Keep in mind - Article 13 of Hamas‘ Charter states, “There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.” http://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/opinion/contributors/2014/07/28/hamas-seeks-destruction-israel/13275349/

"This pattern of manufacturing war to deflect internal tensions ... what they do achieve is a unified feeling of victimization and a break from the day to day state problems and government corruption."
Can we read the US into this equation? Consider the continuing wars on Islam of the past two decades. By all accounts these wars have prevented an easing of the impoverishment of what was once the world's most enviable middle class, and at the same time empowered the government in Washington DC to institute a surveillance (police?) state within that much vaunted 'homeland' just in case anyone starts to question the rational behind these wars and the negative impact they are having on the homeland's population.
And now there is the crisis in Ukraine brought to us by the very same masters of deception that brought us Iraq, Libya and Syria, among other nations within the Islamic Crescent. And this one has an assured future as it heads inexorably toward Russia.
And yet the public perception within the US, as gleaned from news reports through the times so far of both conflicts, is of the Stars and Stripes flying high from buildings and front porches as Americans rally around the flag and express vows of patriotic unity in the face of all those evil ones out to do them harm.
But they, like the deluded ones in Israel, just cannot or will not see that the real harm is coming from within the Beltway, or Jerusalem.

Junaid Cheema contines the Lefts crusade against Israel. And with an air of look-how-blood-thirsty-they-are he crys: "The Israelis call this cycle of violence 'cutting the grass'

No Junaid,*some* in the Israeli military *were said* to have made that comment.

But here’s the thing, if that is damning –where is Junaid & cos condemnation of this?

From the Koran:
"The resurrection of the dead will not come until the Muslims will war with the Jews and the Muslims will kill them; ... the trees and rocks will say, "O Muslim, O Abdullah, here is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

[Many similar examples can be found here http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/koran.html]

And, if you want something more recent:
“Later that February, AQI chief Abu-Umar al-Baghdadi declared Israel to be a religious state in which there is no difference between Judaism and Zionism. Both were ‘the core and origin of corruption’ Israel was ‘a malignant germ that has been planted in the body of the ummah that must be extracted” ’ [ Osama Bin Laden , Michael Scheuer , p158]

“”Several Salafis organisations have built training facilities in Gaza and displayed them in their media, defiantly proclaiming ‘We are coming, Jew!’ [ ibid , p159]

Elizabeth, why shouldn't Hamas and other Palestinian bodies have such clauses?

I am a good moral upstanding person and I therefore declare that since you aren't fully utilising your current place of abode that the next three immigrant families can be settled there. How would you feel about that? That is effectively what the Balfour declaration was saying that the Jews can return to the Levant. Pity the poor occupants who happen to life there and have for multiple generations.

Oh and I don't support Hamas and the various Religion of Peace groups. They are an abominable throwback to before the middle ages. On this point about their land they do have right on their side in my opinion.

I suspect that in the medium run, the new crusader city state known as Israel won't survive much past the end of US supremacy even with their nuclear weapons.

DKit

A realistic view of a tragedy of our times, well done Junaid. Wonder when humanity will open its eyes to see the real face of Israel.

During WW11, we were at war with an equally fanatical Nipponese army, who equally did not respect the Geneva convention, and had a wartime history, littered with innumerable atrocities; some against their own kind.
And if we had not dropped those bombs, the conflict could have continued to this day?
In fact, some Islands still had Japanese garrisons on them and who were prepared to fight to the last man and the last bullet, years after the conflict was officially over; and then use sword, bayonet and broomstick, for as long as breath remained!
Insanity personified Hamas remind me of those fanatical Japanese, still fighting yesterday's war, on their small Islands!
Like those fanatical Japanese, there is no way Hamas can win, unless they can involve others, and perhaps start WW111!

And if we could relocate all of Israel, to say a new Israel, in the largely uninhabited Northern WA?
Where their skill in turning deserts into gardens would be most useful and welcome, as would their military expertise and inventory, in an area, we can't currently defend, given the sheer length of our island continent coastline!

So, and to reiterate, if all the less than blameless Jews were gone?
And the land of Israel emptied out of them and their military might/inventory?
Who would Hamas fight then?
My bet is, these cold blooded murders, would find other targets and another reasons to continue to slake their compulsive blood-lust!
As happened in nearby, once completely peaceful Lebanon!
This being so, it not possible to make peace with them!
Albeit, it is possible to wipe them out, like the way we might eliminate vermin.
And on the same grounds as we dropped those atomic bombs, with their huge collateral damage, on the Japanese!
That being so, there is no way anyone can peacefully coexist with Hamas.
Sadly, given they continue to cower behind noncombatant, old men, women and children; and in schools, churches/Mosques and hospitals etc, elimination will involve considerable unavoidable collateral damage!
Were that there was any other choice!
Rhrosty.

How brave you are Junaid.

I hope your email address does not get spammed out of action.

I suspect it must suit the West to have the proxy in Israel to perpetualise the "instability in the Middle East". The once mighty empires might have departed but the "military-industrial" owners in the West must continue the tradition of prospering through the Middle East - our "civilisation" depends on it.

The Israeli governments since Rabin seem short sighted. The have abandoned the "values and integrity of Judaism" (Do not to others ...) according to Simon Schama in his TV series on The story of the Jewish people. Will an implanted military state last for ever?

Regrettably we have our own version of that sort of myth telling - with the boat people - these despicable queue jumpers who throw their children overboard, self harm to elicit sympathy, etc, etc. Since the Tampa of 2001 our political and cultural gladiators have succeeded in convincing the voters that they have only our interest at heart, and that we are in fact a compassionate, fair and generous nation. Never mind the hell hoes we purchase in basket case countries to wear down the mental state of those boat people put under seemingly indefinite detention.

Thank you so much for your perspective.

Cheema: In the city Sderot, local Israelis pulled up chairs at hill tops to watch the bombing of Gaza. The spectators took happy snaps, shared popcorn and cheered; as the Israeli Military cut the grass - dealing death on Gaza.

Yep that's what I'd do. Hamas is hell bent on destroying Israel totally, Men women & children. They cry foul when they are caught with their pants down. Hiding some 40 Rockets in two UN schools, firing Rockets from school & hospital grounds. Shooting from hospital windows. Hiding weapons of all descriptions in their houses with their wives & children present.

Are the wives & children OK with these arrangements? Yes, of course they are. It makes good propaganda TV for Hamas when the wives & children get killed & maimed. But just whose fault is it? No, not the Israelis. They surgically pick their targets to avoid casualties. Do Hamas do the same, No, Aim fire & forget. They don't care where it lands. Some 20000 Rockets fired from Gaza with the express purpose of killing civilians.

Are the children innocent? I don't think so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwtKsF7I5Nk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrW4_uxJvHQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08XsKJYcvfk

Junaid
I admire your courage in speaking out. I admire the intelligence you have shown in thinking for yourself. I admire your respect for humanity.

It is in stark contrast to the warmongers and their defenders. Well done.

Chek; " How brave you are Junaid"

imajulianutter; " Junaid, I admire your courage...I admire the intelligence you have shown...I admire your respect for humanity (can I ask you out on a date? whoops, sorry, no Ima.. did add that last bit -- but it fitted in so well)

What rot! LOL
I'll wager that all they ever talk about around the water cooler down at the community worker collective is how bad Israel was/is --it would have taken courage for Junaid NOT to have toed the party line.

We SPQR are talking about it in the pub, at our cafes and other community venues whereas you people are only regurgitating what you are told to by your propaganda factories.

imajulianutter

<<We SPQR are talking about it in the pub...>>

Do a Google on the author and suss out his background--I could be wrong--but I rather suspect you wont be seeing him in any pub ....unless it be drinking orange squash.

As I see it, there are three issues here that I am trying to grapple with - the horror of what Israel is doing to the Gazan people, the total impunity with which Israel does it, and the pathological cognitive dissonance used to justify what Israel is doing.

Each of the three issues really does my head in. All three combined just leave me no choice but to shut down and stop thinking about it - at least for a few minutes.

SPQR

Well, if Ima doesn't ask Junaid on a date, I just might. Apart from him being rather cute (am I allowed to say that?), at least I know the conversation would be a cut above many a date I've had.

Rhrosty

Nice to see you in fine armchair-bomber form again with the putrid prose about nuking the Hamas vermin like we did those evil Japs. As for transplanting Israel to WA, I'd be all for it, just to give those poor wretched Gazans some respite from the terror of having the crap bombed out of them every couple of years and maybe give West Bank Palestinians a chance to finally get their homes back. However, if we put Israel in WA, there's a good chance that Australia might look like this in 60 years time (just ask an Aborigine).

http://canadianboycottcoalition.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/map_postcards-coalition.jpg

Killarny: I'd be all for it, just to give those poor wretched Gazans some respite from the terror of having the crap bombed out of them every couple of years and maybe give West Bank Palestinians a chance to finally get their homes back.

For about a week, then they'd end up like the rest of the Middle East. Bombing, Shooting, Beheading & Stoning the $#it of each other anyway. They love it. They've been at it for 5000 years. The problem then they would have no one to blame.

A passionate plea by Caroline Glick, in which she describes the awful twisting of the truth in western media and political circles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgwmerQYndo

What!?

America gives Hamas 47 millions Dollars to replenish it's depleted Rockets & Arms supplies(Oh, sorry, Aid for the people)? Strange.&#65279;

@sqpr; you are the perfect Israeli supporter - can you provide a ref to the Quranic passage you quoted as the basis of your argument? You can't! Because it doesn't exist in the Quran! Either you are ignorant or a blatant lier that is vilifying an entire religion so you can shamelessly justify genocide based on a lie. That's all your argument is, a lie! Any normal human with a conscious would take this opportunity to self reflect but you won't because you are not a normal human being with a conscious.

@jayb
You are admitting to taking pleasure in watching little children die as quoted by you - you don't need a response, you need a cell for the criminally insane!

The author rejects the "popular headlines" that state the fact that Israel responds to the continuous provocation, in the form of rockets, from Gaza. Yet clearly it is not Israeli violence that triggers Gaza response, it’s the other way around. A reminder that Israel pulled out of Gaza nearly a decade ago, only to be faced with an endless barrage of rockets from the territory following the pull-out. Is that not provocation?

He also chooses to ignore the numerous cease fire offers recently made to Hamas, only to be rebuffed.

The human shield factor he casually dismisses is the insistence of Hamas to place weapons and fighters within civilian installations, schools, mosques and apartment buildings. Rockets have already been discovered by UNRWA in schools several times this month. Are you trying to tell me there is no better place in Gaza to store one's rockets than the local schoolyard?

While I do not place any politician above doing whatever it takes to win the next elections, the Israeli elections are not due for another 3 years. It does not seem plausible that winning the elections in 3 years' time was driving the decision to respond to the Hamas violence this month. A lot can change in 3 years.

It seems that the author has never read the Hamas charter. 'Peaceful' Hamas was established in the 1980s with the expressed aim of replacing Israel (not just Palestine) with an Islamic state. Suicide bombings on civilian targets were the bread and butter of Hamas since the early 1990s. 'Tunnelled vision'? Not so.

And finally, the comment by Ayelet Shaked, which, according to her, was mis-translated and taken out of context, pales in comparison to the "poison being brewed" in the Palestinian territories on a daily basis through religious sermons, children's programs and every other aspect of life in Palestine. The locals are indoctrinated and trained to hate Jews, kill them whenever they get the chance. Clips from Palestinian TV demonstrating this systematic teaching of hatred can be easily found on the Internet.

the Hypocracy: You are admitting to taking pleasure in watching little children die as quoted by you - you don't need a response, you need a cell for the criminally insane!

Obviously you are a Hamas supporter. Do you think it's OK to spend all the Aid money Hamas gets for it's people on Rockets, Mortars, Suicide vests, Weapons & Tunnels? I guess you do.

Do you think it OK to have Special Holiday Camps & have TV programmes for Children telling them to kill the Infidel, in Kindergarten!? I guess you do.

Do the Israeli have these camps & TV Programmes for their children? NO.

Enjoy the Video's. O Hypocrite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwtKsF7I5Nk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrW4_uxJvHQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08XsKJYcvfk

Some of my best mates drink kosher alcohol. lol You do make a fool of yourself here SPQR.

Killarney
Go for it. I have a tall blue eyed blond headed Aryan amazon for a girlfriend. She drinks through guilt, but we both wish the world good.

JAyB you know in this country what you just said could see you hauled before our courts. It is discrimination and incitement at it's worst. But of course you are in Israel where it is okay.

And mate it is the Jewish religion which is about 5000 years old and yes they have been at that vindictive behaviour for that whole time.
Islam only dates from about 500 AD. ie After the death of our Christian god. And came out of one of the lost Israelite tribes. As usual inaccurate with your facts or just plain dumb. Ask yourself.

And Israel is utterly dependent on the US for it's existence. Mate the US tire of overseas wars fairly quickly. Keep up the war on GAZA and you'll find that out soon enough. What then mate? Nuke everyone?

elizabeth4

'A passionate plea by Caroline Glick, in which she describes the awful twisting of the truth in western media and political circles.'

I put up with this woman's shaky-voiced rage and teeth gnashing until the point about how 'Israelis didn't get their country back after 2,000 years of exile only to have it destroyed'. Excuse me, but whose country did the Israelis 'get their country back' FROM?

Most of her diatribe was not at the terrorists (who are, by standard imperial-speak definition, anyone Israel beats up on and dispossesses and terrorises and bombs and shoots and invades and throws into prison for looking sideways at an Israeli checkpoint).

No, the woman's rage was firmly directed at the US for daring (as she sees it) to falter in its steadfast commitment to Israeli expansionism by daring even to think about negotiating with Hamas about a ceasfire.

Ms Slick ... I mean Glick ... Weren't the 29 standing ovations in Congress to Bibi Yahoo's magnanimous appearance before them enough to know that the US's grovelling loyalty to Israeli expansionism is not going anywhere anytime soon?

Avw

'[The author] also chooses to ignore the numerous cease fire offers recently made to Hamas, only to be rebuffed.'

And were you paying attention Avw? Did you happen to hear the condition they kept making?

Let me remind you ... to lift the SIEGE of Gaza.

You know ... that medieval siege of Gaza, that Israel has been enforcing for nearly 10 years - within a wider expansionist ghetto-isation of the entire Palestinian population!

No. In Israel's boundless US-backed arrogance, the idea that these wretched, dispossessed, vanquished, isolated and terrorised people would dare to make an actual demand, based on their dignity and rights as human beings, is too much for Israel to bear.

How dare they! No getting down on their knees and begging for Israel to stop hitting them? No desperate promises of 'We'll be good and stop firing rockets, Mr Netanyahu, Sir'.

Don't these wretched un-people know their place?

Jewish donors prominent in presidential campaign contributions.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-donors-prominent-in-presidential-campaign-contributions/
Sheldon Adelson’s culture of hate
If anyone said about Jews what the American Jewish billionaire says about Palestinians, he’d be considered a Jew-hater in the same league as Farrakhan and Ahmadinejad.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.583402

@ Killarney,

<<if Ima doesn't ask Junaid on a date, I just might>>

Don't get your hopes up deperate and dateless--I'm not sure he is permitted to date infidels
________________

@theHypocrisy.

<<the Quranic passage you quoted...doesn't exist in the Quran>>
Oh yes it does old fellow-- along with a lot worse.
Better do some reading up on your religion,eh!

@spqr
You still haven't provided a reference - do you have any shame?!?!? You are living proof of what's wrong with this world.

@SPQR

Quote the verse. Every sentence in Quran is quotable and easily verifiable. Knowing that you did not quote, because you know it is NOT there. Still you keep repeating the lie. What are you?

TheHypocrisy & NC

Apologies. The quote I gave wasn’t from the Quran –it was a Hadith, which are reports of the teachings, deeds and sayings of the Muhammad.

Here it is again:
Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him.
And here’s a Islamic website that verifies it: http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=41&translator=2&number=6980

And here is another with the same theme:
Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

So what say you now ?

@SPQR
So, you have finally admitted that you wrongly quoted Quran TWICE.

Hadith, a collection of verbal accounts of generations collected about 150 years after the death of the Prophet have their critics even within Muslims. Followed primarily as explanation of Quran for prayers and legal interpretation, it is known to be a human effort that can’t be flawless.

Now assuming that you will not jump at words and keep repeating your unsupportable stand, I understand that you are also aware of the Jewish religious commands which, as (also) observed by Karen Armstrong, are far too violent in nature compared with all other religions.

Coming back to Quran, it does not contain what you tried to assign to it.

And finally, although I had to say the above for explanation, your religion vs my religion is not a good discussion, and I suggest you focus on the issue in the background of history and universally accepted moral principles.

Thank-you Junaid for highlighting the reality of what's really happening in Gaza.

I am gobsmacked at the extent of the inhuman and atrocious dealings of the IDF. Hearing about the most recent strike on a crowded market during ceasefire and the shelling of sleeping children at a school just makes me want to vomit.

Then to try and justify the killing of innocent children and civilians by blaming the Hamas...Are you *#@!*^& SERIOUS?

What's happening in Gaza is outrageous and unjustifiable.

Accountability and justice MUST be served!!

Agreed Junaid and well said.
As the world watches and sits back in there comfy chairs/homes, Gaza is getting bombed. Nothing looks to be offlimits to these bloodthirsty israelís with the bombing of schools, hospitals, there only power plant. Bombing kids playing on the beach is so low let alone a hospital full of injured civilians.

Killarney:
As you might have already guessed, I'm a former soldier.
And as a former soldier, would return fire, with considerable interest, if and when fired on!
And no, there was never any pleasure in it, for someone trained and dedicated to saving people.
And no, at no time in any post, have I advocated nuking Gaza.
As usual, the first casualty of war is the truth, and reading your posts and the quite blatant verbals you appear to engage in, you are a prime example, of the first casualty!
I would however, use a few dozen bunker busters on it, if only to completely destroy the tunnel network, Hamas is using, in its endeavor to maximize casualties; in its own war on noncombatant civilians, its primary target!
What would you have the Jews do, open up their borders, to allow the daily dozen or so suicide bombers, or just not return fire when fired upon?
Or stop shooting down Hamas's rockets, which given still intact warheads, can and do explode, wherever they fall.
As one well known Philosopher would have said, the sun shines equally on the innocent and guilty.
And no, the nuclear bombs dropped by the allies was not the worst thing they could have done!
When they could have carpet/fire bombed Tokyo, and caused 100 times more innocent casualties; given Tokyo, was largely constructed of bamboo and paper, and once a wildfire was started, it couldn't have been stopped.
Hamas seem only able to focus on the Israeli response to their rockets; and have in just the last conflict, broken three ceasefires!
My problem with the madness personified that is Hamas; is, the Arab population only need keep their heads down and remain peaceful, and in just a decade or so, will outnumber the Jews in Israel as a voting demographic!
And that being so, control Israel, its military and inventory.
Compared to the entire course of total human history, a decade is but a quickly passing second or two!
Rhrosty.

NC,

<<Hadith..a human effort that can’t be flawless>>

Despite your ducking and weaving Hadiths form a very important foundation to Islamic thinking & practice . Surely you are not going to try and sell me on otherwise!

Further, if we are permitted to speak in terms which would see us hung drawn and quartered in most (Hadith respecting) Islamic polities -- ALL holy writings are the result of human effort & fantasy -- and flawed.

<< your religion vs my religion >>
No, NC, it is not the case of your religion versus my religion since I don't hold to any religion. I know that because I haven't swallowed the Leftist-Islamic Axis line about Israel you have (knee-jerked like) stereotyped me as a Jew, but I assure you it aint so. I have as many issues with exclusive rights for the Torah's chosen people as I have with that other chosen people that go under the title of the Ummah. But at least the Torahs chosen only claim exclusivity in the fertile crescent --the Ummah claim exclusivity where-ever they get the numbers!

<<I suggest you focus on the issue in the background of history ...>>
LOL .Even if we focus on history Islam is flawed, boasting one of the most bloody histories on record --and Hamas and co are doing their darndest to uphold that proud tradition (aided and abetted by one-eyed supports like you).

I suggest you read a bit more widely and start thinking outside the book!

nuts: JAyB you know in this country what you just said could see you hauled before our courts. It is discrimination and incitement at it's worst. But of course you are in Israel where it is okay.

No, nuts I'm in Australia. Australian, through & through. I must have hit a nerve somewhere. I guess the truth hurts & those committing atrocities' like Hamas supporters don't like the fact broadcast.

Just in case you missed them here they are again & some more to boot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKv2GGw7f4M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr7-gwZ7Ils
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIBNRVgq59Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3c5uWIDBXY

What is Palestine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9ReF4UUa4E

history facts on Israel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTDPRtprKJQ

killarney: the horror of what the Israel is doing to the Gazan people, the total impunity with which Israel does it,and the pathological cognitive dissonance used to justify what Israel is doing.

Let me rewrite that.
The horror of what the Gazans are doing to Israeli people, the total impunity with which the Gazans do it, and the pathological cognitive dissonance used to justify what Hamas is doing.

It cuts both way Killarney. The total aim for Hamas is to destroy Israel & kill all its people. That's women, children & all. Didn't Golda Meir say, "we'll stop kill Palestinian children when they learn to love their children more than they hate us." Referring to the Palestinian practise of using children as human shields.

jb: What!? America gives Hamas 47 Millions Dollars to replenish its depleted Rockets & Arms supplies (Oh, sorry, Aid for the people)? Strange, Why?

No reply on this at all from our incumbent Jihadist supporters here. Junaid, dkit, NC, Chek, Nuts, Eren, Peacefulpeace.

@ jayb Your paranoid sociopathic comments describe your sick mental state. I don't support the killing of children therefore I must be a Hamas supporter? Shame on you!

"Do the Israeli have these camps & TV Programmes for their children? NO."

No they just say picturing dead Arabs makes them happy, while they play around with tanks and guns. Sponsored by IDF show and tell sessions. Here is a link, if you manage to pull your head out - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp67KehlVGU

Which world do you live in and who let you out of me mental institution?

This article punctures a hole the size of the Milky Way through the dominant narrative peddled on the mainstream news media and the key official world forums about

a) 'little miss Israel' being victimized, terrorised and provoked by the big, bad and black 'spider' called Hamas.
-> "There have been continuous casualties nearly every month since the turn of the millennium with a heavily lopsided ratio........So how is provocation possible, if there is no real cessation in violence?"
-> "So when the sound of the war machines briefly stop, the shrieks of the giant constructions machines start, building new (Israeli) settlements on shattered Palestinian lives"

b) the 'innately violent' nature of the Palestinian 'provocateurs' hell bent on creating carnage and mayhem who will find another excuse to fight and kill once the Israel-Palestinian issue is resolved

-> "One can't help but wonder if the children of the original peaceful Intifada can grow up to be Hamas, what will the children of Israel's bloody Neo-Coliseum become?"

Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is

-> "Silent grass sits even lower than insects on the food chain, an analogy into the plight of the Palestinians - no one hears no one cares"

Muslims all over the world owe it to themselves and to the poor Palestinians, to NOT be defined by the ‘identities’ being constructed for them, that complement the dominant narrative i.e. ISIS, ISIL, AQIM to name a few

Humans all over the world owe it to themselves to not let these efforts to dehumanise an entire populace succeed and see this conflict for what it truly is, about the 'right' of the Zionist state of Israel to grow with absolutely impunity and mow down anything and anyone that comes in the way.

Here is a recent report from the ABC about the latest UN school to be bombed in the Gaza strip with more pictures of Benjamin Netanyahu's “telegenically dead”.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-31/gaza-school-shelling-in-quotes/5637522

“Ladies and gentlemen of the press, dear friends, sometimes you run out of words. We have received with shock and dismay the news of the bombing this morning of a UN designated shelter.”
UN deputy secretary-general Jan Eliasson

“This morning, yet another United Nations school sheltering thousands of Palestinian families suffered a reprehensible attack. All available evidence points to Israeli artillery as the cause. Nothing is more shameful than attacking sleeping children ... It is outrageous. It is unjustifiable. And it demands accountability and justice.”
UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon


My God! When are our weak kneed, sycophantic government going to stand up and demand an end to this? I have already rung my local member and asked them to urge their leaders to do the right thing and condemn what is happening to the people of Gaza. I invite OLO readers to do the same. It has to stop.

If Brandis wants to play with the terminology of occupied over disputed or Bishop wants to call people like me, those who support a blockade of Israeli products being sold in Australia, anti-Semitic then so be it. But you are my nation's representatives and for you to remain silent when such atrocities are being inflicted on the children of Gaza shames me and my country.

Do your job!

