contemporary validity” at the time it was created.

It also follows that if Muslims do achieve their aim by means of terrorism, they, as Zionist terrorists before them, will be on the side which “wins”. What were once terrorists will be victors, to whom will go the spoils. I suppose you would change your allegiance then.

Ah “BUT” you say, “each nation has responsibility to cohabit with its neighbours”.

So even though, as you say, “nations change and reform over the centuries”, anyone who dares to challenge the “contemporary validity” of a current nation (which has been “imposed upon them”) must be heinous criminals or terrorists – but if they win we must accept it!

What wonderful convoluted logic.

Ah Tao, it is gratifying to see that you’re catching on…
With all the talk about the bad Zionists, people are missing half the story.

You see, there are Arab & Turkish equivalents to "Zionism".
Turks were not the original inhabitants of Turkey, nor more recently, Nth Cyprus.And they have since been doing their darnest to make it a Turks ONLY domain.
www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/051219ta_talk_pamuk

And the “Iraqi” Arabs stole (& are still currently stealing) land from the earlier Turkamen, Assyrians & Kurds, & are seeking to extinguish their identity.

And the “Egyptian” Arabs sidelined and out bred the original Coptic inhabitants of Egypt.

And Sudan, well, we all should know what’s happening there.

But I guess there are lots of brownie points to be gained from going with the flow and heaping scorn on the one Zionism we all know.

Horus

Why are you (like Col Rouge) so vehemently against working towards peaceful settlement.

Reading your posts, the only conclusion I can reach is that you will justify war and conflict in a vain effort to score your 'brownie points'.

If you wished to justify Israel's defence, then why didn't Israel attack Syria - after all it is Syria which has been supporting Hezbollah?. I don't really expect a cogent response from the likes of you. You are too eager to attack any who wish to look towards peace.

As with Col I suppose you just like to think you can win at all and any costs. Sad.

Scout, why didn't Israel attack Syria?

and why not Bolivia?

Neither Bolivia nor Syria attacked Israel.
Syria and Israel have a disengagement agreement since 1974, which is being strictly kept.

Israel does not attack anyone - Israel only defends itself.

and Israel did not attack Lebanon either - Israel only defends itself from Iranian terrorists which unfortunately hide behind Lebanese civilians and launch deadly missiles from their homes.

Besides, the main offender is Iran, not Syria, so a war on Syria means a direct war on Iran and I don't think Israel is able stop Iran on its own by conventional means.

Yuyutsu says....Scout, why didn't Israel attack Syria? .... and why not Bolivia?

Bolivia .... Where the hell is Bolivia in this war? Oh yes - they threw out Bechtell for screwing their water system up and charging spurious rates for doing what they usually do - bugger all except for graft and corruption!!

You really scrape the bottom of your barrel of Pathos there Yuyutsu - and you really should stop playing with yourself - or you will go blind my friend!!

The reason why the Jews will not attack Syria .. or Iran for that matter is because they are craven, gutless cowards - forever hiding behind the so called "holocaust" and garnering the enforced media orchestrated sympathy votes .......

It is in the same category as to why the yanks attacked Afghanistan because of their own orchestrated 9/11 attack - where the alleged pilots were either Saudi or Egyptian nationals - and like the craven Zionist Jews - they could not - and would not attack anyone who might possible fight back against them ... they learned that lesson when they licked their way out of a massive defeat in Vietnam and even after a massive blockade of Cuba - they are still gutless and afraid to attack there...

Real brave fighters..... Wonder if you want fries with that - or maybe several flavours of ice cream ........... ?

‘Sad’ Scout
I noticed you side stepped my point about the cause(s) of terrorism having more to do with the one-sided portrayal of events/history than the existence of "injustice". (Now with a side-step like that I bet you played rugby in your younger days.)

If you genuinely want peace, you could lay some sound foundations by breaking down the one-eyed, my side right all the time mindset of many of the middle eastern contenders ( & their fellow travelers in the west).

A genuinely self critical Arab/Iranian media & academia would be a great cornerstone.

I have no idea why Kekenidika so much hates the Syrian people.

