Nicky

Your apologies are excepted and yes you have got the wrong message. Not only that the whole concept is inncorrect. PALE does not have 'vetted interests' as you put in in any business especially the meat trade. PALE does have however concerns about most of the Animal Welfare organisations being extreme and branded extreme because this works against the animals instead of "for them"

Brian Shermann is a fantastic person and his two daughters. You wont get any argument about that. However he has not been involved in Animal Welfare for a great period of time. The only main stream group apart from this one is the RSPCA. We all know here has been a great deal of problems between RSPCA and say for example Animals Australia and Animal Liberation PETA to name a few.

I am not saying that they have not raised some very valid points either. What I am saying Nicky is the RSPCA are the Animal Welfare Authority in Australia and as such everybody needs to get behind them.

It is only by doing so the Animal Welfare groups together will succeed.
RSPCA do not oppose the slaughter of Animals but do encourage it is carried out humanely from paddock to plate.

It is in this regard we support them knowing full well there is no way we can tell people not to eat meat. Nor do I feel we have that right.

Free Range Farms co-jointly operated between live importers and Aussie Farmers is the only other alternative to live exports.

Think about it Brian is supporting Free Range Farms already. Yes? good. Ok then the fact is if we wish to divert intensive animals into Free Range and Feed lot animals into Free Range and stop Live Exports we have!to open more meat plants Nicky.

Its ridiculous to support Free Range Farming but not re opening the plants to stop them being sent alive.
If we want to stop live animal exports we have to all work together on the labour for abattoirs and the abattoirs themselves.

cont.
Nicky if we are to stop live animal exports we have to give the farmers a good alternative. The bottom line with Farmers really is the money. They have familes and bills too. To do that you have to look at the trade dollar and what drives live exports. You also have to entice the people overseas who are taking live animals to divert to slaughtering here. Its a monster of a job and somebody must address this. There is no point crying about live exports while putting your head in the sand refusing to help establish alternatives.

Nobody asked Brian to get involved with abattoirs Nicky.

What I am saying is the proposal for alternatives should be supported.

I have nothing against vegetarians Nicky. I am one myself. However that wont stop live exports.


Help find good alternatives for Farmers Nicky and you will help the Animals. Brians contacts are not doing him any good because they are bassed on vegetarian beliefs.

We do not have the right to tell others not to eat meat. We do have the right and should have the will to help the farmers get a better price if we re open abattoirs in Australia.

It is hypocritical to oppose live exports but not support the only clear alternative for live exports.

I do expect Brian however to support by way of letter or letters the idea of opening more plants here. As a business man surely he can see that the farmers must get a fair price for their stock.
When you open a post on a forum you must allow everybody to express their views. Brian must be aware of that.

Do think about it Brian because you have a opportunity to really make a difference for the Animals.
Sit Quietly and look how PETA and libbers are referred to by all media. Do you want that for yourself and family and also the animals. I am also making it clear I am writing on this post as a private member of the public.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/submissions.html
Mrs Antje Struthmann

Nicky

Not to be debated here. I am afraid that is what a forum is for. I can only say again not just to Voiceless but anybody interested to stop the barbaric trade of live animals there is but one solution.
Find a way to open more abattoirs in Australia and make that viable for the farmers. Giving money away blindly to veg groups however well intended doesnt cut it and it never will. The problem goes far beyond people standing at warfs protesting. That has been done for thirty years pluss.
Whats really required is a TV and CD radio hit educating the public as to what is happening to the animals and why. If we dont reopen some abattoirs soon and start to turn it around we will never stop. I assume you have gone into damage control thinking I am having a go at Brian. That is the problem peoples egos get in the way of Animal Welfare. You thought you were taking a cheap shot at me when you said people with" vetted interests" Well Nicky I have got big shoulders you can call me whatever you like if I think it will help the animals. However lets look at the counter argument shall we? Lets just say I knew were interested in opening abattiors in Australia just for money. I put it to you if you were a cow or a sheep and you had a choice of going to a abattoir in Australia that I owned where they do have pre stunning and some animal welfare laws or going on a death ship as we all know them to countries with none you might prefer to come to my abattoir.
Dont you think?
If you dont compete in the real world and get practicle all the tears you have wont be enough. You can be angry if you wish. You can shoot the messanger as well thats ok.
Just read this in a few years time with an open mind.

