"Obviously these, once placed in context, are cultural and time specific references for the Jewish society."
And Muslims could reply likewise. So those passages were relevant to the particular circumstances of the Hebrews in those times, but no longer are? Ie. there was some particular culturally specific reason then as to why male Hebrew slaves had to be set free but not the slave's wife or children. Circumstances justifying the slaughter of babies, stoning people for working on the sabbath, taking/raping women from groups they conquered, burning whores alive etc., killing witches, that no longer exist? Again, Muslims could make similar claims about certain suras; the environment upon which Islam was founded was closer to that of Moses than that of Jesus. It was an improvement on the culture that previously existed and was arguably more tolerant at the time than Xianity was.

"Can you point out for me where the modern Church practises any of these?"
Well I do believe a nun was crucified the other week in order to free her from demons, but why does it matter what is practiced? Either the rules are correct or they are not, whether or not the rules are practiced doesn't affect their validity. If it is OK in some circumstances to slaughter babies, take slaves, rape women, kill non-believers, stone people for swearing, cut off a woman's hand if she grabbed a guy's genitals in order to save her husband's life, then how can you say that comparable features did not or do not exist in some Muslim nations or all nations?

I'm not going to defend those suras, but I don't think you can defend the passages I listed either. They are all remnants of less developed societies. I could have also included passages against homosexuality , which most Churches accept, but that would be a distraction. One's own apologetics should be considered before attacking the corresponding weaknesses of another. Challenge those who *do* practice.

Injustice and inequality doesn't have to be extreme to be wrong. Ruled over, obedient, subject to, disqualified from priesthood, homemakers; it is still inequality.

So London has been bombed... Who can it be? Hindus? Buddhists? Christians? Jews?

The fact is that we all know who does this, again and again and again. The rounds of excuses and denials have already begun, by Muslims (ie,... this is not the true Islam, Islam is a religion of peace, bla, bla, bla... wink, wink...)

The sad truth is that Islam is intolerant and oppressive. Everywhere Muslims dominate other religions, women, jews, gays are persecuted. Muslims in the west enjoy the benefits of Western Civilization, but cannot see the cruel, ugly reality of Islam. Is this blindness or takeyya (deception)?

Isn't it interesting that this gentlemen is from the same group that uses hate laws to silence people who say things about Islam that are exactly those found in Islamic literature with Muslims in Melourne? Of course, Imams who advocate rape or Muslims preaching hate are fine with the PC folks. What hypocrisy!

Mark my words, it is bad and it will get worse. Shame!!

John Kactu

Deuc

thanx for raising those important but often misunderstood passages.

Em touched on the crucial issue of context, both historical and theological. 350 words is nowhere near enough to address the issues raised by your 'from thehip/shotgun' approach :) but never mind.

You said.
"I'm not going to defend those suras, but I don't think you can defend the passages I listed either".

I'll highlight a couple of points for your consideration.

The primary difference between the way God dealt with the emerging Israelite nation, and how God allegedly addresses humanity thru the Quran, is this.

Israelites: There were 'nation specific' rules which can be seen from the primary covenanental foundation of the Decalogue (10 commandments) which apply to humanity, and the sub rules which applied in the historical realities of the time, where the survival of the nation depended on its retaining its identity and purity.
If you want to discuss this at length, your welcome to email me,
jdrmot@tpg.com.au

I'll pick up on the 'if you desire her AS WIFE from among the captives'... go into her etc.

Hard as it is for 21st century liberal humanistic man to fathom such things as 'just' or 'fair' or even 'right'. If you try to put yourself into the situation of the day, a captive woman could in fact refuse, if you look at the guidelines in Leviticus on this issue. Further, it was his desire for her as WIFE, not sex toy. They all knew the 'rules of the game' in those days, and faced with the possibilities of 'servitude' over 'wife' I think ultimately wife would be the more attractive option. She lost her former surroundings, be gained a new one. Social welfare if nothing else.
Bear in mind, the 'enemies' were out to SLAUGHTER the Israelites, so don't be too harsh on their approach to treatment of those they allowed to live.