I believe The Hadith quoted by SPQR is correct and quite well known, as in many cases to understand something requires us to look at the context and have the intention of seeking the truth , for those who seek the truth seek God and they will not be forsaken.
The Hadith is talking about the signs of end of time, the companions of prophet Mohamad ( peace be upon him) were curious as to when the end of time is, they knew that it is to remain a mystery, so they asked about the signs of it's coming ,that explains the start of the Hadith " the hour will not be established until...".
The Hadith is foretelling the future that will occur rather than instructing the Muslims to kill Jews.
If we look at the interpretation of the Hadith ,the "Jew "mentioned is a combatant soldier taking cover ( as they do in skirmishes), not a civilian (as it is against the teachings of Islam to kill civilians, otherwise the whole Muslim world would of joined Alqaeda),the rest of the Hadith implies that all creatures will want their reign to come to an end,
This compels us to think , what atrocities did these people commit to deserve that ? I guess time is revealing this,one ugly stage at a time.
It's sad to see people justify one genocide with another and stereotyping their enemy so that it's easier to hate them and justify the killing of the innocent.
whether you say all Jews are Zionist oppressors or that all Muslims are terrorists, you are just as guilty as each other, as for those that claim moral high grounds by not belonging to any religion , they are but cowards that take shots at every opportunity, as they themselves have no clue nor do they intend on seeking the truth.

@SPQR

Thanks for sharing “some” information on your background.

1-Assuming you to be an atheist, and knowing that some of you try to wrap logic around your position in a failed attempt to show that yours is not a “faith”, respecting your faith I will re-frame my earlier statement that my faith vs your faith is not a good topic of discussion. It is particularly so in the context of the point in discussion as it diverts the focus

2- A perplexing question still remains, how come a purely religious claim on others’ land by Israelis exclusively because their religious book says so attracts a passionate supporter who professes no religion. Is there something more in your background?

3- Palestinians’ reaction to the occupation of their land, farms and businesses is ONLY human. Any group of people in the world would resist the occupation – irrespective of their faith or culture. You toe the Israeli line when you try to divert attention from the CAUSE. Is there something more in your background?
4- You have touched history in a general statement on (Islam’s) one of the most bloody histories on record. Your contention can be examined in any detail with the help of verifiable historic records today. To begin with:
a. Look at the war causalities in a short span in three decades in WWI and WWII and then add up deaths that you search in Muslim history of a thousand years you will find the former to be greater than the latter by orders of magnitude – What say you now?
b. Among many (and I mean many) instances, I suggest you to look at the 100-year war between Protestant England and Catholic France. Other instances are too many even to be summarised for this discussion- and I will, if you have the patience and the apatite.

My friend, human history is not bloodless. Seeing blood only in Muslim history is an attempt to hide the CAUSE of the tragedy in question – a typical strategy of the aggressors - Is there something more in your background?

France's Jews Flee As Rioters Burn Paris Shops, Attack Synagogue
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/22/france-jewish-shops-riot_n_5608612.html
German police arrest teen after attack on synagogue
http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-Features/Assailants-attack-synagogue-in-western-Germany-369284

Palestinian Tragedy is indeed the biggest tragedy of our times, and the whole world needs to focus on this problem to solve it. However until the US and the West stops backing Zionism this problem will not be solved. Add to this the slavery of almost entire Muslim world (except Syria and Iran), every one can see that this problem is far from being solved for another few decades.

Well written article by Junaid. No amount of argument can hide the naked Zionist aggression towards a small group of helpless people.

Killarney:

Once again, you change the order of events to suit your theory. The Israeli "siege" of Gaza as you call it only came about as a result of Hamas violence, not the other way around. The violence needs to end first before any restrictions are lifted. In any case, how can it be a siege if Israel does not control all Gaza borders? Check Google Maps to study the geography of the region before calling it a siege (or look up "siege" in any good dictionary).

It also seems it is you who are not paying attention. The first cease fire offer flatly rejected by Hamas came not from Israel, but from Egypt, a fellow Arab country. It was not full of "[Israeli] conditions they kept making", but an Egyptian proposal.

You keep going on and on about the "wretched, dispossessed, vanquished, isolated and terrorised people". Yet no one is saying that the problem is with the Gaza civilians. The problem is the murderous movement called Hamas. As long as you and others like you keep supporting them, the people of Gaza will continue to suffer under their rule, and peace in the region will remain a distant dream.

Hypo: @ jayb Your paranoid sociopathic comments describe your sick mental state.

Thanks.

Hypo: I don't support the killing of children therefore I must be a Hamas supporter? Shame on you!

Sounds like a reasonable statement, given Golda Meir comment.

"Do the Israeli have these camps & TV Programmes for their children? NO!
Hypo : No they just say picturing dead Arabs makes them happy, while they play around with tanks and guns. Sponsored by IDF show and tell sessions.

Fair enough. So it's OK for Hamas to run around in their Green & Black firing their weapons, screaming, "Death to the Jews." & teaching their children Is good to kill Jews.

Thanks for the link. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp67KehlVGU. One of many great Videos

Hypo : Which world do you live in and who let you out of me mental institution?

Sorry, I live in the real World & I've never been to Gaza.

Hadi: Muslims all over the world owe it to themselves and to the poor Palestinians, to NOT be defined by the ‘identities’ being constructed for them, that complement the dominant narrative i.e. ISIS, ISIL, AQIM to name a few.

I agree Hadi. Unfortunately, those groups, when they take control "demand" that Good Muslims follow their line or be killed. They, then are more than happy to do so. Even Moderate Muslims demand, of the Infidel, all over the World, that Sharia Law MUST be recognized as the ONLY Law, or else.

Steelredux: This morning, yet another United Nations school sheltering thousands of Palestinian families suffered a reprehensible attack. All available evidence points to Israeli artillery as the cause. Nothing is more shameful than attacking sleeping children .

Hi Steelie, still waving the black Flag I see. The UN School. Is that the one that Hamas had a "Misfire" with one of its Rockets they were firing from the School alongside those seeking shelter. I wonder how many Rockets they had stored at that school. I believe the total number of UN schools Shelters found storing Rockets is three now. Why are Hamas storing Rockets in UN School Shelters?

Holocaust and apartheid have been two of the most shameful acts in human history. It is surprising that their magnitude came to be felt by future generations while the contemporary humans tolerated them as legitimate government acts. Ever wonder, what kind of callous and spineless generations were those? Please look in the mirror!

We are witnessing a side granted right to bomb indiscriminately and the other side being denied right to take shelter. The Palestinians are subjected to apartheid and holocaust simultaneously and the world is silent. I wonder how would we be viewed by the future generations of human beings?

Jayb
Australian eh?

Then show the guts we Australians have and reveal yourself.

Keith Kennelly.

NC,

<<Assuming you to be an atheist… I will re-frame my earlier statement that my faith vs your faith>>
Well , you would be wrong again. I like to consider myself a Possibilian.It does not require faith, only an open mind (if your faith permits have a read of this: http://www.possibilian.com/)

<< how come a purely religious claim on others’ land by Israelis exclusively because their religious book says so attracts a passionate supporter.>>
Less passionate support than a passionate distaste for the tactics of the otherside. HAMAS and such groups have a history of deception. They have adopted a practice of whatever it takes. They openly admitted to using their population as shields (though some apologists here trying to market them to a Western liberal audience want to cover it up) they have used ambulances as troop transports, they have used Mosques to hide weaponry or shoot from. You name it they tried it on.

<<Palestinians’ reaction to the occupation of their land, farms and businesses is ONLY human.>>
I suspect that your support for “the Palestinians” has less to do with human rights and all to do with you packlike loyality to your tribal group . When you tribal group is dishing it out you are silent. But you couch your support in the language of human rights to con the naïve.

And Just so we know where you stand does you definition of “occupied land” include the whole of Israel or only those territories they acquire after they defeated the Arabs version of Operation Barbarosa in 1967?

NC (cont)

<< Look at the war causalities in a short span in three decades in WWI and WWII and then add up deaths that you search in Muslim history of a thousand years you will find the former to be greater than the latter by orders of magnitude – What say you now?>>
I say BULLSHITE! You are a typical adherent of the “religion of peace” you know all about the plank in your brothers eyes but can’t see your own.
-- Hindu sources estimate the death toll of Islams attempt to stamp out Hinduism in the subcontinent & implant islam at least 60 million!.
-- Muslim Turkey ethnic cleansing of the Armenians runs to well over 1,500,000 murdered & untold numbers of Greeks from places like Smyra
--Islamic invaders waged war to convert or enslave Africans up until very recently (& the Islamic slave trade was the biggest in history-buthow many have heard of it?).
--And if you read "Confessions of a Mullah Warrior" its author Masood Farivar records how the Afghan faithful would pillage and rape the local infidels for sport up until very recently.
[and that is far from all of it!]

The lucky thing for people like you is that little of Islam’s atrocities are exposed in regular history studies . And to even allude to them will bring cries of Islamophobia from you and your bosom buddies on the Left.

Islam is like a contract with a whole lot of nasty little subclauses that the party you are contracting with assures you they will never invoked.

And since we are holding a tell and show session how about telling us what mosque are you imam of?

Mc Adam,
There's no such thing as genocide or "holocaust" are three times as many Palestinians alive today as there were in 1948.
The term genocide is a word invented by Jews to serve the Zionist cause.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=db7_1230641059

"This view is echoed by another Jewish scholar, Tony Judt, who is director of the Remarque Institute at New York University:"

"The Shoah [Hebrew term for Holocaust] is frequently exploited in America and Israel to deflect and forbid any criticism of Israel . Indeed, the Holocaust of Europe's Jews is nowadays exploited thrice over: It gives American Jews in particular a unique, retrospective ‘victim identity'; it allows Israel to trump any other nation's sufferings (and justify its own excesses) with the claim that the Jewish catastrophe was unique and incompa­rable; and (in contradiction to the first two) it is adduced as an all-purpose metaphor for evil -- anywhere, everywhere and always -- and taught to schoolchildren all over America and Europe without any reference to context or cause. This modern instrumentalization of the Holocaust for political advantage is ethically disreputable and politically imprudent."

SPQR
The problem for you is that you are justifying Israel atrocities by pointing out the atrocities of others. Often those others are not involved in the Palestinian's affairs and none lay any sort of claim to a civilized philosophical basis to their often barbarous regimes.

Israel on the other hand claims to be aligned to the west and claims to adopt western democratic liberalism.
Sadly it has a philosophical basis which mirrors those regimes you criticize.

Israel is not western nor liberal. It is barbaric and is based in a philosophy of vengeance . It always seeks violence instead of seeking peace.

Western Liberal Democracies are based in a philosophy of forgiveness and seek peace.

Of course we in the west allow defence and employ deterrent and violence but we are prudent in its use and have adopted the Geneva Convention to limit excesses.

Israel doesn't.

Ima...

<< you are justifying Israel atrocities by pointing out the atrocities of others>>

1) Firstly, I didnt use the attrocities of others to justify anything. I was responding to NC's claim that Islam was an embodiment of all that was good and pure.

2) Secondly, if your source for any attrocities is HAMAS (or Hezbullah et la) or any of their campy followers who go by various names, I give them absolutely zero credience. HAMAS et la are playing you guys for all it's worth.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/students-offered-scholarships-for-proisrael-posts-on-social-media-30462518.html
<<
In a campaign to improve its image abroad (LOL), the Israeli government plans to provide scholarships to hundreds of students at its seven universities in exchange for their making pro-Israel Facebook posts and tweets to foreign audiences

The students making the posts will not reveal online that they are funded by the Israeli government, according to correspondence about the plan revealed in the Haaretz newspaper.
>>

Please let us not embarrass SPQR by asking more about his background and his motivation for the increasingly incoherent ramblings aka posts, he may well be trying to secure funding for the next semester

@ Hadi,

QUOTE: <<Hadi *A Quranic* Name for Boys --- Short meaning of Hadi: Guide, Guided and Guidance>> ;)
http://quranicnames.com/hadi/

Nuff said --guess whose payroll Hadi's on,eh

Hadi: In a campaign to improve its image abroad (LOL), the Israeli government plans to provide scholarships to hundreds of students at its seven universities in exchange for their making pro-Israel Facebook posts and tweets to foreign audiences.

Big deal. Universities everywhere do exactly the same. Of course, you could go to a Hamas University & learn how to kill people who disagree with you.

By the way, here's what the son of the founder of Hamas, Mosab Hassan Yousef had to say about Hamas, " Their goal is to conquer the globe & build an Islamic State on every inch of it.

Hamas is willing to sacrifice as many Palestinians lives as it takes. Israel, in the Middle East, is fighting for the Free World.

Hamas is a dangerous organization because it didn't care about the lives of their own or the lives of others.

Hamas is not seeking co-existence & compromise. Hamas is seeking conquest & take over.. & By the way, the destruction of Israel is not Hamas' final destination.

Hamas' final destination is building the Islamic Caliphate, which means an Islamic State under rubble of every other civilization."

enjoy-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKv2GGw7f4M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr7-gwZ7Ils

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIBNRVgq59Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3c5uWIDBXY

What is Palestine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9ReF4UUa4E

history facts on Israel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTDPRtprKJQ

@SPQR
"Bolivia declares Israel ‘terrorist state"
http://rt.com/news/176852-bolivia-israel-terrorist-state/

Maybe a bit more focus on bolivian forums to "improve Israel's image abroad" :)

@Jayb
Jayb:"of course, you could go to a Hamas University & learn how to kill people"

No that is where you go to learn how NOT to kill people considering how ineffective their rudimentary projectiles are - not even worth launching on new year's eve. As the Author Points out the car manufacturers the world over are better at creating the 'killing machines' aka cars, causing more Israeli deaths than Hamas's dud darts.
To any half-decent human the actions of Palestinians are like a few punches and slaps a woman being raped is able to dole out to the rapist.

Jayb: "By the way, here's what the son of the founder of Hamas, Mosab Hassan Yousef had to say about Hamas, " Their goal is to conquer the globe & build an Islamic State on every inch of it."

The same people who couldn't prevent the hostile take over of their own lands by bunch of gun-toting thugs and have been reduced to a status lower than refugees in their own 'country' are out to conquer the globe? This is not a struggle against illegal occupation? Of course, makes perfect sense! :)
And Israel is the bulwark, humanity's last hope, keeping these violent crazies @ bay? Who are out to take over the world?
hehehe you seriously believe that? C'mon, do you? like seriously? cross my heart and hope to die serious? Do you? :)

I am afraid the time is up for this line of reasoning manufactured to feed the 'liberal western mind and keep it from waking up and seeing the reality, the world is beginning to see through the facade and realizing -> "It is the psychology of the murderer, the rapist, the bully. That’s what Israel is in this situation.

Ok Hadi, a scenario.

Israel capitulates & hands Hamas control of all Israel.

What would Hamas next action be. Let me see.
1. Accept Israeli's as equals?
2. Instigate peace in throughout Israel.
3. Announce that all religions can be practiced in Israel without any restrictions placed on them.
4. Put away all their Arms & live in peace with the Jews, Christians, Shia, Sunni, Alahwites, Druze & Baha'is, etc.

Or....

You put what you think would happen here. I look forward to your thoughts.

SPQR,
You keep introducing diversions, obviously to dilute the focus. An impartial reader will see your attempts as admission of the weak basis of your reasoning.

And now you have brought in slavery and, as usual, you are blaming it all on the Muslims. I must touch your diversions while keeping the focus intact.

Not to say the no Muslim had any role in it, the slavery, an ancient practice, was common in Roman world, also the10th century Vikings would sell men and women in open markets along Volga River and Caspian Sea.

But nothing in human history compares with the Atlanta slave trade (1441-1840) in volume, exploitation and brutality. Historic records are too many and too vivid to be ignored along with the (18th and 19th Century) literature condemning the black man to an inherent inferior position for a moral justification for his enslavement – something similar to what you are trying to do to Palestinians today.
Conclusive historic evidence: How did the huge number of black Africans end up in Americas – Not on work or business visas!

On “forced conversion of Hindus in India”: Mughal kings, like their counterparts in other societies, were only interested in land and subjects. None of them needed to resort to the forced conversions as the ‘manufactured’ facts of your reference suggests – same is true about other ‘fictitious’ figures included in your post. Conversions in India happened through Sufi saints in the time span of centuries. Their tombs in Hindu areas attract millions from all faiths even today. For finding facts, you have to read the genuine history books, which apparently is not your concern.

Now you try to justify your posts by another misquote “NC's claim that Islam was an embodiment of all that was good and pure”. My post only asked you for a reference which forced you to admit that you misquoted Quran. Along with these misquotes, now you are misquoting history on a massive scale.
Your conscience should be bothered by these misquotes, and it should be shattered by your passionate support of Israeli brutalities.

SPQR continued …..

The issue is that:

• Israel is continuously expanding its settlement on land that belongs to Palestinians who are being squeezed into sub-human standards of living.

• Fellow Jews have been invited from all over the world to take land that does not belong to them and are fully supported to hold the land by terror and oppression.

• Those (guilty of) resisting occupation are abducted and tortured in Israeli prisons in thousands

• The rest (in open prisons) are bombed by air and targeted by state-of-the-art ground weaponry supplied by US. Thousands of homes, schools and business are destroyed in regular cycles of few months

In short, people are in siege in their own land because Israel with the support of US can unleash brutalities and can get away with it.
World citizens now in ever increasing number express their disgust with the victimiser – thanks to the social media. Still a small minority of SPQRs, because of their loyalties to Israel for reasons they cannot dare to disclose, find flimsy excuses for their support for the perpetrators in the distorted versions of history and skewed facts on the ground – thanks again to information revolution, the misinformation campaign does not last.

The world-conscience demolished apartheid, and yes, there were SPQRs supporting apartheid with the arguments of faults they found in the victims then. Make no mistake, the world-conscience will not tolerate Israel’s horrendous crimes against humanity.

Israel’s support has cost US severe erosion in its word influence which sits at an unprecedented low and is in an irreversible state from all indicators. The traditional associates distant themselves from Israel in the world forums. Because of its crimes, Israel has nearly achieved a status of world-villain in the just eyes of the world citizens. The world-conscience reacts slowly, but it does eventually.

“There is a story that one day a pagan had approached Hillel (Rabbi Hillel the elder) and told him that he would be willing to convert to Judaism if the Master could recite the whole of the Torah to him while he stood on one leg. Hillel replied: “Do not do unto others as you would not have done unto you. That is the whole of the Torah: go and learn it.”77”

Excerpt From: Armstrong, Karen. “History of God.” Ballantine Books, 2011-06-08. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewBook?id=450595283

Please Jews do to others, as you would like done to you, when the tide turns, and tide does turn; that is the lesson of history and you reap what you sow, that is a fact. This is what God is saying in Torah and This, in my understanding, is the message in Junaids article and I endorse it .

@McAdam

Can't agree more with you McAdam. You have summed it up.

NC

You’re badly in need of one of those little plastic bottles of iced coffee which advertises itself for times "When your place is all over the head”

You accuse me of << introducing diversions…[like] slavery>>
Let me remind you that, slavery came into it in answer to your challenge:
<< you [can] search in Muslim history of a thousand years [and not find anything comparable to the bloodshed of Western history]>>

Slavery came into it, because slavery along with forced conversion was the driving force of Islamic campaigns in Africa.

You waffle-on giving me a halal history of slavery.

Since you have made it a point of contention : The biggest and the most long lasting slave trade in history was not the much publicized Atlantic/Americas slave trade but the Ottoman-Arab slave trade. I’m not surprised you are blissfully ignorant of it –I’ll bet you they don’t teach it at the local Islamic school!

If you are open to << Conclusive historic evidence>> for starters, Google:
1) The date slavery was *officially* abolished in (that guardian of the holy shrines) Saudi Arabic
2) And while you’re at it research the great slave rebellions in the Arab world

Same goes for your knowledge of the subcontinents history.
You say: << Mughal kings, like their counterparts in other societies, were only interested in land and subjects>> LOL
The Hindu holocaust at the hands of Islamic invaders started long before the Mughal’s
(the Mughals appear to be the full extent of your very sketchy knowledge of subcontinental history ! )

And again, I absolve you, because they would not teach that at the local Islamic school, or in any school in Pakistan either!--much to India's chagrin.

NC (cont)

Now, onto the current situation in the Fertile Crescent.

I asked you in my previous post for your definition of “occupied territory”
Was it those territories Israel acquire after 1967?
Or was it the whole of Israel?
You very tellingly ignored it!

So again I ask: WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF OCCUPIED TERRITORIES?

Instead of answering the question you sermonise --and then regurgitate rumour and straight-out lies straight from Lefty –Islamic propaganda sites

I'll put it to you again NC, your driving force is not loss of life or violation of rights. But the tribal /wolf pack like loyal to those who you identify with as fellow Ummah. When your group is kicking tails you and your ilk are silent.When they are getting their tails kicked you squawk to high heaven

SPQR

Was it beyond your intellectual grasp to debate the philosophical arguments I raised or is it that they are too proactive for you to accept.

Jayb

You are coward, racist and liar.

iamanutter: jayb. You are coward, racist and liar.

Just reporting the facts, ma'am just the facts. From, "Little Blue Riding Hood."

Thanks for that. Perhaps you can answer the simple question that Hadi has refused to answer, so far.

A scenario.

Israel capitulates & hands Hamas control of all Israel.

What would Hamas next action be. Let me see.
1. Accept Israeli's as equals?
2. Instigate peace in throughout Israel.
3. Announce that all religions can be practiced in Israel without any restrictions placed on them.
4. Put away all their Arms & live in peace with the Jews, Christians, Shia, Sunni, Alahwites, Druze & Baha'is, etc.

Or....

You put what you think would happen here. I look forward to your thoughts.

Any of you Jihadist lovers want to have a crack at answering it, be my guest.

@Julie-Nutter

<<SPQR, Was it beyond your intellectual grasp to debate the philosophical arguments I raised>>

"[your] philosophical arguments"! ROFLMAO

[your] philosophical arguments"! hahaahaahahahhahahhaahahahhaahaaaahhahhahhahahaahhahaahahhahahashahahhahhahahaahahahahahahahahaahahahahashaahahahahahahahhaaaaaahhhahhaahahaah

You like to bignote yourself,eh!

What part of the below didn't you understand: "if your source for any atrocities is HAMAS (or Hezbullah et la) or any of their campy followers who go by various names, I give them absolutely zero credence."

Tell me what part you had trouble comprehending and I will simplify it for you!

[your] philosophical arguments"! hahaahaahahahhahahhaahahahhaahaaaahhahhahhahahaahhahaahahhahahashahahhahhahahaahahahahahahahahaahahahahashaahahahahahahahhaaaaaahhhahhaahahaah

Why don't you identify yourself. You fat coward?

Your own Torah tells you what to expect.
You reap what you sow.
When you sow fear and hatred and atrocity ... well you get the drift.

SPQR,
So, I “regurgitate rumours”, according to you.

• Death of 1500 civilians and injuries to thousands, destruction of homes, schools, hospitals etc from Israeli brutalities - is a rumour?
• Continuous occupation of Palestinians’ lands and unending squeeze placed upon them to progressively worsen their living conditions by Israel – is a rumour?

What world do you live in, SPQR?

The posts responding to Junaid’s article have a focus on the ongoing loss of life and property at the hands of Israel. And you keep introducing diversions to change the subject.

Like before, I will touch your diversions, but, to your frustration, refuse to change the subject.

Kings/dictators all over the world were propelled by their greed, be it Mughals, Ghaznawi, Ghouri etc in India or Alexander, Roman kings, Jengheze, Helaqo, Napolian, Hitler and countless others in the other parts of the world including the mass-scale killers of the colonial onslaught of the recent past.
Problem with you is that you want all eyes shut to the bloodshed elsewhere in the world and like to have people believe that only Muslims do it.

Why? Because you try to build up a case against the besieged Palestinians. And your case is: Muslims are abhorrent, Palestinians are Muslims therefore they deserve what is happening to them.

And then you try to have the readers believe that you are not an Islamophobe!

Possbilians are harmless souls. They place themselves between certainties of the extreme positions taken up by religionists and atheists. Seething with extreme hatred against a faith, how possibly can you be a Possiblian?

This is my response to the hypothetical question posed as to what would Palestinians do if they had their way. Kindly consider :-
None of the listed scenarios may materialize and your worst fears may come true. Or the out come may be to your pleasant surprise, who knows? Let us see an example from the contemporary history. A "threat to the system, a potentially dangerous man"was imprisoned by the apartheid regime of South Africa for nearly his life time, for similar fears, but Nelson Mandela, came up with love for his oppressors, reconciliation and forgiveness. Who knew he would?

Every one is innocent unless proven otherwise is one of the universally accepted principles of justice. No one can be punished for the suspicion of what he might do. If you were to exterminate Palestinians because you suspect they may harm you in the future, then you may as well have to nuke the entire human race other than you self.
Obviously it is an absurd thought and you do not want to do that; no one does.

If we rise above the holier than though attitude and consider and treat fellow humans as equals, the problem would be solved. You have the right to eye for eye and tooth for tooth and no right to thousand teeth for one tooth and thousand eyes for one eye. Torah that I know, does not give that right. Jesus, a Jew, advised turning the other cheek. It may be a surprise to some, Quranic injunctions are worth pondering over, according to Quran you have right to avenge the wrong by doing exactly that much harm in return and no more and the Quran says, if you can forgive, your reward is greater. Who knows the Palestinian in your hypothetical question, surprises you by acting in accordance with the Quranic injunction; give him a chance......that is the only way to stop this cycle of violence, like Nelson Mandela did
Best regard

NC ,

I love the way you try and twist things. It was you near the start of our little discussion who issued the challenge: << you [can] search in Muslim history of a thousand years [and not find anything comparable to the bloodshed of Western history]>>

Remember that?

