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The Forum > Article Comments > Give ‘babe’ some wriggle room > Comments

Give ‘babe’ some wriggle room : Comments

By Mirko Bagaric, published 9/5/2006

We are camped somewhere near the base of the moral mountain when it comes to pig farming.

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Yabby, we agree. “Farming of animals does not need to be cruel”, but the majority of it today is cruel.

Let’s look at the subject of this article – pigs (though factory farming also affects chickens (meat and eggs) and, to a growing extent, cattle and sheep).

In Australia up to 62% of sows may be placed in sow stalls for part of their reproductive cycle and around 26% are housed in stalls for most of that time.

More than 90% of growing pigs are raised in confinement.

These figures are from the Voiceless report referred to in the article (available from http://www.voiceless.org.au/Get_Informed/Factory_Farming/Pig_Industry_Report.html).

If there is a move toward less cruel farming – hallelujah! That’s exactly what this article is calling for.

And in your reply to Lizey, you raise the old, ridiculous argument that the populations of farmed animals would spiral upward if we didn’t do the 'decent thing' and kill them for food. Crazy stuff, Yabby!! The move toward veganism will happen gradually. Decreased demand will cause producers to reduce breeding. Eventually, no demand will mean no producers. If it also means that domesticated cattle and sheep become virtually extinct – so be it.
Posted by MOS, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 5:28:00 PM
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Yabby, I hate to think that you believe eating meat is saving animals from a long and painful death. If we stop breeding animals at the unnatural rate we do for food and indeed as pets, the population will drop. And as the remaining animals would be our responsibility, they wouldn’t starve to death.
No, I don’t know what animals are thinking as they are trucked across hundreds of kilometres but I can guess that it is nothing good. When you see trucks with cattle in them drive past, the ones on the outer try to stick their heads out the side to get to some fresh air. I can only sympathise for the animals who can’t reach the sides at all.

I don’t see how the ecologists were not fools because if they were trying to conserve the species they released into the wild, they failed and let 99% die.

Yes, wild kangaroos do die in severe droughts but we as humans can prevent a large percentage of animal suffering so why don’t we? Does the fact that some people die a painful death from cancer justify murder? If I killed a young child, would you congratulate me and say I had saved him/her from a possible painful death by a disease?

“If an animal is suffering and cannot be helped, what would you do? Let it suffer until it dies or kill it to save it suffering?”
I would prefer to painlessly euthanize an animal than let one suffer, but killing animals for meat isn’t preventing a painful death but causing one. If we don’t purposely breed billions of animals there won’t be many and definitely not enough to have them die of starvation because of overpopulation.

Pericles, I am actually opposed to people breeding “pets” which is why I would never buy from a breeder or a pet-shop. But I adopted several my animals from a shelter because they were on “death row” and rescued others that were strays, unwanted or whose “owners” had died
Posted by lizey, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 6:24:24 PM
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(Pericles, continued)You compare people having a pet to having a slave and in many cases I agree, people simply buy an animal because they think it will be an entertaining “thing” to have. This is sometimes the same reason people have children, and often both child and animal become neglected when the person realizes that having a full-time responsibility is “too hard”. Sadly many pets are dumped for other people to come and rescue.

Obviously people don’t force their “pets” to do lots of work against their will, but sometimes the idea of “ownership” is still there, but I don’t believe I own my animals, just as I don’t own my other family-members.

No, adopting from a shelter doesn’t support people who continue to breed animals as pets! Buying from the pet-shop does, but with shelters all the animals are rescued or left there by uncaring owners: Not bred for profit!

I am not “passionately in favour" of keeping ‘pets’ at all, just in support of people saving lives, and if they are suitable for animal care, to adopt from a shelter instead of supporting cruel breeders and pet-shops. If people do this, the animal population will rapidly decrease, just as you (and I) would like to happen!

I do not believe neutering an animal is cruel if pain-killers are used! De-sexing actually decreases an animal’s risk of cancer and acts as contraception. People aren’t opposed to contraception in general, so why oppose a painless surgical procedure that acts as one for animals.

