Disclosure - I am a member of the Liberal Party

One thing that strikes me about this article is the management gobbledegook in which the author speaks. You cannot become more relevant to people by telling them that you will "fold [their] perspectives into an appropriate governance strategy". They are not encouraged by promises to "work publicly and transparently with the groups to meld ... basic tenets into an ALP 'vision'".

The Labor Party's basic difficulties are twofold: failure of leadership, and failure in relevance. Using some sort of Newspeak more suited to bureaucracies is a classic way of alienating people. In fact, it is one of the most effective ways of excluding people. That problem is all the more acute in the face of an opponent (the PM) who is widely seen to speak the same language as the electorate. That goes to a failure to be relevant.

The failure in leadership is by far the greater problem. The ALP's problem is its factionalism but the answer is not to indulge them. By indulging the factions you have, you signal to others that there will be a spot at the table form them as well; in other words, it is a recipe for greater factionalism. All you do by holding workshops to find out what everyone thinks is give everyone a false hope that their agenda will be prioritised.

Undeniably, two great success stories of centre-left party reform of the last 20 years are Tony Blair and Bill Clinton. In each case, they sought leadership and imposed a vision - one which commanded majority support in the community and which the majority of their respective parties could live with.

The leader of a political party has to take his/her party with him/her; not pander to every little interest group inside it.

I'm not a member of any political party, but I agree with Nick Ferrett's response. The ALP, particularly under Beazley, is more interested in 'selling' its policies to the electorate than it is in listening to what the electorate wants in the way of policies.

I agree that the author has defined himself as a devious nitwit by his use of obscuring language, but I think everyone misses the point about the Labor Party. It is about power and Democracy.
As long as obscure committees are allowed to overturn democratic ballots after the result is in and foist unknowns on the Labor Party members in safe seats, members will continue walking away. They know they don't own the party. The history suggests that these committees are not good judges of candidates, and the continual dealmaking ensures that the pool of candidates they select from is even smaller than what is left of the membership.
The rules must be changed so that the party officials cannot continually circumvent democracy. This will encourage members back in, provide a broader range of talent in Parliament, and through fewer available rewards and less dealmaking power, discourage the corrupt manipulators who have such a grip on the party.
I have also been a Liberal Party member, but I believe we need a choice available.

Yes, there ought be a role for factions in the modern ALP. It is inevitable in any party that groups of a similar ideological outlook will join together to further their shared interests and objectives. Nevertheless, Julia Gillard was right some time ago in noting how, in the ALP, factionalism has degenerated into 'fractionalism'. Blocs of votes around particular personalities are forming with the intent of securing parliamentary seats and of undermining those of a similar ideological outlook - even if it means dealing with those to whom they are diametrically opposed. That said, factions need to be inclusive in order to head off the kind of discontent that leads to this situation. In particular, the Left in Victoria needs to reunite with discipline, and on the basis of inclusion, not patronage and exclusion. Furthermore, the Right needs to abandon the politics of 'vendettas' which has arised in the wake of Latham's exit from the Labor leadership. The deals and counter-deals that are going on in today's ALP have little to do with ideology - and that is the crux of the problem. It's about hate, spite, power, patronage. Let the factions return to their proper role of pursuing policy outcomes in the ALP in an inclusive and democratic fashion. Only then will the ALP stop tearing itself apart.

Tristan

Of course the Liberal Party does not have factions, e.g. wet and dry, Big L, small l, etc.

The Labot Party should have only two factions, they should be the employee faction, and the small business faction. Sadly the big business faction seems to have captured both the Liberal and Labor parties completely, leaving the rest of us out in the cold, withing someone would either drag the Labor Party back to the centre, or establish a new "centre" party.

Leigh, like your style mate.....

Gillard has no problems with factions unless hers is beaten, Crean comes from one and runs with another.
Yes leadership is the problem ,and it seems Kim has followers who bank policys untill the eve of elections, he and they should go if they are afraid to put them out for review.
The ALP is much closer to goverment than many think, but some may not be around to see it on todays front bench.
ALP followers should never ever give in, its closer than you think.

I think it interesting that Liberal Party members, whilst entitled to an opinion and public comment, would have an understanding of the internal machinations of ALP factions to a satisfactory level to be able to make an informed and considered comment. It appears this page is not being used for comment on the article but an attempt at a public belittling of the ALP.

That said, the author’s comments are naive in the extreme. Regardless of political party any concentration of power will result in the erosion of checks and balances that are essential to a healthy democracy. May I point out Mr Ferrett, the (Federal) Liberal Party is also not immune from this ‘phenomenon’!

The ALP is suffering from a concentration of power from the Right Faction particularly in positions of decision-making power. Examples of this are (in Victoria) State President and Secretary of the ALP and many committees including the administrative committee. The result is battles over holding or gaining more power, such as the pre-selection process. Does the public wonder why Mr Crean was challenged?

You may wish to put Ms Gillard’s comments into perspective – she is a member of the Left faction.

I must admit, I thought I was reading an exert from “Yes Prime Minister” - very courageous of the author!

Disclosure – I am a member of the ALP and a former member of a Faction (Right).

The fundamental flaw in the ALP is it's failure to listen to constituents on just about every issue.

As a non-aligned person I have tried to make contact with the Labor party on several occassions in the past... if you aren't a member ... don't waste your time. If you are a member ... don't waste your time either.

Even though the Labor party professes to be pro-worker pro the little Aussie it actually is an elitist group that sits on it's benches. How many Labor members send their kids to private schools, how many Labor members are their because of a faction and not on merit? Isn't the public school system worthy of your children... if not ... fix it!

Keating was hardly a man of the people. Hawke however I believe was at the start. The fundamental problems with Labor is they have too much baggage from the keating years. Let's face it they stuffed up and introduced many of the things that thge Liberals can throw in their faces.

Beazley will never be PM... and his latest efforts have proven that he is a man that some in the party no longer trust.

I think Labor under Beazley should change their name to the Little Liberal Party because they aren't a solution they are part of the problem. Howard gets away with murder and the Loose Lipped Laborites start infighting... Bewdy Mate!

The solution to Labor - get rid of Kim and put Julia Gillard as Leader and Kevin Rudd as Deputy... Julia will at least attract a reasonable portion of the 51% of women voters because she appears to be at least professional in her approach to politics and doesn't have the baggage that Old Kimbo carries.

PS Simple message to all parties... embrace & listen to the people... we are all feeling left out!

If you don't like the way the Labor Party works, do something about it. Whether you join the ALP and work to reform the factions, or whether you join the Greens to build an alternative outside the ALP, just DO SOMETHING. Be heard and be active. If everyone who's disillusioned with the ALP joined the ALP and ORGANISED with the intent of making a difference, we'd be seeing a vastly different Labor Party by now. I know it's easy to get disheartened. I sometimes wonder if Australia doesn't need another political force to take the place on the social democratic left that the ALP used to occupy. But with that nothing more than a hopeless musing, the best thing I see that one can do is to get in there and have your say.

Tristan

What a lot of BS.

Ask those who are too busy to join Labor because they are out there doing things in the community if they'd be satisfied with joining a faction within the party. They'd look at you if were nuts.

Labor is the dead parrot.

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

A customer enters a pet shop.

Mr. Praline: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.

(The owner does not respond.)

Mr. Praline: 'Ello, Miss?

Owner: What do you mean "miss"?

Mr. Praline: I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!

Owner: We're closin' for lunch.

Mr. Praline: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this parrot what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.

Owner: Oh yes, the, uh, the Norwegian Blue...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?

Mr. Praline: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!

Owner: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.

Mr. Praline: Look, matey, I know a dead parrot when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

Owner: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable bird, the Norwegian Blue, idn'it, ay? Beautiful plumage!

Mr. Praline: The plumage don't enter into it. It's stone dead.

Owner: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting

There are two problems with the approach of this article.

1. The Labor Party's "basic tenets": what are they really? Those expounded in the article are so vague as to be meaningless. But more important perhaps is

2. The factions. Right, Left, Centre-Left, Centre-Right, Independent, Socialist Left, etc etc. Whatever the label the factions today are clubs whose sole purpose is to farm out jobs (safe-seats; govt appointments; etc) to members of the club. With Labor in Govt everywhere but federally, there are lotsa jobs to farm; this explains the ongoing vitality of the factions.

If you doubt this recall the gyrations of the Labor candidate for the seat of Cunningham in the by-election she lost to the Greens. She was originally "left", then joined the "right". Challenged on this she said in effect "Oh, it's just a tactical thing; I haven't changed any of my views".

So much for ALP factions representing different views.

The Labor Party is no longer a vehicle for progressive reformism or social justice. There is in fact no such vehicle in Australia today.

What is needed is a major housecleaning and rearrangement of the left-of-centre forces in Oz. A prerequisite will be a 1955-magnitude split in the ALP, cleaning out the factions and allowing for the development of a fresh political culture. This will be messy and painful but it's vitally necessary. Anyone who doubts this should look closely at the TV media grabs from Beazley, Rudd, Gillard, etc: meaningless pap with no message. The Lib Govt is awful, but it won't be unseated by such trash.

Some responses

To vanessal: I have been close to a number of ALP people over the years and I have been a keen observer of and participant in politics so I think I have a sufficient understanding of the faction system to comment.

To SHONGA: I didn't suggest that the Liberal Party doesn't have factions. It is true to say that it doesn't have the same factional structure of the Labor Party. Alliances are much more transient in the Liberal Party. In any event, the comment was on the article, which was about the Labor Party.

Generally: I do not think that the solution for any political party suffering through factionalism is to conduct a witchhunt to stamp out factionalism. It is inevitable that any party which is not a single issue party (eg Greens) will have different bodies of opinion within it. A broad-based party, by definition, has to embrace such diversity. My argument is simply that a successful leader of such a party sometimes has to stamp his/her authority on the party by putting factions in their place. Speaking to people in weasel words, telling them that you're "committed" to their "concerns" or that you want to "introduce transparency" is an exercise in giving them false hope that more power and entitlement will fall to them than is either possible or desirable. Such pathetic deception is a bad foundation for strong leadership.

Nick,

Yes, but Labor consistently fails (even with strong leadership) to state what they stand for. (This is very different from simply saying who they are not as symbolic opposition)

Where is the vision? Yes Howard et al have been clever enough to steal the traditional Labor supporter sentiments and refined them for their own purposes but does this mean this was all Labor was, a set of hoary old clichés about working class values?
How easily they were gutted. Greed and fear are powerful political aphrodisiacs that Labor had no answer for - simply because these were and are traditional Labor election strategies.

Labor must dies before it can live again. Political suicide is easy, but a simultaneous resurrection takes real vision and stamina.

A coalition of the willing must emerge soon or no amount of spin doctoring will save the Labor party from falling on its own sword for the last time.

Your argument for factionalist empowerment is flawed. No amount of reorganising the internal machinations of factionalism will deliver the coherency you argue for.

re: the prospect of an ALP split. If this could achieve the kind of results we saw in New Zealand with their New Labour Party, then I would not be complaining. In New Zealand the Left split to become part of a succesful alliance which, even after it faded and lost support, succeeded in that when the New Labour strand rejoined the NZLP it dragged it to the Left. Witness, now, the establishment by NZ Labour of a new, publicly-owned bank. In Australia, however, the Left is fractured, and there is little chance of a comprehensive split. Any attempt to form a new party could fall flat on its face if only a few unions and a smattering of branch members 'came on board'. And then there's the difficulty of media bias, and the need to harness enough resources to mount a successful campaign - not to mention the necessary discipline such a party would need to have to posit realistic policies that its core support base could identify with. This is without considering the situation in NZ where a MMP electoral system was adopted. Any attempt to form a new party would need to be based on more than the fact that we would 'feel better' running on a platform of our own choosing.

re: factions - most faction members never receive a job out of their membership of the faction. True, there are games of 'power and patronage' - and a lot of the people who do secure the jobs are a-grade arseholes - but if factions could be more inclusive and democratic - especially on policy formation - then why not operate through the factional system in an attempt to secure change? It's all a matter of whether or not we're willing to mobilise our base, or whether or not we actually fear the unpredictability of democracy, and in suppressing it demobilise our own movement.

Tristan

Seeing we are all being civilized and declaring our positions - I am an ALP member and former Left faction member.

I recall when Labor parties were unelectable in the various States and Territories, and how various pundits wrote off the Liberals pre 1996 , including taking shots at "Lazarus with a triple bypass".

I also recall various Labor State Branches (and Liberals as well) ripping themselves to their factional shreds, and then winning. I seem to recall that Steve Bracks became the accidental Premier against a strong and purposeful Liberal State Government, and has won again since then.

