excellent piece.

Would you like to explain why it was such an 'excellent' piece Kenny? Of course Waleed Aly is going to focus on the few examples of Western Muslim solidarity with their "fellow" countrymen, while ignoring that behind the scenes, western governments are working hard to disrupt ongoing terrorist plots.

In Melbourne and Sydney recently there has been raids on properties of Islamic extremists. France is a country virtually at war with itself, in the fight against muslims with plans to Islamify Europe. But I always ask myself, why use terrorism? Just breed, breed and breed. Have fifty kids and send them to the western countries to look after. They can grow up and have fifty kids (all muslims) and there will be an exponential increase in the power of islam. Woo hoo. Yippeee. The fall of the west, and the rise of islam. That will make our thinking class proud.

i trust we will all file davo's response in our 'nutbags' folder.

Davo's comments are as outlandish as his common language.His grammer is woeful.His reasoning subjective.
The Iraq War beleive it or not is about OIL.The muslim issue is secondary. The coallation force under the auspices of the UN come from a diverse bag of all religions. Fact three,the Wood's Affair whereby the Mufti intervened on behalf of the family was a most courageous selfish act, worthy of a military VC. He volunteered his life for Douglas Wood, even though he never knew him personally - which is more than I can say for the 20 million aussie battlers who profess to be Christians, yet watch that porno TV night-owl, xxx lewd show on Ch 10 with their prepubescent children virtually episode after episode to gain their kicks. Kidding.
The ghastly, in depth interview last Sunday night with Douglas was a sad reflection of a sociopath, suffering chronic PTSD.That Ch 10 prospered on this victim's phlight indicates the exploitation the media would sink, to gain attention and marginally win Sunday night's viewers approval. Ch 9's 60 minutes was a producer's cheapie.
Most media personnel appear to discredit the Muft's efforts, lambasting his credentials, his journey to Bhagdad, his phone messages, his experiences in downtown Felluga. What's with this mob.Is it that he's a Muslim, an Emir but also a dark-skinned dinky-die, contrary to our caucasian's perception of our stereotype, bronze whaler, obese, pot-bellied and a fottie-fan beer-swiller ! Whatever, give the man a go - he's fairdinkum, and in my books a HERO.

Kenny,
I agree it is a great article. The reason I think so is because it reminds us of our common humanity, not only via the examples of western muslims prepared to put their lives on the line for their fellow citizens, but because of the grace, warmth and humour in the tone of the article, itself.
People are people, for God's sake, whatever religion they espouse, whatever the colour of their skin, or gender. Some of them are, like Waleed Ali, intelligent, thoughtful and openminded and some of them are nutjobs.
C'est la vie.

Davo,

If you want to read 'thinking cloud' please follow some of the smart conversations on my thread with fellow Aussies of all religious beliefs. Lucky for Aussie musslims the majority in this country are beautiful people.

Whatever we have for or against Sheikh Tag, at least a 70 y.o. man went to a place that people don't go for lots of money only to attempt to rescue a fellow human being. Yep, there is always an ugly minority alright!

BTW the growth in number of musslims is not related to Arabs having more children. In fact Arab musslims are only 16% of total musslims. Not sure where have you been for the last 200 years.

Regards

Ash

Islam at one stage in history was a shining light of intellectual endeavor. It was a repository of learning while Europe was in darkness.

Now, unfortunately it has lost its gloss and we are afraid to speak freely about Islam for fear of reprisals. Islam, like Christianity, needs a Reformation by inspired intellectuals and not by bomb-laden kamikaze’s.

Fundamentalism in Islam, as in Christianity sows the seeds of its own destruction. One can't fool all the people all the time...Eventually, it will fall into disrepute like Western Christianity, even if it takes a thousand years and a million kilograms of plastic explosives on human bombs.

Let us eat together on this small sphere and cut out the middle man. After all, there is room enough in this cosmos for a few restricted views of the diety running the show. I am sure God and Allah are both a little bored of the whole silly business...and all these damned martyrs lining up in pieces everyday for a thousand virgins.

We Ancient Greeks could entertain a plethora of gods and goddesses. It was all a bit of fun as long as you tipped your wine goblet at the beginning of a meal (viz. The Odyssey).

Odyseus, are u possibly referring to the Caliphate in Spain ?

They say that was golden age of Islam there. May I humbly request that you look at what foundation that 'enlightened' period was built on ?
It began with the slicing and dicing of some prisoners, and the boiling of their flesh, which was then sent to all corners of the land, to terrify the people.
Here is an ARAB chronicle of the attempted inVASION of France.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/arab-poitiers732.html

The Moslems smote their enemies, and passed the river Garonne, and laid waste the country, and took captives without number. And that army went through all places like a desolating storm. Prosperity made those warriors insatiable. At the passage of the river, Abderrahman overthrew the count, and the count retired into his stronghold, but the Moslems fought against it, and entered it by force, and slew the count; for everything gave way to their scimitars, which were the robbers of lives.

Walid, the interesting thing I observe here, is the unbroken connection right back to MOhammed. The same behavior and attitude to non Muslims.

The connection between Mohammed-> Ali->Kahlid Bin Waleed etc

"What an excellent slave of Allah: Khalid bin Al-Waleed, one of the swords of Allah, unleashed against the unbelievers!"
[Prophet Muhammad, (may Allah bless him and grant him peace), Tirmidhi and Ahmad from Abu Hurayrah, Sahih Al-Jami' Al-Saghir No. 6776]

Khalid is the man who invaded Syria and Roman territory, who slaughtered something like 70,000 soldiers. This man had a DIRECT connection to the founder of Islam, as shown by the quote above.

The Islamic faith expanded on the back of these slaughters. I've already outlined in another thread about the Hadith traditions of Mohammed orchestrating Murders, which are alluded to in the Quran.
Quran 3.140 ...And that Allah may prove those who believe and may strike the disbelievers." <-- this has the hadith background of the murder of the Jewish poet Kaab, ordered by MOhammed

Continued in part 2

Part 2

Now, the CRUCIAL POINT of the above, this is it. The 'DIRECT LINK' back to and including MOhammed, of murder and slaughter. (they are the correct terms)

Contrast this to Christ, "Love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you" Jesus washed the feet of His disciples.

Peter drew his sword to defend Christ, Jesus told him to put it away and healed the man struck. The contrast could not be more stark.
One, a man of peace, the other, a man of war.

The docile, patriotic generous face of Islam which Waleed desires us to accept, is just the face of 'minority' status Islam.

Islam by DEFINITION 'must' seek an Islamic State in the spiritual, political and social sense or it is NOT ISLAM. Please note, statements I am making here are all very soundly backed up by history and Islamic scripture. I am making no value judgements on anyone without direct reference to recorded acts by them.

When some people stole donkeys or camels from mohammed, he cut off their feet and hands, and left them to die a horrible death. when Jesus was struck, he did not retalliate, he gave His life for you, and for me.

Mohammed was surrounded by his 'companions', who were at times men of war, Jesus sent his disciples out to heal the sick and cast out demons.

Mohammed's companions, Ali, Abu Bakar, Umar and Othman were responsible for mass killings, yet they are spoken of as follows:

This blessed community, were the living embodiment of almost all laudable virtues and sought nothing but the good pleasure of God; they absorbed, besides the Qur’an, the Sunna of the Prophet and lived disciplined lives strictly in accordance with the example of the Prophet, and represented and transmitted it without any disloyalty to it.

Abu Bakar, (closest to the Prophet) has this said of him => "He then made a relentless war on the false claimants to prophethood, most of whom submitted and again professed lslam." http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/politics/firstfourcaliphs.html

No compulsion in Islam ?

People can make up their own minds.

Dialectic on the above postings and the article:

Remember the Spanish Inquisition, the behaviour of the Spanish in South America under the aegis of the Church. Read a book of Church history but also, Great Leaders of the Christian Church (ed. John Woodbridge, Moody Press. 1988). Christianity changes its persona.

In the Old Testament, see what God did to whole cities.... women and children too. Even examples of God's wrath in the NT. e.g. Acts...perhaps now in the modern Promised Land...helicopter gunship..on a Palestinian refugee camp..a rocket retaliation on an Israeli school?

Christianity is an expansionist faith and has been riding on the back of Western colonialism for centuries. Old cultures are being clear-felled by the Faith. However it has been the catalyst for enlightened views of the sanctity of life and a noble view of mankind. I don't see the same in Islam or am I wrong?

Any faith, because it has the direct line to God/god/gods has an immediate problem, as part of the raison d'être of the religion is its exclusivity and unique message and view on the state of the cosmos. Some humility is needed but that could then undermine the exclusive message of the Truth.

A tolerant religion (an oxymoron??) is in general unusual...Zen does not really call itself a religion...it is irrelevant whether there is a deity or not. What is the sound of one bag of plastic explosive clapping?

While a non-theistic point of view may have its disadvantages in the Afterlife, it may make one think twice about blowing oneself up and taking out a school as well.

Modern Christian fundamentalist politics is armed with a nuclear, bio- and chemical arsenal. Zion also has the bomb to protect God's chosen people (viz. Old Testament).

However, let us not forget that in my lifetime, Catholics regarded Protestants as the sons of perdition and visa versa. Australian country towns were divided as if by a religious caste system.

May I recommend the book, The Templars, by Piers Paul Read, Phoenix Press 2001 for some complex and enlightening perspectives on Islam and Christianity.

"Nutbags"... I love it. And I notice that one or two of them have immediately appeared, like moths to a candle.

Dear Boaz_David,

Once again you confuse the issues: you can compare text to text or action with action.

The ‘peaceful teachings’ only appeared in your faith since science in the modern world took over (ie separation of the church and state). Until then you were killing other Christians, Jews, muslims (Oops and witches: red hair green eyes? Remember 400,000 of them?)

How is Islam spreading today then? You seem to be sketchy on the detail of how did Christianity spread in N. America, Australia and Africa? Did the locals convert or …hmm…their were ‘modern’ swords involved?

At least in muslim countries that I have seen (ie North African) Christians have been and are practising their faith (please read some of my threads on a ‘Shaykh Dies”)

Even in this century, Nazi Germany and even Christian serbs (please google UN and amnesity archives) 8,000 muslims women and children were killed (PS: also mutilating their bodies cutting off two fingers in everyhand…if you watch the video, blessing were given by an Orthodox priest before the shooting).

My point is:

A) Extremism is everywhere.
B) It leads to violence or at least lack of compassion with fellow human beings and beings in general.

I have one friendly remark, you can probably get better results if you find goodness in your religious beliefs without misleading comments about other religions (I noticed Islam is your favourite ‘other’).

Best regards,

Ash

Boaz_David (and Davo?)
you just can't help it, can you? Wherever some comment on Islam appears, you must jump in and criticise or demonize the faith. Nowhere do I see the Islamic or other faiths trashing your beliefs in these posts. In fact, in most cases they preach tolerance and co-existence. Seems you have a little ‘Independence Day’ in you - ‘there can be no co-existence!’, For a proponent of a faith you claim is the source of love, reason and compassion, you have shown very little.

Moreover, don’t try the ‘truth of the way’ with this argument. As has been discussed numerous times in other posts, there is no evidence of your truth compared to anyone else’s. I think it safe to say your own insecurity has driven you to shout loud and strong your position, in order to assure yourself of your rightness.

Why isn’t it possible, as both Fellow_Human and Odysseus imply that you can believe as you will and perhaps convince others through your acts, not your shouting? Actions hold more weight than words and the louder you shout the more the insecurity shows.

And I’d really like you, as a devout Christian, to explain the churches roles (even inaction is a role) in the horrors of WW2 and Bosnia (modern atrocities). If you can do this successfully, I may be persuaded to listen a little longer.

JustDan

Apparently, in the slave owning confederacy of 19th century America, Christian ministers adapted the marriage vows to suit slavery -which they, and the Bible, of course, fully supported. Marriage vows for black slaves stated "Till death or distance do part." Because, of course, their owners could sell husband or wife separately at any time. So much for what God has joined together, eh?
Another example of Christians being no better and no worse than the proponents of any other faith or philosophy. I, like some other posters, am heartily sick of the "my religion's better than yours", position altogether.

I know a family who, due to one partner having a muslim name, (but to make it interesting to people like Boaz, is blue eyed and white skinned) and with a christian blonde wife - is really reluctant to travel overseas to visit family. All due to the 'anti terror' laws and those of boaz's ilk. Both parents are well paid high earning and involved in the community - yet, are afraid to travel due to their names. What has this country become ?

Slavery exists today enaj, it has been renamed 'multiculturalism' (your little sweetheart, I'd imagine?). Big business propelled slavery, just like it is propelling 'multiculturalism'. Makes me want to go and listen to that song 'history repeating'.

Back to the ever exotic islam. I feel bad about being white too (NOT). It appears Islam becomes radicalised when it comes into contact with a secularised western democracy. Life in Hamburg was decisive turning point in the life of Mohammed Atta for example. He became more radicalised there than back home in Egypt. Probably the crude sex and smut that exists in that city did'nt do it for him,(it doesn't do anything for me either). But demographics is set to produce Eurabia, goodbye secular, freeedom loving Europe!

AND, what kind of people are posting comments on these forums? The only person giving a different point of view is BOAZ_david, the rest are just part of some monotonous, self deprecating clique. There is a song called "I hate myself and I want to die" by Nirvana (whose lead singer killed himself), would you all like a copy?

Davo,

Again read my posting to Boaz.
Your story on Mohamed Atta in Germany 'hating society' why didn't he blow up Germans then? Was Timothy Mc Veigh 's name mohamed McVeigh?
Was Martin Bryant called Ali Bryant?

You keep forgetting that BinLaden and Islamist terror have been blowing up muslims since 1920...Bin Laden and Al Zawahiry have arrest and death sentences against them in few muslim countries (including Egypt). Ironically then in 1996, Zawahiry was living between London and Switzerland. So technically some European cities were "harbouring terrorism" even Taliban was received in a formal visit in the US in 1998.

The US position on the terror in the middle east was: as long as they are killing other muslims or Russians...that only changed after Sep 11. The same goes for "stability above democracy" in Middle East (believe it or not there was democracies there in the fifties under the British Empire). Single party ruling (ie Dictators) is a proud produce of the US foreign policy.

Self hating and society hating could happen in religion and non religions alike..It have psychological influences.

