Ash !

I think I should begin calling you 'brother' or 'comrade' or 'fellow pilgrim' :) because your post, was the clearest example of making my point and adding some exclamation marks that I could ever ask for. THANKS.

The point was, "There is an unbroken line of 'violent struggle' in Islam today, going back all the way to MOhammed and his companions' and your little sentence of "When Islam was strong enough to defend itself".... did all my work for me. 'Defend'.....how ? clearly, with weapons and invasions, and raids. This is not some remote caliph 300 yrs after your prophet, it is the prophet himself, and that is the 'well' from which the terrorists draw their spiritual water from.

For the sake of clarity, I am going to use some capitals now excuse me==> THIS DOES NOT... REPEAT NOT mean that 'All muslims are terrorists' in fact as has been pointed out, 'most' are peaceful.

Dan, and Laurie,

I won't say any more on that subject because Ash has done it for me. I hope you actually note the point we are at now, and I could have said all this without any reference to my own faith whatsover, and it would still be true.

I don't know if you guys are in any way searching, but I strongly recommend a reading of the book of Acts, and see exactly how the early church grew, its fascinating, and you may gain an insight for my own passion, and if the age of miracles has not ceased, a greater level of 'Tolerance' for my own position :)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=1&version=31

I have not seen you guys urging Ash to 'tolerate' me :) u just join in the chorus of condemnation. But its all good, and even though I seem to be the target of a considerable degree of the 'rough end of the verbal stick' from you guys, we are all thinking, our minds are opening, we are reflecting, in this I rejoice

BD,

My points are simple:
• To clarify to you that there is a legal? Juridical component: you cannot compare apples and oranges. I would have appreciated it if you said:” Ash, the legal punishment in Islam is harsh for certain crimes” but not label punishment as cruelty. That’s straight forward misleading.
• I was not there in the early days of Islam to judge why they were persecuted and what their other alternatives were with tribes coming to kill them. Neither were you when the time Constantine decided for all the empire to become Christians overnight.
• Through early history of Islam, there was no forceful conversion. Christian Copts in Egypt are still there until today. Yes they were taxed but never forced into another religion, prophet Mohamed married Maria (an Egyptian Christian) and his first wife Khadija family had some of the greatest Christian monks (who remained Christians).

BTW, whats with the ‘toletate you mean’? ‘toleroph’ is my middle name! I have nothing against you or your annoying websites :):) . All I am saying is you need to reach to your Muslim brothers and support them in their fight against terrorism and extremism. Every religion/ culture is bound for crisis and we are in this crisis now. We need support from the community and not ‘I hate all of you’ attitude.
Peace,

Ak

BOAZ_David, are you one of those christians caught up in the idea of been blessed when you are persecuted for Jesus and deal with that by seeking out "persecution"? I'm beginning to suspect so.

The reason Fellow_Human is getting a different response to yourself is that he is taking a very different attitude in his posts. I doubt that any of the non believers in this thread have any great love for Islam, rather we don't like the double standards you insist on using in this and other threads.

The Joshua reference was not a distraction, it was an example from your own scriptures (one of many) where innocents were slaughtered at the command of your religions founder. It is dishonest to point the finger at Islam for violence in it's scriptures and refuse to deal what is in your own cupboard. Unless you renounce the old testament, I guess I have not considered that you may not accept the god of the old testament as part of the same trinity as Jesus. You may be off the hook if you reject the OT, otherwise pointing the finger at Islam for scriptural attrocities leaves a number of fingers pointing at the bible.

R0bert

Rob, the events of Joshua, and all references to judgements in the Old testament, must be read in full context, historical and theological, and I hope you will go back and start at Genesis, and then go right through to the end of Deuteronomy. Then keep going to Revelation :)

Try to enter into the feeling of the life in those days, the mood, the cultural and historical ethnic/tribal atmosphere. See how humanity progessed from 'So and so the son of .... who then became a tribe then a country/nation.

I'm 56 and I am repeatedly amazed to my back teeth at the continual layers of depth which are to be found in these, and I'm not talking about cute devotional thoughts, I'm talking real life real world cultural aspects that I can immediately relate to, probably because of my wifes tribal background and her own culture with is so similar in so many ways.

Suffice to say, NO ONE who applies sound principles of understanding, that they would apply to every day life today, would ever think of using those events in any other way than to point to the specific judgement of God for particular reasons at a particular time, or, the defense of a nation. Extrapolating from those events to 'general principles, currently applicable' is just a no brainer, no legs, does not happen.

In contrast, the idea "The world and all that is in it belongs to Allah and his Messenger" is clear cut, definite, without ambiguity and has contemporaneous and current applicability. It was the belief in THAT truth which took the Islamic hourdes right up to Tours in France, where they were stopped by Gods grace.

When I look at the Crusades, the Colonial period, battles between so called Christian nations, I just goto one place, the New Testament, and I simply compare, Christ and the Apostles, their life and teaching, with the events under scrutiny. Its easy :)

"Suffice to say, NO ONE who applies sound principles of understanding, that they would apply to every day life today, would ever think of using those events in any other way than to point to the specific judgement of God for particular reasons at a particular time, or, the defense of a nation. Extrapolating from those events to 'general principles, currently applicable' is just a no brainer, no legs, does not happen."

So why is that fine for Christianity, but not for Islam or any other faith?!

The mind boggles.

Sound reasoning and point well made, Laurie.

I think the inconsistencies we here in this thread are what happens when someone's thinking is comfortably ensconsed in a cul-de-sac. Very difficult to see anything outside of the immediate, familiar and secure from such a limited vantage. There's a lot of this thinking around now; hence the growing audience amenable to fear messages (overt & the dog whistles), the emergence of "gated communities", etc etc.