The problem for Federal Labor is they simply aren't being a very good Opposition, get the basics right and they might fall over the line. We don't need more self examination we need the highly paid Labor members to do their bloody job and hold the Howard Government to account - AWB, IR changes, attacks on States rights, ballooning foreign debt, huge household debt, Iraq, and dodgy American fruit and Chinese garlic clogging our supermarket shelves. Just do it.

Postscript: For the sake of relevance to the article - Factions are relevant and useful if they organise like minded members in the achievement of common goals and in the process provide some internal discipline to the party. If anything is wrong with the current factions it is that they have become fractions devoid of common purpose. Left, Centre and Right should be enough surely ?

What's that famous song Split Enz/Crowded House song "There's a faction too much friction".... Ho Ho Ho

There is always a chance that Labor could fall over the line in an election but it becomes more unlikely with every passing day.

You have to look at how the leader is performing... he aint. So make the change now. Kim should do the honourable thing and fall on his sword. He has lost several elections... and had a hand in losing the last so move over Kim... if Beazley had have been a good leader Latham wouldn't have happened. Labor needs some new sensible blood in the leadership.

People will vote for a strong leader .... Howard only ever offers a broad statement on policy with all the devil in the detail he never tells us about. Eg. NO GST on education... but it is on everything that surrounds education, books, pencils, pens, after school learning etc. He didn't lie but he didn't tell the whole story either.

He also dropped the asking price for the Govt on our Telstra shares recently...

The PM is shifty. But he gets away with it because Kim's ego is in the way. If Kim is serious about wanting Labor to have a chance in the next election he should step aside for the Gillard/Rudd team. But alas pollies including Kimbo are driven by ego... and he will make the same mistake he has in the past... Your day has been and gone Kimbo you lost the GST election mate!

You've moved the party to the right and now stand for nothing... well done! Gillard and Rudd are proven performers, hard working and will get stuck in with no baggage... Their Labor... has a chance... This Labor doesn't!

With all that Howard is doing wrong Kim's approval is still dropping... Wake Up Kim! Kim look yourself long and hard in the mirror... would you vote for the person you see? ... if the answer is yes get a new mirror! Cause I wouldn't and the majority of Aussies won't either!

Some of the anti Labor posters even took issue with Bob Hawk?, at one time 74% of us thought he was doing a good job.
Labor left its core followers in the Crean/Latham years and those who look with a clear head will see they are heading back to the voters.
The dream that Labor must govern for the battlers is not shared by most who vote, never will be.
However with just a little more effort a Labor goverment will come to end Howards creation of more battlers.
And no way exists to end Howards divisive goverment other than the ALP.

Opinionated wrote:

Wake Up Kim! Kim look yourself long and hard in the mirror... would you vote for the person you see?

mmm... is there a full length mirror wide and long enough for the bomber to see himself?

See: http://www.nicholsoncartoons.com.au/cartoons/new/2005-01-24%20Beazley%20massive%20start%

DISCLOSURE "I am a 'bible basher'/Christian"

Nick, while you make very pertinant observations about Labor, there are some very pointed observations needing to be made about the Coalition (and all parties).

1/ ECONOMY How long can you run on legs which are continually getting shorter ? in short, "When its gone, its GONE"

(We rave and froth about a bubbling economy, which seems for the most part to be based on what we dig out of the ground, and sell to China so they can add value to it and return it to us with prices which send our manufacturers bankrupt)- yes, I know this is a long debate, not the place to go into it all here.

2/ NATIONAL REPENTANCE
Why does the coalition not bring federal pornography laws into line with State laws, preventing the sale of xxx rated material ? Why is it that the ACT allows the mail order of degrading, filthy, disgusting objectifying pornography to every other state in Australia ? Grand parades and Mardis Gras glorifying sodomy, this is our glory ?

3/ IMMIGRATION. When will the coalition wake up to the realities of the world and stop importing socially, culturally and politically incompatable people to our shores ? (I don't care what color they are, I just care that they fit and are 'with' us rather than 'against' us)

4/ "MENE MENE TEKEL, UPHARSIN" Hebrew/Aramaic words from which we derive the saying "The writing is on the wall" and "Your days are numbered" (Daniel 5)

King Belshazar of Babylon gave a great banquet for 1000 of his nobles and concubines. They gloried in their own grandure and economic/political/military success.....

Mene Mene 'Your days are numbered, and will be brought to an end.

Tekel 'You have been measured..and found wanting'

Upharsin 'Your kingdom will be divided to the Persians'

That very night the king was killed by a surprise attack from the Persians/Medes.

No government or society has survived it's own degeneracy, blindness or short sightedness -we are unlikely to be the first.

"The dream that Labor must govern for the battlers is not shared by most who vote, never will be."

To the contrary, I think the idea that Labor SHOULD govern for the 'battlers' is shared by most of Labor's voters. It's only the layer of middle class swingers who are less likely to support a redistributive agenda. And even then research shows there is support for a universalistic welfare in whose benefits the middle class shares.

Tristan

I agree that Labor must govern for all Australians not just "the battlers" but they don't even seem to have represented their traditional core constituency very well over the past decades.

Australia has changed but the battler still needs someone to bat for them... with the shift to the right Labor has abandoned them. I was in business when Hawke came to power and at that time business were terrified...

Business people not long after that used to say "This is the best Liberal Govt we have had" because he managed to keep business stimulated whilst also helping workers. He led a Govt of balance.

As Keating's ambitions grew pressure was brought to bear on Hawke and slowly the old Labor infighting started. I mean they replaced their most successful PM in history with Keating.... How out of touch was that? Even though interest rates were high so were the rest of the worlds. Today our interest rates are higher generally than our trading partners with National Debt & Household Debt again spiralling.

Labor don't get it... They need a new face who doesn't have radical ideas... who doesn't write books about their own personal theories but actually wants to govern for all Aussies.

That is why Kimbo must go and the Gillard/Rudd team should take over so that they can prove themselves to the Australian people from all works of life over a longer period.

Why do politicians in the leaders job allow their egos to override their political judgement? A leader who leaves the top position because it is in the best interest of the country... not just the party can leave with their heads held high.

Beazley has that opportunity now... and should resign. Not for the sake of the party... but for the sake of all Australians whatever their station in life. His day has been and gone!

I think it is very hard, if not impossible to separate the current manifestation of "The Labour Party" from it's origins.

It was founded on 'Them/Us'. (shearers/cockies?) I suggest that this mentality is so ingrained in the history and traditions, in the factions, in the families, where men and woman have died having given their lives in the persuit of such a cause.

Under these conditions, it seems more like getting Rev Ian Paisley to see the enlightened aspects of Catholicism and the Pope.

Such is probably the case in the hyperfundamentalist economic rationalist Liberal circles.

Labor, and the Coalition for that matter, both need to look at divesting themselves from the them/us approach.
The reason I outlined such ideas as 'National Repentance' was not just because it sounds nice to my evangelical ears, but because only new people make new societies.

The level of social decay and 'New Morality' surrounding us now, seems very similar to the "Old Immorality" of the days preceeding the great evangelical awakening of 1904.

The whole point of the prophets railing against the excesses of the kings of Israel, was that "justice might flow like a river".

They cried out against the economic looters, the greedy, the rich and powerful who took the poor to court just to foreclose on their land etc...

The remuneration of CEO's? disgusting. We only get monkeys when we pay peanuts because they are very GREEDY monkeys who do not see leadership of a large corporation as a service, but as an opportunity for self advancement and the accumulation of personal wealth.
Steve Jobs of Apple sets a good example, doing all he does for ONE DOLLAR a year and he sure ain't no chimp nor a chump.

National repentance and humility crosses party lines, ethnic lines, and economic status lines.

Being right with the Almighty, will result in us being 'alright' with our fellow man. Without the first, we won't have the second though we will have some sentimental and foundationless altruism, but by and large it will be me me and more of and for....me.

There is also a "Faction too much fiction" in the Liberal party as well. Strange how noone ever refers to Liberal infighting as factionalism.

Just imagine Petro Georgiou actually had the audacity to question the Govts immigration policies and the dentention of refugees and now he is being attacked by the conservatives in the party.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1598492.htm

I thought Liberalism was always portayed as encouraging people to question policies on social, economic and moral grounds.

Malcolm Turnbull keeps putting up opposing ideas on tax reform will he be challenged by one of the factions in the Liberal Party for lack of solidarty or worse still "doing his job".

Let's face it both the major parties are made up of factions and they ban together like bully boys to get their own way.

So How do you fix the Labor party should be extended to how do you stop presure groups getting too much say in all parties. But these factions are more than just pressure groups they can actually maniplulate the way people vote.

Minister Downer said words to the effect "You know, he's got to make his own decisions about his own life. I'm not making decisions for him or urging him. It's just a matter for him and it's not appropriate for me to get involved in the preselections in Victoria".

Sounds very familiar doesn't it? If you are a Liberal voter can't see that this is very similar to the faction battles of the Labor Party? The Liberals have factions too! Parties & Factionism oppress free speech... It should be outlawed!

Petro Georgiou on immigration issues at least is a refreshing face in the Liberal Party and for diversity of opinion alone deserves to be kept in the party.

Opinionated2: Downer is not the leader of the Liberal Party and he was talking about the challenger not the incumbent in Kooyong. That makes the comments you recited very different from the position taken by Beazley. Beazley should have been leaning on Conroy not to try to take out Crean in the first place. If Beazley had any decent level of skill and authority, that battle would never have happened.

No-one with any level of political knowledge would suggest abolition of factions. Even if it was desirable, it is not achievable. The point I was trying to make (apparently without the necessary clarity) is that a leader must have the capacity to impose his will on factions. If he lacks that political capital, he is destined to take orders. If he is destined to take orders, he is not a leader.

Equally, no-one is trying to suggest that the Liberal Party lacks factions. It lacks the formal structures that Labor has. That lack of formalism means that factional alliances are much blurrier than in the Liberal Party.

I guess my ultimate point is that running around the countryside holding workshops and "listening" is the stuff with which losing political parties consume themselves. In almost every case, each such party is waiting for a sufficiently strong and able leader to take control and lead. There is no substitute for that.

Nick,

Thanks for sharing that Downer isn't the leader of the party ... Are you a political advisor?...lol

The point I was making (that you appear to have missed) is that senior party politicians are usually associated with factions and therefore can influence things at a branch level. I don't know how formalised they are in the Liberal party... they are more secretive than Labor. I suspect they sometimes just pick up the phone and say things to the right people in the right places. Amazingly simple really!

Johnny always gets others to do his work for him. So who would know if Johnny was pulling strings behind the scenes against Mr Georgiou?... Johnny always gets his way and always appears at arms length. Think about it! Petro Georgiou was advising Johnny and the boys also... I guess it was advice that had principles attached to it so that makes Petro a danger. We can't have principles in politics ... it will cloud decision making.lol

Um I think that listening to the people is actually what politics is about... and you don't necessarily need a strong leader (although it helps)... an honest one would be nice for a change. Is Johnny Howard honest?

He never takes a principled stand because he doesn't seem to know what a principle is. As I said earlier there was to be no GST on education but he put it on everything that surrounds education... everything a child uses to become educated. Yep that's honesty for you.

With Howard the devil is always in the detail and he never gives enough detail... Regime Change wasn't the aim of the war... dey had dem der weapons of mass destruction Georgy told me.... OOps no dey aint... still we got rid of Hussein... but regime wasn't part of the plan... plus how was I to know of the kickbacks... I'm only the PM don't I pay people not to tell me stuff?...lol

Howard has overused the plausible deniabilty line.

Is political blindess catchy?

Yes, its quite obvious that Labor (not to be confused with the Left) is starring into the abyss of an ideological crisis.

On one hand it cannot retreat and use its traditional socialist armoury - and on the other is cannot be seen to espouse conservative (Right wing) ideological frameworks.

In this crisis the centrists will always win and the factions they control. Howard has been able to milk this uncertainty and crisis well, Labor continues to deny that this is the reason they are haemorrhaging.

However, Nick Ferret is right call for leadership that grabs this centrist crisis by the scruff of the neck - but this will also require a person who can also inspire the imagination of voters from both the left and the right. Anyone can do the 'I'm boss- shutup and sit down' push, but it will need to be coupled with a vision that is ideologically supported.

I see no chance of this happening before the Fed election in 2007.

The bomber will get his three out of three hat trick.

Joy I have become midle class! tristian as one of 16 kids I know hunger and understand the very poor.
No goverment will ever be elected that wants to be robin hood.
Centerism is the only path voters will follow its not an illness its an answer.
Those who do not want a Howard goverment surely understand only the ALP can stop it.
And those who waste votes or voted for Howard must execpt the part they played in electing him.
A Labor goverment will take the fear out of industrial relations,but would struggle to even hold seats if it again takes the wrong policys to an election.
compare Tony Bliars England to Howards Australia, now imagine another Latham result, frightens me.