Please see part 2...cont

Let me try to help Mr Waleed Aly. My feelings on Islam are well known, but I really sympathize with the fact that he said ..."Loyalty to one’s own country is constantly questioned. Like a Kafkan defendant, western Muslims are regularly required to prove their own innocence. And very often, any rebuttal is dismissed as lies." This is true and it is a difficult issue, being condemned a priori.

As a Kaffir I do not know Mr Aly's true feelings. God only knows. I do know what Muslim's do where they are a majority, and I do see the strength and radicalism in Muslim communities in the West. It seems when a radical and a moderate meet and talk, the radical wins - he has a better understanding of Islam, I guess.

So, based upon these simple facts, We - the people of the West - have every right to doubt your honesty, sincerity or even your understanding of Islam. We cannot put our women and our in children in jeopardy because it hurts your feelings. Tough! Based upon Islamic websites, there is no doubt that if Muslims ever control a Western country, out goes personal freedom, and in comes sharia law, persecution, hate, anger, killings, and all the other things that bring such joy to the hearts of true Muslims.

When Islamic coutries permit Christian and Buddhist missionaries to walk the streets of Libya and Iran, and when women can drive and vote in Arabia, and when Copts are not killed and kidnapped by Muslims in Eqypt, and when men who commit honor slayings are condemned to 30 years, etc... (you get the idea) THEN and only Then can we talk about your hurt feelings.

Don't hold your breath

Continued Part 2 (Deuc)

ISLAMIC/QURANIC The claim made by Islam is that Mohammed is the LAST of all prophets, and the Quran is the FINAL word to mankind. A 'shall' in Deuteronomy or Numbers, might not have the same universal 21st century weight as a statement from the 'Final Word'. It will very much depend on context.

ASH.

the charity/pope/gold issues. No one will agree with you more than I on those things. I just repeat "Look to Jesus" and compare and contrast.

Please don't lump 'ALL' Christians into the 'selective aid' camp. The mission I have been involved with (and there are MANY others) has people working seflessly with Lepers and the people who no one wants to know in Jordan etc http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s299612.htm See what a secular reporter (George Negus) reports about what the ARABS say about these 'openly Christian' missionaries to them.

I've met this woman, and some of the stories of human love are overwhelming.
In China, the early missionaries buried more of the own children than they could count converts (see "China Inland Mission")
The picture you painted was not the universal one- one has to treat manifestations of Christianity and mission work on a case by case basis.

ASH on the 'majority Islam' point in Egypt 500 yrs after mohammed. The same kind of thing happened in the Muslim Caucasus when the Orthodox 'ruled' Its always a trend for people to gravitate 'convert' to the direction of greatest economic advantage. But God knows our hearts.

I urge you to consider Christ, God the Son/Son of God, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father, ...but by me"

"if you have seen me, you have seen the Father" (John 14)

Persuasion may or may not change a heart, but God Himself can reach into your mind, in unexpected ways -watch out:)

As bishop Polycarp of Smyrna said while being burned at the stake for not denying Christ "Eighty years I have served Him, and he has not forsaken me, nor will I forsake Him now"

The Secret Organization Group of Al-Qa'ida of Jihad Organization in Europe:

"The Secret Organization Group of Al-Qa'idah of Jihad Organization in Europe (Jama'at al-Tanzim al-Sirri, Tanzim Qa'idat al-Jihad fi Urupa) In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate, may peace be upon the cheerful one and the dauntless fighter, Prophet Muhammad, God's peace be upon him.

O nation of Islam and nation of Arabism: Rejoice for it is time to take revenge from the British Zionist Crusader government in retaliation for the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The heroic mujahidin have carried out a blessed raid in London. Britain is now burning with fear, terror and panic in its northern, southern, eastern and western quarters.
We have repeatedly warned the British government and people. We have fulfilled our promise and carried out our blessed military raid in Britain after our mujahidin exerted strenuous efforts over a long period of time to ensure the success of the raid.

We continue to warn the governments of Denmark and Italy and all the Crusader governments that they will be punished in the same way if they do not withdraw their troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. He who warns is excused.

God says: " (O ye who believe!) If ye will aid (the cause of) Allah, He will aid you, and plant your feet firmly."

At: http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/alqaida-jihad-organization/2005/07/07/1120704497811.htm