AK

Dan,
I am using the same available evidence from the same types of sources for both Islam and Christianity. If you dont work with those sources, you work with nothing other than your imagination. As yet, I have not actually added 'my opinions' to the basic raw data. So if you don't have a better contribution, please refrain from criticism. Its not 'my way or the highway', its 'Christs way, or Islams way'. When I begin to add extraneous material which is NOT recognized by both faiths as legitimate sources, you are more than welcome to rip into my points.

ENAJ "I" am a slave, in one of the Old Testament senses, I am working predominantly for the COMMONWEALTH BANK, my slave master. Most of my year, is devoted to repaying DEBT. The use of scripture to justify 18th century version of slavery was as abominable as it was selective. We both know this, so unless your prepared to have a full and comprehensive 'slavery in the ancient near east' debate, please refrain from time wasting jibes. Unless you recognize God in your life, then whether slavery exists or not is purely a matter for your own concience, we both know that without God there IS no universally applicable foundation for morality in spite of the persistant claims to the contrary from humanisticly (and sentimentally) oriented people.

One thing I do know, the impact of the gospel of Christ on slave owning indegenous people is awesomely wonderful. My wife being a member of a former slave owning family. Now, I goto her area, the former slaves have land, buffaloes, indepenance and freedom, given by the former slave owners. I have a pic of my wifes grandma, with one of her former slaves, arm in arm, just like family. I have little time for the trite and shallow claims like yours, when you havent had any first hand experience most likely.

ASH
see my next post, special for you :)

Ash,
your post to me was valuable ! It showed the very point I was attempting to make. The 'historial practice' of Christianity by very UN-Christian people (Spanish, Crusades (some aspects only) wars between protestants and Catholics in Eurpope, the later Cromwell years,(not the earlier))

Hence my appeal to SCRIPTURE, our source for evaluating all human behavior which is purported to be in the name of Christ. We cannot judge 'the Gospel' by the actions of any Tom Dick or Harry who happens to claim to be Christian, apart from comparing those actions with the foundation they claim to live by. In the case of Islam, we have to do the same. But because of the different historical dimensions of that faith, I extend my evaluationof Islam to the life of the prophet, and his companions, and the full Sunna.

Nevertheless, I've said more than enough about that, I'd rather hold Christ up as our ulimate example, our Savior, Redeemer and Friend.
It is he who renews our minds, transforms our hearts, controls our stubborn wills, and reminds us when we are going too far :), and fills us with the desire to reachout in deep human affection to those who as yet don't know Him.
Forgive me for anything I've said which is from 'me' rather than from Him. (and knowing 'myself', that might be quite a bit)

how can you find someone unacceptable simply based on the argument that their religious beliefs are flawed? ive not met many muslim people who go around spruiking on about their religion, why it is the best, why you should convert, why you're an infidel if you dont etc etc.

these preconceived notions about muslim people are a barrier to accepting them as part of our communities and to making them feel welcome in our communities. as human beings they actively contribute back to society and their own community's, they work, they consume, they pay taxes like most ordinary australians, especially those who've immigrated here.

not all muslim people enact their beliefs in the same way, as with christians or jews or other faiths.

there are undesireables in every society.

B-D just doesn't seem to be able to comprehend the simple point that, to those of us who are not religious, the actions and rantings of fundamentalist and evangelist Christians are every bit as distasteful as those of fundamentalist Muslims.

Read Joshua, Chapter 8. "Ai destroyed" (In the Old Testament for those unfamiliar with the scriptures).

Who said, "Who is not for me is against me"?

There are hundreds of such paradoxes in the Gospel, The Old and New Testament.

Dear Boaz,

I understand the point you have been trying to make all along: Cherri picking throughout history.

You seem to bypass that prophet Mohamed from the beginning of preaching his message and for 13 years had few followers surviving persecution and torture. Escaping from city to city, asking for mercy only to be betrayed over and over again and any of his followers tortured to death (including women).

You are stuck on why God ordered them to defend their existence (please refer to number ratios in your so called “muslims early wars” where ratios was 1:11, 1:9). Even when he went back to Mecca, he released 6000 prisoners ‘”you are free to do as you will” which never happened in wars until last century.

You also ‘overlooked’ those Muslims protected Christian holy places in Palestine and Egypt throughout the centuries from the Bizantine all the way through till the Nazis until last century (check E.Britannica last century the Palestine Brigade WW 2 consisted of Muslims, Christians and Jews).

You overlook all that, yet you are comfy with God ordering David in the bible with pre-emption on Goliath. Or even God ‘killing every first born of the Egyptians’ until the pharaoh lets the jews go.

Nobody can claim to understand God’s wisdom with different prophets and messengers: why Abraham was God’s favourite or why did He talk to Moses or why Solomon was able to talk to animals or rule non-humans. Just stick with your own belief and don’t throw stones on others..

Regards and respect to you and your beliefs,

AK

David
“I am using the same available evidence from the same types of sources for both Islam and Christianity. If you dont work with those sources, you work with nothing other than your imagination”

No, you are interpreting the available evidence to suit your needs. Again, you see your faith and biased books as ‘raw data’. So does Islam! So do the Buddhists! And perhaps even the Earth-Goddess believers! Davis, please, try to look beyond your faith and simply accept that your interpretations/perceptions are your own, that’s all. Not a universal truth – like gravity.

As to “Its not 'my way or the highway', its 'Christs way, or Islams way'”, well that’s your fear. I have never felt that the Islamic faith threatened me or expected me to change my way of thinking – which is more than I can say for Christianity. You just don’t seem to want to let anyone live differently to you without claiming they are wrong. Is it that scary to think that perhaps you are?

As to your claim of a moral high ground over Islam, blaming ‘radical’ Christians for the previous wrong-doings. So, when does the church get it right? Now? With millions dying of AIDS in Africa because the church educates them wrongly? OR when the church ignores the slaughtering in Rwanda? During WW2? Or do we blame inaction on radicals? And this includes the pope!

You interpret for your own ends. I have read enough history to see that there is much to both modes of thinking. You can’t accept that even with faith, there is always room to accept another’s thinking. As has been said in these threads, there aren’t any Muslims going around claiming a superior faith. If someone lives a good life – who’s to really care? Only those who want the comfort of ‘knowing’ they are right.

And you never did answer my question – does Ghandi get saved? He certainly wasn’t a Christian. But who would deny he was a very good man?

Scrabble anyone? It’s much less contentious!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050628/wl_mideast_afp/oicyemen

Perhaps Mr Aly would like explain why it is that the OIC is pushing for a seat on the UN Security Council. See URL reference

Then explain why the source of their beliefs references some 160 verses dealing with jihad/violence to others, including women.

I agree with you that the majority of Muslims in Australia would be and indeed are, very peaceful people and wish no harm to anyone despite what their teachings says. But the trouble is how does one differentiate the jihadists from the more normal ones. Obviously the normal ones are ignoring the violent elements of their teachings.

I to have a Nutbag file..its called TOOI The Oddities Of Islam

garra you said "B-D just doesn't seem to be able to comprehend ..., to those of us who are not religious, the actions and rantings of fundamentalist and evangelist Christians are every bit as distasteful as those of fundamentalist Muslims."

Please give us some evidence of statements by the former group for comparison with the all too publicly available statements in the media from Islamists.

I, like you, follow no religion but I havent heard reports of south american catholics declaring war on the "Islamic conspiracy" nor pacific islander evangelists' battle-cry against Islam. I've see no reports of beheadings by american born-agains, no syrian flag-burning by german lutherans nor caricatures of iran as the "Great Satan" from english anglicans. Yet we are all bombarded daily with this hysterical, offensive claptrap from Islamists everywhere. Even the 'moderate' language from official hardliners is hair-raising for secular people...such as this today.

Islamic revolution 'to cover the globe'
Ramita Navai, Tehran
July 01, 2005
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15783115%255E2703,00.html

IRAN'S ultra-conservative President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has thrown down a challenge to the West by declaring that his election victory marked the dawn of a new Islamic revolution that would spread around the world.

"Thanks to the blood of the martyrs, a new Islamic revolution has arisen and the Islamic revolution of 1384 (the current Iranian year) will, if God wills, cut off the roots of injustice in the world," he said. "The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world."

C'mon garra, they dont want democracy and we dont want Islamists. Where does this leave us but to tone down our rhetoric and improve our argument. Our forebears staged crusades, today Islamists provide the more imperialist, reactionary and violent talk - where is their radical voice of reconciliation? Why are they all about bloody revolution and not about peace? Why don't they provide evidence to back up their arguments instead of ugly hyperbole about others? What are their practical solutions for their societies? They need to move forward and and clean up their own behaviour and language if they wish to taken seriously.

Ro,

I should have been more explicit, I suppose, but the context of my comment was the written statements in these forums by those who identify themselves as Christian and Muslim, respectively - except that the latter group invariably post reasonable, considered comments in polite tones, while the former group includes a small number of individuals who take every opportunity to denigrate those who don't share their extreme beliefs.

I agree that militant Islamists are a real problem where they are in the ascendancy (e.g. in Iran), as are fundamentalist Christians (e.g. in the U.S.A.). However, the very one-sided examples you provide to illustrate Islamist extremism could easily be countered by examples of Christian violence and other idiocies (e.g. bombings perpetrated by anti-abortion extremists, murder of human rights workers organised by so-called Christians, the refusal by the Catholic church to allow the use of condoms etc etc) - but that would mean engaging in the kind of pissing contest that unfortunately characterises these forums all too often.

Extremism by fundamentalist and/or evangelistic Christians will only foment extremism by their Muslim counterparts. I don't think we need either here.

Hi Ro,

It is unfortunate that our media is shallow on the middle east and just happy to publish a ‘spicy headline’. The Iranian revolution (by the Ayatollahs in the 70s through away the shah) supposing to bring social justice, jobs, better wealth distribution, etc..

The failing of the delivering on these very basic needs of any society was the only thing that brought the existing President to power through free elections. Iranians, like others, are tired of Billionaires ayatollah who are just comfy with the status go.

Bottomline, if they had free economy and social justice they wouldn’t have voted for this guy.

Hi Bigmal,

Jihad in Islam is neither holy war nor violence. The first is a western media slogan and the second is some of the negative influence of tribal Arabian culture.
The meanings of Jihad in the verses you refer to are always in the context of: resisting temptations, striving for better self, caring for your parents, sponsoring the widow and the orphan and last, defending your country from the aggressor.

The fundamentalist ideology used the last form (a verse in the Koran that says: no aggression except on tyrants) and reshaped it over the last few decades to allow preemptive strikes against what they would label as a tyrant. (even though ignoring the explicit teachings of no harm to civilians).

The statement used by any radical group is always using this word “fighting tyrants, ending tyranny”. Radical groups who assassinated Egyptian president Sadat in 1980 used the same ideology.
Ironically, this statement is not only in common between radical Islamist only but with any fundamentalist of any religion. How many times did you read ‘fighting tyrants, ending tyranny’ in some US officials statements?

JustDan,

You are a breath of fresh air! God bless the kindness of your heart.

AK

For those trying to bring even handed comment to this thread - JustDan, garra, Fellow_Human (and others), thanks.
There are some great posts here.

Comparing "Apples with apples" is an important concept in debate, keep up the good work.

R0bert

RO ! thanx, your observations about Garra's attacks on me, are most welcome, as are your comments about what he appears to be 'missing' in his 'totally balanced, unbiased' outpourings. I give credit where credit is due, as for Irfan when he noted with sadness the application of the Blashpemy laws in Pakistan against hapless Christians and other minority groups.He spoke truth, and I applauded that.

Garra
I note, about life and people, that if you give them enough rope, they will eventually save us the trouble and hang themselves. You just did that.
I invite you to demonstrate your claim that I have ==>
QUOTE
"take every opportunity to DENIGRATE THOSE don't share their extreme beliefs."
UNQUOTE.

Now, lets examine this statement of yours and look for examples of bias and blinkered outlook. The phrase "denigrate those" is an interesting one. Can you show me one example of my making a PERSONAL attack on either Irfan or Ash ? because 'denigrate those' means just that. You didn't say "critically examined the belief systems of..." you said "Denigrate THOSE".. I.E. you are saying I make personal attacks on individuals with whom I disagree, and that I do this at EVERY OPPORTUNITY.

I do recall mentioning history, scriptures, etc, but I don't recall calling Ash or Irfan 'morons, stupid, idiots, lame brains' and the such like which would constitute evidence of your 'unbiased' claim.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone outside of Christ (including you) is one for whom He died, if you or others choose not to accept Christ, you don't need to worry about me attacking you for that, its your free will choice.

I will nevertheless, attempt to point out the problems with 'other gospels' as I see them. (Continued)

(continued/part2)

OLO is a bit like a 'marketplace' of ideas, which is exactly the type of place Paul where the Apostle proclaimed Christ in his lifetime.

16)While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17) So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18)A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?"

Then they took him (Paul) and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20) You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean." 21)(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)

22) Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23) For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. (END).

We will indeed come across as 'babblers' and 'extremists' even "NUTBAGS" 'and 'anynameuwish2give' but the gospel survived in Pauls day, and will continue to do so now. It will also survive attempts by the ICV to repress and Garra's attempt to ridicule. (see on the road to Damascus Garra :) There will always be 2 reactions to Christ, those who 'stir up the bad fellows from the market place to riot', and those who see Christ as He is.

Robert
even handed ? = "all things are equal, even totally diametrically opposed and contradictory things" Is this your view ?
If you take 'no' position in life, I guess that works.

I am interested to know how the Western Muslim copes with our Family Law Bills and also the legal status of fathers and ex-husbands. Most Western men find these laws unpalatable.

Does'nt Garra routinely denigrate those with different views as xenophobes and bigots in other forums? I won't trawl through them to find out, but from memory I'm pretty sure he does. Like a schoolyard bully, can give but can’t take 'eh.

I would like to know Waleed’s opinion on Australian muslims who sell hate literature against non-muslims in shops in our major capitals. Should they be punished with the same anti-vilification laws you passionately supported when used against christians? If the answer is no, then no wonder muslims are seen as two-faced!

I am wondering if the term "nutbag" if it identifies a religious person or identifies a fair skinned race falls under the term vilification in Victorian 2001 Raicial Religious vilification laws.

