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The Forum > Article Comments > Give ‘babe’ some wriggle room > Comments

Give ‘babe’ some wriggle room : Comments

By Mirko Bagaric, published 9/5/2006

We are camped somewhere near the base of the moral mountain when it comes to pig farming.

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Are you mad?

It is obvious you have not realy looked at the issue.

Intensive farming is the only way we as a planet can expect to succeed through the next 50 years with the expected population increase.

Forget the inhumane treatment of them, they are getting farmed for a purpose and when compared to other animals in other parts of the world, such as Arabia or Asia, your argument of inhumane treatment by us is an absolute joke.

Have you no grasp of supply and demand, of the impact of hard hooved animals on the land, of the lessening and marginalisation of productive land in Australia due to non intensive farming practices and the like.

Your bleeding heart for stock if you had it your way would impact on the rest of us as less land would be available for crops and other stock, pigs are a pest and make a huge mess of the land and it would be a far more stupid decision to decrease the quality of life for native animals and put smaller lot farmers out of business just to increase the quality of life for an animal doomed for meat anyway.

No one likes to see an animal in pain. There are no barbaric actions involved and if they are little tightly sdqueezed at times, a pig pen is alot better than having their hooves cut or being frightened when killed. And, the more they run around, the more energy they use therefore the more you have to feed them to get the target weight. You absolutely cost the planet and the farmer more by doing this.

Find something better to do with your time than preach for realy stupid reasons, there are alot of things out there that need your help so dont pick these silly things.
Posted by Realist, Tuesday, 9 May 2006 10:19:19 AM
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Australia has no obligation to feed the world’s growing population: and, as the growth seems to be mainly among Muslims, certainly not with pork!

I eat meat, including pork, and I am no animal rightist. But I do cringe when I see animals jammed cruelly into trucks on their way to slaughter, and I refuse to keep animals as prisoners (pets).

Mirko Bagaric is right. We have a shocking history in animal treatment. His suggestions for humane pig farming are the right ones.

Realist, however, is correct about the effects of hoofed animals on Australia’s ancient, shallow and worn out soil. We have done many things to this land, which should not have been done because of greed, ignorance, increased world population and demand. If we knew at the time of settlement what we know now, it is doubtful that Australia would have been permanently settled by anyone other than its original inhabitants whose demands were not as great as ours.

We have seen what the European style of farming has done to large tracts of Australia. If we cannot let pigs onto the land where they can at least live in comfort with the companionship of their fellows until their time is up, we should think seriously about whether or not we have the right to keep them. The same applies to poultry; cattle in feed lots and live sheep exports.
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 9 May 2006 11:33:59 AM
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I couldn't agree with Professor Bagaric more and while the article was in the business pages, I long for the day that his article reaches the front page of the Melbourne Age. We should be ashamed the way in which we treat intensively farmed pigs and other animals. The day will come when we give animals equal consideration and consider their needs. I hope I live long enough to see that day.
Susanne
Posted by Susanne, Tuesday, 9 May 2006 12:43:33 PM
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"Realist" is anything but. The growing population of the world will not and cannot be fed on animal protein. Apart from the appalling and unacceptable treatment of all species of animals farmed under factory conditions, this practice is an environmental disaster and completely unsustainable. The Amazon rain forest is being cleared ... to feed cattle! Bird flu is emerging from the overcrowded and unhygienic chicken "factories" of Asia. The real "reality" is that the amount of land required to grow the crops to feed animals and the amount of water needed just does not exist in developing countries. Eating large quantities animal protein is just too costly to the environment and not required for healthy nutrition. The result of factory farming of the last 50 years has been to completely brutalise farming, make meat so cheap that most of the population of Western countries has become overweight and increase the possibility of novel disease vectors emerging. For the benefit of animals, human health and the environment meat should become a luxury item- consumed in strict moderation.
Posted by sunnypig, Tuesday, 9 May 2006 12:58:35 PM
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Free Range Eggs anyone? What about barn laid as opposed to caged. Maybe Mirko could take the same arguments and replace "hen" with "pig".

Hmmm, Bacon.
Posted by Narcissist, Tuesday, 9 May 2006 1:51:17 PM
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Realist
"Forget the inhumane treatment of them, they are getting farmed for a purpose and when compared to other animals in other parts of the world, such as Arabia or Asia, your argument of inhumane treatment by us is an absolute joke."
Nice bit of trolling. Your arguments boil down to:
- 'farmed for a purpose' so making farm animals commodities like uranium and widgets makes it OK to treat them like widgets etc.
- 'when compared to other animals in other parts of the world, such as Arabia or Asia...' two wrongs make a right...
- 'your argument of inhumane treatment by us is an absolute joke' belittling others only diminishes your argument.

Your attitude is nauseating, I hope your post was trolling for trolling's sake and not your genuine opinion on this extremely important issue. And as for "Find something better to do with your time than preach for realy stupid reasons" I think you have got it as wrong as anyone ever could. Without dragging religion into it (I'm certainly not religious but can appreciate the wisdom found in certain religious teachings) I will leave you with a quote:
“Whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me.”
Mistreatment of any living creature for economic reasons is appalling and diminishes all of us, not only those who carry it out, but also those who argue in favour of it.
L
Posted by LizX, Tuesday, 9 May 2006 2:06:40 PM
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You are all mad.

Even thousands of years ago before agriculture, an animal had a horrific death at the hands of basic tools and neanderthals.

Lets say you implement these less intensive farm practices and everyone went back to an agricultural self sufficient society, when any animal is killed it would be an ordeal for them.

I have been on the land and killed animals for our own food, and let me tell you, if i were an animal i would much rather go to a feedlot and abbotior to die humanely and instantly with a bolt than by a farmer trying to cut my throat and i have to go through a harrowing experience.

Be realistic, intensive farming of Animals are a fact of life and are hear to stay. You can say bird flu, this and that, but it is better than using more precious land, degredating it, and going back to the pathetic means of killing these animals by non intensive, less structured methods.

You guys are all detached from the facts of this matter. I am an animal lover, but due to my first hand experiences i am realistic about it. It is not as bad as the writer makes out, and as i said, if i were a pig sign me up for a feedlot straight away rather than the alternate.
Posted by Realist, Tuesday, 9 May 2006 2:36:54 PM
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Where oh where are our resident ethicists when you need them?

Humans have always had a blind spot when it comes to animals. Compare our attitude towards the humane clubbing to death of fluffy baby seals with our eagerness to subject rats to a lingering death by poison.

Compare the hue and cry over fox hunting with our willingness to shoot thousands of perfectly healthy birds because one of them might have 'flu.

Or think about our unquestioning "right" to own a pet? By what "right" do we imprison for life an innocent creature, purely to meet some selfish need of our own? By what "right" do we race horses and dogs against each other for our amusement?

"Camped somewhere near the base of the moral mountain"? I'd say. But why pick on pigs? Let's at least try to be a tiny bit consistent.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 9 May 2006 2:50:52 PM
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As sunnypig said, “Realist is anything but”.

Global warming, caused in part by land clearing, is one of the most pressing environmental problems facing the world. Most land clearing, such as in the Amazon forest, is carried out either to run cattle or grow grain to feed them in feedlots.

Emissions of CO2 also contribute to global warming. 21% of the CO2 emissions attributable to human causes come from livestock. Stop animal farming and you immediately take a huge step toward reversing global warming.

Farming for meat is also inefficient. It takes roughly 10kg of plant protein to produce 1kg of animal protein.

If we simply fed all the grain being grown for animals directly to humans, world hunger could be solved now.

Meat also uses huge amounts of water. It takes around 13,500 litres of water to produce just 1kg of steak in terms of feed and water to the animal. 1kg of wheat, by contrast, takes around 1,000 litres of water. The typical diet of a meat-eating American requires around 5,400 litres a day, while a vegetarian diet which has the same nutritional value requires around 2,600 litres of water a day.”

Try the online eco-footprint calculator at http://www.epa.vic.gov.au/Eco-footprint/Households/default.asp and see what a difference being vegan can make to your impact on the world.

As for the amount of animal waste being produced every day by the animals we ‘farm’ – don’t even think about it. Much too messy.

Finally, and most importantly, these animals (pigs in this case) have as much right to follow their natural lives as we do. We have no right to treat them as we do (incarceration, painful operations like castration, tail docking etc., and slaughter) for unnecessary food.

We live very well on a vegan diet – a damn site better than those still addicted to meat and dairy.
Posted by MOS, Tuesday, 9 May 2006 5:59:22 PM
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Before you claim the entire moral high ground for yourself, MOS, do you keep a cat or a dog?

Then take a look around you, and count the damage you have done to the animal kingdom by your choice of clothes, or to the animal habitats that you have destroyed in the preparation of your daily newspaper, or in bringing the electricity to your house.

If you are living in an oil-lamplit mud hut back of Nimbin and cultivate your own tofu, then please accept my apologies. Because that is the only way you can avoid this thing we call "living in the twentyfirst century".

Otherwise, you are simply being selective in your choice of examples of humanity's cruelty to the animal kingdom. It's been going on since the first caveman whacked the first wild boar over the head and turned it into pork chops, and will continue until one side - probably us - dies out.

Picking on one narrow subset of such treatment is simply being hypocritical. You cannot say on the one hand "these animals ... have as much right to follow their natural lives as we do" and support their enslavement, or the destruction of their habitat, on the other.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 10 May 2006 10:30:36 AM
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The author might be a bit behind the times here. The old concrete bunkers are the past in pig farming, although no doubt still being used by some. Modern piggeries use a system called shelters, where 100 or so pigs are housed together and have plenty of room to tear around and play with one another etc. Tonnes and tonnes of straw
are placed in there, to keep them warm at night. The result, compared to the old concrete bunkers, is like night and day.
Far less disease, far happier pigs, far less capital investment,
so win-win all round. Who eats us when we die is not really an issue, for the worms will eat us humans in the end too.

Personally I am against concious suffering of any species, including farm animals. There is no need to be cruel to them for money.
There are in fact win-win solutions out there, if you think beyond the old square.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 10 May 2006 8:59:09 PM
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No – I’m not perfect, Pericles, but I do what I can.

And no – no pets – though I’d argue that today’s cats and dogs are the end product of thousands of years of co-habitation with humans and are generally very happy in our company. It’s pretty much their natural life now.

To take your line of argument (one often thrown at those of us who argue for better conditions for nonhuman animals) to its logical conclusion would mean that only the perfect could ever express an opinion. It would be a very quiet world.

Let’s stick to the facts.

The meat industry is unsustainable. It damages the environment and contributes to world hunger.

We can live very well without meat.

We are animals very much like the animals we mistreat and eat – particularly the mammals such as pigs. While there are differences I defy anyone to tell me which of those differences gives us the right to treat them as we do and ignore their pain and their interests.

The treatment of animals in factory farms is unacceptable – no matter how far either you or I have progressed along the path to perfection.

---

‘Yabby’ paints too optimistic a picture. It is good to see some advances being made but according to Voiceless’s recent report on the NSW pig industry "From Paddocks to Prisons: Pigs in NSW Current Practices, Future Directions" (http://www.voiceless.org.au/Get_Informed/Factory_Farming/Pig_Industry_Report.html) there is a long way to go.

Sow stalls are still in use (approximately 26% of sows are housed in stalls in Australia for most of their reproductive cycles and up to 62% may be in stalls for a part of their reproductive cycle. Under the Pig Code, sow stalls are 0.6m x 2.0m. Sows are not able to turn around or take more than one step forward or back.)

More than 90% of growing pigs are still raised in confinement.

Piglets suffer mutilations (tail docking, teeth trimming and castration of piglets) without appropriate pain relief.
Posted by MOS, Thursday, 11 May 2006 11:13:56 AM
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Mos,

Do vegans live longer than normal people?

Please show me some evidence to back your claim that we dont need meat.

Thanks to meat our brain has developed faster, why do you want to try and reverse evolution?

There are some valid vegan arguments but the end of the day, Tofu sucks and meat is a vital part of our diet for Iron, proteins, vitamins & acids and the like.

Yes we dont need it to survive essentially, but we dont need the foods that you eat to survive either, ie we could survive off meat alone also.

It is shameful to hurt living things, but guess what we are a parasite that destroys the planets and by the time we do so, our species will have moved on to the next world.

Yes, Vegans arnt the only crazy critters. All this steak has gone to my head.
Posted by Realist, Thursday, 11 May 2006 12:28:44 PM
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Absolutely not, MOS

>>To take your line of argument (one often thrown at those of us who argue for better conditions for nonhuman animals) to its logical conclusion would mean that only the perfect could ever express an opinion.<<

Not at all, I am only suggesting that a bit more consistency in the argument would help it along.

Whether we like it or not, we have become accustomed over the millennia to treat animals as exploitable. Doesn't make it "right", but on the list of global miseries, it ranks right up there with the weather.

It would be nice to think that we could address the inequities of human-to-human behaviour before going off about bunnies and piggies. Receptus ignavorum, as my Latin master would say, the coward's retreat. It is so much easier to show concern for widdle wabbits than tackle really serious problems.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 11 May 2006 5:28:31 PM
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MOS, the picture I paint is not too optimistic, its where pig farming is heading, as its so far ahead of the concrete bunker system. The
guys and pigs who have switched to it are thriving, so given time
others will eventually see the light.

Like you I agree that we should not be cruel to animals to farm them, but unlike you I think that we can farm them sustainably and that many of the points that you raise are nonsense.

If we take say the prime lamb industry, those lambs live in a natural environment in Aus, eating grass out in nature, its quite a sustainable industry without any factory farming involved.

The notion that we should crop all that land instead is a flawed one. Firstly there is nobody with the money to buy the crops, secondly the soil would not sustain it. Animals grazing that land are the closest thing to a natural environment. In fact they are better off then the animals out in nature, who die of starvation in
droughts, when predators attack them, if they are diseased or if the water runs out. Watching thousands of animals dying of starvation is not a pretty sight I assure you.

Much of world hunger could be solved, if the Catholic Church did not have its ridiculous anti contraception and anti abortion policy in the third world. The population keeps increasing by 80 million a year, much of it in the third world, where the Vatican has had an influence. But seeing that they believe that human suffering is ok,
why are more people not protesting about the actions of religious nuts and the pope?

All farming is not factory farming, some of it is sustainable, not cruel, some is factory farming, which I personally disagree with.

Yup I buy free range eggs and free range chucks, I eat lamb
and beef grown in natural environments. I have yet to see a good argument against it.

So I think that your vegan arguments are over the top and extreme
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 11 May 2006 8:38:51 PM
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It is true that pigs raised for food are kept in horrific conditions and abused. The mother pigs are kept in sow stalls, cruel metal cages in which the pig can not even turn around to nuzzle, or have any natural contact with her babies. Understandably many pigs go crazy with frustration an continually gnaw on the bars in front of them.
The pigs that become ham, bacon and pork aren’t much better off. They are castrated and have their teeth and tails sliced off without anesthetic. They are kept caged and die a death that is often painful.
The lucky pigs are stunned before slaughter, but sometimes this doesn't even work and the pigs reawake with their throats slit or even in the scalding hot water used to remove hair.

Pigs are highly intelligent creatures, and have been proven to be smarter than both dogs and three year old children! But the fact is that NO sentient being should be treated in a way that causes them suffering.

While some may say my vegan arguments are extreme, I think the suffering felt by millions of farmed animals in Australia is more extreme and totally unnecessary.

Also the lamb or sheep meat industry is not cruelty-free. While factory farming may not play a big part the animals are still abused. Sheep are still castrated and have their tails removed with no pain-killers, are transported in the heat with no water for many kilometres and still die a painful death in a slaughter house. Please, don't anyone fool themselves into thinking that their meat had a happy life and a "happy death" because most likely it is not true.

So why give your money to cruel industries and cause more animals to be killed. Why should beautiful animals have to suffer and die for a momentary taste of their flesh? Meat is NOT necessary for human health and I myself am living proof of that, having been a proud vegan since age 6! All nutrients needed for life are available from plant sources and not all vegetarians even eat tofu.

www.savebabe.com
Posted by lizey, Monday, 15 May 2006 6:05:55 PM
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On a different topic I have noticed that some people are opposed to "enslaving" a dog or cat in your home as a companion animal but this argument is foolish. At the moment we are in a serious dog and cat overpopulation crisis and there are far too many animals and far too less good homes. So adopt a companion animal from a shelter and save his or her life because otherwise they might be put-down. This happens far too often because
people continue to breed their dogs and cats and don't get them de-sexed. This results in just too many animals and a lot of dogs or cats brought as kittens or puppies from the pet shop get dumped after a few short months, or once they get past their "cute" stage. For more info see:
www.goveg.com
www.alv.org.au
www.saynotoanimalsinpetshops.com
www.helpinganimals.com
Posted by lizey, Monday, 15 May 2006 6:07:25 PM
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"Please, don't anyone fool themselves into thinking that their meat had a happy life and a "happy death" because most likely it is not true"

Lizey, fair enough if you are emotionally engulfed, but clearly you are a city slicker who has no idea as to what happens in the country.

Yes lambs have their tails chopped off. Have you ever watched it happen and watched their reaction? My pet lamb never even blinked,
simply went back to chewing on some clover. Meantime human babies are circumcised without anesthetic. Go and ask some of your male friends if they remember the pain. Perhaps you should hug them for all that suffering :)

Have you ever been to a meatworks and seen how a stun gun works?
You are making comments about things that you simply don't understand, I am sorry to say. I know, you have a big heart, but really it would help if you are a little informed.

You defend dogs as pets, but the amount of neurotic dogs, locked up in city apartments and houses, whilst their owners go to work, bored sh*tless day after day, is far more cruel then a lamb or sheep grazing out in the pasture, which is a natural environment for them, doing what they naturally do.

Yes, sheep go on trucks. People go on trains and buses. So what?

Lizey I am sure that you have a caring heart, but don't throw all forms of farming into one barrel, for you are clearly out of your depth in understanding.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 15 May 2006 8:35:17 PM
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Lizey, it is very easy to write about the "horrors" that people have told you accompany the prosecution of the meat trade, but I fail to understand how you can at the same time support the enslavement of animals as pets.

Even calling them "companion animals" demonstrates a willingness to close your eyes to the reality of the unnatural life they are forced to lead. In exactly the same way, it would appear, that you accuse others of closing their eyes to the cruelty that you imagine "food animals" suffer.

If we take your advice, and "adopt a companion animal from a shelter and save his or her life because otherwise they might be put-down", are we not perpetuating this strange and barbaric practice? Surely it would be kinder to include keeping pets in the definition of cruelty to animals, and prosecute owners accordingly?

It is also distressing to see the exploitation of what we conveniently describe as "working animals" - sheepdogs, dogs-for-the-blind, organ grinders' monkeys etc. - in much the same way as slaves were put to work in the cotton fields.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is a clear case of double standards...

On second thoughts, I would.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 8:39:44 AM
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Realist asked:

>Do vegans live longer than normal people?

First, Realist, vegans ARE normal people. And yes, according to some studies (see http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/veglongevity.html), live longer than non-vegans. See also the Okinawan and Hunza people’s diets.

>Please show me some evidence to back your claim that we dont need meat.

Me!. Been vegetarian (no meat) for 13 years or so. Vegan for 2 years. Healthy as a bull elephant (they are also vegan). Not to mention the millions of other veg*ns around the world.

>Thanks to meat our brain has developed faster, why do you want to try and reverse evolution?

Fell for the meat industry ad did we? If eating meat develops brains how come lions don’t go to uni?

>There are some valid vegan arguments but the end of the day, Tofu sucks and meat is a vital part of our diet for Iron, proteins, vitamins & acids and the like.

Meat is not vital (see above). I gave my 105th blood donation last week – iron level is very good. Tofu is good – many different textures and takes the taste of what you’re cooking it with. But there is more to a vegan diet than tofu.

>Yes we dont need it to survive essentially, but we dont need the foods that you eat to survive either, ie we could survive off meat alone also.

Dead wrong, Realist. Meat has no fibre, or vitamin C, or folate, or antioxidants etc. Try it. Eat nothing but meat for a few weeks. You’ll save heaps on toilet paper but spend it all on antacids.

>It is shameful to hurt living things, but guess what we are a parasite that destroys the planets and by the time we do so, our species will have moved on to the next world.

I might even agree with you on that one.
Posted by MOS, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 4:19:53 PM
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Pericles said:

>It would be nice to think that we could address the inequities of human-to-human behaviour before going off about bunnies and piggies. Receptus ignavorum, as my Latin master would say, the coward's retreat. It is so much easier to show concern for widdle wabbits than tackle really serious problems.

I can do no better then quote Peter Singer, “[W]hen nonvegetarians say that “human problems come first” I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that they are doing for human beings that compels them to continue to support the wasteful, ruthless exploitation of farm animals.” – Animal Liberation, 1990

--

Yabby seems to be confusing sustainability (the ability of the meat industry to continue – to maintain a supply of animals) with the issue of cruelty. Farming humans would be sustainable but not ethical.

Also, I did not suggest we crop all the land being used for grazing. I said that the crops already being grown would be sufficient to feed the world if it was not being inefficiently fed to animals to produce meat.
Posted by MOS, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 4:21:44 PM
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Interesting quote, MOS, but far too deep for me. What exactly is he saying?