Now, because your ignorance of your own history had been exposed –you start singing a different tune: << you want … people believe that only Muslims do it.>>

No where did I SAY that only Muslims do it.
No where did I IMPLY that only Muslims do it.
It was your proud boast (and one we often hear from believers in the religion of peace ) that Islam is above such things which called in the “diversion”

As for your accounts of atrocities I will say to you what I said to Julia’s Nutter :
"if your source for any atrocities is HAMAS (or Hezbullah et la) or any of their campy followers who go by various names, I give them absolutely zero credence."

AND STILL, YOU HAVENT ANSWERED THAT PESKY QUESTION:
WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF OCCUPIED TERRITORIES

i'manutter: You reap what you sow. When you sow fear and hatred and atrocity.

Well that accounts for Hamas getting their ar$es kicked, doesn't it. I notice Islamists are kicking everyone just about everywhere in the Middle East at the moment. You lot are sure having fun, eh.

Sorry mate, not Jewish. I'm an Atheist.

I have another video, unfortunately I can't get a link for it. It's about another failed suicide bomber. Guess his name must have been Achmed.

Another story with a truly happy ending!??

The suicide bomber was killed before he could activate his belt and in true Islamic tradition he was raised aloft for the usual chanting public procession as a martyr, BUT somebody forgot to disarm his belt. The result was predictable and instead of being a failure as a suicide bomber, Achmed became a very successful one, albeit with the wrong victims.

I think it is rather a good example of poetic justice.

A good try McAdam (about as Scottish as I am a wallaby) but you didn't answer in approved the dot point manner, just a convoluted diatribe of nothing really. Try the Dot Point way.

Dear McAdam,

You wrote;

“If you were to exterminate Palestinians because you suspect they may harm you in the future, then you may as well have to nuke the entire human race other than you self. Obviously it is an absurd thought and you do not want to do that; no one does.”

Yesterday an op-ed piece was posted on the Time of Israel website. It was titled 'When Genocide is Permissible' and was written by a New York Jew. The Times of Israel is apparently pro-war and pro-settler.

Part of it read;

“I will conclude with a question for all the humanitarians out there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu clearly stated at the outset of this incursion that his objective is to restore a sustainable quiet for the citizens of Israel. We have already established that it is the responsibility of every government to ensure the safety and security of its people. If political leaders and military experts determine that the only way to achieve its goal of sustaining quiet is through genocide is it then permissible to achieve those responsible goals?”

Given that 85% of Israelis approve of the current slaughter this writer obviously thought he was tapping into mainstream sentiment. He has since been sacked by the organisation and offered a complete apology, but the fact that he thought there would be he could get away with it speaks volumes.

http://gawker.com/here-is-an-israeli-paper-column-titled-when-genocide-i-1614631309?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

That aside I think it is instructive to recognise the difference in tactics of those in the West Bank compared to Gaza. The Palestinian people initially voted in Hamas into power, ultimately that power was taken from them in the West Bank and they were left in control of Gaza.

Through settlement activity, Israeli government housing projects in East Jerusalem and other areas of the West Bank, plus the building of connecting roads has meant the cancer of illegal settlements has eaten away at the West Bank so it now presents as the image of a diseased organ with just a third of it under direct Palestinian control.

Cont..

Cont..

The Gaza strip in the mean time has for all intents and purposes become the largest contiguous Palestinian area in the world. The long struggle to make settler activity unviable for the Israelis saw them being removed and no erosion of their land has taken place. This has not come about without enormous cost but it is an irrefutable fact that the majority of the Palestinians saw the fight to retain land, to strive for freedom and autonomy as worth it. It is why they voted for them.

Given the hardline expansionist government in power in Israel it is hard to see a different course of action that would retain land for the Palestinians. From their point of view Israel continues to flaunt UN resolutions and is determined to keep Hamas and Fatah separate knowing Hamas would stiffen Fatah from continuing as a Vichy style puppet government, colluding with the occupiers, and whose weakness sees more and more land being devoured by the illegal settlers.

It is worth remembering that the last suicide bombing on Israeli soil was back in 2008. Hamas has a measure of control over the various militias operating in Gaza and that control has resulted in more strategic actions less damaging to its cause. The escalating brutality is all being driven from the Israelis which is seeing some long term vigorous supporters within the US mainstream media rethinking their positions;

“This is asinine,” said the MSNBC host and former Republican congressman. “This continued killing of women and children in a way that appears to be indiscriminate is asinine.” Scarborough described himself as having a record as one of Israel’s biggest supporters, saying, “I’ve always been a 100 percent supporter of Israel. The joke in Congress was anytime I wanted a key to the city of Tel Aviv, I could, you know, get a gold-plated one.” “The United States of America — we cannot be associated with this if this continues. This is so bad, not only for the Israeli people, but for us,” Scarborough said.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/07/joe-scarborough-israel-gaza-109577.html#ixzz39Dv6TWDO

SPQR Continued.. 2 Aug 2014
Second part of my post (below) addressing your question was deferred by the site for four hours so here it is.

The likes of you have recorded their positions in the indelible ink of history. To justify slavery (18th and 19th century Europe), they declared black people to be so inferior as to justify their enslavement – (read literature then attempt a comment). During Holocaust (20th century Germany), they said that Jews were so terrible that their only treatment was the Holocaust (literature available). During Apartheid era (20th century colonial powers), they said the sub-human blacks can’t live side by side with a superior race (literature available).

And now when it comes to Holocaust combined with Apartheid unleashed on Palestinians, they (I mean you) say that Palestinians deserve this because they are Muslims.
Your strategy has been repeated in the history so many times that it is an open secret in this age. With all the schemes you think you can devise, the world-citizen today can see through you.

Now your question “YOUR DEFINITION OF OCCUPIED TERRITORIES?"

My answer is a question to you: Do you agree to a genuine third party arbitration to decide what is the occupied territory?
Of course, I mean genuine arbitrators – not a group operating under final say of the known backers of a party in dispute.

Now (your most recent post)
• On “accounts of atrocities” the world press is full of graphic details – you don’t see those?
• You misquote me once again – I did not get into merits or otherwise of any religion, just challenged your false quote on Quran
• Now you seem to see that ONLY Muslims don’t shed blood along with other horrible acts your posts have been suggesting. It also means, hopefully, that you will see the response of Palestinian as a natural human response to an aggression. And if you bring in their beliefs in the equation and through that renter crooked doors of history you have devised yourself, then I will say your back to square one.

"How is it possible?". asks Mr Cheema, "that the Palestinians provoked Israel?"

Well, I will tell you how.

They belong to a warlike and failed religion in which everything is "inshallah". It is a religion of hate which has failed to give it's adherents any means of obtaining prosperity through the application of scientific principles. it is a religion where its priestly class is terrified of losing its grip over its own devotees and they need somebody to blame for its own people's misery.

It is a religion which preaches that if you die fighting for Islam you are a "Jihadi" who is the highest grade of Muslim. But if you just kill an infidel you are a "Ghazi" who is almost as good.

It is a religion which is behind almost all of the terrorism now raging on this planet. It is a paranoid religion which sees everybody who is not a Muslim as its enemy. The only hope it gives its adherents is a better life after they are dead, preferably fighting to expand this dangerous religion. It's most dedicated adherents are males with no education other than reading the Koran and listening to hate preachers.

This results in situations where "Palestinians" use every subterfuge to advance their desire to destroy Israel, which they see as an affront to their God. There is no trick too low to advance their murderous cause. They will even strap explosives onto children and send them towards Israeli checkpoints while at the same time crying to the west's naive leftists how beastly the Israelis are for killing their children.

"Palestine" does not build Ipods or microchips. It is not economically viable. Its population growth is idiotic in a "country" with no jobs other than being a soldier to kill Israelis. It exists on UN goodwill and AID which it routinely misuses to kill Israelis. It exists on AID from oil rich Muslim countries who see 'Palestine" as their pawns in their never ending desire to destroy Israel.

If HAMAS declared that it wanted peace with Israel, it would be out of business.

Thankfully Australia has stepped up to deliver $5 million dollars in aid to Gaza. They certainly are not prepared to come out and directly challenge Israel's slaughter of civilians as yet, I'm wondering how many more have to blown apart for that to happen, but the money will certainly help and I regard it as a proper use of foreign aid.

Here is a picture of an Israeli bomb about to demolish another building. The terror felt by the ordinary Palestinians must be debilitating and beyond my imagination.
http://i.imgur.com/PboeSoV.jpg

Jayb
Your post about reaping etc shows quite obviously your intellect is as limited as your ability to reflect Australian values.

You are still a coward, liar and racist

Well said LEGO, everything you have said is 100% correct. These people are still living in the Dark Ages & refuse to come out.

Steelie: http://i.imgur.com/PboeSoV.jpg

Great photo. But you have just proved a point. Hamas has fired 20000+ unguided Rockets into Civilian areas of Israel. The sole purpose is create terror & kill women & children. Do we agree on that point.

Now have a closer look at the bomb. It is a 500lb Mk82 LGB. The 500lb is it's explosive potential, Mk82 designates the type of General Purpose bomb, & the LGB stands for Laser Guided Bomb. Note the attachment on the nose of the Bomb. that is the Laser Guided attachment. This allows for pin point accuracy, allowing the Bomb to hit precisely what it is aimed at, as apposed to fire & forget Rockets used by Hamas. So, thank you for that.

i'm a nutter: Your post about reaping etc shows quite obviously your intellect is as limited as your ability to reflect Australian values.

It is precisely my Australian values which allows me to see through the Aims ideology of Islam. That old Camel Train Bandit has a lot to answer for. I just bet he is burning twice a hot as everyone else in Hell.

i'm a nutter: You are still a coward, liar and racist.

Thanks again for your praise. Coming from a Jihadist supporter that is a real complement. xxxooxxxoo

NC,

They save a picture is worth a thousand words –here’s a few million words in response to your rant.

NC & co shout : *Civilians are killed* –I wonder why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtg1pjnEW2c&feature=related
[Actually, when I read your last posts NC I envisage you sounding and looking much like that]

and here’s another,reason:
“Indeed, as journalists arrived at the scene in Shejaia Sunday afternoon, several men with guns were scurrying from the scene. Some bore their weapons openly, slung over their shoulder, but two, disguised as women, were seen walking off with weapons partly concealed under their robes. Another had his weapon wrapped in a blanket and held on his chest as if it were a baby.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/humanitarian-truce-confusion-endangers-group-of-aid-workers/article19684106/

NC & co shout: *An ambulance was attacked* —I wonder why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khqeDKtHXQE&feature=related

NC & co shout :*A school was targeted* –I wonder why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI&feature=channel

NC & co shout : * A mosque was attacked*-I wonder why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zd55Zhj5gQ

NC & co shout : * A funeral was attacked *–I wonder why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgQLGYb9Xfo

Hamas, Hezbollah, the Janjaweed, Jemaah Islamiyah, and Al-Shabaab are all employ similar tactics -–all are masters of spin.

And as for that question
<<My answer is a question to you: Do you agree to a genuine third party arbitration to decide what is the occupied territory?>>

My answer : NO! I don’t want any third party’s answer. I want to here what YOU think NC
C’mon tell all those liberal softies out there what you really want.

SPQR,
You refuse to accept an impartial third-party arbitration on the question of what is the occupied territory. Not surprised. Israel wouldn’t accept it either. Reason? An impartial third party will uphold justice, which you and Israel don’t want.

On the other hand, I will accept an impartial third-party arbitration on the question of what is the occupied territory, and so will, I trust, every peace loving and just citizen of the world. This settles the question you raised, at least for these posts.

The reason Israelis don’t want justice on the issue is their hope that they would be able to perpetuate into permanence their exploitation of Palestinian’s lands and resources by force. Colonial settlers (Colons) of 1st and 2nd quarters of the 20th century in North Africa had the same hope, given the powerful colonial forces behind them, like Israeli military of today. They were wrong, and so are the Neo-Colons Israel sponsors today.

Lesson from history: Exploitations shorn from historic context are permanent only in the deluded minds of the exploiters. Israel’s exclusive reliance on force is driven by a false premise that they are up against ONLY a much inferior Palestinian force.

WRONG again. Israel’s fight is against the world-conscience. And this adversary is way too STRONG. The current global isolation of Israel is a prelude for thinking people to what lies ahead for Israel.

On the ground realities, nobody is interested in the misinformation the likes of you are trying to spread.

When:

• A UN Relief and Works official (Christopher Gunnes) observes that “the rights of Palestinians, even their children, are wholesale denied and it is appalling” before he COLLAPSES INTO TEARS in front of the camera;
• The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (Navi Pillay) declares Israel’s offensive in Gaza Strip a “deliberate defiance” of International Law; and
• The UN Human Rights Council resolves to call an independent probe into Israel’s war crimes in Gaza

You have a conclusive view of the ground realities.

NC: on the question of what is the occupied territory.

NC, you don't understand, this is land that the Palestinians & Syrians lost in a War they started. So it's not "occupied" it's Territory legitimately "Won" in War. As such it all belongs to Israel. The Palestinians were lucky they were allowed to stay. They have since shown just how grateful they are by attacking & killing innocent Israeli women & children indiscriminately for the last 27 years.

This time they should round up every Hamas supporter & try them for murder. Not only of Israeli people but of Palestinian people.

No word from McAdam or nutter on my little quiz. Or Steelie on his Bomb yet. Wassar madder, a piggie got ya tongue.

Dear LEGO, you said:-
Palestinians provoked Israel ( because):-

They belong to a failed religion

"Palestinians" desire to destroy Israel

"Palestine" does not build Ipods or microchips. It is not economically viable. Its population growth is idiotic in a "country" with no jobs. It exists on UN goodwill

Your charge sheet is almost identical to Nazi charge sheet against Jews, justifying what is called holocaust. You and some of your supporters cheer Israel for killing Palestinians and prove Junaid right when he writes that massacre in Gaza is being cheered on as cutting grass.

Islam a failed religion? On what basis? Have you studied it? I am sure you have not, for if you had, you might as well have been one of the scores of people in the west who are embracing it. I have personally witnessed reversion to Islam of Christian and Jewish persons in USA. This is the fastest growing religion in the world, particularly in Europe and USA.

Palestinians want to destroy Israel? With what? Intentions are manifested in capabilities and not rhetoric. What do they have to destroy Israel with? Rockets ? Which are effective no more than fire works and Israel with the most modern arsenal including nukes. Or the suicide attacks? which Hamas has carried out none since 2004 as they promised; Says Jimmy Carter and he further says that Israel went back on its commitment made in Camp David , not to build any more settlements. Please see his book "Palestine, Peace not Apartheid". Title says it all, please read it, please read the writing on the wall.

Thanks and Best regards

Dear Jayb,

Engaging with you in the past is like trying to reason with a cantankerous lap dog but since you seem intent on continually pissing on my shoe let's try again shall we.

You wrote;

“Hamas has fired 20000+ unguided Rockets into Civilian areas of Israel. The sole purpose is create terror & kill women & children. Do we agree on that point.”

No of course not because it is rot. Hamas is striking back with inaccurate weaponry to put pressure on the Israeli government. They obviously know how ineffectual they are at hitting any targets but they continue to do so, at great risk to its resistance fighters, because they have very little alternative means of applying that pressure.

Do you really think that if they were given access to weaponry on a par with Israel on the proviso that they purely target on the same criteria as the IDF that they wouldn't jump at the chance?

What if they declared a 100 km zone around Gaza that was in the range of their rockets and said all civilians within that area were given 24 hours to evacuate to the north of Israel for their own protection? Would that satisfy you?

As to Hamas firing 20000 rockets (doubtful) I guarantee Israel has hit far more targets within Gaza with far more devastating munitions than anything that has come their way.

Now the bomb, it is probably a GBU-12 Paveway II based on the MK82. It has nearly 90kg of high explosive in comparison to less than 5 kg of ordinary TNT in a typical Qassam. It also has a blast area nearly 50 times the Qassam. It is a very effective child killer as we have seen.

What of it?

As to the IDF pinpointing targets what rubbish.

Here is them taking out a row of apartment building over an hour;
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/israel-intensifies-gaza-assault-as-egyptian-mediators-revise-truce-plan-1.1881609#

And striking a row of ambulances reacting to an earlier bombing;
http://www.euronews.com/nocomment/2014/08/01/violent-explosion-in-gaza/

And just today hitting yet another UN school;
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/gaza-israeli-strike-on-un-school-kills-at-least-10-1.1886305

NC,

Soooo 17 lines --more than ¾ of your post--all about why I should accept a third party’s definition.AND STILL NO ANSWER FROM YOU as to what you consider occupied territory.

I want to hear YOUR answer –YOUR DEFINITION. I want all those naive soft liberals out there to hear what you consider occupied , C’mon NC own-up!

So again NC :WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF OCCUPIED TERRITORY –HOW MUCH OF ISRAEL WOULD YOU TAKE BACK?

And I note you're up to those “diversions” again, side issues you claim to dislike so much << Colonial settlers (Colons) of 1st and 2nd quarters of the 20th century in North Africa had the same hope>> NC , old chap, if it hadn’t been for colonial settlers & occupation there would be no Islamic Middle East –and Egypt would still be Coptic & in a lot happier state.

And please don’t hide behind “human rights”. When has your side ever been interested in “human rights”? You use it as a pretext -a shield!. Have you told your Lefty allies that you still consider them infidels? They are trading under the misapprehension that you are going to divide the cake with them LOL. Little do they realize that you are going to shaft them just as you did after the Ayatollah's rise to power in Iran.

@Jayb
"Israel capitulates & hands Hamas control of all Israel"

You guys seem willing to talk about everything under the sun except for what needs to be talked about :). Wonder if that is an acknowledgement of the RESOUNDING HOLLOWNESS of your arguments and a realization of your untenable position.
How about before entertaining the thought of what would happen when the first chimpanzee lands on the sun barefooted riding a tricycle - Let’s talk about what NEEDs to be talked about

DO YOU, Mr Jayb, ACCEPT THE RIGHT OF THE PALESTNIANS TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE? THEIR OWN COUNTRY? Your prime minister doesn't btw and that is his stated position, DO YOU?

As for your original loony question:
The ABSOLUTE WORST that could happen , like the ABSOLUTE ABSOLUTE WORST...like ssoooo bad that humanity's head will be bowed down in shame forever.... it will be something like this, what IDF does day in and out:
a)Locking up entire population in an open air prison
b)Pouring down burning phosphorus from the sky
c)Ensuring it falls on every house, every woman, every child
d)And ensuring they live through and after the experience (most anyway)
SO, CLEARLY – you have NOTHING to fear! We see it happening right before our eyes every couple of years.
It will be taking a page out of IDF’s ‘Humane War Manual’ …

..’DO UNTO OTHERS…….. ’ :)

DO YOU, Mr Jayb, ACCEPT THE RIGHT OF THE PALESTNIANS TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE? THEIR OWN COUNTRY?

The whole universe/multiverse is alive and we are an incomprehensibly smaller unit of the living. We have consciousness which is a part of global higher levels of consciousness. This is not about which religion did what. Religions came to uplift the banner of consciousness and were right at those turning points in history. Unfortunately, we humans have an innate need to glorify ourselves in cult mentality by becoming a part of any religion and then subsequently denouncing the others. Everyone appears to be right in their cause by using Buzz words like Justice, peace and freedom. All religious nutcases have a barbaric history primarily due to the fact that they follow their instincts based on conditional self to acquire more worldly material and then rewrite their own history to portray their shortcomings as eternal bliss to humanity. Self-righteousness is a good but can be equally evil if practised without observing the observer. If Buddah , Jesus, Moses and Muhammad were alive today they would have been stunned to see what we are doing under the banners of religions and then associating ourselves with them. In essence, this should be about protecting our fellow human beings from the horrific atrocities of war. No-one is pure, nor hammas neither Zionists but do have one fundamental attribute in common which is consciousness. They are diseased human beings reacting to their particular environment and cannot see themselves through impartial eyes because they are constrained in that environment. We cannot achieve our next step of evolution until we become one civilised society incorporating equal respect and values for our fellow humans and living beings. I know this utopian dream lies at the height of idealism but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive towards it.
Love is the only solution and can only be achieved through nonviolence, Period.

This conflict has NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION despite the plethora of religious symbology and tradition associated with the landscape.
It is the exact same struggle you will witness in the depths of the Aamazon forest between as yet 'uncontacted tribes".
Two words define this conflict, No, Not Allah or Muhammad, or Moses or YHWH, the words are the "Oppressor" and the "Oppressed"

@ Hadi

<<This conflict has NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION...Two words define this conflict..."Oppressor" and the "Oppressed">>

Good to hear such a high and noble commitment to justice Quaranic Hadi

Sooo I guess, we can look forward to seeing you and NC starting up a new threads on the plight of Zoroastrians or Bahá'ís at the hands of the Muslim majority in Iran, or Christians in at the hands of Muslim terror groups in Nigeria, or Christians in Indonesia at the hands of Muslim mobs real soon,eh?

PIGS MIGHT FLY!

Chinese have successfully reverse engineered SPQR

The simple algorithm used was:

WHILE Israeli Defence Forces slaughter CIVILIANS to make way for new SETTLEMENTS

MANUFACTURE "Quranic quotes" to villify Islam

WHEN Caught with Pants down

*DIVERT* *DIVERT* *DIVERT* to MANUFACTURED Facts and HISTORY

IF CONFRONTED and CONTAINED

Copy / Paste Pre-Prepared vile filth and *REGURGITATE*

*REGURGITATE*

*REGURGITATE*

At your local chinese shop for 'one dolla one dolla one dolla'

SPQR,

You start showing up frustration in your language – a sure indicator of the absence of sound reasoning with you!

1. On the question that you keep repeating without understanding my answer:

a. To repeat, my answer to your question is complete.

b. If you still can’t understand, let me give you another question to find out why. Why don’t you accept Impartial arbitration on the question of what is the occupied territory?

c. Apparently you want me to say something, in your words, for “naive soft liberals and left allies etc”. Why don’t to say what it is, I may comment, if I find it worth that!


My friend, humanity has moved on from the time when vanquished would be enslaved. Now there are prisoners of war kept under universally agreed rules. Rules also apply to the occupied territories also. Colons and Neo-Colons were and are the present-age settlers, who could not and will not (be able to) defy the present-day world-conscience. Hence my answer for an impartial third-party arbitrator from the real world. Pushing humanity centuries back, to prove what is hidden in your mind, cannot happen.

“Hiding behind human rights”? Human Rights and Justice are the higher values universally respected as the main criteria for human actions. You, understandably, get disturbed when these values enter the discussion.

It is under this pressure that you must find justifications for Israeli brutalities. And the only justification you think of is the horrible traits that you attempt to assign to the brutalised.
As for the brutalisers, you will never notice even the most horrible incitements like that of rabbi Ovadia Yosef – teacher revered by top Israeli leadership of today.
“GOYIM WERE BORN ONLY TO SERVE US. WITHOUT THAT THEY HAVE NOT PLACE IN THE WORLD – ONLY TO SERVE THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL”

Above all, no amount your deviations can shift attention from the on-going massacre of humanity in Israel’s open-air prison.
Your distractions restrict me to this video – from the land supporting the most brutal regime of the current history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSPAm-ZWBAQ&feature=youtu.be&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DhSPAm-ZWBAQ%26feature%3Dyoutu.be&has_verified=1

Steelie: Does Palestine have the right to exist?

let's look at Ancient History.

Q1. When did the Kingdom of Israel come into existence.

A1. When the Hebrews invaded from the Desert after leaving Egypt after the Hittite invasion. Around 1800 to 1500BC. http://www.timemaps.com/history/syria-1000bc.

Q2. Were the any Arabs around then?

A2. No that didn't happen until the domestication of the Camel around 1000BC.

Q3. Was there a Palestinian People around then.

A3. No. not until Herodotus wrote in c. 450 BC in The Histories of a 'District of Syria,' called Palaistinê. During the 2nd and 1st centuries BC, the independent Hasmonean state of Judea. in 37 BC, Judaea became a client Kingdom of Rome but in 6 AD Roman intervention made Judaea a Roman Province. So no Palestine.

So far Palestine, as an entity, lived for about 250 years as a District of Syria as part of the Seleucid Dynasty under the Greeks. Sort of like the Shire Council of Logan, only smaller. Not a Country in its own right.

Q4. What happened after the Romans?

A4. In Southern Levant, until about 200 and despite the genocide of Jewish-Roman Wars, Jews had formed a majority of the population. Due to the decline of Jewish population, Samaritans and Greco-Romans became the dominant societies in this region by the end of the 2nd century. No Palestinians.

Cont.

Modern History:

Q4. When did the Modern entity of Palestine come into existence?

A4. 1923, Paris Peace Conference. Name suggested by the British.

Q5. What happened in 1947?

A5. The Israeli migrated from Europe after WW2. The Palestinians objected to having Jews return to Palestine & they declared War on the Jewish People. Despite the Local Palestinian People, the British & no weapons as such the Immigrants won & were granted the State of Israel.