It appears likley that the first persons to be jailed in Australia for blasphemy under Victoria's shari'ah law have been convicted at the testimony of Muslim spies deliberately planted in a Christian Meeting. Three of the supposed points of vilification were the reading of the Koran or Hadiths that caused laughter.

The two Pastors born in Pakistan were relating their experience with Islam and their years of study of the sacred Islamic texts. They can no longer talk of their experiences with Islam, and now must publicly proclaim they have vilified Muslims. Their right to free speech has been denied under the recomendation of the ICV.

Muslims in democratic countries must compromise their faith to remain tolerant, otherwise they believe in a totalitarian Muslim State under shari'ah law. The dominant influence of totalitarian thinking people in a society remove the right of free and independent philosophical thought no matter the religion / philosophy.

No, Philo. If you read Waleed Aly's article, you'll see that the label "Nutbags" refers to a folder in his Inbox where he files hate mail. I imagine that if he received posts similar to yours, B-D's or davo's by email, then that is where he would store them if he wished to keep them.

That is a very different thing to conducting a 'seminar' for the purpose of vilifying Muslims.

Well, everyone. I guess B-D and others have convincibly proven beyond reasonable doubt that I and Waleed Aly and "Crazy" John Ilhan and the NAB executive Ahmed Fehour and Hazem Elmasri and English cricketer Nasser Hussein and 1.2 billion others are all part of a huge conspiracy to take over the world and convert everyone by killing them.

I wish I knew the point of having dead converts.

Boaz_David. Even Handed, my context regardless of formal definitions is an attempt to use the same rules/measures to all sides of a discussion.

If those who going under the name of "christian" behave in a manner which could bring your god into disrepute are not really christian then it would be fair to give the muslim faith the same benefit of the doubt. If it is OK to determine that sections of the Bible are not literal when they are inconvenient in that context then selected quotes from the Koran should get the same benefit.

To do otherwise is to use "dishonest scales".

One of the positions I take in life is a passion for fairness. Even if life is not fair I can do my best to be fair in my actions and choices. Being what I call even handed is not about taking "no position in life", it is rather a consequence of taking a position.

Davo, garra and I have been on different sides of exchanges where I would find it easy to share your view. In this instance he appears to be trying to deal with the issues fairly. Whilst I might pay attention to views expressed in other posts for context I think that the forum works a lot better if each post is dealt with mostly on it's own merrits. All of us will have issues which we deal with more strongly than others.

R0bert

Have a read of the posts and consider how they would look to someone who is neither christian or muslim.

Philo,

I thought you are at least reasonable enough to see what happened in Victoria is ‘actual vilification’. If I see a muslim Imam who pick on Lot story in the bible and use it in a mosque to claim that Christianity preaches incest relations I would report him as vilifying others’ faith. That is exactly what these priests did (by the way, I read the whole 110 pages pdf file, it is all full of ignorance and intentional misleading to poor followers of the Christian faith)…but hey…it is OK for them to lie I guess. New teaching: hate and offend others in the morning and say God is love at night. They just need to practice what they preach.

Have a great life,
www.reachinghuman.blogspot.com

Hey Irfan,

If Islam is so 'peaceful' then name twenty Islamic countries that are not plagued with conflict and respect human rights. If you can't then why should'nt I cautious about Islam?

Rob,
I don't know of any of the bible which is 'inconvenient'. I know a lot which is misconstrued and misinterpreted, e.g "Jesus said "Do you think I came to bring peace ? no, I came to turn brother against brother, father against son, etc etc" Or.. "If you eye causes you to sin, GOUGE it out" etc..... "If your hand causes you to sin CUT IT OFF" etc.. it goes on. Failure to understand culture and history could lead one to very WRONG conclusions about what Jesus was saying/meaning.

IRFAN

No, I don't consider you as part of a world wide 'concious' conspiracy any more than you would regard me as such. But we are both members of faiths which have foundations and goals. Based on the 'fundamentals' of those faiths, we have certain objectives/hopes/aspirations. Yours, whether you admit it or not would be to see Australia as an Islamic republic, through conversion of course :) Mine is to see Christ glorified in every life, by conversion ONLY. Perhaps you are a 'cultural' Muslim who identifies with his faith because he was born with it, I could be wrong :) but I challenge you to consider what would happen to you among your ethnic/religious community if you ever announced "Hi folks, I've become a Christian"

This is why I have been harping on about the 'essential basic foundation'of the 2 faiths. Ash has 'got it' from day one I think, because now he is beginning to defend 'Islam'.

Islam is not 'just' about people having faith. The new world MOhammed attempted to create was a TOTAL package, including the Divine RULE of government and every social more including how to tie your SANDALS.

Jesus did not need to 'defend' himself from opposition, His word was enough, He came to die... for us, that we might live, eternally.
He said 'You must be born again'..... and unless we are, we will not see God.

GARRA,
you have yet to answer my question raised in the last post, about finding evidence of personal attacks on others in my posts.

ASH (fellow human)

with regard to your statement of "actual vilification". I suggest you re-think that, and do 2 things.

1/ Read the ACTUAL TRANSCRIPT of the proceedings (Catch the fire) and find the contribution of a poster here who showed CLEARLY by comparing the transcript with the Judges quoting of it that he is IN ERROR. The difference in meaning is vilification/non vilification so it is quite important legally.

2/ Read Mark Durrie's witness statement and see the research he has done on Islamic education in Victoria. You might be surprised (unless you know all this and have been keeping it quiet :)

If you wonder why we are so passionate about these things, read "Surah 9:29

Fight against those who do not believe in Allah nor in the Last Day, and do not make forbidden what Allah and His Messenger have made forbidden, and do not practice the religion of truth, of those who have been given the Book [i.e. Jews and Christians], until they pay the jizya [head tax] readily and are HUMBLED.

(emphasis mine)
The meaning of 'humbled' in Pakistan means Christians get the jobs of street sweepers etc. Ash, I accept what you said about Egypt, its not the same as Pakistan, but the Quran is the same.

How does Islam view Christians ? read below.

[9:30] The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD," while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.

WHAT.... is the penalty for 'blasphemy' (calling Christ 'Son of God') in Pakistan ? why its the DEATH penalty !
WHERE.... did they obtain the justification for this ? The Quran

1. How does Islam view other religions
It is regulated (2:62, 29:46) “those who have believed-and the Jews, the Christians, the Sabaeans, those who believe in God, the Last Day (Of Judgment) and do good works-stand to be rewarded by God. NO fear or grief shall befall them.” This is the rule where Islam interacted with other religions throughout history until today (with the exception of Wahabbies in Saudi). In fact, Christians in Egypt have their own civil court as in their religious belief divorce is not allowed like for us muslims.

2. Islamic religion, encompassing both spiritual and material regulated the state revenue (tax system) on two fronts: the alms (Zakat) paid by muslims and the Gizyah (tax on non muslims) for Christians and Jews for their teachings forbid them from military service which was compulsory for muslims.

3. Surah 9 is the part that regulates punishment of tax evasion if you like. The punishment muslims who don’t pay zakat is equivalent to punishment of non muslims who do not pay Gizyah.(Some early Islamic philosophers call it the ‘punishment law’ since it is the only surah of the 114 that does not start with ‘in the name of God most gracious and most merciful’)
4. Pakistan and blasphemy rules: I can’t help you on this one. As muslims we are clear cut on monotheism and the fact that “God is One” but we cannot judge Christians or people of other faith. In my opinion and I hope I am right, this is an issue of extremism from some muslims as much as from some Christians who see muslims as infidels because we love Jesus but we don’t worship him.

I hope things are clearer..a little..maybe?..
God bless your friends at the CTF and help them see us as fellow humans..:)

Regards…
Ash (The other:)&#61514;)

The fact is Most Muslims and Christians can coexist peacfully in strong Western countries, or countries that function on democratic Governments like Indonesia. Unfortunately when Sunni extremists move among the Muslim communities they incite civillian violence against those of different faith. Example: I have friends in Indonesia who experienced this in Ambon when machete armed Muslim bands moved into the city they burned the homes of Christians and sympathisers, murdered about 10,000 Christian men and boys, stole and raped their wives as sex slaves. I've listened to the heart wrenching stories of young girls who escaped for their lives out of the area. The young Muslim girls close friends of Christian girls taught to turn against them in the agenda of purifying the area of unbelievers. Every week in Indonesia Churches are burned and those who do not accept the Koran are murdered; all under official clerical approval at the planning and implementation. Christian may be sporadically retaliating but this is not organised by the Ministers and Priests of the Churches, but from personal anger.

The problem arises when Muslim Blasphemy Law designed to controll thought and expression is enforced upon a free and democratic population. Islam is a religion based upon absolute controll of its adherents by laws and rulings administered by Imams on trivial behaviours. eg. What should I do if I enter a haidresser that plays western music?

Boaz, I'm not disputing the legitimacy of the need to "understand culture and history" when reading ancient texts. It does make the idea of absolute authority kind of irrelevant when you do so though. Who gets to decide which bits are the absolute commands of god and which bits were cultural allowances? One of my points was that the same space does not seem to be given to moderate muslims by some christians. Quoting selected bits of their writings is about as legitimate as quoting selected bits of the bible.

Have you considered my point about the worst of christians vs the worst followers of other belief structures? If it is legitimate to say that they are not really christian then surely it is not legitimate to point to the extremists in Islam as representative of that faith.

In regard to you challenge to garra. You might consider the comment in one of your posts that appears to suggest that you think I stand for nothing. If that's not what you meant please excuse my misunderstanding. I'm not real bothered by the comment but it certainly appeared to be an attempt to be nasty. I do take quite strong stands on issues of personal integrity - how I live my life matters to me. The fact that we stand for different things (sometimes) does not mean I stand for nothing, just that we hold different values.

R0bert

A quick follow-on from R0bert (my apologies R0bert if you disagree!)…

Selective highlighting I think is the problem here. We have seen it claimed in this thread reference to ‘bad’ Muslim behaviour belonging to the religion while ‘bad’ Christian behaviour lay at the feet of individuals. Perhaps we can apply this in reverse.

Statements that current Muslim governments are not democratic or tolerant can easily compare to similar governments of Christian bent in history. The fact that one exists now while the other comes from the past does not negate the significance of the point. History covers quite a long period. Both are guilty of ‘bad’ behaviour and intolerance.

The rise and fall of government and religion happen. Individuals affect each. It is more the point that both hold similar values on life, humanism and moral standing. The fact that extremism has taken hold at various points in history is sad but a fact. What is of relevance is how society deals with the problem and finds a solution, satisfactory to all.

I do not think that any amount of “I’m right and you’re wrong” or “Look at the evil you perpetrate, we aren't like that!” can justify either position (broad statements to make a point, OK? Not specifically correct in content!).

Moderate the extremism and educate all to the benefits of your faith. Then individuals can make their own informed choice – which is what faith is all about.

Peace and tolerance, as always.

JustDan, very nicely written thanks.

Personally I'm not to keen on encouraging the "educate all to the benefits of your faith" bit. If I see benefits being lived out I will investigate. That is when people holding to a particular faith live lives that are clearly better (whatever that means) than the best of the lives of those holding to other beliefs.

If they want to educate me then they should do so by living their lives in admirable ways rather than doorknocking or sponsoring events.

R0bert

Thanks R0bert.

That is what I meant. Actions speak louder than words and hypocrites damn themselves. Like feeding a toddler, the more you force-feed them, the bigger the mess! People will ‘eat’ of the food of religion, when and if they want to.

Also, the more one proclaims ones belief and righteousness, the more I think one is unsure of their position. How’s that old adage? “Me thinks thou doth protests to much”...

Not naming any names of course, but this is a posting about nutbags, after all. It appears to be a general rule that such people can be identified through their excessive and inappropriate (even random) use of upper CASE. And their propensity to QUOTE THE Bible as "evidence" FOR whatever they ARE asserting. I wonder who I am REMINDED of?

Robert
a quick reply to your feeling of "I denigrated" you. Actually, I was attempting to make the point that if you believe in something, you will be passionate about it. I did'nt mean to hurt your feelings by suggesting you stand for 'nothing' in the wider sense, I was referring to the Islam/Christianity issue. You clearly don't have any strong feelings other than to be nice to all :) which, while a commendable attitude, does not make a lot of progress in the debate between the 2 faiths positions. Hope you don't take such comments in any personal or hurtful way ok :)

Ash

Yes, other faiths are regulated, its worthwhile looking at how Christianity is 'regulated' in Afghanistan. It is basically regulated in such a way that it is clearly intended to die out with the current generation of people and structures. Never mind, God is greater than such things. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church :)

JustDan

I've tried to avoid a "we are right you are wrong" slant in my posts, and have attempted to take a "This is what is at the heart of yours, and this is at the heart of ours" approach. I have been selective, but I've selected legitimate aspects. I have made a contention, then illustrated that from their foundations. I have contrasted this with the foundations of our faith. One can be as selective as one likes, and you will not find the same things about Christ and the Apostles as you will about Mohammed and his companions. It not a biased approach its very factual.

Waleed calls a nutbag someone who is prepared to state such things publically. He will call it 'vilification'.

I can feel Anomie's eyes drilling the back of my head so NO CAPITALS :)

Thanks, BD. I appreciate it.

I recently heard a comment on radio about a comparison between the rhetoric of G.W.Bush the Current US president with Roosevelt the President during another crisis, the Great Depression. The comparison went on to note the statement of Roosevelt "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" and the repetitive arousals of fears in the US community by the current President. When our elected political leader follows such a lead by G.W.Bush, is it any wonder that there are elements of our community who trust this leadership with a belief that bad legislation which reduces freedom and democracy is made law in the name of the greater good. There seems little chance in the near term at least of removing a religious undertone from these legislative responses by our elected representatives. But let's not give up. We still have free speech, except if ASIO believes you shouldn't make any comment about something they may have done in the name of national security.

Boaz, - David you missed the point again. It's not about being "nice" to everybody. Being nice is often very different to being fair.

I'll be nice where I can be and still play a valid role in the discussions, I'll generally try and be polite in my posts and where practical put them in as friendly a manner as I can. I try pretty hard to avoid the "I can't beat your logic so I'll insult you instead" approach which so often hampers debate.

The point I have raised is about fairness. I'm not OK with one side of a debate working with different rules than they allow the other side. I don't know how else to put this, maybe someone can put it more clearly. There does not seem to be a lot of point repeating the examples already given.