Opinionated 2,
I quite like your first post idea of Gillard leader, Rudd deputy, these two fresh faces would bring fresh ideas badly needed if Labor wants to again become a force. Between the they must "drag" Labour back to the cenreground, and provide a reasonable choice for voters.

If they are not prepared to do this then they will remain Australia's largest "pressure group" without winning government. I agree big Kim must go for the good of his party, he is a two time loser, with an approval rating of 18%, surely the Labor Party can see the writing on the wall.

The electorate dislike Howard immensly but do not want Beazley, he has been a good Minister in the past, that is where his role is now, in the past.

SHONGA,

During the GST election Labor actually believed that just bagging the GST would get it over the line. They offered no alternate plan that would broaden the tax base. I think that they forgot that the first person to put forward the GST into the public arena was Keating.

They were dumb founded that they lost.

Kim and the Labor Party are making the same mistake again. Last election they gambled on Latham and lost. Latham had too much baggage.

Kim has too much baggage. He was there during the Keating years. He has lost two elections.

Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd would make a great team. Obviously we would have to see their policies and strategies before we got too excited but they would bring a freshness to a fairly stale party.

I cannot understand how a party like Labor can't see that they are fighting a losing battle with Kim at the helm. Are strategists in that short a supply or are they still relying on the ones that they have used in the past. Um they haven't brought success!

It is time to clean the decks and get a team that will take them into the future. If I was Beazley's advisor I would tell him to resign the opposition post now and his seat prior to the next election timed so as not to cause a bi-election. Not that they should be scared of a bi-election but it would be a graceful way out without costing the taxpayer any more for the bi-election.

Of course the problem with Labor are there are probably others who crave the job. Labor men especially have a "I wanna be king" mentality and they forget who would best serve the Australian people... and then their party. The Aussie people must always come first!

Maybe they will surprise us and they will think of this plan....lol

Having read the lively correspondence on the Labour Party factions,
I find that I have not a clear idea of what factions are in play,
and what are their objectives,and whose interests do they serve
Please explain.
Gulliver

David Boaz,
You also make some interesting observations mate, some I agree with, some I don't but certainly appreciate your input into this conversation.

I would like to see an artice on National Competition Policy v National Excellence and Effinciecy Policy, if we have one, i will explain further.

Haveing left school very early I may not have the education many have who post here.
However I am no mug , the thought that Gillard could ever lead the ALP is so far away from reality that it stuns me.
It is never ever going to happen, the last time a leftist lead the party was before most who post here came into this world.
Beazley can not win ,he holds the leadership for such as Bill Shorten, the best choice, Steve Smith Rudd shudder, or Swan.
Those oposed to Howards distruction of the Aussie fair go, those who in this IR murder of workers rights see and end to Mateship, should look for a wining leader not a Latham clone.
Gillard is a product of the factions she decrys so often in her case the left.

It's time for a new party that backs small business and hard working people in private enterprise.Both parties have failed these two catagories abismally.

The Howard Govt is in the pocket of big business and multi-nationals and Labor panders to dinosaur unionism of the 1930's mentality.

Both parties are still slaves to a socialist state of big Govt that rewards impotence.

Belly,
I understand you mean well mate, but the Labor Party left the battlers behind under Hawke/Keating governments, which is why they deserted the party in 1996. They didn't vote for Howard, they voted against Keating. Gillard/Rudd combination would be good for a party confined to the opposition benches indefineately, heaven forbid Bill Shorten the National Secretary of Australia's Weakest Union [ who takes the bosses word over their own members} is handed the job, if so he will set a record for the longest serving Opposition Leader in history.

The Labor Party needs a re-union with it's traditional working class base, and until that happens {not likely with Shorten, with the reputation the AWU has under he and stupid old Bill Ludwick}the Labor Party will languish in Opposition until they wake up to themselves, Shorten will be an electoral liability, as is his right wing mate, Beazley.

Dream on Belly, but if the ALP wants to be anything except Australia's largest pressure group, Gillard/Rudd partnership is the only way to see a reinvigorated party, ready to take government.

Everyone who enters politics has done a deal with someone. All parties have factions... people of like minds always congregate together - it is that simple. There is no real right or left anymore so that puts that to bed.

The other thing that always astounds me in political debate is that according to many politicians aren't allowed to grow into positions. They aren't allowed to moderate their opinions... according to the many they are fixed in the same position from where they enter politics... What Rubbish!

Secondly everyone always says get elected then change the party from within... John Howard has done exactly that... He got in... surrounded himself with like minds and took the party in a more conservative direction... ask Malcolm Fraser he will explain it to you.

So all that guff about Julia Gillard is just a blind. She has developed as a politician like Rudd, they would make a cohesive team, and she is from Victoria one of the two power States (even though I hate typing the power State bit sorry but it is true).

The fact that she has spoken out about the factions means that she is open to change... she is open to reassessment ... and so that should make her progressive. Kevin Rudd is doing a great job on the AWB thing and has raised his profile significantly.

If Kim resigned tomorrow and Julia Gillard became leader with Kevin Rudd Deputy both uncontested you watch the Labor party's acceptance soar!

But could the men of the Labor party with leadership ambitions actually put Australia first above their ambitions?... They could if they put the good of Australian voters first over their egos but that is what needs to be done.

Organise a smooth transition to the Gillard/Rudd team and resign enthusiastically Kimbo... you know it is in Australia's best interest and as a polly - Australia's interest should always come first! Forget the boys... noone will vote for them

Time for my sins to be layed out, I am a lifetime trade unionist, for the last 4 years a trade union oficial, in the AWU.
Dream on? please yes Australia voted for Howard but take note the floppy all over the shop ALP leadership opened the door for voters to leave.
History shows Aussies are not and never will be leftys, its you shonga a person from my side that dreams.
No ALP goverment would inflict this IR murder on workers ,not just unionists that we suffer now.
Weak? I can show you 90 people who came to me to leave other unions and with pride and truth say each card I hand out comes with this ,quote I will never let you down.
Workers movements exist for the workers only.
Flogging dead horses is a hobby of the left, reality tells me get behind the ALP Shorten will prove a far better outcome for Australia than Lathams lass.

Shorten may be a leader of the future who knows? but there isn't enough time to promote his profile.

Trade Unionists always come with an element of baggage. As the workers are scared of Howard so the employers are scared of Trade Union big wigs. Plus with the falling numbers of unions it proves many workers don't think they get value for money from their union memberships.

The ALP must govern for all Australians (as the Libs should have) but in the eyes of many Shorten will not be pro employer. You have to earn that trust. Plus in this new modern era the trade union movement needs to be arms length not an integeral part of the Labor party.

Sorry but Trade Union leaders won't go far in this new world. Ferguson hasn't done much, Crean started out resonably until he got the leadership.

The proces for a Union Leader to become leader should be a slow one... Some unions have given all unions a bad name and so we the voters have an underlying mistrust of union leaders...

Hawke was different as he was such a high profile person and the times were different.

Just as a quick example ... my sister was a memeber of a union back in the 80's. She was retrenched by a big company and they renegged on a $7000 retrenchment package. She contacted the Union and they said just be grateful you got something many people are getting nothing. They did nothing more. Why would anyone trust a union that did that?

every one needs to take a bex and calm down. the alp is the most successful it has ever been, it has one elections in every state and territory. 8 out of nine ain't too bad.

Kim Beazley took the ALP to a whisker of winning, then Simple Simon became leader and embarked upon an unnecessary public self-flagellation over the 60/40 rule. quite frankly the average punter couldn't care less.

so bad was his leadership the party was left with no option but to find a replacement, again simple simon entered the fray to work to install latham.

we all know the success of that endeavour, now he is intent on ensuring another electoral disaster by promoting gillard

simply put we have no economic giants that can map out an economic strategy to combat costello. we won't win federally until we can achieve this, we can have the best educational, health and environmental policies but we won't win until we have an economic policy and strategy

Belly,
Aussies will not take kindly to Shorten, you seem to be one committed awu official, and I do not doubt for a second your personal committment to your members. Having said that I have been forced to become an awu member on several occasions, and know first hand what type of assistance the awu gives its members. I have also been let down by a union secretary in another union, the difference was that the other union was trying to help me out of a harrowing experience, unlike the awu, who basicly said we are on the bosses side.

If you check out the awu deal with the then MIM operation in Mt Isa, you will find the company requested the awu to replace other unions in a site deal, because MIM could rest assured that the awu would be a passive union. The time has come for unions to aggressively take up their members plight. They have no legislation with which to fight, so it will be a long difficult process for truely representitive unions, let alone the awu.

When Workchoices begin to bite, you won't find the awu in the front line of protest mate. It will be left to the C.F.M.E.U, A.M.I.E.U., N.T.E.U., A.S.U, B.L.F. and other fair dinkum unions to rally for the rights of ordinary working families.

Shonga, i too gave had less that satisfactory dealings with unions as both and employer and employee.

• What these experiences taught me was that their is a highly selective ideological culture within unions to represent the interests of its members.

• If you belong to or are well connected to the aristocracy of the Labor party (and therefore their backroom culture of industry mateships as with MIM) you can expect them to do go out of their way to help you. If you're just an ordinary member, they'll tell you to take a ticket and stand in line.

• Count the federal and state parliamentarians who got ordained through the unions and their shonky preselection processes and you start to understand why non-union people in social activism are walking away from unions and the Labor party simultaneously.

• That said, their are very few unions who wear their heart on their sleeves when it comes to broader social justice issues lest they lose legitimacy with their growing right wing members.

• Howard’s unions? This may be unbelievable to traditional unionist orthodoxies but it will soon be a fact that is born out of workplace reforms now and into the future.

• Shorten is a by-product of this ideological impurity and corruption.

• In another life he'd easily fit into a Howard front bench as he's only a small step to the 'left' of Abbott and Costello

It is so easy to find the negative side in anything or any one my union being from the less radical group suffers often from such.
However I make no effort to pretend all unions do not need reform, and that some oficials need to go ,in every union.
Yes I am commited and do not tell me some of the extreme radical actions are a reason for our curent position, today is the first in a nightmare.
Reform? how about unions do split from politics ? why would we not want conservative victims of Howard to be in a union?.
Unions must be about the workplace nothing else.
Bill Shorten will prove his detractors wrong, he is just as good as Hawk, time will make some question how could they be so wrong.
While I would never vote other than ALP come walk with me in workplaces and see those who never will leave the conservative camp for a left leaning Labor.

Belly,

I'd like to make a clear distinction between being radical and simply being supportive of social justice - this cop out explanation about being radical is used as a weak excuse by your union all the time NOT to support social justice issues that DO effect workers. Or do workers NOT have the intellectual capacity to link broader social justice issues with their sense of civil society and citizenship? I don't think so mate.

I would like to think you prefer Shorten for much more educated reasons reasons than his similarities to the Silver Bodgie.

His ridiculous claims about children in poverty still resonate in my ear. How blind was that?

What troubles me (and many others) about Shorten is his narrow understanding of the world around him. Workplace and IR issues issues are one thing but a broader understanding of what political leadership means for people who have a much more holistic sense of where this country should be going is surely a prerequisite for national leadership. Shorten is a just a union bully boy in short pants.

You and the workers your represent deserve better than to be intravenously fed a political anaesthetic by factional union line spin doctors. I’m all for unions and unionism but not while they continue to coff up born to lead, fed by silver spoon, pre-ordained apprenticeships, that end up in federal parliament.

How many more 'favourite sons' of gnarly old union bulls will we be asked to vote for in the next federal election?

Rainer,
You couldn't possiblr be refering to Joe Ludwig could you? A perfect example of awu jobs for the boys. I have been involved in good unions, who have fought the good fight for their members, the awu is not a member of this club.

David Boaz,
David how is it possible to change the them/us philosophy, when reality still presents the same picture today, as it did then?

It amazes me why right wing people would join a union for protection of their income and conditions, then go and vote for a right wing government who attacks the very nature of why they joined a union in the first place, for the love of God, how can anyone be so niave....

Shonga I have much more in common with you than some other posters.
I think a few years too, Shorten is my tip because only , yes only a near new Labor team can win goverment in this country.
The fact is unions other than mine may well have bought the Howard monster down on us.
City centric unions are not on the ground in rural NSW while reluctant to divid unions with that old line you throw at mine lets review my workplace.
I saw the elction of the other unions delegate to the EBA commitee, transported him with my delegates 220 klm to and from the meetings, the AWU paid his meals and overnight costs.
It is fact that ALL unions let members down yours too, and that if the bloke along side you at work votes conservative he has every right to want to be in a union.
Is it not clear that my dream is to see Howard cry just as Frazer did?

Belly as I said I believe you tpo be a decent man who works hard for his members, no union/business is perfect, there will always be radicals like myself who will want to push the envelope, and try to get workers a better deal. I accept the bosses unions {Chambers of Commerce} will oppose as cthey should, represnting the interests of their members.

