Belly, My sentiments exactly. Kimbo, Kimbo its time to go.

Punters need to feel more compelled to vote with confidence in a new leader because protest votes against Howard will not deliver a victory.

The arrival of a new leader, timed properly, just a smidgeon outside of an election might do the trick and get the kind of media interest required.

A break away Left party coalition?

Sorry, Belly, but much as I admire your passion and loyalty, and I very much do, it’s time for a fact check. The reason for the Coalition Senate majority is only peripherally to do with Latham. It’s much more that the Victorian ALP – yes, Rooster (sorry - Senator) Conroy, I DO mean you) tried to be too clever by seven eighths, and did a deal to minimise the legitimate electoral effect of Green preferences. This utterly skewed the result, losing Labor its expected Senate seat, or losing the Greens a seat they’d have won on raw votes or Labor preferences, with the seat instead going to Senator 1.2 per cent Steve Fielding. Senator Conroy, I think we should remember, is a Blancmange Beazley loyalist. Without Conroy’s tactical mastery, the perennial wild card that is Queensland would have been negated.

Conroy, I believe, strongly supports Shorten. We should all draw our own conclusions from this

And I support Conroy, without pain or shame, you cut a few corners in lessening Lathams blame.
And lets not forget the lost Tasmanian seats, no new coalition will be formed , no welcome to the greens into Labors rooms.
Its clear even the very left can and will contribute but Labor must remain Labor .
Shorten will not make the leadership roll soon, its too late for that or maybe too early for Bill, he will serve well and bring new followers via whatever roll he fills.
One day he will lead but for now Steve Smith Wayne Swan or third choice Rudd must emerge.
This election is not a game, its life for fairness in Australia.
Kim, sometimes it hurts to hurt a friend but for me and you party first second and only.

Belly,

Wayne Swan & Steve Smith wouldn't cut it as leader ... sorry mate but you are barking up the wrong tree. Neither Swan or Smith have the persona to deliver the hard job of promoting the ALP in the media. It isn't a personality thing it is the lack of confidence they show when being interviewed.

Rudd is a very confident, articulate speaker and if Labor won't give Gillard the nod he would be my second choice. He is confident, articulate, can think on the run and has a sound political background.

I have become more and more impressed with him during the AWB investigations. However he would need Gillard as deputy.

I also think that Gillard or Rudd as leader would be smart enough to realise that they should get their policies out there.

Isn't Senator Conroy one of the power brokers from Victoria who took on Crean and lost.... If he is a faction leader and did that just when Labor were making some inroads into Howard then he lacks political timing skills and he is a person I could never support.

Labors backroom boy system does not auger well for open and honest government in the eyes of non-aligned voters I'm afraid.

I take your view that I am barking up the wrong tree as a medal of honor.
Do not get me wrong ,our verbal tennis played on this coart does not undermine my respect for you or your views but heard of the teflon twins? long before our debates started they had the public persona of future leaders.
One or the other would run 10 points above Beazley in the leadership poll in one month of takeing over.
Rudd has the floor, its his portfolio the lies about buying weapons for Iraq to use against Australian troopsis his battle
And answer this honestly please, did Creans time in leadership hurt the ALP?
Do you see him haveing a part to play in the party? what roll? how please tell me can the party ever renew if it viewed as unfair?
Could you list some on the goverment or Labor benchs who could best serve by leaveing?
How do we handle Kim? Conroy may well have tryied help the party not hurt it.
My view is he did nothing wrong healthy trees shed leaves.

Belly,

I too respect your views... It is good to debate ... Feel free to take my comment of barking up the wrong tree as a medal of honour... I hope I am wrong because I think the Liberals have done enough wrong to be voted out next election... I just can't see Labor beating them with the people you mention at the helm.

I actually thought Crean was going to be a good fiesty leader but then he changed and probably hurt Labor. He seemed to lose the fire in his belly when he became leader. He lost the spark.

I kept hoping he would fire up again as the opposition should express the outrage it feels on behalf of the people when the Johnny Howards of this world take us to war based on faulty intelligence...etc.

The problem with trimming the tree is you sometimes take some good wood with the old wood... I think Crean still has a lot to offer and it was correct that he won his right to contest his seat at the next election.

Didn't the guy Crean defeated suddenly get a seat in State politics?... Amazing!

I'm not knowing enough to talk about the Labor side and who should resign because they are too quiet... but I would be happy if most Liberals retired...lol I am not a fan of Senator Fawkner ... I also don't think he is very effective.

Everyone in Labor think they are helping Labor Belly... It is just some like may go too far and at the wrong time. Conroy's alleged choice lost .. and in the battle Howard was let off the hook again.