There is a story:
An American, a British and an Israeli were captured by a cannibal tribe and were offered one last wish before being cooked. The American asked for and got a big steak. The British asked for and got his favourite beer. The Israeli asked for the biggest and toughest native to kick him strongly on his backside. He was asked again and again whether he's sure, but the Israeli insisted. When that native kicked him, he pulled out an Uzi and sparyed all the men of that tribe. The surprised American and British wondered: "if you had that Uzi, why did you not save us earlier", to which the Israeli replied: "I must not be seen as the unprovoked aggressor".

So Kekenidika, I understand your desire to see Syria wiped out, with its civilians killed so you can cry foul blaming Israel over them, but sorry, it is not going to happen because Israel never attacks unless provoked, and Israel keeps its agreements, and the Syrians, knowing this too well, will not provoke Israel either as they have not done in 32 years. Unlike Hezbullah, the Syrian regime and majority is secular, and prefer this earthly life over obtaining 72 virgins in heaven.

Do not attempt to draw hasty conclusions comparing the clumsy and unmotivated American army that fights offshore with Israel's best trained army that fights desparately defending its home.

Horus,

“But I guess there are lots of brownie points to be gained from going with the flow and heaping scorn on the one Zionism we all know.”

I’m not quite sure what you mean by this statement. Perhaps you’d like to point out where I have heaped scorn on Zionism.

Considering that I disagree with all forms of “national” chauvinism, extremism or racism, you’d be hard pressed to find where I have advocated any kind of Arab or Muslim chauvinism as preferable to Zionism.

Just because someone makes a comment about Zionism and defends the rights of Palestinians or Lebanese people against state violence does not mean they condone, or even ignore, Arab or Muslim chauvinism.

Considering that we are presented with a one-sided ahistorical view of the current conflict by the media, it is appropriate to make relevant points to counter that.

Would you prefer that people just shut up about the fact that Zionists used terrorism to achieve their aims, while allowing the world to scream from the rooftops about the evils of the “terrorists” Hezbollah/Hamas/Muslim/Arabs? Should we only be getting half the story? Is the whole truth unpalatable to you?

My questions to Col on this thread have merely been to highlight the inconsistencies in his thought, whereby he tows the simplistic right-wing line which casts one side as right and the other as wrong, one as good and the other as evil, one side justified in using terrorism and mass violence, the other unjustified. He claims to oppose religious social orders, but supports a “Jewish State”. It appears that the only principle he holds to is the one that he sees is most likely to fill his wallet.

Tao “if Arabs/Muslims manage to drive Israel into the sea, then, in the future, the land on which Israel now exists and claims as “historic land” will have no “contemporary validity””

Your assertion, that all the extinct Jews, having been pushed into the sea by Arabs, would no longer have a claim to land, would be true. Dead people are unable to exercise many rights of any sort, even one so obtuse as you should be able to grasp that.
Hence, my support for Israel to do whatever it needs to do in terms of its own self defence.

As for “wonderful convoluted logic.”

I suspect, a piece of string tied taught between two pins would represent a sequence too convoluted for your cognitive skills.

Scout, It is all too hard for you to grasp.

“Col, winning has nothing to do with peace.”

Peace is what is to be won. Winning has everything to do with Peace.

Part of Israel’s problem has been their support of UN resolutions.
Syrian Baathists and their secret police have been waging an unofficial war for decades, not only against Israel but also against Lebanon, hence the Syrian humiliation at being thrown out of Lebanon by the Lebanese people and their illegal and immoral support of the Hezbollah terrorists.

Supporting a cultural malignancy like Hezbollah is to determine that “peace” will never be achieved.

Supporting the democratic rights of Israel to peaceful co-existence (such as it enjoys with Egypt) is the ONLY hope for peace.

Winning it is the “why” for those who fight and support the Israeli effort.

Your comment “winning has nothing to do with peace” displays just how naive and simplistic your thought processes are and how ill –equipped you are to comment about matters which are, clearly, beyond your comprehension.

As for quoting Tenzin Gyatso – the oil wealth of the Muslim Arab states would be better deployed in supporting fellow Arabs with food parcels than buying them guns to shoot at Jews with. Offer your quotes to the Iranians before you suggest them for Israelis to ponder on.