I see the Labor Party as a political organisation, who should be an advocate for employees to join unions, and for union reform to be initiated to give all unions a charter to work hard to represent their members to the best of their ability. Now that it has been made non-compulsory to join an organisation, that will support you through hard employment times. Unions can still advocate on behalf of working people, however I can not remember the last ALP Leader State or Federal I heard advocationg the Unions to the workforce.

The State Labor Governments have not significantly increased wages or conditions for the workforce in general, as they are too conservative {right wing} to take low paid workers plight seriously, and until they do they will remain in Federal Opposition, Shorten is just another conservative, if he leads the ALP the difference to Beazley will be infanite.

Hi Sean
getting rid of a 'them/us' mentality, is a big ask.
Specially when our brother Belly says he is a lifelong AWU trade unionist, which just perpetuates the issue.

I get wearied by interiminable discussions as on this thread of well meaning people who think they can discuss the problem into a solution by just looking at various aspects of the issue.

The reason I ramble on about 'new people rather than new ideas make new communities' as nauseam, is because I believe it :)

I think Belly and others are extremely 'entrenched', and have settled their minds on the position that 'nothing good can ever come out of Galilee'..oops.. I mean the Liberal party :) I tend to agree to a point, in as much as the Liberals also represent specific interest groups.

Most political parties which represent specific interests, often wax eloquent about how they really support and govern for EVeryone.... but I suspect it is more window dressing than anything.

When brother Belly puts as much emphasis on the interests of employers as he does on employees, I'll know there is hope for a future.

When the bible speaks of "There is no longer slave or master, greek or jew" it is referring to the renewed community where such traditional barriers are overcome in Christ.

We still need constant encouragment and rebuke to maintain our spiritual condition and growth.

The early church was "sharing everything" in Acts 2, but by Acts 7 the Jews were tending to neglect the Greeks in the daily distribution.
This is not a condemnation of the Church but of fallen selfish human nature.
Even Paul says (regarding perfection)

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. ...But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus

BD please just understand I have the right to think as I wish, my dream is for constant change and improvement from the union/Labor movement.
120 years ago my union formed like all man does we make mistakes and some let us down, your God would expect nothing less.
Each day I leave home not knowing what problems I must try to fix ,today its raiseing money for a 3 year old who no longer has a mum, and bosses who I like, the workers like and who like us will contribute.
Haveing once been a christian I doupt you have the right to judge me.
Your seeming view that a unionist can not be a careing human remind me of why I hold the view we are masters of our own fate.
A middle of the road careing human being not tarnished by his union background who will bring us a better world is Bill Shorten, change threatens no man if its for the good.

Belly,
As I said I know you mean well mate, you have just gotten yourself in the wrong union if you actually care about people, because the awu doesn't. This will lead to frustration over the coming years for you.

DB I understand where you are coming from, and if negotiations were between you and I we could work out a solution, however this situation is about global capital finally overcoming completely global labour, and squashing it, only one response is appropriate, it has been seen all over the world in countries like France, currently.

Australian's seem to be much more subservient than their french cousins, we don't stand and fight the most draconian heartless, authoritian legislation in a century. We just allow ourselves to be pushed around, some won't let this happen without opposition, nor should they.Bad laws are bad laws, a rose is a rose by any other name.

This topic has shown what is wrong with trying to appoint Union Leaders to positions in the ALP without them being proven over time.

It's not the union members that will vote for them that count as there aren't enough Union members to get them voted in... and rightly so.

It is the average Australian that counts who may not belong to a Union. Unionists seem to forget this. If the Union vote was so strong in elections Labor would be in every year.

But Labor has to attract a percentage of the non-Unionist workers, a pecentage of the employers, a percentage of retired people etc. etc.

So just because a Union leader may have been good at what he did he has to impress the average Aussie voter across the spectrum and that will take time. If a Union leader was promoted straight to the head of the ALP the vote will plummet. It's pretty simple stuff.

The average voter doesn't like big company bosses and they don't like Union leaders.

Politicians even today still have it around the wrong way.... the Australian voter must always come first and their party second... Even Johnny doesn't get that simple rule!

No Nick, NO leader should be able to impose his/her will on the factions. As I stated, conceration of power is NOT healthy for any society/faction/political party......

My beleif in Bill Shorten has nothing to do with his union background or any actions he has taken as a unionist.
It has everything to do with watching him talk many times on every day concerns of every day Australians.
I am proudly not concerned at the slurs the AWU has thrown at it by the extremists within the union movement.
The future even under Labor is not for the extreme.
While serviceing ALL unions members on my sites it is clear workers do not always vote Labor.
And clear some never will, remember as you ask why unionists often end up in the house that unions formed the ALP.
My defence of unionism in no way denies the need for constant change and improvement.
The same is true for the ALP just how good would the polls be if our leader was withing 5% of Howard?
Kim please do not keep policys and actions in reserve for an election the voters are makeing choices now.

Belly,

I meant to congratulate you for outlining your affiliations on this thread.

This is worth a read :

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s1596343.htm

I am an unaligned person - I have never been a member of any political party and don't wish to become one, I am a swinging voter having voted for Liberal, Labor, Greens, Democrats and Independents during my voting life.

Declaring one's position also helps so that people know they aren't being diverted from key issues that may effect our country, like the AWB enquiry and some possible ramifications-

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18637461%255E601,00.html

http://www.news.com.au/index/0,10121,37435,00.html

Also my independence allows me to post links to information that others might find interesting... like this link to where Andrew Bartlett apologises regarding the Dems GST judgements

http://www.democrats.org.au/speeches/index.htm?speech_id=1384&display=1

There will be many people here who take positions due to their biases and yet won't declare them. Australia is a great country but it can so easily be weakened by dishonest Governments, poor oppositions and a lack of options for voters who don't wish to vote for just the two main parties.

That is why Liberal and Labor fail to do what they are truly mandated to do... to represent the whole of Australia without prejudice. Do some pollies breach their oath with some of their actions? And what remedies are in place when if they do breach their oaths?

That is why I believe that the Australian people would be far better served by the Gillard/Rudd team.... Kim has had his day and Shorten is yet to prove himself as a politician...

The ALP has to state categorically that the Australian people ALWAYS come first and foremost over any pressure group including the Unions.

Your views are interesting but not from the majority, like it or not over half of Aussies want Howard as pm.
you can bet those wanting Gillard would not be in double figures.
I would like to see a poll, one for Labor voters only three questions would be enough.
But honesty matters Labor voters only.
Question one Should Labor lead us out of Iraq?
Two should we have new uranium mines?
3 do we need a new leader?
Its my view we sometimes do not ask our members what they or Australia thinks before introduceing new policys, majoritys only can elect goverments.

Belly,

Ah the famous majority .... my views may well be from the majority if the parties put Australian voters first and stopped kissing the butts of pressure groups like unions and employer groups.

Your survey :

The problem in Iraq is the falsified evidence has now proven we shouldn't have gone there in the first place. Imagine presenting the evidence that took us to war in a court... the pollies would be charged with perjury, and attempting to pervert the course of justice. Are pollies above the law?

But just leaving Iraq is too simple a concept. Even though we are wrongly there we know we have made it a more dangerous place... possibly, even probably, a breeding ground for future terrorists. We can't leave the poor Iraqi civillians in a civil war. Labor has to put forward an exit strategy that makes sense. Just pulling out the troops could be worse than the invasion, long term.

I am totally against Uranium mining... why? there are many reasons but two are because it is the most dangerous substance on the planet PLUS because it has such a long life we have to predict and protect against what Govts/terrorists in up to 250,000 years might do with it. This product can be upgraded to weapons grade at any stage in the very long term future. If it falls into the wrong hands ... watch out! What would Bin Laden do with a bucketload of weapons grade Uranium? Labors policy is dense... It should be a no mine policy.

Labor definitely needs a change of leadership... that is of course if they ever want to be taken seriously in the future. They have nothing to lose... Kim has though ... he can add another election loss to his resume. They have not only lost many of their core constituency but many who are against Howard but just couldn't trust the ALP again under Beazley.

The Gillard/Rudd solution I propose would get far more than single figures Belly... Are you showing a biased guess with that comment?

I am biased, true haveing lived every one of those 23 years under conservative goverment I have no wish to do it again.
As I have said Labor party reform is one of my wishes, Gillard has no part to play in leadership.
here are my answers, it would be wrong to leave Iraq yet,we should stay but constantly review that stand.
We can leave the uranium in the ground and let others sell it or sell it I say sell.
Yes I respect and like Kim ,but he will not win an election.
Australia needs a change in goverment the ALP needs a few by elections , now is the time for some good men to leave the house giveing us hope.
And just maybe a leader, Shorten will lead in time and very well.
And understand please no minority ever elected an Australian goverment ,but plenty had much to add to good goverment.

What puzzles me is this stoic support of Shorten who is largely untested in the deep waters of leadership and social and economic policy. Running corrupt factions and rote learning and speaking what will be popularly recieved [in a union willing to promote you] is one thing.

Actually understanding the complexities of the social justice and economic conditions that effect the majority of Australian (who are not mesmerised by the products of unionised king making) is quite another.

In the absence of anyone else of substance one should be careful not to accept those who are milking the Labor leadership vacuum for personal gain. Shorten's ambitious pomposity may fool some but not all.

To my way of thinking - In days past when good leadership was plentiful, the only job Shorten would get would be adminstrative.

As soon as Shorten came out in support of a flat 30% tax that did him as far as I was concerned. If ever Shorten became leader that would lent credibility to this grossly inegalitarian proposal, opening the way for a 'bipartisan consensus' on a matter that would otherwise be sure to gain very little public support.

Tristan

Belly,

And what caused the 23 years of coalition rule.... Was it a divided dysfunctional Labor party? Or were the Liberals that good?

Finally after the Whitlam debacle the Labor voters get Hawke who is re-elected several times... and what do the brains trust do... they dump Hawke for Keating! Amazing!

Great plan! Then Keating accidentally wins an election and Labor think they are unbeatable! Keating loses to Johnny Howard ... the most rejected politician of our time and then they can't get him out... Wow!

Shorten as leader won't "Shorten" Labors time in opposition. Learn from history.... Labor tried an unknown last election... "Another great plan"!

The Gillard/Rudd team are your only hope of replacing the Howard Govt. unless the AWB enquiry does it for you guys:

http://www.news.com.au/index/0,10121,37435,00.html

Labor have gone into too many elections with their "fingers crossed" as their key stategy... they even lost the GST election...
How could Kim lose that one? One word "Complacency"... they got lazy because they didn't think the people would go for a new tax system.

Does Labor still have the same strategists and advisors they had in that memorable loss? They appear to have the same strategies....

Gillard & Rudd will at least give the opposition a chance to win, fresh faces, a younger team, a more dynamic team... Whilst your loyalty is admirable your hope for Shorten as leader to win the next election just doesn't make political sense. As I said before people don't like big company bosses or union bosses

You and I are liveing with that 23 years now, Ming the then prime minister used fear and devision to rule.
He took the best of our policys and called them his own, the Labor party stood for what they thought was right and did not change with the times.
Make no mistake Howard lives in that mans shadow willingly knowingly.
Only a majority can elect goverments, daily we see my poor mate Kim struggle to even use words that do not turn the electorate away.
Our leadership pool is deep and long not only but includeing Steve Smith Rudd[if you must] Swan,Shorten, it however ,be realistic please ,will never include Gillard.
This is no time to forget or forgive a bloke called Mark Latham, reality tells me his supporters owe working Australians a great deal this week, the gift of the upper house to Howard lays at their feet.

Belly

I've been following this thread for a while and I share the same concerns as to how Labor will ever get its act together.

Shorten is:
1. Unknown quantity - the main reason for promoting him seems to be based more on his unknown factor - a kind of heads in sand approach. What we don't know won't hurt us POV.

2. Right wing based - What I have been able to glean about him is that he is a right faction type. Not exactly ground breaking - more inclined to maintain the status quo - as Beazley has done to democracy's detriment.

Also you repeatedly diss Gillard without any reason as to why, please enlighten me.

Labor needs a fresh approach - Shorten doesn't indicate anything new.

Scout I will try to explain my reasons, first nothing matters to me nothing at all more than an ALP goverment.
It is my view that will come from the right only at this point in history.
I do not fear that as much as a conservative goverment should I?
Gillard is not the best our left has to offer John Faulkner may well be.
Now Bill Shorten? I am from the AWU and long standing at that, and watched Bill long before others talked about his future.
He understands politics and people ,he has been well groomed for a leadership roll and in time may well be our Tony Blair.
Remember Labor in power can do much of worth, in opersition? zero.
Gillard has talent but it is best used other than spliting the party, our direction has to be mainstream or we die.
While Bills time may not be yet even many oposed to him now will be on his team within 5 years
regards.
ps I do not think union officials always make good in the house, Bill has my support because of him not the union.