"...I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that [non-vegetarians] are doing for human beings that compels them to continue to support the wasteful, ruthless exploitation of farm animals."

What does Mr Singer mean by "doing for human beings"? Does this imply mis-treatment, if so, what kind? Or does he mean charity? Fellow-feeling? Kindness? Please explain.

And how does this behaviour "compel" other behaviours? What is the connection between what an individual "does for" other people and the way animals are treated?

What is the link between the two, do you think? Where is the compulsion?

Or is it just another mindless slogan, designed to sound really meaningful, but actually just a string of emotive words?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but you have to admit it is a pretty pathetic quote.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 4:47:11 PM
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Yabby, I wouldn't call myself a city slicker having lived in a sheep, dairy and beef farming area of Gippsland since age three. And living in this area of the country I continually see the type of cruelty that reaffirms my decision to be vegan. I see trucks crammed full of sheep and cattle without water in the heat (Far different to any experience I’ve had on a train/bus, and when I go on a train I usually know where I’m heading and am prepared for a different feeling than walking on land), farm animals in paddocks with no shade on 30+ degree days and sheep and cattle in saleyards: again with no shade and little water if any. I also see skinny cows and sheep in paddocks with almost no grass and cattle with their tails sliced off futilely trying to shoo the flies away.

No, I have never been to a meatworks but I must ask, have you? What I have seen though is videos and other evidence that shows that meat-workers take short-cuts and abuse animals when they think no-one is watching. In fact many abattoir workers receive injuries from still moving animals that are meant to be dead. In any case I think the killing of an innocent animal is wrong, just as the murder of a human is wrong.
Of course I do not agree with irresponsible pet owners leaving their animals in a boring environment all day and many people who “own” an animal are definitely not qualified to look after one.
I do believe though, that in a caring, interesting and loving household like mine, animals do not feel enslaved. Dogs and cats have been domesticated now for thousands of years, and while I question the actions of the first person to hold captive a wild wolf and try to “pet” him, our animals have now evolved into creatures that can hardly fend for them-selves in the wild and totally rely on us. If you are suggesting I release my rescued Chihuahua into the wild then I can hardly take you seriously.
Posted by lizey, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 6:11:42 PM
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Yabby, (continued) These days sheep are domesticated animals too and while a paddock is now the natural environment for them (Just as our homes and backyards have become the natural environment for our dogs), the premature death, cruel transport and painful mutilations (like mulesing for those raised for wool) are far from natural to any animal.
You also say you have a pet lamb (Hang on I thought you were against “enslaving” animals?). But have you ever wondered why your lamb didn’t flinch when his/her tail was sliced off? Most likely it was not because she/he didn’t find it painful but because sheep are prey animals and instinctively they try not to show pain as it may cause them to be singled out by a predator because they look weak and like an easy target. (As I look after 2 sheep of my own please don’t try to label me ignorant)

Pericles, as I stated above I believe that the lives dogs and cats now lead feels natural to them. As long as our “pets” have plenty of healthy food, room to play, plenty of exercise, a companion or two, water and some TLC I believe they are truly happy. But cats and dogs are not the only rescued animals I share my life with, I also have 2 sheep, 2 horses and 2 goats. I believe all these animals are happy to lead out there long lives in a large and shady paddock, something animals raised for food never get to do. I would hardly call going out of your way to provide for an animals every needs cruelty and I don’t see how you would call this abuse but condone slaughtering an animal for food. Adopting an animal from a shelter saves a life and luckily doesn’t support the people who continue to breed animals for “pets”
Posted by lizey, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 6:13:09 PM
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MOS, what is ethical or moral, is a question of subjective opinion. My point is that farming of animals does not need to be cruel, as is claimed.

I am the first to agree that parts of the planet should be preserved for other species to do their thing and for nature to take its course.

In a way, yes you are farmed lol. You live in a given environment,
like a country, you live by certain Govt rules, many leftie workers in fact call themselves wage slaves :) The Govt provides basic
healthcare and makes sure you don’t starve. That’s exactly what
good farmers do. Who eats us when we die, is basically irrelevant. We all get recycled, the worms will eat you too one day.

Lizey, go to places like India, Europe or Japan, to see how people cram onto public transport.. In fact if animals were loose on those trucks, they would tend to fall around the place.

Having some bad farmers does not mean that all farmers are bad.
Some husbands beat their wives, but they haven’t banned marriage yet. Good farmers will provide shelter, food and water for their livestock, its in their interest that the animals thrive after all. The worst offenders that I have seen in neglecting their animals are in fact hobby farmers.

Yes I have been in a meatworks and I never saw cruelty. I am also aware that you can remove an animals head and electrical
impulses can keep twitching those muscles for a long time after that. That does not mean that the animal is suffering.

If you think that killing all animals is wrong, I think you are putting emotion before reason and will in fact cause more suffering. Read up on what happened, when 29 reindeer were released on St Mathews island, as ecologists are well aware of. There were no predators to limit the population. It increased to 4000, double the sustainable population, eventually 99% died of starvation, a very cruel death. The same would happen to any herbivores, if they kept breeding unchecked.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 8:36:19 PM
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Hi again Yabby,
I'm not sure whether I would find being crammed into a train in India or Japan a pleasant experience but in any case people on public transport in these countries are not taken on long journeys across hundreds of kilometres against their will. While a human will know what’s going on and will feel relatively safe in a moving vehicle a cow might not feel the same way. But I’m sure the poor Jews who were actually crammed into the back of cattle trucks to be taken to places like Auschwitz didn’t find it much fun either.
While all farmers may not be cruel I am sure you would be surprised at how cruel some are. But even a naturally kind person will get frustrated and hit out at an animal if “it” is refusing to do something because “it” is scared and is wasting the farmer time and money.
But if you are buying meat you are supporting ALL farmers, including the horribly cruel ones. Is this really where you want your money to go?
I am somewhat surprised you have been to a meatworks. Even if you didn’t see cruelty when you went (By the way what is your idea of cruelty?), there is no guarantee that all slaughterhouses are “humane” places and have a killing floor separated from the place where the animals wait to be killed and have working stun guns that don’t subject animals to painful heart attacks (I gather the abattoir you went to must have had at least these if you didn’t see cruelty).
And I was talking about animals still kicking and breathing when they injure workers, not some nervous twitching after death. But even so do you want people to have to work in such a high risk job and have to kill for a living?
Posted by lizey22, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 9:18:12 PM
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(continued) I do believe any killing is wrong and though you seem to think your example of some idiotic ecologists will prove something, I don’t believe it does. You see, cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys and sheep are bred at an unnaturally high rate to provide flesh to meat-eaters. We see farm-animals (Except for the ones hidden in factory farms) everywhere because of this demand. If people gradually stop eating meat, less and less animals will be bred and they won’t somehow starve to death. There won’t be as many animals and even if somehow there were I believe there is nothing wrong with neutering an animal if anaesthesia is used. Farmed animals generally don’t breed by themselves and artificial insemination is often used to speed the breeding rate. So don’t worry if we all go vegan the world won’t be over run the animals we used to eat.
Posted by lizey22, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 9:18:56 PM
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Lizey, you are not meant to cheat on OLO, lol, but limit your words to 2 posts a day per topic, as I do. I could say much more, but I stick to the rules.

Nobody knows what cattle or sheep think about whilst on a truck,
So you cannot claim to know. As a kid it happened to me all the time, I just went along with the system.

You are clearly out of touch with the laws of nature. Any species will create far more potential individuals, then can ever survive.
Resources will limit the amount of individuals who do, that is basic
Darwinian evolution theory. Those ecologists are not fools at all,
they simply understand natures laws a lot better then you do.

Have a look at what happens to wild kangaroos in Australia, when there is a drought. They die by their tens of thousands, starving to death. As out of sight is out of mind, because you don’t see it, does not mean it isn’t happening. Get off your arse into the outback and have a look at the carcasses of those starving animals, it won’t happen in the suburb where you live.

Lizey you are trying to ignore millions of years of evolution.
Herbivores will breed far more then can ever survive, the fittest in that given environment will survive, the rest will die a miserable death. Mother nature does not give a sh*t.

Cruelty to me is as per Australian Oxford Dictionary, ie causing pain and suffering. If an animal is suffering and cannot be helped,
what would you do? Let it suffer until it dies or kill it to save it suffering?
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 10:21:29 PM
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Lizey, your defence of people keeping pets smacks of special pleading.

You suggest that cats and dogs now lead lives that are "natural" to them?

How natural is it to neuter them? How natural is it to keep them entrapped in a confined space until it is your pleasure to take them for a walk?

The fact that you have a "large and shady paddock" only means that your pets have a far more relaxed lifestyle than the two dogs kept by my next-door-neighbour in the heart of the city. But it still does not make it a normal animal experience, does it?

>>Adopting an animal from a shelter saves a life and luckily doesn’t support the people who continue to breed animals for “pets”<<

Well I'm sorry to break it to you, but this is exactly what it does.

If people did not keep pets, the pet population would rapidly decline, and there wouldn't be a need for the shelter in the first place, except in a wildlife protection capacity.

Your position is completely inconsistent. On the one hand, you are advocating that we no longer raise animals for food, because it is unnatural and cruel, but you are passionately in favour of enslaving them to a regime that is equally unnatural and cruel.

If you take a look at the slave-owning South, in the days before emancipation, you will find many a slave-owner using the same "we give them a comfortable enough life" arguments that you put forward. It sounds seductive, all that food and shelter, doesn't it?

But at least castration was relatively rare.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 9:51:34 AM
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Pericles, sorry if the quote from “Animal Liberation” by Peter Singer was a bit obscure. What I was trying to say (and I understand Singer to say) is that it’s hard to imagine anyone being so dedicated to solving human problems that they could not afford the minimal time or intellectual effort required to address the problem of “the wasteful, ruthless exploitation of farm animals" and take the simple step (the move toward veganism) to help remedy that problem.

And in my own experience, at rallies such as those against war, world hunger or our treatment of refugees etc., I often run into colleagues from Animal Lib and/or the Veg Society. We humans can address the wellbeing of all animals – human and nonhuman – concurrently.
Posted by MOS, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 5:25:35 PM
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Yabby, we agree. “Farming of animals does not need to be cruel”, but the majority of it today is cruel.

Let’s look at the subject of this article – pigs (though factory farming also affects chickens (meat and eggs) and, to a growing extent, cattle and sheep).

In Australia up to 62% of sows may be placed in sow stalls for part of their reproductive cycle and around 26% are housed in stalls for most of that time.

More than 90% of growing pigs are raised in confinement.

These figures are from the Voiceless report referred to in the article (available from http://www.voiceless.org.au/Get_Informed/Factory_Farming/Pig_Industry_Report.html).

If there is a move toward less cruel farming – hallelujah! That’s exactly what this article is calling for.

And in your reply to Lizey, you raise the old, ridiculous argument that the populations of farmed animals would spiral upward if we didn’t do the 'decent thing' and kill them for food. Crazy stuff, Yabby!! The move toward veganism will happen gradually. Decreased demand will cause producers to reduce breeding. Eventually, no demand will mean no producers. If it also means that domesticated cattle and sheep become virtually extinct – so be it.
Posted by MOS, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 5:28:00 PM
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Yabby, I hate to think that you believe eating meat is saving animals from a long and painful death. If we stop breeding animals at the unnatural rate we do for food and indeed as pets, the population will drop. And as the remaining animals would be our responsibility, they wouldn’t starve to death.
No, I don’t know what animals are thinking as they are trucked across hundreds of kilometres but I can guess that it is nothing good. When you see trucks with cattle in them drive past, the ones on the outer try to stick their heads out the side to get to some fresh air. I can only sympathise for the animals who can’t reach the sides at all.

I don’t see how the ecologists were not fools because if they were trying to conserve the species they released into the wild, they failed and let 99% die.

Yes, wild kangaroos do die in severe droughts but we as humans can prevent a large percentage of animal suffering so why don’t we? Does the fact that some people die a painful death from cancer justify murder? If I killed a young child, would you congratulate me and say I had saved him/her from a possible painful death by a disease?

“If an animal is suffering and cannot be helped, what would you do? Let it suffer until it dies or kill it to save it suffering?”
I would prefer to painlessly euthanize an animal than let one suffer, but killing animals for meat isn’t preventing a painful death but causing one. If we don’t purposely breed billions of animals there won’t be many and definitely not enough to have them die of starvation because of overpopulation.

Pericles, I am actually opposed to people breeding “pets” which is why I would never buy from a breeder or a pet-shop. But I adopted several my animals from a shelter because they were on “death row” and rescued others that were strays, unwanted or whose “owners” had died
Posted by lizey, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 6:24:24 PM
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(Pericles, continued)You compare people having a pet to having a slave and in many cases I agree, people simply buy an animal because they think it will be an entertaining “thing” to have. This is sometimes the same reason people have children, and often both child and animal become neglected when the person realizes that having a full-time responsibility is “too hard”. Sadly many pets are dumped for other people to come and rescue.

Obviously people don’t force their “pets” to do lots of work against their will, but sometimes the idea of “ownership” is still there, but I don’t believe I own my animals, just as I don’t own my other family-members.

No, adopting from a shelter doesn’t support people who continue to breed animals as pets! Buying from the pet-shop does, but with shelters all the animals are rescued or left there by uncaring owners: Not bred for profit!

I am not “passionately in favour" of keeping ‘pets’ at all, just in support of people saving lives, and if they are suitable for animal care, to adopt from a shelter instead of supporting cruel breeders and pet-shops. If people do this, the animal population will rapidly decrease, just as you (and I) would like to happen!

I do not believe neutering an animal is cruel if pain-killers are used! De-sexing actually decreases an animal’s risk of cancer and acts as contraception. People aren’t opposed to contraception in general, so why oppose a painless surgical procedure that acts as one for animals.

I believe that cows, sheep etc. as well as cats and dogs now naturally live in human care. Continual suffering and confinement isn’t natural but if people adequately care for, and don’t kill or hurt the animals in their care; I think it is as natural as it will get for us.

Even if you don’t agree with rescuing animals, there is still no excuse for you to eat meat. I think you will agree that the suffering the meat-industry causes is far worse than any caused by well-meaning people who adopt animals that will otherwise die.
Posted by lizey, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 6:26:23 PM
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MOS, personally I disagree with factory farming. But I don’t think that if you raise animals, in as close as possible to their natural
environment, that the majority of it is cruel. It really depends on the industry.

My understanding is that pigs are placed in farrowing crates during and after birth, as they have a habit of squashing their babies. I certainly believe that pigs run in shelters are fairly happy little critters. There was once a guy who ran a few thousand pigs on a hill in the open. They were bloodthirsty creatures lol, if he’d fallen out of his truck, they would have
devoured him on the spot. Pigs are actually very efficient killers in nature.

Lizey, you sound to me like you don’t have a clue as to what happens out in nature lol We don’t breed animals, they have sex
quite naturally, have babies etc, no need for humans to do anything.

Look at nature anywhere. You have herbivores and you have predator species which live on those herbivores. If there are not enough predators, the herbivores, which have evolved to have huge amounts of offspring, will simply die of starvation. Its basic evolution theory, sheesh..

What is so unnatural about animals having sex? They have urges just like you do :)

The population will drop in two ways. Either predators, ie wolves,
dingoes, lions, tigers, etc will rip the weakest to bits and eat them, or they will die of starvation if the food runs out. Go and look at what happens in Africa or anywhere else for that matter.

The ecologists weren’t trying to do anything, they were simply letting nature take is course. The only problem was that there were no predators on that island, so the result was mass suffering and starvation by the herbivores.

Ok so you admit that you would kill an animal, rather then let it suffer. I agree with you, only I use different words.

Lizey, animals have sex naturally. We don’t need to interfere to have a huge overpopulation problem
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 9:58:03 PM
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Let's assume for a moment that Lizey and MOS get their way, and the world goes vegan. Would they then insist that the animal kingdom follows suit? Would we be obliged to destroy all non-vegan animals, simply to satisfy Lizey and MOS' sense of fair play?

And might we then be faced with a movement that proclaims that flowers and vegetables are alive too, and why do we think we are so superior to a carrot that we should put it to death simply to - selfishly - keep ourselves alive at the carrot's expense?

Arguments such as these pay absolutely no attention to the results, their protagonists merely wallowing in the self-righteousness of the process.

Feel-good protesting is always very easy, while living with the consequences is quite hard. Ultra-Greens have the same impact; the world they would have us live in - mud-huts back o' Nimbin, as far as I can tell - is not only impractical, it is harsh. I know for a fact that my 80+ year-old mother wouldn't survive a winter without her central heating.

So enjoy your cuddly-bunny dreams about a meat-free future guys. It isn't going to get here in a hurry.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 18 May 2006 2:19:58 PM
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Pericles, with the duest of respect, the questions you put forward are daft.

We are simply trying to convince our fellow humans that what we are doing to nonhuman animals for food is cruel to the animals and bad for the world and us. Nonhuman carnivores generally do not have a choice or the intellectual and moral capacity to make such a choice. Personally, I have no intention of interfering with their lives.

As to plants – sure they’re alive but they do not have a central nervous system and do not feel pain. Even if they did, many more of them are being killed now to feed animals than would be killed in a vegan world. (It takes about 10kg of plant protein to produce 1kg of animal protein).

Simple facts:
• We don’t need meat, dairy or eggs to live healthy and happy lives
• The industries that supply these foods cause extreme harm to the animals and the environment
• Many more humans could be fed if we moved away from a meat based diet
Posted by MOS, Thursday, 18 May 2006 5:36:46 PM
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Yabby, yes animals naturally reproduce but humans take actions to make sure the demand for meat is met. For instance, artificial insemination is used, there is an uneven ratio of females to males and slow breeding animals are slaughtered.
Herbivores are not designed “to have huge amounts of offspring”. For instance you may have noticed that cows only naturally give birth to one or at most two babies at a time. But the mother cows constantly have their babies taken away and impregnated yet again.
Yes, it’s true; humans do take action which drastically speeds the breeding rate of the herbivorous animal’s we eat.

Pericles, It is unlikely we would have all meat-eating animals killed as we are against killing. I wouldn’t kill you because you eat meat so why should I kill a lion.
But lions do not farm the animals they kill and every prey animal has a chance (however slim) at surviving. They are not born with a death sentence. But a vegan world would reduce the animal suffering on the planet drastically.
And no, I don’t believe a campaign would be started against the eating of plants as they don’t have a nervous system, a brain or the ability to feel pain and fear.

No, a meat-free world isn’t going to happen in a hurry but it will happen, and good thing when it does.
Posted by lizey, Thursday, 18 May 2006 6:27:06 PM
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MOS, we don’t need cars, computers, TVs and lots of things, you are free to give up the lot if that is your choice. But if you want others to do the same, you need a lot better arguments then you have presented so far.

Some industries might cause harm, cars kill, people become couch potatoes from tv etc, that does not mean that we say they are evil. As I have shown, some forms of meat production are to the benefit of both animals and humans, so if it’s a win-win situation, I don’t see where there is a problem.

How many more billions of people do you want to add to the planet? Isn’t it time that all women had access to family planning,
so they are not forced to have far more kids then they actually want ?

Lizey, a lot of the time AI is used to solve problems of disease etc,
Which could be spread between states or countries. Those animals would happily reproduce by any means given a chance, as in nature.

Rabbits breed, well like rabbits lol, no mucking around with one
baby a year. They would overrun the place, as they have, given half a chance. The net result is that other species go extinct.

Now lets take an example. We’ll take a 1000 acre farm with
1000 sheep on it. We’ll let them do their own thing, tell the farmer to go away and do something else. What do you think would happen if nature took its course? Would there land up being far more suffering then exists now or less? Think about it
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 18 May 2006 8:52:26 PM
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A pig farmers view. There has been a lot of outrage over factory farmed pigs lately and its about time people knew how their food is being raised. I am a free range 'organic' pig farmer. Our biggest problem is that no one wants our product. Butcher after butcher tells us, 'we never get asked for it" or "there's no demand for free range". There is a huge big hole between the argument against factory farmed pigs and actually supporting the farmers that are doing 'the right thing'. It seems that people just accept what is on offer at the butchers, Woolworths, Coles etc. Does anyone actually ask for free range? or do they just not buy pork in protest?
Posted by pigfarmer, Sunday, 21 May 2006 12:27:39 PM
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Pigfarmer

I think you need a good publicist.

I buy free-range meat from a butcher's in my local community. This butcher is doing great business. However, there is very little information in the wider community. Free range chickens are now common and can even be purchased at the supermarket. Perhaps you should follow the methodology used to promote free range chickens.

I believe that the public can be persuaded; the flavour alone is far superior to meat produced by traditional farming methods and I prefer to eat food free of hormones and other additives - I don't think I am alone in this POV.

Butchers need to be persuaded - they can offer an alternative to supermarkets which would be good for their business rather than just offering the same as supermarkets.

Just a thought, Pigfarmer, hope to hear more from you.
Posted by Scout, Sunday, 21 May 2006 1:08:02 PM
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Good to hear from you, pigfarmer

www.savebabe.com may provide a way for you to help get the message out. I'm sure they'd like to hear from you. Can I suggest you look at http://www.savebabe.com/change.html which says (in part):

Can we create a better life for pigs in Australia?

The answer is yes!