As already noted I was not to upset by your comment about standing for nothing, raised as an example only.

In regard to the current debate, it is clear that the christian political movement is a threat to my freedoms if given the chance. Clearly their interests (and your own) go a long way beyond the small list you published some months ago - http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3040#3280 Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:03:10 PM

What I don't know is what kind of threat western muslims are to my freedom if given the opportunity. I do know I would not like to live in a muslim controlled country. I know what parts of the christain church would have me believe about muslims but competitors are not always the best source of information.

R0bert

ROBERT

This will be a 2 part reply because of the length of your quote I need to properly examine what you say.

You said:

Boaz, I'm not disputing the legitimacy of the need to "understand culture and history" when reading ancient texts. It does make the idea of absolute authority kind of irrelevant when you do so though. Who gets to decide which bits are the absolute commands of god and which bits were cultural allowances? One of my points was that the same space does not seem to be given to moderate muslims by some christians. Quoting selected bits of their writings is about as legitimate as quoting selected bits of the bible

1/ Absolute Authority.
The authority of the Bible is not as appears to be in your mind Rob. You seem to suggest that you are expecting 100% unambiguous, literal statements about every area of life. In terms of culture and language this is not possible for any faith. Time changes meanings.
The authority to which we appeal, is that God in his providential wisdom has communicated His will and person to us in Christ. It is clearly a step of faith.
But that aside, 'which bits' have authority etc, is not a difficult matter. Let just one example suffice. Paul said "On this matter I have no command of God, but I have my opinion ...in Christ"
This was a clear division between divine revelation and personal opinion. On other matters we have to refer to context, history, culture and use of language to 'hone' the meanings of parables and sayings. The 'cut off the offending hand' and 'gouging out the offending eye' are examples where this must be employed.(i.e. "How did the people of JESUS day understand such sayings")

2/ Selective use and Moderate Muslims.
Rob, there is legitimate 'selectiveness' and illegitemate. If I find "Judas went and hung himself" and join this with "Do thou likewise" and "What you do, do with all your heart" and then turn this into some suicidal Jonestown cult, clearly I have totally missed the mark, right ?

BD, 1 of 2

- First I don’t think Islam needs my defence, it is a great religion and have much conviction as you have to yours. I am just clarifying things which are put intentionally or in error out of context to mislead people about my faith and hence was my contribution.
- The myth of Islamic conversion:Arab Christians and north African Christians have been living among muslims since Islam appeared. Dr Milad Hanna, an Egyptian Christian, have actually documented that muslims became the majority in Egypt after 500 years since it came in the 7th century.
- Islam and Christianity are fundamentally different on conversion. Muslims are not required because a) it is a simple religion: God is one, created everything; you can only save your self through good deeds and repent when you commit a sin. Believe in one God and all his messengers, pray 5 times a day, pay the alms, fast in Ramadan and pilgrim once in your life time. In Christianity is different, you have a collective responsibility to “save” others and hence you have 21 million priests and missionaries with huge budgets for this purpose only. We don’t. Muslim imams are volunteers and have no holiness whatsoever.
- This ‘pressure’ upon you drive some of your missionaries to ‘twist facts’ about Islamic faith specifically because unlike other religions, Islam is the only modern day religion that; provides a credible, honourable story of Jesus Christ. And again I use the CTF example: the behaviour and text used (and I read the transcript) was at best unethical.
- Muslims agenda myth: Islam is religion that mixes spiritual and life style similar to Judaism for example. The Koran to us is the word of God and defines how to honor your parents, interact with your family, respect and honour your neighbour and always do good deeds even by smiling to a blind man. There can be no agenda for us because there is no specific authority, pope, budget, money, hierarchy, etc.. There are no transactions of any sort in our faith and there cannot be…simple?

BD 2/2

1/2 covered Islam in 350 words. Now muslims in Australia:

What do muslims and non-muslims have in common:
- They obey the law, work hard, watch the footy/ cricket, enjoy an outdoors barbecue on a sunny day, enjoy family and friends outing, etc..

What is different about muslims 'life style'?
- Muslims don't gamble, don't drink and eat all food except for pig meat and blood. They don't deal in interest and hence borrow money from venture capital type of finance organisation known as Islamic finance.
- Muslims will enjoy a social evening, chess playing, nice discussion or outdoors beach or park lunch with family and friends. They believe in the institution of marriage instead of dating/ de facto.
- Religious belief: they believe in one God, in his messengers Moses, Jesus and his virgin birth and Mohamed as his prophets.

Now, BD what is so 'frightening' about us? how does 'our life style' become so threatening?
Please explain! (Trademark by Pauline Hansen:):)

No offence intended I just enjoy an early morning smile.

AK

B-D.
You’ve just pointed out the flaw in your own argument. On many occasions you and others have quoted the Koran giving examples of how it is harsh and intolerant (giving the words a literal meaning). Then you go on to say:

“The authority of the Bible is not as appears to be in your mind Rob. You seem to suggest that you are expecting 100% unambiguous, literal statements about every area of life. In terms of culture and language this is not possible for any faith. Time changes meanings. The authority to which we appeal, is that God in his providential wisdom has communicated His will and person to us in Christ. It is clearly a step of faith.”

So, why can’t the same be said for the Koran as well? Wouldn’t that negate the arguments/examples given by you and others previously? Seems to me that personal interpretation is the key.

There is no justification for an intolerant stance – whether a follower, Imam, Cardinal or the Pope. Believe your faith, pass on your knowledge and simply accept that others may hold a different faith to your own. How is that hard or at odds with your own personal belief?

A question for you Fellow_Human...
Could you accept that a Christian believes in their faith, doesn’t agree with yours and still live as a neighbour, friend and co-worker? Could you do so, without and subtle or overt effort to convert? And the tricky one. If one of your children said they no longer believed and left your faith, what would be your reaction? Honestly?

I am a curious kind of guy...

How do Western Muslims interpret these verses?
Sura 2:223: ‘Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will…’
Sura 5:38: As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah.
Sura 4:15. As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way.
Sura 8:65. O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a folk without intelligence.
Sura 3:157. And what though ye be slain in Allah’s way or die therein? Surely pardon from Allah and mercy are better than all that they amass.
Sura 9:5. Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Sura 8:67. It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land.
Sura 4:34. Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
Sura 8:12-13. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

Looks like a little religious war going on here. However I do note that the most reasonable and polite posts are placed by muslims and the most vitriolic by christians. I assume Em that you're christian.

Either way this entire thread makes a good argument for atheism.

That said, the christians here, have clearly demonstrated the bogus claims made about western muslims.

Peace, brothers & sisters. Agree to disagree - stop this vitriol.

Reassure me, Em. "I come not in peace but with a sword", and that stuff that happened about the golden calf. That was in the Koran, wasn't it? And the plagues of Egypt? No? Silly me. Next time, you might remember that selective quotation can go more than one way. Violent is as violent does in monotheist holy books. The creation myths of a tribe of Bronze Age shepherds, transcribed by world-weary Greeks, and translated by world-weary Romans (to quote Gore Vidal) are no exception.

Trinity,

Yes there is a religious war but only in BD and EM minds. Whatever it takes to justify hate I guess. The funny thing is they spend the whole day ridiculing others beliefs and faiths then claim they believe God is Love. Nothing short of self hyprocicy I guess.

Anyway,

Em,

Get a translation of the meanings of the Koran “Picktall” translation and read each verse, then the previous and the one that follows for each ($9.95 in Dymmocks). Or get the Koran for dummies for $24.95. Or even better, don’t leave the couch and enjoy Big Brother 2040.

JustDan,

Thank you for your kind question.
I grew up in Egypt in the DeLaSalle College which is a French Catholic school. My father was a religious muslim and his doctor, pharmacist and lawyer were all orthodox Christians. My best friends until today are orthodox Christians, few catholics and one atheist who now live in London. My current business contacts and friends include 2 Jewish one Russian and one South African.

Kids: I have a 7y.o. who I am teaching Islam and also teaching her the difference between all religions. I do have 2 copies of the Arabic bible at home: the usual bible and the GOB.

Answering your questions:
- The ‘converting people concept’ doesn’t exist in Islam.
- In my circle, usually Catholics are the ones who are trying to convert everyone else. I never had this problem with Orthodox Christian friends or Jewish friends for example.
- You can only teach your kids about your faith and for them to be good. What happens when they grow up you will never know but you love them and support them no matter what.

Best regards,
AK

Hahah! Yes, my post was rather vitriolic, considering the only words that were mine were 'how do western muslims interpret these verses'- wow- hold back that hate! It also amuses me that Trinity assumes that I'm a Christian... just because I can quote the Qur'an accurately.

I'm quite happy to respond to verses in the Bible- and answer how Western Christians interpret them. So, anomie, I don't think that asking a Muslim to do the same is in any way hypocritical. However, considering that this is actually a forum topic about Western Muslims, I thought it would be a great chance to get some answers from people who know. But sure,let's have an open debate- why don't you go and actually find the references for the verses and events you quoted, so that I know that you have at least a little credibility. Maybe even start your own forum topic.

Apart from that... still waiting for the answers. Who's brave enough?

Got 'Em, Em. But dont ask for too much, I am still waiting for a list of peaceful Islamic countries that respect human rights. I can only think of a dubious two, Turkey and Malaysia.

'Fellow Human'

Sorry, but did you by any chance mean "Pickthall's" translation?
That was a pretty weak answer to Em. Surely you can do better than that. After seeing her post I was excited that maybe we would see some real debate,... afraid not. Could you see the dreaded 'God Botherer' getting away with that sort of response? Hmmm.

It also amuses me that a simple debate can be labelled 'hate' so quickly. Great way to attempt to shut down reasonable discussion... oh, but was that what you were wanting? silly me.

Not real good in the sarcasm department, then, Em? And isn't it a little presumptuous to be claiming to speak for western christians en bloc? For what variant can you speak? The unmediated word of god brigade, armed with a bible even they can read? Catholics - the mediated word of god and milennia of exegesis tendency? Or simply for yourself? Too lazy to look up the references for you, but will a PhD thesis dealing with scholastic theology establish that I might have some knowledge of matters religious?

Ash.... my goodness, you reallllly need a big shake.

You said 2 things which are VERY offensive and false.

1/ You want to justify your HATE.

Do you always equate 'reasoned dissagreement with' to = hate ?
To do so is not rational I'm afraid

2/ You spend all day 'RIDICULING' others beliefs.

This is ridicule "Thats stupid, your an imbicile for believing such tripe, its fairstories, bs etc" so, I presume you can SHOW me any such 'ridicule' in my posts ?

Now. fair is fair. I have not even on one occasion 'ridiculed' (show me ONE example) neither have I 'hated' unless you have no room in your heart for empassioned debate, all Em did is quote the Quran, is that 'hate' ? is that 'villification' ? err.. she didn't even add any comment. I surely hope Ash that you never teach your daughter that those who disagree with her 'hate' her.

JustDan.
I feel like inviting you for a coffee to take up the issues. *sigh*... The same principles of interpretation can be applied to the Quran and the Bible. Examples I've given of Paul "This is my OPINION" can only be interpreted one way "His Opinion" its not rocket science. The Quran "The believers SHALL.... can only be interpreted ONE way "They SHALL.... Sura 23:5-6 "be humble, only have sex with their wives and slave girls" etc .. Simple. Just like reading a book. Context, Context Context.

TAMMI.... thank you, a rational voice at last. (re me anyway)

ANOMIE, should we 'be afraid' ? :) No apols for the caps this time mate. sorry. If you are as educated as you claim, I hope you see the same thing Tammi does.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Exodus 21:2-4 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Deuteronomy 21:10-13 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, ... and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.

1Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Ash, I have not had a chance to respond to your earlier posting which asked a question "What is so frightening about us"

Well, fair question. Ok, depends on who you are I suppose. But read Waleed Ali's article about 'Islamic finance' and how our laws about Stamp Duty were changed to accomodate the 'no interest' aspect of Islam and so they can avoid paying 2 lots of Stamp Duty for 2 transfers of Title. Why try to change our laws ? why not just adjust to 'our law' as you find it. The ONLY reason the lobbyists sought to change it, is because it is in conflict with the "Law of Allah" as you see it. No pig farms next ?

Look at how the wishes of the Baulkam Hills community were bulldozed into the ground by appeal to a labor government in regard to the "Islamic Centre"

Look at how exemptions to burial laws have been made in Victoria 'specially' for Muslims.

Look at how one of our favorite foods (ham Sandwiches) was denied to 78% of the ratepayers of Hume Shire by suggestions of the Muslim Mayor (and a decision by Darryl Treloare the CEO)

Look at how branch stacking occurred in a labor seat in NSW by Muslims to influence the government policy on Israel through their candidate.

But the 'scary part is in the Islamic education syllabus, where it is spelt out that this is the 'medina' (weak and minority) phase of Islam in Australia, as opposed to the 'Meccan', where strength power grew.

The collusion between ICV and EOC via May Helou, the deliberate 'spying' on Christians and the court case, is a worry. (but the best medicine the 'church' has had for ages :)

So, its not your 'lifestyle' which is scary Ash, it is the political impact of people far in excess of their proportion of the population.
Its the discrimination perpetrated on the majority, by those with loud voices and small numbers.

and if you say I 'hate' you for outlining all these historical facts I'll not be a happy chappy

BD,

I think you are confusing accommodating ‘others’ and others ‘taking over’ and some people actions.

- First we (muslims) are not allowed to eat pig meat. I have never seen a reasonable muslim who will attempt to ban it for others. Muslims countries (I can at least count 9 that I am sure of) having nothing to do with pig or ham farmed/ served by non muslims.
- Same goes for us not dealing in interest: most muslims countries have both financial products. If you like at the ‘equity mate’ by some banks in Australia. That is a share risk share the reward. It is half way there!
- There are no phases in Islamic religion itself. There may be individuals trying to achieve some political gains maybe, but that is the same as any other religion/ non religion or even sexual preference based groups.
- Religious spying is neither Islamic nor Christian (explain how does when a muslim cleric says anything in a mosque it is all over the news and TV next day as well). Both are unethical practices.
- One topic I disagree with however is the Baulkham Hills incident: the question is why would you want to prevent a prayer place for a specific religion? To me it was a wake up call on the level of ignorance and lack of leadership both state and church.
- “sugar quoting” there is nothing in my faith to sugar quote: Islam for us provide a mix of religious belief, good human values and a social framework of how to deal and interact with others. These values are fixed and cannot be sugar quoted as no one has the right to tamper with or contradict the Koranic references. Your religious belief is fundamentally different because priest and religious people can shape the faith and invent / remove biblical terms: developing the Trinity, guide Christians which bible to read and not read, sold forgiveness deeds in medieval Europe, justified Jews blood during the Nazis period and finally allowing gay priests and marriages.
AK

Well B-D,
I think Deuc has assisted me… can you reconcile those quotes with your answer? I count at least 10 ‘shalls’. Feel free to discard these to old ideas, 'imagery', whatever you’d like to call it but the comparison is the same. I honestly do look forward to an explanation. I know the Qu’ran contains some feisty stuff but so does the Bible.

