Mos,

Do vegans live longer than normal people?

Please show me some evidence to back your claim that we dont need meat.

Thanks to meat our brain has developed faster, why do you want to try and reverse evolution?

There are some valid vegan arguments but the end of the day, Tofu sucks and meat is a vital part of our diet for Iron, proteins, vitamins & acids and the like.

Yes we dont need it to survive essentially, but we dont need the foods that you eat to survive either, ie we could survive off meat alone also.

It is shameful to hurt living things, but guess what we are a parasite that destroys the planets and by the time we do so, our species will have moved on to the next world.

Yes, Vegans arnt the only crazy critters. All this steak has gone to my head.

Absolutely not, MOS

>>To take your line of argument (one often thrown at those of us who argue for better conditions for nonhuman animals) to its logical conclusion would mean that only the perfect could ever express an opinion.<<

Not at all, I am only suggesting that a bit more consistency in the argument would help it along.

Whether we like it or not, we have become accustomed over the millennia to treat animals as exploitable. Doesn't make it "right", but on the list of global miseries, it ranks right up there with the weather.

It would be nice to think that we could address the inequities of human-to-human behaviour before going off about bunnies and piggies. Receptus ignavorum, as my Latin master would say, the coward's retreat. It is so much easier to show concern for widdle wabbits than tackle really serious problems.

MOS, the picture I paint is not too optimistic, its where pig farming is heading, as its so far ahead of the concrete bunker system. The
guys and pigs who have switched to it are thriving, so given time
others will eventually see the light.

Like you I agree that we should not be cruel to animals to farm them, but unlike you I think that we can farm them sustainably and that many of the points that you raise are nonsense.

If we take say the prime lamb industry, those lambs live in a natural environment in Aus, eating grass out in nature, its quite a sustainable industry without any factory farming involved.

The notion that we should crop all that land instead is a flawed one. Firstly there is nobody with the money to buy the crops, secondly the soil would not sustain it. Animals grazing that land are the closest thing to a natural environment. In fact they are better off then the animals out in nature, who die of starvation in
droughts, when predators attack them, if they are diseased or if the water runs out. Watching thousands of animals dying of starvation is not a pretty sight I assure you.

Much of world hunger could be solved, if the Catholic Church did not have its ridiculous anti contraception and anti abortion policy in the third world. The population keeps increasing by 80 million a year, much of it in the third world, where the Vatican has had an influence. But seeing that they believe that human suffering is ok,
why are more people not protesting about the actions of religious nuts and the pope?

All farming is not factory farming, some of it is sustainable, not cruel, some is factory farming, which I personally disagree with.

Yup I buy free range eggs and free range chucks, I eat lamb
and beef grown in natural environments. I have yet to see a good argument against it.

So I think that your vegan arguments are over the top and extreme

It is true that pigs raised for food are kept in horrific conditions and abused. The mother pigs are kept in sow stalls, cruel metal cages in which the pig can not even turn around to nuzzle, or have any natural contact with her babies. Understandably many pigs go crazy with frustration an continually gnaw on the bars in front of them.
The pigs that become ham, bacon and pork aren’t much better off. They are castrated and have their teeth and tails sliced off without anesthetic. They are kept caged and die a death that is often painful.
The lucky pigs are stunned before slaughter, but sometimes this doesn't even work and the pigs reawake with their throats slit or even in the scalding hot water used to remove hair.

Pigs are highly intelligent creatures, and have been proven to be smarter than both dogs and three year old children! But the fact is that NO sentient being should be treated in a way that causes them suffering.

While some may say my vegan arguments are extreme, I think the suffering felt by millions of farmed animals in Australia is more extreme and totally unnecessary.

Also the lamb or sheep meat industry is not cruelty-free. While factory farming may not play a big part the animals are still abused. Sheep are still castrated and have their tails removed with no pain-killers, are transported in the heat with no water for many kilometres and still die a painful death in a slaughter house. Please, don't anyone fool themselves into thinking that their meat had a happy life and a "happy death" because most likely it is not true.

So why give your money to cruel industries and cause more animals to be killed. Why should beautiful animals have to suffer and die for a momentary taste of their flesh? Meat is NOT necessary for human health and I myself am living proof of that, having been a proud vegan since age 6! All nutrients needed for life are available from plant sources and not all vegetarians even eat tofu.

www.savebabe.com

On a different topic I have noticed that some people are opposed to "enslaving" a dog or cat in your home as a companion animal but this argument is foolish. At the moment we are in a serious dog and cat overpopulation crisis and there are far too many animals and far too less good homes. So adopt a companion animal from a shelter and save his or her life because otherwise they might be put-down. This happens far too often because
people continue to breed their dogs and cats and don't get them de-sexed. This results in just too many animals and a lot of dogs or cats brought as kittens or puppies from the pet shop get dumped after a few short months, or once they get past their "cute" stage. For more info see:
www.goveg.com
www.alv.org.au
www.saynotoanimalsinpetshops.com
www.helpinganimals.com

"Please, don't anyone fool themselves into thinking that their meat had a happy life and a "happy death" because most likely it is not true"

Lizey, fair enough if you are emotionally engulfed, but clearly you are a city slicker who has no idea as to what happens in the country.

Yes lambs have their tails chopped off. Have you ever watched it happen and watched their reaction? My pet lamb never even blinked,
simply went back to chewing on some clover. Meantime human babies are circumcised without anesthetic. Go and ask some of your male friends if they remember the pain. Perhaps you should hug them for all that suffering :)

Have you ever been to a meatworks and seen how a stun gun works?
You are making comments about things that you simply don't understand, I am sorry to say. I know, you have a big heart, but really it would help if you are a little informed.

You defend dogs as pets, but the amount of neurotic dogs, locked up in city apartments and houses, whilst their owners go to work, bored sh*tless day after day, is far more cruel then a lamb or sheep grazing out in the pasture, which is a natural environment for them, doing what they naturally do.

Yes, sheep go on trucks. People go on trains and buses. So what?

Lizey I am sure that you have a caring heart, but don't throw all forms of farming into one barrel, for you are clearly out of your depth in understanding.