The most powerful votes we lodge during our lives are not on election day – but each time we visit the supermarket and spend our hard earned dollars.

By buying a particular product we support and endorse the industry that created it.

The intensive pig industry justifies its practices through demand for their products. Therefore, if consumers demand humane alternatives and leave products that cause suffering on supermarket shelves - the industry will have to change.

Animals Australia launched savebabe.com to educate and inspire change. We believe that the vast majority of Australians if fully informed, will avoid whenever possible, making choices and purchases that cause suffering to animals.

Every time we make a cruelty-free purchase when we shop – we lodge our vote for a kinder world, for them, and for us.
Posted by MOS, Monday, 22 May 2006 10:18:22 AM
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Thank you MOS for supplying the info that I couldn't.

I hope Pigfarmer checks back.
Posted by Scout, Monday, 22 May 2006 10:45:45 AM
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I think that it is tremendous that someone of the stature of the Professor, and of Voiceless founder Brian Sherman, have brought the attention of the community to the terrible cruelty of factory farming. Some of the posts here I can only hope are facetious (particularly the first one), if not, then I hope there is really a "judgment day" awaiting you, along with all intensive farmers and those who participate in exporting live animals to overseas countries. When is enough enough in making a couple of extra dollars for a "product" - which is a living, feeling, sensitive animal? Pigs farmed in intensive operations effectively go insane, with stereotypical behaviours like bar biting and screaming. Cattle and sheep in feedlots live similarly totally barren lives. Transport, feedlot and saleyard conditions are atrocious, and where is the RSPCA? Protecting cats and dogs (many of whom do need it). Farm animals? Forget it. The fact is that the RSPCA has been instrumental in developing the voluntary "Codes of Practice" that allow these sadists to keep animals in these conditions. Tens of thousands of animals die on live export ships every year, and they are the "lucky" ones. The survivors face unspeakable cruelty in importing countries, as we saw on "Sixty Minutes" in February. And farmers? That privileged group in the community that constantly looks for handouts in between tax evasion schemes, and the same one that cries "extremist" when questions are raised about the welfare of their animals. "Shame" doesn't cut it where these people, and government who support them, are concerned. And I really don't think that "pets", or "companion animals" are part of a debate about intensive farming.
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 7:54:47 PM
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This post is added in order to note responses to this article.
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 7:57:09 PM
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The author appears to have a protected life, not been in the wilds of Australia, where pig hunting is rife.
Yabby, those dead kangaroos do not go to waste, the wild pig, crows & other scavengers get a feed.
By the numbers that go splat on our roads we still have our humans scooping up the joeys to rear on
Bottle of special formula.

There are great tracts of land in Australia called National Parks where all the wild animals roam free.
Yes, and the dingo’s and wild pigs as well as hungry birds invade the farms & urban yards, then you have a health problem,
not only from them fighting & killing your pets and farm animals but the diseases & worms they spread also.

Wonder how many bugs your vegetarians swallow? It is not kosher to eat bugs, worse than eating ham, to a Jew,
so they must spend a lot of time scrubbing the lettuce. Should they swallow a fly, they be damned indeed!
Posted by bluffitamy, Monday, 11 September 2006 10:54:39 AM
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Nicky
Good for You. Clearly Realist does not understand part of the reason why Australia meat is so popular overseas. Realist its called clean green. Unlike yourself some of these people who have been around for a few years longer than us understand the word disease. They also understand where it comes from and why. Lots of them prefer to supply their children with drug free and disease fee meat products. You can only do this by Free range Farming and creek feeding. Do you Realist know the difference between creek feeding and intensive feed lots? Perhaps if you did and lets just say for eg you were a parent you might prefer these products.
Tell me Realist do you know what foot and mouth is? How about the year it first came to Australia do you know how and why it got here?
Or the penalty back then for killing a beast and eating it and why? Lets not talk about the animals suffering realist because I can see you are not interested. Lets talk about being a good family member and buying disease free meat to your family. I see you have mentioned bird flue.Any idea where that comes from Realist?
In the mean time I just wanted to mention to you Nicky that the RSPCA in most States have MOU with DPI to inspect farm Animals.
So it is not really the RSPCA who check animals for live exports but DPI and AQIS. That is of course State and Federal Government staff. Keep up the good work Nicky and all the others.
Intensive Farming is an act of gross cruelty and injustice carried out under a mockery of legality by people as ill informed and removed from common deceny
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 27 October 2006 10:31:58 PM
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Mirko
Your work and efforts are a real credit to you. However we have told Brian Shermann and his daughters many times in order to make a real difference they must support alternatives and help find them to intensive farming. There is no point writing and telling everybody to support Free Range Farming and then refusing to do so themselves.

A program was put together to introduce some funds into this country which would allow many old an new regional people to get involved in a Free Range Farmers plan.

It would also allow for much needed capital to either re open or build new slaughter plants to stop long hauls in transport and Live Animal Exports.

We received a letter from voiceless which explained they could not work with us on this programe because it was to do also with building abattoirs and they did not want to get involved with that.

Thats silly. no wonder many brand these groups as extreme or hypocrits.
Animals Australia and Animal Liberation hold the same view.

"Well hello," unless we introduce more Free Range Farms and more abattoirs to service Free Range Farms Live Exports and Intensive Farming will not only just continue but multiply- which it is.

We tried to warn Brian not to get labelled extreme or a hypocrit.

Anybody serious about Animal Welfare must face the facts. Which are Farmers Grow animals to kill for meat.
There is no way around that. 96 percent of the public eat meat.
If you are reading this Brian here is the link for the project again.
Your a good person.
Dont get labelled and seen working with extreme groups Brian because I know you really want to make a difference.
Be your own Man
http://www.halakindmeats.com/submissions.html
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 28 October 2006 8:50:28 AM
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While I have no doubt of the overall sincerity of the previous correspondent, People Against Live Exports, I don't think that this forum is one for advertising, as looks very much to be the case here. Nor should it be used for the purpose of personal criticism of named individuals, in this case, Brian Sherman AM. It begins to look like the comment has "vested interests" attached if you follow the link. My apologies if that is not the case, but Mr Sherman and Voiceless have made enormous contributions to animal welfare in this country. If they choose not to fund organizations in the business of slaughtering animals, irrespective of their connections, for whatever reasons, it is their decision, and not one to be debated here.
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 28 October 2006 6:24:29 PM
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Nicky

Your apologies are excepted and yes you have got the wrong message. Not only that the whole concept is inncorrect. PALE does not have 'vetted interests' as you put in in any business especially the meat trade. PALE does have however concerns about most of the Animal Welfare organisations being extreme and branded extreme because this works against the animals instead of "for them"

Brian Shermann is a fantastic person and his two daughters. You wont get any argument about that. However he has not been involved in Animal Welfare for a great period of time. The only main stream group apart from this one is the RSPCA. We all know here has been a great deal of problems between RSPCA and say for example Animals Australia and Animal Liberation PETA to name a few.

I am not saying that they have not raised some very valid points either. What I am saying Nicky is the RSPCA are the Animal Welfare Authority in Australia and as such everybody needs to get behind them.

It is only by doing so the Animal Welfare groups together will succeed.
RSPCA do not oppose the slaughter of Animals but do encourage it is carried out humanely from paddock to plate.

It is in this regard we support them knowing full well there is no way we can tell people not to eat meat. Nor do I feel we have that right.

Free Range Farms co-jointly operated between live importers and Aussie Farmers is the only other alternative to live exports.

Think about it Brian is supporting Free Range Farms already. Yes? good. Ok then the fact is if we wish to divert intensive animals into Free Range and Feed lot animals into Free Range and stop Live Exports we have!to open more meat plants Nicky.

Its ridiculous to support Free Range Farming but not re opening the plants to stop them being sent alive.
If we want to stop live animal exports we have to all work together on the labour for abattoirs and the abattoirs themselves.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 28 October 2006 11:54:42 PM
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cont.
Nicky if we are to stop live animal exports we have to give the farmers a good alternative. The bottom line with Farmers really is the money. They have familes and bills too. To do that you have to look at the trade dollar and what drives live exports. You also have to entice the people overseas who are taking live animals to divert to slaughtering here. Its a monster of a job and somebody must address this. There is no point crying about live exports while putting your head in the sand refusing to help establish alternatives.

Nobody asked Brian to get involved with abattoirs Nicky.

What I am saying is the proposal for alternatives should be supported.

I have nothing against vegetarians Nicky. I am one myself. However that wont stop live exports.


Help find good alternatives for Farmers Nicky and you will help the Animals. Brians contacts are not doing him any good because they are bassed on vegetarian beliefs.

We do not have the right to tell others not to eat meat. We do have the right and should have the will to help the farmers get a better price if we re open abattoirs in Australia.

It is hypocritical to oppose live exports but not support the only clear alternative for live exports.

I do expect Brian however to support by way of letter or letters the idea of opening more plants here. As a business man surely he can see that the farmers must get a fair price for their stock.
When you open a post on a forum you must allow everybody to express their views. Brian must be aware of that.

Do think about it Brian because you have a opportunity to really make a difference for the Animals.
Sit Quietly and look how PETA and libbers are referred to by all media. Do you want that for yourself and family and also the animals. I am also making it clear I am writing on this post as a private member of the public.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/submissions.html
Mrs Antje Struthmann
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 29 October 2006 10:19:41 AM
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Nicky

Not to be debated here. I am afraid that is what a forum is for. I can only say again not just to Voiceless but anybody interested to stop the barbaric trade of live animals there is but one solution.
Find a way to open more abattoirs in Australia and make that viable for the farmers. Giving money away blindly to veg groups however well intended doesnt cut it and it never will. The problem goes far beyond people standing at warfs protesting. That has been done for thirty years pluss.
Whats really required is a TV and CD radio hit educating the public as to what is happening to the animals and why. If we dont reopen some abattoirs soon and start to turn it around we will never stop. I assume you have gone into damage control thinking I am having a go at Brian. That is the problem peoples egos get in the way of Animal Welfare. You thought you were taking a cheap shot at me when you said people with" vetted interests" Well Nicky I have got big shoulders you can call me whatever you like if I think it will help the animals. However lets look at the counter argument shall we? Lets just say I knew were interested in opening abattiors in Australia just for money. I put it to you if you were a cow or a sheep and you had a choice of going to a abattoir in Australia that I owned where they do have pre stunning and some animal welfare laws or going on a death ship as we all know them to countries with none you might prefer to come to my abattoir.
Dont you think?
If you dont compete in the real world and get practicle all the tears you have wont be enough. You can be angry if you wish. You can shoot the messanger as well thats ok.
Just read this in a few years time with an open mind.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 30 October 2006 5:52:16 AM
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Here is a message from two professional animal welfare organisations that may interest most on this thread:

Yesterday - Animals Australia, in conjunction with Sydney based animal protection organisation Voiceless, The Berg Family Foundation and Hunter Hall International Ltd, launched the largest ever national advertising campaign to highlight the suffering of pigs in factory farms. This unique alliance was formed knowing that the cruel pork industry has prospered through consumer ignorance, and that due to legal exemptions based on 'commercial considerations', pigs are being subjected to practices and procedures that would be classed as cruelty offences if they were committed against the family dog or cat. In their ability to suffer, pigs are no different to the animals who have become our companions.

At the same time, Animals Australia has launched Make the Pro Pig Pledge!, a nation-wide initiative for caring consumers. We are asking all Australians who believe that these highly sensitive and intelligent animals deserve protection from acts of cruelty to make the Pro Pig Pledge - We'll update the tally of Pro Pig Pledges received on our savebabe website each week to show Pledgers - and the pork industry! - how many compassionate Australians are supporting our campaign.

Make the Pro Pig Pledge
http://www.savebabe.com/pledge.html
Posted by PF, Monday, 30 October 2006 5:15:19 PM
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Mos

reply from your earlier post.[If it wasnt so serious it would be funny]

Farmers will tell them there is no point promoting Free Range Meats if you refuse to support Free Range Farmers. Does that make sense to anybody yet?
This was sent by a Farmer. It tells the story.
"A letter From A Free Range Farmer">

This is a paragraph from an email I got from Animals Australia. I had asked them to support the farmers doing the right thing.

"their reply'"

“Thankyou for your e-mail, and for your support of the SaveBabe.com campaign. We do get asked on occasion why we don't directly promote free range and organic pig farming, and there are a couple of reasons for this. Firstly, we do have a large membership, many of whom are vegetarian, and also around forty member society organisations, and whilst we ask that consumers demand that alternative (ie more welfare-friendly) products be provided, as an animal welfare organisation we cannot promote a product that causes any suffering to animals. Whislt we recognise of course that organic and free range is a much more humane option than factory farms, issues such as transportation, slaughter etc. inherently does cause stress and possibly pain and it's not something that we can promote because of this. Even if we were to promote certain farms or labels, we do not have the resources to inspect or audit properies (like the RSPCA does) and therefor it would be hard to officially endorse them on an ongoing basis because of this.”


Farmers comments
Their ideal is out of touch with reality. We are meant to eat meat. No point trying to deny it and as long as that is their ultimate aim, to make us all vegetarian, they will not have my full support.

"quite rightly too" We need to actually promote and support the farmers doing to right thing not shun them"

Remember. No Free Range farmers> Not much sense in promting Free Range meat.

Antje Struthmann
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 30 October 2006 7:09:03 PM
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I have to confess that I am a little bewildered by the hostility to my comments from "People against Live Exports". I followed the link provided, which took me to a submission, to the Senate, as I understand it, which seemed largely about promoting a chain of privately owned slaughterhouses. As for "giving" the farmers anything, my view is that they are amongst the highly privileged in society, receiving government handouts and tax relief that other businesses only dream of. Other businesses have to be competitive within their environments without such benefits, but within the ethical constraints that society expects. What society does not expect is animal cruelty such as intensive pig and chicken farming, and sending live animals to face appallingly cruel deaths half a world away, and for that trade to be supported and subsidized by a government complicit in the cruelty because so many politicians have farming interests.Being paranoid about whether or not the various groups who continue to fight that cruelty are vegetarian, vegan or not seems supremely irrelevant (unless you own a chain of slaughterhouses or farming interests, of course). Farmers are primarily motivated by greed. The only way live exports will stop is when the government is forced to stop them.
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 30 October 2006 7:22:49 PM
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Animals Australia and Voiceless are to be commended for this latest initiative.

Organisations willing to put aside their own beliefs in vegetarianism or whatever, in the best interest of animal welfare. People showing how truly committed they are to their cause.

Not just talk, fancifull ideas, jealousy and condemnation of others.

Lets get behind them, not try and hinder their great work.

Nicky - an all too common occurance I am afraid :)
Posted by PF, Tuesday, 31 October 2006 6:33:34 AM
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Nicky.
If putting up a debate regarding the vegetarian’s views verses the main stream views of the majority of the public is aggressive to you -I would say you’re rather unreasonable.

Nobody loves animal more than I.

I have many friends and family who are members of Animals Australia.

If you want an example of people working together you have seen the proposal to the Animal Welfare Senate Enquiry.

You boo hood it yet it shows the Australian Federation Of Islamic council RSPCA QLD People Against Live exports the Humane Society International NSW and the petition supported by AMIEU Nationally all working for the common goal of improving animal welfare.


The public mainly are meat eaters not vegetarians.

You’re very naive to think the Government will ban live Exports unless! A Commercial alternative is put up so they can consider adopting it as a policy with a view of phasing out the cruel live export trade

Bagging the farmers won’t help. Befriending the farmers and helping them find good viable alternatives to live export agents and re opening abattoirs here in Australia will.

These are the facts .-Commercial hard nosed real business men re opening meat plants is the animals only saviour to live exports.
Gee does that sound aggressive.

I meant it to be a plea of help for the animals.

Live exports has increased to an alarming rate. If we don’t start to divert these animals to plants in Australia for slaughter right now opening more abattoirs here millions more animals will suffer.

This is the real world and we have to come up with real solutions to the problem.
Not tell people you cant help to get these abattoirs up and running because you might loose a few vegetarian members.

Think about it while eating your lettuce leaf.

Antje Struthman
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 31 October 2006 8:42:17 AM
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Isnt this thread about pigs?

I haven’t heard of too many pigs going overseas as live exports? Halal pork! That would go down well in the Muslim community :)

You seem stuck in the past Antje, or is just sour grapes at Animals Australia, and Voiceless for refusing to support your organisation? They have taken a brave step here and if you were fair dinkum about stopping intensive farming you would swallow your pride and get right behind them, not condemn them on a public forum. Shame on you.

“Dont get labelled and seen working with extreme groups Brian because I know you really want to make a difference”

Well, he's made that statement hasn't he? :)) Loud and clear.
Posted by PF, Tuesday, 31 October 2006 6:17:41 PM
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PF, you are absolutely correct; this thread began with Mirko Bagaric's wonderful article about the pig industry. The initiative of Animals Australia and Voiceless deserves the highest commendation, and promoting slaughterhouses should not be part of the business of any animal welfare organization. Members of these groups look to peak organizations like AA for leadership in stamping out cruelty. Antje, if I were a sheep, a cow or a pig, I wouldn't choose to go to any slaughterhouse, yours or anyone else's; transport, yarding and eventual slaughter MUST be terrifying and painful ordeals for all animals. Linda McCartney said that "if slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian". How right she was. And there is absolutely no reason to believe that we were "meant" to eat meat, or need it for nutrition; I have managed poerfectly well without it for years, for no reason other than the ethics of breeding baby animals only to drag them off to slaughter after their pitifully short, miserable lives, filled with God knows what mutilations, drugs and chemicals for growth to maximize their profitability..
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 31 October 2006 7:13:18 PM
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Nicky
Again- I support organisations working to help animals.
The difference being your arguments is everybody must turn vegetarian.
That is silly and arrogant. Nobody has the right to tell others what to eat. It will never work.

PF who wrote complaining bitterly about Animals Australia?

Bridget Bardott supported the project I sent you Nicky and there is no greater Animal Lover.

She understood like a few other vegetarians reopening more plants in Australia was the only way.

She was delighted with the input of AFIC

If all Animal Welfare Groups where active in supporting this proposal along with AVA and RSPCA and it was presented to the Government with a view for policy to promote co joint abattoirs and farms with live animal importers and Australian Grass root Farmers live exports would faze out.
.
I suggest you ask Brian or Glenyce to come on this public forum and debate this Nicky .for the animal’s sake

Brian seems like a good man but needs to hear the counter argument.

Kosha is the most cruel slaughter of all and Melbourne is the hub of it.

I am not just going to stick to talking about pigs.

All animals count to me.
.
I shuddered when on 60 Minutes the PETA lady said she was going to have her body parts and skin kept after she died and have it put on a BBQ.
. As thousands of people who had been otherwise sympathetic to the plight of the animals rushed to switch their TV to another channel I sat there and cried for the lost chance to for the poor animals.

Extreme does not work. Main Stream and getting behind opening abattoirs will.

Call me commercial any day by comparison. You cant "force!" the world into "vegetarianism" you can only improve the dreadful conditions.
Lets Ban Live Animal Exports by slaughtering here disposing of our Nations Greatest Shame.

By making pigs free Range and all the Animals . Telling people not to eat meat wont do it.

A Nation Can be judged by the Way It Treats Its Animals
Gandhi
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 31 October 2006 8:15:25 PM
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Well Nicky, sweet and innocent as you sound, you have to get your
mind around reality. The worms will even chew up your carcass,
when you die. We all get recycled, no matter what our species.

In some ways, animals actually get it even easier then us humans.
We are not allowed to be euthanased by law. We sometimes have
to suffer slow, agonising deaths, until nature takes its course.
If a doctor tries to intervene, he can be jailed.

Frankly, who eats me when I die, I really don't care, I won't be
around to know. Secondly, I hope somebody takes me to the vet
when the time comes :)
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 31 October 2006 8:53:50 PM
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First to Yabby ... (of course I am sweet and innocent)it is likely that, barring accidents, you will have an element of choice about how, and even possibly when, you die, and are likely to live to the age that nature intended rather than being overfed in intensive conditions, and hauled off to slaughter the minute you reach a saleable weight. Beyond that, like you, I don't care much what happens to my remains.
Back to People Against Live Exports, certainly I agree with you about ending the atrocity that is the live export trade, but by placing yourself/ves so VERY far along the pro-slaughter scale, you also alientate a large sector of the community. In order to ban the live export trade, you do not have to so actively promote slaughterhouses and all that goes with them, irrespective of the level of commercial interest you might have in whatever this/these enterprise/a is/are.
You may not have looked at the new Voiceless/Animals Australia campaign - it is about urging people to demand free-range pork products, thereby removing the demand for factory farmed pork, ham, bacon, etc; that is hardly attempring to force vegetarianism upon the community, I think it is quite a mainstream approach which recognizes preferences of which they may not approve, or may not ensorse, but rather they recognize them as the lesser of the worst evils.
Goodnight everyone
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 31 October 2006 10:18:39 PM
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"you will have an element of choice about how, and even possibly when, you die,"

Actually nope Nicky, sh#t just happens to the best of us :)

See life as a lucky dip. Billions of sperms were washed down
the toilet of history, you won the lottery, you survived and
they died. A millions to one chance!

Fact is, Darwin was right, far more have the potential for
life, then can ever survive. Only so many can squeeze onto
the planet at one time, be they human or other species. Thats
the reality.