The Palestinians objected to this & began a terror regime against Israel. In 1967. They, with the help of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, & Egypt gave Israel a war. They were all thrashed in 6 days & Israel captured a lot of land, some they kept, some of which they gave back eventually as a sign of good will.

Then the Egyptians & the Palestinians gave Israel another War (90/91). They were thrashed again & Egypt was almost captured but were talked out of continuing on to Cairo by the UN. As a measure of good will they gave Egypt back what they had captured but put restrictions on Gaza to stop them importing Weapons. Unfortunately that hasn't worked & the Palestinians use the Aid they get form the World to buy Arms & build Tunnels so they can attack the Israeli people.

I won't bother with The Lebanon.

In the present situation the Palestinians people are pawn of Hamas & they are suffering again due to the attitude of Hamas towards the Israeli people. ("Kill them all, God will know his own.") Hamas is getting its ar$e kicked again this time & if they try it on again the same thing will happen.

Does Palestine have a right to exist. I think the time of Palestine has come & gone, it should now cease to exist.

By the way Steelie, NC, its not OCCUPIED TERRITORY. It's CAPTURED TERRITORIES. Big difference.

Steelie: What of it? As to the IDF pinpointing targets what rubbish.

There would be a tenfold increase in casualties if it wasn't pin point accuracy.

Steelie: Here is them taking out a row of apartment building over an hour;

In response to rocket salvoes fired by Hamas and its militant allies. Palestinians launched 52 rockets toward southern and central Israel, including the Tel Aviv area,

Steelie: And striking a row of ambulances reacting to an earlier bombing;

Spotted moving Munitions by the "Eye in the Sky."

Steelie: And just today hitting yet another UN school;

I response to firing Mortars from the School gate. The Artillery fire landed out side the School grounds during Lunch. So Hamas knew the Israeli's would respond automatically & injurer people. They use a similar system to "Green Arrow" which picks up where the Mortars are fired from & returns fire to the Base Plate before the first mortar lands.

@Jayb

Quite a historical reference, by the same logic I am afraid you will occupy Australia soon - too.
All this - while crying yourself hoarse over the (non-existent) threat of HAMAS taking over the world.
Fair Dinkum!

Great Job 'mate' - surely your arguments are 'very convincing' in the eyes of the 'naive soft liberals and left allies etc' you have been so eager to impress!

Self assured by this military-might (fully paid for by the US tax payer facing foreclosure on his mortgage) and the general feeling of superiority ('the chosen people') - this 'thinking' you represent is the real source of the never ending cycle of violence in the middle east. Hubris that finds any kind of negotiated settlement/compromise beneath it and wants to operate with ABSOLUTE IMPUNITY.
Sure :) - there have been crazier people on the planet -> currently rotting 'in' i

jayb

only a coward could enjoy being called a coward. Have you no shame?

If you were Australian you'd believe in a fair go. You don't.

now why don't you identify yourself?

Scared shite-less?

'I won't bother with The Lebanon.'

No of course not but not because you heroic IDF got done by a bunch of disorganised terrorists and totally lost the propaganda war?

Hey have you noticed now how the IDF claim all it's missing soldiers are dead not 'kidnapped'? Why is that? Is it because they don't want to face the fact of their impotence?

Dear Friends, we are not properly addressing the basic point. Our discussion which is already becoming bitter, will remain inconclusive unless we agree on a common set of rules. Some of us are considering Palestinians as fellow human beings with equal rights and others think otherwise. The discussion is going on like a football World Cup with one team insisting on playing with their feet as well as hands and they won't listen to the referee, for they have their own rules.

Now the basic question, which has been raised in the discussion,but yet not answered, needs resolution , before the discussion can go on meaningfully is, do the same set of rules apply to all human beings? If yes, Palestinians should have the same standard of living and same rights and their differences with Israelis be resolved through arbitration, as no one can be a party and judge at the same time.

If on the other hand Palestinians are sub humans; "grass" as pointed out by Junaid's article, the matter is different. The actions of Israel show that they do not consider them fellow human beings for no one will char the children of fellow human beings with banned phosphorous bombs, if valued like his own. Then, the situation will appear to be, as already pointed out, that "the sole purpose of non-Jews is to serve Jews", (Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the head of Shas’s Council of Torah Sages and a senior Sephardi adjudicator). The world could still function, if the rest of humanity agrees with this obvious absurdity. If they don't and our Jewish friends act as if they do, we have a recipe for perpetual chaos.

Now please, let the supporters of Israel answer this question; are all human beings, Jews and non Jews equal and do the same set of rules apply to all?. If they answer yes, we could discuss and if they say no, then what is the point of discussion?

I'm not sure why I bother.

Dear jayb,

You wrote;

“Steelie: Does Palestine have the right to exist?”

Why did you write two whole posts answering a question I did not even put to you. Once again you are snarling and snapping at shadows. Please make some effort to address what I had put to you or this will be a very short exchange.

A reminder of my questions;

“Do you really think that if they were given access to weaponry on a par with Israel on the proviso that they purely target on the same criteria as the IDF that they wouldn't jump at the chance?”

“What if they declared a 100 km zone around Gaza that was in the range of their rockets and said all civilians within that area were given 24 hours to evacuate to the north of Israel for their own protection? Would that satisfy you?”

Now to directly reply to what you have put to me.

1. According to my ex-IDF source the reason those apartment blocks would have been demolished is purely for line of sight. She pointed out the tanks in the foreground and the fact that they would have been unsighted if mortar round had come from any distance behind the buildings. So the lives of probably scores of Palestinians, the belongings and memories of hundreds of families were sacrificed to get a better view.
2. The ambulances were not moving munitions they were attending civilians slaughtered in a market place.
3. There were no mortars fired from the school gate. The report said the target was three resistance fighters riding past on a motorbike. This was not a laser guided bomb or precision weaponry of any description but artillery shells right next to a UN run relief center housing thousands of displaced civilians.

You have basically sat there and made all this up. It was all a crock but the question is why? Because it sounded good? Because it fit your narrative? Because in trying to defend the indefensible the temptation to resort to falsehoods becomes too strong?

Truly pitiful.

Dear McAdam

I was not aware that Hitler accused the Jews of not building Ipods or microchips. I was not aware that Hitler claimed that the Jewish faith was a "failed religion." Your claim that Hitler may have accused the Jews of wanting to destroy Germany may have been true. The difference is, that the leaders of the Jews in Europe did not go around proclaiming their desire to destroy Germany, as the political and religious leaders of the Muslims plainly state today.

My premise that Islam is a failed religion, is because I have studied it. And I have noted one particular aspect. The more Muslim it is, the more dysfunctional it is. Islam may be "fast growing", because of it's very high and unsustainable birth rates. But that hardly makes it a successful religion. A religion which does nothing more than create ever more poverty stricken Muslims, child brides, female circumcisions, honour killings, terrorism, high rates of rape, domestic abuse, high rates of violent crime and high rates of welfare dependency, does not seem very successful to me. Especially since it is not just a religion, it is an entire social, legal, and political system rolled into one. If Muslim populations are growing in the west, that should be a concern to you.

The declared aim of all the Muslim nations is to destroy Israel and they have tried to wipe out the Israelis with military force three times and failed. The "Palestinians" are their last resort. The object is to keep firing rockets into Israel to make Israel uninhabitable and to terrify the Jewish population into leaving. The Israelis are sick of it and have stopped surgical strikes and are now responding with an overwhelming bombardment.

You should be supporting the Israelis. When the Muslims suburbs (most of the Australians who originally lived there have already fled) near your area start putting bombs in nightclubs, buses and trains, and start shooting rockets into your suburb, I am sure you will be demanding that the Australian Army shoot back at the Muslim suburbs with the whole inventory.

To McAdam 101

You want philosophy now? OK, lets begin.

Do all human being have the same rights?

No. whereas the concept of equal rights may be a noble premise, in reality people are not equal and they should not be reflexively treated equally. Human beings are not equal in physical appearance, age, physical beauty, maturity, intelligence, or physical talents. Your premise is the usual socialist one that was originally penned by US slave owners, that that all people are created equal and have equal rights. This is something I do not accept. We only have to look at how Human Rights are APPLIED in western countries to know that "rights' are unequal.

"Human Rights" legislation invariably benefits selected minority groups, terrorists, criminals, and "refugees." It never benefits ordinary tax payers, the very ones who's money pays for these 'Human Rights" organisations and their well paid "commissioners" in the first place. When Andrew Bolt was being prosecuted under 18C, all of the various state and federal "Human Rights" organisations in Australia were missing in action. "Free Speech" may be a core human right, but it apparently does not apply to white people. As a white, dog owning, 4WD owning, working male who pays taxes, I therefore conclude that "Human Rights" do not apply to me.

But I do recognise that Jews and Muslims are equal in the Middle East. For 1400 years the Muslims have ethnically cleansed and forcibly converted Christens, Jews, Zoroastrians and pagans to set up largely monocultural Muslim societies. I think that the Jews have the same right to do to the Muslims, what the Muslims have been doing to everybody else for 1400 years

Dear LEGO, you wrote:- you were not aware "that Hitler accused the Jews of not building Ipods or microchips"....

It is obvious that Jews were not blamed by Nazis for not producing IPods and microchips but they were looked down upon the way you look down upon,in contempt, the Palestinians today. It is the mind set of assumed supremacy and dehumanizations of others that you and the Nazis have in common. And you have further substantiated it by your lecture on humans not being equal.

You say you have studied Islam and also say that Jews Christians and others were forcefully converted to Islam for past 1400 years and that you wish to avenge it now. Surely you have not studied Islam, for if you had you would never make such a hollow statement. Please consult the experts on the subject; Karen Armstrong for example, who finds that the allegation of use of force for spread of a Islam is false and cites the example of spread of Islam in the largest Muslim country of the world, Indonesia, by Muslim traders. And please think for a moment, what coercive force is being used today in USA and Europe for conversions? I am sure, you would kindly like to review you're statements.

In your last post you wrote; "It is a religion which is behind almost all of the terrorism now raging on this planet".
Nothing could be farther from truth. First terrorist act of unprecedented devastation in the region was blowing up of King David Hotel in Jerusalem by Irgun. And that too was blamed on Palestinians; that is were the terrorism came from. The list of terrorist acts by Irgun,Stern Gang and Hagana, is too long to be included in this post.

The basic point of the article that we are discussing, stands vindicated that there are people on Israeli side who consider Palestinians sub humans and cheer their massacre, as cutting the grass.

Best regards

NC

I’ll bet you went to the highest level in the HAMAS Madrasah . You show all the attributes of a well-drilled HAMAshee.

There this quip, which shows a limited knowledge of the world --and even the middle east (an absolute essential requirement for a believer in the religion of peace) << [Israel's] the most brutal regime of the current history>>. I would stack Israel’s policies and practices against any number of Arab or subcontinental Sharia based regimes, any day of the week!

And then there’s this blame-others-for-your-own-failings game: << Your distractions >> You are the one who keeps introducing these little asides about colonialism. But when you're found out, like a typical HAMASHee you scream “SPQR did it!”

And then there's your mastery of halal psychology! <<You start showing up frustration in your language – a sure indicator of the absence of sound reasoning with you! >> It's almost as bad as your halal history! LOL

You ask: << why. Why don’t you accept Impartial arbitration on the question of what is the occupied territory?>>
BECAUSE I WANT TO HEAR YOUR ANSWER!
But I tell you what, I will compromise, I will accept an independent third party’s definition
So long as I get to nominate the third party --I nominate my uncle Cedric as that third party—OK?

And then that other essential requirement of a good HAMAshee the ability to pretend you're something you're not :
<<humanity has moved on from the time when vanquished would be enslaved. Now there are prisoners of war kept under universally agreed rules. Rules also apply to the occupied territories also [you plead] >>
REEEEEEEEEEALY -so are you telling me that HAMAS & Hezbullah & co abide by such rules?

Then you're off to <<Human Rights and Justice are the higher values universally respected ....>> I laugh when I hear you appeal to higher values because I know you're are only pretending. The worst offenders of human rights are the Muslim terror groups.You only want to talk about “Human rights”when team Islam is getting its tale kicked

NC, you are a joke!

On the subject of sub-human. Do MUSLIMS consider Infidels sub-human? I had am Imam tell me, personally, that anyone who wasn't a Muslim was an animal & could be shot, no problem. So, yes they do.

Maybe the average Muslim isn't sub-human but it's not hard to see, by the graphic videos going around, that the IQ factor for most is definitely well below 90. Especially when they are warned that the area they are in is going to be bombed & Hamas tells them to stay there & be killed & they do.

Then there is the amount of suicide bombers. I especially like the one that was shot & they carried him away in a funeral procession without disarming him, & it went off. Dur... IQ? One has to ask," who considers whom "grass.""

Nutter: Have you no shame? If you were Australian you'd believe in a fair go. You don't.

No shame. No, not when it comes to dealing with sub-humans. Fair go? Yes I do but I'm not as gullible as to think I would get a fair go from Islamists.

Why wouldn't I identify myself to you? I wouldn't like to see you strap on a suicide vest & come & visit.... I'm only thinking of you. Then again... I just might, that'd be fun.

Hadi: All this - while crying yourself hoarse over the (non-existent) threat of HAMAS taking over the world.

It wasn't me who said that. It was the son of the founder of Hamas.

steelie: Do you really think that if they(Hamas) were given access to weaponry on a par with Israel.

Hamas would still get the $hit belted out of them because their IQ level is so low.

steelie: if mortar round had come from any distance behind the buildings. So the lives of probably scores of Palestinians, the belongings and memories of hundreds of families were sacrificed to get a better view.

Obviously Hamas knows this that why they put them there.

Is IQ function of religion? Is there a new study that we haven't heard of? Or is it just an other prejudiced and unsubstantiated loose talk that some friends have been posting. IQ and wisdom are two separate things and wisdom being what matters. I wonder what kind of person would be claiming to be wiser, when one of the wisest men in human history only confessed his ignorance; "I know, I know not"

I see that our discussion, which started on an extremely important issue of regional and global importance has now degenerated to loose talk, personal attacks and name calling; a sign that there is nothing more left to say. I must acknowledge that some of the posts were very informative, even those who opposed my point of view provided me a glimpse into their inner thoughts; I thank them.

Now, if you allow me, may I propose that we resolve; that we endorse the article written by Junaid that there indeed are a number of people in Israeli camp who fully support the brutalities unleashed on the Palestinians and rejoice in the "cutting of the grass". Those who dissent, may say so and then,I suggest, let's call it a day.

Thanks and best regards

Only if there was true justice in the world - LEGO and co will get the GOLD at every Olympics for both the HIGH JUMP and the LONG JUMP - for the way they make the GIANT leap from the real issue of savage brutality and impunity of the Zionist regime holding humanity hostage in the Middle East to how Islam “encourages female circumcisions”? *genius* *absolute genius* *thunderous applause*

The point is not whether Islam stands justifiably accused of all you accuse it of - that’s mere diversion! The moment we bring Islam into the equation,the focus has shifted and the “generically superior to the rest”, “militarily invincible” Zionist has won!

*Let's Pause*

*& Reflect*

Is there something going on here? The general population's biases against a religion being fed and exploited to further the cause of the Zionists?

For once - if we can separate Islam from the charred remains of an infant - does a different picture emerge? Or are we so consumed by our hatred - justified or not - of a religion that we don't see that charred body once belonged to a human child? Too young to meaningfully belong to any religion? Ok, 'Islam Bad', 'Very Bad!' BUT SHOW ME THE MATHEMATICAL EQUATION Where that equals the volume of human blood being shed on Gaza’s streets?

I take comfort in the fact that the abominable attitude so aptly demonstrated by LEGO and co here - has been the hall mark of groups from Ku Klux Klan in America to the white supremacists in South Africa - and look where they ended up?
What we’ve heard is nothing more than the typical arguments of a rapist -> “she deserved it, she asked for it”
Mazel tov! You stand exposed :)

@ McAdam --you see, you only proposed a ceasefire ten minutes ago –and already, in the best of HAMAShee traditions-- Hadi has almost immediately started firing rockets across the border.

I propose two additions to your ceasefire terms:
1) We amend your text to read " a number of people in Israeli camp who fully support the brutalities unleashed on the Palestinians...AND THERE ARE QUITE A NUMBER IN THE HAMAS CAMP WHO SUPPORT THE BRUTALITIES THEY UNLEASHED ON THE ISRAELIS"

2) And, just as importantly your side exiles two of your most scurrilous hotheads namely, SteeleRedux and Hadi (if they are not one and the same person) to exile on Elba.

_________________________________

@Hadi, re <<he point is not whether Islam stands justifiably accused of all you accuse it of...>> I think if you were honest (and I know that's a big ask) you would find that one on your side of the border claimed that Islam was *holier than thou* and that brought in the need to educate him about few facts of history.

On the subject of Israel there appears to be a high level of dishonesty on your side to pretend that HAMAS is innocent in this event.

Dear SPQR, your non serious post on a heart wrenching subject faced by the humanity, at this hour, is not in good taste, and I beg to be spared the honor of conversing with you, as you are the same person who misquoted Quran and kept insisting on your stand even after having been pointed out, that you had erred. You be the judge, what value is the opinion of a person, who does not care wether it is based on facts or not and of what use is such a conversation.

So, good bye and best regards

And that MacAdam illustrates why it is soooo hard to reason with you side.As does this:

<<the same person who misquoted Quran>>

<< I propose that we resolve; that we endorse the article written by Junaid that there indeed are a number of people in Israeli camp who fully support the brutalities unleashed on the Palestinians and rejoice in the "cutting of the grass">>

nutter: You fat coward?
A touch above my up Well I'm not fat, per se. As for coward. No. been there, done that, faced my demons & told 'em to, "Ef orf."

Now let's see. Why are you here in Australia nutter when you should be in Palestine waving a Green & White Flag, or in Syria/Iraq waving a Black Flag supporting your brothers. No guts eh, coward. Here's ya White Feather.

In fact shouldn't all you Jihadists be over there in the ME getting stuck into the Israeli's or in Syria/ Iraq supporting the New Caliphate., Hadi, Steelie, PeacefulPeace, McAdam, NC, Hypo, Abu, RBC, Eren, Killarney, JoM, Chek, Halduell & Dkit. Are you all cowards? Have you no shame? By the way, where's Poirot? Well at least Poirot goes & does a bit.

To McAdam.

Everybody looks down on other groups of people. It is a cultural universal. I am sure that you look down on Nazis and Ku Klux Klan members, even though you have not met even one of them in your whole life. You despise them because you know enough about their ideologies, values, attitudes and behaviours to realise that they oppose everything you believe in. Yet by some application of doublethink, you refuse to make the same connection with Muslims. And you compound your double standard by claiming that I should not do to Muslims what you routinely do to Nazis and Kluxers. (and One Nation supporters)

There is nothing wrong with identifying a group of people as dangerous, untrustworthy, or even your people's enemies, provided that your stereotype is accurate. I look at the dysfunctional behaviour of Muslim societies everywhere and I look at their ideology which supports it, and I can make a sound judgement that I oppose these people and everything they stand for. If it is wrong for me to consider Muslims as my people's enemies, then it is also wrong for you to make the same judgement about Nazis and Ku Klux Klan members.

I think you are smart enough to see that my reasoning is fair and sound.

It is also a cultural universal that every nation at war with another usually depicts the enemy as sub human. The British in 1914 claimed that the Germans bayoneted British nurses and Belgian babies. US Admiral Halsey was famous in WW2 for always referring to the Japs in the press as "yellow monkeys". The Germans referred to their enemies as "untermenschen". While Allah refers to non Muslims in the Koran as "the vilest forms of life" composed of "base matter."

Looks like Allah is a racist also. Go attack him.

On second thought, you better not. If the Muslims find out who you are, it may not be conducive to good health and a long life.

SPQR,
Your language keeps showing more and more frustration.
You nominate your “uncle Cedric” to adjudge occupied territory as an impartial third party, understandable. Your Israel too has an uncle for a impartial arbitrator – “Uncle Sam”.

Answer to my question brings out your complete disregard, quite like Israel, for the rest of the world.

For your Israel, FORCE is the only arbitrator. Israel uses force on the assumptions:
• That by air bombing civilians it can force Palestinians to submit, BUT, in fact, it is FORCING them to do to it what it is doing to them.

• That there will always be huge gap of force between it and the oppressed. Can’t see how it forced Lebanese to acquire their current resistance capability and how it forced the besieged Palestinians to acquire greater capability to inflict casualties in this assault compared with the last one. Time shows trends here.

• That its backer, US, will always have the same world dominance it had in the 20th century. Can’t see what has happened to the US influence in last about 15 years. What about in another 20 or so years? The rate at which the political and economic land-scape is fundamentally altering, US will soon have enough of its own concerns, than to bather about Israel, what then?

The current world has distinctly three players:
• The aging US on irreversible decline, with its young population growingly disgusted with Israel for its crimes against humanity and with the senior politicians for their support for Israel;
• Europe with its much stronger position against Israel’s crimes against humanity and (as seen by Israel) its malevolent (anti-Semitic) ghost not entirely dispelled yet; and
• Rest of the world predominantly outraged at Israel’s brutalities.

With an extremely limited space to manoeuvre Israel basically has two options:

1. Go for an impartial third party arbitration – trust the world - and achieve a sustainable peace; or
2. Keep digging graves for other and during the process, as history tells us, dig one for your own self.

Choice is yours!
Continued….

JUST AN OBSERVATION!

NC
First post: 31/07/2014 8:21:58 AM [Cutting the grass in the theatre of war]

Hadi
Two posts : 12/10/09/2013 9:04:39 PM & 10/09/2013 8:34:33 PM
No further posts till 31/07/2014 [Cutting the grass in the theatre of war]

McAdam
First post: 1/08/2014 2:01:53 AM [Cutting the grass in the theatre of war]

Coincidence –or someones support crew?

SPQR, Continued …..

Ignoring your distractions, refusing to reciprocate to your foul language and continuing the task of correcting your history, I will quote a present-day authority on religious history – Karen Armstrong.
On pages 24-25 of her book entitled “The Battle for God”(Happer Perennial) she compares the plight of 17th century Jews in Europe with those living in the Islamic world and concludes that:

• In Europe:
o Jews were not permitted to live outside the special districts known as “ghettoes”,
o The ghettoes were situated in unhealthy areas enclosed by high walls;
o The Jews were forced to wear distinctive dress, reduced to menial jobs with no large scale commercial ventures were permitted to them;
o The Jews were excluded from mainstream society.

• In Islamic world:
o Jews were not restricted to special areas the way they were in Europe, they could participate in mainstream commerce;
o Jews were not persecuted, as there was no tradition of anti-Semitism in the Islamic word;
o Jews were given full religious liberty and were able to run their own affairs according to their own laws.

The modern Europe in its childhood days was exposed to an Islam introduced by Crusaders. I myself saw few books on Islam in California University library US which talked about anything but Islam. In all probability, this is the type of literature that SPQRs of this age still keep referring to.

As repeatedly said in my previous posts, I am not for my religion vs your religion. I try to address this historic question only in the context of history.

West has matured since Crusades, more so, in comparison with many other societies. This age has brought more westerns close to Islam in recent years than in any other similar time-span in history – the issue was alluded to in a post.

Among many (I mean countless) cases I draw your attention SPQR to two:

o Hakeem Murad (ex Timothy John Winter– Cambridge UK) for an introduction to Islam-Utube
o Ernaud van Dorn (Netherlands) for a change in an ex-Islamphobe

Antony Loewenstein says -
along with Amira Hass, Gideon Levy is Israel's
other truly maverick journalist. Having worked
at "Haaretz," for over 20 years. He's spent
most of those years - writing solely on the
occupation.

"I want to write about what Israelis are doing on
my behalf." Levy said that the occupation had become
more brutal during the years of reporting.

"I can recall the famous scene during the first intifada,
broadcast on CBS, that showed Israeli soldiers breaking
the bones of Palestinians with stones. Everyone was
shocked by that scene and it was broadcast all over
the world. It was, we thought, the most terrible thing
we could imagine. Today I wouldn't even mention it because
kids are killed like flies."

Levy argues that Israelis have been conditioned to believe
that "Palestinians are not human beings like us," otherwise
"they would never be able to live with the thought that
they were doing such terrible things to other human beings."
Levi explains - world Jewry both supports and condons Israeli
brutality:

"For them, military strength is the only strength.
American Jews and in Australia too, offer the ultimate
self-orientation: "We are the ultimate victim" and nobody
else has the right living here, especially after the
Holocaust. Every time I hear this slogan that Israel is
the only democracy in the MIddle East, I don't know
whether to laugh or cry, because a state with one of the
most brutal and cruel military occupations in the world
isn't a democracy."

Levy calls himself an "anti-Zionist" although he (like
Loewenstein), believes Jews living in Israel have every
right to live there. He imagines a two-state solution -
(as do we all).

"Listen we absorbed over one million Russians in ten
years, more than half of them were not Jewish. So why,
for God's sake, can't we absorb half a million Palestinians
who were born here, who own this land, whose memories are
here, whose everything is here? They belong to here ten
times more than all the Russians and the Europeans ..."