Belly, Shorten is just a Kmart version of Latham for gods sake. And so was Latham.

Remember the great unwashed out there, while mostly politically reactive , are seasoned mediai consumers and the Murdock/Packer media know what they like and don't like.

Gillard and Ruedd are consistently the only ones I see on my idiot box taking the fight, indeed becoming the face of Labor.

This might seem very insignificant now, but a month out from a Federal election ? Familiarity means heaps.

Who knows Shorten besides Stephen Conroy and the other 'fixers' Labor has scuttling around like cockroaches in Labor party branches?

So while we might like bloke or that bloke (they are usually blokes)
Its who the punters out there reckon is a good fella just before they pencil in their ballot.

And the majority of them are not union people at all.

As the eldest of 16 children my education could have stoped as I left school at less than 12 years of age it did not.
I may miss spell and not use gramma well but at least I learn daily from the world I live and work in.
Those who throw themselves in front of any camera like Rudd are known but cameras do not always get offered to Smith, Shorten or Joe average in construction lunch sheds around Australia.
They told me about the Latham train wreck months before that event, they had no need I had almost been thrown out of the ALP for telling of it.
Have no fear a leader will be in place by mid next year, by end of this year in fact.
It may not be Shorten but my views of him are based on real knowledge and information about him ,not pre fab views based on nothing at all.
Gillard has nothing to offer the leadership of the ALP other than another train wreck.

Belly

I always enjoy the sincerity of your posts. However, you do not convince me that Shorten is the answer. And I don't know if Gillard is either - I just wanted your perspective. I agree she is talented - I have listened to her in parliamentary question time and she is a swift, clever and intelligent debater - the ALP needs a lot more like her.

Shorten strikes me more as a 'play by the numbers' polly. I do not doubt he also has talent, but what the ALP needs is a charismatic and visionary leader and I'm not too sure that one exists at present. Such a leader would pull the factions together. I am not opposed to the factions per se, after all it is the very diversity that enables Labor to represent many people. However, Beazley simply lacks the leadership skills to combine them into an effective whole.

Apart from perverse tenacity; John Howard does have the skill to maintain control over the Libs - he effectively scuttles those whose ideology doesn't fit with his - watch Petro Georgio disappear. I don't agree with this paternalistic style of leadership - but it is effective.

Therefore another skill a Labor leader needs is the ability to work in a collaborative manner - this will bring the factions together. Can Shorten do this?

Regards

Belly,

Just a little example to prove that you may be making the mistake that the ALP has made for the past 3 elections... you don't appear to be listening.

At the moment you are the only one selling "Shorten" as a good person to lead the ALP. The majority here have said that Gillard and Rudd are more likely candidates. The main reason is that they have a track record in politics. Track records are very important... Beazley's has allowed him to lose two elections already.

I know it is a very small sample but what the others and I have been saying is that we need a strong opposition and we need one NOW!

Gillard/Rudd offer this immediately. They are the ones leading the fight and are proven performers. In general taking a punt doesn't work in politics. The non-Union Australian voter will be cautious regarding Shorten and rightly so.

If you don't want to see Labor in opposition after the next election you had better take a step back and have a look at the arguments put forward here. Labor is a weakened outfit under Beazley... and Gillard/Rudd offer your only way forward.

Scout Shorten can pull the team together and beleave me he can pull votes.
Opiniated2 I am indeed listening but not buying what you are selling.
Australia is not in need of a strong opersition, we need a strong Labor goverment and a weak conservative opersition to undo the damage.
Gillard would end my lifetime love and membership of the ALP at this point in time we the ALP need to look at Tony Blair and see Australian Labor has no other path to goverment.
Please folks I have to ask how can anyone who expects us to beleave what they post thinks I am the only one calling for a Shorten leadership?.
He has many followers but many more will come.
Another question are we to give Howard another 3 years because Gillard has ambitions that will never come to pass?
And given a choice new Labor or no Labor would you inflict the latter on us?
In twelve months Labor will be close to goverment have faith our best friends are the conservatives who are over confident and prone to lie.

Hey Belly

Sorry mate, but you fail to convince. Describing Gillard as a 'train wreck' doesn't make it as evidence. I am inclined to side with Opinionated on this.

You haven't mentioned Rudd and why do we need another conservative like Shorten? Clearly veering to the Right hasn't worked for Beazley. The public want a real alternative not a facsimile of the Libs.

Unless we have a miracle there isn't a lot to choose from.

Regards

Scout we differ on factions but both want victory , and both think it not posible even with Howards IR,AWB, and a host of lies.
So lets compremise, deep down inside we both know that swing to the right must come or election losses are our only future.
Rudd is not my choice but if he leads soon he can turn this around, ever let a mate down?
I think Kim Beazley is my mate, but request him to go now with grace, this election has to be fought each day as if we want to win it.
Plan only victory or be part of the reason Howard wins.
No leadership roll, forget those polls will come to Gillard if the ALP is planning to win.
policys and leadership alone can turn this around.
Kim mate now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the party, before we inflict a nightmare on Australia, and its workers.

Belly,

The road to having a Labor Govt means you MUST be strong in opposition. You can't have a strong Labor Govt without them proving themselves in opposition first. So what are you suggesting Australians should just trust the ALP without any proof they will be a better Govt than the Libs. It just doesn't work that way I'm afraid.

Gillard and Rudd are doing exactly that... Kim's not your mate... he's the leader of an opposition that looks weak. I watch Beazley in parliament and I am unimpressed. In interviews he is also unimpressive. Time for him to go quietly.

Belly I'm concerned that you are against having a woman lead the ALP.... is that your worry? Women make up 51% of the population and many feel that they haven't had a proper voice in parliament ever. Perhaps that is why the Democrats did well for a long time (prior to the GST) because they were brave enough to have a woman leader.

Labor men seem scared of women... which to be honest doesn't say much for Labor men... they probably married a woman....lol

Women have so much to offer Australia and Gillard has the qualities to create a strong Labor Leader.

Shorten is a pipe dream mate... he can't do much in the next 5 years... he has no political track record for us to assess. As a non-aligned voter I am far more likely to vote for Gillard than Shorten as long as the policies were to the benefit of all Australians.

Scout asked you for a decent reason against Gillard and you haven't come up with one. Why?

Are you blinded by your Union background? As I said before... step back and have a look at the real picture... would you rather Howard have 3 more years than have the Gillard/Rudd team in power after the next election?

Belly,

The Shorten tactic for Labor is to 'be like Howard to beat Howard' and its as old as the hills and does not work. Don't be fooled.

Why would voters vote for a second hand version of John Howard if they've got the original?

Short-on ideas and even Shorter on tested leadership, Shorten is not the answer.

I can understand your need to have some hope in someone. But why someone like Shorten?

Surely you've much more sophisticated than this? I reckon you are.

I have to ask what in my posts can be used as evedence that I do not want a female leader for the ALP?
I do not want a greens infuenced ALP very strongly, but in time we will be a country with a female Prime Mister.
She will gain that job by being the best person for it not by a quota system.
Again my wish to revert to the path followed by Keiting and Hawk is no lurch to the right, just a must have move to follow the new conservative voters Howard has manufactored with massive help from Simon Crean, Mark Latham, your Julia and my Kim .
Only a Labor goverment can restore workers rights, policys that give true safty net for all who work , a national basic award condidtions and protections are only more lies if from the coalition.

Hey Belly

We're all wanting a Labor victory some time in the NEAR future. And its great that we are having this discussion without being harrassed by the rabid right.

But seriously, Kim? Its been ten years, mate. When is this magic leadership gonna appear?

Kim is a lovely, cuddly fellow and it is time for him to step down gracefully and give the party a chance to find its way without a lot of factional backstabbing.

Now, you state that you don't think you have implied a female leader would be a bad thing. Well, you have because you haven't been able to supply any valid reasons against Gillard - have you listened to her in Parliament question time?

Also you talk about selection on merit - nothing wrong with that, but at present we have a very small pool of women to select from. When there are at least 50% percent female pollies available, then we will have the luxury of merit.

I'm not saying that Gillard is necessarily the right choice for leader, but I am saying she has done very well thus far and deserves a chance.

What we don't need is more of the same - no more Beazley and Shorten will only lengthen the Libs stay in office.

We need leaders to represent the worker and small business. The big end of town has always taken care of itself - but it is the minority so why are we continuing to jump to its tune?

Cheers

"Only a Labor goverment can restore workers rights, policys that give true safty net for all who work , a national basic award condidtions and protections are only more lies if from the coalition. "

Yes true, but a labor government full of middle class professional blokes (like Shorten et al) who have no working class background (besides their father's/grandfather's stories) may well support a basic award and basic protections but will aquience to neo-con logic about productivity being linked to more flexible IR laws.

Beware of those who speak in your name but then treat you like a number

Belly,

Scout has explained why it could appear to some that you are against a woman leader.... you have given no sound reason why Gillard shouldn't be given the opportunity to lead.

This is why Labor is not doing well. It is what voters think that is the most important thing. But even more than that it is the small businesses and the non-aligned voters that Labor needs to win over.

The fact that John Howard became the PM was Labors fault not Howard's good work. Don't make the same mistakes over and over again.

As an outsider I have looked very carefully at all the people currently in Labor and let me say there aren't too many good options for leader.

So given that you have to look at who is performing the best. Gillard and Rudd are those two.

I don't think Beazley has the guts to go quietly.... I suspect he is hoping for a miracle... well the miracle will be another term for John Howard. Labor under Beazley is making Howard look like he wil be re-elected...

Are Labor that dumb? If they think the IR refoms will get Kim over the line they are kidding themselves ... the electorate have said no to Kim twice already. PLUS with all that is happening at the AWB enquiry, the Iraq war and John Howards abuse of his power in the senate .... Labor should be screaming up the polls... and yet they aren't.

The one constant... Beazley's lack of cred with the non-aligned voters. Time for Beazley to step down gracefully or perhaps he isn't a good enough politician to realise that he is the stone around Labors neck

The evedence you use against me in relation to Gillard is flimsy just as the words used to say Shorten is flawed by his time as a union leader or that he is from the nasty right.
The ALP has no chance , and not I think the will, to return to goverment as a socialist party.
Yes we gave goverment to Howard ,is it not clear we did so by runing with policys the puplic did not want?
And this party is placeing to much faith on only the IR issue to return it to power, anyone notice the Christmas closedown on this issue?
The center right of the party at least can get elected, the world has moved on we move with it or inflict further conservative goverments on Australia.
And very few wish to be accountable for their own actions on election day.
Unlike Simon Crean, Mark Latham and Julia Gillard I will not air why I think they each harmed my party, I continue to push for an election victory.

Oh now I get it.

Get the Labor party to dress up in conservative (code for progressive right wing) clothing - clothing that they can take off after they win. (shhh!no one will notice)

What a cunning plan!

Rainier ;0)

Belly

Sorry, looks like I have to repeat myself. Why do you describe Gillard as a train wreck? This is an extreme thing to say about someone. You appear to just want us to take your word for this description.

And Shorten IS very conservative maybe even more so than Beazley, therefore, Shorten isn't offering anything new - just the same old same old.

What are Shorten's views on IR changes?
On reasons for war in Iraq?
On scrapping of Atsic?
On child care?
On paternity/maternity leave?
On income tax below $40K or even $30k?
On GST?
On private/public school funding?
On HECS?
On environment?
On renewable fuels?

I can't say I have answers to all these questions from gillard, Rudd - although I know a lot about where Tanner stands.

But Shorten?

Subject was fixing the ALP so here is my plan, take note that majoritys elect goverment, and that being part of the majority is NOT proof you can not think straight.
Leadership, is it not clear we must have the debate and act soon?
Policys, why do some think to share policys sometimes with conservatives and the majority is makeing Labor too conservative?
Greens have plenty of room for new members so why do extreme leftys want to tilt at windmills trying to keep Labor on the opersition benchs?
The next ALP goverment will be in ten years if we again run lost dead policys and lost dead leaders.
In fact the 23 years in opersition may well be a once record unless we act now.
The IR issue will not win an election for a dead unresponsive party, dreams will not turn Kim into a poll leader .
And Gillard will never lead the ALP,anyone care to bet?