So the reality of the veggie story is that it makes you feel
good, but thats about it.... All the rest is based on
watching too many Holywood movies and a rose coloured
worldview, far from reality.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 31 October 2006 10:34:16 PM
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Nicky

Welcome to Yabbies World of Worms

You do need to be aware of the privacy act

Yabb,s she’s probably pretty as well.” Eat your heart out.

She has something else too Yabby “the will to make a difference”

Nicky, our old mate Yabby is working on a web page to educate the public, about extreme groups and promote live exporters.

So you will need a hard case like me on side to argue slaughtering here

Yes I do Nicky-

I do have to get ‘that involved’ simply because nobody else will.

I know you want to talk about pigs.

To remove pigs from intensive farming you require people with funds willing to contribute in a major way creating Free Range Pig Farms.

You need to ensure supply of a product before you promote it

*You will find those people overseas.

*You require farmers prepared to talk with them so getting farmers off side isn’t a good idea.”

This must be your Q PF

*You need a chain of vegetarian fast food stores. Ask somebody like Dick Smith to get ‘onboard’ with you...

*Park yourself between McDonalds and Hungry Jack’s and don’t be surprised when they come out with their own vegetarian burgers to compete with you.

*Put some nice pictures up in the drive through educating the public about how your opposition next door get their product. Feature thanking them for their contribution towards animal welfare buy choosing your stores

*Wrap it up with a few good jokes on the bags.

If you do it right they will carry those thoughts with them when they do their shopping at the super market.

Why not go the “whole hog” and call it “Glenyce,s fast foods.”

Sorry Nicky, it’s just my humour. Most people get used to it eventually.

You watch our old Yabby now, he does tell a few Pokies from time to time ah Yab

Yabby try to be on your best behaviour and a gentleman OK

Nicky best wishes to you and “ all” in their endeavours to improve animal welfare

Ban "Intensive" Farms
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 10:34:03 AM
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My queue is it? OK then …

It’s a pleasant change to see you being up front with your vegetarian agenda. At least Glenyce is honest about it.

Why, why ,why do we need investors from overseas to set up free range farms??

Educating people about how their food is farmed will create the demand for free range pork, and that demand is the only incentive needed to get our own farmers into free range production.

Up till now, it has only been the farmers dedicated to the welfare of their animals that have converted to free range. Create consumer awareness and the demand will soon come. Free range pork will not just be seen as a boutique style item to offer customers (at inflated prices) by butchers, they will start to realize they have no choice but to sell it.

There is a new label in the supermarkets and no doubt we will hear more as xmas gets closer. ‘Bred Free Range’ it is not a true free range pig, but a much more humane alternative than intensive farmed. It is owned by the largest smallgoods producer in the country so I am a little skeptical, but at least it is a start.

If the AA and Voiceless campaign is the success I think it will be, there will be more free range piggeries popping up in no time.

It’s a shame for us, that your actions , by publishing private personal emails, writing letters to them in regard to us without our knowledge, has damaged our relationship with those organizations and thus damaged a free range farmer in the process.
Posted by PF, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 1:19:02 PM
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http://www.livexports.com/freerangefarmerssupportgroup/

Drive through Free Range and Vegetarian outlets was something I suggested to Nicky.

It’s no secret that I would like to see them.

I feel it would be the best form of advertising and opportunity to educate the public.

Imagine if this campaign were running permanently, how many ordinary every day people would really start to think about what they purchase.

If alternative meats and products, vegetarian if you like, were eventually returning more than let’s say animal products then good for share holders.

It’s healthier for the public and better for Animal Welfare.

John Howard and his Government have launched an attack on obesity so perhaps they might support it in some way if presented properly.

The only difference is our approach. I believe you must do things in order and one step at a time.

There is no point telling people to insist on something they cant access.

Why not put it to Woolworths or Coles and other major outlets to put the funds into extending these intensive farms into Free Range.

If its put as a business arrangement with solid contracts for the farmers there is no reason these companies can not be involved in farming as well.

After all they have a responsibility to ensure the product they sell is humane

We all saw the pork industry saying they could not afford the animal welfare improvements?

Didn’t know Amanda was broke but still.

Not too many farmers here have a few spare million lying around to set up you would have seen on landline.

That’s why? Overseas.

PF Read that letter again.

You cant demand free range supplies of anything throughout the country if there are none.

Also you cant demand the banning of live exports unless you have a alternative arrangements.

Those arrangements need to be put in place first with overseas live animal importers.

Just like the Free Range Farmers must be openly supported by Animal Groups and put into place.

After all that is why you wrote and everybody agreed with you and still do do.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 9:49:21 PM
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Good evening, everyone. Some more interesting posts I see. I'm not sure what the mention of publishing personal emails is about (unless it is the Animals Australia one?) so I'll stay right out of that one. Did someone - Antje(?) - say earlier that the RSPCA inspectors are funded by Departments of Primary Industry in the different states? That seems like a clear conflict of interest to me. The RSPCA, in my experience, is sometimes okay about cats and dogs, but pretty hopeless about any other animals (except in Queensland, from what I've read).I think it would be an EXCELLENT idea to have veg. fast food outlets, especially on the doorsteps of KFC, Hungry Jacks, McDonalds and those like them. Persuading the big supermarkets about free-range "produce" is a task that I think can only be effectively managed with a campaign such as the Animals Australia one. Coles Supermarkets usually have at their checkouts a form upon which you can write what you like/dislike about their stores; if everyone who shops there used them for this, it would be a great start. It's important to educate the consumer to do this, so let's all put aside our differences and support this. We could write to the magazines who have refused the campaign and tell them why we are boycotting their magazines as well.
As far as pig farmers having to make changes to accommodate animal welfare improvements, they have got away with gross animal abuse for far too long, I say. If they cannot, or will not, implement REAL improvements (i.e. NO sow stalls or farrowing crates AT ALL), they should be put out of business, and hopefully, they will be. I have absolutely no sympathy for farmers whose cruelty has only been exposed by the efforts of Animals Australia, Animal Liberation and PETA.
Yabby, here was I thinking that you were sweet and innocent too - I hope it's not true what People Against Live Exports have said about you above.
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 11:09:51 PM
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"If alternative meats and products, vegetarian if you like, were eventually returning more than let’s say animal products then good for share holders."

Let me see if I have this right here. You'd rather that people
eat veggie burgers then meat burgers. In others words, you are
actually a vegetarian and only tolerate us meat producers and
eaters, as you accept the reality of the day, which you accept
that you cannot change for now.

Why should any meat producing farmer trust you, if by the sound
of things, you might well shaft them in the future?

Just asking :)
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 11:19:24 PM
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Hi Yabby
I do not condemn people for eating meat; it is not my place to dictate to family, friends, colleagues etc. I guess I hope that they will eventually come to realize primarily the appalling cruelty involved in farming animals and secondly, the health risks to which they are exposing themselves. Bowel cancer, heart/coronary artery disease, all largely caused by the conscious choices people make to have the rotting flesh of dead animals decaying further in their bodies. More often than not, they are also ingesting growth hormones and substantial levels of anti-biotics as well. Enjoy the rest of your evening (and think about your next meat burger - you would be amazed at the parts of animals that find their way into them) -
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 1 November 2006 11:35:22 PM
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"Not too many farmers here have a few spare million lying around to set up you would have seen on landline."

You are talking about setting up intensive farms. Free range pig farms need little more resources than what are already available on existing farms.

Pasture, shelter, the use of exisiting sheep or cattle yards? Hardly need millions for that sort of setup now do you? All we need is the demand for the product. And yes, that is the ideal way to go about getting more free range farmers to come on line. Having the product first, and then trying to sell it is a much harder task. Doing the other way around will secure good prices for the farmer too. Even farmers starting from scratch would be turning out porkers within 12 months. If they started with bought in weaners, half that time.

The answer is there in front of you. Get behind the Pro Pig campaign and stop trying to throw up road blocks or we might have to pay closer attention to Yabbies observation - can any meat producer really trust you:)
Posted by PF, Thursday, 2 November 2006 9:51:32 AM
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Well Nicky, I've seen my share of anemic looking vegetarians,
so am not so convinced of your arguments. In the end, something
is going to kill you. I have no plans to become 95, crapping in
my pants, with alzheimers. Better a good old heart attack a bit
younger :)

What you forget of course, is that there are also farm animals who
lead happy and contented lives, are not fed antibiotics or hormones,
don't starve in drought like wild animals and are protected from
predators. I doubt if they really care who eats them when they die,
as I don't either. You are free to not eat them for your own reasons,
but its certainly not for the benefit of those animals.

Perhaps it just makes you feel good, thinking that you are being
so caring and altruistic :)
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 2 November 2006 10:10:29 AM
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“All we need is the demand for the product.”

Exactly right, PF!
I can get free range beef or chicken and eggs, but I have NOT been able to find free-range pork in my area. I have tried several supermarkets and butchers.
I ALWAYS ask why they don’t sell free range meat, esp. pork, and the answer I usually get is: There is not enough demand for it because it’s too expensive. People choose the cheaper options.
Coles said they had more free-range meat in the past (now they only have chicken), but because it is more expensive people leave it on the shelves, then it gets past the use-by date and they have to dispose of it.
They do have some Bred-free ham, that’s all. Woollies and other supermarkets have NOTHING free-range.
I will keep asking for it- I simply haven’t eaten pork in a long time. (I did sign that pork pledge.)

I haven't asked, but perhaps if only a few people are interested in buying free range meat, it could be done on order. They probably won't bother, but if would be good if this service was available.

Perhaps writing something in the local paper from time to time might make other people demand free range produce.
Since I live in an area with lots of young families I would want to focus mostly on the health problems of eating factory meat. I will need to collect some facts such as: what really goes into the animal (antibiotics, growth hormones?). What does it do to the human body (esp. children’s' bodies)?

Any info you or anyone has on this would be very welcome- or I'll search Google.

When people realise the health benefits of free range and the dangers of feeding their children chemicals, then the price of the meat may become less of an obstacle. I prefer to eat free range meat 3 to 4 times a week rather than battery-farmed meat every day.
Posted by Celivia, Thursday, 2 November 2006 12:57:36 PM
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Nicky, I agree that vegetarianism should be a personal decision and, like religions, should not be pushed upon people.
I was a vegetarian for about ten years, but started eating meat again because I just always felt something was missing.
I eat meat about 4x a week; there is so much more food to enjoy and I was getting sick of all the mountains of beans and veggies.
There is no difference in my state of health since the change.

There is some evidence that vegetarians don’t live longer than meat-eating people. If they do, then only for around one year.
There are other factors that make it look like vegetarians live longer.

Usually, for example, vegetarians are very health conscious and therefore look after their health better generally, such as not smoking, not drinking much, exercising etc. Groups of very health conscious non-vegetarians have the same live span as vegetarians.

I know that there are also articles that do claim vegetarians live longer, so I suppose it is debatable how valid all these studies are, but I do see the logic that vegetarians are usually being more health conscious and more often than not, come from higher socio-economic backgrounds than non-health conscious people.

The indigenous people of the world enjoyed longevity as meat eaters.
They had a balanced diet of fruits, vegetables, and meat.
Australian aboriginals started to suffer major health problems only after colonalisation with the introduction of typical Western foods such as sugar, alcohol, fatty and refined foods etc.

I think our diets are personal and health conscious people will decide to eat what suits them best :)
Posted by Celivia, Thursday, 2 November 2006 1:05:21 PM
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Nicky


What problems regarding RSPCA QLD? We have “the most wonderful CEO.” See web site

Scroll to live exports. See pale > email address.

Happy to answer all questions

http://www.rspcaqld.org.au/

I agree AA AL and PETA have been the “only ones” to expose cruelty.

I also agree about working together

That’s been rejected and not from this side.

The fundamental difference is “I believe” you have to help the farmers find alternatives.

Your side rejects that saying its still killing animals.

Black listing the only organisation trying to achieve that is unhelpful.

IF you look here at all three NFP organisations working together
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

There is great misunderstanding regarding this project. Purposely misleading rumours

. Its not commercial. Its a proposal from three separate NFP organisation working together including RSPCA QLD to improve animal welfare.

Its shameful especially that nobody has acknowledged the enormous amount of hours put in by AFIC.

Verna Simpson of the Humane Society International stands alone in her support and foresight along with Ticky of 4 corners and Bridget Bardott. RSPCA QLD

http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

http://www.livexports.com/davidwoodsreport.html

http://www.livexports.com/hughwirth.html

http://www.livexports.com/cowgun.html

Its shunned by AA AL PETA Voiceless and Andrew Bartlett?. We have a new President of RSPCA and WSPA

Perhaps it really is time for a new start and working all together.


Now I must respond to our resident pet rat Yabby. We are actually rather fond of him but don’t tell him that.

Oh Yabby.

But alas! you have caught me out at last!

I see potential in Halal farms and vegetables. AFIC made special mention of that in their submission.

Down the track, of course, if there is money, in it, to grow and produce, alternative products providing outlets for vegetarians then why not.

You can Grow Vegetables and have livestock as well you know Yabby.

Remember Yabby the farmers “still owns the farms” so it’s going to be their descion.

‘Their gain’ too if in years to come there’s more from alternative meat products than animals.

Good luck to the Australian Farmers.

Now it’s your turn to fess up and confess your sins to Nick
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 2 November 2006 1:25:15 PM
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Hi Celivia

Given the intensive conditions pigs are raised under it is necessary fo those growers to use antibiotics to combat disease that is so easily spread. Pigs have in-feed antibiotics from when they can first eat until just before slaughter (to allow for withholding periods)
They are fed synthetic amino acids because they cannot obtain them from an unnatural grain diet alone.

Paylean is a drug used to stop porkers laying down fat.

Stresnil is a sedative used to stop fighting and make sows easier to handle. (room to run away from confrontation would work too :) ) The name of this product is a true indication of the problem. There is only a 6 hour withholding period for this drug.

In feed dewormers are used routinely. Some are injected.

There are also routine treatments for mange and lice with pesticides.

They would have us believe though that there are no residues left in pork raised this way. mmmmm

Add to that the stressful conditions and the filth that a lot of these animals are forced to live in. Remember that yummy crackling is actually the pigs skin just minus the hair ..

Just having pigs in a stress free environment does so much for their health even if people arent worried about the drugs fed to them.

Imagine the stress a pig, that has been raised under artificial light its entire life, goes through when it is suddenly forced onto the back of a truck with unknown pigs in broad daylight. Probably the first time it has seen the sun. No wonder some of them just die of heart failure. They blame that on a genetic fault though.
Posted by PF, Thursday, 2 November 2006 3:25:22 PM
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Ok let me get this straight here:

"*You need a chain of vegetarian fast food stores. Ask somebody like Dick Smith to get ‘onboard’ with you...
*Put some nice pictures up in the drive through educating the public about how your opposition next door get their product. Feature thanking them for their contribution towards animal welfare buy choosing your stores"

I can just see it all now: One one side of the road there will be
"Yabby's Tender and Juicy Happy Lamburgers".

On the other side will be "Gold Coast Old Ducks El Cheapo Veggie
Burgers"

What horrible things do you plan to say about my product, in
order to try and steal my contented and satisfied customers? :)
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 3 November 2006 12:00:00 AM
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Yabby

Thats the best part- nothing.

I guess that would be up to Nicky Yabbs.

I am sure she would think of something.

They say a picture tells a thousand words.

Thanks For The Name Yabbys Happy Lamb Burgers- funny as.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 3 November 2006 1:10:26 AM
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We stil seem to be labouring under the "your side and my side" approach, and what appears to be some sort of feud between the People Against Live Exports, verus all the other groups. And we keep returning to this slaughterhouse debate, and its potential as a solution to ending the live export trade. People Against Live Exports, I went to the links provided, and am a little concerned that the writer of the "HKM Economic Report" seems to have failed to acknowledge his/her sources. There is at least one paragraph that I have read elsewhere, written by someone else; I can't remember by whom now. It is usual to properly reference such documents.
I'm also curious about where the start-up funding for this enterprise has come from, and especially how many such farms are operating through People Against Live Exports, and how many abattoirs.
I don't think that I said that there are problems with the RSPCA in Queensland - what I said was that there are problems everywhere BUT in Queensland - Queensland is what RSPCA state branches should be like. And once again, we are digressing from what this thread should be about - helping the pigs.
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 3 November 2006 11:10:53 PM
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Nicky
I must apoligise to you. I misread your email regading RSPCA QLD
Also left the Y off your name when speaking to Yabby. Its very good of you to come on the forum and discuss ways of highlighting the cruelty to our animals.

You asked me about emails before.I suppose you thought its rude of me not to reply.

I had hoped to catch up with others before I answered. That hasnt been possible. I dont want you to think I am purposely ignoring you either so I will answer as best I at my own personal observation.

I am only aware of an email sent by a Free Range Farmer that was a strong complaint that Free Range Farmers were not supported on the basis that they were still killing animals. Is that the one you mean?.

I was informed in the car park tonight that had been reversed.

What fantastic news. Free Range Farmers are the real heros and should be publicly acknowledged. every child in Australia should know the difference bewteen Free range and intensive.

Or perhaps you have heard of the emails that circulated for years warning people not to talk with anybody from the people I support PALE.That has been a vicious campaign against dedicated people.

I would love to see a Farmers Face on the pack of a free range Product. It would have far more effect on the public . Better than any new label. Kids would say mummy buy Farmer Browns products or Miss Piggys as they became more educated.

Nicky dont feel gagged

Speak your mind. I dont bite and I respect others ideas towards improving conditions for our animals.

You certainly have gained a few peoples respect by your comments and its clear you have the potential to be a leader yourself.

You also have some very good information a few posts up from a real farmer.
Its great to see everybody putting in.

Brian should be proud of his input but remember we must get behind our Free range Farmers one hundred percent.

Good luck all
Antje Struthmann.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 3 November 2006 11:27:22 PM
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Nicky

Well that litte smoke screen was a feeble attempt to side step your question;

"I'm also curious about where the start-up funding for this enterprise has come from, and especially how many such farms are operating through People Against Live Exports, and how many abattoirs."

As far as I can tell the answer is simply none.

I would be happy to be proved wrong, but I dont thinks so :)

Let me sort out 'that email' issue for you once and for all. It was written by me and sent privately to another person. It was meant to be a person to person conversation. PALE now have it and post it constantly on this forum in an attempt to discredit AA. They also claim that I asked them to post it - a lie. They also wrote letters to AA and Voicless in regard to that same email and my farm. Anyway, it is an old email and the current Pro Pig campaign is absolute proof of AA and Voiceless commitment to end intensive pig farming. I am so grateful to them for putting aside vegetarian issues and supporting free range farmers.
Posted by PF, Saturday, 4 November 2006 6:34:50 AM
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Nicky
[Said] We seem to be discussing the difference between all other groups and pale]

Gee Nicky I thought I had made most about opening vegetarian fast foods and educating people about vegetarian diets.

You said yourself you thought the fast food chain being included was an "excellent" idea.

*Ok I have been back. There are five posts where I am discusing promoting vegetarian food outlets and five on promoting Free Range Farmers and supporting the re opening of abattoirs.

Thats 50 50 Nicky. So I dont know how you can say I have not contributed to the vegetarian angle. In fact I have bent over backwards to do so.

However as you have raised it I will try to answer your question.

Yes there is a difference in the two groups.

I am in support of the main stream RSPCA belief.

RSPCA dont oppose people eating meat. They recommend animals are slaughtered as close to their origin as possible.

That is why I agree with the reopening of Abattoirs to stop Live Exports.

Not much point Nicky in protesting about Live Exports then oposing the abattoirs to re open to slaughter the animals here.

Your side is "vegetarian only" I understand that.

Which is why I put so much effort into giving ideas about promoting vegetarian fast food chains.

I have come on here in good faith as a person Antje Struthmann to talk to anyone about Animal Welfare.

The HKM report was done by David Wood a business consultant.

I will mention your concerns. I dont know him personally Nicky.

I also know he finished that report from a hospital bed afer suffering a heart attack so dedicated is he and refused to be paid for it.

Not enough people in this world like David Wood as far as I am concerned.

I know the CEO RSPCA QLD thinks highly of the man.

The Submission HKM project that is supported by PALE AFIC and RSPCA QLD is a "policy proposal" to the Federal and State Governments

Sure pigs only "Ok"

Antje Struthman
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 4 November 2006 7:49:03 AM
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Hi all. We still seem to have the vegetarianism, and local slaughterhouses vs live exports debates going on - not to mention this apprarent feud between PF and People Against Live Exports. Still we digress from the issue we began with, too. To People Against Live Exports, have I accused you somewhere of not contributing to the vegetarian argument? I recall commending you for the idea of vegetarian fast food outlets, but other than that I don't think I have made such a comment. Perhaps you have me confused with another contributor. With regard to the Wood Report, as sections of it are not original, and it is (correct me if I am wrong) meant to be an impartial document, by whom was this man to be paid?

I also remain very curious, and still uninformed, about where the start-up funding came from for the HKM venture, and how many farms and abattoirs are "on line" with HKM at the present time. If the organizations behind it, which I understand are People Against Live Exports, RSPCA Queensland and AFIC (Australian Federation of Islamic Councils?) are all not-for-profit organizations, what is happening to profits made from the venture (no-one does that sort of stuff for nothing)?