Ahhh Yuyutsu … It looks like my advice is far too late – you are already in the advanced stages of dyslexia, which usually follows self appeasement … but just in the off chance you have renewed your ocular script and have obtained a stronger monocular – perhaps you could enlighten me where I have actually “hated” the Syrian people?

If as so many other people here say that Syria and Iran have been supplying arms and fighters to Lebanon, then why are the Jews not attacking the source of the problem? And your little colloquy on the pacific Israeli holds as much water as a rusty strainer – you have worn the bottom from your barrel of pathos.

Col Rouge … You really amaze me when you say that they support the UN resolutions (not that the UN is any great mover and shaker) BUT how many resolutions AGAINST the Israeli aggressors have been vetoed by the almighty yanks?

One could easily also name the yanks as blundering malignant aggressors as well, but I doubt that would go down well with your miniscule mindset – after all, they have only been at war since their own fight for independence where they used terrorist tactics against the British forces (you know, the same country they came from originally..) and have invaded, bombed and murdered almost countless peoples from so many sovereign countries they expropriated for commercial gains – they can not afford to have peace – their whole economy is based on other countries wars – other peoples misery!

As in democracy …. We are right – YOU are wrong!! Get over it or die.

And like Yuyutsu, you would be better off by stop playing with your tossle - before it is worn to a frazzle – but then, one could suppose, you can wear it as a tassel with pride after stumbling over a piece of string tied between two pins….

Like your style – nothing like leading from the rear is there?

Now …. Do either of you want Fries with that?

COL

Now...I...will...say...this...slowly...so...that...you...can...follow...peace...is...achieved...by...negotiation...and...compromise...so...that...neither...side...feels...it...has...lost.

Where one side claims all there is resentment. Resentment has been the catalyst for the continual conflicts in the ME. Or haven't you noticed that bombing innocents in the ME hasn't worked?

As you are a warmonger, you will continue to justify war at any cost, you see compromise as a weakness, it is not, it is a way towards cooperation, communication and ultimately, peace. That you lack the intellect to perceive that there are greater things than 'winning' and 'losing', is a sad indictment on your character.

War is the easy way out - used by bullies and as we all know, bullies are just cowards compensating for their inadequacies.

It is people like Col, Yuyutsu or Horus who are incapable of grasping the big picture.

Terrorism will continue to escalate while the western powers continue to pick sides in the ME, rather than genuinely try to set up an environment where peace can be negotiated.

Neither terrorists nor militaristic western powers give a rat's about the lives and wellbeing of citizens of the ME. They are both to blame. Picking sides and blustering about 'winning' is the stuff of kindergarten, grow up!

Kekenidika,

I don't know why I need to reiterate something so simple until you understand:

Syria did not attack Israel - so Israel does not attack it back.

This I hope is simple enough for a 5-year old or one of equivalent intelligence to understand. For others, clicking on the "Advanced/Parents" button:

* Israel does not need extra casualties from either side, if can be avoided.
* Israel signed a disengagement treaty with Syria and it is important for Israel to maintain its credibility as a nation that keeps agreements.
* despite the smear campaign, Israel has always been and still is a peace-loving nation.
* The main supplier of weapons to the Hezbullah is Iran. Syria is only their junior ally.
* Syria is allied with Iran. A war on Syria means a direct war on Iran, which Israel cannot win on its own while using only conventional weapons.
* Since no actual missiles cross over Israel's Syrian border, issues can be resolved diplomatically. The UN security council has just resolved to forbid the supply of weapons to Lebanon (except to its legitimate army and UN forces) - why not wait and see whether Syria adheres to this resolution? even if not, the UN can still use sanctions etc. War is just the last resort.

Do you still not understand why you hate the Syrian people that much?
If Israel attacks Syria as Scout suggested first and you supported, there will be no Syria left, so why are you so eager to see them dead?

Scout “War is the easy way out - used by bullies and as we all know, bullies are just cowards compensating for their inadequacies.”

“And the weak will inherit the earth, if that’s OK with everyone else.”

The usual pacificistic platitudes and sub-intellectual drivel based on the belief that appeasement will work.

Reality is Scout, it never has and never will work. If you want peace you have to be prepared to fight for it.