Back again so bared for next 24 hours Scout do you think Bill would suport the Changes? look in the AWU national pages for your answer seak out his speachs before you judge.
Tax? most know we need reform would you have ALP reform or Costellos.
I LIVE politics and research it every day my views are based on very real hope that Shorten is the new way I hoped Latham was, yes I found out just how very wrong I was, months before Australia voted.
And I could be wrong again ,but do not think I am wrong in saying waiting for a Labor victory we do not have to work for and change for , could be a long wait, too long for me.
nothing matters more than that victory, that means we all have to understand while all views have value some are not execpt able to the majority,
And who really cares now about why we went to Iraq? will it change votes? we know about lies heaps of them, but it still did not count for us on election day.
Are we to run children overboard and the Iraq war again this election? will AWB be more important to Joe average than fuel prices?
Will the election fall into our lapp or must we work for it?
All who work in Australia need a Labor victory to Change the IR laws to something mid stream from what they had been and what they now are.
We can not avoid the fact some bosses do not care about fairness, its the duty of every non conservative to work endlessly to put Labor in power.

Has anyone considered that it was not necessarily his policies (although Medicare Gold seemed pretty ridiculous to me) but Latham's character that was the main reason the ALP lost out last time. I for one was quite keen to see a change of government but couldn't bring myself to vote for someone quite so crass and volatile as our PM. At one point just before the election the ALP were ahead - it just took a bit of accurate character assassination by the media to undo everything. Beazley is a better statesman but just doesn't seem to stand for anything as far as I can see. I think if someone could give him a proverbial kick up the backside, show some leadership and announce some progressive policies it would be far better for the ALP to keep the status quo than carry on squabbling the way they are. If they can't manage to work together in opposition then they don't deserve to be in government at all.

Belly, Well you just outlined why the voters Labor needs on its side won't vote for Labor. How blind can you be.

No rainer I have outlined why and how the ALP must change ,well some who suport it at least.
The left of centre votes do not need to be won, they end up with the ALP in the lower house in any case.
Its not those votes who will elect the next goverment, it it the new conservatives who once followed Hawk and Keiting but would never leave Howard for a scrambled eggs Labor party.
We are bound to move with those voters or lie at Howards feet beaten again.
We can produce better policys in tax wealfare and imagration, industrial relations and health education and defence.
Why are you threatened by mainstream rule?
constant improvement and change within the Labour movement, yes unions too is a promise not a threat.
Medi care gold? I rest my case Gillard will never lead the party.

Belly,

How can you produce better policies? I saw Tanner on lateline the other night and he wouldn't talk about the policies. He was given a crucial opportunity to mention how employers will be effected by the new IR laws.

Just in case he reads this ... he should have mentioned
a. Employers have to keep logs of employees work hours for 7 years or heavy penalties apply.
b. This not only means more paperwork for employers but MORE IMPORTANTLY
c. It means that bosses will have a log of all the hours a worker works (even unpaid overtime) and the workers can come back at them at some later time (in Qld up to 6 years)for those unpaid hours! Is working extra hours for no money slave labour?

What Australia needs is a few simple things.

1. A system to fix up the Education system ... see the list of 11 major problems here for why it is in near collapse http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4173#33904

2. Go back to having high schools and technical schools so that both Academia and the trades are encouraged.

3. The medical system needs to be dramatically overhauled.

4. Get rid of Uni fees! Our small nation needs kids to be educated and not to have a huge debt before they have worked even one day in their chosen field.

5. Major infrastructure policy.... budget to make small surpluses.

6. Take the perks away from Govt ministers... they are growing fat on our taxes... literally!

7. Fix Centrelink & the Tax system and make it fair for families and small business.

8. Develop a reasonable way of dealing with refugees.

9. Develop an exit strategy for the troups in Iraq & Afghanistan

10. Develop a new IR policy that is fair to all bot workers and employers.

11. Get rid of Beazley for a Gillard/Rudd team

12. Listen to people other than Labor party hacks ... represent ALL Aussies fairly!

Can Labor cope with these simple methods to get re-elected? Anybody got any other points I missed?

Remember your views and in fact mine may not be those of those who are needed to change the way they voted last time to change anything.
The one place we do disagree is Gillard you keep your dreams I stay with the simple fact she is unelectable.
Lets look at the other side of the IR laws workers suffer far more.
However honest country town and rural firms who pay workers well are already under presure from city invaders cuting wages and conditions to gain goverment contracts.
Even the NSW goverment via its slothfull public service are useing firms who use AWA,s to take work , and more than
$2 per hour from workers and employers who have had that work for years under EBA,s.
Its sad but true that victims will grow as time passes.

Belly,

You are correct ... I guess you voted Labor last time.... I know I didn't.

So I am one of the voters that needs to be convinced that Labor can govern... and they aren't looking like it under Beazley.

A squabble amongst the factions, to a Labor voter, is seen as stupidity by non-Labor voters. Factional squabbling looks infantile...

Would you vote for a party that looks like a pack of school kids?

So when Beazley allows these squabbles to go on, he looks weak. OOps another reason people don't vote for Labor. They appear to have a weak leader. And what did he say about his handling of the squabbles
see http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1586281.htm

"Navel gazing" ... Amazing!

It seems that performance is not in your list of priorities and yet that is what most non-Labor voters expect.

So then we look at who is performing?

Well Belly... who do you see doing a great job in the public eye?

I used the example of Tanner to show how poor your party is when it comes to debating... Employers need to be told this stuff by an effective opposition... OOps but they keep forgetting to be effective!

Good luck! But I can see Labor in opposition for another 13 years if you ignore obvious facts.

Many, many people don't like Howard... but he is killing Beazley in the polls. Labor are the most infuriating party... they don't seem to learn from past errors.

Perhaps online opinion could find the time to run a poll here as to which Labor luminaries the non-Labor voters would vote prefer for PM.

Why don't we test the market place? I can almost guarantee that Beazley and Shorten wouldn't be at the top of the list.

read : http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18404913-17301,00.html

Beazley, having supported Howard's refugee policies had this to say in his election consession speech (NO:2)-

We have a nation with a capacity for a generosity of heart. Like any nation, there are dark angels in our nation but there are also good angels as well. And the task and challenge for those of us in politics is to bring out the generosity that resides in the soul of the ordinary Australian, that generosity of heart, so that we as a nation turn to each other and not against each other in the circumstances which [we] have."

Watching and hearing this on TV made me sick to the bones. I still am.

In NO 3, I predict Mr Hatrick Beazleay will utter something similar but waiting in the wings to take over the leadership will be MR Shorten.

Will he give a stuff that Labor will again be opposition? Of course not. He'll be happy to be in opposition because thats all he knows how to do.

Bill Shorten, Can't bat, Can't bowl, but does a wonderful impersonation of a Liberal backbencher.

Non Laborites who hate Howard deserve a better choice than the political frankenstiens their dysfuctional unionised factions create

Disclosure I beleave the greens have no part to play in the ALP.
Haveing lost 3 elections badly, some in the ALP thought it was time for renewal.
Removal of dead wood, and in some places just the introduction of outstanding new people would be good for the party and all who do not want conservative goverment.
Right or wrong some fought to stay blameing, maybe rightly factions ,just maybe some factions play a biger part in keeping Labor out of ofice.
Maybe some have gone as far as they can in the party?, can anyone think Creans time as leader was good for the ALP?
Is it wrong that many like me break into a trot and leave the room as he enters?
Can I be wrong to be amung so many who wil never forgive his recent outburst?
Kim Beazley is thrown at me by a poster who must see I do not think he can lead us to an election victory why?
The day after the last election loss was day one in this campaign, far too much annual leave is behind Kim , his plan to don the white shirt and kiss babys after mid term is a Wil Robinson one, lost in space he will not lead us next year.
Bill Shorten is far from tainted by his time as a union leader, he will serve the ALP with outstanding brilliance, many who decry him today will in the future try to claim they always knew he would be great.

Belly,

You seem to defend Shorten like he's the Labor Party Messiah, he hasn't done his political apprenticeship.

He is like Latham, an unknown thrust at the voters ... it doesn't work.

That's why poor Kim needs to resign and hand the party over to a new vibrant team, who are proven performers. Gillard & Rudd.

I am resigned to the fact that Labor won't get my vote next election because of three things.

1. Wrong Leader (appears weak, indecisive, too much baggage)
2. No firm policies (after 10 years of opposition)
3. Faction problems, squabbling - so can't govern properly

Labor hasn't a clue. They are so far removed from working Aussies ... living it up on Taxpayers money.

What's there IR policy.... we don't know
What's ther Education Policy.... we don't know
etc. etc.

Tanner said they would release policies in the time frame it suited them... Gee what about it suiting the voters they are trying to attract? We are 18 months from an election and I want to know how they will govern ... will they be fair to families?

That is another mistake they made last election... they released there policies so late that when the flaws appreared they didn't have time to fix them.

Firstly there shouldn't have been any flaws (they had 7 years to get them right) but secondly they should fix them faster. It is better to be seen to amend a policy at the time a flaw is pointed out than to defend the flaw.

You say you live politics and yet now you say "I beleive the greens have no part to play in the ALP". Yes they do - Labor needs there preferences!... Don't burn bridges Belly...

I will never say that I was pro Shorten... I will only say "I told you so" when he fails to get the ALP into office next election if crazy enough to put him as leader before he has done his apprentiship.

You will probably vote Labor ... are they clever & honest enough to get mine - a non-aligned voter?

You and I agree on one thing, the fact releaseing policys like a drip feed is strange and wrong.
A real concern for me as it seems to point to a party bound to try harder next time in 2010.
The fact is step one is geting better policys out and selling them now people change by degrees and thats what a confedent party is about to do, a real switch to Labor is comeing but not enought without policys, those if they exist should be aired now.
What learning time did Bob Hawk have before he became leader?
Surely you understand Shorten has been nominated a future ALP leader long ago?
On what evedence do you brand him a union hack?
Greens may use preferences as they wish ,its my view a vote not for the ALP in the lower house is a vote for Howard.

Belly,

I didn't call Shorten a Labor Party Hack ...

I said - Listen to people other than Labor party hacks ... represent ALL Aussies fairly!

What it means is that the Labor Party should listen to all Australians equally not just members of the Labor party.

I agree that the drip feeding method of releasing policy is a poor tactic... but Labors tacticians have great success behind them they keep losing!

They have been in opposition now for 10 years... surely they can see that after that long they should have developed some effective policies that will stand up to scrutiny. I agree it shows a lack of confidence... and again that can only come from the leader ... Kim ain't got it.

I mentioned Bob Hawke earlier Belly. Times have changed and he was well known throughout Australia. You can't compare Hawke's stature in the community back then with Shorten's now.

Bob Hawke was in the papers every day... I haven't seen Shortens name except from you here. He hasn't got the profile or the parliamentary history to win Belly.

A vote for the Greens or the Dems or an independent is a protest against both Liberal/Nats & Labor. People are allowed to protest belly and that is the only way they can these days. If people don't vote Labor then it is Labors fault... you can't blame the people by saying it's a vote for Howard I'm afraid

Belly wrote: Surely you understand Shorten has been nominated a future ALP leader long ago?

I have no doubt he was.

But does this mean those anointed are somehow born to rule? No matter what they say, do or don't say or do?

Surely the Labor party is much more internally democratic and politically rigorous than to rely on popularity contests where flavour of the month people like Shorten gets a shot cos some old union codger reckons he's the next Labor Messiah pin up boy?

He’s not the messiah; he’s just a naughty little boy. (apologies to Monty python)

Only when Labor cleary outlines its bottom line on a range of policies will we have a definitive understanding of leadership potential. Shorten exists only because of this policy vacuum.

And this is the sad truth, Rainier wrote:

"Only when Labor cleary outlines its bottom line on a range of policies will we have a definitive understanding of leadership potential. Shorten exists only because of this policy vacuum."

With the AWB running hot in the media, where is Labor? They could be offering an alternative accountable, responsible government. A government that will communicate with its departments, that will keep up with events no matter if they fall into the 'too hard basket'.

The silence is deafening. Another opportunity lost, like GST, children overboard, WMD's, stolen generation and on and on....

Still I am listening, but I'm not hearing anything much. Just a bit of outrage from Rudd, barely a ripple from Beazley and NOTHING from Shorten.

Can't see myself voting for Labor again :-(

Its the portfolio Rudd handles and he has done a great job chaseing this goverments pork pies on the issue.
Shorten not yet even in the house has no mandate to talk on the issue.
Beazley has never stopped talking on the issue but the press rarely shows his coments.
The thread shows just how hard it would be for ANY Labor leader to win, talk of punishing both conservative and Labor?
Has the poster any idea that in the lower house its not posible? either conservative or Labor will get the vote unless its a rare independent seat.
And we are again and again seeing people want personalitys before policys?
Bill Shorten will one day lead Australia ,it may take ten years but he will do so because he understands the direction this country must go.
Policys are the answer those who would inflict Howard on us to teach Labor a lesson are to be laughted at but its sad not funny.

According to your logic Belly, the next election is already won by the conservatives and Bill Shorten will lead us into the promised land sometime in the future.(2010 ?)

Look up, is that a pig flying over your house?