Now I know you mean well but it's folly really to argue the indefensible. I just don’t understand why any reasoning person, of any religious bent, cannot accept that faith is personal and that it is always a matter of choice. Feel free to discuss the choice but never (and I think I am safe here) state that another choice is wrong – because there is absolutely no evidence for this statement. Like you, I am a Christian – but I accept that others may believe differently. It doesn’t lessen my faith or strength of faith.

And just one minor point – you outlined your concern regarding changes to laws in favour of Muslims, stating that “why not just adjust to 'our law' as you find it” – well, cannot this also be argued of Christians going to Islamic countries? Sure they may be tougher or more totalitarian in nature but then, that’s the law as you found it. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

I do agree that perceptions of extreme Islam are concerning. However I think that this extremism is a by-product of the excesses and abuses heaped upon most of the Islamic countries by ‘Christian’ run ‘democratic’ nations such as the US. Poverty disenfranchises the people, who are easily led to an alternative that gives them some power. If Christianity could offer something to them, I’m sure they would have a look. However I think that Christianity has been tainted for a large number of the poor, specifically due to the influence of the western ‘democracies’. And the Christian extremism of the past has enough bodies to count that they should not be throwing stones at other faiths.

Cont...

Please, I don’t want anyone misinterpreting this last paragraph as a slight at Muslim nations or people. It should be seen as more damning of the western capitalist system, which has been highjacked by business and contains none of the moral or ethical traits of any Christian or other religious thought. ‘The Corporation’ is a good book on this topic (and being discusses in other threads on this site).

Fellow_Human,
Cont...

Thanks for the response. I would agree that the only faith I find doing any converting are Christian. I wonder why? And it is good that your children are being educated in a balanced way. Whether or not they choose your own faith or another is not the issue – whether they are good, moral and ethical people is all that matters, isn’t it.

And I STILL don’t have an answer from the Christians here – does Ghandi get saved, though he is not a Christian? And what is your take Fellow_Human – from an Islamic view?

Fellow Human: I found it interesting that you chose not to respond directly to my question, but instead chose number 38 of Schopenhauer's ‘38 Ways to Win an Argument’:
“Become personal, insulting and rude as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand. In becoming personal you leave the subject altogether, and turn your attack on the person by remarks of an offensive and spiteful character. This is a very popular technique, because it takes so little skill to put it into effect.” I’ll give you another chance.

Anomie: The great thing about this forum is that one is judged merely on the opinions they post, not on their qualifications. Since there is no way of verifying your honesty, we can only judge by the quality of your expressed statements.

As for you Deuc, thanks for your post. I’ll make this brief though, predominantly because I don’t want to hijack the forum topic on Western Muslims and bring it back to the endless discussion of Christianity. I’m sure that you are already aware, Deuc, that all but one of your verses are from the Old Testament, or more specifically, the Jewish Torah. Obviously these, once placed in context, are cultural and time specific references for the Jewish society. Can you point out for me where the modern Church practises any of these? As for the Titus reference, is this really that extreme? To be discreet, chaste, a keeper at home, good, and obedient to one’s own husband…I could think of worse things! Obviously the Bible speaks about the husband’s role in other areas (Ephesians 5:28 ‘So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies’.) If your interest is sincere, you will find a full discussion of the Titus verse, analysed directly from the Greek, at http://www.preceptaustin.org/titus_25.htm.

Ash says: “No one has the right to tamper with or contradict the Koranic references”…. very interesting. Again, how do you interpret the above Qur’anic verses in light of that statement?

Em,

First I do apologise for offending you. I have been coping with an amazing amount of ‘brotherly love’.
Second, you just came out of nowhere with half truth microwavable comments. You could have looked at each verse in the context and proper meanings interpretation. But don’t come in throwing dirt and expect red carpet. I am sure you have seen Women (4:1-198) in the Koran which talks about women/ wife right. You have also referred to narrated hadith: ‘best of you is best to his family’ and ‘no greater good deed than a man feeding his wife with his hand’.

BD,

Following on your logic comparing extreme to extreme, lets us explore the inquisitions (ie when Muslims and Christians were spreading their messages around the world). Muslims inquisitors offered conquered cultures 2 options if you they are not fighting: convert to Islam, or maintain your faith Christian/ Jewish and pay the Gizyah/ defence tax.
What was the option for Christian inquisitors: ulus in Africa, Red Indians, Aborigines, and Arabs in Spain? No choices. No one was spared even women and children.

You would ask which is more tolerant. For muslims even though fanaticism exists always, there are rights for others defined in the core that no man can touch. In your scenario it is the pope of the day and everyone follows.

BD, I have no doubt that you are sincere about your faith/ charity/ humanity. What I ask you is to look within. Begin with yourself:
- The churches collect all the money in the world from the faithful for charity, why the pope is wondering around in ‘everything made of Gold’ while most Latin American Catholics have been starving for decades?
- What is with the selective charity in Africa? Will save who are likely to convert and leave others.
- Why are you comfy with the charity priorities: ie the enthusiasm to help the Darfur brothers because they are sitting on a large natural gas reserves?
For us, we have our own crap to deal with, fanaticism, dictators, ..name it!

Peace my friends

"Obviously these, once placed in context, are cultural and time specific references for the Jewish society."
And Muslims could reply likewise. So those passages were relevant to the particular circumstances of the Hebrews in those times, but no longer are? Ie. there was some particular culturally specific reason then as to why male Hebrew slaves had to be set free but not the slave's wife or children. Circumstances justifying the slaughter of babies, stoning people for working on the sabbath, taking/raping women from groups they conquered, burning whores alive etc., killing witches, that no longer exist? Again, Muslims could make similar claims about certain suras; the environment upon which Islam was founded was closer to that of Moses than that of Jesus. It was an improvement on the culture that previously existed and was arguably more tolerant at the time than Xianity was.

"Can you point out for me where the modern Church practises any of these?"
Well I do believe a nun was crucified the other week in order to free her from demons, but why does it matter what is practiced? Either the rules are correct or they are not, whether or not the rules are practiced doesn't affect their validity. If it is OK in some circumstances to slaughter babies, take slaves, rape women, kill non-believers, stone people for swearing, cut off a woman's hand if she grabbed a guy's genitals in order to save her husband's life, then how can you say that comparable features did not or do not exist in some Muslim nations or all nations?

I'm not going to defend those suras, but I don't think you can defend the passages I listed either. They are all remnants of less developed societies. I could have also included passages against homosexuality , which most Churches accept, but that would be a distraction. One's own apologetics should be considered before attacking the corresponding weaknesses of another. Challenge those who *do* practice.

Injustice and inequality doesn't have to be extreme to be wrong. Ruled over, obedient, subject to, disqualified from priesthood, homemakers; it is still inequality.

So London has been bombed... Who can it be? Hindus? Buddhists? Christians? Jews?

The fact is that we all know who does this, again and again and again. The rounds of excuses and denials have already begun, by Muslims (ie,... this is not the true Islam, Islam is a religion of peace, bla, bla, bla... wink, wink...)

The sad truth is that Islam is intolerant and oppressive. Everywhere Muslims dominate other religions, women, jews, gays are persecuted. Muslims in the west enjoy the benefits of Western Civilization, but cannot see the cruel, ugly reality of Islam. Is this blindness or takeyya (deception)?

Isn't it interesting that this gentlemen is from the same group that uses hate laws to silence people who say things about Islam that are exactly those found in Islamic literature with Muslims in Melourne? Of course, Imams who advocate rape or Muslims preaching hate are fine with the PC folks. What hypocrisy!

Mark my words, it is bad and it will get worse. Shame!!

John Kactu

Deuc

thanx for raising those important but often misunderstood passages.

Em touched on the crucial issue of context, both historical and theological. 350 words is nowhere near enough to address the issues raised by your 'from thehip/shotgun' approach :) but never mind.

You said.
"I'm not going to defend those suras, but I don't think you can defend the passages I listed either".

I'll highlight a couple of points for your consideration.

The primary difference between the way God dealt with the emerging Israelite nation, and how God allegedly addresses humanity thru the Quran, is this.

Israelites: There were 'nation specific' rules which can be seen from the primary covenanental foundation of the Decalogue (10 commandments) which apply to humanity, and the sub rules which applied in the historical realities of the time, where the survival of the nation depended on its retaining its identity and purity.
If you want to discuss this at length, your welcome to email me,
jdrmot@tpg.com.au

I'll pick up on the 'if you desire her AS WIFE from among the captives'... go into her etc.

Hard as it is for 21st century liberal humanistic man to fathom such things as 'just' or 'fair' or even 'right'. If you try to put yourself into the situation of the day, a captive woman could in fact refuse, if you look at the guidelines in Leviticus on this issue. Further, it was his desire for her as WIFE, not sex toy. They all knew the 'rules of the game' in those days, and faced with the possibilities of 'servitude' over 'wife' I think ultimately wife would be the more attractive option. She lost her former surroundings, be gained a new one. Social welfare if nothing else.
Bear in mind, the 'enemies' were out to SLAUGHTER the Israelites, so don't be too harsh on their approach to treatment of those they allowed to live.

Please see part 2...cont

Let me try to help Mr Waleed Aly. My feelings on Islam are well known, but I really sympathize with the fact that he said ..."Loyalty to one’s own country is constantly questioned. Like a Kafkan defendant, western Muslims are regularly required to prove their own innocence. And very often, any rebuttal is dismissed as lies." This is true and it is a difficult issue, being condemned a priori.

As a Kaffir I do not know Mr Aly's true feelings. God only knows. I do know what Muslim's do where they are a majority, and I do see the strength and radicalism in Muslim communities in the West. It seems when a radical and a moderate meet and talk, the radical wins - he has a better understanding of Islam, I guess.

So, based upon these simple facts, We - the people of the West - have every right to doubt your honesty, sincerity or even your understanding of Islam. We cannot put our women and our in children in jeopardy because it hurts your feelings. Tough! Based upon Islamic websites, there is no doubt that if Muslims ever control a Western country, out goes personal freedom, and in comes sharia law, persecution, hate, anger, killings, and all the other things that bring such joy to the hearts of true Muslims.

When Islamic coutries permit Christian and Buddhist missionaries to walk the streets of Libya and Iran, and when women can drive and vote in Arabia, and when Copts are not killed and kidnapped by Muslims in Eqypt, and when men who commit honor slayings are condemned to 30 years, etc... (you get the idea) THEN and only Then can we talk about your hurt feelings.

Don't hold your breath

Continued Part 2 (Deuc)

ISLAMIC/QURANIC The claim made by Islam is that Mohammed is the LAST of all prophets, and the Quran is the FINAL word to mankind. A 'shall' in Deuteronomy or Numbers, might not have the same universal 21st century weight as a statement from the 'Final Word'. It will very much depend on context.

ASH.

the charity/pope/gold issues. No one will agree with you more than I on those things. I just repeat "Look to Jesus" and compare and contrast.

Please don't lump 'ALL' Christians into the 'selective aid' camp. The mission I have been involved with (and there are MANY others) has people working seflessly with Lepers and the people who no one wants to know in Jordan etc http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s299612.htm See what a secular reporter (George Negus) reports about what the ARABS say about these 'openly Christian' missionaries to them.

I've met this woman, and some of the stories of human love are overwhelming.
In China, the early missionaries buried more of the own children than they could count converts (see "China Inland Mission")
The picture you painted was not the universal one- one has to treat manifestations of Christianity and mission work on a case by case basis.

ASH on the 'majority Islam' point in Egypt 500 yrs after mohammed. The same kind of thing happened in the Muslim Caucasus when the Orthodox 'ruled' Its always a trend for people to gravitate 'convert' to the direction of greatest economic advantage. But God knows our hearts.

I urge you to consider Christ, God the Son/Son of God, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father, ...but by me"

"if you have seen me, you have seen the Father" (John 14)

Persuasion may or may not change a heart, but God Himself can reach into your mind, in unexpected ways -watch out:)

As bishop Polycarp of Smyrna said while being burned at the stake for not denying Christ "Eighty years I have served Him, and he has not forsaken me, nor will I forsake Him now"

The Secret Organization Group of Al-Qa'ida of Jihad Organization in Europe:

"The Secret Organization Group of Al-Qa'idah of Jihad Organization in Europe (Jama'at al-Tanzim al-Sirri, Tanzim Qa'idat al-Jihad fi Urupa) In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate, may peace be upon the cheerful one and the dauntless fighter, Prophet Muhammad, God's peace be upon him.

O nation of Islam and nation of Arabism: Rejoice for it is time to take revenge from the British Zionist Crusader government in retaliation for the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The heroic mujahidin have carried out a blessed raid in London. Britain is now burning with fear, terror and panic in its northern, southern, eastern and western quarters.
We have repeatedly warned the British government and people. We have fulfilled our promise and carried out our blessed military raid in Britain after our mujahidin exerted strenuous efforts over a long period of time to ensure the success of the raid.

We continue to warn the governments of Denmark and Italy and all the Crusader governments that they will be punished in the same way if they do not withdraw their troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. He who warns is excused.

God says: " (O ye who believe!) If ye will aid (the cause of) Allah, He will aid you, and plant your feet firmly."

At: http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/alqaida-jihad-organization/2005/07/07/1120704497811.htm

Kaktuz,

We do see the ugliness of some who call themselves Muslims. I just read they killed the Egyptian ambassador in Iraq (seen by many as a good Muslim).
We are not in denial about some who adopt violent ideologies neither about the dysfunctional dictators who created them.

