CONTD

Given
1) that the brutal occupation of Palestine would not be possible even for a day without the ‘altruistic’ complete and total military support West provides to Israel
2) Israel’s illegal occupation and atrocities would not be possible without the complete diplomatic cover offered by the West
3) the ceaseless occupations of Muslim countries in the ME considered a threat by Israel under the pretext of ‘freedom and democracy’ by regular or irregular forces (ISIS, ISIL, the lot!)

There may be less loony explanations for this, “hatred”, as you put it, Muslims feel towards the West? It may have nothing to do with religion but everything to do with Politics?

Q: Can we at least entertain the thought (leave it as ‘work-in-progress’, no need to reach a resolution yet) that its not religion but real life geo-political issues behind this?

We can turn it into a chicken and an egg discussion as to what is an action and what is a reaction BUT I will just take YOUR statement, still yours, and JUST reverse the order
“The funny thing is, you people support ‘our enemies’ (read the illegal and brutal occupiers) and then wonder why we display hatred of you”
Are you willing to entertain the thought that the order of events you have set in your head may not be correct? Did the hatred come first or the brutal occupation and its support by the West? I am not saying if we reverse the order it absolves Muslims of all wrongs and places the entire blame in the West’s corner but are we willing to at least look for more plausible reasons?

“Give a man a reputation and he lives up to it!”, the constant vilification of Muslims day in and out in the media and in ‘everything mainstream’ really – do you also have a responsibility in meeting halfway by shedding some of your preconceived notions and biases?
I am guilty of harboring preconceived notions, biases which I MUST strive to see beyond and I hope my ‘fellow 4wd enthusiast’,you would at least entertain the thought?

Dear Jayb' you wrote:-

"McAdam: "out of base matters" as opposed to "what they know" I guess it a translation quandary............I may help you to understand English much better. "

Please do, please help me.
If it is translation quandary, then there must exist at least one copy of Quran, that carries your version of "translation". Please show me; I bet you can not, as there is none. You don't know that Quran is a book which is incorruptible.

Now dear Jayb, in the span of four days you had three different stands on this issue, you can not deny, as your posts are recorded on this thread; first you said the "base matters" version was correct, then you said, it was not you but some one else who did that and now again you take it upon yourself to help me understand that "base matters" version indeed is correct.

Does it occur to you dear Jayb why do you have to change your positions so frequently? Because you do not care if they are based on truth. Please see the truth. Please see the truth and embrace it; there would be no hatred, no remorse.

Now please get back to me only if you can produce the copy of Quran with your version of translation. Without that your statements would be of no value to me and I'll ignore them.

Best regards

NC,

OK. Let’s look in detail at your claims:
You say: << your quotes on Quran … was wrong >>
My quote (SINGULAR) was absolutely spot-on! The source was mistaken but the content was exact. And when I saw that the *source cited* was wrong I corrected it. You and McAdam acted like a couple of shonky lawyers defending a guilty client by trying to get him off on a technicality.

And then you tried a fudge: <<Hadith, a collection of verbal accounts… it is known to be a human effort that can’t be flawless.>> and when I challenged you with << Hadiths form a very important foundation to Islamic thinking & practice . Surely you are not going to try and sell me on otherwise!>>...what did you do?

YOU SIDE-STEPPED -- without the slightest acknowledgement!
________

Now to those some of those historic events. Your claim is worth quoting in full because it is such and excellent piece of waffle:
<<Historic events and their interpretations do have a certain level of subjectivity. But your quotes far exceed all the sensible boundaries, therefore they cannot be trusted>> Wow!

So here's the first: referring to the early 20th century you said << you search in Muslim history of a thousand years you will find the former to be greater than the latter by orders of magnitude>> When I pointed to the holocausts the Muslims invaders imposed on Hindus’ or the multiple holocausts the Muslim Turks or the holocausts imposed by the Islamic slavers...what did you do?

YOU SIDESTEPPED --no retraction--no apology
________

Instead you bought up the “diversions” like this: of the <<t nothing in human history compares with the Atlanta (sic) slave trade (1441-1840) in volume, exploitation and brutality>> And when it was pointed out to you that the largest, most long lasting and most brutal slave trade was the Ottoman/ Arab history ...what did you do?

YOU SIDESTEPPED --no retraction --no apology.

Nc (continued)

Now we have this in your latest post: When asked as to why there were no high profile figures criticizing or deconstructing Islam or Hamas in Hamas controlled territory you responded:

<<Why should be there one? - Palestinians are the oppressed. What should they say to Hamas? - don’t resist the brutes?>>

So you NC and your bully boys have judged that there is nothing to be said! Good of you to decide on everyone elses behalf.eh!

I am reminded of those “protesters” who raged through the heart our cities with placards like “Behead who insult the prophet!” because they didn’t like the film “Innocence of Muslims” And didn't want anyone else to see it. (and some of the apologists out there tried to tell us it was only a handful of extremists --NC doesn't consider himself an extremist, he even availed of the best Western education in a California university!)

And still you, NC, you are trying to tell us that your motive is human rights!

AND STILL, NOT A WORD FROM ANY OF TEAM ISLAMS CHEER SQUAD ABOUT ISIS!

Jayb,

Forget about arguing quote meanings with McAdam. There is a very good old adage: know the tree by the fruit it bears.

What do these countries have in common --apart from having Islam as the dominant religion?

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2014/05/PF_14.05.28_blasphemy-apostasy_apostasy640px.png

They have strict national laws again apostasy

Found it. Page 21, post 4. LEGO's Post.
My appologies LEGO, Hadi keeps saying it was my post.
Here is some Koran and Sura's for you.

Koran 70:39
We have created the unbelievers out of base matters.

Koran 98:1-8
The unbelievers among the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.

9:123: “O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the pious.”

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Sura (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

Posted by LEGO, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 6:52:24 PM

Margin notes are put there by Learned Mullars as a way to better understand the true meaning of the passage. You thought you'd get away with this. Didn't you Hadi?

Surahs.

70.38. Does every man of them long to enter the Garden of Bliss?

70.39. By no means! For We have created them out of the (Margin note. "base matter") they know!

70.40. Now I do call to witness the Lord of all points in the East and the West that We can certainly--

70.41. Substitute for them better (Margin note. "men") than they; and We are not to be defeated (Margin note. "in Our Plan").
Cont...