Citizen, I am not discriminatory, I despise Islamic extremist leaders who use religion to spread their message of hatred just as much as I despise so called christians who do the same.

But I beleive that you have missed a key point, Islamic fundamentalist leaders like those in Saudi Arabia or Iran have nowhere near the military or economic strength that the right-wing extremist leaders in America do. It is for this reason that I genuinely fear what will happen if the US continues on its destructive path. The ramifications of massive social upheaval in the US are likely to be severe, not for people in far off places, but for you and me.

Ah, but the Islamic countries could also pose a threat to us I hear you say. That is unlikely, yes they can disrupt our oil supply and hurt our economy but from a military standpoint they dont stand a chance.

Instead of fear mongering us with Islamaphobia you should look closer to home to identify the real threats

Carl - <Islamic fundamentalist leaders like those in Saudi Arabia or Iran have nowhere near the military or economic strength that the right-wing extremist leaders in America do>

True. But this is why Muslim extremists are attacking us within our own countries. Thats why they are intent on outbreeding the populations of European countries and attempting to enact sharia law in the West.

If large scale Muslim immigration transforms Europe into Eurabia, there will be no need to invade the West. It will be a fait accompli. 'Massive social upheaval' is already here.

< ..sacrificed for imperial wars of agression>.

Yes, you are young, I can tell by the language of lefty propaganga passed on by your teachers.

@Carl Don't bother despising, just wake up to how dangerous the collision between fundamentalist jews, fundamentalist christians and fundamentalist muslims is becoming for everyone. They all yearn for armageddon. Religion is proof of just how stupid humans are but why should the rest of humanity suffer. Jihadis don't need sophisticated weapons systems because they have a billion morons at their disposal. Religion should be recognised for the mental illness that it is. Wake up, they hate everything you stand for.

Most of the posts on this topic are not more than propaganda, based in political / philosophical / religious bias.

There will never be a society where one political /philosophical / religion held by its leaders will please all citizens. Any society that wishes to make it so will have to kill off dissenters.

The only society that can survive is one who allows freedom for every individual political / philosophical / religious views; and accepts others right to hold them. What appears as lies to one is believed as fact to another.

The quality of that society is how one relates to another within, with a different political / philosophical / religious view. That is why it is important to view the laws, culture and actual criminalising practises occurring within that society on its own citizens and by its citizens before concluding what is best practise.

Since Dee and Alan know so much about the truth, maybe they could fill the world in on some questions that no other neocon has been able to explain:

1. Why are 7 of the 19 9/11 hijackers still alive and living normal lives?

2. Why was the world shown footage of Bin Laden conversing with his fellow terrorists about the 9/11 attacks faked?

- Bin Laden wearing a gold ring, forbidden by Islamic law
- Bin Laden writing with his right hand despite the FBIs website stating that he is left handed.
- Bin Laden not even looking anything like himself. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html

3. Why is it that the only video footage of the Pentagon strike we get to see is a time-lapse video that doesn’t show a plane hitting it, yet the Pentagon is surrounded by video cameras? If there’s no truth to the conspiracy theories then why don’t they just show all the other footage that shows a plane hitting the only wall built for to withstand that sort of impact (a handy coincidence)?

4. Why is it that we still haven’t seen the footage from the cameras from the rooftops of all the hotels surrounding the Pentagon that the plane would have passed over? Not to mention the cameras on the highways that the plane would have flown strait over?

Why the need for all the secrecy?

If there is no truth in the conspiracy theories then why did Bush feel the need to address them?

If there is no truth in the conspiracy theories then why have they ignored most of them and misrepresented the rest of them at http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1 ?

It’s funny how the neocons are so sure of what the truth is yet they can’t find any answers to biggest inconsistencies of the whole 9/11 and Iraq war situation.

Horus, perhaps I should have prefaced my remarks by denouncing the autocratic/theocratic regime that's now in charge in Iran. However I'd have thought (foolishly it appears) that my contempt for Iran's ruling junta was self-evident.

Saintfletcher, if you're going to peddle unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about the Sydney you should note that; a] It is HMAS (not HMS) Sydney, b] the German raider was the Kormoran (not Kormorant or Kormerant) and c) that the RMS Lusitania (not HMS Lucitania) was sunk in WW1 not WW2 (and definitely not by the Kormoran or Kormorant). As for the stuff on 9/11, what can I say.....

I find myself agreeing with Citizen and Philo. Surely no religion (or idealogy or point of view) is worth a single human life? If your beliefs say it is OK to kill someone else (self-defence excepted) then your beliefs- no matter how strongly held- are worthless. "Pre-emptive strike" is just propaganda excusing murder, which I guess brings us back to Irfan's original point.

In his book "Faces of the enemy" Sam Keen argues that the propaganda comes first. While he probably overstates his case, his introduction is worth repeating given all the hatreds expressed in this thread. "In the beginning we create the enemy. Before the weapon comes the image. We think others to death and then invent the battle-axe or the ballistic missiles with which to actually kill them. Propaganda precedes technology."