NC,

Despite all you worldly-wise pretensions, you are very much a man of the medieval past.You are easily impressed by things that we in a liberal democracy see as ordinary and every day

You name drop << Leopold Weis an ex Jew>> and <<Willaim Pickthal>> et la and enthuse that this proves your religion is superior. *Lookie, lookie these people converted Islam* (for full effect, say in the voice of Eccles from The Goons http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tjHlFPTwVk)

There are likely an equal number of eminents who have left Islam --and there would undoubtedly be many more if they were free to choose-REPEAT: IF THEY WERE FREE TO CHOOSE!

We hear stories of conversion from one creed to another EVERYDAY it isn’t unusual it is ORDINARY. Yahweh Witnesses knocking on your door or Scientologists accosting you in the street will tell you similar EVERYDAY of the week (leastways in most Western domains were proselyting is permitted! )

If you really have faith your creed is superior
i) Remove the apostate laws (currently in almost all majority Islamic countries)
ii) Stop brainwashing you kids in Madrasahs and the like
iii) Stop intimidation of artists (ala Rushdie, Theo" van Gogh , Danish cartoons...
iv) Stop favouring Muslims over non-Muslims in Islamic domains
v) Come clean on your bloody history (so people like you get and proper grounding!)

And let Islam stand or fall on its own merits

Your condemnation of ISIS rings hollow since you seem to share most of their values and aspirations!

NC (continued)

<< nothing compares with the Atlantic slave trade in volume and brutality in the history of mankind. The accounts are in front to you as an open book >>
Of course you can read a thousand books about the Atlantic slave trade any day of the week. And if you attend any western uni that is all you’re ever likely to hear discussed. And if you look at the United Nations conference of slavery, again it will be all about the Atlantic slave trade. But that says more about Left-wing politics/influence than the reality.

I seriously doubt it will have a slightest effect on you . You have already shown a tendency to write off anything that doesn’t fit into your fairytale fantasy of Islam as “hateful stuff”” –but for what it’s worth:

-- “Historians estimate that between 650 and 1900, 10 to 18 million people were enslaved by Arab slave trade”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_tradeers

And then there's the Muslim Ottomans:

--“As late as 1908, female slaves were still sold in the Ottoman Empire.”
--“In Constantinople (present-day Istanbul), the administrative and political center of the Empire, about a fifth of the population consisted of slaves in 1609”
--“In the dev&#351;irme, which connotes "blood tax" or "child collection", young Christian boys from the Balkans and Anatolia were taken from their homes and families, converted to Islam”
--“Hundreds of thousands of Europeans were captured by Barbary pirates and sold as slaves in North Africa and the Ottoman Empire between the 16th and 19th”
--“The concubines of the Ottoman Sultan consisted chiefly of purchased slaves. The Sultan's concubines were generally of Christian origin.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

And then there’s the present day:
[MALI]
“Under the Islamists, blacks were exploited even more by the pink-skinned people,” said Roukiatou Cisse, a social worker with Temedt, a human rights group, referring to the Tuaregs and Arab Moors. “They told them, ‘We are with the Islamists. We are in power. We are the masters and you are our slaves. We will do what we want.’&#8201;”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/timbuktus-slaves-liberated-as-islamists-flee/2013/05/31/ea4d3e1a-c142-11e2-9aa6-fc21ae807a8a_story.html

...cont.

8.12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (Margin note. "with the message"): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
9.123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you; and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

4.95. Not equal are those believers who sit (Margin note. "at home") and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home): unto all Margin note. "(in faith") hath Allah promised good: but those who strive and fight hath He distinguished above those who sit (Margin note. "at home") by a special reward.

I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine:

1. When was it founded and by whom?
2. What were its borders?
3. What was its capital?
4. What were its major cities?
5. What constituted the basis of its economy?
6. What was its form of government?
7. Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?
8. Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
9. What was the language of the country of Palestine?
10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?
11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese Yuan on that date.
12. And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?
13. name the country where Islam has brought liberty, individual freedom and lasting peace?

Dot point answers 1-13 please.

Hi SPQR, great posts, but you missed a few things about the incompatibility of western civilisation and Islam

The Muslim concept that state and religion are inseparable, is incompatible.

