Ash, I have not had a chance to respond to your earlier posting which asked a question "What is so frightening about us"

Well, fair question. Ok, depends on who you are I suppose. But read Waleed Ali's article about 'Islamic finance' and how our laws about Stamp Duty were changed to accomodate the 'no interest' aspect of Islam and so they can avoid paying 2 lots of Stamp Duty for 2 transfers of Title. Why try to change our laws ? why not just adjust to 'our law' as you find it. The ONLY reason the lobbyists sought to change it, is because it is in conflict with the "Law of Allah" as you see it. No pig farms next ?

Look at how the wishes of the Baulkam Hills community were bulldozed into the ground by appeal to a labor government in regard to the "Islamic Centre"

Look at how exemptions to burial laws have been made in Victoria 'specially' for Muslims.

Look at how one of our favorite foods (ham Sandwiches) was denied to 78% of the ratepayers of Hume Shire by suggestions of the Muslim Mayor (and a decision by Darryl Treloare the CEO)

Look at how branch stacking occurred in a labor seat in NSW by Muslims to influence the government policy on Israel through their candidate.

But the 'scary part is in the Islamic education syllabus, where it is spelt out that this is the 'medina' (weak and minority) phase of Islam in Australia, as opposed to the 'Meccan', where strength power grew.

The collusion between ICV and EOC via May Helou, the deliberate 'spying' on Christians and the court case, is a worry. (but the best medicine the 'church' has had for ages :)

So, its not your 'lifestyle' which is scary Ash, it is the political impact of people far in excess of their proportion of the population.
Its the discrimination perpetrated on the majority, by those with loud voices and small numbers.

and if you say I 'hate' you for outlining all these historical facts I'll not be a happy chappy

BD,

I think you are confusing accommodating ‘others’ and others ‘taking over’ and some people actions.

- First we (muslims) are not allowed to eat pig meat. I have never seen a reasonable muslim who will attempt to ban it for others. Muslims countries (I can at least count 9 that I am sure of) having nothing to do with pig or ham farmed/ served by non muslims.
- Same goes for us not dealing in interest: most muslims countries have both financial products. If you like at the ‘equity mate’ by some banks in Australia. That is a share risk share the reward. It is half way there!
- There are no phases in Islamic religion itself. There may be individuals trying to achieve some political gains maybe, but that is the same as any other religion/ non religion or even sexual preference based groups.
- Religious spying is neither Islamic nor Christian (explain how does when a muslim cleric says anything in a mosque it is all over the news and TV next day as well). Both are unethical practices.
- One topic I disagree with however is the Baulkham Hills incident: the question is why would you want to prevent a prayer place for a specific religion? To me it was a wake up call on the level of ignorance and lack of leadership both state and church.
- “sugar quoting” there is nothing in my faith to sugar quote: Islam for us provide a mix of religious belief, good human values and a social framework of how to deal and interact with others. These values are fixed and cannot be sugar quoted as no one has the right to tamper with or contradict the Koranic references. Your religious belief is fundamentally different because priest and religious people can shape the faith and invent / remove biblical terms: developing the Trinity, guide Christians which bible to read and not read, sold forgiveness deeds in medieval Europe, justified Jews blood during the Nazis period and finally allowing gay priests and marriages.
AK

Well B-D,
I think Deuc has assisted me… can you reconcile those quotes with your answer? I count at least 10 ‘shalls’. Feel free to discard these to old ideas, 'imagery', whatever you’d like to call it but the comparison is the same. I honestly do look forward to an explanation. I know the Qu’ran contains some feisty stuff but so does the Bible.

Now I know you mean well but it's folly really to argue the indefensible. I just don’t understand why any reasoning person, of any religious bent, cannot accept that faith is personal and that it is always a matter of choice. Feel free to discuss the choice but never (and I think I am safe here) state that another choice is wrong – because there is absolutely no evidence for this statement. Like you, I am a Christian – but I accept that others may believe differently. It doesn’t lessen my faith or strength of faith.

And just one minor point – you outlined your concern regarding changes to laws in favour of Muslims, stating that “why not just adjust to 'our law' as you find it” – well, cannot this also be argued of Christians going to Islamic countries? Sure they may be tougher or more totalitarian in nature but then, that’s the law as you found it. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

I do agree that perceptions of extreme Islam are concerning. However I think that this extremism is a by-product of the excesses and abuses heaped upon most of the Islamic countries by ‘Christian’ run ‘democratic’ nations such as the US. Poverty disenfranchises the people, who are easily led to an alternative that gives them some power. If Christianity could offer something to them, I’m sure they would have a look. However I think that Christianity has been tainted for a large number of the poor, specifically due to the influence of the western ‘democracies’. And the Christian extremism of the past has enough bodies to count that they should not be throwing stones at other faiths.