Time for a radical re-thinking of the conflict.

Dear LEGO you wrote:-

"Everybody looks down on other groups of people. It is a cultural universal..."

No, it is not the case! There is no reason for any one to look down on others, provided one has the basics right; we all are the creation of the Same and One and the Only God. We all are descendants of same parents, Adam and Eve. What right have I to look down on or to be looked down upon by, own kith and kin. We must not hate each other, yet we should hate the evil if any one of us commits.

You also wrote "you look down on Nazis and Ku Klux Klan, .. If it is wrong for me to consider Muslims as my people's enemies, then it is also wrong for you to make the same judgement about Nazis and Ku Klux Klan members."

I am sorry, I do not see the logic. Nazis are Nazis, KKK is KKK and Muslins are Muslims and Jews are Jews. I will treat each on its merit and not group them together.

And then you wrote
"It is also a cultural universal that every nation at war with another usually depicts the enemy as sub human....Japs in the press as "yellow monkeys". ....

Yes it has happened in the past and it is happening in our times; remember the Vietnamese were projected as the evil and subjected to chemical and incendiary bombardment and Iraq has been ripped apart for possessing WMD. Imagine the plight of people who committed those atrocities on the innocent...they are doomed to burn in the hell of remorse for their evil deeds, hence the high suicide rate of Vietnam and Iraq veterans.

TO McAdam.

I know that religious people like your good self have trouble seeing self evident logic, but I will try again.

I am equating Muslims with Nazis as they are both religious/political social groups with much in common. Both groups advocate an extreme ideology which places themselves at the top of humanity, while claiming that people who are not part of their group are not really human. Both ideologies advocate extreme violence towards people who are not members of their group. Both ideologies are extremely anti Semitic. Both are noted for their extreme persecution of minorities. According the German Armaments Minister Albert Speer, Hitler even praised the Islamic faith as a warriors religion like the old Norse pagan religion (which the Nazis were trying to resurrect), far more suitable for Germany than pacifist Christianity.

But your premise appears to be, that Muslims and Nazis must be judged differently.

It seems like your own ideology needs a bit of work if it advocates Equality, and then says that some social groups should be more equal than others.

Now, you seem to admit that it has always been the case that combatants in wartime routinely view each other as sub human. Then why are you getting worked up over the Israelis doing the same thing that everybody else does? Are we once again seeing this Equality double standard which you seem to be practicing? You are judging the Israelis to a different standard to everybody else.

Continued! (Left over from last post)

Dear LEGO, deception is in the very nature of war. Propagandist has to dehumanize the enemy, otherwise the world and own public wouldn't swallow the intended atrocities, and to this end, may project white as black and black as white. Wiser ones aught to discern. Pitfall of propaganda is the risk of believing it and thus ending up standing on the quick sand of falsehood. Let me give you an example here. It is well documented that the terrorism was introduced in the region by right wing Zionist militant organizations. One of them namely, Irgun conducted the infamous King David Hotel Explosion. You know who was heading it then, Menachem Begin who later rose to be the prime minister of Israel. An other terrorist of the time was Yitzhak Shamir, a former Lehi fighter who also rose to be the prime minister of Israel.You see, terrorism is in the DNA of Israel. It is not in past only, terrorism continues even today, remember the assassination of Mahmoud Al-Mabhou by Israeli Mossad agents who travelled to Dubai on false Australian and European passports. And pleas google "Lavon Affair" and "USS Liberty" to know Israeli terrorism against USA, yes USA. And what is happening in Gaza? None other than terrorizing the Palestinians into submission; state terrorism. Yet the propagandist would like us to believe that it is that stone throwing boy or a fringe group in some Muslim country who initiated and conducts all the terrorism in the world. And gullible of the world have fallen for it.

And then you wrote
"Allah refers to non Muslims in the Koran as " composed of "base matter."

I am not aware of such a Quranic injunction and doubt very much if it exists at all, as to how could God say any thing like this about His own creation; for they too are His creation after all. Please recheck and kindly get back to me with reference, it will be addition to my knowledge and I'll thank you for that.

Best regards

NC,

Your fundamentalist slip is showing.

Firstly, you cocksurely predict the future of the world: This will happen …and then that will happen blah, blah, blah –a regular Nostradamus! LOL

Then, you arrogantly appoint yourself spokes thing-a-me for the <<the rest of the world>> LOL

Some of your stuff reads like it’s been cut and pasted from a kindy reader –such as this:<<Go for an impartial third party arbitration – trust the world - and achieve a sustainable peace; >> While others reads like it’s from some from a Boys Own adventure thriller : <<Keep digging graves for other and during the process, as history tells us, dig one for your own self>>. (really wild stuff!)

However, despite your arrogance assertions of what << the rest of the world>> will do.The fact you have repeated refused to enunciate your own definition of occupied territory makes me think that you may not be as confident of the <<rest of the world’s>> reaction as you like to pretend. Indeed, there is good possibility that when the <<rest of the world>> gets down to it. Places like The Philippines , Thailand, Nigeria, South Sudan, Myanmar, China, Russia (and practically every country with a large immigrant Muslim population) will realize that they have a Palestinian like problem in their own back yard from Islamic groups who are singing the language of victimhood whilst bombing every infidel in sight. And they will choose not to play out your preferred fantasy. And we are already some evidence of that in Egypt’s opposition to Hamas and Saudi’s championing of anti –Brotherhood forces--sorry to expose you to such unpleasant possibilities!

Haven't left for the ME yet McAdam? I'm sorry Foxy, I'd left you off the list.

So with you explanation of Israeli Terrorists in the past that excuses Islam from it's terror acts now. I thought you were expounding that Islam was above that sort of thing. Obviously not. So you are using that as an excuse to perpetrate terror on innocent Israeli citizens even though not very successfully.

Foxy: Levy calls himself an "anti-Zionist" although he (like
Loewenstein), believes Jews living in Israel have every right to live there. He imagines a two-state solution - (as do we all).

This is no different to the LNP/ALP divide in Australia. Big deal. Why a two State solution. Why not, like Singapore where everybody live intermingled in peace & harmony. Nope, Israel has got its original Nation back & the Muslims hate anyone that isn't Muslim as shown by the ISIL march for the New Caliphate.

McAdam: Allah refers to non Muslims in the Koran as " composed of "base matter." I am not aware of such a Quranic injunction and doubt very much if it exists at all,

A bit of Poetic Licence there, but close. I have seen similar & heard many Imams on uTube expounding that very thing.

Dear Jayb,

Actually, it's my fault. I missed giving the end
of that quote. Levy did add :

"After this solution will take place, we just may realise
that it's better for both sides to federate or become
one state."

Despit having a very high profile in Israel, Levy's
media appearances have significiantly decreased in recent
years. Levy used to have a weekly television show:
but is now rarely asked to participate on radio or
television talk shows: "They take someone from the extreme
Right only ... There have been tensions at "Haaretz"
but generally they can live with me..." Although Levy
receives hate mail, including death threats, he believes
that some reaction is better than indifference."

Levy holds the Israeli media heavily responsible for
hiding the true face of the occupation and showing
"our" victims but never "their" victims in the same light.

"We have a deeper-problem of self-censorship, not because
somebody tells them to be like this, but because they
believe that their place is to sit in the bulldozer who
ruins the house and not with the families who are left behind.
If they show something they will show the bulldozer and not
the families who are left. They will tell you about the
so-called reasons why the house was demolished but they
will never check. They will say today Israel assassinated a
big terrorist, but they will never check whether he was such a
big terrorist. Every settler who is scratched by a stone
will get two pages in a newspaper and nobody will mention
the Palestinian family who lost three children. It's easier
for Israelis to dismiss the journalist Amira (Hass) because
she lives in Ramallah and not here. With me it is harder
because I am here and part of it."

"I think deep in their hearts, most Israelis are really
racist." Levy compares present-day Israel to apartheid in
South Africa.

Dear Jayb, you wrote " Allah refers to non Muslims in the Koran as " composed of "base matter." (Because) "I have seen similar & heard many Imams on uTube expounding that very thing."

That's it? Unnamed uTube clips as a proof for the exact wording of Quran?

You'll agree that reference to the primary source is necessary, to ascertain the truth, particularly in matters of such important nature. So please consult Quran, which is readily available every where and kindly do guide me with the exact wording and reference; I'll be grateful and waiting.

Best regards

NC (continued)
Now on to those “distractions” which you keep introducing --but blaming others for.

You cheery picked --ONE source–which talks of a ONE tiny fragment of history-- and in true fundamentalist style declared it proves Islam was all lovey-dovey with the Jews and by extension everyone else . A pretty good sign that you have a rusted-on belief system not open to challenge or modification!

Then you say: <<The modern Europe in its childhood days was exposed to an Islam introduced by Crusaders. >> A rather strange definition of “modern” –but we’ll let that pass! It’s a safe guess you chose that date/event because it allows you to play to the accompaniment of that old Islamic apologia that the crusades were an aggressive invasion of peace loving Muslim territory.

I have left the crusades as a marker , but added a more representative,though still, yet, the tiniest sliver of how Islam *introduced* itself:
The First Crusade (1096–1099)
1453 Turks capture and rape Constantinople..
1456 Turks capture Athens.
1456 Turks attack Belgrade
1463 Turks conquer Bosnia.
1467 Turks conquer Herzegovina ..
1480 Turks attack Italy .
1492 Turks invade Hungary.
1492 Finally, Moorish occupation & colonisation of Spain is thrown off!
1493 Turks invade Dalmatia and Croatia are invaded by the Turks.
1518 Khayar al-Din btter known as Barbarossa, assumes command off the Muslim corsair fleet of the Barbary pirates. He would go on to terrorise Western shipping murdering --or kidnapping European mariners & selling them to Arab slavers.
1529 First attack and siege on Vienna (Austria)
1565 Turks attack Malta

As for: << I myself saw few books on Islam in California University library US which talked about anything but Islam.>> :O
Why ever should they?
Islam’s main relevance in the West today is that the “study” of it provides an all too easy leg-up for *SECOND/THIRD RATE ACADEMICS* who are seeking to acquire a seat on the gravy train by playing at identity politics (since they can’t cut it in any constructive field).

To McAdam

I know that the Israelis practiced terrorism to get their nation started but hardly equates to approval of terrorists of any group today doing the same thing.

Israel exists, and that is a complete and total affront to Muslims, who like the Nazis believe that where one of their soldiers stand, that is their territory forever. That is the only reason why they want Israel exterminated. If somebody wanted to exterminate me, then I really do not give a damn for their human rights. The entire Middle East was once primarily Christian with a lot a Jews, Samaritans and Zoroastrians. Islam has ethically cleansed almost the whole lot of them, as is presently working on the survivors. The message Muslims gave them was get out, convert, become a second class citizen paying extortionate taxes, or die. How you can defend Muslims when one of their victims turns the table on them is beyond me.

Here is some Koran and Sura's for you.

Koran 70:39
We have created the unbelievers out of base matters.

Koran 98:1-8
The unbelievers among the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.

9:123: “O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the pious.”

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Sura (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

SPQR,
The readers, I am sure, notice two types of posts:

• Graffiti posts: full of foul language, totally devoid of substance and carrying statements they would never dare to make in front of real audience who can see them (by SPQRs); and

• Responsible posts: polite, reasoning, full of substance and carrying statements that can be presented in front of any audience (by SteeleRedux, Foxy, McAdam and few others)

You have not answered my question as to why you fear the third party-arbitration.

In your second post of 6 Aug, characteristically devoid of substance, you don’t make a fact-based comment on Karen Armstrong’s observations contained in my post of 5 Aug on one of the main topics of your Graffiti posts. Instead, you partly list some events from 1453-1565 totally ignoring the havoc the Portuguese and Spanish forces bombing the coastal cities initiated in Africa and India in the same period and other Colonial powers continued and perfected it in Africa, Asia and South-East Asia for next over 3 centuries.

Back to the main subject: You are aware of what another person of conscience, Gideon Levy –a known Israeli journalist, wants the world to know about the ground realities:

• “occupation has become more brutal”- (correct your definition of occupation, SPQR);
• “kids are being killed like flies”;

• Israelis have been conditioned to believe that “Palestinians are not human beings”- an observation echoing in the Graffiti posts;

• Israel “with one of the most brutal and cruel military occupation in the world isn’t a democracy”;

• “It’s all Hamas’ fault, right Israel?”, How close to Junaid’s observation; and
• With all that “Israel’s hands are clean and their consciences are quite – SO QUIET YOU COULD CRY”.

The reality has found its way even into the Israeli and US press through people of conscience like Levy. As for the press of the rest of the world, it is in a state of shock on brutalities unprecedented in the modern memory.

Step out of your make-belief world, have a look at the world press and witness the reality

Dear Jayb,

Your vitriol, ignorance, and bias, makes a mockery
of reasoned discussion in this forum.

Shame on you!

Interesting report

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2717564/Gaza-s-72-hour-ceasefire-enters-second-day-ahead-peace-talks-Cairo-Hamas-call-internationally-funded-reconstruction-region.html

You still here Foxy, xxxooxxxoo,

Dear Jayb,

Right back at you!

Much better.

Dear LEGO, you wrote
"Here is some Koran and Sura's for you.
Koran 70:39
We have created the unbelievers out of base matters."

This you provide as proof for your statement that "God is racist as He says in Quran that He created unbelievers from base matters.

Copied below, dear LEGO is the actual text in original Arabic Language along with English translation by Pickthal:-

Nay, verily. Lo! We created them from what they know.

Now a person of conscience in your place should apologize and hang his/her head in shame for a lie of this magnitude. I leave it you,what you choose.

Best regards
PS:- unfortunately the software can not carry the Arabic language. I give the reference again for those who wish to see for themselves in Quran, in Arabic too; It is Surat Al-Ma`rij, sentence 39

McAdam: Nay, verily. Lo! We created them from what they know.

That tell me that Infidels MUST be superior to Muslims because Muslims have a very low IQ.

It also tells me that there is more than one God.

Isn't there somewhere where it says that there is more than one mane for God but only the Camel knows the real one.

& "The Nay, verily, Lo!" bit means that they are having a laugh at Muslims expense.

Why haven't you gone & done you bit for Allah like it says in Sura (4.95), or are you waiting for something to happen here?

Dear Jayb, you wrote:-
"McAdam: Nay, verily. Lo! We created them from what they know.

That tell me that Infidels MUST be superior to Muslims because Muslims have a very low IQ."

Do I take it that your stand today is that the verse, translation of which, I copied is indeed in Quran and not the one your friend posted without verifying and repeated without verifying and you earlier confirmed to be genuine, without verifying, on the authority of some uTube clips that you had seen.

Now this verse from Quran tells you that Muslims have a very low IQ? And this way of understanding and this logic, you present as proof of your "superior IQ"
May God help you and your "superior IQ" good luck.

Best regards

What a heart-wrenching site! The zealots representing the ‘superior form of creation’ called the Zionist - our friends Jayb and SPQR - reduced to being nothing more than that annoying kid in The Simpsons whose only contribution to the world is -> uttering a shrill ‘HA HA’ ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo ) at everyone and everything. Best to leave you alone with a little piece of advice, you are guilty and you know it! But You do ‘have the right to remain *Silent*’ -> *Exercise it* :)

Coming to our ‘dog owning, 4wd owning, White’ friend LEGO who always seems in a foul mood and mad at everything -> possibly the side-effects of those anti-conscience tablets that are a must for successfully digesting the Zionist propaganda without throwing up.

To LEGO

The special variety of ‘non-religious’ people like your not-so-pleasant self can’t spot the fly resting on the tip of their nose but are quick and eager to point out any perceived flaws on the lunar surface.

The self-defeating logic in your arguments is *DEFEANING*

1) Exhibit 1: LEGO says “which places themselves at the top of humanity, while claiming that people who are not part of their group are not really human” <- Talking about Zionists or the Jews here? If this were an episode of the ‘Family Feud’ -> Survey would definitely have Zionist as the number one answer :)
“Gentiles were born only to serve us”, rings a bell? and this man is considered a teacher by the political leadership of the Zionist entity… not some lunatic on the fringes of society. Countless examples of this mentality exhibited not just in words but actions constantly - but for that you need to open your eyes

As the old saying goes you can bring a jackass to the water – but can’t make ‘him’ drink it

CONTD...

CONTD...

If your logic of equating groups to Ku Klux Klan and white Supremacists is based on certain differentiating ‘attributes’– I am sure Zionists would have made the list, Unless of course the process is inverted whereby attributes are assigned on demand to a pre-selected group to justify the pre-existing bias and hatred.
The statements emanating from the fine Zionist specimen on this forum are there for all to see in terms of pompously proclaiming Palestinians and Muslims overall to be sub-human.

2) Exhibit 2: LEGO says “Both ideologies advocate extreme violence towards people who are not members of their group”. You only have to open your eyes to see the extreme violence being perpetrated and by whom and for the last how many years?
Even in the present conflict, 3 Civilians on the Israeli side compared to _____ *fill in the blanks* on the Palestinian side. A bit of exercise to stimulate those neurons, do some googgling and find out yourself, some fresh perspective never hurt anybody.
You get paid to move to Israel if you are a Jew – from anywhere in the world
You get bombed to demand the right to return to your homeland if you are a Muslim

“people who are not members of their group”? HA!
How many courses of anti-conscience tablets does it take to reach your level? Conscience can be such a burden, eh?

3) Exhibit 3: LEGO says “Now, you seem to admit that it has always been the case that combatants in wartime routinely view each other as sub human. Then why are you getting worked up over the Israelis doing the same thing that everybody else does?”

Because of certain dimwits who mistake this propaganda for real history and facts and formulate their opinions and general outlook towards life based on this vile filth spoon-fed to them.
If everyone saw it for what it truly is, we wouldn’t be having this discussion Mr LEGO

CONTD...

4) Exibit 4: LEGO Says “I know that the Israelis practiced terrorism to get their nation started but hardly equates to approval of terrorists of any group today doing the same thing.” And Then Goes On to Say “How you can defend Muslims when one of their victims turns the table on them is beyond me”

When it comes to Palestinians -> “hardly equates to approval of terrorists of any group today”
When it comes to the Zionists -> “How you can defend Muslims when one of their victims turns the table on them is beyond me”

Even if your – PREPOSTEROUS – contention of Muslims forcibly converting the natives and taking over the Middle East is accepted to be true – by your own logic – it “hardly equates to approval of terrorists of any group today doing the same thing?” Love the choice of words when it comes to the Zionists -> “practiced terrorism”…’Practiced’.... Simple harmless people going about their business, one son practices medicine and the other terrorism, what a sweet perfect world! *little house on the prairie* *Koochie Koochie Koo*
Aw :)

5) Exhibit 5: LEGO Says “who like the Nazis believe that where one of their soldiers stand, that is their territory forever” <- This one just takes the cake!
That is what the Zionists believe and have been believing - with ‘in your face distain’ - for the past half a century -> remember the twisted line of reasoning presented by our Zionist stalwarts on the forum, lecturing the world about the “Occupied Territory” Versus “Captured Territory”?

With this ‘might is right’ line of reasoning in control of a 4wd – I fear for all the cyclists and Nissan Micras on the road

</eom>

NC,

What any discerning reading could not fail to notice is:

1) YOU, have serious retention issues.You start out making wild claims like this :
<<The modern Europe in its childhood days was exposed to an Islam introduced by Crusaders.>>
And when someone debunks it, pointing out:
This is *really* how Islam << introduced >> itself to Europe
<<1453 Turks capture and rape Constantinople..
1456 Turks capture Athens.
1456 Turks attack Belgrade…>>

Your only response is “ you partly list some events from 1453-1565 totally ignoring the havoc the Portuguese and Spanish forces bombing the coastal cities initiated in Africa and India …

What!
What a joke!
Can you even remember the point you were trying to make ten lines ago! LOL

2) MCADAM, would make an ideal New Testament Pharisees sticking rigidly to the letter of his translation –when it suits –and only when it suits

3) Hadi, is still trying to force round pegs into square holes <<if SPQR and Jayb and Lego don’t swallow out line they must be Zoinists!>>
Actually, NC, the <<foul language, totally devoid of substance>> you keep hearing is coming from Hadi!

4) And Lexi (or Foxy as she is known by this week), just wants to be noticed.

And here’s a puzzle for you NC in response to this rant of yours << [SPQR, JAYD & Lego] would never dare to make in front of real audience who can see them>> So here’s your test. Foxy has told of the anti-Zionist authors lecturers opening pedaling their wares in Israel (as she does EVERYTIME one of these threads open) BUT, how many anti-Hamas and anti-Islamic authors /lecturers can you name in openly operating in Hamas controlled territory. I asked this of Foxy on another thread and skedaddled like a …like a…like a FOX

Dear McAdam,

On your response to yet another liar about Quran “Now a person of conscience in your place should apologize and hang his/her head in shame for a lie of this magnitude. I leave it you, what you choose.” (Your post 6 Aug 10:11 PM)

Do you seriously expect conscience in these remote-controlled robots designed exclusively to spread misinformation?

The designers are committing every crime against humanity one can think of and robots are busy trying to deflect attentions from these crimes. They don’t care how false their statements are, as long as you get distracted and start convincing them.

SPQR,
Like I said before, you don’t care how false your quotes are on history or religion, as long as I get distracted and start convincing you.

Briefly, The Crusades started in 11th century with Jews as their first target. This and the following century is when the literature under question was passed on to Europe. You quote events of about 3 centuries after that for the phenomenon. No kidding?

Turks warring in Europe was a struggle for influence that went on in nations of the day – Look at the contemporary events in Europe and also European incursion into Africa, Middle East and India, for a fuller picture – Your problem is (as discussed in detail before) that you see that behaviour in Muslims only.

On the ground realities: No response from you to Gideon Levy observations.

Perhaps you have sensed that there is a huge number of other people of conscience (from Israel, US and Europe) that I plan to quote and seek your response – leave aside the countless in the rest of the word.

Also no response “why do you fear impartial third part arbitration”, Your Israel is globally isolated – you can’t face the world either.
And yes, I mean that they “would never dare to make in front of real audience who can see them”. Doubt it? Simple test: I send you the statements the posts and you make it public with your true identity.

No, you will not.

Dear SPQR, you wrote MCADAM, ...sticking rigidly to the letter of his translation –when it suits –and only when it suits.

Are you saying that

"We have created the unbelievers out of base matters." as quoted by your friend and translation of Pickthal as I submitted are translations of the same verse, same words? Do I get you right, is this what you have said?

Now please see this exact Arabic wording of verse 70:39' in roman script:-

Kallaaa innaa khalaq nahum mimmaa ya'lamoon

It translates word by word as follows:-

Kallaaa ; Nay, verily lo

Khalaq nahum; We created them

Mimmaa; from

Ya'lamoon; What they know

Please tell me and tell the Arabic understanding world; which word in the verse translate as "unbelievers" and which word translates as " base matter"

I know you have no answer for you have repeatedly shown yourself to be a person who does not care wether he speaks the truth or not and for this reason, I had requested you to kindly spare me the honor of conversing with you. Will you please?

Best regards

McAdam,

This is exactly what makes you a good New Testiment Pharisee --or one-eyed fundamentalist

<<I know you have no answer for you have repeatedly shown yourself to be a person who does not care wether he speaks the truth>>

If you are so big on veracity --back up this:
<<you have repeatedly shown yourself to be a person who does not care wether he speaks the truth>>

As for this bit of tripe <<kindly spare me the honor of conversing with you>> LOL When did I ask you to converse with me?
I was talking about you (reviewing you performance) NOT TALKING TO YOU

McAdam: you present as proof of your "superior IQ"

One only has to look at the list of Nobel Prize winners since its inception for confirmation. Only 2 Muslims & one of them was a Terrorist.

Hadi: The designers are committing every crime against humanity one can think of.

Hey we're not the ones in Syria/Iraq murdering innocent people, like Christians, Shite other Muslim Sects & the Yazidi Sect in the name of Allah. Mass shootings, Beheadings & Stoning's. Yep, every crime against humanity.

McAdam: Khalaq nahum; We created them.

"We" (Us Gods) created "them" Created who? (unbelievers?) Just who are the Gods talking about?

Mimmaa; from

Ya'lamoon; "What they know" Well it's obvious that the Unbelievers know a lot more than believers who only get all their knowledge from a false book called the Koran. Obvious form the Islamic list of Nobel Engineering, Science & anything else awards. Even the Hindu's & Buddhist's out rank Islamists. So I guess we know a lot more than Islamists. Thanks Gods.