The RSPCA is supposed to support the "Five Freedoms" as defined by the Brambell Committee in the UK in the early 1960s, yet still we have intensively farmed pigs, battery hens and broiler chickens raised in appalling conditions. Why, as the enforcer of Prevention of Cruelty to Animals legislation in all states, is the RSPCA not prosecuting these intensive farmers? Nor do I think that any farmers should receive additional rewards for being (comparatively) humane; it is simply a matter of morals (and the majority of them do not seem to be over-burdened with that concept).

I'm still rather mystified about these email exchanges and the release of confidential emails, but it looked to be one sent to People Against Live Exports from Animals Australia??
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 4 November 2006 11:26:57 PM
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Nicky

Nice to hear from you.
I thought you wanted to only talk about pigs. I am happy to have the good manners to respond so long as you don’t come back in a few posts time and blame me for not sticking to pigs

Before I do go on however don’t you think that was a great post regarding pigs from PF and should every body not be asking questions so the public can hear first hand about the cruelty of intensive pig farms? Nobody could tell it to the public better than somebody who understands pigs well.
The public would really listen to another pig farmer Nicky. I just think that’s more important at present. Hope you do not mind but hey how lucky to actually have somebody and on the forum with that knowledge and willing to help. I am sure you are just being polite but please save your posts for the pigs as you first pointed out.

Now I have seen that post I would like to think PF would be given front row first cab off the rank. Also for the animals and for legal reasons I am not going to continue with the email saga. I think it is far more important to get something on record from the mouth of a real pig farmer for the animal’s sake

Now to answer your question

No I didn’t confuse you with another poster. I was responding to your post above which commenced as follows

[We still seem to be laboring under the ‘your side’ my side approach, and what seems to be a feud between people against live ports virus all the other groups.]
That is an interesting comment.
I don’t want to disappoint you but the HKM details are not mine just to give out. Not the confidential MOUs etc that are held by Wendy.
May I ask Nicky if you are a member of PETA?

I saw a Nicky posting on another forum and I just wondered if it was you.

No Room

[leaves posts for pigs and catch you late
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 5 November 2006 12:35:36 AM
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Nicky
There is always confusion over the powers the RSPCA have. They are supposed to support the five freedoms, but that is their ideal, not the law. The RSPCA act as an agent to enforce the ‘Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act’ They are paid by the government to do so. They can only enforce laws within the act. Factory farming is not illegal, so the RSPCA are powerless to do anything about it.

As for the continual ranting about live export etc, it happens on any thread that lot come into and just disrupts the whole discussion and prevents input from new posters that have heard it all before. So, there will never be true debate about the plight of factory farmed pigs here. Rather ironic that they cruel topics that are animal welfare related.

Keep asking her that question though. She will never tell you because the answer is none.

A suggestion antje/wendy, why dont you start a thread dedicated to pale and live exports and stick to that subject. I promise not to participate. That way if there is any interest at all in what you have to say, you will have the floor, uninterupted.

I will leave you two to it.
Posted by PF, Sunday, 5 November 2006 5:58:28 AM
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Nicky

The first paragraph was good. “continue’. Perhaps PF would make a video for use on the campaign.. TV ads to tell it like it is to the public. If all work together- its possible

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=rspca+pigs+cruelty+intensive+fair+go+&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU

http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:Jga60M7Rh4QJ:www.rspca.org.au/admin/Resources/25_fairgo.pdf+rspca+pigs+cruelty+intensive+fair+go&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=2

http://perthimc.asn.au/?action=newswire&parentview=7271&&pagenumber=1&showall=true

http://www.voiceless.org.au/Media_Section/Media_Releases/Christmas_Ham_-_What_a_Sham.html

http://www.sbs.com.au/insight/trans.php3?transid=678

.
http://www.aact.org.au/pig_industry.htm.

. I am typing this copy of the comments made earlier by PF because that’s what the public need to hear . focus. PF is the best thing for the pigs Ask her the right questions

"WRITTEN BY A FREE RANGE PIG FARMER"- SPEAKS OF THE CRUELTY OF FACTORY PIG FARMING- don’t FEED THIS TO YOUR KIDS

Given the intensive conditions pigs are raised under it is necessary fo those growers to use antibiotics to combat disease that is so easily spread. Pigs have in-feed antibiotics from when they can first eat until just before slaughter (to allow for withholding periods)
They are fed synthetic amino acids because they cannot obtain them from an unnatural grain diet alone.

Paylean is a drug used to stop porkers laying down fat.

Stresnil is a sedative used to stop fighting and make sows easier to handle. (room to run away from confrontation would work too :) ) The name of this product is a true indication of the problem. There is only a 6 hour withholding period for this drug.

In feed dewormers are used routinely. Some are injected.

There are also routine treatments for mange and lice with pesticides.

They would have us believe though that there are no residues left in pork raised this way. mmmmm

Add to that the stressful conditions and the filth that a lot of these animals are forced to live in

Imagine the stress a pig, that has been raised under artificial light its entire life, goes through when it is suddenly forced onto the back of a truck with unknown pigs in broad daylight. Probably the first time it has seen the sun. No wonder some of them just die of heart failure. They blame that on a genetic fault though

http://www.livexports.com/freerangefarmerssupportgroup/
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 5 November 2006 9:08:59 AM
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Thanks for all the responses, PF and People Against Live Exports. To the latter, it is a pity that you cannot provide the information we've asked for (a bit like all the government's "commercial in confidence" stuff! No-one can tell you what or why).

PF, do I understand that you are a free-range pig farmer? If so, sincere cogratulations. I have just written major supermarkets to tell them that I have asked at several of their supermarkets in my area about free-range ham/pork products, and the staff were simply dumbfounded by the question. They had absolutely no idea. How do they train these people? One tried to tell me that "they support local produders who comform to the Code of Practice", so I had to disabuse them if any notion that the CoP protected the pigs from gross abuse. The people selling this stuff are so totally clueless.

I know about the so-called restrictions that the RSPCA operates under, but my experience is that they stay away from intensive farming operations. When they have been asked to intervene there, they have steadfastly refused to do so. Other animal groups have had to publicize what goes on behind closed doors, and the RSPCA in NSW has its deal with Pace Farms, and the State Council in South Australia is loaded with pig farmers, and that says it all. There are two live export farmers on the State Council in WA.

I think starting a thread solely about live exports is an excellent idea, and I meant to suggest it last night and forgot. That way this forum could be dedicated to what it was meant to be, and another cruelty issue could be addressed. I'll happily contribute to that one too (how do you start them?). Other contributors seem to have 'dropped off' since we digressed from the topic, which is a pity.
Nicky.
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 5 November 2006 7:39:47 PM
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Nicky?

21st May You received post from a :Pig Farmer. You ignored it and rubbished RSPCA instead.

You ceased posting ‘without replying’” 24th May

No posts between May and only one-11th September. Nothing at all until -

I posted first time 27th October-. There goes your theory I chased everybody away.

I have pointed out to you’” twice now” you should discuss Pigs.

PF posted on 2nd November an invaluable post and you ignored that too!.


In preference of take a swipe at PALE.



It would seem you have been caught out.

PF said in the car park your group had changed their policy on supporting Free Range Farmers”. Is that true?

If so when do we see a Media Release? I am confused this was sent- Remembering these people went on National Television claiming they were main Stream..” Good People being misled by your extreme lot!”

[copy] Letter from Voiceless

11th April 2006

I have a letter from Voiceless that reads as follows- Just to clarify; Voiceless has a “policy” not to endorse any meat Industry- Including Free Range and or abattoirs.

Animals Australia , Animal liberation have the same policy. Also the extremly strange friend that funds your lot Ingrid PETA .

Why don’t you stop telling PF and the public, Porkies. Tell her the truth that you ‘oppose!’ them ‘ not support.’

Or Change the policy publicly from Vegetarian to Main Stream.

. Do you even know the numbers of Free Range Pig Farmers there are?

Bugger all.

Woolworth ,Coles are into Petrol, Grog, Fruit, Meat. Get them! Involved in “ converting the intensive” and buying into more Free Range Farms?

Shame them into committing. Shouldn’t be hard.

Do a deal with ALDI or someone and spend the public’s money on” co- jointly advertising that fact to the Australian public’

How presumptuous asking me! privileged information. I told you that’s Wendy’s work.

"Can" answer two questions for you. Yes its in “confidence Government and business”, and ‘others’ -yes there are people who would do that for nothing-

Wendy- every cent is to go back into Animal Welfare
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 6 November 2006 6:30:11 AM
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PF, sorry for the late reply. I value your post of November 2nd- thanks for that useful info.

Nicky, you are right to say that people are not informed enough about intensive farming.
People really do expect that the Australian Code of Practice is fair.
Indeed, I too, have found that the supermarket staff including managers have no idea how cruel the intensive pig farming industry 'really' is.
There seems to be the attitude of many people that 'it can't be all that bad or the govt wouldn't allow it.'

Thanks for those links as well, PALE.
From one of the links:
"For the next 10 years, breeding female pigs will be permitted to be kept in the 'stalls' which measure just 0.6 metres x 2.0 metres during their entire 16 week pregnancy – and after 2017 still can be confined for 6 weeks of each pregnancy."

How big are the 'stalls' for non-breeding pigs permitted to be, I wonder?
Posted by Celivia, Monday, 6 November 2006 9:51:42 AM
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I am just happy to AA and Voiceless support, no need to worry about PETA.

Nicky – yes I am a free range pig farmer, and proud of what I do. Yes, most people are unaware of how pigs are raised in this country. Once they have that knowledge I hope things will change dramatically

Inquiries here have certainly picked up in the past week. This is from one I have just received and I get a lot like it:

“ I live in Moorabbin in Melbourne. I saw the ads for SaveBabe.com along the train line the other day and had no idea really about
what they go through. From now on I will only buy it if I can get it from a farm such as yours.

Good on you for doing the right thing and putting quality 1st.”


I have always said that thanks to movies like Babe, people have a fanciful idea about pig farming. They should go back and pay more attention to the opening scenes in that movie. There were pig pens stack about 5 high in those huge sheds. That’s how it is done in some parts of Europe. Haven’t seen it here though.

Celivia – most of the pictures on sites like Voiceless show pigs in ‘dry sow’ stalls. They are the ones they live in when not in the smaller farrowing crates. We have those stalls still in some sheds here and use them only to feed the sow individually. They would have about 20cm room on either side and room at the rear to step backwards to defecate over a pit.

I have visited quite a few intensive piggeries. Some now use group housing for dry sows or even eco shelters with straw bedding but one thing is common in all – farrowing crates.

Woolworths have stated in the past that they cannot support free range piggeries for environmental reasons based on a study done by, you guessed it, Australian Pork Limited. They are apparently under a lot more pressure now and trying to transfer the heat back to APL.
Posted by PF, Monday, 6 November 2006 1:41:57 PM
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hello everybody

Its great to see really good post happening

Does anybody have any ideas on how we can check out many of these so called Free Range farms on the web sites.?

It would seem the industry has moved to advertsing under free Range when of course nothing is futher than the truth.

One can only assume as the preshure steps up more and more will simply list themselves as Free Range .

What about a national accreditation task force to be funded by all groups co jointly to inspect farm by farm.

I know we already have accreditations from several sources however this could be a problem because the public simply will not have the information required to make a infomred choice.

If you do a googles you will find suddenly we have free range Farmers everywhere umm.

Any thoughts on how the public will know the difference and what about false advertsing?

AND how do we get the ones off! right now we know are not the real deal.. What about our city councils doing checks? A branch of something under the health depatments maybe.? Trouble is would you trust them.

Any ideas at all most welcome.

Good Evening

Antje
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 6 November 2006 10:10:57 PM
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Hi everyone - I'm going to dissociate myself from any further dialogue with People Against Live Exports - looking at the last two posts, it's like dealing with a split personality, and quite honestly, I can live without the angst and hostility. And since they have used this forum to "promote" slaughter operations and free-range farms under the HKM banner, they should be more fortcoming with information if they want support from people.

PF - thank you for your information, and you too, Celevia. PF, when you say that farrowing crates are used only for "feeding sows individually", how long does that mean they are in them? If they have 20cm on each side and can walk one step back/one step forward, and they are in them for any significant length of time, then the enterprise is not free range by definition, is it? I'd really like to know more about this - why they need to be in them at all, etc. Also, I take it that your pigs are not full of chemicals and drugs like those in intensive farms too. I think that's a major selling point. Goodnight, everyone.
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 6 November 2006 11:18:10 PM
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Same old game ay guys? Well, you can play by yourselves, I am way to busy actually doing something to better the life of farmed animals to bother.
Posted by PF, Tuesday, 7 November 2006 5:27:49 AM
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Agreed Nicky.
I’ve no wish to waist time. Rather weak reply but what else could you say.

Re Anti Meat Eating Attitude- Ask yourselves this question?

Does that help the animals?- Or should we try to make it kinder since Australian's are a meat eating country?

Global Australian Kind “Meats- is a recommendation to Government. A policy recommended “policy” backed by RSPCA QLD and Humane Society NSW to improve Animal Welfare To create, work opportunities, for the thousands, re locating from city to Regional Areas and others.

It’s quite clear and you know it was submitted at the Senate Enquiry. Your lot rejected it because it’s not vegetarian. Be honest at least.

Don’t! tell , Farmers you want to help, then! object to them selling their Animals for slaughter.


*I mentioned earlier a problem with people falsely advertising they are Free Range to cash in on Campaign’s.

I spoke with a Farmer who was advertising [and still is] as Free Range pork. He could not see why a person might get up set by his false advertising. I am sure if this was some other sort of product like children’s toys being falsely advertised the Government would do something about it.

Department of fair trading, no powers, less teeth,- All suggestions welcome?

Here’s “another Pledge idea.” How about all! The Animal Welfare organisations who run campaigns, agree that every cent collected, by the good public, goes straight into improvements for the animals?

Hands on, improving on buildings, new runs, with much more space. I will make that pledge. One intensive farm at a time. One Animal at a time.

Anybody else? How about Australia Pork?

Set up a” Public Trust Fund” for the Public at Major Banks in time for Christmas. The public should not be” forced” to donate through “any” Animal Welfare Organisation just to help animals.

Let’s give it straight to the pigs. Least we can do while eating our Christmas Dinners.

The “pigs” would thank you for a programme to enlarge their living quarters.

With every - Cent going into improvements

Any Takers?

Antje Struthmann
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 7 November 2006 9:03:09 AM
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PF “There were pig pens stack about 5 high in those huge sheds.”
Yes, I have watched something on the net about that- they do have them in European countries, was a Dutch idea due to lack of land.

These ‘pigflats’ as they call them are supposed to be friendlier than the usual batteries because the pigs have large balconies 'dressed up' as ‘land’ ao that pigs can mess with mud.

The layout is such that the outside is occupied by pigs; natural light and balconies.

The darker inside of the building is utilised as mushroom farms fertilised and heated by pig manure (in fact the building is heated by manure) - the pigs eat the remainders of veggies and salmon.

Pigs’ diets are monitored by a chip in the ear. Pigs, to get their food, have to open a cage in where food is automatically dispensed, and the chip monitors when they eat.
The farmer keeps track on the pigs' eating habits on his pc. At least one vet comes in every day.

On top of the roof is a salmon farm pond.

At the basement is an abattoir- 5000 pigs are being slaughtered daily.
On another floor they make smoked ham.

These pigflats are situated close to the water (location location!) so the processed meat is shipped straight away without problems with road transports.

Manure is pushed down into a system that takes it to a floor where it gets processed to be used for the mushroom section and heating.

While it may economically and environmentally be a really good solution, I am not thrilled about the number of pigs in each section of the flats- although it seems more animal friendly than the regular factories.

It focuses on the pigs; apart from the veggies and salmon there was talk about chickens kept there as well and a restaurant where people can dine on pork, chicken, mushrooms, and salmon ;)

You can have a look at a video, but it’s spoken in Dutch. There’s talking for a few minutes, then you can see the pig building.

Pigflats: http://cgi.omroep.nl/cgi-bin/streams?/tv/nps/vangewesttotgewest/bb.20020620.r
Posted by Celivia, Tuesday, 7 November 2006 11:22:18 AM
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Sorry, the link doesn't seem to work on here. Try this one and choose Real Player (ADSL), Realplayer (modem) or Windows Media.

http://www.agro.nl/innovatienetwerk/tdl/films/varkensflat.html
Posted by Celivia, Tuesday, 7 November 2006 11:30:46 AM
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Hi there PF. I hope I didn't offend you. It's just that I really want to know what the parameters are for something to be called "free range". Are you able to explain that - in particular the part about using farrowing crates? I wasn't being critical, I just want to be a bit better informed.
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 7 November 2006 11:11:28 PM
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About Animal Welfare groups generally:
I wonder what all these animal groups actually do with the donations and funds they get.
What percentage of donations goes to the animals?

Are there any financial reports available for the public (and govt) to see what is happening with the money?
It would be good to see details and percentages so we know what is actually done to benefit the animals. I have no idea what happens with the money after I make a donation.
I would have thought that some animal organisation, for example, had organised some TV advertising campaign in favour of free range pork (and chicken etc).

Why do those groups not jointly allocate some money towards educating campaigns? People NEED to be aware of how bad things are before things can improve. The public does NOT KNOW how bad things are in intensive pig farms (and for caged chickens).

All animal groups probably agree that educating the public is a really important aspect of improving animal welfare.
People have been donating money to animal groups for years now and nothing much changes.

Whatever these animal groups do, why don’t they simply organise a joint fund, cooperate and organise some educational campaign, just like the anti-smoke and the aids campaigns.

When?
Posted by Celivia, Thursday, 9 November 2006 11:23:08 AM
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"I wonder what all these animal groups actually do with the donations and funds they get. "

Well Celivia, by what I can see, they probably sit in their
offices and argue amongst themselves on the internet :)
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 9 November 2006 2:22:48 PM
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Hi Celevia and Yabby
I can probably fill in a bit here. The RSPCA in each state is currently sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars - in some states millions, in investments. It is the only body with the legislative power to enforce animal cruelty legislation in the country, yet does not intervene in intensive farming matters, even when conclusive evidence is provided to it by groups such as Animal Liberation, whose members often risk their safety gathering this evidence.
Animals Australia is the "peak" animal "welfare" body in the country, and many other groups are members. Animals Australia is currently running a very strong campaign in the press (and those magazines who have accepted it; some refused) about intensive pig farming with the support of Voiceless. Animals Australia also brought the recent film and documentary evidence of gross animal cruelty in five Middle Eastern countries to which Australia exports animals (Egypt, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman), some of which was seen on "Sixty Minutes", in the handling and slaughter practices there (see www.animalsaustralia.org.au and go to live exports, Middle East investigation. They had some support from PETA in that, and PETA continues investigating there (see www.savethesheep.com)
Animal Liberation in NSW is currently running a strong campaign about battery (caged hen) egg farming - but cannot get support from the RSPCA there because the RSPCA NSW has a royalty arrangement with Pace Farms, a huge battery farming organization there (they have a few hens in barns, which the RSPCA clearly feels is sufficient for it to endorse Pace Farms' products). Animal Liberation Victoria continues to campaign vigorously against broiler chick farming, puppy mills, amongst other things, and has its Animal Rescue program.
Most people, in my experience, who work with these groups, contribute enormously of their own time and resources, because there really is not that much money in their bank accounts.
Also, groups lobby governments, write complex submissions when needed, visit schools and hold demonstrations to raise awareness.
So - the information is out there really, for those who want to see.
Regards
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 9 November 2006 7:08:24 PM
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Celivia
What Nicky? not saying is that RSPCA dont have the "codes of practise-" "The laws to convict many of these people".

What everybody needs to do is 'ring the bells of Parliment" and demand! some decent laws .

This campange against RSPCA by extreme groups such as PETA and Animals Australia could do some real good if it wasnt run by veg people.

Two nights ago RSPCA QLD was on National Tv under a threat of closure due to lack of funds. So if they are sitting on millions I am sure the CEO would like to know.

Animals Australia being a "Peak" body is interesting. They are self appointed to that postion which would not be a problem if they were not a vegatrain and vegan 90% of Australians pluss are meat eaters.

PETA "their friends" kill millions of dogs.

They dont beleive people should have a dog as a pet for goodness sake.

Animal liberation have been told a million times RSPCA cant prosecucte if the evidence is obtained illeagally "tresspassing"

Thats right Animals Australia vist, hold rallies and write subs and letters? refuse to work with alternative solutions and oh of course fund raise

Mark pearson and Lyn White are good operators by large but the leader Glencye should have been replaced ten years ago.

What the Animals Need is for AA to stop misleading the public that its the RSPCA who are slack instead of all State and federal Government.

The public need to get more involved.

I think nothing short of a Royal Commishion is required in this country into all groups and animal welfare including RSPCA.

Might be a real eye opener to the public.

Celivias idea of the public getting more directly involved to improve conditions is a good one.

To stop live exports we must open more abattoirs here in Australia.

Both voiceless and Animals Australia oppose that.?


