"I hope I didn't offend you. It's just that I really want to know what the parameters are for something to be called "free range". Are you able to explain that - in particular the part about using farrowing crates?"

Nicky - I apologise if I have lumped you into the catagory of trouble maker over that question, but it is something that really gets up my nose - so called animal welfare groups that want to bring discredit to farmers that are doing their best for their animals. No one is going to stop the farming of animals, so why hinder the ones that are doing the right thing. Anyway ...

We do not use farrowing crates - they have all been dismantled.

The sow stalls (seen on most wlefare sites) have had all side rails removed, just leaving the head stall area over a trough. There is nothing left to even hold the sows in place. This allows the sows to eat without being bullied and pushed away by the sows next to them. If thats not a clear description let me know. The shed containing this set up, is opened to the sows at set 'meal times' when they come in from the paddocks to eat grain. We also make the most of this time to catch sows that need to be moved to the farrowing area, vaccinations etc. It is a good management tool.

Anyone can just stick pigs in a paddock, leave them there and call them free range. Free range by neglect is not acceptable either. Our system takes a lot more time and effort but the welfare of the pigs is that important to us.

I do hope that your interest in this is sincere, unlike other posters. I am happy to answer any questions for those truly interested.

Yabby,,

Im sure you thought you got me on the 'bones of the economy ' talk and thats fine..I dont want to trifle over these things when its not really what I was getting at anyway..

I just think its a little begrudging of you to question why anyone on here needs to justify reasons for posting.
What are yours?
It doesnt matter really does it.?I do happen to know the pple at the PALE office are hardworking pple and do not sit at the keyboard all day long.No more or less than you anyway and you are quick to tell us that just because you put up a post here and there that you are still a hardworking farmer...That is my point.

I believe you are...:) so lets give pple we dont know the benefit of the doubt because after all we DONT really know do we and its hard to gauge the true character of a person thru a few posts on a forum.It is also true that some of us are more articulate than others in posting styles and convey theyre points more clearly..this does not make those pple better pple than those who are not so talented.

I know some pretty awful mean ppple who could talk the head of the Pope.I wouldnt give you a cracker for any of them.

Ozgirl
Thanks for being fair. Celivia as well. In a nut shell I want to see all the money raised through all groups go straight to farmers to improve the conditions. I do not of the believe that veg groups no matter how well intended and how hard they work improve animal welfare. I am not one of those people. Yabby just remember you! said no public money goes into MLA. for goodness sake.! I am busy right now but when I get time I will remind you of that. Today we lost Bing our beautiful grey horse and friend of nineteen years to my friend. I wont be posting for a while because of it and other jobs that need to be done.
There has been some contact regarding your idea celivia of a trust fund to raise money and send it straight to the farmers to add their improvments.
As soon as I know more I will let you know. Also today a reply arrived from voiceless as to their postion regarding people eating meat. They do not endorse people eating meat so there for cant support the reopening of any abattoirs or building of new ones.

Thank you for clearing that up. The question is now in that case I wonder if they are prepared to give the funds donated by the public to the farmers to comply with the new regulations and improve the life of animals awaiting slaughter/ Possibly not. Possibly they may say that would be supporting abattoirs? I dont know. Perhaps ozgirl or somebody would be kind enough to enquire of the other groups just what all the funds are used for if not to go to the animals. PALE is the only group that support farmers and by doing so hope to improve animal welfare. So Yabby that is why I spend time on the Forum

Antje Struthmann

PF, thank you so much for answering my questions. I was honestly not seeking to offend you, but I do need to understand better and I recognize that. You have helped me enormously. My own position is that I am a vegetarian, but that is not a view that I attempt to force upon anyone else. I do encourage my friends to seek out free-range products though, and I hope that your products are so marketed (and that you receive appropriate support for that too). I try to be sensitive to other peoples' positions. I have written to both Coles and Woolworths to say that I am disappointed to note their lack of support for free-range pork products (others in my family purchase them, therefore I felt I had the right to say that). I guess you can't tell me here what brand I should be asking them to stock, which is a pity. I think that improvements to animal welfare will be incremental, but you have taken great strides towards that and shown great leadership in the face of what I am sure must have been some derision from intensive pig farming entities. I wish you all the very best, and thank you again.
Nicky

"It turns out that MLA receives grants only for r&d,
all the rest of the budget is financed by levies etc. So
no taxpayer funds are used."

Above is exactly what I wrote Antje and its exactly true.
As a member of MLA, I get an annual copy of their budget.
Bother to inform yourself and study their accounts, to
see from where money comes and where it goes. If you
don't understand the figures, perhaps somebody can
help you there, who does.

Ozgirl, many people work hard and think they are doing
wondeful things for the world, which is not always the
case. There are plenty of Catholic females singing their
hail mary's outside the abortion clinics, believing that
they are doing good. I don't happen to agree with them.

My point is quite simple. If taxpayers money or public
money is used, for people to fool around on the internet,
ok fair enough. As long as its known and providers of
funds know thats where their money goes. What problem
do you have with public money being accounted for?

I think that churches too should account for what they
do with donated funds btw. If its tucked away in the
Vatican bank, why don't they say so

I do not believe that money raised by animal advocacy groups should be "given" to farmers to "make improvements" under any circumstances. They have got away with keeping pigs in intolerable conditions for far too long, and made their money out of that, now they must use some of that profit, made out of the immense suffering of these sensitive and inteligent animals, to fund their own compliance costs. It was good enough for PF to lead the way, so far as I can gather, without handouts - and all credit must go to him/her, and the (all to few) others like them for doing so.
As for taxpayers' funds being used for people to argue on the internet, Yabby, I am not funded by the taxpayer in any way. I work 40+ hours a week, in a non-related profession, come home and use MY computer and MY time. And I am absolutely certain that the known animal advocacy groups (and I do not include the RSPCA in that) do not receive taxpayers' funds either. Quite rightly, they would be most unlikely (not to say aghast at the crazy notion) to fund farmers to do the right thing - treat animals with some humanity and sensitivity - which they should have been doing all along. Why would they, or their members, want to fund these people to undo the heinous wrongs they have done?
Furthermore, any member of an incorporated organization (as most groups are), is entitled to ask for financial data at any time.
MLA only receiving taxpayers' funds only for R&D? Yabby, give us a BREAK! They are very creative at letting you see what they want you to see. Also Yabby, I meant to clear this up earlier - I think you claimed earlier that the film footage shown on "Sixty Minutes" was old material - I can assure you that it wasn't, it was taken over December 2005/January 2006
Nicky