Belly - with your attitude we never would have achieved a progressive taxation system in the first place. Why are tax credits for low income indiviudals nothing but a 'dream'? Policies of redistribution and robust social expenditure have worked elsewhere - why not here? Redistributon is a core tenet of social democracy. Give up on this and we may as well give up on social democracy itself. Do this and there's no point in politics except ambition, corruption, self-aggrandisement, ego...... The minute we give up on social justice there's just no point in going on.

The acheavements of the ALP did not come from the left they came from the Hawk/Keiting years.
Even Howard in a speach just days ago said our curent good position was due to things goverment did 15 and 20 years ago.
After Keiting we lost our way, the very left have had power behond numbers and have miss used it to harm our vote.
Again surely its clear? the dream that an ALP goverment MUST govern for the poor is unrealistic isnt it?
Lets understand I come from the very poorest of the poor, I hate povity, but its only a part of a countrys needs.
While Labor will try harder than conservatives to fix this problem a country must be goverened for all.
Fixing Australia and the ALP must involve reality.
I think far too many well meaning people involve themselves in the povity debate without an understanding throwing dollars at it is waste.

Bring on the ALP, Howard and the coalition can look you in the eye and say with a straight face the earth is flat. Go back 15 to 20 years and no one liked Howard because they could see straight though him. Next time you have that vote in front of you, vote 1 labor or geens , democrats, independent. I would rather a sensible 15yo run this country than the current Libs and Nats.

Dear Interest rate voters, your vote is the reason for this current mob of Cowards. Howard does not control interest rates.

Work Choices is going to cost 500 million+ to implement, A real leader would of spent that on renewable energy and childcare,etc.

If ,and I doupt it the threads author ever visits a grin must come as evedence that factions are indeed still at work ,even here.
My ALP!my love for it and hope in it never lessens!but we do have ever increaseing ways to blame voters for our problems, even saying Howard filled them with fear!
Given my eductation was hardly great learning to read and write long after my teenage years had past and not quite learning to spell yet, I found the ALP years ago!
So lets look for another answer,Why did the party wander so far from the Hawke/Keitings policys?
Can it be we need to understand elections are won by majoritys?or that some policys we put up are stupid?
That a policy that drives 2 voters away from us to keep one that was always ours is indeed insane?
A policy put by Latham [remember I AM A UNION OFICIAL] that AWA,s would be withdrawn was insane! loverly thought but lost more than it won, and they will be one way wages are paid forever under ANY goverment in Australia, haveing to earn my members holds no fear for me.
Leave Iraq? grandstanding! never won us a vote not already commited to us! it truth if we have such a policy lets talk to our freinds and do it behind the scenes it hurt Labor, needlessly.
Shall I go on? or will we agree policys matter?
We are sly out of the mud and heading to goverment we earn but without leadership it may be 2010 are we brave enought to put Australia and all who work in front of misplaced loyalty?
Pray we are mate pray!

Belly wrote "think far too many well meaning people involve themselves in the povity debate without an understanding throwing dollars at it is waste".

Well now you've got me interested Belly because poverty isn't just an indicator of a lack of cash. Its also about the civil society indicators that allow people to get themselves out of the poverty trap.

But all I hear from you and your New Labor is that 'throwing money will be waste". No policy, just a rant about the need to not waste money and side swipes at anyone that questions the gap between the rich and the poor. There's nothing 'well meaning' about people who point to this growing gap, many of them (including myself) live it and know it all too well

Tell your union members doing it hard that I and others who are against the rich getting richer that we are just 'well meaning' but misguided ideologues. But of course you wouldn't.

You should resign from being a Union rep for workers, you're just not up to it.

Rainier do not speak with your mouth full! think and speak with both your mind and heart open!
A son, the eldest in fact of A railway fettler[ basic low paid Larourer] 16 kids hungrey kids 8 lived to be teenagers.
Hard work and trouble killed my dad at 54 years of age, heart attack they said.
Now still half my pay often feeds some of my familly and often others who are unable to get out of the povity trap.
Your words are rude! my members know and trust me! and I want far better for the poor, maybe than you do.
Wealfare must be a path out of hunger not a seat to be used as a home, goverments once used jobs like council work, state and federal goverment jobs as unstated wealfare system in rural Australia now we demolish those jobs and pay contractors more to do that work.
Some are quite compfortable in wealfare, have no wish to move, this is a self inflicted wound!
Wealfare should be about makeing a job a meaning full job that in no way competes with existing work for the unemployed.
not low paid self distroying holidays for life.
I know some will never listen and hate me for it but I cry yes true as I see the well meaning wealfare supporters distroy in the name of kindness Australias Aboridginal people and that action , that refusal to see the outcomes of our blind policys shames us all.
Povity can be fought but not without true understanding.