Pity labour are so dumb they cant see the votes in this and do a MOU with their uniouns to allow abattoir workers to slaughter here.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 10 November 2006 5:42:18 AM
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Perhaps, People Against Live Exports, you could ask RSPCA Queensland about the $12 million it was holding for the year 2005 - I think you will find it is invested, as is the case with other states, such as South Australia: just under $5m, and Victoria: $20m as examples, from a reliable source. It was reported not so long ago in either The Age or the Australian, I think (please someone correct me if I am wrong) that the RSPCA is the biggest NGO (non-government organization) outside the churches.
As for Codes of Practice and enforcement, the Codes of Practice provide expressly for breaches of the cruelty provisions contained in Animal Welfare/Prevention of Cruelty to Animals legislation when it comes to farm/food/production animals everywhere. It has been found in a couple of states just recently that the CoP for pigs WAS being breached, but the RSPCA chose to ignore the opportunity to gather its own evidence (since it claims it cannot use "illegally obtained" evidence, although that seems to be largely based somewhere between choice and denial). While non-compliance with a CoP can form the basis of a prosecution, so can compliance form the basis of a defence - and we all know that if you kept a dog or cat in conditions such as pigs are kept, you would be before the courts in no time. Similarly, the mulesing mutilation practised upon sheep.
The University of Queensland Gatton campus was reportedly in breach of the "Model CoP for the Welfare of Animals - the Pig"; I wonder if anything has been done about that?
The legislation is there, the CoPs protect the perpetrators from prosecution where they do comply (and it cannot rationally be said by anyone that the deprived and barren conditions under which pigs are kept provide for the "welfare" of ANY animal), the enforcement of the legislation by all authorities, including the judiciary, is pitifully inadequate.
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 11 November 2006 6:29:33 PM
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Nicky.
If you have proof please post it. All NFP organisations invest. It costs eleven million just to run QLD. A indication how much the public care. I was told some property left to RSPCA QLD about seven years ago was re nigged causing hardship. Wendy has asked Jenny Hodges for years to get all of the Branches to put in a lousy twenty dollars a week each towards expenses. Also to attend meetings with Malaysian Government officials and get behind the cojoint venture as policy towards phaseing out live exports. Pigs might fly. They have shown no interest and been agressive. I know for a fact she mortgaged her home to keep the Ban Live Exports [PALE] going. RSPCA QLD has been the only! ones to help. I moved from the Snowy to help because they couldnt afford to pay staff. She's waited for three years for some help with paying a consultant to prepair a plan requested by Government regarding the joint venture being adopted as policy. RSPCA national say they have no money. Your lot say no because its about killing animals.I know this thread is about pigs but I can only talk about live exports. It seems we are not so different after all. Celiva suggested a open Royal Commission into all Animal Organisations. Or a public verses animal welfare organisations court case. I believe Wendy suggested that four years ago and provided silks to run it but got no support from your people. After all it IS the public money. You cant have extreme people telling others not to eat meat Nicky. Its your only! handicap. So why dont you spend your donations on radio and tv adds telling the public the truth about our so called Animal Welfare. Where do you display your donations to the public? I am all for calling for a Royal Commission and I think I know somebody who would make a good wittness and be there with bells on.
We would still have the difference of main stream and vegetarian to sort however.
Antje Struthmann.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 12 November 2006 9:50:39 AM
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Pale, I think bagging the RSPCA on this thread is in very poor taste.

Especially when you would have us believe that you work in conjuction with them - seems like you are more against them than with them.

You can shout as loud as you like that you support QLD not national, but to the general public they are all one in the same.

The whole thing is really off topic. Why dont you start your own thread and take it there.
Posted by PF, Sunday, 12 November 2006 1:21:22 PM
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Hi all,

It is a good point that was made by I think it is Celivia, that animal welfare groups could perhaps 'organise a joint fund' for campaining and educational purposes..
Yabby..yes it IS Ozgirl this time..:)
You may have a point that some pple sit on here and argue amongst themselves, but then that would apply to all of us in that case.

And Pf , yes there still is a lot to be said for a thread being set up for the exclusivity of PALE issues..
Then PALE would get the respect and focussed attention it needs.
Posted by OZGIRL, Sunday, 12 November 2006 2:04:58 PM
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"You may have a point that some pple sit on here and argue amongst themselves, but then that would apply to all of us in that case."

Ahh you miss the point Ozgirl :) I have no website to ask for
public donations to fund my activities, neither do I get any
Govt handouts, like some animal welfare groups do. If Pale
would take money from the RSPCA, they are funded by the taxpayer
to some extent, would that mean that us taxpayers are paying
for their staff to sit on the internet and argue? Is that
how taxpayers money should be used? Its a valid question.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 12 November 2006 2:23:33 PM
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I agree, PF, a separate thread SHOULD be established to take up the live export issues. I disagree though that it is necessarily in bad taste to bag the RSPCA on this thread - the RSPCA is usually involved in the development of Codes of Practice which result in the intensive conditions under which pigs are kept, and the RSPCA State Council in South Australia is reportedly heaving stacked with pig farmers (remember the "Four Corners" program "A Blind Eye" in June 2004? That program detailed precisely the RSPCA's involvement with battery hen farming in NSW, pig farming in SA, and the fact that there are two live export farmers on the State Council in WA). So it's a case if "if the cap fits", I'm afraid. To People Against Live Exports, I am not a member of any group, so I don't get any donations that I can detail for the public, I'm afraid. To Yabby - my friend, I do not know of any animal "welfare" group which receives any funding at all from the taxpayer other than the RSPCA, some of whose activities are funded by the various governments (is that a conflict of interest of what?). So that leaves us free to use what time we have available to argue on threads like this with a free conscience!
That's it for now.
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 12 November 2006 2:46:20 PM
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Yabby,

To the issue of certain groups in society being entitled to funding or not..where do we draw the line?
Your arguement to some extent is a nonsense..for everything in our economy is funded by the Taxpayer, so PALE and groups like them are only doing the same as every other group person or organisation who are asking for assistance to better conditions for animals or whatever the reason is that they apply for assistamce in the first place.

Asking for assistance to help the plight of animals .Why is that not a worthy cause.?
We have hundreds of programs set up to help a myriad of organisations to assist tsanumi victims, overseas aid,farmers,students,community health issues and on it goes.

Who decides which issues are more important?If animal welfare were not important they wouldnt be able to apply for funding, ask for donations etc, it would be illegal,branded as a scam.

If you as a farmer find yourself in deep financial trouble , do you not feel entitled to access help available to you? Wether you do or dont is your perogative of course. If so why is the aid provided to you more important than the aid available to animal groups?You dont agree with it, no, but many others do.
Society values and priorities are all based on a commonality that says that it is a priority to help and alleviate human and animal suffering and our laws are set down to attempt to provide relief and help for those groups most in need.We live in a humane society by and large.

We should not try to diminish one group for something that is a given in our society and available to all and for much less worthy causes I might venture to add.
Posted by OZGIRL, Sunday, 12 November 2006 3:01:13 PM
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Ozgirl
Its good to see you back posting. I have not laughed since you left.Be good girl so you can stick around. As far as I am concerned PF nobody gags me. I work for nothing and so does Wendy putting in out of her own pocket. Its all for one reason and one only. To help the Animals. We have in my opinion the best CEO of RSPCA in QLD. Thats does not mean I have to agree with every single thing RSPCA National do. As a person I am frre to agree with Ceilivia and Nicky . Nickys raised another good question and it deserves the upmost attention and support from anybody and everybody who cares about animals. If we dont discuss things in the open then how are things ever to change. I thought that was what this political forum was for. If Nicky knows this than the rest of us especially me I will not only listen and support her in any way she or her people may ask. Although she may or may not be using her real name it takes enormous courage to stand up and she's certainly by the sound of it done her homework. Yabby the only thing the groups disagree on is the vegetarian bit. Thats because PALE is pushing for this alternative co joint farming to be put up as policy to Governments. Animal Lib say they cant support it because it involves opening more abattoirs which of course does involve killing animals.
I would pefer to find alternatives than just talk about the cruelty of live exports. There is no difference between us in that regard. Your the only one that approves Live Exports.
So there is less difference between myself and them than myself and yourself.
Yes Ozgirl Celivia has got a good idea of the public trust fund and the open enquiry. Bring it on. Its ok PF I am sure I can find another sixteen hour seven day a week job for no payment. Probably Wendy as well although I cant speak for her.

Antje Struthmann
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 12 November 2006 3:10:11 PM
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"Your arguement to some extent is a nonsense..for everything in our economy is funded by the Taxpayer,"

Absolutaly not! Many things have absolutaly no taxpayer involvement. The taxpayer does not contribute to my time
spent on OlO for instance, thats out of my own pocket,
I earnt that money. So I am accountable to myself, nobody
else. Meantime if taxpayers funds are used to fund anything,
the people receiving it, should be accountable to the taxpayer!

Remember the howls of protest on here, about taxpayer funding
animal welfare in the Middle East? I did some homework on
that. It turns out that MLA receives grants only for r&d,
all the rest of the budget is financed by levies etc. So
no taxpayer funds are used.

So my question to animal welfare groups is, if they receive
any kind of taxpayer funds, which could be through the RCPCA
etc, or even from the general public as donations, are they
fully acountable for those funds, including time spent
fooling around on the internet?

How do donors know that their money is spent wisely and efficiently?

Just because something is a feelgood story, does not mean that
money is not being wasted, either taxpayer money or donor money.
They should be fully accountable as to how funds are spent, for all
to see and know. Where do you have a problem with that?
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 12 November 2006 3:22:53 PM
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"I hope I didn't offend you. It's just that I really want to know what the parameters are for something to be called "free range". Are you able to explain that - in particular the part about using farrowing crates?"

Nicky - I apologise if I have lumped you into the catagory of trouble maker over that question, but it is something that really gets up my nose - so called animal welfare groups that want to bring discredit to farmers that are doing their best for their animals. No one is going to stop the farming of animals, so why hinder the ones that are doing the right thing. Anyway ...

We do not use farrowing crates - they have all been dismantled.

The sow stalls (seen on most wlefare sites) have had all side rails removed, just leaving the head stall area over a trough. There is nothing left to even hold the sows in place. This allows the sows to eat without being bullied and pushed away by the sows next to them. If thats not a clear description let me know. The shed containing this set up, is opened to the sows at set 'meal times' when they come in from the paddocks to eat grain. We also make the most of this time to catch sows that need to be moved to the farrowing area, vaccinations etc. It is a good management tool.

Anyone can just stick pigs in a paddock, leave them there and call them free range. Free range by neglect is not acceptable either. Our system takes a lot more time and effort but the welfare of the pigs is that important to us.

I do hope that your interest in this is sincere, unlike other posters. I am happy to answer any questions for those truly interested.
Posted by PF, Monday, 13 November 2006 1:46:30 PM
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Yabby,,

Im sure you thought you got me on the 'bones of the economy ' talk and thats fine..I dont want to trifle over these things when its not really what I was getting at anyway..

I just think its a little begrudging of you to question why anyone on here needs to justify reasons for posting.
What are yours?
It doesnt matter really does it.?I do happen to know the pple at the PALE office are hardworking pple and do not sit at the keyboard all day long.No more or less than you anyway and you are quick to tell us that just because you put up a post here and there that you are still a hardworking farmer...That is my point.

I believe you are...:) so lets give pple we dont know the benefit of the doubt because after all we DONT really know do we and its hard to gauge the true character of a person thru a few posts on a forum.It is also true that some of us are more articulate than others in posting styles and convey theyre points more clearly..this does not make those pple better pple than those who are not so talented.

I know some pretty awful mean ppple who could talk the head of the Pope.I wouldnt give you a cracker for any of them.
Posted by OZGIRL, Monday, 13 November 2006 2:43:13 PM
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Ozgirl
Thanks for being fair. Celivia as well. In a nut shell I want to see all the money raised through all groups go straight to farmers to improve the conditions. I do not of the believe that veg groups no matter how well intended and how hard they work improve animal welfare. I am not one of those people. Yabby just remember you! said no public money goes into MLA. for goodness sake.! I am busy right now but when I get time I will remind you of that. Today we lost Bing our beautiful grey horse and friend of nineteen years to my friend. I wont be posting for a while because of it and other jobs that need to be done.
There has been some contact regarding your idea celivia of a trust fund to raise money and send it straight to the farmers to add their improvments.
As soon as I know more I will let you know. Also today a reply arrived from voiceless as to their postion regarding people eating meat. They do not endorse people eating meat so there for cant support the reopening of any abattoirs or building of new ones.

Thank you for clearing that up. The question is now in that case I wonder if they are prepared to give the funds donated by the public to the farmers to comply with the new regulations and improve the life of animals awaiting slaughter/ Possibly not. Possibly they may say that would be supporting abattoirs? I dont know. Perhaps ozgirl or somebody would be kind enough to enquire of the other groups just what all the funds are used for if not to go to the animals. PALE is the only group that support farmers and by doing so hope to improve animal welfare. So Yabby that is why I spend time on the Forum

Antje Struthmann
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 13 November 2006 4:44:27 PM
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PF, thank you so much for answering my questions. I was honestly not seeking to offend you, but I do need to understand better and I recognize that. You have helped me enormously. My own position is that I am a vegetarian, but that is not a view that I attempt to force upon anyone else. I do encourage my friends to seek out free-range products though, and I hope that your products are so marketed (and that you receive appropriate support for that too). I try to be sensitive to other peoples' positions. I have written to both Coles and Woolworths to say that I am disappointed to note their lack of support for free-range pork products (others in my family purchase them, therefore I felt I had the right to say that). I guess you can't tell me here what brand I should be asking them to stock, which is a pity. I think that improvements to animal welfare will be incremental, but you have taken great strides towards that and shown great leadership in the face of what I am sure must have been some derision from intensive pig farming entities. I wish you all the very best, and thank you again.
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 13 November 2006 7:15:47 PM
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"It turns out that MLA receives grants only for r&d,
all the rest of the budget is financed by levies etc. So
no taxpayer funds are used."

Above is exactly what I wrote Antje and its exactly true.
As a member of MLA, I get an annual copy of their budget.
Bother to inform yourself and study their accounts, to
see from where money comes and where it goes. If you
don't understand the figures, perhaps somebody can
help you there, who does.

Ozgirl, many people work hard and think they are doing
wondeful things for the world, which is not always the
case. There are plenty of Catholic females singing their
hail mary's outside the abortion clinics, believing that
they are doing good. I don't happen to agree with them.

My point is quite simple. If taxpayers money or public
money is used, for people to fool around on the internet,
ok fair enough. As long as its known and providers of
funds know thats where their money goes. What problem
do you have with public money being accounted for?

I think that churches too should account for what they
do with donated funds btw. If its tucked away in the
Vatican bank, why don't they say so
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 13 November 2006 8:52:42 PM
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I do not believe that money raised by animal advocacy groups should be "given" to farmers to "make improvements" under any circumstances. They have got away with keeping pigs in intolerable conditions for far too long, and made their money out of that, now they must use some of that profit, made out of the immense suffering of these sensitive and inteligent animals, to fund their own compliance costs. It was good enough for PF to lead the way, so far as I can gather, without handouts - and all credit must go to him/her, and the (all to few) others like them for doing so.
As for taxpayers' funds being used for people to argue on the internet, Yabby, I am not funded by the taxpayer in any way. I work 40+ hours a week, in a non-related profession, come home and use MY computer and MY time. And I am absolutely certain that the known animal advocacy groups (and I do not include the RSPCA in that) do not receive taxpayers' funds either. Quite rightly, they would be most unlikely (not to say aghast at the crazy notion) to fund farmers to do the right thing - treat animals with some humanity and sensitivity - which they should have been doing all along. Why would they, or their members, want to fund these people to undo the heinous wrongs they have done?
Furthermore, any member of an incorporated organization (as most groups are), is entitled to ask for financial data at any time.
MLA only receiving taxpayers' funds only for R&D? Yabby, give us a BREAK! They are very creative at letting you see what they want you to see. Also Yabby, I meant to clear this up earlier - I think you claimed earlier that the film footage shown on "Sixty Minutes" was old material - I can assure you that it wasn't, it was taken over December 2005/January 2006
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 13 November 2006 10:32:34 PM
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Nicky, ok I will give you a break! You are free to check out
the MLA budget and explain to me where I am wrong.

Footage of what? Of bad practise in the ME? Were they
Australian livestock? Isn't it time that somebody did something
to improve things there?

Popping an odd sheep into a car boot happens all over rural
Australia. Cutting sheeps throats without a stungun happens
all over rural Australia. Umm and what now? You cityslickers
are clearly so far out of touch with the real world, its quite
amusing.

Right now we have some Fremantle based animal libber group,
spending money on newspaper ads and billboard ads, trying to
shock the public about live exports. At the same time we have
local processors pleading with Govt to allow them to bring in
a few more workers for their plants from overseas, as Aussies
don't want the jobs and cattle are waiting for months in drought
conditions to get slaughtered, due to lack of staff.

Heyyyy, what about planet reality here!? In 2005 tens of
thousands of cattle and hundreds of thousands of sheep were
trucked across Australia, as there was no slaughter capacity
in WA to cope. Now we have a few idiots suggesting that another
3 million sheep should not be exported, when we cannot even
process our few sheep and cattle here now, Govt won't allow us
to bring in the workers. Do these fanatics have any common
sense at all?
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 13 November 2006 10:52:49 PM
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Nicky I agree. Donated funds should not go to farmers. Money should never be the only incentive for welfare friendly farming. I acutally find the notion a little insulting - or maybe its just that I am fiercely independant and dont want anyone else to be able to take any of the credit for what I do.

It is a good point though, when free range becomes popular will pigs just be turned out into paddocks to cash in on the demand? Luckily growing pigs is very different from other livestock. If not managed properly they will not be acceptable for the market and there is a very small window of opportunity in regard to how old they can be, how much fat they lay down etc. They must be grown well or there will be no profit for the farmer.

Did anyone else besides Cilivia sign the pro pig pledge? http://www.savebabe.com/pledge There was on option to recieve the action pack (free) I got mine and it is fantastic. A well made CD on intensive farming (done with permission) and a set of postcards to send to friends and supermarkets. All for professionally done. Great use of donated funds I would have to say.

The same R&D grants happen in the pig industry. I dont see any of it going towards alternate systems - just more or less how can we cram more pigs into a smaller area and how can we force them to grow even faster. Or how we can build export markets. Thats so frustrating when the biggest problem the australia pork industry has is competition from cheap imports. or am I just missing something.
Posted by PF, Tuesday, 14 November 2006 6:03:08 AM
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Yabby
I agree- people who donate to certain groups, whether animal welfare organisations or churches should have the right to know what is happening with their money.
Some organizations make it clear, for example when WSPA is asking for donations to rescue bears in China, I would trust that this is what the money is being used for.

I agree with PF that the AA action pack does look very professional and it’s good that they have used the money wisely to create it, but they have been around since 1980 and collected donations all this time so they should have something to show for.

Nicky,
I really hope the great campaigns AA are running will do good- although I think TV ads would reach a much bigger group of people.
It’s time that the public got to see the truth, over and over again, about how pigs are being treated on most farms.

Some animal sites show their success stories on their website, such as WSPA.
I think it is important to let the public know what every animal group have achieved.

PF
“Our system takes a lot more time and effort but the welfare of the pigs is that important to us.”
Admirable!

No insult intended (re: the funding aid)- I've been under the impression (probably through programs on TV) that farmers are generally struggling and that money would be the main reason that they cannot convert to free range.

But if it's not the money aspect that is holding farmers back to convert, then what are the actual problems with it- is it just, as you say, the more intensive labour that is holding farmers back?

Are there other aspects that hold farmers back from converting to free range farms? E.g.:

Do intensive pigfarms make more money than freerange pigfarms?

Or would it be the need for more land perhaps?

Specialised knowledge- need for more education and is this easily available?

Is the draught a bigger problem to freerange farmers than to battery farmers?

Or do some farmers simply not care enough?

Other reasons?
Posted by Celivia, Tuesday, 14 November 2006 7:27:17 PM
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IMHO Celivia intensive farming is lazy farming.

I saw an interview recently at a large piggery and they only employed 2 people.

Free range is more labour intensive and requires very different management techniques. Not just management of the pigs, but also the land they graze on.

FR pigs still need grain, they cannot eat pasture alone because of their high protien requirements. The other point is that pigs locked in close confinement do not expend a lot of energy and therefore grow faster and cost less to produce. (apart from the feed additives)

I cell graze my pigs so that they benefit my land not destroy it. There will be large areas that, thanks to the pigs, will never require chemical fetilizers to grow crops. The benifits to the environment (and my bank account) are enormous.

FR farming needs a whole new mind set. I would like to see that family farm that is struggling to make it, take up a small herd of well cared for pigs and be able to make a living, look after the welfare of their animals, make a contribution to the enviroment and end the greed and cruelty of intensive farming. I suppose I am saying it needs a holistic approach.

I hope I didnt offend you with my comments about money. The best thing that can happen is public awareness. I have had so many emails since this campaign started from people that just did not know. Like I have said before, create the demand and farmers will convert. If we join that with the Humane Choice label, welfare for pigs cannot lose.
Posted by PF, Tuesday, 14 November 2006 8:05:47 PM
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Ok to add my 5c worth here :)

PF, you are clearly an intelligent lady who knows lots about
free range pig farming. There are also plenty of small
farms looking for a livelyhood out there. Yet there is very little
information in the rural press about free range pig farming.