I believe that cows, sheep etc. as well as cats and dogs now naturally live in human care. Continual suffering and confinement isn’t natural but if people adequately care for, and don’t kill or hurt the animals in their care; I think it is as natural as it will get for us.

Even if you don’t agree with rescuing animals, there is still no excuse for you to eat meat. I think you will agree that the suffering the meat-industry causes is far worse than any caused by well-meaning people who adopt animals that will otherwise die.
Posted by lizey, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 6:26:23 PM
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MOS, personally I disagree with factory farming. But I don’t think that if you raise animals, in as close as possible to their natural
environment, that the majority of it is cruel. It really depends on the industry.

My understanding is that pigs are placed in farrowing crates during and after birth, as they have a habit of squashing their babies. I certainly believe that pigs run in shelters are fairly happy little critters. There was once a guy who ran a few thousand pigs on a hill in the open. They were bloodthirsty creatures lol, if he’d fallen out of his truck, they would have
devoured him on the spot. Pigs are actually very efficient killers in nature.

Lizey, you sound to me like you don’t have a clue as to what happens out in nature lol We don’t breed animals, they have sex
quite naturally, have babies etc, no need for humans to do anything.

Look at nature anywhere. You have herbivores and you have predator species which live on those herbivores. If there are not enough predators, the herbivores, which have evolved to have huge amounts of offspring, will simply die of starvation. Its basic evolution theory, sheesh..

What is so unnatural about animals having sex? They have urges just like you do :)

The population will drop in two ways. Either predators, ie wolves,
dingoes, lions, tigers, etc will rip the weakest to bits and eat them, or they will die of starvation if the food runs out. Go and look at what happens in Africa or anywhere else for that matter.

The ecologists weren’t trying to do anything, they were simply letting nature take is course. The only problem was that there were no predators on that island, so the result was mass suffering and starvation by the herbivores.

Ok so you admit that you would kill an animal, rather then let it suffer. I agree with you, only I use different words.

Lizey, animals have sex naturally. We don’t need to interfere to have a huge overpopulation problem
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 9:58:03 PM
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Let's assume for a moment that Lizey and MOS get their way, and the world goes vegan. Would they then insist that the animal kingdom follows suit? Would we be obliged to destroy all non-vegan animals, simply to satisfy Lizey and MOS' sense of fair play?

And might we then be faced with a movement that proclaims that flowers and vegetables are alive too, and why do we think we are so superior to a carrot that we should put it to death simply to - selfishly - keep ourselves alive at the carrot's expense?

Arguments such as these pay absolutely no attention to the results, their protagonists merely wallowing in the self-righteousness of the process.

Feel-good protesting is always very easy, while living with the consequences is quite hard. Ultra-Greens have the same impact; the world they would have us live in - mud-huts back o' Nimbin, as far as I can tell - is not only impractical, it is harsh. I know for a fact that my 80+ year-old mother wouldn't survive a winter without her central heating.

So enjoy your cuddly-bunny dreams about a meat-free future guys. It isn't going to get here in a hurry.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 18 May 2006 2:19:58 PM
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Pericles, with the duest of respect, the questions you put forward are daft.

We are simply trying to convince our fellow humans that what we are doing to nonhuman animals for food is cruel to the animals and bad for the world and us. Nonhuman carnivores generally do not have a choice or the intellectual and moral capacity to make such a choice. Personally, I have no intention of interfering with their lives.

As to plants – sure they’re alive but they do not have a central nervous system and do not feel pain. Even if they did, many more of them are being killed now to feed animals than would be killed in a vegan world. (It takes about 10kg of plant protein to produce 1kg of animal protein).

Simple facts:
• We don’t need meat, dairy or eggs to live healthy and happy lives
• The industries that supply these foods cause extreme harm to the animals and the environment
• Many more humans could be fed if we moved away from a meat based diet
Posted by MOS, Thursday, 18 May 2006 5:36:46 PM
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