And since you are into “facts” here are some:

We are not in denial about AlQaeda and who created it, sponsored it in Afghanistan when it was killing other Muslims in Egypt, Sudan and Yemen.
President Sadat ‘created’ Islamic Jihad’ to help him fight the communism in Egypt in 1970. They fought communism and guess that they fought after that: killed Sadat himself.
AlQaeda funding, training, and even recruitment was done with US support during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
The moral of the story is always the same: ‘tamper with ideology and the dog will turn around one day and bit your arm”

Here is a summary of 29 years experience living breathing the culture, religion and geography:
Al Qaeda and its parallels is an ideology feeding on:

- Opression: comfy dictatorship.
- Religious ignorance: created by above dictators in order to protect themselves; “American conspiracy/ Israeli conspiracy” is the religious message dictators feed their simple folks to justify their existence. So, economical dysfunction, unemployment corruption its all because of the ‘bad Americans” (who ironically, appointed them to their jobs).
- Poverty
- Failing US foreign policy: and I need ‘books’ on this not 350 words.
- Failing/ lack of Israeli vision/ leadership for the Middle East.
Get rid of the five pillars and the ideology is gone.

BD,

I can recall my father’s wisdom: “strongest argument is usually within the same family”. You are preaching to the converted here: I love Jesus and I believe in him as all Muslims should. Although got to admit that some of us don’t give him the mentioning he is worth because of ‘political correctness’.

Ash

Fellow_Human,

Stop blaming the free nations of the west for horific acts of barbarism done in the name of Allah by those advocating jihad against the free West. The free nations of the West will run to the assistance of oppressed people regardless of their religion, eg Kurds, Aech.

Let us look at equal human justice for all, and stop justifying evil acts done in the name of Allah. Every man is equal and all deserve equal respect and justice, regardless of race or religion. Start condemning injustice and barbarism, do not excuse it.

Perhaps there is call here for investigation into your personal allegiance: is it to the people of Australia or to Islamic jihad.

BD: "If you try to put yourself into the situation of the day, a captive woman could in fact refuse, if you look at the guidelines in Leviticus on this issue."
Where in Leviticus? You say it was consentual, but I think that is a rather naive & rosy view, ignoring the "historical realities of the time". Why whould she need to "bewail her father and her mother" if it were?

"Further, it was his desire for her as WIFE, not sex toy."
Love at first sight huh? (For him anyway.) Beautiful woman? No, not about sex AT ALL.

"...faced with the possibilities of 'servitude' over 'wife' I think ultimately wife would be the more attractive option."
Beautiful, desired captives get the choice between sex and work, and that makes it all better?

"Bear in mind, the 'enemies' were out to SLAUGHTER the Israelites, so don't be too harsh on their approach to treatment of those they allowed to live."
You're using many different rationalisations here BOAZ_David. How do you know they were trying to slaughter the Israelites and that the Israelites weren't also? Go and crush etc... The Deuteronomy passage has general application, it isn't for a specific group of enemies. Also, by that logic it would be OK for Western nations to let soldiers take the daughters of terrorists as wives.

If the justification is historical realities or social need then there must be some good reason for it. Alternatively, historical relativism poses greater theological problems, ie. that God would be unable to protect Israel or give them an eternal moral system.

Do Muslims say that every aspect of the Quran has the same relevance today as when it was written? Of course not, situations change but the underlying values remain. Just because it is the word of God does not mean that circumstances do not change. Jesus did not prenounce the old law to be wrong and the new testament accepted slavery. The arguments work both ways.

And aren't the Caliphs/Imams succesors to Mohammed?

Kactuz, how many times have christians bombed London? Remember the IRA before making disingenous comments like "Who can it be?" Remember the Spanish government first assumed the Madrid bombings were the work of the catholics from ETA. Muslims don't have a monopoly on terrorism, and it is folly to pretend they do. Fanatics come in all creeds. Intolerance comes in all creeds - one of the most intolerant people I ever met was (nominally, although his behaviour belied it) Ba'hai. Sadly, it's being human that is the chief cause of these atrocities.

Yes indeed kactuz. And I don't think I'd mistaken in thinking the US forces were sent into Afghanistan and then Iraq by Mister Christianity himself, George Bush Jnr. It seems to me there is not just one religion that has a monopoly on warmongering in its name. Bastardisation of faiths occurs everywhere by opportunistic leaders of ill-will, and has done for aeons. Clearly the moral authority that "religions" offer is not necessarily guided by a commitment to peace or to non-aggressive means of resolving political difference, territorial grabs or any of those other tawdrey material and idealogical disputes most of the great religions and denominations purport to be 'above'.......

It is so obvious that America has caused all the terrorism in the world that is if we were to believe all the Anti American bigitory posted here. When will the individual terrorist be responsible for his own barbaric actions? George forced hin to do it!

It would be nice to live in a world where there no enemies of the people. Learn who is the enemy. Ask who will befriend you when your life is threatened? Will it be George or Osama? If not George then you are a threat to Australia.

Philo,

My writing is clear on what I stand for. In the last thread I was making the point that fighting terrorism have to be on all fronts because 5 years on and it is still there. Your personal attack is unprovoked and unprofessional.

Hi JustDan,

Thank you for taking us back to the origion of what we have in common: humanity and caring for each other. On the Gandhi question, I can hope that him, Mother Theresa and Jacob Saanouh (A sabean, Christian and a Jew) can benefit from the famous merciful 2:62.

We can only be good, purify our hearts and be good to each other.

BD,

I enjoyed our conversation on this thread. Hope nothing I said offended you.

AK

I put this post up for the article http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3651 and somebody told me it would be better here. What have you to say on this matter, sir?

"May the reader consider carefully the nature of Islam. Though it speaks of peace, tolerance and equality, the Qur'an's self proclaimed right of abrogation reduces these claims to empty words. The overall picture of the Qur'an is one of violence to non-Muslims. The comments of Islamic leaders motivate followers to war against non-Muslims. Muhammad, the Apostle of Allah, was himself a violent man, killing those who opposed his religion. Though not all Muslims may conduct themselves in like manner, without doubt, Islam teaches its followers to be violent."

The issue of peace in Islam has troubled me ever since Muslim terrorists started using the Koran to justify their acts, and the ICV went to such extensive lengths to prevent Islam from being studied. I typed "violence" and "Koran" into a search engine and found this site: http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/20030126.htm The 1st paragraph of this post is a summary of the site. Irfan Yusuf, I appreciate your apologetics work for Western Muslims, but how do you explain the claims made in that website about the violent nature of the Koran?

ASH.....
me .. offended ? :) good grief, "I live for this"... I've seen and heard most of what can be said, and trust me, I'm not offended in the slightest when engaging in a spiritual debate.

If anything does offend me, its more the secular hypocricy of people who speak about 'artistic freedom' to justify increasingly sleazy so called entertainment, when the real reason is to 'make fast cash by increased ratings'.

But you, or Irfan, never worry, I take it all in my stride :)
I'm a great believer in the sovereignty of God and His work in peoples lives. I can only stumble along in my own way, but He is the one who changes hearts. God bless abundantly.

FIONA... well there you go again :) condemning religion and attacking the only thing which is holding back those who wish to turn Afghanistan into a 'massive terror training camp' and Iraq, well ok there is an 'oil' element, but not in the sense of 'taking' it, as much as ensuring continuity of supply. But the freedom from Sadaams horrific rule, I would have expected you to rejoice rather than ridicule.

I fail to see how you don't "get" the fact (not the theory) that the insurgency is from a few mindless graduates of Wahabi style Madrassa's and the 'old guard' formerly privileged oppressive minority who treated all those under their power with a level of contempt and mercilessness that stands along side the 'great evildoers' of history like Hitler and Pol Pot etc.

I am bold enough to say "how dare you " bucket Bush as a'warmonger' etc. how dare you compare the actions of those sacrificing their lives to give freedom of CHOICE to a nation, with warmongering.

And further by what measuring stick do you insult our intelligence and grasp of reality and suggest that your 'peaceful non aggressive means of solving political difference' can be applied to such situations as Iraq, my goodness, such drivel has its home in disneyland. Its not a Bex and a good lie down you need, its a few yrs lived in Iraq or some similar country.

Now, be assured, I'm not ridiculing 'you' but I AM calling your statements into serious question, I'm simply telling it like it is. drivel is drivel, Sorry.

BOAZ_David,
I have to agree with you over all the Bush-bashing done on this forum. I lived through the Second World War on the north coast of NSW and realise how close we came to being annihilated by the Japanese. So I am extremely thankful for America's assistance in driving back the Japanese. I have nothing against the people of Japan, as I have had Japanese exchange students spend 10 months in my home. Beside four years after the war my father supplied Jersey dairy cattle to the Japanese. But it was America that rebuilt Japan and established better relations with us. Thank God for America.

Much of the "Hate America Campaign" is propaganda from Saudi influences. These people have read too much propaganda. Those who treat America as the real enemy; one can only wonder if they support the agenda of terrorists in Australia?

BoazDavid. Your apology accepted. Nothing else in your post warrants reaction

FIONA
I'll try to tone down my 'passion' just a tad to seek your serious and considered opinion on the matters of Afghanistan and Iraq.

1/ Afghanistan. What is your view in regard to the position that the Insurgents/Taliban are fighting more for a haven of Islamic terror training and a launching pad for 'world jihad/kill the great Satan (USA)', than they are for a simple 'leave us alone to run our lives as quiet and peaceful muslims' ?

If you agree with this assessment of the true motivation of the Taliban, what is your (realistic/proven) solution to this ?
If you dont agree, then what is your take on the place ?

2/ Iraq. Do you in fact support the cutting out of tongues, the slow carving off of heads, the gouging out of eyes, the torture of ones children in front of you, the mis-spending of available resources on (yet more) palaces, while blaming the suffering of the Iraqi people on 'Western Sanctions', the arbitrary rape of mens wives by Sadaams sons, the mass slaughter of Shia's and Kurds simply for 'being different'?
If you don't support this, do you believe the UN was/is able to put an end to these things ? If you don't support it, why condemn the US for combining self interest with social justice ?

3/ Has the UN "ever" proved itself capable of actually preventing genocides ?

Reasonable questions. How about some considered and reasonable answers ?

Last time I looked around, I noticed that life is not a checkerboard on which everyone must walk either on the white squares or black squares but never cross between the two on different issues, nor is it a place without shade, nuance, subtlety or greyness.

Questions posited on the basis that "If you oppose 'X' then you must defend 'Y'", are not reasonable, they're just silly.

So, for a game of one-eyed combat, boazdavid, try someone else.

Spanish Inquisition, the crusades, witch burning, paedophilia, ku-klux klan and I'm not really trying all that hard to think of extreme christian activity.

BD - stop villifying those who believe differently to you - it only discredits you.

And, furthermore, your posts simply prove the truth of Waleed Aly's article that Bogus assumptions are indeed made about western Muslims.

Just lately, it seems, every thread I read has you BD, attempting to discredit either muslims in particular or non christians in general.

WHY? What do you hope to achieve from fostering further prejudice?

Trinity,
I am asking where in the life of the founder of the Christian faith did he use or teach the practises of those in your list? How can they clain to follow Christ? They followed more in the actions and teachings of Mahomet who both taught and practised the terrible acts of torture and death. We are not defending a religion we are defending a principle.

"Spanish Inquisition, the crusades, witch burning, paedophilia, ku-klux klan and I'm not really trying all that hard to think of extreme christian activity".

Leaked No 10 dossier reveals
"AL-QAEDA is secretly recruiting affluent, middle-class Muslims in British universities and colleges to carry out terrorist attacks in England. "A network of "extremist recruiters" is circulating on campuses targeting people with "technical and professional qualifications", particularly engineering and IT degrees.

The London bombings were sophisticated - all the devices detonating on the Underground within 50 seconds. Police believe they may be home-grown British terrorists with no criminal backgrounds and possessing technical expertise. A joint Home Office and Foreign Office dossier - Young Muslims and Extremism, said Britain might be harbouring thousands of Al-Qaeda sympathisers. Lord Stevens, former Metropolitan police chief, revealed that up to 3,000 British-born or British-based people had passed through Osama Bin Laden's training camps. The Whitehall dossier, ordered by Tony Blair following last year's train bombings in Madrid, says: "Extremists are known to target schools and colleges where young people may be more susceptible to extremist reasoning/ arguments."

Drawing on information from MI5, it concludes: "Intelligence indicates that the number of British Muslims actively engaged in terrorist activity, whether at home or abroad or supporting such activity, is extremely small and estimated at less than 1%."
This equates to fewer than 16,000 potential terrorists and supporters out of a Muslim population of almost 1.6m. The dossier also estimates that 10,000 have attended extremist conferences. The security services believe that the number who are prepared to commit terrorist attacks may run into hundreds. Most of the Al-Qaeda recruits tend to be loners "attracted to university clubs based on ethnicity or religion" because of "disillusionment with their current existence". British-based terrorists are made up of different ethnic groups. "They range from foreign nationals now naturalised and resident in the UK, arriving mainly from north Africa and the Middle East, to second and third generation British citizens whose forebears mainly originate from Pakistan or Kashmir. "In addition . . . a significant number come from liberal, non-religious Muslim backgrounds or (are) only converted to Islam in adulthood. These converts include white British nationals and those of West Indian extraction." ......
At http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1688261,00.html

No wonder this thread deals with McCarthyism and nutbags….

Still: All Christians (and Muslims for that matter) – None of you have* answered my question:
Does Ghandi get saved, even though he was not a follower of Christ (or Allah)? Simple question really.

* Fellow_Human excluded. He has. Thanks. I assume you meant, yes, he’s worthy of the Lords grace?

FIONA
The reason I challenged you after your "Mr Christianity" post, re bastardization of faiths etc, is that you are long on condemnation, and short on solution, so I tried to distill it down to some major chewable issues. Yet, you respond with 'nuance, checksquares, etc.

If you are going to be passionate about 'condemning' and 'throwing the first stone' you have to also defend your 'lack of sin' so to speak. i.e. put forward a position or solution which will do more than just 'tear down'. You condemn Bush, and mock his faith, (err last time I checked also, he is not Christ, but a man, and subject to human failings).