I am never sure whether it is a supreme folly or supreme arrogance when people like Scout assume those who oppose their cultural values share the same ethics.

Clearly, just as WWII was unavoidably fought to overcome the evils of fascism, so too this battle will be fought to overcome the evil of Hezbollah, Iran, Syria and like travellers who would see western social models and our ethical values erased from a face of the earth to be replaced by their bigoted chauvinistic paternalism, Muslim religious fascism and a social order based on a 17th Century caste system.

Scout, “peace” will only be achieved by ensuring the military supremacy of those who would pursue peace outweighs the capacity of those who would not. Any other strategy (like the asinine rubbish you seem to be alluding to) is like asking to be annihilated.

Oh keke – I ignored your post, you are not worthy of response.

Dear Col, with whom I usually agree :)

Just a little point mate... you mentioned "start from today and move on"

Then you mentioned the Battle of the Boyne.

Lets look at what that was about and see a few things.

"the war was fought for Irish sovereignty, religious toleration for Catholicism and land ownership. The Catholic upper classes had lost almost all their lands after Cromwell's conquest, as well as the right to hold public office, practice their religion and sit in the Irish Parliament."

In some ways similar to the Palestinian situation, BUT contrary to the Palestinian issue, there is no history where the IRISH TOOK the land from someone else (that I know of) Israel was STOLEN from the Jews by the Romans.

So, regarding the IRISH, I say 'start from today, look at the injustice and WRITE A NEW CHAPTER of history, addressing those injustices' !

I say the same thing about Israel, ADDRESSING HISTORY and the crime of mass exile by the Romans. The Palestinians are unfortunately in the middle of fixing this mistake/crime of history against the Jews, and in my view, should be re-located to a peaceful place, and compensated.

The Israelis are simply 'starting from today and writing a new chapter'. If they have the 'might' to do it, good for them. If not, then a different chapter will be written.

I look at the 'now' of Melbourne, and ask myself "Can I be part of writing a new chapter" ? When a pack of leftist lunatics march down from the State Library to Liberal party headquarters condemning Israel, (Saturday at 1.00pm) can I hijack their march by marching at the front with a sign condemning PLO genocides ? Can I give out information about the sins of Mohamed (and remain unhospitalized :) ?
I don't want to be an 'armchair' warrior 4eva. Perhaps this is the cost of leaving the Armchair. .....thinking.

Oh thank you Col Rouge for ignoring my post … obviously you feel quite uncomfortable, but I can understand you feeling that way…..

It is a fairly common tactic of the ignorami (please note the plural, because I know that you are too ignorant to be just one person) to deliberately misuse a name – but coming from you, one could expect no less – but do not fret, I will get over your barbs.

However, it would be remiss of me to not highlight your somewhat abysmal reading of history in relation of the impoverishment placed on Germany post WW1 and the underlying causes leading up to WW11. But then again it does not really take a degree in rocket science to realize that when you are bullied and cajoled – then what would you do? Roll over and take your whipping like a good little boy – or strike out…?

And to Yuyutsu ….

>Do you still not understand why you hate the Syrian people that much?

If Israel attacks Syria as Scout suggested first and you supported, there will be no Syria left, so why are you so eager to see them dead?<

I am still very confused here still!

To me, the Jews are very much as the Yanks – all talk and bluster, but not much bravery, as shown when they attacked Afghanistan for the alleged involvement in the 9/11 attacks – then invented the WMD excuses for invading Iraq – remember that?

Of course you had to bring in Bolivia for some unknown reason (you do not share a brain with Bush by any chance do you?) as one of the combatants – or were you just plucking straws out of the wind perhaps?

Of course if the Jews did attack Syria, then they might actually find themselves in really deep and instead of having to fight poorly trained and poorly supplied fighters – they might be up an army that could really fight back against an army that targets women and children with laser guided pin point accuracy like the Jews?

Yeah right!

David BOAZ –re the battle of the Boyne, some folk hang on to the past when they would be better off moving on (be they Protestant Orange men or Catholic IRA).

