"Only a Labor goverment can restore workers rights, policys that give true safty net for all who work , a national basic award condidtions and protections are only more lies if from the coalition. "

Yes true, but a labor government full of middle class professional blokes (like Shorten et al) who have no working class background (besides their father's/grandfather's stories) may well support a basic award and basic protections but will aquience to neo-con logic about productivity being linked to more flexible IR laws.

Beware of those who speak in your name but then treat you like a number

Belly,

Scout has explained why it could appear to some that you are against a woman leader.... you have given no sound reason why Gillard shouldn't be given the opportunity to lead.

This is why Labor is not doing well. It is what voters think that is the most important thing. But even more than that it is the small businesses and the non-aligned voters that Labor needs to win over.

The fact that John Howard became the PM was Labors fault not Howard's good work. Don't make the same mistakes over and over again.

As an outsider I have looked very carefully at all the people currently in Labor and let me say there aren't too many good options for leader.

So given that you have to look at who is performing the best. Gillard and Rudd are those two.

I don't think Beazley has the guts to go quietly.... I suspect he is hoping for a miracle... well the miracle will be another term for John Howard. Labor under Beazley is making Howard look like he wil be re-elected...

Are Labor that dumb? If they think the IR refoms will get Kim over the line they are kidding themselves ... the electorate have said no to Kim twice already. PLUS with all that is happening at the AWB enquiry, the Iraq war and John Howards abuse of his power in the senate .... Labor should be screaming up the polls... and yet they aren't.

The one constant... Beazley's lack of cred with the non-aligned voters. Time for Beazley to step down gracefully or perhaps he isn't a good enough politician to realise that he is the stone around Labors neck

The evedence you use against me in relation to Gillard is flimsy just as the words used to say Shorten is flawed by his time as a union leader or that he is from the nasty right.
The ALP has no chance , and not I think the will, to return to goverment as a socialist party.
Yes we gave goverment to Howard ,is it not clear we did so by runing with policys the puplic did not want?
And this party is placeing to much faith on only the IR issue to return it to power, anyone notice the Christmas closedown on this issue?
The center right of the party at least can get elected, the world has moved on we move with it or inflict further conservative goverments on Australia.
And very few wish to be accountable for their own actions on election day.
Unlike Simon Crean, Mark Latham and Julia Gillard I will not air why I think they each harmed my party, I continue to push for an election victory.

Oh now I get it.

Get the Labor party to dress up in conservative (code for progressive right wing) clothing - clothing that they can take off after they win. (shhh!no one will notice)

What a cunning plan!

Rainier ;0)

Belly

Sorry, looks like I have to repeat myself. Why do you describe Gillard as a train wreck? This is an extreme thing to say about someone. You appear to just want us to take your word for this description.

And Shorten IS very conservative maybe even more so than Beazley, therefore, Shorten isn't offering anything new - just the same old same old.

What are Shorten's views on IR changes?
On reasons for war in Iraq?
On scrapping of Atsic?
On child care?
On paternity/maternity leave?
On income tax below $40K or even $30k?
On GST?
On private/public school funding?
On HECS?
On environment?
On renewable fuels?

I can't say I have answers to all these questions from gillard, Rudd - although I know a lot about where Tanner stands.

But Shorten?

Subject was fixing the ALP so here is my plan, take note that majoritys elect goverment, and that being part of the majority is NOT proof you can not think straight.
Leadership, is it not clear we must have the debate and act soon?
Policys, why do some think to share policys sometimes with conservatives and the majority is makeing Labor too conservative?
Greens have plenty of room for new members so why do extreme leftys want to tilt at windmills trying to keep Labor on the opersition benchs?
The next ALP goverment will be in ten years if we again run lost dead policys and lost dead leaders.
In fact the 23 years in opersition may well be a once record unless we act now.
The IR issue will not win an election for a dead unresponsive party, dreams will not turn Kim into a poll leader .
And Gillard will never lead the ALP,anyone care to bet?