Here is a message from two professional animal welfare organisations that may interest most on this thread:

Yesterday - Animals Australia, in conjunction with Sydney based animal protection organisation Voiceless, The Berg Family Foundation and Hunter Hall International Ltd, launched the largest ever national advertising campaign to highlight the suffering of pigs in factory farms. This unique alliance was formed knowing that the cruel pork industry has prospered through consumer ignorance, and that due to legal exemptions based on 'commercial considerations', pigs are being subjected to practices and procedures that would be classed as cruelty offences if they were committed against the family dog or cat. In their ability to suffer, pigs are no different to the animals who have become our companions.

At the same time, Animals Australia has launched Make the Pro Pig Pledge!, a nation-wide initiative for caring consumers. We are asking all Australians who believe that these highly sensitive and intelligent animals deserve protection from acts of cruelty to make the Pro Pig Pledge - We'll update the tally of Pro Pig Pledges received on our savebabe website each week to show Pledgers - and the pork industry! - how many compassionate Australians are supporting our campaign.

Make the Pro Pig Pledge
http://www.savebabe.com/pledge.html

Mos

reply from your earlier post.[If it wasnt so serious it would be funny]

Farmers will tell them there is no point promoting Free Range Meats if you refuse to support Free Range Farmers. Does that make sense to anybody yet?
This was sent by a Farmer. It tells the story.
"A letter From A Free Range Farmer">

This is a paragraph from an email I got from Animals Australia. I had asked them to support the farmers doing the right thing.

"their reply'"

“Thankyou for your e-mail, and for your support of the SaveBabe.com campaign. We do get asked on occasion why we don't directly promote free range and organic pig farming, and there are a couple of reasons for this. Firstly, we do have a large membership, many of whom are vegetarian, and also around forty member society organisations, and whilst we ask that consumers demand that alternative (ie more welfare-friendly) products be provided, as an animal welfare organisation we cannot promote a product that causes any suffering to animals. Whislt we recognise of course that organic and free range is a much more humane option than factory farms, issues such as transportation, slaughter etc. inherently does cause stress and possibly pain and it's not something that we can promote because of this. Even if we were to promote certain farms or labels, we do not have the resources to inspect or audit properies (like the RSPCA does) and therefor it would be hard to officially endorse them on an ongoing basis because of this.”


Farmers comments
Their ideal is out of touch with reality. We are meant to eat meat. No point trying to deny it and as long as that is their ultimate aim, to make us all vegetarian, they will not have my full support.

"quite rightly too" We need to actually promote and support the farmers doing to right thing not shun them"

Remember. No Free Range farmers> Not much sense in promting Free Range meat.

Antje Struthmann

I have to confess that I am a little bewildered by the hostility to my comments from "People against Live Exports". I followed the link provided, which took me to a submission, to the Senate, as I understand it, which seemed largely about promoting a chain of privately owned slaughterhouses. As for "giving" the farmers anything, my view is that they are amongst the highly privileged in society, receiving government handouts and tax relief that other businesses only dream of. Other businesses have to be competitive within their environments without such benefits, but within the ethical constraints that society expects. What society does not expect is animal cruelty such as intensive pig and chicken farming, and sending live animals to face appallingly cruel deaths half a world away, and for that trade to be supported and subsidized by a government complicit in the cruelty because so many politicians have farming interests.Being paranoid about whether or not the various groups who continue to fight that cruelty are vegetarian, vegan or not seems supremely irrelevant (unless you own a chain of slaughterhouses or farming interests, of course). Farmers are primarily motivated by greed. The only way live exports will stop is when the government is forced to stop them.