The point is, be it the Irish or Australian Aboriginals or Palestinians, continually lingering for supposed words of “Sorry” and seeking restitution for supposed past deeds done to previous generations is like the behaviour of emotional cripples.
When significant parts of communities use it as an excuse for war (as the IRA and PLO) then it is a recipe for disaster. I note, others in the same communities have always had the strength of character to do as I suggest and move on, unfortunately it seems, never in such numbers as to drag their kinsmen along with then.

It is like the Belgians seeking reparations from England and France for the disruption caused by Waterloo (to say nothing of Agincourt).

I wonder which part of “not worthy” does keke not comprehend?

Well Kekenidika,

your mind is confused because you cannot distinguish between Israel and the USA.

I must agree with you that the yanks are poor and clumsy fighters, but I did not even mention them (and frankly, I do not particularly care, know or have any strong views about American topics).

Israel is an independent country. Unfortunately, Israel was never too popular because the world tends to favour the oil-rich Arabs: some 50 years ago Israel had only France and the Soviet Union as allies, then it had only Iran (under the Shah) and South Africa, and today it happens to have the Americans as supporters, as well as the UK, Australia and Micronesia. Israel always survived, with or without friends, but whoever it is that supports it - that's very nice indeed, thank you, yet Israel does not serve anyone, it only tries to survive.

Bolivia was just a random example: instead I could have named any of about 200 other countries that did not attack Israel recently.

Israel has previously defeated the Syrian army 3 times and it would do so again if necessary... but why? who needs all this bloodshed? this whole silly discussion started by Scout strangely suggesting that Israel should attack Syria, to which I do not agree.

I strongly object to your false and ridiculous claim as if Israel ever deliberately targeted civilians. Accidents happen in war: for example, during yesterday's fighting an Israeli tank reversed and ran over 4 Israeli soldiers, killing 2 and severely wounding the other 2 - does it mean that Israel targeted its own soldiers?

Awesome article Greg. Bloody brilliant :D

Ignore the majority of the posts on here. They only serve to prove your point further.

I've given up on arguing with the usual. They're too brainwashed and indoctrinated to learn any differently.

Just like the children of Nazi Germany, they are keen to blame the Muslims for the looming World war 3. They are keen to blame the Muslims for everything but nobody buys it. The world is on our side thank goodness.

Fleurette

Your post is a breath of fresh air.

I know it is futile to attempt to reason with armchair warmongers, I just hope that my calls for negotiation for peace will resonate with the many others who read these forums and wish to see that there are those who hope for a more peaceful world.

I find it almost amusing that those who so glibly claim that continued violence will bring about peace are those who sit comfortably ensconced in their cosy homes, secure in the knowledge that they are unlikely to be blown out of their homes for being in the proximity of an 'enemy' as the people of Lebanon have had to endure.

I also notice that these same warmongers are incapable of explaining why the continual conflict in the ME has not yet achieved peace - isn't 50 years long enough? At present all we have is a very uneasy ceasefire - hardly peace and neither side is talking to each other, as they are too busy claiming victory over each other! Little children all.

Yuyutsu,

You are deluded if you believe that Israel is an independent nation. Its very existence and military superiority is dependent upon US support – billions of dollars of aid, the majority of it military – take it away and what have you got? Your statement simply does not stand up to any objective scrutiny.

You, and others, appear to view the situation as though Israel and its neighbours and supporters are like children playing in the playground, one day they are friends, and the next they are not. This is superficial and infantile thinking.

Given that the US ruling elite only ever does things to further its own economic aims – and is spending billions on Israel, rather than being uninterested in what they are doing, any reasonable thinking person would be questioning their motives on a more serious level.

You should also be examining your ideas about the need for Jewish people to have their own state. Your views are similar to Nazi ideology which said that Jews could not assimilate. This standpoint is reactionary in that instead of looking for a progressive solution in which all people can live free from want and violence, you believe that the answer is separation and further alienation, based on the use of ever greater levels of violence and repression.

Jewish people have a long history of intellectual progressive thought. It is a pity you choose to forgo that history to engage in simplistic unquestioning devotion to an ideal which has ultimately proven disastrous.

Tao,

Israel and Australia face a similar problem: they cannot be too choosy about their friends and allies.