But more important, given he choice between a Bush led democractic and free Iraq, and a Sadaam genocide/slaughter/torture/oppression, you just give 'nuance' etc........ don't you realize how shallow that appears ? One is tempted to draw some quite unsavory conclusions as to your real motivation/purpose. (when added to your thoughts expressed in other threads)

I made my position pretty clear, and stand by it. How about doing the forum the same service ?

You did make one pertinent point, about the bastardization of faiths in the political sense. This has been occuring since Constantine declared the Empire "Christian", but prior to that, the only problem was heresy and unholy living by individual Christians.

JUSTDAN
Didn't mean to ignore your question, snowed under with things :)
Ghandi, it is not for us to judge people. God does that. We proclaim Christ. Ghandi was a sinner just like us. He will answer for his position. One thing he said "If the Christians acted as the gospel teaches, India would be Christian". So, he knew the gospel.

Read my last post, boazdavid.

BASTARDIZATION OF FAITH.? or the "ACTUAL" faith....

For the likes of Fiona, Garra, who only see 'bigoted fundamentalist' when they see our posts against 'Islam' (not Muslims)
Here is some information about how some MAJORITY status Muslims perceive their faith "Islam.com"

http://islam.com/reply.asp?id=477507&ct=9&mn=477507 <== read this !

See how:

a) Quran
b) Hadith (Bukari/Muslim)
c) Histories (Tabari, Ibn Ishaq)
d) Life practice of Mohammed (as revealed in the above, the SUNNAH)

all support and outline what I have been contending all along, which is that at the 'foundation' of the faiths, there is a VAST GULF of difference, when contrasted with that established by Christ and the Apostles.

Quran 33:26
“Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things.

This refers to a massacre of Jews

Hadith: "fleshing out" the above. Bhukhari Vol4 No 280

Then Sad came and sat beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgement." Sad said, "I give the judgement that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners." The Prophet then remarked, "O Sad! You have judged amongst them with (or similar to) the judgement of the King Allah

Histories:

Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 “The Jews were made to come down, and Allah’s Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men.

"Sugar Free" Mohammed
Hadith Muslim 16 -4131
(the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died.

Let truth speak

BD,

Interesting you are using terrorism ideology and references.

The Quran 33:26 refers to the judgement on those who ‘deceived and betrayed during the time of war” referred to in 33:22. I am sure you knew that, yet you pursue the intentional misleading and vilification.

There is no ‘sugar quoting/ sugar free Mohammed: the narrated hadith (which you never quote or refer to) talks about his spirituality, then his actions as a firm leader in times of war. Which ironically enough, will be in Jesus‘s second coming in our belief.

After many postings, I can only say that you deliberately confuse legal system in Islam with the spiritual message for an agenda that only God and you know about. If you think your faith is so good, I am sure you can prove it without attacking Islam. I agree a lot of Muslims, like others will do horrible things; there is no magic solution to evil.

Please don't refer to the "truth speaks" beacuse you are intentionally far from it. Hope the blinker drops,

AK

To all posters

The more I read the postings here, the more confused I become. I am a Christian white born Australian (of Irish and Polynesian extraction). I would like to understand more about this debate.

Is there anyone who can clearly explain in a few paragraphs the separate meanings of Islam and Muslim? That's where I am stuck - so that the remainder of the debate remains way beyond me. As a result I have nothing to contribute - except my ignorance.

Thank you

I believe (and I am no authority, I'm trying to remember a Uni course several years ago!) that "Islam" means the religion (like say "christianity"), whereas "Muslims" are the followers of Islam (so like the equvialent of "christians"). Hope this is correct! :)

Fellow_Human, ever seen a retailer running down the competition? The ones who focus on that and yet are unwilling to deal honestly with their own businesses failings will con some customers. I suspect that they put more customers off than they gain.

Some parts of christianity really hate competition. Keep up the polite posts, it brings a lot more credit to your beliefs.

R0bert

Thank Robert / Laurie.

Kalweb,
Islam: Arabic word for peace/ submission to the will of God.
Faith:
1- Believe in one God, have a direct relationship with no idols or intermediaries.
2- Believe in all his prophets and messengers and love them equally: there are 25 prophets in the Koran) and references to prophets that we were not told about. (Messengers are those with a message in Islam they are four: Moses, David, Jesus and Mohamed).
3- Belief in the last day (Judgement) and resurrection and that we shall all be judged for our deeds.
4- Pray 5 times a day, fast Ramadan and pay the almes (Poor tax).
5- Do the pilgrim once in a life time if you can afford it.
Values:
6- Avoid the major sins: idolatry, forgery, being ungrateful to your parents, gossip, adultery.
7- Repent and ask God for forgiveness when you commit a sin. Be good to your parents, family, neighbours, and help the poor and needy.
8- Resist temptations, defend your country, sponsor and defend the orphan and the widow.
9- Purify your heart for God judges your intent before your deeds. Do not harm yourself (alcohol, drugs, gambling) or others.
10- Be good to all creatures and animals for they are nations/ believers like us.

Muslims:
Those who follow above and worship God/ Allah.
(Allah is Arabic for God, some Muslims insist on using Allah because a) it is the only word that has no plural b) it is the only word that is neither male or female, there is no ‘it’ in semetic languages, Allah is God in the Arabic bible as well).
Scripture:
The Koran for all Muslims is the word of God. Additional man made references like narrated hadith (sayings of the prophet written by different sources), local fatwa (Imam’s opinion on modern day issues).
Reliance on man made reference varies upon the individuals and is discredited if contradicting the Koran. A lot of the Koran is metaphoric that is why it is important to read ‘meanings interpretation’. Pickthall is probably the closest translation to the real meanings.

AK

Fellow_Human

Thank you very much for your reply to my question above. I found your response very interesting and useful. I will have to read it many times before I can grasp it's meanings - especially in the context of terrorism.

I logged on to www.faithfreedom.org for clarification. I found the writings on that site just as scary as terrorism. Am I wrong or just plain naive?

Thanks also to you Laurie.

Ash/Fellow

I know the background to that Surah, and you claim it was a Time of War, but a reading of the history shows that they Jews were clearly in fear for their lives, and made alliances which are typical of any group in a tribal mix, simply to preserve their lives. Its incomprehensible to claim that it was a'time of war' THEREFORE the men and boys can be slaughtered systematically, when they did not even fight. They had surrendered.

Robert, are u following this, Laurie ?... Ash has justified the systematic beheading of POW's -the whole male population of a village by Mohammed because it 'was a time of war'.

Now, lets quickly zoom over to Bosnia. The Serbs went to Srebreniza, took the surrendered Muslim males and systematically executed them.
Was this 'ok' ? most people are calling it a war crime of holocaust magnitude.

If it was 'not' ok, why was MOhammeds act 'ok' ? Let me guess :) "He was defending the 'true religion of God' ? "Allah told him to" ... hmmmm....

Robert... still following ? Is this just 'my dogmatic opinion' ?

or is it a reasonable assessment of the facts as they stand.

Are you still looking fondly at how Ash's 'sugar coating' of Islam's prophet is 'giving his beliefs more credibility ?

Lets not be unfair, Ash's 'beliefs' -I applaud his sincere desire to know God, and defend what he believes is the 'final revelation' from God, but his sincerity is blinding him to the facts of his alleged prophet. (note "facts")

Rob, look at Christ, his apostles, see if you can find anything of a similar nature. Did Jesus use a sword ? Did he surround himself with women ? Did he claim "The world belongs to Allah and His Apostle" ? (which by the way includes YOUR property) If you think that is just a 'pretty word picture' and not a 'literal' statement, examine how Mohammed DID take 1/5 of war booty, for himself. (which he often used in benevolent ways, but it was still YOURS before he took it)

BOAZ_David, I don't really care a lot about the discussion over scriptures. Deliberately targetting innocents during a time of war is an abomination and anyone doing so or ordering that it be done deserves our utmost comdemnation. Agreed.

My point is that Fellow_Human and others have been consistant in the tone of their posts. That tone has been one which reflects well on themselves and their faith.

Your continued attacks on anything not christian and double standards when comparing christianity to other beliefs do not do you or your beliefs any credit. If anything they chase at least some of us further away.

Have a read of Joshua 6:21 (plenty of others if thats not enough) and tell me your criticisms of Islam are fair.

"21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it&#8212;men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."

R0bert

Boaz-David, I have certainly not defended Quranic scriptures, I am aware there is much that is violent and unpalatable contained within them. Equally, what little I know of Christian, and indeed Jewish and Hindu holy books suggest that if you go looking, there is much to disapprove of and dismiss as inhumane and disgraceful to human rights as we understand them today.

That there are unpalatable aspects to all major religions does not mean that the people who pick up on and preach and/or practice the truly GOOD aspects of that religion are misguided or delusional.

Equating violent scriptures with an expecation that all followers of that religion will act to echo these violent deeds is surely insulting to all followers of religion.

BD,

Again you are betting on the ignorance of your counterpart and hoping for naïve audience. You are not getting either!
There are two different scenarios you keep confusing: POW and ‘treason during war’:

- When Prophet Mohamed entered Mecca after a decade or so of being persecuted and prevented to pray in his home town. He took 6,000 prisoners. These are POWs and what did he do to them? He released them all regardless of their religion with no condition.
- The incident you refer to is a time of war: all Jewish tribes promised truce when the prophet was in a war, then one of the Jewish tribes turned and attacked his back and killed lots of civilians. This is treason during war and at least has the decency to mention that the proposed punishment was made by other Jewish tribes who wanted to rescue the Muslim Jewish relations. Prophet Mohamed implemented the law.
- As for the ‘money’ matters: please read G. Sale / William Muir (English Historians) who documented that all he left at death was a shield and a mule (not even a horse) and everything he had he spent on Muslims orphans and widows.
There is no violent scripture in the Koran except within legal system or self defence. Even when self defence is mentioned, it stops as soon as the aggressor stops. Salahudin didn’t follow crusaders into Europe.
As for your reference to the Bible, maybe you should tell me the wisdom of God (ie Jesus in your belief) killing every first born child in Egypt until the Jews were allowed to leave.
God help those who read and listen to your versions of “truth”.

To conclude:

We are happy and proud of Islam and being Muslims. Just be happy with your religion and move on. Jesus teachings and miracles make more sense in the Koranic teachings (33 times mentioned versus 4 times for prophet Mohamed, does that tell you something?)

Robert / Laurie,
No offence intended if any of you are practising Christians.

Peace to all of you (including you BD).

AK

Heh. I'm actually not the slightest bit religious! :) I'm just keen on not denigrating those who are, of whatever persuasion, simply because others claiming to be from their spritual/moral/ethnic/national/whatever grouping happen to commit crimes. :)

LAURIE

if you have gained the impression that I see "ALL" followers of Islam as ready to drop everything, spend a week at the nearest maddrassa and belt up with a bomb, then please show me exactly where I suggested such ?

ROBERT happy to engage you on that matter (Joshua) but not now, "clutter"
Suffice to say, that on sound principles of interpretation, no one will be or is, slaughtering non Christians because of Joshua.

There are many levels of belief between the kindly likes of Fellow Human and the bombers. Some are close, others like Fellow Human are far.

We all need to understand the 'mindset' of Muslims, which generally emphasizes the good and positive of their faith, but take a look at Islamic sites and talk to some Muslims about Jerusalem/Palestinians/Jews, Chechnya, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. and you will gain an inkling of how deep the sense of humiliation goes, then you will see the anger, hate, frustration.

This is the point, where the easily influenced, impressionable, shapable mind is vulnerable.
Now "what" takes a mind of this type from being 'vulnerable' to 'willing to suicide and bomb' ?

Think about that for a moment....... done ? good :) it will be an intense indoctrination of the available negative (to us) aspects of the faith, the warlike 'fight the unbelievers' type of stuff. (that could be you, your mum, dad, son, daughter on the 6.15 from flinders street)
FELLOW HUMAN

Facts.

1/ Mohammed decided to make a raid on the Bani Qurayza, as he suspected they had made an alliance against him (which they had, out of pure survival interests)
2/ Bani Qurayza (Jews) had been beseiged for about 15 days.
3/ They gave up.
4/ Mohammed asked if they will accept the judgement of Sa'ad.
5/ They agreed. (thinking it would be kinder than Mohammeds)
6/ Sa'ad declared "'Kill the men/Enslave the womens/children".
7/ Mohammed then systematically beheaded them in small groups in the market place. 600 to 900 men murdered.

Srebreniza was different 'how' ?

BD,

610 AD was the year prophet Prophet Mohamed started preaching his message. Most of the Jewish tribes received him with hate, persecution and accused him of madness (the ‘liar’ wouldn’t stick because of his reputable truthfulness). For the following decade, they persecuted him, killed his followers, tried to kill him. They sieged him and followers in Mecca for three years and deined them food, water or trade and could whoever attempts to leave was killed. Famine and thirst would lead to the death of his wife, uncle and only son (including watching them celebrate his son’s death). Forcing him into wars where he was outnumbered either 9 or 11 to 1 (1 were the poor, the slave and the widow). Then driven out of his country of birth for his only sin was preaching monotheism to Arabs.

Yet he persisted until Islam had enough followers to defend itself, the tribes proposed peace. He accepted the truce and forgave the past. He put his trust in his new ‘allies’ only to come back and found the atrocities they did. He didn’t go fighting everyone neither did he cancel the truce but he investigated and siege only the perpetrators.
He arrested them and brought them back to the other Jewish tribes to judge them for treason during war and committing atrocities against the defenseless. He carried out the sentence proposed by the Jews and kept the truce and kept the peace with the other Jewish tribes. The whole legal system is there: Crime, investigation, arrest, judgment and sentence execution.
They were punished because of crime not for being Jews. Srebrenica their only crime was being Muslims.
As for your views on Muslim mindset, Religion on its own cannot ignite violence or terror but agree that it could be used as a catalyst if other factors such as lack of understanding of Islam and other religions, lack of understanding of history, tendency to violence/ emotional instability, lack of experience,etc. Unfortunately we do have a gap in educating the youth but the moderates are usually far less funded than the Wahabi!

Peace
AK

Strange that the arguments between Islam and Christianity commence 1000 or more years ago. Yes, strained times during a period of religious fever, when to not believe the crowd was dangerous and deadly. Understandable in a not so enlightened time.

Zip forward 1000 years and we still have conflict. However, if one thinks, the violence going on today can be seen as a result of religious beliefs being misused by factions as a tool rather than a true reflection of faith. There was a time when the Christian church used indoctrination and terror to achieve their goals. In the greater scheme of things what’s 1000 years? Another 1000 and perhaps the Krishna’s will be terrorising (no offence to the Krishna. It’s only an example!).