@SPQR, Jayb
How much did it cost to go through the conscience-bypass surgery and become whatever it is you are? How much is the recovery time? And is it true that you don't feel any shame, guilt or humiliation? Wow *Fascinating*
Btw here is what the high-IQ Nobel Laureates thought of the Zionist entity
"If one has to refer to any of the parties as a terrorist state, one might refer to the Israeli government, because they are the people who are slaughtering defenseless and innocent Arabs in the occupied territories.”
Nelson Mandela

"What is happening in Palestine is a crime we can put on the same plane as what happened at Auschwitz. A sense of impunity characterises the Israeli people and its army."
José Saramago

"We call on the UN and governments across the world to take immediate steps to implement a comprehensive and legally binding military embargo on Israel, similar to that imposed on South Africa during apartheid.
Governments that express solidarity with the Palestinian people in Gaza, facing the brunt of Israel’s militarism, atrocities and impunity, must start with cutting all military relations with Israel. Palestinians today need effective solidarity, not charity."
Signed by:
Jody Williams, Nobel Peace Laureate, US
Adolfo Peres Esquivel, Nobel Peace Laureate, Argentina
Betty Williams, Nobel Peace Laureate, Northern Ireland
Arch. Desmond Tutu, Nobel Peace Laureate, South Africa
Liz Lochhead, national poet for Scotland, UK
Mairead Maguire, Nobel Peace Laureate, Ireland
Rigoberta Menchú, Nobel Peace Laureate, Guatemala
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/laureates-celebrities-military.html

As the Author points out, Einstein's prophetic letter <- The one with, apparently, the highest IQ of em all
"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine."

Once again Congratulations on the successful surgery, the signs are indeed promising!

Hadi: And is it true that you don't feel any shame, guilt or humiliation? Wow *Fascinating*

No? Why should I? Well, not the shame, guilt & humiliation that would cause me to disfigure, murder or force my daughters to become suicide bombers if they dared get friendly with an infidel. Ay!

I didn't hide Rockets in Schools & Hospitals where people were taking refuge. I didn't fire Mortars from Schools & Hospitals where people were taking refuge. Did I? I didn't spend all the Aid money meant for the Palestinians in Gaza on building tunnels into Israel to murder civilians. Did I? I don't teach my children, in kindergarten, to hate & kill infidels. Do I? I don't send young girls with suicide vests to bomb innocent people on the way to work. Do I? So why should I feel any guilt & shame or Humiliation?

Do you? Have you given any thought to complying with Sura (4.95) in the ME, or are you a coward?

Dear Jayab, you wrote:-

Khalaq nahum; We created them.

"We" (Us Gods) ............

But first, any remorse on your false assertion that the "base matters" version was actual quotation from Quran?

And now about your understanding that "We" here implies more than one God. It unveils your absence of knowledge on the subject as "we" in such situations is used for singular in Arabic and most of other oriental languages. That is elementary, dear Jayb, elementary.

And now you have changed the subject once again and have started attacking Quran itself and using hateful language,in so doing. Is it that you have run out of decency and reasonable argument?

Best regards

Hi Hadi. En guard.

Exhibit 1. Could you give us the source of your Jewish quote? Because it looks like great ammunition to me. The next time a Jew gets uppity and claims that white people are racists, I can toss that one right back at him/her. I have always thought that Mohammad was greatly influenced by Jewish social rejectionist culture when he invented Islam, and your quote seems to confirm it.

Exhibit 2. My premise directed at McAdam was in response to his assertion that it was wrong to judge entire groups of people. My reply was that everybody does that, and your own judgement about "Zionists" confirms it. Thank you for proving my premise.

Exhibit 3. My premise was that it is a cultural universal that every combatant routinely views the enemy as sub human, which McAdam agree with. According to your logic, McAdam (who agrees with your cause) must be a "dimwit" also.

Exhibit 4. It is a cultural universal that former enemies can become friendly with each other at a later date. Japan and Australia are an example. Japan once used terrorism against Australia but we don't hold it against them now. The Israelis were the West's enemies using terrorism against our soldiers, but unlike Muslims, they did not target our civilians. The Jews are not fighting our soldiers any longer and our societies have much in common. Our enemies today are the Muslims, who hijack our aircraft, put bombs in our buses, trains and aircraft, kill Olympic Athletes at the Olympic games, and who terrorise our people through criminal behaviour in our own suburbs.

The funny thing is, you people display your hatred of us every day then wonder why we support your enemies.

Exhibit 5. I know that the Jews think that Israel belongs to them for religious reasons, and the Muslims think the same way. The difference is, that the Muslims think that the entire world belongs to them and that anywhere their armies once stood is Muslim land forever. If every culture thought like that, the entire world would be enveloped inflames.

NC,
<< you don’t care how false your quotes are on history or religion>>
What false quotes were those old chap?
I have a feeling with that unless everything quoted/cited says your creed is the best thing since slice bread you deem it false.
Typical fundy!

<<Briefly, The Crusades started in 11th century… and the following century is when the literature under question was passed on to Europe>>
What?
Sooooo you were talking about Islams being << introduced>> to Europe right?
Get that term << introduced>> , So what does that have to do with << when the literature under question was passed on to Europe>>
I think I know what you are alluding to, but it has bugger-all to do with Islam being <<introduced>> to Europe!

<<on the ground realities: No response from you to Gideon Levy observations>>
Yes –did you miss this:.
And here’s a puzzle for you NC in response to this rant of yours << [SPQR, JAYD & Lego] would never dare to make in front of real audience who can see them>> So here’s your test. Foxy has told of the anti-Zionist authors lecturers [like Levy] opening pedaling their wares in Israel (as she does EVERYTIME one of these threads open) BUT, how many anti-Hamas and anti-Islamic authors /lecturers can you name in openly operating in Hamas controlled territory

<<Also no response “why do you fear impartial third part arbitration”>>
LOL Anyone YOU would nominate as an << impartial third part arbitration>> Would be as warped as you or Hadi or McAdam!

<< Your Israel is globally isolated >>
There is your retention problem again , either that, or deficiencies in your programming.
It aint <<my Israel>> my only concern is the narrow one-eyed view that those in team Islam are pushing

___________________

Hadi,

Do us a favour, stop waffling on about human rights. The truth is you couldn't give a damn about such things. You are just here to barrack for team Islam. There a hundreds of places in the world where islamic extremists are maiming and murdering and you couldn't give a stuff!

McAdam: any remorse on your false assertion that the "base matters" version was actual quotation from Quran?

That wasn't me that was LEGO.

McAdam: on the subject as "we" in such situations is used for singular in Arabic and most of other oriental languages.

Oh! the Royal "We," but even that refers to the Royal family. "We" & "Us" is, of course, used in the Jewish Torah & the Christian Bible. Long before the Koran. It stems from a time before Monotheism & the consolidation of all the Old Gods in the Levant area into one by King Ahab, if I remember right & I do.

McAdam: started attacking Quran itself and using hateful language,in so doing.

That wasn't hateful language, that was pure discussion on interpretation. Can't you tell the difference, or is that not allowed in Islam.

McAdam, with regards the people that signed the BDS Petition. I know the BDS is a Palestinian Lobby group that threatens peoples Careers if they don't agree with them. People are allowed in the West to voice their descent & they don't get their heads chopped off for it. Have you noticed that? It really means nothing. There are even more people that hold the opposite view, without being threatened.

From the BDS Website: Cynthia McKinney, and she was at the National Summit in Washington along with Phil Weiss this year, and they joined Walt in talking about the Lobby. She discussed how the Lobby was powerful enough to wreck her career and that of others.

Do you? Have you given any thought to complying with Sura (4.95) in the ME, or are you a coward?

Jayb, SPQR
The standard *divert* and run-to-the-next-BIG-LIE tactics of yours haven’t really got much traction in this discussion so your need to stoop ever lower and lower– in defense of the unspeakable and indefensible atrocities – is completely recognizable and understandable.
I have even got a bet going on bet365.com as to whom, out of you two fine Zionist specimens, will win the race to the bottom of the ‘bottomless’ pit of shamelessness… you two seem adamant to outdo each other, all the makings of an incredibly exciting and close finish! *Excellent*

Please read the below and self-diagnose, especially the last line -> it might be a bit of a *Eureka* moment for you – you can thank me later! :-)

“When our patterns of behaviour habitually cause problems and pain for others, most of us reflect upon or think about those behaviours with a sense of both shame and guilt. We feel bad for doing wrong and strive not to do similar things again. And, we feel ashamed of ourselves and vow to be better persons. Disturbed and disordered characters don’t engage in this kind of thinking.”
“Lacking an appropriate sense of guilt, and without a sufficient sense of shame, they don’t engage in the same kind of reflective thinking that enables most of us to grow, change, and improve ourselves”

Your strategy - to ensure the world’s attention remains fixated on the “crazed Mozlem fanatic” while the rabid Zionist regime’s most heinous of crimes go largely unpunished - is way past its 'best before date'. You may insist on lingering on with it for a while but honestly, the world has had enough of your debased drivel.
Those “fanatical ‘Mozlem’ kingdoms of South America” are leading the charge with his highness Sheikh Evo Morales declaring Israel to be a __ state? *fill in the blanks*
Yes – that’s right ‘Terrorist', classic case of spitting towards the sky and having it land back on your own Zionist face *ouch*, what was intended to stick to the other side is inevitably beginning to stick onto the original inventors of terrorism

Quick Status Update of where we stand after a bit of talking to each other and a lot of talking at each other

Our Zionist friends here consider
1) Palestinians to be sub-human (and Muslims overall)
2) Palestinians to not be deserving of a free State of their own
3) Jews to be the ‘sole proprietor’ of the ‘holy land’
4) And by implication -> Jews to be the superior forms of creation – with rest of the humanity put here just to serve them (*Rabbi Ovadia Yosef * "The sole purpose of non-Jews is to serve Jews". He said that Gentiles served a divine purpose: "Why are Gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat. That is why Gentiles were created”)

Yes, clearly, the Palestinians are to blame for the bloodshed in the middle-east, bloody obvious it is! The other side is composed of a perfectly reasonable set of individuals who only ‘practiced’ terrorism to get their nation started and continue ‘practicing’ ethnic cleansing since to continue the 'nation building'…. Hey! Its only fair! C’mon you gotta vacate the land you occupied and then build on the land you vacated, eh? Otherwise what’s the point? And the *cycle* continues under one wacko pretext or another!

All of the above is fully traceable in the comments posted on this site. This is the mentality we are dealing with!
*Hysterical laughter* or *Mournful sobbing*, take your pick, there isn't much else in-between for a human with even an iota of conscience intact!

Hadi, Hadi, Hadi ...a great reading of the script ...BUT IT'S THE WRONG SCRIPT!

Neither Jayb , Lego or me are Zionist! -- just as neither you, nor NC, or McAdams are human rights aficionados.

Tell you what, run off back to your master and get him to re-install your software. You want the script that you'd use when you're ranting to non-believers(not Zionists), Ok?

I don't actually think that there are any Jews or Zionists (difference? Is that like Southern Baptists & Jehovah Witnesses) involved in this discussion. I have stated before I'm Muslims worst nightmare.... an Atheist. I've heard what Islamists do to Atheists. Not nice.

As regards the list. If that's what you think, fine, I don't care. I don't have to be ashamed of my beliefs just because they are not the same as yours. I have done the research & come to the conclusion that Islamists are all idiots. See the entire list of Nobel Prize winners.
Aren't you ashamed to be a Muslim? I would be.

Where about on the scale do you put yourself, liberal, moderate or fanatic Muslim?

People here's some news for you ...

BOTH side are wrong.

BOTH sides are terrorists

BOTH sides murder

BOTH sides have their immoral "excuses" for civilian murders

BOTH sides are horribly violent

BOTH sides want to dominate

Now do you get it? BOTH side are wrong.

Dear Jayb, you wrote on 8 August:-

"McAdam: any remorse on your false assertion that the "base matters" version was actual quotation from Quran?

That wasn't me that was LEGO."

By way of refreshing your memory, copied below is from YOUR post of 6 August:-

("McAdam: Allah refers to non Muslims in the Koran as " composed of "base matter." I am not aware of such a Quranic injunction and doubt very much if it exists at all,

A bit of Poetic Licence there, but close. I have seen similar & heard many Imams on uTube expounding that very thing.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 9:25:06 AM")

Now dear Jayb, it was you who confirmed that fabrication to be authentic on the authority of some uTube clips, but if now you want to disassociate from confirming the authenticity of that fake post, it is fine with me.

Best regards

Dear Jayb, you wrote; "I've heard what Islamists do to Atheists. Not nice."

If you are serious, and only if you are serious then please consider the fact that you have not been reading what really this religion Islam is about. Primary source is always the best option. I recommend a short chapter of six lines; chapter 109 titled "The Disbelievers", in Quran and I copy its last line here:-
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. (Pickthal)

What is it to me dear Jayb as to what is your religion? except that if I notice, I could indicate a better option to you, for your good, and that too only if you please. Other wise good luck to you with your ways.

I wonder if we have the wisdom and freedom to free ourselves from the stereotypes fed into our systems by the hate mongers that exist on all sides.

Best regard

@LEGO
Thanks for detailing your thought-process behind these pearls of wisdom. We can go on n on, enunciating and elucidating the comprehensive flaws in your logic, still, and the result would be the same. So let me just quickly re-assure you, dimwit was and is still meant for you and you only considering your repeated failure to see the difference between acknowledging propaganda, recognizing it as such AND substituting History and Facts with Propaganda in your head. So no one’s stealing your glory!
I think I now get you! You’re not pro-Zionist or Pro-Jewish you are just anti-Muslim?
I respect the honesty and I completely understand where you are coming from when you say “The funny thing is, you people display your hatred of us every day then wonder why we support your enemies.” I hear you!

The formulae for determining the party you support = The one you hate less in a particular ‘day and age’?

Let me be the first to accept, Muslims the world over have a lot a lot a lot of introspection to do – there is absolutely no denying that Fact!

But my only question to you is, in all seriousness, living in a society that places a great deal of emphasis on exploring and addressing the root-cause as opposed to mere surface treatment of the symptoms, case-in-point
1) A student pumps bullets through fellow students -> We don’t hear reasons such as “He must be the son of Satan”, More like -> “Are violent video games that glorify violence to blame?”
2) When a Veteran jumps off a bridge -> there is an effort to understand the reasons-behind, PTSD etc. rather than out rightly unequivocally dismissing him as a Sissy
3) Childhood obesity -> we don’t hear “He must be born with the stomach of an elephant”. We do see a dialogue on the merits and demerits of marketing unhealthy food products to children
4) And the list goes on and on....

CONTD

SPQR,
On your quotes so far:
• Historic events and their interpretations do have a certain level of subjectivity. But your quotes far exceed all the sensible boundaries, therefore they cannot be trusted;
• But more importantly, your quotes on Quran (30 July 9:02 AM and 31 July 7:07 AM) was wrong and you admitted that only after repeated questions left you with no other choice.
This establishes you as an extremely untrustworthy source of information.

On your why there are no “Anti-Hams authors operating in Hamas controlled area”,
Why should be there one? - Palestinians are the oppressed. What should they say to Hamas? - don’t resist the brutes?

On your it is not “your Israel”. One would understand that:
1. It is not easy today to admit that you are one of the brutes – see the WORLD PRESS; and
2. Changing identity makes you look like an impartial person – a big ask in your case.
But your 100% agreement with 100% of the official Israeli position and 100% of same tactics of spreading misinformation on the faith and culture of the brutalised (to justify the brutalities, as we have seen in history on Atlantic slave trade, Holocaust and Apartheid in our detailed exchange) have exposed you.

Even with the distraction you tried with your question, you have still not answered as to why Gideon Levy and a host of other people of conscience in Israel, US and Europe say what they are saying today about your Israel to the rest of the world.

And the WORLD PRESS! You don’t dare visit it. But you should, can help you to step out of your fantasy.

Do it or not, the Natural Justice, just as real as Physical Laws – a resounding message of human history - is CLOSING IN ON YOUR FOLKS. This is the message the world-conscience today is conveying through the WORLD PRESS to the rabid fringe of the SPQRs. And that is why you fear an impartial third-party arbitration.

I see Hamas can't even tell the time. They fired 2 Rocket 2 hours before the cease fire ended. Proving that they don't want peace.

McAdam: "out of base matters" as opposed to "what they know" I guess it a translation quandary. One could say, "out of nothing, or little" or "how intelligent they could be." Many words in English mean the same or similar. Get yourself a Thesaurus & have a look through that. I may help you to understand English much better. I can see that English is not your first language & the nuances of English do create havoc at times to new people.

Now, time to have a look at Muslims on uTube & what they have to say. & do.

Hadi & McAdam, I believe you wanted this

Quotes from the Koran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kkDUlpWliQ

Muslims killing other Muslims. enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGrZ3GJkK9Q

An Islamic flag will fly over Australia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAPmJexGvIc

Islam to take over Europe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZgTk9zlSlY

CONTD

Given
1) that the brutal occupation of Palestine would not be possible even for a day without the ‘altruistic’ complete and total military support West provides to Israel
2) Israel’s illegal occupation and atrocities would not be possible without the complete diplomatic cover offered by the West
3) the ceaseless occupations of Muslim countries in the ME considered a threat by Israel under the pretext of ‘freedom and democracy’ by regular or irregular forces (ISIS, ISIL, the lot!)

There may be less loony explanations for this, “hatred”, as you put it, Muslims feel towards the West? It may have nothing to do with religion but everything to do with Politics?

Q: Can we at least entertain the thought (leave it as ‘work-in-progress’, no need to reach a resolution yet) that its not religion but real life geo-political issues behind this?

We can turn it into a chicken and an egg discussion as to what is an action and what is a reaction BUT I will just take YOUR statement, still yours, and JUST reverse the order
“The funny thing is, you people support ‘our enemies’ (read the illegal and brutal occupiers) and then wonder why we display hatred of you”
Are you willing to entertain the thought that the order of events you have set in your head may not be correct? Did the hatred come first or the brutal occupation and its support by the West? I am not saying if we reverse the order it absolves Muslims of all wrongs and places the entire blame in the West’s corner but are we willing to at least look for more plausible reasons?

“Give a man a reputation and he lives up to it!”, the constant vilification of Muslims day in and out in the media and in ‘everything mainstream’ really – do you also have a responsibility in meeting halfway by shedding some of your preconceived notions and biases?
I am guilty of harboring preconceived notions, biases which I MUST strive to see beyond and I hope my ‘fellow 4wd enthusiast’,you would at least entertain the thought?

Dear Jayb' you wrote:-

"McAdam: "out of base matters" as opposed to "what they know" I guess it a translation quandary............I may help you to understand English much better. "

Please do, please help me.
If it is translation quandary, then there must exist at least one copy of Quran, that carries your version of "translation". Please show me; I bet you can not, as there is none. You don't know that Quran is a book which is incorruptible.

Now dear Jayb, in the span of four days you had three different stands on this issue, you can not deny, as your posts are recorded on this thread; first you said the "base matters" version was correct, then you said, it was not you but some one else who did that and now again you take it upon yourself to help me understand that "base matters" version indeed is correct.

Does it occur to you dear Jayb why do you have to change your positions so frequently? Because you do not care if they are based on truth. Please see the truth. Please see the truth and embrace it; there would be no hatred, no remorse.

Now please get back to me only if you can produce the copy of Quran with your version of translation. Without that your statements would be of no value to me and I'll ignore them.

Best regards

NC,

OK. Let’s look in detail at your claims:
You say: << your quotes on Quran … was wrong >>
My quote (SINGULAR) was absolutely spot-on! The source was mistaken but the content was exact. And when I saw that the *source cited* was wrong I corrected it. You and McAdam acted like a couple of shonky lawyers defending a guilty client by trying to get him off on a technicality.

And then you tried a fudge: <<Hadith, a collection of verbal accounts… it is known to be a human effort that can’t be flawless.>> and when I challenged you with << Hadiths form a very important foundation to Islamic thinking & practice . Surely you are not going to try and sell me on otherwise!>>...what did you do?

YOU SIDE-STEPPED -- without the slightest acknowledgement!
________

Now to those some of those historic events. Your claim is worth quoting in full because it is such and excellent piece of waffle:
<<Historic events and their interpretations do have a certain level of subjectivity. But your quotes far exceed all the sensible boundaries, therefore they cannot be trusted>> Wow!

So here's the first: referring to the early 20th century you said << you search in Muslim history of a thousand years you will find the former to be greater than the latter by orders of magnitude>> When I pointed to the holocausts the Muslims invaders imposed on Hindus’ or the multiple holocausts the Muslim Turks or the holocausts imposed by the Islamic slavers...what did you do?

YOU SIDESTEPPED --no retraction--no apology
________

Instead you bought up the “diversions” like this: of the <<t nothing in human history compares with the Atlanta (sic) slave trade (1441-1840) in volume, exploitation and brutality>> And when it was pointed out to you that the largest, most long lasting and most brutal slave trade was the Ottoman/ Arab history ...what did you do?

YOU SIDESTEPPED --no retraction --no apology.

Nc (continued)

Now we have this in your latest post: When asked as to why there were no high profile figures criticizing or deconstructing Islam or Hamas in Hamas controlled territory you responded:

<<Why should be there one? - Palestinians are the oppressed. What should they say to Hamas? - don’t resist the brutes?>>

So you NC and your bully boys have judged that there is nothing to be said! Good of you to decide on everyone elses behalf.eh!

I am reminded of those “protesters” who raged through the heart our cities with placards like “Behead who insult the prophet!” because they didn’t like the film “Innocence of Muslims” And didn't want anyone else to see it. (and some of the apologists out there tried to tell us it was only a handful of extremists --NC doesn't consider himself an extremist, he even availed of the best Western education in a California university!)

And still you, NC, you are trying to tell us that your motive is human rights!

AND STILL, NOT A WORD FROM ANY OF TEAM ISLAMS CHEER SQUAD ABOUT ISIS!

Jayb,

Forget about arguing quote meanings with McAdam. There is a very good old adage: know the tree by the fruit it bears.

What do these countries have in common --apart from having Islam as the dominant religion?

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2014/05/PF_14.05.28_blasphemy-apostasy_apostasy640px.png

They have strict national laws again apostasy

Found it. Page 21, post 4. LEGO's Post.
My appologies LEGO, Hadi keeps saying it was my post.
Here is some Koran and Sura's for you.

Koran 70:39
We have created the unbelievers out of base matters.

Koran 98:1-8
The unbelievers among the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.

9:123: “O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the pious.”

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Sura (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

Posted by LEGO, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 6:52:24 PM

Margin notes are put there by Learned Mullars as a way to better understand the true meaning of the passage. You thought you'd get away with this. Didn't you Hadi?

Surahs.

70.38. Does every man of them long to enter the Garden of Bliss?

70.39. By no means! For We have created them out of the (Margin note. "base matter") they know!

70.40. Now I do call to witness the Lord of all points in the East and the West that We can certainly--

70.41. Substitute for them better (Margin note. "men") than they; and We are not to be defeated (Margin note. "in Our Plan").
Cont...

Here's an interesting comment on credibility

This is Hamas' version:

" 'Hamas' declares the death of the former name of the spokesman Ayman Taha in Israeli shelling AUG 7, 2014
Gaza / Mustafa Haboush / Alonadol announced that the Islamic Resistance Movement 'Hamas' in the death of the former name of the spokesman Ayman Taha, of wounds sustained a few days ago, a result of Israeli shelling targeted an apartment which was located where the city of Gaza"
http://www.raialyoum.com/?p=133214

ANOTHER NOBLE MARTYR?

But this is what really happened as told by Alquds.com (another Palestian source BASED OUT OF JERUSALEM rather than GAZA --which is why it is able to challenge the official Hamas line)

"RAMALLAH special Jerusalemdot com confirmed private sources, it was the execution of the former leader of Hamas, Ayman Taha, 3 days ago, where his body now resides in the compound of Shifa Hospital.

The sources said, that Taha was executed by several bullets in the head and chest, where his body was dumped in the yard of "healing" and stayed for an hour without approaching one of them, before the return of other gunmen and pulled without knowing why.

Hamas has banned the publication of the news of the arrival of the corpse on Tuesday, but allowed that day after the body was re-Taha for 'healing' at three in the afternoon.

Months before the oldest Hamas security on the arrest of the former leader, 'Taha' and detained an unknown location, where he was under investigation.

Ayman Taha, accused of having ties with Arab intelligence services, as well as for the establishment of investment projects of its own under the name of the movement Hmas. and exploited position in addition to financial embezzlement led to inflated his wealth without justification.

Hamas accuses him and also to hold contacts with Palestinian figures on the runner with great movement."

http://www.alquds.com/news/article/view/id/518166

NO. ANOTHER VICTIM OF A HAMAS DEATH SQUAD!

Google will translate it to English if it pops-up in Arabic

...Cont
It helps to have the full text to understand the context. doesn't it.

Al Bayyinah (Margin note. "The Clear Evidence")

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

1. Those who reject (Margin note. "Truth"), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (Margin Note. "from their ways") until there should come to them Clear Evidence--

2. An messenger from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy:

3. Wherein are laws (Margin Note. "or decrees") right and straight.

4. Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence.

5. And they have been commanded no more than this: to worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being True (Margin note. "in faith"); to establish regular Prayer; and to practice regular Charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.

6. Those who reject (Margin note. "Truth"), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-fire, to dwell therein ( Margin note. "for aye"). They are the worst of creatures.

7. Those who have faith and do righteous deeds--they are the best of creatures.

8. Their reward is with Allah: Gardens of Eternity, Beneath which rivers flow; They will dwell therein for ever; Allah well pleased with them, and they with Him: all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.
Cont...