Lets face it, the USA is evil, but we cannot do without it because it is strong and fights even bigger evils. America was not always on Israel's side. Previously, one of Israel's few allies was South Africa. Israel disliked Appartheid, but was not in a position to tell their almost single friend to go away. Same for the Soviet Union which Israel could not reject either.

Israel will survive, with or without friends, because its citizens have nowhere else to go - the difference can only be HOW it will survive: whether it be rich or poor, small or large, and whether it will have few or many casualties in its wars.

It may be easy for you to ask others to give up their culture and live without context in some blend western world - your culture. Have you thought about how many things you take for granted: the English language, the Gregorian calendar, the literature you grew up with, the 7-day week with a 2-day weekend, democracy, women having equal rights and not required to cover their face, mixed education, religious freedom, sexual freedom, Christmas, welfare, the songs you learnt in school, the right of children to leave home, the right to choose your own vocation, not having to grow or not to grow a beard, table manners, etc. etc. etc. None of the above cultural factors is obvious! How would you feel if required to assimilate in China?

I am not in favour of ethnic separation, certainly not allienation, but rather that a group of people who have their unique culture and wish to have a state where they can live accordingly, should be able to do so. If others want to join them and are happy to abide by their culture, rather than override it - they should be welcome!

I admit that my views are un-communist, but see nothing progressive about a blend gray world, where people have enough to eat, but nothing to live for.

Yuyutsu – “I admit that my views are un-communist, but see nothing progressive about a blend gray world, where people have enough to eat, but nothing to live for.”

What exactly is it that you “live for” that you deny others enough to eat (and therefore life itself)?

A calendar?

A language?

A religious holiday?

Well Tao, would you like to give those up for a start?

Nobody's hungry or wants to deny food from anybody: it is irrelevant and was just in response to your "free from want" statement.

What a common wishful-thinking: "all the problems of the world would be over if only everyone was just like me". How would you feel if, though being free from want and violence, you were forced to give up your whole way of life in favour of somebody else's? even animals do not like living in a zoo and rather be out of there despite all want and violence: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13602322/

Even today, 21st century, there are still people that have a fabric of life, or culture, a tradition dear to them which gives them a sense of belonging, continuation and purpose (and yes, it includes calendar, language, religious holidays and much more). Perhaps some of us should envy them, but is this a reason to take away what is dear to them, leaving them as [well-fed and free of violence] human-dust, either within a foreign culture that means nothing to them or in no culture at all?

Yuyutsu,

I would be quite willing go give up our calendar – what is so important about what calendar we use? It is arbitrary. I presume your Jewish calendar is based on some biblical “reason” like when God created the world about 6000 years ago. Given that God didn’t create the world, and certainly didn’t do it 6000 years ago, it is pretty irrelevant. Just as it is irrelevant when Jesus Christ was born – although it determines our calendar (which apparently is a few years out anyway).

Religious holidays? Well I would quite happily give up religious holidays. My family does not celebrate Christmas day for its religious significance, we just use it as an excuse to get together. Given that a socialist world would mean that we all work less, we should have more time to do whatever we like anyway.

Language? I have no real problem giving up English. In fact sometimes I wish I was brought up in France – French is such a beautiful language – unfortunately I can’t speak it.

I have a sense of belonging. I belong to the human race, whatever race, colour, creed, religion. Its history is my history, in all its different colourful cultures, traditions and languages.

Your attempt to paint my views as “all the problems of the world would be over if only everyone was just like me” is incorrect and disingenuous – another example of your black and white thinking. Why would I want everyone to be like me – how boring would that be?

It appears that you are the one that can’t handle difference – you want a state in which all people who are the same as you, or those willing to live like you, can live without “others” interfering. Pretty insular if you ask me.

Tao,

It is not that I care to have a state where all people are the same (quite the contrary), but about the right of people to safely live the kind of life they aspire to have.

Israel for example has Arab population: nothing wrong with that, so long as they do not become a hostile majority that defeat the very nature and purpose of that state.

