Hahah! Yes, my post was rather vitriolic, considering the only words that were mine were 'how do western muslims interpret these verses'- wow- hold back that hate! It also amuses me that Trinity assumes that I'm a Christian... just because I can quote the Qur'an accurately.

I'm quite happy to respond to verses in the Bible- and answer how Western Christians interpret them. So, anomie, I don't think that asking a Muslim to do the same is in any way hypocritical. However, considering that this is actually a forum topic about Western Muslims, I thought it would be a great chance to get some answers from people who know. But sure,let's have an open debate- why don't you go and actually find the references for the verses and events you quoted, so that I know that you have at least a little credibility. Maybe even start your own forum topic.

Apart from that... still waiting for the answers. Who's brave enough?

Got 'Em, Em. But dont ask for too much, I am still waiting for a list of peaceful Islamic countries that respect human rights. I can only think of a dubious two, Turkey and Malaysia.

'Fellow Human'

Sorry, but did you by any chance mean "Pickthall's" translation?
That was a pretty weak answer to Em. Surely you can do better than that. After seeing her post I was excited that maybe we would see some real debate,... afraid not. Could you see the dreaded 'God Botherer' getting away with that sort of response? Hmmm.

It also amuses me that a simple debate can be labelled 'hate' so quickly. Great way to attempt to shut down reasonable discussion... oh, but was that what you were wanting? silly me.

Not real good in the sarcasm department, then, Em? And isn't it a little presumptuous to be claiming to speak for western christians en bloc? For what variant can you speak? The unmediated word of god brigade, armed with a bible even they can read? Catholics - the mediated word of god and milennia of exegesis tendency? Or simply for yourself? Too lazy to look up the references for you, but will a PhD thesis dealing with scholastic theology establish that I might have some knowledge of matters religious?

Ash.... my goodness, you reallllly need a big shake.

You said 2 things which are VERY offensive and false.

1/ You want to justify your HATE.

Do you always equate 'reasoned dissagreement with' to = hate ?
To do so is not rational I'm afraid

2/ You spend all day 'RIDICULING' others beliefs.

This is ridicule "Thats stupid, your an imbicile for believing such tripe, its fairstories, bs etc" so, I presume you can SHOW me any such 'ridicule' in my posts ?

Now. fair is fair. I have not even on one occasion 'ridiculed' (show me ONE example) neither have I 'hated' unless you have no room in your heart for empassioned debate, all Em did is quote the Quran, is that 'hate' ? is that 'villification' ? err.. she didn't even add any comment. I surely hope Ash that you never teach your daughter that those who disagree with her 'hate' her.

JustDan.
I feel like inviting you for a coffee to take up the issues. *sigh*... The same principles of interpretation can be applied to the Quran and the Bible. Examples I've given of Paul "This is my OPINION" can only be interpreted one way "His Opinion" its not rocket science. The Quran "The believers SHALL.... can only be interpreted ONE way "They SHALL.... Sura 23:5-6 "be humble, only have sex with their wives and slave girls" etc .. Simple. Just like reading a book. Context, Context Context.

TAMMI.... thank you, a rational voice at last. (re me anyway)

ANOMIE, should we 'be afraid' ? :) No apols for the caps this time mate. sorry. If you are as educated as you claim, I hope you see the same thing Tammi does.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Exodus 21:2-4 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Deuteronomy 21:10-13 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, ... and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.

1Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.