What say you write a book about the subject, there should
be a great market out there with all those treechangers
etc.

Voiceless or similar could help fund the first print run
for you and promote it as an alternative to intensive
farming.

Sheesh now there is a good idea :)
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 15 November 2006 8:08:55 AM
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PF
No offense taken at all ;) You were just expressing your opinion.
Thank you for your great answers. It’s just so good to have a farmer on here, it’s much, much appreciated.
Yes sheesh Yabby- what a brainwave- now that IS a good idea!
PF you have a wealth of knowledge and experience which are very much worth sharing.
A book like this would be a wonderful use of donations.
It would also save you from having to anwer all these separate emails and questions, you could include them in the book.
I would certainly buy it out of interest, even though I’m a city slicker ;)
Perhaps there could be a FR farmers series, apart from PF writing one on pigfarming, a free range chicken farmer could write one as well.

A good publisher may be able to help in giving advice about the outlay, chapters etc.
Something to think about anyway- you have to have time to write as well.
Posted by Celivia, Wednesday, 15 November 2006 10:15:30 AM
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Yabby, Celivia, thanks but I am sure there is someone with far more experience than me that could do a better job. Maybe someone a little more 'mainstream' would have more impact.

Nicky, saddlebacks are considered rare but they are available. They are one of the old breeds not use commercially because they lay down a lot of fat.

Yes, all pigs have very individual personalities. They are as intelligent as dogs and can be trained just about as easily. Pigs have quite a vocabulary too. When you spend enough time with them you pick up the idea of what they are trying to say. They love routine and do not like it if you change things on them. It always amazes me that they know exactly what time the shed is opened for 'dinner' and will be there waiting. Wont bother any other time of the day. (Sows I am talking about)

We make sure that a few weeks before our pigs go to market that they are brought in to smaller, close paddocks and herded and weighed weekly, not just because we need to know, but so that they are used to the extra contact and will not stress when that time comes. Our pigs just seem curious about their surroundings while the intensive pigs seem scared and stressed.
Posted by PF, Wednesday, 15 November 2006 8:29:11 PM
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Yabby

PF Its certainly is a good idea. There are no other Free Range pork Farmers I see around that have williningly spoken out about Animal Welfare.
I am sure you also would enjoy seeing the smaller rural little guy benefit from it. Voiceless and Animals Australia have far more funds than us however we would be happy kick it off with a donation and ask everybody to support it.

I will stop posting or having anything to do with the idea if it makes PF and AA happy. That a promise.


Anyway Yabby Celivia PF everyone its certainly the best thing that could ever happen towards animal welfare and the smaller real deal farmers in this country.

Yabby could help you and maybe we could funds him for his time until hopefully your both rich and famous along with many other small Free Range Farmers working under your guidence.

Yes Yabby Yes.

Good on you.

Please do think about it PF. Your the best chance the animals have .

There are so few of you.

Promise I will donate and vacate whatever you want.

Come on Animals Australia Voiceless Animal liberation and the other forty organisations out there.

The answers sitting right in front of our noses.

Yabby is right. Can we please all work together for the animals and small regional farmers sake.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 16 November 2006 3:06:22 AM
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Thanks for all the support guys! Certainly has given me something to think about. Not sure how you go about something like this, but no doubt I can find all that out.

I will expect ideas for a title from you lot :)
Posted by PF, Thursday, 16 November 2006 11:54:38 AM
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What about umm let me see

"Free Range Pigs" -farming happy, healthy pigs
the natural way
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 16 November 2006 12:23:44 PM
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Hello all. It looks like we are all agreed on something! PF, you obviously put an enormous amount of thought and care into what you do, even down to making the animals more used to people when they need to be. If not a book, what about a website? Either would be great, because I think the time WILL come when the community as a whole will reject the intensively farmed "products". Pigs are certainly fascinating animals; I wish I had more scope to be more involved with them. Do you get sad when you have to send them off to market? I think I would. I found the story on the Saddleback pigs - apparently, a litter (is that the right word?)has been born at a school in Launceston in Tasmania. The teacher interviewed said that school children had really "off the wall" ideas about where chicken and eggs come from - basically, they haven't got a clue about where meat generally comes from, much less battery hens and broiler chickens. He advised the children not to name the piglets, because he felt that they had to recognize that they would (eventually) be sent off to market. It was a charming story really.
PF, I think if you wrote your book or your website as empathetically as you have written about your pigs here, it would be a huge success.
Go for it!
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 16 November 2006 6:41:07 PM
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Thanks Nicky. yes, I feel a little sad for each pig. I actually avoid eye contact with them on the day they are loaded for market. It probably sounds silly, but pigs have almost human like and very expressive eyes. I do know though, that they have had a good life while in my care. No stress, no fear, free to behave as any pig should.

I do have a website but posting it has caused problems in the past. There is another site http://freerangepork.com.au that lists a few free range pork farmers. I will let you guess which one I am :) They are all dedicated farmers.

A lot more should be done to educate children about were their food comes from and that farm animals are not pets. (well, ok, some you cant help but get attached too) I believe that next year, in NSW anyway, it will be brought in to primary school teaching. A very simple version, milk comes from cows not cartons and woolworths does not manufacture eggs etc.
Posted by PF, Thursday, 16 November 2006 9:03:23 PM
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Yabby PF
Good Name.
Excuse me PF may I ask you this question. If you were to be invited to have input as a stake holder on the NCCAW board would you consider it?
Its an awful lot of work to just go on a web page. What I mean by that is this is too good not to be promoted properly. Magazines tv newspapers and free range pork rallies. I dont want to upset you PF so I will just pretend I am speaking of somebody else.
If 'that' farmer because a household name and was heavily promoted as Brand x[ free range] the public would ask for it.

From there Yabby perhaps or somebody could act as a consultant along with 'the farmer' to assist people learning to free range farm and find suitable properties.
An Agriculture Educational free Range Farm Stay could be established near that farmer later. I think that farmer would need to be engaged [and paid] as a consultant by Animal Welfare organisations. Other wise the industry might say that farmer was just doing it to promote 'their own farm or something.'

Then the farmer could attend seminars arranged by Animal Welfare organisations Australia wide as a quest speaker. Accomadation and a fee would be paid the same as any other consultant and it would be a great way to promote the book.




I have left something for you Yabby on the car park you wont like on live exports.

I hope you get involved as an adviser of something.[ I mean where to buy properties when assisting city slickers ]
I guess they would require some training. I wonder if you could set up a training farm stay somewhere.
Yabby its a lot for any farmer to think about but I know people who would help establish a Free Range Ag school down the track.

The main thing would be the farmer would have to have a lot of support. It would be too much just to say great idea go promote your book.

Goodnight everybody
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 16 November 2006 11:01:23 PM
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PF

Yes Ive had pigs as pets and you are so right when you say they have very expressive eyes.They are such good little mates.

It would be tough to part with them and its easy to see you love your pigs, even in spite of the fact you produce them for market.
Posted by holyshadow, Friday, 17 November 2006 12:27:29 AM
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For Yabby and PF

http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/

http://www.farmonline.com.au/news_daily.asp?ag_id=38820

There is a large interest in Australians' Free Range Farms from overseas.

Students wishing to travel to Australia to study English and a subject often in the past have requested English and farming agriculture[in particular free Range farming.

Just food for thought down the track.

Looks like PACAT are giving WA a touch up on the Live exports Yabby.
PACAT had a wonderful lady Trish Brown years ago
I am unsure where she is at present although I did see that name on RSPCA board somwhere.
Its to be hoped it is the same lady. She would love! yours and PFs book idea.

She has great knowlege in the meat industry and has in the past called for reopening and building new plants to slaughter in Australia.

She was also a big fan of free range farms and I hope you and PF can meet her sometime.

To be helpful to animals we must support the farmers.

Australian farmers are the backbone of this country.
Has anybody done a email Christmass Cards to Woolworths and the big stores to sent out to the public?
Something like I wish as a member of the Australian public wish you a Merry Christmass and request you only supply Free Range Pork to your customers.
I am sure you agree as a supplier of this Industry you have a duty and a reasonsibilty to ensuring your supply comes from humane Practises.

I should think a few million emails from the public might help to sway these giant suppliers to support Free Range Farmers.

No reason they could not promote the method of 'the farmer writing the book by having it at all check outs .

I wont post anymore great ideas because its a great deal to consider.

I am happy to donate those funds whenever requested however it will require other groups such as AA to also support it.

I would like to know if PF would consider the advisory position on NCCAW


Antje
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 17 November 2006 6:44:07 AM
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antje I am not familiar with NCCAW. Could you briefly explain or post a link? Thanks for the ausindustry link - which area should I being looking in?

I am very interested in helping small farmers get started in free range farming. This place is a 24/7 job however and I dont get away much. I do invite visits to the farm to see how we do things and dispell the fear that pigs are dangerous if they are not penned. They can cause harm, but with understanding the nature of the animal, that can be avoided.

I have been mulling over a few ideas in the book line and thought of interviewing some of the old timers in the area that used to farm pigs free range before the whole intensive idea got started. It would be good to have more than just my ideas as i see free range as a system that incorporates the care of my land and the environment as well. ?

This thread is a bit annoying with its 2 post limit, anyone have ideas for another in the general comment area?
Posted by PF, Friday, 17 November 2006 12:20:14 PM
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Well I for one, certainly wish PF well, if she decides to take
on the free range pig farming book project. I believe that she has
the intelligence,aptitude and care for animals, to do it well,
if she decides to go ahead with it.

I certainly think that she could make a difference for free range
pig farming. Its pointless people going to Woolies to ask for
free range pork, if its not being produced. Good information
is a critical part of that and I know of no good sources, easily
available to those who might consider it.

Antje, regards the live sheep trade, I've read Cindy's comments,
but I am getting tired of repeating myself on OLO. I've had
plenty to say so far, if you read my many posts :)

Yes, it seems that Pacat got a grant from Voiceless, so they
put up some posters, made some noise, but its all like a broken
record, or like the Hare Krishna chanting down in Fremantle.

Thats all great for armchair animal libbers wanting to feel better,
but its not going to make a scrap of difference.

Fact is nobody is putting up any real, concrete solutions. Just
telling Govts to "do something", achieves nothing. I have heard
of no concrete, realistic proposals from Andrew Bartlett either.

Fact is that WA is booming, the mining industry is sucking up
all excess workers, meatworks simply cannot get staff. When they
try to bring them in from overseas, Govt red tape stops them.

All these armchair animal libbers might mean well, but it seems
to me that they don't have a clue about the reality of the situation
here in WA.

Cindy, where are all these workers? Do you have a few hundred up
your sleeve there? Fact is that meatworks can't cope now, let alone
without live sheep ships to move another 3 million.

The reality is that sheep would die in the paddocks without the
live sheep trade. No animal libber group has put forward a
solution to solve this, just more chanting, just like the
Hare Krishnas...
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 17 November 2006 3:15:50 PM
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Antje, wonderful idea; I was just about to start writing my Christmas cards and will surely hand a few to the managers of the supermarkets and butchers in my area.
Yabby, even if it looks pointless at this stage, perhaps FR pork is not being produced enough because people do not ask for it. It would perhaps be financially risky for a battery farmer to convert to FR if there’s no demand.
If a farmer thinks about converting, perhaps one of the first things s/he would want to know is whether there is a demand for FR pork.

Oink, oink, PF, great that you are gathering some ideas for the planning of your book. I like your idea of interviews with old timers- you and them working together will produce a sea of knowledge that otherwise would be wasted.

I did some googling and came across a link you may find interesting and may also help you get some ideas for the layout etc. If you don’t already know about it, it’s site showing a book on FR pig farming which you can download at no cost from CIWF (Compassion in World Farming).
http://www.ciwf.org.uk/education/gapresources.html
I hope the link works.

The idea of starting a new thread just on the subject of FR pig farming is a good one- perhaps simply called: “Free Range Pig Farming”.

Perhaps we could transport the most valid information written on this Babe thread to the new general discussion so that it is not lost or needed to be repeated. I won’t mind using my posts for that transfer because you farmers and experts on the matter have much more to discuss and info to offer than I can. Just let me know what you want to have transferred.

I’d also like to suggest to type out the full meaning of any new abbreviations e.g. when a new organisation is introduced to make it more friendly and easier to understand for new people joining in.
Posted by Celivia, Friday, 17 November 2006 9:57:13 PM
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Hello PF et al - PF, it's great to see you are considerng sharing your wealth of knowledge out there. NCCAW is the National Consultative Committee for Animal Welfare, and you can find more information on the website of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry (is that the right way round?) If you do a search for Dept Agriculture Australia you'll find it, then go to animal health and welfare link. It comprises people from farming lobbies, government entities, and "animal welfare representatives" - I think Glenys is on it still, and Hugh Wirth(less) used to be before he was moved on (that's so they can say they "consulted widely with animal welfare representatives" - who are usually totally outnumbered. It seems to be meeting at about six monthly intervals in recent times. Its reports are available at that website too. Hope that's helpful...and I agree with you about the limitation to two posts.
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 18 November 2006 12:20:17 AM
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Hello Everybody

Yabby I have taken your advise and started another thread dedicated to finding Alternatives to Live exports. It said it can take up to 24hrs so keep an eye out.
I agree PF knows how- but we must make sure PF has the support to go along with that.
As usuaul Celiva you have raised good points. I cant say I agree with intensive people requiring 'insentive' to convert to Free Range however. Its not open for debate. Free Range Celivia is just another word for common decency. The idea of assisting people to divert or start new Free Range piggeries PF had is a good one. Your idea Celiva to open a public trust fund to improve conditions is also good. The Christmas card idea was meant to be in the form of emails. Something that each customer can pick the subject line ,ie order for Christmass Ham etc. That way they will have! to go though each email. Cards are easily thrown in a bin.-' Not enough inconveince'. Save the trees and email them "through to their orders department". These big stores must be made accountable. If they said to the cruel intensive insentive people- yo divert to free Range or we will introduce our own Farms it would happen rather quickly.

Nicky rightfully raised the issue of the fact according to our shameful laws the only had to enlargen the pens by few centmeters. She has a good point and I am sure the public wont settle for that. I guess a one only offer to the intensive people and Woolworths - let us have you to divert to free range or we will do our own.

Nicky perhaps you could speak to your comrades.?

I see we have a new poster Welcome Holy.
PF I agree about the two threads only and I noticed when I applied for the new thread it said two only as well. I must have missed something because wasn't it always four posts every twenty four hours? Does anybody know why its now two?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 18 November 2006 1:12:54 AM
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I agree - free range IS basically common decency, and does not deserve incentives to be paid for it. I think part of the problem is the management and staff of the supermarkets; God knows how they train these people, but if you ask for free range anything they just look blank. They are totally clueless. Persuading them to push for change from the bottom up would also help. It's the same if you ask whether cosmetics and other household type products have been tested on animals.
It follows therefore that there has to be absolute truth in labelling (some things that claim not to be tested on animals, for example, may have had ingredients tested on them, or may not have been tested in Australia but have been somewhere overseas).
One idea might be to get stickers about intensive pig farming which people can slip onto intensively farmed ham and pork in the supermarkets refrigerators - it's not difficult to do if you're quick and unobstrusive, and/or have people outside supermarkets with flyers. PF, do you have any ideas for us here?
I don't know how it became two posts in 24 hours, I'm afraid - I found this months ago, then came back again recently.
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 18 November 2006 6:04:04 PM
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I know I am harping on about the AA campaign, but they have a great set of free postcards to send out to supermarkets, food outlets etc. They are very well done. Just go to the pledge page http://www.savebabe/pledge and get them sent out. There is a set of flyers also. They have done that part of the work already. Coming up to xmas is a great time to be sending them out. Antje, the email idea is a great one too. I wouldnt be surprized if AA had something on their site, I will have a look.

Nicky - what a sneaky idea with the stickers! Love it. Remember those store cameras though.

This thread started as an article thats why it only has 2 posts. Antje did you start yours in articles or general?
Posted by PF, Sunday, 19 November 2006 6:14:39 AM
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Yes an excellent idea about the emails, Antje, I will do that.
And Nicky's idea is great too. I did something similar with the caged eggs. Everytime I go to the supermarket I open a few (4 or 5) boxes of eggs to put in a note.
In the free range boxes I say: "Thank you from the chickens for choosing free range eggs".
In the caged boxes I say: "You can change the lives of chickens by buying free range next time you shop".

Yes the rules must have changed for starting a new general discussion. Two posts per 24 hours.

The rules for starting a new general discussion:

* Do not divert article discussions into general discussion threads. (I suppose that means we can't transfer posts from this discussion to a new one).

* Ensure that the discussion you are about to start does not already exist elsewhere under a different name, or filed under a different category.

* Moderators review all discussions before they are posted to the site. Our moderators reserve the right to reject any threads that are deemed inappropriate without notice or explanation.

* Maximum of 2 new threads in any given 24 hour period.

* Comments cannot be longer than 350 words.

* Please observe all Forum Rules.

* Any URLs you type will automatically be converted to hyperlinks
Posted by Celivia, Sunday, 19 November 2006 2:27:47 PM
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Sorry people I made a mistake- the 'two per 24 hours' rule is for new threads.

It still says you can make 4 posts per article:

* Maximum of 10 posts in any given 24 hour period.

* No more than 4 posts per article in any given 24 hour period.

* Comments cannot be longer than 350 words.

Sorry for the confusion.
Posted by Celivia, Sunday, 19 November 2006 2:39:39 PM
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Hello everybody.

No disrespect meant to anybody but much more needs to be done.. We just spent the biggest part of the weekend going from Woolworths to Coles to all the major suppliers asking for Free Range Pork.

I never knew there were so many shops on the Gold Coast.
I am exhausted.

Not one! Store has it. I felt like crying then I got angry that people care so little where their meat comes from.

Nobody has heard of the AA voiceless Campaign and I am talking about Woolworths managers.etc . We need to get in there and actually make changes. Promote PFs idea of introducing more free range farmers into the market.
Yabby is right you can’t promote something that doesn’t exist. People just think you’re strange. We have our consultant advisor on tap.

Nicky Celivia do you want to start a shame list? I have a string of managers names and comments here as a starter.
Perhaps people could sit out the front of stores with those loud car boot stereos with recorded messages. Wonder if we could get uni kids to put out stickers..

I could print something Free on the web site or perhaps Nicky and Celivia.

`. Hey PF I wonder if their guy who worked on the babe film would visit your farm and maybe do another short story. Totally wild might help as well.

Nicky you sneaky little thing. I missed that. Go to the top of the class! You too Celivia- great stuff

Nicky I am wondering if you have any idea what we can do to stop false advertising. Already some clever stores have banners up around here reading
Organic Pork , turkeys indicating free range. People don’t know! The difference
Under the trade practice act I guess there is a law against false advertising or misleading the public. Trouble is they have no teeth. Who is policing this? What about ACCC. It seems they must have had a meeting or at least ex changed emails because these organic free range banners are popping up everywhere. Any ideas guys?
Antje
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 19 November 2006 7:22:12 PM
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I think I need to explain organic pork. Organic would be the ultimate in free range. The standards are very high. All organically reared pigs are free range. They have the added benifit of not being fed any kind of chemicals, antibiotics, artificials etc. If someone is selling certified organic, it is definately free range.

I feel that free range meats are only at the ground level. There is not enough public awareness to create the needed demand yet. We can only keep chiselling away at it and making people aware of intensive farming. Remember, it is only 30 years old. My parents would only remember how pigs were kept as extra income on our dairy and I think thats how most think of them. Thats the picture in my head when I think of pigs when i was a kid. Thats the problem. Too many people think thats how they are still raised, suplimental income fed fresh milk or whey. Most farms had a few back when i was a kid and they were never kept in cages.
Posted by PF, Sunday, 19 November 2006 9:23:16 PM
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Hi all
PALE (is it okay to use the accronym?) Your comment about the TPA is interesting because I've just been involved in a bit of enquiry about it. It seems that you can misrepresent anything to anyone as long as the anyone is not someone who would be disadvantaged by purchasing the product. In this case, a claim would be valid. It is excellent to have the "organic" terminology clarified - thanks PF, I have wondered. Is it then safe to assume that cosmetics/household products claiming to be organic will not have been tested at any time on animals then?
I agree, most people think (or like to think, as a cop-out) that all animals are farmed in beautiful pastures by happy farmers, nothing like what happens to the vast majority of pigs. PF, have you been inside an intensive piggery? Others I know who have say that the pigs literally go insane from the confinement, develop sores that don't heal, are lame with bone deformities - all that and more.
But this is about getting it out there. I think we could each deliver printed cards to the managers and meat managers of all supermarkets in our area, and explain to them the difference between cruelty legislation and codes of practice, and show them the pictures (I've got the film footage on my laptop). Also, put the stickers on the products in the refrigerators and hand flyers out. I think there's value in getting into the schools too, and the kids will then prevail on the parents.
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 19 November 2006 10:50:05 PM
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hello Everybody.