If they genuinely accept that Israel is a Jewish state, that the common official language is Hebrew, the day of rest is the Sabbath, the public holidays are the Jewish ones rather than Christmas or Ramadan, that those wishing to observe the Jewish religion can safely do so without repercussions, that the history, literature, idioms, fables, morals and songs taught in public schools are primarily from the Jewish tradition, etc. and that Jews will never be persecuted in Israel, and if persecuted elsewhere they can find a shelter there - then Ahalan Wasahalan ("welcome" in Arabic) even if they become 90%. The Druze, Tcherkesian and Christian Arabs mostly accept it, and so they are part and parcel of the Israeli society, which I would hate seeing go away. Most Moslems however tend not to accept Israel as a Jewish state.

Your sense of belonging to the world is good, but too vague. It is natural for humans to also want to belong to smaller and tangible groups, such as nations and families. I understand that you would feel comfortable in the French culture, but would you honestly feel the same also in China, Japan, Afghanistan, Russia? what happens to all high-theories when for example you simply cannot speak the language? or digest the same foods? or understand their social subtleties? or unfamiliar with their literature? or when despite your good-will, the locals perceive and reject you as different?

With socialism, aren't you simply replacing nationality with class-consciousness?

I don't know you personally, so I was wrong guessing what makes you tick, but surely there are other things you wouldn't give up, perhaps your favourite football team? TV channel? beer with mates? socialist club?

Tao “I would be quite willing go give up our calendar . . .
I would quite happily give up religious holidays. . .
I have no real problem giving up English. . . .

I have a sense of belonging.”

a sense of belonging yet belongs to nothing. Identifying with a non-identity.

When someone sees nothing worth keeping, all it means is they have no sense of values.

That is the dross of the socialist, the universal society, no differences, nothing to distinguish themselves by or with. All reduced to a world of worker drones slaving away for the sake of what?

Better we identify with our families and friends, glory in their individuality and work for their betterment than be the mindless drones whose existence cares not for calendar, values or language and yet belong to an indifferent and anonymous world state.

As dearest Margaret wrote

“There is no such thing as Society. There are individual men and women, and there are families.”

Are you pulling our legs Col, or are you just kidding yourself?

According to you (and of course Maggie) there is no society to “identify with” or “belong to”, just individuals and families.

Yet apparently, if we don’t identify with the products of “society” i.e. our common calendar, language and religious holidays, we are just drones. It has obviously never occurred to you that such things arise because humans communicate and interact with each other in a social manner i.e. in “society”.

Where did you get your education from, out of a corn flakes packet?

I’d actually be really interested to know which so-called educational institutions (ooh … another product of society) have been graced with your intellectual prowess and still managed to see fit to confer a degree upon you – just so I know which ones to avoid.

Unless of course I wanted to take “Contradictions 101 – How to increase your rate of contradictions in a 350 word argument”.

Tao “Where did you get your education from, out of a corn flakes packet”

Oh tristram / tao, no, I did not receive any credentials from where you got yours.

I would observe the profession which I am accredited in UK is not regulated by university academia (although a good degree pass will get someone partial credit) and my Australian professional accreditations accepts most post grad MBAs for partial credit too. So, no point in telling more, since like most wannabe intellectual snobs, you would doubtless fail to cut the minimum acceptance muster,

I guess your degrees in macramé and basket weaving sit you in good stead for the sheltered workshop but for real world issues, I suggest you leave them to the grown ups.

Given that my degrees in macrame and basketweaving allow me to see the glaring contradictions in your argument, while for all of your gold-plated qualifications you don’t, as I said – I know which ones to avoid.

Of course in your milieu, being able to contradict yourself at every turn is probably considered a virtue.

What you see as “contradictions” are merely the manifestation of your own corrupt and malignant reasoning and the green eyed ramblings of the socially impotent..

Thus, your view does not rank as anything approaching "qualitative" concern.

Oh Co-ol

Here http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=2848#867 you said “Personal Responsibility is the essence which makes society work.”.

So which is it? Is there “society” or is there not?

Don’t you think it is about time you took Personal Responsibility – with a capital P and R - for your own contradictions?

Or is it do as I say, not as I do?

BTW what makes you think I am concerned? Amused is more like it. LOL

Conclusion of the investigation about the killing of 4 UN soldiers:

There was an error in the map that the Israeli intelligence used: the UN post was wrongly marked as a Hezbullah position, which was in fact 180 meters away.