Belly,

You are correct ... I guess you voted Labor last time.... I know I didn't.

So I am one of the voters that needs to be convinced that Labor can govern... and they aren't looking like it under Beazley.

A squabble amongst the factions, to a Labor voter, is seen as stupidity by non-Labor voters. Factional squabbling looks infantile...

Would you vote for a party that looks like a pack of school kids?

So when Beazley allows these squabbles to go on, he looks weak. OOps another reason people don't vote for Labor. They appear to have a weak leader. And what did he say about his handling of the squabbles
see http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1586281.htm

"Navel gazing" ... Amazing!

It seems that performance is not in your list of priorities and yet that is what most non-Labor voters expect.

So then we look at who is performing?

Well Belly... who do you see doing a great job in the public eye?

I used the example of Tanner to show how poor your party is when it comes to debating... Employers need to be told this stuff by an effective opposition... OOps but they keep forgetting to be effective!

Good luck! But I can see Labor in opposition for another 13 years if you ignore obvious facts.

Many, many people don't like Howard... but he is killing Beazley in the polls. Labor are the most infuriating party... they don't seem to learn from past errors.

Perhaps online opinion could find the time to run a poll here as to which Labor luminaries the non-Labor voters would vote prefer for PM.

Why don't we test the market place? I can almost guarantee that Beazley and Shorten wouldn't be at the top of the list.

read : http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18404913-17301,00.html

Beazley, having supported Howard's refugee policies had this to say in his election consession speech (NO:2)-

We have a nation with a capacity for a generosity of heart. Like any nation, there are dark angels in our nation but there are also good angels as well. And the task and challenge for those of us in politics is to bring out the generosity that resides in the soul of the ordinary Australian, that generosity of heart, so that we as a nation turn to each other and not against each other in the circumstances which [we] have."

Watching and hearing this on TV made me sick to the bones. I still am.

In NO 3, I predict Mr Hatrick Beazleay will utter something similar but waiting in the wings to take over the leadership will be MR Shorten.

Will he give a stuff that Labor will again be opposition? Of course not. He'll be happy to be in opposition because thats all he knows how to do.

Bill Shorten, Can't bat, Can't bowl, but does a wonderful impersonation of a Liberal backbencher.

Non Laborites who hate Howard deserve a better choice than the political frankenstiens their dysfuctional unionised factions create

Disclosure I beleave the greens have no part to play in the ALP.
Haveing lost 3 elections badly, some in the ALP thought it was time for renewal.
Removal of dead wood, and in some places just the introduction of outstanding new people would be good for the party and all who do not want conservative goverment.
Right or wrong some fought to stay blameing, maybe rightly factions ,just maybe some factions play a biger part in keeping Labor out of ofice.
Maybe some have gone as far as they can in the party?, can anyone think Creans time as leader was good for the ALP?
Is it wrong that many like me break into a trot and leave the room as he enters?
Can I be wrong to be amung so many who wil never forgive his recent outburst?
Kim Beazley is thrown at me by a poster who must see I do not think he can lead us to an election victory why?
The day after the last election loss was day one in this campaign, far too much annual leave is behind Kim , his plan to don the white shirt and kiss babys after mid term is a Wil Robinson one, lost in space he will not lead us next year.
Bill Shorten is far from tainted by his time as a union leader, he will serve the ALP with outstanding brilliance, many who decry him today will in the future try to claim they always knew he would be great.

Belly,

You seem to defend Shorten like he's the Labor Party Messiah, he hasn't done his political apprenticeship.

He is like Latham, an unknown thrust at the voters ... it doesn't work.

That's why poor Kim needs to resign and hand the party over to a new vibrant team, who are proven performers. Gillard & Rudd.

I am resigned to the fact that Labor won't get my vote next election because of three things.

1. Wrong Leader (appears weak, indecisive, too much baggage)
2. No firm policies (after 10 years of opposition)
3. Faction problems, squabbling - so can't govern properly

Labor hasn't a clue. They are so far removed from working Aussies ... living it up on Taxpayers money.

What's there IR policy.... we don't know
What's ther Education Policy.... we don't know
etc. etc.

Tanner said they would release policies in the time frame it suited them... Gee what about it suiting the voters they are trying to attract? We are 18 months from an election and I want to know how they will govern ... will they be fair to families?

That is another mistake they made last election... they released there policies so late that when the flaws appreared they didn't have time to fix them.

Firstly there shouldn't have been any flaws (they had 7 years to get them right) but secondly they should fix them faster. It is better to be seen to amend a policy at the time a flaw is pointed out than to defend the flaw.

You say you live politics and yet now you say "I beleive the greens have no part to play in the ALP". Yes they do - Labor needs there preferences!... Don't burn bridges Belly...

I will never say that I was pro Shorten... I will only say "I told you so" when he fails to get the ALP into office next election if crazy enough to put him as leader before he has done his apprentiship.

You will probably vote Labor ... are they clever & honest enough to get mine - a non-aligned voter?

You and I agree on one thing, the fact releaseing policys like a drip feed is strange and wrong.
A real concern for me as it seems to point to a party bound to try harder next time in 2010.
The fact is step one is geting better policys out and selling them now people change by degrees and thats what a confedent party is about to do, a real switch to Labor is comeing but not enought without policys, those if they exist should be aired now.
What learning time did Bob Hawk have before he became leader?
Surely you understand Shorten has been nominated a future ALP leader long ago?
On what evedence do you brand him a union hack?
Greens may use preferences as they wish ,its my view a vote not for the ALP in the lower house is a vote for Howard.

Belly,

I didn't call Shorten a Labor Party Hack ...

I said - Listen to people other than Labor party hacks ... represent ALL Aussies fairly!

What it means is that the Labor Party should listen to all Australians equally not just members of the Labor party.

I agree that the drip feeding method of releasing policy is a poor tactic... but Labors tacticians have great success behind them they keep losing!

They have been in opposition now for 10 years... surely they can see that after that long they should have developed some effective policies that will stand up to scrutiny. I agree it shows a lack of confidence... and again that can only come from the leader ... Kim ain't got it.

I mentioned Bob Hawke earlier Belly. Times have changed and he was well known throughout Australia. You can't compare Hawke's stature in the community back then with Shorten's now.

Bob Hawke was in the papers every day... I haven't seen Shortens name except from you here. He hasn't got the profile or the parliamentary history to win Belly.

A vote for the Greens or the Dems or an independent is a protest against both Liberal/Nats & Labor. People are allowed to protest belly and that is the only way they can these days. If people don't vote Labor then it is Labors fault... you can't blame the people by saying it's a vote for Howard I'm afraid