PF it certainly is good to have it explained like that. Nicky that info on your computer sounds great. Also sure use whatever you like. How about we go back and take photes and put them up along with names and managers comments? I can assure you the banners flying around do mislead the public. Wendy spoke with the supplier who raved on for half an hour about why he grew is ORGANIC Pork in intensive conditions. ie Rash, Sun burn. He reckons they are not given any antibiotics? So how can you have such intensive conditions and not use drugs? I think being a producer he is possibly a bit cluey [hence all the signs and banners flapping all around.]
So if you had a child who was alergic to certain drugs and these guys misleading the public surely its a job for ACCC.
I might leave you Nicky to ponder that while I try to do a bit on live exports.
The truth is there are no free range places other than PF and a handful more.
We go back to Celivia's idea of a public trust fund and input from Woolworth and major outlets to covert all intensive piggiers into free Range. 'OR' We bring funds in from overseas to create all sorts of free range farms and plants. PF may I ask you. The plant you send your supply to, Is it AQIS accredited or for domestic market?
If somebody helped set you up as a consultant to train and accredited free range pork farmers would you be interested. Has Animals Australia or voiceless offered to help in any other way.
Nicky I just think PF face should be known Australia wide.
Look Nicky I know you will be angered by me saying this but for goodness same AA have run these things for years! nothings changed expect we now have far more just like live exports.
I just think we should be dealing with the good farmers and setting up lots of alternatives to both intensive farming and live exports.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 20 November 2006 5:35:21 AM
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You should have a read of this
http://www.apl.au.com/media/B%20-%20Free%20Range%20Pigs%20and%20Sustainability%20of%20Outdoor%20Pig%20Prod….pdf

No wonder companies like Woolworths say they cant support free range piggeries. APL say they do not support one system or the other - crap!

Antje - there is no accreditation system in place yet for free range pork. Humane Choice will be great, but they are taking their sweet time getting it up and running. I am always happy to help anyone that wants to get started in this business.

Nicky - I have been in quite a few intensive piggeries and all those things you mentioned do happen. What you have to know though is that a lot of farms have done away with the sow stalls, not the farrowing crates though. When you have seen the antics of pigs (and sows) at play in a paddock, thats when it really hits home how cruel it is to lock these animals up. As for going crazy - I think they would feel the same as any of us locked in a cage and never being able to excerise. They have a very short life (maybe thats a blessing for them ?)

I think a lot of confusion (re organic) happens when one store sells both, and that does happen a lot because of the unavailablity of so many things - like organic pork. There are very obvious differences in the meat of intensive and free range. Intensive is pale pink grey ususally while FR is almost red. There is a vast difference in taste also.
Posted by PF, Monday, 20 November 2006 3:32:49 PM
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PF
Sorry I didnt see this before I dont get a notice when anybody posts so I have to go in looking all the time.

Well I guess it takes a farmer to understand the good old ALP.

Talk about poly"s Dont start me. As an animal lover you would expect to hear howls of protests from the good Andrew Bartlett about ALP and their games.

Nothing. We hear nothing PF. The groups are led around by the nose taking directions from a party thats basically in bed with labour.

Dont even start me. Yes Verna did a good job.
You notice quitley and pretty much single handed.
Well I dont know what offers have been put to you by AA ad Voiceless to help get the Free Range pork Farms on the menu Australia wide.
Probably none. Let me know about the suggestion of being included on the board.
Please do not contact him direct before I have a chance to ask that you are excepted otherwise you will put me in a difficult postion.
The free range Farmers support web page is coming along[slowly]
I am just going to put up free leads so farmers can go in and take a look.
All the enquires will be from overseas with offers through several avenues to vaule add and become farmers exporters.
People can go in and ask for their farm to be added to the free range list.
Its going to takes ages I am afraid.[Its for all animals and I do understand pork is different]
Did you contact Free Ranger? I require to know if you are interested in the board because I am already well overtime.
Let me know if you come with a few friends to start a co op of supply for free Range with some of your contacts.
Goodnight Antje
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 21 November 2006 3:30:44 AM
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It would seem Farmer, that Yabby is targeting you believing you to be someone else who he has obviously been instruemental in having banned.Well that should make him proud.

After a read around it would seem that he makes a lot of assumptions and assertions based on nothing other than his misguided predjudice.

This person he mistakes you for, he obviously has made assumptions about her to .

Best just to ignore..he's bored.

This forum is struggling, has almost come to a standstill..nothing to entice new posters in, and then you have 'assets' like Yabby who try to drive away the odd person who dares puts their head in.Its clear new blood and or ideas are not welcome.

Stagnation seems to be the preferred state.
Posted by holyshadow, Friday, 24 November 2006 2:07:10 PM
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Hello Holly
You must think me rude to ignore you. I do apoligise its just hard when you only get so many words and you get side tracked all the time.
For a while when Celiva was posting good ideas and everybody was chipping in I thought we may actually be going to do something united for animals.

Yes all the new ones dont stick around for too long. i am happy to do anything towards working to help farmers and support free range farmers.
Trouble is all everybody wishes to do is swap insults.

If it keeps up I will stop posting myself

Holly sorry its not more cheerful but for what its worth I am really sorry the threads have been reduced to nothing.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 24 November 2006 7:31:51 PM
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PeopleAgainstLiveExports,

I was talking about the whole of OLO.

It would seem that on every thread there is just no momentum, the reference wasnt just to this thread.

That is why I suppose, I see a certain poster making the problem even worse and I wonder where his thinking is at.At this rate he'll have noone to talk to..so when I say the forum is suffering thats what I was reffering to.

I would advise just keep going..if you see a new name make them feel welcome and speak out if they are being harrassed.
Posted by holyshadow, Friday, 24 November 2006 8:44:30 PM
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Holy
Perhaps your right. I dont get time to go into all the other threads
I do this normally in a stollen moment or the early hours of a morning in my own time. I was speaking only on what I know. I know there was about five people that are no longer posting and I also know why. I thought I would try to keep something going for the animals sake and them as well after all their efforts.
As I said for a while there on this thread I really thought we may have been able to get something happening to commence a fanchise arrangment of free range farmers working with PF and supporting the book.
Celivias idea of a public trust was good as well.
I cant do much more than offer to help Holly
Its all rather sad.
Not only for the animals but for a few good free range farmers as well
Antj
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 25 November 2006 3:40:19 AM
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"I really thought we may have been able to get something happening to commence a fanchise arrangment of free range farmers working with PF and supporting the book"

Now that comment is sad. Why do you feel that nothing can happen unless pale takes control? I have made it clear in the past, I will have no affiliation with your group. I appreciate that we are on the same side, and appreciate also your suggestions, but as far as a 'franchise arrangement' no way in hell. My farm is independant and will stay that way.

I would like to make it clear that there has never been any talk of a franchise and would appreciate it pale if you would refrain from from inferring such things.

There are many, many ways to work towards animal welfare without being attached to a group. I feel I do far more to better the lives of farm animals than anyone sitting around at a desk thinking up 'meetings'.
Posted by PF, Saturday, 25 November 2006 6:32:22 AM
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Hi all
I've been away from this one for a while, so I don't really understand what, if anything has transpired between PALE and PF, but I didn't think that there was any sort of a business relationship in place.
PF, hang in there and keep doing what you are doing, you are to be admired very much - for what you are doing for your animals as well as for the invaluable information (to me especially) you have provided here
I got my "pig pledge" msterial from Animals Australia, and it is extremely impressive. I'm going to get some more of the supermarket cards (I can't really use the restaurant ones, because I never eat out - but my colleagues are going to take care of those), because I can go to a number of supermarkets with them, and now (better informed as I am) I can actually talk to the managers there about this.
PF, at the end of the day - if I tried to keep my dogs like pigs are kept in intensive farms, I would be prosecuteed. Have you any data on the percentage of pigs kept this way?
Also - I read that APL stuff, and you are quite correct. But they also say that animal advocates are training with foreign terrorist groups like Al Quaeda, so maybe they are running scared.
All the very best,
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 25 November 2006 6:34:21 PM
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PF Everybody

No the offer to you as you know was in a form of a donation towards supporting A your book B You personally as you said you would love to help others get involved in free range pork farming. I was supporting you as an advisor.
Ithink there has been some misunderstanding PALE People Against Live exports is a NFP working to educate and bring about changes to live exports" and Intensive farming.
PALE also supports[amoung others Global Australian All Lind Meats.
They supply contacts with overseas people interested to form co joint vetures. All services are free of charge to both Australian farmers and overseas contacts.
Down the track they is a MOU between the investor to donate back to animals welfare.
I hope that has clearned that up for you. Other than donating to your book and supporting you I have no interest in your farm and certainly dont know how you reached that conclusion.
I am very busy and due to leave soon so best wishes
Antj
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 25 November 2006 8:36:04 PM
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"It would seem Farmer, that Yabby is targeting you believing you to be someone else who he has obviously been instruemental in having banned.Well that should make him proud."

Now now Ozgirl, no need to get paranoid lol. As a matter of fact,
which I am sure that Graham would verify, I have never even
recommended the deletion of a single post on OLO!

If I made a mistake it was perhaps to overestimate your abilities,
sorry for that.

Fact is however, that we have had many fantasy posters on the
animal welfare threads. Some of those keep turning up with new
names, telling their sob story in the same predictable way,
in the same style, time after time.

My bulldust alert is switched on, on any animal welfare threads,
unlike some of the other threads. When people talk absolute rubbish
or contradict themselves, I tend to point out the rubbish and
contradictions.

Sorry if I overestimated you Ozgirl, but fact is that fantasy
characters are part of the animal welfare threads and IMHO, Benny
the farmer is yet another one of them.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 25 November 2006 8:55:44 PM
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'Sixty Victorian barristers have formed a panel to act pro bono representing protesters, animal welfare groups and the RSPCA, and plans to target live animal exports, battery chickens and the whale industry. Graham Mckewan says the Animal Protection legislation in Victoria is not adequately enforced. He maintains that the RSPCA is under funded, despite the State Government insisting that it has tripled funding to the Association in recent times. Government's around Australia have agreed to abandon voluntary codes of practise in animal husbandry in favour of enforceable national standards. The National Farmers Federation was not available to comment.
Added to that you have a large team of lawyers and silks all working in their own time five members of PALE regarding alternative exports as well as the above.
Benny is a farmer and I suggested to Graham he call a number I gave him to speak with Ben the last time you posted sch silly comments.
You dont have to be a Rocket Scientist to be able to figure out decent farming and slaughtering here Yabby.
Rosger fletcher I think left school at fourteen he said for memory.
Your right about one thing Yabby and that is the girls on the coast are working to bring about changes and finally the others are seeing this can! be done through a court.
That has been pales biggest problem to convince AA this is the way to go .
Its great stuff and you will see a lot more of it Yabby.
Nicky [if willing then] will assist along with lawyers and RSPCA QLD pale AFIC Small abattoir association to help establish the next stage which will be adopting co joint ventures as Government policy and Austrade reps and MLA and the likes to be promoting it in many countries.
That will be the most importnant step because without alternatives we cant change much.
No we cant stamp out live exports overnight but if we put all these practises together we can honestly say we have a plan to phase it out.
You Yabby would best spend your time working on ALP
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 26 November 2006 6:35:48 AM
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"Benny is a farmer and I suggested to Graham he call a number I gave him to speak with Ben"

Ahh, just as I expected, Benny the farmer is somebody whom
you just happen to know :)

I've told you what the meat industry needs. Large, highly
automated, efficient works, get rid of red tape, get rid
of piles of taxes, get some processors who don't want to
buy sheep for nothing, but will pay farmers a reasonable
price, free up labour laws so that they can get the labour
they need.

Small regional works simply don't have the volumes of
scale to be efficient, with such high labour and compliance
costs. Red tape is so bad in WA, that the Govt run
pig saleyards has just been closed down by another Govt
department, for being unsafe. A new sheep saleyard has
been delayed for a couple of years, it seems by red tape
from yet another Govt dept. Even the Govt is bogged down
by its own red tape! How private enterprise is expected
to function efficiently, with so many bureaucrats running
around policing each other, beats me
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 26 November 2006 9:55:26 AM
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Yabby,

Dont get me wrong, wasnt Farmer supposed to be Ozgirl.?

Now that he/she is gone, your now changing your focus.

Cant seem to make up your mind there Yabby..brain getting a bit fuzzy?

As for your assertion ..'my bulldust alert is switched on..' I wonder how accurate it is at spotting your own?

IMHO Yabby you are suffering from 'oldtimers disease'..
Posted by holyshadow, Sunday, 26 November 2006 1:54:08 PM
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Yabby
Then get cracking and take on your State Government and get some of the 'red tape' fixed- In case you had not noticed there are people posting on here who would care to help you with the task.

Why on earth are you picking on other farmers instead of taking on the WA Government. Explain to the public exacly what you mean in language the readser will understand yabby.

Of course we know a lot of farmers.

Free Ranger was a great loss to this forum. Free Ranger is a x journalist a farmer with great knowledge. Same as the Victorian farmers you got rid of. Same as Benny. A three generation farmer who used to load the ships in his younger days and has owned butcher shops.
There is around another half a dozen who have stopped posting simple because they dont want to get into personal insults like little school children.

If you keep going there will be nobody left for you to talk to Yabby. Anybody with an once of brains wont continue to loose time posting here while you carry on with your personal insults because people are too busy for such nonesense.

Get cracking and set out what it is step by step in WA that needs changing and other will support you.

Have a nice day.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 27 November 2006 5:09:55 AM
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ROFL - well if that isnt a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black!

Always has to be a whipping boy on these threads doesnt there ...
Posted by PF, Monday, 27 November 2006 6:21:34 AM
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PF, very good point! I think that even pale would have had
to laugh at her own last post :)
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 27 November 2006 8:08:22 AM
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Yabby states,

"I tend to point out rubbish and contradictions'..therein lies your arrogance and negative position on this and every other thread, you do not respect the right of other people to have a veiwpoint, right or wrong, unless its in line with yours, having said that it never is it seems.

Who are you to be the keeper of whats right and wrong on here.Surely if you state your veiwpoint and resist the urge to discredit others, that would speak for itself.

Change other peoples minds with the fact and sound logical arguements, instead of redicule.

Can you manage that?

You are a low key stirrer and its wearing thin with a lot of people.
Posted by holyshadow, Monday, 27 November 2006 10:20:11 AM
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Holyshadow, you were clearly never a member of your school
debating team I suggest that you do a google search to
find out what debate is all about. It is essentially
a contest of argumentative skill, where people are
encouraged to analyse complex issues, reason from their
evidence, listen to others arguments and refute them
logically.

Debate is not about having a housewives coffee club,
where everybody tells everybody else, how they feel.

On the question of live exports, I am clearly
diamatetrically opposed to the views of all the rest,
thats fine, I will put make my arguments based on
solid evidence. What you or anyone else thinks of me,
I really don't care about.

For some reason the animal welfare threads attract alot
of people who wear their hearts on their sleeves. Its all
about what they feel and how they feel, not about reasoned
thought. That makes good debate extremely difficult.

On the other hand we have somebody like PF, who is clearly
intelligent and who can look at both sides of an argument
and think about the issues from various perspectives,
much to her credit. I can amicably agree to disagree with
her on some points, agree on others. So far all I've
had from you in comparison, is one big bitchfest about
how you feel. Why can't you think more rationally, as
PF clearly can?
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 27 November 2006 3:20:07 PM
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I hate to state the obvious here but Yabby..why dont you and PF tie the knot sometime soon .Then you can give it a break!! 'It' being the nauseating and embarrassing suck job you do on her on a daily basis.

Pf is not so shallow and disagreeable as aperson that she requires constant soothing and embalming of her ego is she?

That would make her exhausting and very high maitanence as a friend/partner.

And yabby I want you to explain ' the holy grail of creek fed' for me.

I am most interested in what exactly that is.

Since you are so deriding of another poster on here on this same subject, was that Farmer or Ozgirl?..your 'bullsh it radar' kind of got a bit befuddled..I thought you were so astute in your suspicions?

Oh and I did ask you to prove your assertion that you ARE IN ACTUAL FACT a farmer. Can you..are you sure your not an a pretend farmer?

How can you prove it?
Posted by holyshadow, Monday, 27 November 2006 3:44:22 PM
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Yabby, I think the terminology you were looking for above (last night) was "economies of scale" vs "economies of size" - in order to be credible with your arguments, you need to know the difference (i.e. understand the simple economics).
The economic rationalism behind live exports is dead simple too - the government uses taxpayers funds to prop up the industry by waiving AQIS fees which it charges local processors. Furthermore, state government contribute as well because there is no payroll tax, and other expenses like OH&S. THAT is why exporters pay more (if indeed they do) - they do not face the government's expenses as local industry/ies do.
There seem to be some people here who have brought issues from elsewhere (other threads?) to this post. Let's get over it and move on - leave the bickering out and stick with the issue at hand.
Nicky.
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 27 November 2006 7:16:58 PM
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Hi everyone- long time no see. I haven't been chased away by anyone on here :)) but I have had nothing worthwhile to add to the conversation.

For the record, I am not a group person and not a loud person so you won't catch me with loudspeakers outside Woolworths- I prefer to do my own little things, like talking to butchers and supermarket managers to tell them what is wanted and needed, buying all the free range meats and sticking to my pork pledge.

Pigfarmer, I have been told by some butchers exactly the same things that you showed in that link: that FR pigfarms are not possible in Australia because of sunburn, draught etc.
It would be good to have this list refuted: point by point to show that those arguments are invalid.

Making shame-lists of shops is also not my style- it's so negative that it might work against animal groups; I rather just talk to people.

I also want to say that I am delighted about the debut of a political animal party in the Dutch government now- and I hope that Australia will follow one day in the near future. This will hopefully change things for the animals.

I'll paste the article in my next post for possible new people who might not have read it. Here's the link also:
http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/Actions-Netherlands/PoliticalParty4Animals.ht
Posted by Celivia, Tuesday, 28 November 2006 8:13:00 PM
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A victory for the animals

Party for the Animals gains 2 parliamentary seats in the Netherlands

Amsterdam, 11/23/2006 – On Wednesday, November 22, the Dutch political
Party of the Animals gained 2 seats in the 150-member legislature in The
Netherlands. This makes the Netherlands the first country in the world in
which a party for animal welfare is elected into a representative body of
the people.

“We are thrilled with such a wonderful result of our campaign”, says party
leader Marianne Thieme. “Finally we can start realizing our party’s
highest priority, namely ending all animal suffering. We want a
constitutional amendment, guaranteeing animals the right to freedom from
pain, fear and stress caused by humans. Let’s begin with easing the
suffering of the hundreds of millions of cows, pigs and chickens stuck in
factory farming”, she said. Thieme feels success in the Netherlands could
help the movement elsewhere. One of the party’s purposes is to be an
inspiration for other countries and animal rights activists.

A growing number of Dutch people are wondering why it is necessary to have
economic interests prevail over ethical considerations when it comes to
animal welfare and the interests of nature and the environment. “The Party
for the Animals expresses this concern that so many Dutch have”, says
Esther Ouwehand, number two on the party list, explaining the party’s
victory.

The party and viewpoints of party leader Marianne Thieme received a great
deal of media attention. After law school and a brief corporate career,
she decided to enter politics as an advocate for all animals and founded
the Party for the Animals. A large number of well known Dutch authors such
as Jan Wolkers, Kees van Kooten, Maarten ’t Hart and Harry Mulisch have
joined the Party for the Animals. 20 of the party’s 30 candidates are
opinion leaders in the Netherlands. Also a number of business people have
contributed large sums of money to the Party for the Animals, allowing for
a full-fledged political campaign.

For more information about the Party for the Animals see

http://www.partijvoordedieren.nl/content/view/129
Posted by Celivia, Tuesday, 28 November 2006 8:13:43 PM
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Hello Everybody
I am not posting as a group either. I have told Graham Young over and over again i only asked to post as a animal lover and a ,member of the public not pale or any other group.
Cleary Graham thinks he can extract another eleven hundred dollars membership fee by putting the tag at the bottom but nothing will change the fact i am still me Graham
I think we have to shame the large stores into making changes.
Isnt that what AA and the pork pledge are doing.
Allowing animals to continue to suffer while we tippy toe around [just in case] we upset somebody isnt what I beleive will help the animals.
Nicky when can you sent your details for contact. I understand you have other matters but I need to know you want to do this before close of business.
regards
Antje Struthmann
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 28 November 2006 10:08:01 PM
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Nicky

Message from George Shane Mark. As we speak they have a rep in Egypt and earlier this year the Malaysian Government returned for further meetings. There were was agreements and other documents signed which will be a first large step towards phasing out live exports. You will understand I cant disclose anymore here about it.
I was aked to inform you that simply by browsing the web pages will give no indication of whats being done.
'I am passing on a message for George'.
He asked me to ask you one last time for a contact so he can call you before he breaks for the season.
If you want to help the animals Nicky this is something that will make a difference.
They are offering as I said before five thousand dollars to get this report done. This also largely invovles RSPCA QLD.
I am NOT asking you to start now just give George some contact to you please!. It is more important than posting on OLO if you dont mind me saying. This is a genuine offer Nicky. As I said before you would be working with a high profile legal team however they dont have the time to prepair the proposal themselves but happy to assist and pay a good salary. However George or Shane must be able to speak with you soon before their break so they know either way.

There office is extreamly busy so we only have a few weeks.
Would you like me to post an email address for you to make contact?
If you dont want to do the report Nicky thats ok George will advertise but he needs to know urgently.
Kind regards
Antje
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 30 November 2006 6:40:10 AM
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