In Orwell's book animal farm (have you read it

"Under the guidance of our Leader, Comrade Napoleon, I have laid five eggs in six days"; or two cows, enjoying a drink at the pool, would exclaim, "Thanks to the leadership of Comrade Napoleon, how excellent this water tastes!" The general feeling on the farm was well expressed in a poem entitled Comrade Napoleon, which was composed by Minimus and which ran as follows:

Friend of fatherless!

Fountain of happiness!

Lord of the swill-bucket! Oh, how my soul is on

Fire when I gaze at thy

Calm and commanding eye,

Like the sun in the sky,

Comrade Napoleon!

Thou are the giver of

All that thy creatures love,

Full belly twice a day, clean straw to roll upon;

Every beast great or small

Sleeps at peace in his stall,

Thou watchest over all,

Comrade Napoleon!

Had I a sucking-pig,

Ere he had grown as big

Even as a pint bottle or as a rolling-pin,

He should have learned to be

Faithful and true to thee,

Yes, his first squeak should be

"Comrade Napoleon!"

Napoleon approved of this poem and caused it to be inscribed on the wall of the big barn, at the opposite end from the Seven Commandments. It was surmounted by a portrait of Napoleon, in profile, executed by Squealer in white paint

Friend how did you gather the idea that I think like that?the thread is about fixing the ALP.
It can not be done by insulting the voters with recycled and rejected policys or leaders.
Surely only the greens would want Gillard in Labor leadership?
Surely only they are ready to forgive the part she and medecare gold played in Lathams tragic surender?
Shorten is almost evil in your posts? why? on what evedence?.
Is it not clear the lack of concern for the AWB shamefull scandal, the workchoices murder of fairness in the workplace is because many are far to comfortable to care?
Dream your dreams but reality is not leftist, no people lead revolt is to win this election for Labor.
Look to England and understand Tony Blair leads the way to Labor.
The thought that the election will fall into our arms is folly.
If we work every day never stoping we may just win ,it is unlikely without that effort and change.
That fact fills me with fear, but reality remains.

Fixing the ALP, hard time for me I know without doupt had Kim Beazley been ALP leader in the last election the Howard victory would have been trimmed.
In no way the train wreck it turned out to be, and the upper house would have not been lost.
Yes Howard would still be prime minister, and another would be leading the ALP today, strangley that would have been in all proberbility Mark Latham.
Kim you are a good bloke hearing you speak with so much pride about our troops in desert storm will remain a memory that I never forget.
Bloke its time, AWB new plans to imprison children, lies and the shame of workchoices?
We must fight an election we can win , mate its time please go.
Good luck and good by to a real good bloke.

Belly, My sentiments exactly. Kimbo, Kimbo its time to go.

Punters need to feel more compelled to vote with confidence in a new leader because protest votes against Howard will not deliver a victory.

The arrival of a new leader, timed properly, just a smidgeon outside of an election might do the trick and get the kind of media interest required.

A break away Left party coalition?

Sorry, Belly, but much as I admire your passion and loyalty, and I very much do, it’s time for a fact check. The reason for the Coalition Senate majority is only peripherally to do with Latham. It’s much more that the Victorian ALP – yes, Rooster (sorry - Senator) Conroy, I DO mean you) tried to be too clever by seven eighths, and did a deal to minimise the legitimate electoral effect of Green preferences. This utterly skewed the result, losing Labor its expected Senate seat, or losing the Greens a seat they’d have won on raw votes or Labor preferences, with the seat instead going to Senator 1.2 per cent Steve Fielding. Senator Conroy, I think we should remember, is a Blancmange Beazley loyalist. Without Conroy’s tactical mastery, the perennial wild card that is Queensland would have been negated.

Conroy, I believe, strongly supports Shorten. We should all draw our own conclusions from this

And I support Conroy, without pain or shame, you cut a few corners in lessening Lathams blame.
And lets not forget the lost Tasmanian seats, no new coalition will be formed , no welcome to the greens into Labors rooms.
Its clear even the very left can and will contribute but Labor must remain Labor .
Shorten will not make the leadership roll soon, its too late for that or maybe too early for Bill, he will serve well and bring new followers via whatever roll he fills.
One day he will lead but for now Steve Smith Wayne Swan or third choice Rudd must emerge.
This election is not a game, its life for fairness in Australia.
Kim, sometimes it hurts to hurt a friend but for me and you party first second and only.

Belly,

Wayne Swan & Steve Smith wouldn't cut it as leader ... sorry mate but you are barking up the wrong tree. Neither Swan or Smith have the persona to deliver the hard job of promoting the ALP in the media. It isn't a personality thing it is the lack of confidence they show when being interviewed.

Rudd is a very confident, articulate speaker and if Labor won't give Gillard the nod he would be my second choice. He is confident, articulate, can think on the run and has a sound political background.

I have become more and more impressed with him during the AWB investigations. However he would need Gillard as deputy.

I also think that Gillard or Rudd as leader would be smart enough to realise that they should get their policies out there.

Isn't Senator Conroy one of the power brokers from Victoria who took on Crean and lost.... If he is a faction leader and did that just when Labor were making some inroads into Howard then he lacks political timing skills and he is a person I could never support.

Labors backroom boy system does not auger well for open and honest government in the eyes of non-aligned voters I'm afraid.

I take your view that I am barking up the wrong tree as a medal of honor.
Do not get me wrong ,our verbal tennis played on this coart does not undermine my respect for you or your views but heard of the teflon twins? long before our debates started they had the public persona of future leaders.
One or the other would run 10 points above Beazley in the leadership poll in one month of takeing over.
Rudd has the floor, its his portfolio the lies about buying weapons for Iraq to use against Australian troopsis his battle
And answer this honestly please, did Creans time in leadership hurt the ALP?
Do you see him haveing a part to play in the party? what roll? how please tell me can the party ever renew if it viewed as unfair?
Could you list some on the goverment or Labor benchs who could best serve by leaveing?
How do we handle Kim? Conroy may well have tryied help the party not hurt it.
My view is he did nothing wrong healthy trees shed leaves.

Belly,

I too respect your views... It is good to debate ... Feel free to take my comment of barking up the wrong tree as a medal of honour... I hope I am wrong because I think the Liberals have done enough wrong to be voted out next election... I just can't see Labor beating them with the people you mention at the helm.

I actually thought Crean was going to be a good fiesty leader but then he changed and probably hurt Labor. He seemed to lose the fire in his belly when he became leader. He lost the spark.

I kept hoping he would fire up again as the opposition should express the outrage it feels on behalf of the people when the Johnny Howards of this world take us to war based on faulty intelligence...etc.

The problem with trimming the tree is you sometimes take some good wood with the old wood... I think Crean still has a lot to offer and it was correct that he won his right to contest his seat at the next election.

Didn't the guy Crean defeated suddenly get a seat in State politics?... Amazing!

I'm not knowing enough to talk about the Labor side and who should resign because they are too quiet... but I would be happy if most Liberals retired...lol I am not a fan of Senator Fawkner ... I also don't think he is very effective.

Everyone in Labor think they are helping Labor Belly... It is just some like may go too far and at the wrong time. Conroy's alleged choice lost .. and in the battle Howard was let off the hook again.

I should have said glimmer twins, but let me tell you leaves falling from trees and cuting trees is a thing I understand its life.
I grow trees for fruit and once trimmed more and better fruit than ever follows, that has to be first step in a party that has forgot how to win.
Policys now, a new IR system to better Howards, less Gillard self promotion for a job she will NEVER get, a true interal debate about leadership, and maybe more by elections after those trimmed leaves leave early.
We should get our new blood in the house before 2007 not retain dead wood.

So the interesting thread died those who watch such threads here may wonder as I do at some internal blasting at partys direction.
Look at the polls and its not hard to find our problem, the Labor/union/non conservative movement places too much hope in solidarity.
Can it be we are planning a last minute campaign? or even a last months change of leadership?
If so we betray non conservative Australia, my other, clearly a new leader is part one plan?
Fund by public donation starting now every marjinal Labor seat in Australia.
Clearly we will battle to match conservative donations from big busness, and just as clearly Howard will cry.
But Australia needs a change now.

Belly, Like you I gave up on solidarity, [class unity] years ago.
However, I have yet to hear what will replace it. I am uncomfortable with centrism simply because it stands for nothing and everything at any given moment. Wars and fear have always elected conservative governments. So too has greed. Winning government at any cost is stupid and dangerous. Is this what your are advocating?

I am trying to reverse history, both the dreadfull DLP and the Labor left for decades stood by willing to let Labor stay out of power rather than face truth.
Truth that says a Labor goverment even my hoped for New Labor would be far better than any conservative goverment, surely Tony Blair has done much you like?
We can not plant spuds and ask why we are not harvesting pumkins, Australia is not ready to elect a greens goverment and never will be.
A leftist Labor team will run second for 100 years, are we duty bound to govern for non conservatives or entench Howard in the house?
Its ok to dream but this punter has never seen the clerk of the coarse win a race at Randwick.
Labor needs internal bickering about direction less now than ever 3 more years of Johny short bottom would be dreadfull.

Belly

Labor has been right of centre since Hawke, all Johnny has done is run with the economy as set up by Paul. While Labor continues to offer the same it will never eradicate lil Johnny.

Yet you believe that Labor should remain right wing? We need a party that respects the worker and small business. Currently both major parties only respect corporate politics.

And BTW, unless there is a major shift towards equity in the workplace, solid environmental strategies etc, I will be voting Greens.

Belly, Theres only a paper thin difference between a centrist (closet Right wing) Labor party and a Coalition led by Peter Costello. Same dog, different hair cut mate.

The ALP was formed by workers in hard times and true it is moveing away from them at a steady pace, and they are moveing away from Labor at a greater pace.
Is it not clear that the Greens are never going to govern? never going to change anything?.
I am not unaware that most non conservative anti Labor posts come from the Greens suporters.
One union is openly talking about leaveing the ALP to go green, so be it.
Maths gentle men can you see other than Labor beating Howard?, are the greens to be his best weapon? divide and all that?
Labor/ Hawk/Keiting and Blair are following the voters execpting reality not day dreaming.
This election may be the first of 3 or 4 that see,s the senate swing towards conservative or Labor, less small partys that would be good for Australia.
I will stand with all who work and vote for the only party that can change it John Howard can not number me amung his followers.

The thread highlights the authors intent, from within the ALP and some who are in fact greens constant complaints about Labors direction.
And the thought that Costello is like Labor?
Has the very real pain on all who work inflicted by workchoices sunk in?.
Can it be that some think a Costello goverment would undo this insult to workers?
Yes I come from Labors centre right, name me a leader who both won an election and did not come from there, name me a leftist leader in modern times.
A refugee from my leftist branch of the party its very true that we need to focus on wining an election may I advise the radical left that the greens have plenty of room?
Labor must take a different direction, we have no time to play Australia needs good goverment too much.

Well,Beazley-has-outdone-himself-in-today’s-meeting-with-the National-Press-Club. ‘Ideology’ is out whether left-wing ideology or the vicious Conservative ideology that informs Howard’s IR agenda. Unfortunately, this is code for ‘ideology (ie: values) out, opportunism in’.Budget surpluses are to be expected in all instances except ‘absolute economic collapse. ’What is more, having promised tax cuts to individuals on over $60,000/year, Beazley went on to describe ‘middle Australia’ as those on Around $55,000/year. Beazley’s speech was full of references to this ‘middle Australia’ – but there was little mention of those on lower incomes nor any mention of how so called ‘Average Weekly Earnings’ is distorted by the omission of part-time workers, pensioners and the unemployed.

Instead of tax cuts for the ‘high end’ (masquerading as ‘middle Australia’) we need tax credits now for those on lower incomes –especially for those in the process of moving from welfare to work.

The only bright spark in the speech was Beazley’s promise to tackle Howard’s industrial relations legislation – but with no details this is still an area of concern for ordinary ALP members. Will the IRC be restored to its former prominence, will there be a right to strike, will elements of ‘Work Choices’ be retained?

We need, now, to begin campaigning for an alternative tax agenda: one that uses tax credits to tackle poverty while restructuring PAYE tax scales to pay for this process in a manner that is revenue neutral overall. What is more, we need to be open to options such as a Wealth Tax in order to fund desperately needed programs in health, education and aged care. To get the issue in perspective, we need about $5 billion to address the crisis of hospital waiting lists. How does this sit with a promise of ‘no new taxes’ and sweeping tax cuts?

Beazley seems to promise everything – but you can’t afford significant boosts to expenditure in vital areas without progressive tax reform including tax increases in some areas – and this is the message that needs to become the ‘common sense’ of the ALP well before the next election, with or without Beazley as leader.

Tristan wrote:
"Instead of tax cuts for the ‘high end’ (masquerading as ‘middle Australia’) we need tax credits now for those on lower incomes –especially for those in the process of moving from welfare to work".