SPQR,
My next post addresses the issues you have (only) repeated in your post of the 8th.

It is quite clear to me, as it should be to the other readers, that your posts are driven by two objectives:

Objective I: Red Herring: Deflect attention from the main issue;

Objective II: Misquote Quran and the Muslim history to prove Muslims and by extension Palestinian to be so horrible that they deserve all brutalities unleashed upon them by your Israel. Same argument that the supporters of slave trade, holocaust and apartheid adopted for the justification of the attrocities.

Both of your objectives target modern day persons busy with their daily lives with little or no time to re-search fact.
Knowing that faith is a highly private affair, a mud-slinging on any faith deserves a little investigation before any attention is paid to it. About Quran, in this regard, I suggest, please look up the translations of two westerners readily available these days:

1. An ex Jew – Leopold Weis of Poland (also known as Muhammad Asad);
2. Marmaduke Willaim Pickthall (also known as Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall) – of London England. A highly esteemed author by D. H. Lawrence, HG Wells and EM Foster etc.

And for a general introduction of Islam, Timothy John Winter– Cambridge UK (now known as Abdal Hakeem Murad) widely available on Utube.

Like I said before,
On ground realities: SPQR, you have still not answered as to why Gideon Levy and a host of other people of conscience in Israel, US and Europe say what they are saying today about your Israel to the rest of the world.

And the WORLD PRESS! You don’t dare visit it. But you should, can help you to step out of your fantasy world.

Continued ….

SPQR
Continued ….

Now your usual red herring designed to meet your Objectives I &II (preceding part of this post).

1. You quoted a verse from Quran (30 July 9:02 AM) which is not in Quran. This is your first post on the article (your commitment to Objective II). You are questioned and you quote its location in Quran in your words “along with a lot worse.” (31 July 7:07 am). You deliberately LIED FOR THE 2ND TIME. Your Objective II established. And now your associate, pursuing Objective II, insists on a translation which is not anywhere in Quran.

2. Yes, Hadith is a collection of verbal accounts (collected about 150 year after the death of Prophet (PBH) and yes it is a human effort whereas Quran (in my faith) is the Word of God. Anything more from you on the subject of Hadith will be ignored as Red Herring.

3. On human deaths at the hands of Muslims (Your Objective II): count them (from reliable historic references - no hate-site stuff), add them up and compare with deaths in European wars that I pointed out for instance, you will see my point. Like I said before, Human history is bloody and you cannot blame it all on Muslims – How many times you want me to say this?

4. Yes, nothing compares with the Atlantic slave trade in volume and brutality in the history of mankind. The accounts are in front to you as an open book - with all western sources. You refuse to read reliable history books, blame yourself not me.

5. ISIS: I don’t condone brutal capture of state authority. Theories abound, but I do not know who these guys really are. If it was in my power, I would bring this crowd before law and try them for crimes against humanity. However, their crimes, can no way be seen as the crimes of Palestinians - justifying the Israeli brutalities you so passionately support. Anything more from you on the issue will be ignored as Red Herring.

Jayb, here's one for you, "The most outrageous use of Jewish children, however, would be illustrated when the Israeli army invited them to write messages of hate on the missiles about to be launched against Lebanese children during Israel's July 2006 invasion of Lebanon"

...Cont
It helps to have the full text to understand the context. doesn't it.

Al Bayyinah (Margin note. "The Clear Evidence")

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

1. Those who reject (Margin note. "Truth"), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (Margin Note. "from their ways") until there should come to them Clear Evidence--

2. An messenger from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy:

3. Wherein are laws (Margin Note. "or decrees") right and straight.

4. Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence.

5. And they have been commanded no more than this: to worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being True (Margin note. "in faith"); to establish regular Prayer; and to practice regular Charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.

6. Those who reject (Margin note. "Truth"), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-fire, to dwell therein ( Margin note. "for aye"). They are the worst of creatures.

7. Those who have faith and do righteous deeds--they are the best of creatures.

8. Their reward is with Allah: Gardens of Eternity, Beneath which rivers flow; They will dwell therein for ever; Allah well pleased with them, and they with Him: all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.
...Cont

markjohnconley:

Yes bad,I agree, but they don't teach kids in school to hate & have pantomimes about killing Palestinian or Lebanon kids do they. As happens in Palestinian schools.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etDb5tXPawc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT6iKFQDEP4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bra53uzgPDk

NC,

Despite all you worldly-wise pretensions, you are very much a man of the medieval past.You are easily impressed by things that we in a liberal democracy see as ordinary and every day

You name drop << Leopold Weis an ex Jew>> and <<Willaim Pickthal>> et la and enthuse that this proves your religion is superior. *Lookie, lookie these people converted Islam* (for full effect, say in the voice of Eccles from The Goons http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tjHlFPTwVk)

There are likely an equal number of eminents who have left Islam --and there would undoubtedly be many more if they were free to choose-REPEAT: IF THEY WERE FREE TO CHOOSE!

We hear stories of conversion from one creed to another EVERYDAY it isn’t unusual it is ORDINARY. Yahweh Witnesses knocking on your door or Scientologists accosting you in the street will tell you similar EVERYDAY of the week (leastways in most Western domains were proselyting is permitted! )

If you really have faith your creed is superior
i) Remove the apostate laws (currently in almost all majority Islamic countries)
ii) Stop brainwashing you kids in Madrasahs and the like
iii) Stop intimidation of artists (ala Rushdie, Theo" van Gogh , Danish cartoons...
iv) Stop favouring Muslims over non-Muslims in Islamic domains
v) Come clean on your bloody history (so people like you get and proper grounding!)

And let Islam stand or fall on its own merits

Your condemnation of ISIS rings hollow since you seem to share most of their values and aspirations!

NC (continued)

<< nothing compares with the Atlantic slave trade in volume and brutality in the history of mankind. The accounts are in front to you as an open book >>
Of course you can read a thousand books about the Atlantic slave trade any day of the week. And if you attend any western uni that is all you’re ever likely to hear discussed. And if you look at the United Nations conference of slavery, again it will be all about the Atlantic slave trade. But that says more about Left-wing politics/influence than the reality.

I seriously doubt it will have a slightest effect on you . You have already shown a tendency to write off anything that doesn’t fit into your fairytale fantasy of Islam as “hateful stuff”” –but for what it’s worth:

-- “Historians estimate that between 650 and 1900, 10 to 18 million people were enslaved by Arab slave trade”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_tradeers

And then there's the Muslim Ottomans:

--“As late as 1908, female slaves were still sold in the Ottoman Empire.”
--“In Constantinople (present-day Istanbul), the administrative and political center of the Empire, about a fifth of the population consisted of slaves in 1609”
--“In the dev&#351;irme, which connotes "blood tax" or "child collection", young Christian boys from the Balkans and Anatolia were taken from their homes and families, converted to Islam”
--“Hundreds of thousands of Europeans were captured by Barbary pirates and sold as slaves in North Africa and the Ottoman Empire between the 16th and 19th”
--“The concubines of the Ottoman Sultan consisted chiefly of purchased slaves. The Sultan's concubines were generally of Christian origin.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

And then there’s the present day:
[MALI]
“Under the Islamists, blacks were exploited even more by the pink-skinned people,” said Roukiatou Cisse, a social worker with Temedt, a human rights group, referring to the Tuaregs and Arab Moors. “They told them, ‘We are with the Islamists. We are in power. We are the masters and you are our slaves. We will do what we want.’&#8201;”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/timbuktus-slaves-liberated-as-islamists-flee/2013/05/31/ea4d3e1a-c142-11e2-9aa6-fc21ae807a8a_story.html

...cont.

8.12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (Margin note. "with the message"): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
9.123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you; and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

4.95. Not equal are those believers who sit (Margin note. "at home") and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home): unto all Margin note. "(in faith") hath Allah promised good: but those who strive and fight hath He distinguished above those who sit (Margin note. "at home") by a special reward.

I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine:

1. When was it founded and by whom?
2. What were its borders?
3. What was its capital?
4. What were its major cities?
5. What constituted the basis of its economy?
6. What was its form of government?
7. Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?
8. Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
9. What was the language of the country of Palestine?
10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?
11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese Yuan on that date.
12. And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?
13. name the country where Islam has brought liberty, individual freedom and lasting peace?

Dot point answers 1-13 please.

Hi SPQR, great posts, but you missed a few things about the incompatibility of western civilisation and Islam

The Muslim concept that state and religion are inseparable, is incompatible.

The concept that husbands have a right to beat their wives, is incompatible.

The concept that Ecclesiastical law is pre eminent over secular law, is incompatible.

The concept that females are minors, and subject to guardian male control, unable to even leave the house, or enter into any contract, is incompatible to contemporary western concepts of female equality.

The concept that apostates and blasphemers should be murdered, is incompatible to western liberal thought.

The concept that women should have no say in whom they marry, and that a marriage can occur not requiring the consent of the woman, is incompatible to western ideals

The concept that homosexuality should be a capitol offence, is incompatible with western concepts of tolerance towards homosexuals.

The concept that allegations of rape must be validated by four male witnesses of Islamic faith is incompatible with western evidentiary jurisprudence.

The Muslim concept that a raped woman should be punished, is incompatible to western ideas.

The Muslim concept a man may marry outside of his faith, but that a woman may not, is incompatible to western values.

The Muslim concept that alcohol consumption should be proscribed, is incompatible with western traditions.

The concept that a man may divorce a woman, simply by reciting 'I divorce thee", three times, but does not give equivalence to women, is incompatible to western concepts of divorce.

The Muslim concept that males are filled with "uncontrollable lusts" and that women, by their behaviour and dress are responsible for keeping these lusts contained, and blamed for it if it occurs, is incompatible with western the concept that men are responsible for controlling their own sex drive.

The contemporary Muslim concept of marrying first cousins to keep property in the family, is incompatible to sensible genetic hygiene as practiced in the west.

The concept that it is right and valid for a religion to spread by military force, is incompatible to contemporary western thought.

Where is this debate drifting to?
Some are saying that Islam is incompatible with present times, some are fabricating Quran and then citing numerous paras from Quran to mask their fraud and some are saying outright that Muslims in general and Palestinians in particular are subhuman and therefore are a fair game.

Remember, what this forum set out to discuss? The atrocities unleashed in Gaza and the support of the brutal siege and holocaust of Palestinians with the cheers of the spectators of a Roman Colosseum as grass cutting? Yes that is the topic.

This argument that Muslims are ignorant, with inferior IQ and backwardness and therefore deserve to be exterminated is the same as practiced by some animals who cannibalize their fallen fellow animals; wolves do it snakes and some other animals do it.Nazis did it with Jews. Do we wish to see the humanity stoop to that level or rise to the level achieved by some other animals already, where the weak and sick are taken care of by others.
And this point of such and such being week or backward needs a look back; all have been through those phases; just a little sole searching is needed here.

Please stick to the topic and accept that Palestinians are fellow humans and need to be treated as equals. Or reject this notion and we can agree to disagree.
No diversions, no beating about the bush please.

SPQR,

Your repetition of misinformation establishes your objectives I have already discovered and stated, namely:

Objective I: Red Herring: Deflect attention from the main issue;

Objective II: Misquote Quran and the Muslim history to prove Muslims and by extension Palestinian to be so horrible that they deserve all brutalities unleashed upon them by your Israel. Your reasoning is same as the argument that the supporters of slave trade, holocaust and apartheid adopted for the justification of the atrocities.

On your Objective II, keeping in mind your attempts, my suggestion to the impartial readers would be to start with “Islam: A Short History “, by a British (non-Muslim) author- the present day authority on religious history – Karen Armstrong:

1. “Karen Armstrong’s short history offers a vital corrective to” the narrow view. ….”it demonstrates that the world’s fastest growing faith is much richer and more complex phenomenon than its modern fundamentalist strain might suggest” – text on the flap

2. Examining Islamic history from secular perspective, she makes many interesting observations that cannot be fully covered here. Will quote only 2 here for starters:

a. “The Quran gave women rights of inheritance and divorce centuries before Western women were accorded such status”, page 16;
b. On community built on practical compassion and fair distribution of wealth – “This was more important than any doctrinal teaching about God” – page 6.

In short, her books:

• Muhammad – A biography of Prophet;
• Islam – A Short History;
• A History of God – A 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam; and
• The Battle for God – Fundamentalism in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Provide a secular and comprehensive view of religion and its history including Islam.

A non-Muslim who has read any of the above books can see the malice and misinformation that SPQRs keep injecting in their posts.

Continued …..

SPQR, Continued ….

The dialogue at your end has turned into a monologue. You don’t answer my questions and keep repeating stuff from Google-searched hate-sites. Remember, the internet is full of material exact opposite of that you quote. The present day reader is fully aware of such material, so I see no point in repeating what you are doing.

On my unanswered questions (that I have asked you so many times) I must remind you that the following are still unanswered.

1. You have still not answered as to why Gideon Levy and a host of other people of conscience in Israel, US and Europe say what they are saying today about your Israel to the rest of the world;

2. Why your posts completely ignore the world press? Quote the world press instead of Google-searched hate sites filled with misinformation. People are interested in credible information.

An now I must add the third question:

3. Have you ever asked yourself as to why the entire planet dislikes your Israel and disapproves of its actions?

TO WHOM MAY CONCERN
<<Some are saying that Islam is incompatible with present times>>
If a creed needs apostate laws (ala trade protection barriers) to protect itself it can hardly be said to be up with the times.

<<some are saying outright that Muslims in general and Palestinians in particular are subhuman and therefore are a fair game>>
REALLY ! where did you read that <<saying >> on this thread?

<<Remember, what this forum set out to discuss? The atrocities unleashed in Gaza…>>
No. You must be thinking about one of those Hamas <<forums>>.
This thread –on this forum --was started by one Junaid Cheema to promote his one-eyed view of the current conflict—whether what is happening represents “[A]trocities unleashed in Gaza and the support of the brutal siege and holocaust of Palestinians with the cheers of the spectators of a Roman Colosseum as grass cutting?” is debatable.


<< This argument that Muslims…deserve to be exterminated is the same as practiced by some animals >>
REALLY ! where did you read that <<argument>> on this thread?

<<And this point of such and such being week or backward needs a look back; all have been through those phases; just a little sole searching is needed here.>>
OK you have a look at your <<sole>> .

<<Please stick to the topic and accept that Palestinians are fellow humans and need to be treated as equals. Or reject this notion and we can agree to disagree.>>

The first issue to be addressed is whether the sources team Islam rely on can be relied on :
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16545#290033
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16545#289437

The insistence on Islam being incompatible with modern times will result in comparative study of religions. I will not criticize Torah as it is part my belief that it is God's word revealed to His messenger Moses and I will not criticize Bible for it is part of my belief that it is God's word revealed to His messenger Jesus. But, by application of same standards, it would be absolutely clear that both Torah and Bible preach more violence and are relatively much less compatible with modern times. ( literature of credible non Muslims sources available) If it is not Islam, what religion it is that is compatible with present times? I would have asked if that was the topic.

I would rather stick to the topic and say that I get the impression that the other side confirms Junaid's observation, that it indeed is the case as he has described. However they appear to be to parrying the direct confession and introduce diversions. If this is not the case, they should say so clearly and directly and that is the end of discussion.
Best regards

NC: This argument that Muslims are ignorant, with inferior IQ and backwardness and therefore deserve to be exterminated is the same as practiced by some animals who cannibalize their fallen fellow animals;

I would hope for the same sentiments to be returned by Muslims towards unbelievers but as we have seen by the Surah's that have posted, Muslim are forbidden to do that. I'd like to remind you that, I, personally was told by an Imam that because I wasn't a Muslim, I was an animal & could be killed, no problem. Although he was referring to a group of Orang Asli at the time.

So, Mc Adam what have you to say about "Margin notes" placed there by Learned Mullahs? Caught out? I think so.

The little Quiz about the origins of Palestine as a country. Don't want to answer that? Why not?

I do have a very old Koran somewhere. It was given to be in Malaysia in 67/69 by my Amah. Her Imam said it was a very good translation. It has the Arabic to English then heaps of margin notes & who made them & when. But Dammed if I can put my hand on it.

I have a KJB, a Catholic Bible, a Torah (with margin notes as well), a Morman Bible, a Buddhist "Eight Fold Path." & a Bhagaved Gita. The funny thing they all preach the same thing in their own way. The Koran is the only one that emphatically insists on killing unbelievers.

NC: . “Karen Armstrong’s short history offers a vital corrective to” the narrow view, etc.

She & Gideon Levy and a host of other people are entitled to their view, even if it's wrong. I can't force them to be right. I'm not going to execute them for their view. This isn't an Islamic State.

NC: Google-searched hate-sites.

The UTube links I send you are of Islamic Mullahs, Islamic Leaders & highly thought of Islamic Spokespeople. Your people, not hate filled unbelievers. They are only videos showing what THEY are saying & doing. Don't you like the Truth.

NC: by application of same standards, it would be absolutely clear that both Torah and Bible preach more violence and are relatively much less compatible with modern times.

I can't speak for the Torah but I'd like you to quote me equivalent passages in the Christian Bible for these two in the Koran.

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Telling people to kill unbelievers.

Sura (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (Margin note. "at home") and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (Margin note. "at home"). Unto all (Margin note . "Faith") Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (Margin note. "at home") by a special reward."

Telling people that Allah will reward them well for killing unbelievers.

Also I have a problem with "Angels & Gins, yes I know they are in the Unbelievers Books to. But the problem is that there are no such things. Lies.

Now as regards the American & British slave trade. Who did they buy the their slaves off. Oh my God! It was Arab (Muslim) Slave Traders. Well I'll be!

To McAdam.

At no time has anybody on OLO ever claimed that Palestinians are subhuman.

I am defending the right of the Israelis to self defence from a Nazi religion that is obsessed with their extermination. In WW2 the allies did much the same thing to the Germans, as the Israelis are now doing to the Muslims. We deliberately targeted German civilians in order to destroy Germany's war machine, and we deliberately killed their women and children by the hundreds of thousands. We did it because they were the ones who began the war bombing civilian areas themselves, and committing atrocities like machine gunning refugee columns as an instrument of tactical military policy.

The Allies did not like dropping 4 megatons of high explosive on German civilians, but we were faced with an implacable and genocidal enemy bent on our self destruction. And just like the Israelis, we were playing for keeps. Supporting the Muslims is exactly like supporting the German Nazis. For the Palestinians to complain about the Israelis shooting back at them is like the Nazis complaining about the RAF bombing them, or the Khmer Rouge complaining about genocide. But I will say one thing for the Nazis, they did not deliberately put military equipment in schools, hospitals and churches and then invite the Allies to bomb them.

The Muslims wish to exterminate Israel and that is the issue. Everybody has the right to self defence and until HAMAS, the PLO, the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran, Al Qaida and ISIS agree with Israel's right to exist, then whatever the Israelis do to protect themselves is fair and reasonable. If the "Palestinians" want the bombardment to stop, then stop provoking Israel and stop shooting rockets over the border. It is as simple as that. For HAMAS to claim in knew nothing about the kidnapping, or the tunnels, or the rockets, rings as hollow as Adolph Hitler claiming that he knew nothing about what the Luftwaffe did.

Dear LEGO, you wrote "whatever the Israelis do to protect themselves is fair and reasonable."
I see your point which must be appearing very convincing to you.
The point is that no one can be party and the judge at the same time; basic civilized law...basic. Israel takes the position of both at the same time.
On the other hand UN High Commissioner for Human Rights accuses Israel of committing war crimes and The Amnesty International resolves to investigate it and Israel opposes this resolution with none other than one country siding with Israel. It is Israeli defiance of the rest of the world and insistence of dictating the world that impedes peaceful resolution and civilized behavior dear LEGO. Will Israel accept the findings of Amnesty International's enquiry?
If one side is allowed to commit a crime and require every one else to accept its version only, then such ironies occur that the side which markets "Bomb Gaza" video games for their children (please google it) blames the other side, in the same breath of teaching violence to their children.

Let me take this opportunity dear LEGO to remind you that I have not heard any remorse from you for trying to fabricate Quran. You have neither provided proof of you false claim that "base matters" version is indeed from Quran, nor you have posted an apology. Basic civilized behavior demands one or the other.
Best regards

Dear Jayb, you wrote "So, Mc Adam what have you to say about "Margin notes" placed there by Learned Mullahs? Caught out? I think so"

Margin notes dear Jayb are interpretations or explanations of the translator. They reflect translator's level and may or may not be in accordance with the text. Theoretically speaking, you could be a translator and write a margin note; how much credibility should that be given?

You had earlier written:-
"out of base matters" as opposed to "what they know" I guess it a translation quandary............I may help you to understand English much better. "

Now your position is that you are better qualified to help me understand Quran, as Quran is what is under discussion, because you claim to have superior knowledge of English language. Understanding Quran better on the strength of knowledge of English language? Quran which is in Arabic. Do you see the fallacy of your assertion?
The kind of discussion you are trying to initiate takes place when quakes claim to be experts.

I had pleaded with you that result oriented and meaningful discussion presupposes exchange of truth. How do you discuss when you are not sure what you are getting is truth? Therefore, I had submitted that "please get back to me only if you can produce the copy of Quran with your version of translation. Without that your statements would be of no value to me and I'll ignore them"

Best regards

To McAdam.

As soon as you say "Human Rights" you have lost me. "Human Rights" was a concept dreamed up by US slave owners which has morphed to become a wish list for socialist tyranny. Despite freedom of speech being considered a fundamental human right, the entire, publically funded human rights quango in Australia was missing in action over 18C and the Bolt affair. The only time the left or Islam cares about human rights is when they can get some mileage out of it. Since when has Islam ever given a damn about human rights? Your pathetic claim is like a professional car thief who gets outraged and runs to the police when somebody steals his car.

The UN Human Rights Organisation has included such members as Cuba and Ghaddafi's Libya. These people are not going to preach human rights to me.

I find it funny that many Euros think like you do and they are the ones having these "crimes against humanity" show trials. But unless the Euros start thinking straight, in 50 years time they will be in exactly the same position as the Israelis are now, with Muslim "intifadas" of their own. The portents are already clear with the occasional riots, car burnings and Muslim patrols in London enforcing Sharia Law. The Euros are going to wonder how stupid they could have been to condemn the Israelis for doing what they will need to do, to survive in a society in which they have foolishly imported people bent on their social annihilation.

And I have not tried to fabricate the Koran at all. I quoted from internet sites which point out how Islam is fundamentally dangerous. I did not even bother to refute your "explanations" by Muslim scholars of the five clearly dangerous quotes, because the "explanations" were clearly spin, and bad spin at that.

NC,

<<Red Herring[s] >>
No. It was you who introduced the “diversions” . And then when they get shot down you whine about it.

<< [Quotes unsavoury aspects of Islamic history] and by extension Palestinian to be so horrible that they deserve …>>
Again. It was you who first made reference to Islamic history. And, I made no reference to the Palestinians deserving anything (good or bad). But now that you brought it up there is one extension to make. Our little discussion has well illustrated just how narrowly one-eyed and dishonest you and Hadi and McAdam (the spokespersons for the Palestinians) are. And has thrown into doubt any testimony you make.

And cherry picking an odd (in every meaning of the word) source that gives you a good review may work at the local madrasah but it won’t work here.

AND THIS IS PARTICULARLY TELLING:
<<[You] keep repeating stuff from Google-searched hate-sites. >>
So Wikipedia is a hate site?
Wikipedia if anything is left of centre and more favourable to your side. Comments like yours above clearly illustrates your locked mind.As I predicted you simply will not take on board anything that present an unsavoury side of Islam!

The significance of most things seems to pass at 30,000 feet about your head --see your little questions/points below:
1) [ Levy’s assessment]
It is not at all significant that Levy should make an anti-Israeli assessment.There are thousands of such statements in most liberal democracies every day.What is significant is that:
a) You cannot find parallel anti-Hamas sentiments openly expressed in Hamas territory.
b) If a similar statement had been aired in Oz about Muslims or Palestinians or Arabs your fellow cheerleaders would be squawking “Islamophobia” or “racism”.

NC: by application of same standards, it would be absolutely clear that both Torah and Bible preach more violence and are relatively much less compatible with modern times.

I can't speak for the Torah but I'd like you to quote me equivalent passages in the Christian Bible for these two in the Koran.

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike
off every fingertip of them"
Telling people to kill unbelievers.

Sura (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (Margin note. "at home") and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (Margin note. "at home"). Unto all (Margin note . "Faith") Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (Margin note. "at home") by a special reward."

Telling people that Allah will reward them well for killing unbelievers.

Now as regards the American & British slave trade. Who did they buy the their slaves off? Oh my God! It was Arab (Muslim) Slave Traders. Well I'll be!

McAdam, "Margin notes" were put in by "Learned Mullahs," complete with who & the date, not translators. You knew that.

Answer the 13 questions, McAdam, NC & anyone else please.