Cont...

Please, I don’t want anyone misinterpreting this last paragraph as a slight at Muslim nations or people. It should be seen as more damning of the western capitalist system, which has been highjacked by business and contains none of the moral or ethical traits of any Christian or other religious thought. ‘The Corporation’ is a good book on this topic (and being discusses in other threads on this site).

Fellow_Human,
Cont...

Thanks for the response. I would agree that the only faith I find doing any converting are Christian. I wonder why? And it is good that your children are being educated in a balanced way. Whether or not they choose your own faith or another is not the issue – whether they are good, moral and ethical people is all that matters, isn’t it.

And I STILL don’t have an answer from the Christians here – does Ghandi get saved, though he is not a Christian? And what is your take Fellow_Human – from an Islamic view?

Fellow Human: I found it interesting that you chose not to respond directly to my question, but instead chose number 38 of Schopenhauer's ‘38 Ways to Win an Argument’:
“Become personal, insulting and rude as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand. In becoming personal you leave the subject altogether, and turn your attack on the person by remarks of an offensive and spiteful character. This is a very popular technique, because it takes so little skill to put it into effect.” I’ll give you another chance.

Anomie: The great thing about this forum is that one is judged merely on the opinions they post, not on their qualifications. Since there is no way of verifying your honesty, we can only judge by the quality of your expressed statements.

As for you Deuc, thanks for your post. I’ll make this brief though, predominantly because I don’t want to hijack the forum topic on Western Muslims and bring it back to the endless discussion of Christianity. I’m sure that you are already aware, Deuc, that all but one of your verses are from the Old Testament, or more specifically, the Jewish Torah. Obviously these, once placed in context, are cultural and time specific references for the Jewish society. Can you point out for me where the modern Church practises any of these? As for the Titus reference, is this really that extreme? To be discreet, chaste, a keeper at home, good, and obedient to one’s own husband…I could think of worse things! Obviously the Bible speaks about the husband’s role in other areas (Ephesians 5:28 ‘So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies’.) If your interest is sincere, you will find a full discussion of the Titus verse, analysed directly from the Greek, at http://www.preceptaustin.org/titus_25.htm.

Ash says: “No one has the right to tamper with or contradict the Koranic references”…. very interesting. Again, how do you interpret the above Qur’anic verses in light of that statement?

Em,

First I do apologise for offending you. I have been coping with an amazing amount of ‘brotherly love’.
Second, you just came out of nowhere with half truth microwavable comments. You could have looked at each verse in the context and proper meanings interpretation. But don’t come in throwing dirt and expect red carpet. I am sure you have seen Women (4:1-198) in the Koran which talks about women/ wife right. You have also referred to narrated hadith: ‘best of you is best to his family’ and ‘no greater good deed than a man feeding his wife with his hand’.

BD,

Following on your logic comparing extreme to extreme, lets us explore the inquisitions (ie when Muslims and Christians were spreading their messages around the world). Muslims inquisitors offered conquered cultures 2 options if you they are not fighting: convert to Islam, or maintain your faith Christian/ Jewish and pay the Gizyah/ defence tax.
What was the option for Christian inquisitors: ulus in Africa, Red Indians, Aborigines, and Arabs in Spain? No choices. No one was spared even women and children.

You would ask which is more tolerant. For muslims even though fanaticism exists always, there are rights for others defined in the core that no man can touch. In your scenario it is the pope of the day and everyone follows.

BD, I have no doubt that you are sincere about your faith/ charity/ humanity. What I ask you is to look within. Begin with yourself:
- The churches collect all the money in the world from the faithful for charity, why the pope is wondering around in ‘everything made of Gold’ while most Latin American Catholics have been starving for decades?
- What is with the selective charity in Africa? Will save who are likely to convert and leave others.
- Why are you comfy with the charity priorities: ie the enthusiasm to help the Darfur brothers because they are sitting on a large natural gas reserves?
For us, we have our own crap to deal with, fanaticism, dictators, ..name it!

Peace my friends