Tristan,

Couldn't agree more. However, will this "middle Australia" vote in unison for tax credits for those on lower incomes?

The Howard government knows full well that downward envy and wedges work very well for the 'aspirational middle Australians’ such as the unemployed, lone parents, the young, those with disabilities, asylum seekers, Indigenous people, the frail, the aged and other relatively powerless citizens.

Until the Bomber (or whoever the next leader will be?) can strategically link support by middle Australia to these groups as an economic as well as ideological synergy, it will always be open to Howard to exploit at will.

The whole economic construct of “middle Australia” is itself a political wedge between the rich and the very poor.

What are your thoughts on this?

`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>

Well, I think welfare state universalism - improving services in health, education and aged care services to be used by all Australians is part of the answer. Tax credits for lower income Australians would have to be part of a broader strategy of which solidaristic taxation and universalism in social expenditure (eg: Medicare) would be the centrepiece. Add to this concern over IR and I think there's a chance of victory. Remember - so called 'middle Australia' - in Beazley's estimate those on $55,000/year - are, in reality, a minority. The constituency of those on lower incomes is larger - and Labor should attempt to appeal to these voters as a bloc. I think, also, that the notion that you can't have quality social services without taxation is sellable if only someone had the guts to try.

I agree that 'Menzies' forgotten people' - or 'middle Australia' is a construct designed to split the working class. Many of these people, however, are also unionists who would be fearful of Howard's IR agenda. Others would appreciate the case for more infrastructure expenditure. Others would appreciate that you can't have it all - if you want to cut hospital waiting lists it has to be paid for. Of course you'd lose some of these people - but imagine the votes you'd pick up from those on lower incomes if you appealed directly to their class interests - including job security, services etc.

In short - I think it can be done here as it's been done in Scandanavia, France and other countries - but it takes leadership - soemthing that I think is in short supply in the Labor Party.

Finally, some of the taxation measures - such as abolishing dividend imputation, introducing a wealth tax for millionaires etc - would not hit 'middle Australia' very hard anyway. Labor needs, itself, to start playing class politics again - and building a majority constituency for change. If John Howard could win an election with a GST I think Labor can do this if only it tries.

Tristan

What Labor doe,s not need is to forget any one section of the electorate .
We are not going to be elected with a Robin Hood policys that is surely clear?
However equaly clear Labor will give rights taken by Workchoices back and look after the poor much better.
Come with me to work today, as a careing but never radical trade union oficial and meet people who are working poor right now.
True Aussie battlers and ask them who can help them.
Only Labor, dream of Robin and his lads but know your dream is not shared by enought to win a raffle in the pub tonight.
Labor , any Labor goverment cares more than a conservative one.
And those Australia needs a change in real direction not dreams.

Belly - with your attitude we never would have achieved a progressive taxation system in the first place. Why are tax credits for low income indiviudals nothing but a 'dream'? Policies of redistribution and robust social expenditure have worked elsewhere - why not here? Redistributon is a core tenet of social democracy. Give up on this and we may as well give up on social democracy itself. Do this and there's no point in politics except ambition, corruption, self-aggrandisement, ego...... The minute we give up on social justice there's just no point in going on.

The acheavements of the ALP did not come from the left they came from the Hawk/Keiting years.
Even Howard in a speach just days ago said our curent good position was due to things goverment did 15 and 20 years ago.
After Keiting we lost our way, the very left have had power behond numbers and have miss used it to harm our vote.
Again surely its clear? the dream that an ALP goverment MUST govern for the poor is unrealistic isnt it?
Lets understand I come from the very poorest of the poor, I hate povity, but its only a part of a countrys needs.
While Labor will try harder than conservatives to fix this problem a country must be goverened for all.
Fixing Australia and the ALP must involve reality.
I think far too many well meaning people involve themselves in the povity debate without an understanding throwing dollars at it is waste.

Bring on the ALP, Howard and the coalition can look you in the eye and say with a straight face the earth is flat. Go back 15 to 20 years and no one liked Howard because they could see straight though him. Next time you have that vote in front of you, vote 1 labor or geens , democrats, independent. I would rather a sensible 15yo run this country than the current Libs and Nats.

Dear Interest rate voters, your vote is the reason for this current mob of Cowards. Howard does not control interest rates.

Work Choices is going to cost 500 million+ to implement, A real leader would of spent that on renewable energy and childcare,etc.

If ,and I doupt it the threads author ever visits a grin must come as evedence that factions are indeed still at work ,even here.
My ALP!my love for it and hope in it never lessens!but we do have ever increaseing ways to blame voters for our problems, even saying Howard filled them with fear!
Given my eductation was hardly great learning to read and write long after my teenage years had past and not quite learning to spell yet, I found the ALP years ago!
So lets look for another answer,Why did the party wander so far from the Hawke/Keitings policys?
Can it be we need to understand elections are won by majoritys?or that some policys we put up are stupid?
That a policy that drives 2 voters away from us to keep one that was always ours is indeed insane?
A policy put by Latham [remember I AM A UNION OFICIAL] that AWA,s would be withdrawn was insane! loverly thought but lost more than it won, and they will be one way wages are paid forever under ANY goverment in Australia, haveing to earn my members holds no fear for me.
Leave Iraq? grandstanding! never won us a vote not already commited to us! it truth if we have such a policy lets talk to our freinds and do it behind the scenes it hurt Labor, needlessly.
Shall I go on? or will we agree policys matter?
We are sly out of the mud and heading to goverment we earn but without leadership it may be 2010 are we brave enought to put Australia and all who work in front of misplaced loyalty?
Pray we are mate pray!

Belly wrote "think far too many well meaning people involve themselves in the povity debate without an understanding throwing dollars at it is waste".

Well now you've got me interested Belly because poverty isn't just an indicator of a lack of cash. Its also about the civil society indicators that allow people to get themselves out of the poverty trap.

But all I hear from you and your New Labor is that 'throwing money will be waste". No policy, just a rant about the need to not waste money and side swipes at anyone that questions the gap between the rich and the poor. There's nothing 'well meaning' about people who point to this growing gap, many of them (including myself) live it and know it all too well

Tell your union members doing it hard that I and others who are against the rich getting richer that we are just 'well meaning' but misguided ideologues. But of course you wouldn't.

You should resign from being a Union rep for workers, you're just not up to it.

Rainier do not speak with your mouth full! think and speak with both your mind and heart open!
A son, the eldest in fact of A railway fettler[ basic low paid Larourer] 16 kids hungrey kids 8 lived to be teenagers.
Hard work and trouble killed my dad at 54 years of age, heart attack they said.
Now still half my pay often feeds some of my familly and often others who are unable to get out of the povity trap.
Your words are rude! my members know and trust me! and I want far better for the poor, maybe than you do.
Wealfare must be a path out of hunger not a seat to be used as a home, goverments once used jobs like council work, state and federal goverment jobs as unstated wealfare system in rural Australia now we demolish those jobs and pay contractors more to do that work.
Some are quite compfortable in wealfare, have no wish to move, this is a self inflicted wound!
Wealfare should be about makeing a job a meaning full job that in no way competes with existing work for the unemployed.
not low paid self distroying holidays for life.
I know some will never listen and hate me for it but I cry yes true as I see the well meaning wealfare supporters distroy in the name of kindness Australias Aboridginal people and that action , that refusal to see the outcomes of our blind policys shames us all.
Povity can be fought but not without true understanding.

I still say resign, you have rolled over and adopted the downward envy and distructive rhetoric of the conservatives who demonise and put every welfare recipient in one basket.

What are your New Labor welfare -to- Work policies Belly?

Answer: You don't have any. Instead you just borrow this old neo-con line about "dole bludgers" and try to dress it up as a working class virtue. It is not.

When you do finally get around to developing some policies of substance you might have to do some research into those who you call welfare bludgers and be shocked to find they are people connected to your own union. Blaming the victims of economic rationism remains youre framework for your conception of poverty, and a misguided justification for your bias against the poor.

Ask your members what they think about your bias Belly. They will be more than happy to tell where to go.

Rainier you would not wish to hear what any unions members think.
And you draw your opinions about me by viewing the world only as you wish to see it!
In the mid 1950,s dole was harder to get than charity and at times my familly needed both to just live.
In the 1960,s it was easyer but the people paid to handle it spoke to those in need in dreadfull ways.
Dureing the late 1970,s those of us who dropped in for a beer on the way home from work often heard with awe and respect the storeys of those who both worked and got the dole.
Now I know famillys who have 7 kids 2 4x4s and one car! all on the dole [ fact not fiction this grubby union oficial bought christmas one year for those kids after dad drank the dole check]
I could take you in one hour to another family or any of the nine sub groups of it, who have zero who work amung them.
Oh sorry not true! each works in a black market way! one cell rebuilds cars for cash and big cash at that!
Labor has much room to rebuild social wealfare, if they remove the people who use it wrongly we could see a true liveing wage for those in need.
If true value true paid true work for the dole, my prefered option if I ever needed it, was in place it would show up Howards evil scheme for what it is.
Do not confer sainthood on the poor, I am a true activist and get real full time jobs and even training for people in need, but some avoid work like an illness.
You remind me of why I left the left!an ALP goverment will and must reform wealfare.

Haveing made up my mind that this is my last visit to this thread, constant insults towards me ,my faction, and my union, strange mostly from the greens? makes it unwise to continue.
Questions and some answers,some views too need looking at.
Why is it the greens so freely involve themselves in ALP policys?
Appart from preferences most Labor voters, yes not all are uninterested in them.
A view shared by most Australians.
Factions, well we would not be the ALP without them, and I mostly find them as the author does, part of the reason we hold power in all states and will again do so federaly.
My proud union! like all unions we missed the issue of halos, but we are not radical, some say weak? not however our members!.
That internal warfare within the ALP and its factions often blows out into the union movement, why? mostly its about convinceing members to switch from one union to another truth is always a victim.
Some true leaders one day will come along and see the union movement should remember why they exist, and its not factional fighting.
And my ALP NSW right faction, folks we are the ALP not greens not anything else the Australian Labor Party, our task is to govern, and to do so well, for ALL Australians.
If my faction is so evil, so wrong, why are our numbers so much more?
Who last governed in Australia from the left?

Without the ALP and the unions workers have nothing thats the facts.
Howard voters thanks for nothing. Howard is Destroying Australia.
Belly your a good fellow seeya mate.

So as its not worth the effort to continue posting in a thread that insults the ALP and at times says the answer is to cut out the bigest faction, the most sucsessfull faction, I have my final say.
Do not live in islolation from the voters, my life is every day right at the lunch tables with them.
They told me we faced distruction last time, no one listened, they want change now but lack faith the party doe,s yes they await leadership change and say without it we are done for.
They are not some ledgenary workers united, do not wait for street marchs they will not come in numbers big enought to matter.
They are not left leaning and hate political corectness.
They want to vote Labor, but not for its leader, they want more action from Labor on workchoices and are unconvinced that we think we can win this election.
And not very deep down inside in fact right on the surface I question the partys plan, Kim Beazley once said he would not run a last minute policys election, has he forgotten already?
I leave the forum to those who seem oposed to Labor governing Australia, but rest assured my vote belongs to them alone
My union my party my faction my hopes for Australia all depend on the ALP.

Right wing workers? Arrh.. now I get it! All for one and all for one.
Greed and fear, Howard's hillsong of workers.

Ah you had to have the last word! and so you shall, this must be my last post in this thread, its as close as I wish to get to the Greens.
Workers are people, some earn $90.000 a year own two homes a pair of cars one is changed every 3 years and shares!ever seen a smelter workers payslip?
Some have holes in the backside of pants they continue to wear ,rent houses, drive $200 cars and hand out conservatives HTV,s on election day.
Now some unlike me and you, accualy swing from one party to the other at voteing time.
Those who left our side of the fence to swing with John Howard will not return because they are WORKERS!
Right wing ALP? surely you want us to govern? looney lefts chances are nil!
Tony Blair turned around a Thatcherite England we , given new leadership can too!
Without it?without the bigest faction in the ALP? come now!
It is my honestly held view the extreme left harms the non conservative vote often.

I do share with you a deep loathing of the lunatic Left belly, being Indigenous I know their destructive presense in Indigenous affairs all too well. But you will should understand that whilst Blair tossed out the Thatcherite Right Wing, his 'third way' - anti ideological wishy washy standpoint is on the wane.

Fence sitting might feel good for a while. But the Rights of workers,the Rights of the Poor should not be given to people like Shorten and others to negotiate and play with on their theoretically corrupt spinning wheels. They are not grounded, they will neve be.
They live in perpetual orbit of thier neo-con ideas of themselves.

John Howard disgusts me, this current government is basicly being run by big business. Howard is a lying evil man and having control of the senate has shown his true colours.