Islam at one stage in history was a shining light of intellectual endeavor. It was a repository of learning while Europe was in darkness.

Now, unfortunately it has lost its gloss and we are afraid to speak freely about Islam for fear of reprisals. Islam, like Christianity, needs a Reformation by inspired intellectuals and not by bomb-laden kamikaze’s.

Fundamentalism in Islam, as in Christianity sows the seeds of its own destruction. One can't fool all the people all the time...Eventually, it will fall into disrepute like Western Christianity, even if it takes a thousand years and a million kilograms of plastic explosives on human bombs.

Let us eat together on this small sphere and cut out the middle man. After all, there is room enough in this cosmos for a few restricted views of the diety running the show. I am sure God and Allah are both a little bored of the whole silly business...and all these damned martyrs lining up in pieces everyday for a thousand virgins.

We Ancient Greeks could entertain a plethora of gods and goddesses. It was all a bit of fun as long as you tipped your wine goblet at the beginning of a meal (viz. The Odyssey).

Odyseus, are u possibly referring to the Caliphate in Spain ?

They say that was golden age of Islam there. May I humbly request that you look at what foundation that 'enlightened' period was built on ?
It began with the slicing and dicing of some prisoners, and the boiling of their flesh, which was then sent to all corners of the land, to terrify the people.
Here is an ARAB chronicle of the attempted inVASION of France.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/arab-poitiers732.html

The Moslems smote their enemies, and passed the river Garonne, and laid waste the country, and took captives without number. And that army went through all places like a desolating storm. Prosperity made those warriors insatiable. At the passage of the river, Abderrahman overthrew the count, and the count retired into his stronghold, but the Moslems fought against it, and entered it by force, and slew the count; for everything gave way to their scimitars, which were the robbers of lives.

Walid, the interesting thing I observe here, is the unbroken connection right back to MOhammed. The same behavior and attitude to non Muslims.

The connection between Mohammed-> Ali->Kahlid Bin Waleed etc

"What an excellent slave of Allah: Khalid bin Al-Waleed, one of the swords of Allah, unleashed against the unbelievers!"
[Prophet Muhammad, (may Allah bless him and grant him peace), Tirmidhi and Ahmad from Abu Hurayrah, Sahih Al-Jami' Al-Saghir No. 6776]

Khalid is the man who invaded Syria and Roman territory, who slaughtered something like 70,000 soldiers. This man had a DIRECT connection to the founder of Islam, as shown by the quote above.

The Islamic faith expanded on the back of these slaughters. I've already outlined in another thread about the Hadith traditions of Mohammed orchestrating Murders, which are alluded to in the Quran.
Quran 3.140 ...And that Allah may prove those who believe and may strike the disbelievers." <-- this has the hadith background of the murder of the Jewish poet Kaab, ordered by MOhammed

Continued in part 2

Part 2

Now, the CRUCIAL POINT of the above, this is it. The 'DIRECT LINK' back to and including MOhammed, of murder and slaughter. (they are the correct terms)

Contrast this to Christ, "Love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you" Jesus washed the feet of His disciples.

Peter drew his sword to defend Christ, Jesus told him to put it away and healed the man struck. The contrast could not be more stark.
One, a man of peace, the other, a man of war.

The docile, patriotic generous face of Islam which Waleed desires us to accept, is just the face of 'minority' status Islam.

Islam by DEFINITION 'must' seek an Islamic State in the spiritual, political and social sense or it is NOT ISLAM. Please note, statements I am making here are all very soundly backed up by history and Islamic scripture. I am making no value judgements on anyone without direct reference to recorded acts by them.

When some people stole donkeys or camels from mohammed, he cut off their feet and hands, and left them to die a horrible death. when Jesus was struck, he did not retalliate, he gave His life for you, and for me.

Mohammed was surrounded by his 'companions', who were at times men of war, Jesus sent his disciples out to heal the sick and cast out demons.

Mohammed's companions, Ali, Abu Bakar, Umar and Othman were responsible for mass killings, yet they are spoken of as follows:

This blessed community, were the living embodiment of almost all laudable virtues and sought nothing but the good pleasure of God; they absorbed, besides the Qur’an, the Sunna of the Prophet and lived disciplined lives strictly in accordance with the example of the Prophet, and represented and transmitted it without any disloyalty to it.

Abu Bakar, (closest to the Prophet) has this said of him => "He then made a relentless war on the false claimants to prophethood, most of whom submitted and again professed lslam." http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/politics/firstfourcaliphs.html

No compulsion in Islam ?

People can make up their own minds.

Dialectic on the above postings and the article:

Remember the Spanish Inquisition, the behaviour of the Spanish in South America under the aegis of the Church. Read a book of Church history but also, Great Leaders of the Christian Church (ed. John Woodbridge, Moody Press. 1988). Christianity changes its persona.

In the Old Testament, see what God did to whole cities.... women and children too. Even examples of God's wrath in the NT. e.g. Acts...perhaps now in the modern Promised Land...helicopter gunship..on a Palestinian refugee camp..a rocket retaliation on an Israeli school?

Christianity is an expansionist faith and has been riding on the back of Western colonialism for centuries. Old cultures are being clear-felled by the Faith. However it has been the catalyst for enlightened views of the sanctity of life and a noble view of mankind. I don't see the same in Islam or am I wrong?

Any faith, because it has the direct line to God/god/gods has an immediate problem, as part of the raison d'être of the religion is its exclusivity and unique message and view on the state of the cosmos. Some humility is needed but that could then undermine the exclusive message of the Truth.

A tolerant religion (an oxymoron??) is in general unusual...Zen does not really call itself a religion...it is irrelevant whether there is a deity or not. What is the sound of one bag of plastic explosive clapping?

While a non-theistic point of view may have its disadvantages in the Afterlife, it may make one think twice about blowing oneself up and taking out a school as well.

Modern Christian fundamentalist politics is armed with a nuclear, bio- and chemical arsenal. Zion also has the bomb to protect God's chosen people (viz. Old Testament).

However, let us not forget that in my lifetime, Catholics regarded Protestants as the sons of perdition and visa versa. Australian country towns were divided as if by a religious caste system.

May I recommend the book, The Templars, by Piers Paul Read, Phoenix Press 2001 for some complex and enlightening perspectives on Islam and Christianity.

"Nutbags"... I love it. And I notice that one or two of them have immediately appeared, like moths to a candle.

Dear Boaz_David,

Once again you confuse the issues: you can compare text to text or action with action.

The ‘peaceful teachings’ only appeared in your faith since science in the modern world took over (ie separation of the church and state). Until then you were killing other Christians, Jews, muslims (Oops and witches: red hair green eyes? Remember 400,000 of them?)

How is Islam spreading today then? You seem to be sketchy on the detail of how did Christianity spread in N. America, Australia and Africa? Did the locals convert or …hmm…their were ‘modern’ swords involved?

At least in muslim countries that I have seen (ie North African) Christians have been and are practising their faith (please read some of my threads on a ‘Shaykh Dies”)

Even in this century, Nazi Germany and even Christian serbs (please google UN and amnesity archives) 8,000 muslims women and children were killed (PS: also mutilating their bodies cutting off two fingers in everyhand…if you watch the video, blessing were given by an Orthodox priest before the shooting).

My point is:

A) Extremism is everywhere.
B) It leads to violence or at least lack of compassion with fellow human beings and beings in general.

I have one friendly remark, you can probably get better results if you find goodness in your religious beliefs without misleading comments about other religions (I noticed Islam is your favourite ‘other’).

Best regards,

Ash