The concept that husbands have a right to beat their wives, is incompatible.

The concept that Ecclesiastical law is pre eminent over secular law, is incompatible.

The concept that females are minors, and subject to guardian male control, unable to even leave the house, or enter into any contract, is incompatible to contemporary western concepts of female equality.

The concept that apostates and blasphemers should be murdered, is incompatible to western liberal thought.

The concept that women should have no say in whom they marry, and that a marriage can occur not requiring the consent of the woman, is incompatible to western ideals

The concept that homosexuality should be a capitol offence, is incompatible with western concepts of tolerance towards homosexuals.

The concept that allegations of rape must be validated by four male witnesses of Islamic faith is incompatible with western evidentiary jurisprudence.

The Muslim concept that a raped woman should be punished, is incompatible to western ideas.

The Muslim concept a man may marry outside of his faith, but that a woman may not, is incompatible to western values.

The Muslim concept that alcohol consumption should be proscribed, is incompatible with western traditions.

The concept that a man may divorce a woman, simply by reciting 'I divorce thee", three times, but does not give equivalence to women, is incompatible to western concepts of divorce.

The Muslim concept that males are filled with "uncontrollable lusts" and that women, by their behaviour and dress are responsible for keeping these lusts contained, and blamed for it if it occurs, is incompatible with western the concept that men are responsible for controlling their own sex drive.

The contemporary Muslim concept of marrying first cousins to keep property in the family, is incompatible to sensible genetic hygiene as practiced in the west.

The concept that it is right and valid for a religion to spread by military force, is incompatible to contemporary western thought.

Where is this debate drifting to?
Some are saying that Islam is incompatible with present times, some are fabricating Quran and then citing numerous paras from Quran to mask their fraud and some are saying outright that Muslims in general and Palestinians in particular are subhuman and therefore are a fair game.

Remember, what this forum set out to discuss? The atrocities unleashed in Gaza and the support of the brutal siege and holocaust of Palestinians with the cheers of the spectators of a Roman Colosseum as grass cutting? Yes that is the topic.

This argument that Muslims are ignorant, with inferior IQ and backwardness and therefore deserve to be exterminated is the same as practiced by some animals who cannibalize their fallen fellow animals; wolves do it snakes and some other animals do it.Nazis did it with Jews. Do we wish to see the humanity stoop to that level or rise to the level achieved by some other animals already, where the weak and sick are taken care of by others.
And this point of such and such being week or backward needs a look back; all have been through those phases; just a little sole searching is needed here.

Please stick to the topic and accept that Palestinians are fellow humans and need to be treated as equals. Or reject this notion and we can agree to disagree.
No diversions, no beating about the bush please.

SPQR,

Your repetition of misinformation establishes your objectives I have already discovered and stated, namely:

Objective I: Red Herring: Deflect attention from the main issue;

Objective II: Misquote Quran and the Muslim history to prove Muslims and by extension Palestinian to be so horrible that they deserve all brutalities unleashed upon them by your Israel. Your reasoning is same as the argument that the supporters of slave trade, holocaust and apartheid adopted for the justification of the atrocities.

On your Objective II, keeping in mind your attempts, my suggestion to the impartial readers would be to start with “Islam: A Short History “, by a British (non-Muslim) author- the present day authority on religious history – Karen Armstrong:

1. “Karen Armstrong’s short history offers a vital corrective to” the narrow view. ….”it demonstrates that the world’s fastest growing faith is much richer and more complex phenomenon than its modern fundamentalist strain might suggest” – text on the flap

2. Examining Islamic history from secular perspective, she makes many interesting observations that cannot be fully covered here. Will quote only 2 here for starters:

a. “The Quran gave women rights of inheritance and divorce centuries before Western women were accorded such status”, page 16;
b. On community built on practical compassion and fair distribution of wealth – “This was more important than any doctrinal teaching about God” – page 6.

In short, her books:

• Muhammad – A biography of Prophet;
• Islam – A Short History;
• A History of God – A 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam; and
• The Battle for God – Fundamentalism in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Provide a secular and comprehensive view of religion and its history including Islam.

A non-Muslim who has read any of the above books can see the malice and misinformation that SPQRs keep injecting in their posts.

Continued …..