Yes, people are being brainwashed with certain aspects of Islam. But as Islam has the majority numbers on this little ball, why do we not have a million – or ten million bombers going off around the world? Could it be that most Muslims abhor the violence and misuse of their faith. Muslims tend to be somewhat stronger in their faith than Christians (I wonder why?) so it is conceivable that IF the violence was a true reflection, then many more of the Islamic faith would be blowing themselves up to reach heaven! But they are NOT!

As Laurie said (and I paraphrase) – no one has a moral superiority on another’s faith/religion/belief.

ON TOPIC – it is easy for one to misrepresent the faith of another. If so inclined, the Islamic community has a wealth of examples to give – both historic and modern. Simply looking at the behaviour of our ‘Christian’ west is ample. Corruption, greed, deceit. And to argue that these aren’t true Christians can easily apply to the fundamentalist Muslim’s current actions also. So pull your heads in and practice your true faith.

Go beyond cheap shots for your faith and practice the tolerance and understanding that both preach. It may be the first and only step to achieving peace.

Boaz-David, you do tend to imply that those who do not follow your faith, and who in particular follow Islam, have a higher tendancy towards criminality and 'evil'. I doubt you have ever specifically said 'all muslims are bad', but you do often imply this is your posts.

Besides, my previous two posts within this thread most certianly do not suggest you have said anything wrong, I have merely pointed out that all scriptures, of all religions, have negative examples of behaviour and advice, and that it is how a person practices that shows who they are, and that people should not be considered 'guilty by association', simply through their membership to a grouping that may have been accused of criminality.

Ash !

I think I should begin calling you 'brother' or 'comrade' or 'fellow pilgrim' :) because your post, was the clearest example of making my point and adding some exclamation marks that I could ever ask for. THANKS.

The point was, "There is an unbroken line of 'violent struggle' in Islam today, going back all the way to MOhammed and his companions' and your little sentence of "When Islam was strong enough to defend itself".... did all my work for me. 'Defend'.....how ? clearly, with weapons and invasions, and raids. This is not some remote caliph 300 yrs after your prophet, it is the prophet himself, and that is the 'well' from which the terrorists draw their spiritual water from.

For the sake of clarity, I am going to use some capitals now excuse me==> THIS DOES NOT... REPEAT NOT mean that 'All muslims are terrorists' in fact as has been pointed out, 'most' are peaceful.

Dan, and Laurie,

I won't say any more on that subject because Ash has done it for me. I hope you actually note the point we are at now, and I could have said all this without any reference to my own faith whatsover, and it would still be true.

I don't know if you guys are in any way searching, but I strongly recommend a reading of the book of Acts, and see exactly how the early church grew, its fascinating, and you may gain an insight for my own passion, and if the age of miracles has not ceased, a greater level of 'Tolerance' for my own position :)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=1&version=31

I have not seen you guys urging Ash to 'tolerate' me :) u just join in the chorus of condemnation. But its all good, and even though I seem to be the target of a considerable degree of the 'rough end of the verbal stick' from you guys, we are all thinking, our minds are opening, we are reflecting, in this I rejoice

BD,

My points are simple:
• To clarify to you that there is a legal? Juridical component: you cannot compare apples and oranges. I would have appreciated it if you said:” Ash, the legal punishment in Islam is harsh for certain crimes” but not label punishment as cruelty. That’s straight forward misleading.
• I was not there in the early days of Islam to judge why they were persecuted and what their other alternatives were with tribes coming to kill them. Neither were you when the time Constantine decided for all the empire to become Christians overnight.
• Through early history of Islam, there was no forceful conversion. Christian Copts in Egypt are still there until today. Yes they were taxed but never forced into another religion, prophet Mohamed married Maria (an Egyptian Christian) and his first wife Khadija family had some of the greatest Christian monks (who remained Christians).

BTW, whats with the ‘toletate you mean’? ‘toleroph’ is my middle name! I have nothing against you or your annoying websites :):) . All I am saying is you need to reach to your Muslim brothers and support them in their fight against terrorism and extremism. Every religion/ culture is bound for crisis and we are in this crisis now. We need support from the community and not ‘I hate all of you’ attitude.
Peace,

Ak

BOAZ_David, are you one of those christians caught up in the idea of been blessed when you are persecuted for Jesus and deal with that by seeking out "persecution"? I'm beginning to suspect so.

The reason Fellow_Human is getting a different response to yourself is that he is taking a very different attitude in his posts. I doubt that any of the non believers in this thread have any great love for Islam, rather we don't like the double standards you insist on using in this and other threads.

The Joshua reference was not a distraction, it was an example from your own scriptures (one of many) where innocents were slaughtered at the command of your religions founder. It is dishonest to point the finger at Islam for violence in it's scriptures and refuse to deal what is in your own cupboard. Unless you renounce the old testament, I guess I have not considered that you may not accept the god of the old testament as part of the same trinity as Jesus. You may be off the hook if you reject the OT, otherwise pointing the finger at Islam for scriptural attrocities leaves a number of fingers pointing at the bible.

R0bert

Rob, the events of Joshua, and all references to judgements in the Old testament, must be read in full context, historical and theological, and I hope you will go back and start at Genesis, and then go right through to the end of Deuteronomy. Then keep going to Revelation :)

Try to enter into the feeling of the life in those days, the mood, the cultural and historical ethnic/tribal atmosphere. See how humanity progessed from 'So and so the son of .... who then became a tribe then a country/nation.

I'm 56 and I am repeatedly amazed to my back teeth at the continual layers of depth which are to be found in these, and I'm not talking about cute devotional thoughts, I'm talking real life real world cultural aspects that I can immediately relate to, probably because of my wifes tribal background and her own culture with is so similar in so many ways.

Suffice to say, NO ONE who applies sound principles of understanding, that they would apply to every day life today, would ever think of using those events in any other way than to point to the specific judgement of God for particular reasons at a particular time, or, the defense of a nation. Extrapolating from those events to 'general principles, currently applicable' is just a no brainer, no legs, does not happen.

In contrast, the idea "The world and all that is in it belongs to Allah and his Messenger" is clear cut, definite, without ambiguity and has contemporaneous and current applicability. It was the belief in THAT truth which took the Islamic hourdes right up to Tours in France, where they were stopped by Gods grace.

When I look at the Crusades, the Colonial period, battles between so called Christian nations, I just goto one place, the New Testament, and I simply compare, Christ and the Apostles, their life and teaching, with the events under scrutiny. Its easy :)

"Suffice to say, NO ONE who applies sound principles of understanding, that they would apply to every day life today, would ever think of using those events in any other way than to point to the specific judgement of God for particular reasons at a particular time, or, the defense of a nation. Extrapolating from those events to 'general principles, currently applicable' is just a no brainer, no legs, does not happen."

So why is that fine for Christianity, but not for Islam or any other faith?!

The mind boggles.

Sound reasoning and point well made, Laurie.

I think the inconsistencies we here in this thread are what happens when someone's thinking is comfortably ensconsed in a cul-de-sac. Very difficult to see anything outside of the immediate, familiar and secure from such a limited vantage. There's a lot of this thinking around now; hence the growing audience amenable to fear messages (overt & the dog whistles), the emergence of "gated communities", etc etc.

I call upon all Catholics in Australia who intend strapping bombs to themselves and walking into crowded malls to STOP! I call upon all Penticostals who incite hatred against unbelievers to BE SILENT! I call upon all infidels who terrorise Christians to CEASE! Wait a minute; Who have I forgotten who might do such vile acts? Are the Catholics listening? Are the Penticostals listening? Are the Infidels listening?

Philo pastry, suggest U stop the Hate Rant. OK

Read this:

"Cult psychology may help explain why young men become suicide murderers.

Zealots who tend to violence are meant to be easy to spot. That is why the identities of the alleged London bombers are so arresting. All were British born and raised. Most were well educated, showing no signs of religious fervour. Only one appears to have been remotely socially dysfunctional. For those who believe in the stereotyped terrorist as either rabidly fanatical or desperate, illiterate, and oppressed, this superficial normality is mystifying. It is therefore dangerous to reduce this kind of terrorism to an inherent consequence of Islamist extremism."

http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/how-to-confront-a-cult-of-terror/2005/07/15/1121415624460.html

Some of us are looking for answers - why don't you give it a try?

Man, wot of lot of nasty Christians on this forum. R there any out there who aren't such a bunch of zealots? Where are the christians who believe in peace, love and tolerance? Wot kind of forum is this? I'm going to bed.

Johnny - well said. You have asserted what I have been thinking for ages. Many of the so-called Christians in this and other threads seem to be very nasty people - certainly not what I understand about Christian behaviour.

I visit these threads to try and gain knowledge and understanding of others - especially people of Islamic faith. I find the whole thing very complex and confusing but I do not sit in judgement. The problem is, the more I read, the more confused I seem to get.

I think it is very sad that so many posters seem to be attacking each other at a personal level. Hardly what I call academic debate.

Have a good sleep mate!

BD/ Philo,

I am happy with my religious beliefs and happy with Christians (Orthodox, Catholics or protestants), I am happy with Jewish friends and do not judge them. I have nothing against anyone who is good to himself, others, abide by the law and respect others.

If you think i am an 'infidel' until I accept your teachings then you are as bad as BinLaden. Islamo fascism and Christian facism are 'brothers in terror'..

AK

Kalweb,

Seems most reasonable people on the forum are saying the same thing:
we should all unite against terrorism.
Few however, are promoting their own version of fascism and rejection of others (ie fighting facism with facism).

You are entitled to ask any question about my faith and I promise to answer to the best of my knowledge and won't get offended (witness BD 'loving' comments :)

Regards to you all,

AK

Dear Kaleb... here is the post I mentioned in the other thread.

Firstly, academic debate, relates to 'facts' not to just 'opinions'.

THE FACTS.

BANU QURAYZA Mass Murder.

Context

Quran 33 "The confederacy" A group of tribes opposed to Islam and Mohammed were confronting him (for the sake of their lives)

An Arab tribe which allied itself with a Jewish Tribe (Qurayza) attacked the Muslims but after defeat (the battle of the Trench) they withdrew, abandoning their Jewish ally.

The Qurayza (the Jews) were beseiged, and after some days surrendered unconditionally.

The Quran speaks of this Surah 33.26 "Some you killed, others you took prisoner"

This specific event is further fleshed out in the Hadith. Where the following points are added:

1/ They were offered the judgement of a Cheif named "Sa'ad" who declared "Kill all the men, enslave the women and children"

2/ Mohammed rejoiced in this "Ah, this is like the judgement of God"

Now, the hadith does NOT say 'All the men 'were' slaughtered' It just says "They should be".

So, where do we look for any evidence of what actually took place ?

1/ Ibn Ishaq http://www.prophetofdoom.net/banuqurayza.html

Please read the whole section Kalweeb

(wrote a history of Mohammed, Questioned by some, but his account of the Banu Qurayza is supported by another historian, Al Tabari and the Hadith of Muslim)

2/ Hadith of Al-Tabari

On this event, he reports

“The Messenger of God commanded that furrows should be dug in the ground for the Qurayza. Then he sat down. Ali and Zubayr began cutting off their heads in his presence.”
(Tabari, VIII, page 40)

3/ Hadith of Bhukari

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 280: (find the link and scroll to 280)

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html

All sources are Islamic except the Ibn Ishaq one, but the quotes are accurate.

Kalweeb (Ash) there is not enough sugar in the world, to make this sweet. If you or anyone wishes to follow this man, its a free country.

BD,

My post on the 14 July addressed this issue which was a legal punishment for traitors during the time of war. Please reread.

You have been dwelling on this topic, cutting and pasting from the prophet of doom type of site which neither objective nor impartial on history. You ignored writing of british historians on this story like Sale adn W. Muir.

Perhaps you should tell us what the punishment should be for a treason during war times and murdering civilians?
Islam is clear on spiritual values and teachings but also have a cear preventive laws to protect the society. Maybe you should explain to me what laws should you apply to murderers, rapists, child molesters?...

I can never really tell whether you have a point to make. You seem to dive and dig out something gambling on audience ignorance until you get caught 'red handed' then you dig out something else...

Wish you the inner peace every person deserves,

AK

Fellow_Human, I note in your post above you state, "You are entitled to ask any question about my faith and I promise to answer to the best of my knowledge and won't get offended." I am still awaiting your response to my post from a topic introduced by Ifran on the death of Shaykh Abu Bakr’s, re John 14 and Deuteronomy 33: 2, VVIII-18.

My question to you is: How is sin (an act or attitude against God) atoned for in Islam? The Jews had blood sacrifice, the Christians have the death of Christ. What reconciles the sinner to Allah?

Dear BOAZ David

Thanks for your post and the references. Yes, you are correct. Academic argument/debate is about presenting facts above all else. I take your point. But I guess it's the "selected" facts that some people choose to back up their opinion that can be questioned.

I found the first reference very interesting but quite frightening though. I did read it all as you suggested. I found the second reference very difficult to follow - I guess that's because I do not have sufficient knowledge.

Don't worry BD - I have never had any intention of converting to Islam - no way! I am naive but I am not stupid. I have just been trying to figure out why and how people who proclaim "peace" as the primary focus of their faith can torture and murder others in the name of God/Allah.

My nieces are 12 and 13. They went to my mother this week in a very distressed state. They said: "Grandma, nearly every time we turn on the radio or the TV all we see is something about Muslims and terrorism. What will happen to us?" What a tragic way for young people to feel. They should be loving and enjoying life. Instead, they are scared. That is one of the main reasons that I have been trying to understand Islam and Muslim people. I would like to be able to answer my nieces' questions.

BD, I am a Christian - just moderate in my views.
Cheers

Hi Philo,

Apologies I wasn't aware you asked me a question elsewhere.
In Islam, sins are atoned by different ways in the Koran but the most common (obviousley there is the sacrifice as well similar to the jews) but the daily prayers, purify your intent and do good deeds and restrain from redoing the same sin.

'the five daily prayers to God cleans sins that happens in between'Prophet Mohamed (PUH).

Pilgrim, is another atonement (in our faith) that removes all sins and should mark the beginning of a new life.

Regards
AK