Nc (continued)

2 <<Why your posts completely ignore the world press? Quote the world press instead of Google-searched hate sites>>
And this one is comical! You guys need to get your story straight.Junaid Cheemays at the start of this thread made the claim-- QUOTE: << "Israel has the right to defend itself!" shout the popular headlines>> translation: the press is pro-Israel.
And then we had in quick a number of posters talking about how <<brave>> Junaid was (and wanting to date him) for making an stand against the prevailing tide.And now you are squawking *look at what the press is saying* LOL You guys better get your alibi straight
3. << Have you ever asked yourself as to why the entire planet dislikes your Israel and disapproves of its actions?>>
Really! It aint true by any stretch of the imagination (even and imagination as wild as yours!) But it does provide a significant little insight into your thinking --or lack of it. If a lot of people were to dislike Israel/Israelis/Jews apparently we should take that on board as a salient lesson--- BUT if if a lot of people form an adverse opinion about Islam or Palestinians or Arabs that is "Islamophobia” or “racism “

___________________________

And on related issue/poster
1) It is highly significant that the poster who is so particular about getting citations of the Koran correct can make wild substantiated claims like this:

<<some are saying outright that Muslims in general and Palestinians in particular are subhuman and therefore are a fair game>>

<< This argument that Muslims…deserve to be exterminated is the same as practiced by some animals >>

It shows true calibre,eh!

As does this:

<< Margin notes dear Jayb are interpretations or explanations of the translator. They reflect translator's level and may or may not be in accordance with the text. Theoretically speaking, you could be a translator and write a margin note; how much credibility should that be given?>>

And then proceeds to impose his own interpretation --what a joke!

@LEGO - HA HA HA – Completely bypassed my questions you ‘dog owing, 4wd owing, white’ male who in reality is nothing but a character constructed by a Zionist troll so he can hide behind an Aussie identity and pretend to be one of us!

We have three, not two, Virulent Zionist Trolls here - So do you ‘Wolves in Kangaroo skin’ pick your own Aussie characters to blend in or are these assigned? *just curious*

The timing of your late entry into this discussion – as a back-up for these two (SPQR, Jayb) Apprentice trolls – suggests you maybe a supervisor level troll or something? Hence
Here’s some feedback,

- Based on performance, I would demote Jayb, he causes more damage to the Zionist cause by his verbose diarrhea, seriously, the repetitiveness and the lack of ingenuity in re-re-re-repeating the same pre-prepared and crammed *filth* after being brutally exposed for kindergarten level diversionary tactics. It is an INSULT to the IQ of an average Aussie (be creative please!). He gives away all your tricks by doing it in such slow motion and doing it over and over again - man its painful!, especially when he goes on his
“I was personally told by an Imam” stories <- about as credible as “My Aunt Jodie told me I am the prettiest girl in the world” *ofcourse you are Sweetheart!* *baH* LOL

The Issue is and will remain (notwithstanding any amount of diversionary tactics employed by our Virulent Zionist Trolls here)
1) Israel’s continued ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians to vacate more land and build more settlements
2) Denying the right of Palestinians to have their own State
3) Savage and merciless CHOKE-HOLD over Palestinian territories, especially the brutal blockade imposed on Gaza since they democratically elected a government which dares to raise a voice for Palestinian freedom -> “HOW DARE THEY!”

All of the above stemming from the original sin of local Palestinians being slaughtered, terrorised and forced out of their villages and towns- > upon which now stand the metropolises of the Zionist Entity, notoriously known as -> Israel.
While
1) People from all over the world being INVITED and PAID to come and SETTLE in Israel based on the RELIGION ALONE -> All Jews Welcome
2) The original inhabitants and their off springs continue living the sorry life as refugees scattered across the region and prevented to return “no one hears – no one cares”
There is only ONE PARTY in the conflict which uses RELIGION as a justification for its existence PLUS shamelessly proclaiming overall superiority over rest of the humanity -> The ever-festering bloat on the Jewish face -> the Zionist Ideology and the Zionist state of Israel.
For the other PARTY -> This has nothing to do with Religion! -> Purely a political struggle for freedom!
Keep *REGURGITATING* and *DIVERTING* and I’ll keep posting the above Truth about this conflict, ‘I play my part – you play your games – you only give yourself a Bad Name” (with due apologies to Mr John Bon Jovi :))

No amount of verbosity, verbal diarrhea and diversion can prevent the truth from getting out! -> QandA on ABC, watch, did you? :)
SAVE GAZA!
FREE PALESTINE!
Down with deceptive Zionists and the Virulent Zionist Trolls! *Wolves in Kangaroo Skin* <- Watch out!
C’mon Aussie C’mon, C’mon

Dear LEGO you wrote on 10 August that "At no time has anybody on OLO ever claimed that Palestinians are subhuman." Your friends also repeated this.

And on 5 August you wrote:-
"Everybody looks down on other groups of people. It is a cultural universal......
It is also a cultural universal that every nation at war with another usually depicts the enemy as sub human...."
(Posted by LEGO, Tuesday, 5 August 2014 5:56:56 PM)

Now dear LEGO, if you are saying that you did not mean to say what you actually said on 5 August or that you wish to retract from your previous stand and consider Palestinians as fellow human beings with rights equal to those of Jews, as indeed you should, I welcome it and it is fine with me.

And dear LEGO you wrote on 11August:- "I did not even bother to refute your "explanations" by Muslim scholars of the five clearly dangerous quotes, because the "explanations" were clearly spin, and bad spin at that."

What explanations? In one case I quoted translation only, without adding or subtracting even a coma and in the second case I answered your question; "what have you to say about "Margin notes"... I wrote what a margin note was. Do you feel it is some thing else? please quote your version with authority and let the reader decide who is putting a spin. Accusation of spin is uncalled for.

Best regard

Get a load of Hadi @ full throttle:

<<nothing but a character constructed by a Zionist troll>>
<< two, Virulent Zionist Trolls here>>
<< you ‘Wolves in Kangaroo skin’>>
<< Apprentice trolls>>
<< a supervisor level troll>>
<< and crammed *filth*>>
<< our Virulent Zionist Trolls here>>

And that was all from one post!

NOW CLOSE YOUR EYES AND IMAGINE LIVING NEXT TO A VILLAGE OF HADI'S
WHAT A WONDER MULTICULTURALLY ENRICHING EXPERIENCE THAT WOULD BE,EH!

McAdam: I answered your question; "what have you to say about "Margin notes"... I wrote what a margin note was. Do you feel it is some thing else?

For a start it wasn't LEGO. It was "JAYB" Do I feel it was something else. Of course, They are from "Learned Mullahs" NOT TRANSLATORS. You know it was "Learned Mullahs " but that doesn't suit YOUR spin.

Hadi: Down with deceptive Zionists and the Virulent Zionist Trolls! *Wolves in Kangaroo Skin* <- Watch out!
C’mon Aussie C’mon, C’mon.

Here we have a sample of blatant Racism. & don't call yourself an Aussie, you haven't a clue how to be one & you wouldn't even try to be one. Australia's culture is abhorrent & beneath a Muslim.

McAdam: consider Palestinians as fellow human beings with rights equal to those of Jews, as indeed you should, I welcome it and it is fine with me.

YOU would accept Jews as equals, BS. You know as well as i do you are forbidden to do that.

Surah 4.89
They but wish that ye should reject faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (Margin note. as they): but take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (Margin note. from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them? and (Margin note. in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.

There are a lot of even more severe passages, but that will do for now.

Answer the 13 Questions I gave you.

Oh, 14. What type of Muslims are you. Hadi, NC & McAdam. Low risk, medium risk or High risk (Fanatic/Radical).

Jayb, Your flimsy and comical attempt - to justify the Zionist entity by attempting to erase Palestine and any reference to it from history and the collective human memory – is just um *precious* but I bet my questions carry more weight :)
1. Who were the original inventors of ‘terrorism’ as we know it in the modern world? *hint*, Zio..?
2. How many Palestinians were killed or uprooted from their villages due to Zionist terrorism BEFORE the 1948 War?
3. How do you compare Nazi concept of ‘Master Race’ to the Zionist belief of ‘chosen people’ who are superior to rest of the humanity?
4. What did White South Africa have in common with Israel? (*hint* Ap..t..eid)
5. How many Palestinian villages and towns have been wiped off from the map to make way for Jewish Settlements?
6. What was the size of the Palestinian territory before the 1948 war and what is it now?
7. Which “country” in the Middle East has been created in the NAME of RELIGION? (*yet it shamelessly accuses and blames other people’s religion for the conflict?*)
8. You have to have the certain superior Zionist gene in your bloodline to automatically ‘qualify’ for citizenship of which country?
9. How much do you get paid to move to Israel if you are a Jew?
10. How much burning phosphorus is poured over you for demanding the right to return to your homeland if you are a Palestinian?
11. “the old will die and the young will forget” <- Which ‘great’ Zionist said this about how the world will just forget Palestine?
12. How many Palestinian children have been mercilessly slaughtered in the latest round of Israeli aggression?
13. Why do you have to steal Australian passports to murder Palestinians?
And the 14th one….
14. (Please this is important I asked before but you haven’t answered) How much did it cost to go through the Conscience-bypass surgery and become whatever it is you are?

SPQR,

You resorted to your main strategy of misquoting Quran in your very first post of this thread (30 July 9:02 am). Your associates joined with their strategy of fabricating translation which one does not find in Quran. This is what prompted reference to credible sources.

While it is absolutely clear that a reasoned discussion with you and your associates is impossible, I took this opportunity (and plan to continue it) to present to the interested readers some credible references to explore the facts for themselves.

On your two associates, one is addressing me in his recent posts. Please let him know that from the language he used with others and the nature of baseless material that he keeps filling his posts with, I see no point in responding to him. However, with you I will proceed as I have noted above.

On the credible references, I introduced Karen Armstrong and you bring forth, doctored stuff on Utube, material from hate-sites and Wikipedia.

I don’t regard Wikipedia as a hate-site as such. But it is not a source that can be quoted on contentious issues, let alone the research topics.

You take your references including Wikipedia against a source like Karen Armstrong to a discussion forum attended by researchers, scholars and intellectuals, I assure you that they will throw your references out window, of course, along with you.

On Karen Armstrong, her secular outlook may not be fully agreeable for many Muslims. But that is not the point. The point is that her rational approach thoroughly documented with top research (dozens of western sources) in the field totally counts out pure hate stuff that you and your associates fabricate and regurgitate

1. Who were the original inventors of ‘terrorism’ as we know it in the modern world? *hint*, Zio..?

Mohammed & his brothers. They were Camel train robbing thieves who turned their attention to Arab villages.


2. How many Palestinians were killed or uprooted from their villages due to Zionist terrorism BEFORE the 1948 War?

About 10th. of what was killed or uprooted by Islamic Terrorists after the year 630AD Christian Calender or year 0 Islamic Calender.

3. How do you compare Nazi concept of ‘Master Race’ to the Zionist belief of ‘chosen people’ who are superior to rest of the humanity?

The German Master race was Arian. The Nazi were a particually bad Political Party with some bad ideas. The Isreaeli's say they Gods Chosen People as recorded in their Torah. They don't say they are superior to the rest of Humanity.


4. What did White South Africa have in common with Israel? (*hint* Ap..t..eid)

The separation is self inflicted. No good Muslim would be seen with a Jew. The walls have gone up as protection from the terrorism from Muslims.

5. How many Palestinian villages and towns have been wiped off from the map to make way for Jewish Settlements?

Have no idea but real estate gets developed everywhere. If Muslims would behave themselves & live in Harmony with the Israeli they could share in the wealth.

6. What was the size of the Palestinian territory before the 1948 war and what is it now?

Until the British Mandation on the 25 Apr 1920 until The UN created the State of Israel on the 14 May 1948 it was approximately 31Sq. Kilometres.

7. Which “country” in the Middle East has been created in the NAME of RELIGION? (*yet it shamelessly accuses and blames other people’s religion for the conflict?*)

All of them.
cont.

NC,

<< misquoting [THE] Quran>>
You are getting your nickers in a knot over trivialities
Let McAdams show you how misquoting is done—heeeeere he goes:
<<Where is this debate drifting to? [note well he is referring to this thread]…
some are saying outright that Muslims in general and Palestinians in particular are subhuman and therefore are a fair game…
This argument that Muslims ...deserve to be exterminated…>>
You see-- that is misquoting!
PRETTY INFLAMMATORY STUFF,EH!

And McAdams is so practiced at it too: no apology –no retraction –no shame!

As for you saying : << I see no point in responding [one of your associates] yada yada yada >>
I am sure he will consider that a blessing!

And don't pussy foot around with half truths like this: <<I don’t regard Wikipedia as a hate-site as such. But it is not a source that can be quoted on contentious issues, let alone the research topics.>>
Let’s be blunt. You don’t regard ANY --repeat, ANY SITE -- that exposes the unsavoury side of Islam as credible.

<< Karen Armstrong yada yada yada …>>
Again. Let’s be blunt you cling to Karen Armstrong because she is one of the few who will give you a good rating .

You are a pretender NC –and a bad one at that.

cont.

8. You have to have the certain superior Zionist gene in your bloodline to automatically ‘qualify’ for citizenship of which country?

I have no idea.

9. How much do you get paid to move to Israel if you are a Jew?

I have no idea

10. How much burning phosphorus is poured over you for demanding the right to return to your homeland if you are a Palestinian?

I could say. Not nealy enough, but that would be nasty so I wouldn't do that. What a stupid question. Mentality 0.

11. “the old will die and the young will forget” <- Which ‘great’ Zionist said this about how the world will just forget Palestine?

I have no idea. As Palestine only existed for 28 years I suppose he's right.

12. How many Palestinian children have been mercilessly slaughtered in the latest round of Israeli aggression?

Around 400 that were held in compounds as human shields along with Hamas's Rockets & Mortars after they were warned to move.

13. Why do you have to steal Australian passports to murder Palestinians?

Because they were Terrorists & needed to be killed before they murdered innocent women & children.

14. (Please this is important I asked before but you haven’t answered) How much did it cost to go through the Conscience-bypass surgery and become whatever it is you are?

Why nothing at all. It came from conversing with the likes of Islamic nutters, such as yourself & your terrorists friends.

Gee that was an easy Quiz. Now I have obliged you, how about answering mine.

Dear LEGO, you wrote on 11 August; "And I have not tried to fabricate the Koran at all. I quoted from internet sites"

I agree that this must have been the case, but dear LEGO, this does not absolve you of the responsibility. Now it is of peddling the fabrication; apology is still in order.

We all make mistakes. It is the action after committing mistakes that distinguishes people. Some cling on to, or try to cover up and the honorable ones take responsibility and apologize.
Let us see which corse you choose.

Best regards

A correction first. My last post last line,it is course not corse, thanks.

I am being accused of misquoting. ( "Let McAdams show you how misquoting is done—heeeeere he goes; some are saying outright that Muslims in general and Palestinians in particular are subhuman and therefore are a fair game…" )


I could have erred. I do make mistakes at times, as I already have in typos. Please help me see my mistake and I am ready to accept.

I had said so, based on the following statements of LEGO;

1)"Everybody looks down on other groups of people. It is a cultural universal......

2) "It is also a cultural universal that every nation at war with another usually depicts the enemy as sub human...."

And again in his post of 3 August he wrote "How is it possible?". asks Mr Cheema, "that the Palestinians provoked Israel?""Well, I will tell you how. " And then he lists all the evils in them that make them deserving of the treatment they are getting.

And please see the hate against Islam and a Muslims noted in this thread.

And then I found, these statements in line with the subhuman and in fact inhuman treatment being meted out to Palestinians in Gaza.

If I misquoted, please tell me that you treat Palestinians as equal human beings; deserving to be treated like the Israelis themselves and there are no "Israeli roads" and "Palestinian roads", there are no separate laws for Israelis and Palestinians and there is no apartheid going on. And please tell that to Jimmy Carter too, who wrote Palestine: Peace not Apartheid.

Please tell me in words which must be in line with actions on ground and I will apologize from the whole forum for my "misquote."

I wrote what I honestly thought was the case but I hope and pray that I was wrong; please tell me that I misquoted.

Best regards

Mr Mcadam.

I demand that you apologise to me for deliberately misrepresenting my position.

I said to you, that no contributor on OLO has suggested that Palestinians are "subhuman". I said that it was a cultural universal that combatants in every war consider their enemies as subhuman, a premise you agreed with.

And I do think that the Palestinians deserve what they get, while I am sure that you think that the Israelis deserve what they get.

Thank you.

Dear LEGO, you wrote :- "I demand that you apologise to me for deliberately misrepresenting my position."

Sure, dear LEGO, I'll be glad to apologize if this really is the case, as you say.

You say; your post, that I copied for every one to see, did not imply that you had a claim to the right to degrade the Palestinians to the level of subhumans? And that, I agreed with you about considering the other side subhuman, is a news to me.

Let me understand your position clearly now; do you maintain that Palestinians are not subhumans? That they are humans with rights equal to Israelis? And you have actions on ground to substantiate that this is really what is being practiced on ground? Is this what your position is?

And the following answer by your friend, you think is really a proof that you indeed consider the Palestinians as fellow human beings and you would like done unto you what is being done to them?

(10. How much burning phosphorus is poured over you for demanding the right to return to your homeland if you are a Palestinian?

I could say. Not nealy enough, but that would be nasty so I wouldn't do that. What a stupid question. Mentality 0.)

If yes, I'll confess that I misunderstood you and shall gladly apologize .........and that would be the end of the debate, ay least, as far as I am concerned.

Best regards

McAdam: please tell me that you treat Palestinians as equal human beings; deserving to be treated like the Israelis themselves.

Of course Palestinians are Human Beings. If only Hamas would treat them as such & allow them to take refuge in places that aren't storing Hamas's weapons. Hamas didn't fire their weapons from Hospitals , Schools & Civilian neighbourhoods. That would be a good start. Israel would drop the blockade if it could be sure Hamas wouldn't import more Rockets, Mortars & small arms. It would be good if Hamas & all the other Fanatical Factions in Gaza disarmed completely. Fat chance of that ever happening.

Now, as you have used one of my answers to Questions Hadi asked. Why are you & your cohorts ignoring my Questions?

Found on Page 29. Post 5. They are not hard & I have given you some of the answers already.

“IT IS THE PSYCHOLOGY OF THE MURDERER, THE RAPIST, THE BULLY. THAT'S WHAT ISRAEL IS IN THIS SITUATION."
Alexei Sayle (of Jewish Descent)

And this is what the likes of Jayb represent and ‘wear it’ with complete self-confidence completely devoid of any self-respect – any doubts? Just go through the posts on this forum.

Jayb,
Terrorist friends? I am not acquainted with any Zionists – Jews, yes, Zionists No! Unless they happen to be closet Zionists as well – so yes your statement may be technically true.
You are definitely the highest-IQ individual I have come across -> Inhumanity-Quotient.

(the word ‘individual seems a bit rich to describe whatever it is one becomes after shedding the conscience as you have acknowledged)

The brazen impunity in your posts is typical of the ‘we can get away with anything’ Zionist mindset you represent, unfortunately for the rest of us mere mortals consequences of our actions and words is a bothersome thought always lingering in the back of our heads – you are clearly free from any such considerations as is your Israeli Defence Forces in the slaughtering of defenceless civilians, including children and then in continuation of truly Zionistic traditions -> the depiction of the victims of your insatiable lust for blood as ‘human shields’ ………………..

What the world is beginning to realize -> The proponents of ‘might is right’ philosophy only understand the language of ‘might’, don’t call it Terrorism when the illegal and brutal occupiers are paid back in the same coin, as all other avenues are deliberately closed on them.
I would certainly answer your questions – more of a comical attempt to wipe off any reference to Palestine from history – if it was genuinely an attempt to find answers, with your divert and run-to-the-next-big-lie tactics, I guess paying you back in the same coin, would be:

“Go *fetch*…………………………-> o “

Hadi & McAdam & you fellow Radicals. I assume I must be right in all my assertions as you refuse to answer any of them.

1. Do you support Hamas?
2. Do you support ISIL in Syria/Iraq?
3. Do you support an Islamic Caliphate in the Middle East?
4. Do you support the making of Australia into the Great Southern Caliphate?
5. Do you support Sharia Law to be above Australian Law?
6. Do you support anyone who wants to leave Australia to support Hamas or the ISIL be allowed to go?

I look forward to you answers.

My answers:

1. No
2. No.
3. No.
4. No.
5. Definitely, No.
6. Yes.

See. Easy.

SPQR,
No wonder you are upset at Karen Armstrong’s research which demolishes your web of fabrications you intend to weave around a faith. You bring in faith so you can demonise the victims with the misinformation which now stands exposed.

As I have been saying, the topic of our discussion is not a faith issue, it is a human issue. That is why people of conscience get attracted to it without any consideration for race or religion.

Another such person is one of the greatest living scientists of this time: STEPHEN HAWKING.

Stephen Hawking boycotted the Israeli President’s conference in Hebrew University of Jerusalem as a protest against Israeli policies towards Palestinians.

• “It is worth noting that the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, where the conference Hawking refused to attend was to be held, is built on illegally annexed Palestinian land”(The Guardian)

• Pro-Israel lobby promoted the initial false claim that he had withdrawn on health grounds.

• But “Hawking also made it clear that if he had gone he would have used the occasion to criticise Israel's policies towards the Palestinians”(The Guardian)

• Hawking's public refusal follows that of prominent singers, artists and writers, from Brian Eno to Mike Leigh, Alice Walker and Adrienne Rich, all of whom have publicly rejected invitations to perform in Israel.

• Hawking's decision has opened a floodgate with more and more scientists coming to regard ISRAEL AS A PARIAH STATE.

You may have read (from real sources) SPQR, how Apartheid supporters in South African felt about the sports boycott. It was like the end of their world as they knew it.

Something similar is happening to your Israel. The conscience is in short supply in Israel itself, therefore, the outside world (that you are so afraid of) is doing it for your Israel.

Believe it or not The WORD-CONSCIENCE IS CLOSING IN ON YOUR ISRAEL.

My next post will be about another world-renowned person of conscience.

Dear Jayb, you wrote; "Of course Palestinians are Human Beings. If only Hamas would......"

Thank you for saying that. It is a good start.

Now your version is that all that terror unleashed on Palestinians is because of Hamas wrong doings and provocations, right? If it was so, how do we account for all the killings of Palestinians prior to creation of Hamas in 1987?

If we blame Hamas for all evil, we will have to take into account, their version too. What do they say? They react to the strangulation and atrocities committed by Israel.
Now the question is who do we believe? If both sides are human and therefore equal, then both deserve to be treated equally. No one side can be given the status of being a party and the judge at the same time.

What should be the mechanism to ascertain the truth where two versions vary, which always do, other than deployment of international humanitarian observers? And lifting the siege and opening Gaza to the world. If Israel is speaking the truth, let it be transparent; let the world see for itself how right Israel is.

Best regards

McAdam: And lifting the siege and opening Gaza to the world.

& how long before Hamas would be rearmed to the hilt by Iran, the Saudi. Every Islamic Fanatic in the World would be streaming in there in days.

McAdam: how do we account for all the killings of Palestinians prior to creation of Hamas in 1987?

Have you heard of the Black Hand Gang, The Anti-Zionist movement. The Arab Higher Committee. The Palestinian Revolt 36/9, Civil War 47/8, Arab - Israeli War 487/9. All intent on removing & killing Jews in Israel.

I have a mate that was there in the 50's. He said he'd be on guard & watch Palestinians crawling one way & Israelis crawling the other way all night armed to the teeth. They were forbidden to interfere.

Dear Jayb, you wrote; "Hamas would be rearmed to the hilt by Iran, the Saudi. Every Islamic Fanatic in the World would be streaming in there in days...
Have you heard of the Black Hand Gang, The Anti-Zionist movement. The Arab Higher Committee. The Palestinian Revolt 36/9, Civil War 47/8, Arab - Israeli War 487/9. All intent on removing & killing Jews in Israel."

These are too many words; please tell me in simple english, what do you mean.

My way or highway; is the message that I get from you; do I hear you clearly? Is this what you are saying?

Best regards

To McNab.

I do not regard the Palestinians as sub-humans.

And the only "rights" I believe in, is political free speech, the right to self defence, and the right of people to elect a democratic government. Every other "right" is subject to scrutiny by the people's parliament.

You want to talk about morality as if it is absolute. Morality is not, never has been, and never will be a moral absolute.

Israel exists. It is not going to go away no matter how much the Mullahs want it to. The Muslims control 99% of the middle east and they want it all. The way to peace, is for the Muslims to go and live 99% of the lands that they have stolen from the Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and pagans, and let the Jews live in the 1% they occupy, which just happens to be their traditional homeland.

Spain is not shooting rockets into Gibraltar. Germany is not shooting rockets into Russia and Poland to get Prussia back. Italy is not shooting rockets into Croatia to get Trieste back. Japan is not shooting rockets into Russia to get Sakhalin Island back. All over the world, there are unresolved territorial claims which could lead to war except for one thing. The people who have these claims are not Muslims, and they prefer peace to war.

After WW2, millions of Germans were expelled from European countries and went back to live in Germany. Millions of Japanese were expelled from Korea and China and sent back to Japan. Nobody complained about that because everybody could see the sense of it. There is a lot to be said for ethnic expulsion and monoculturalism if you want to prevent civil war. Good fences make good neighbours, as Frost so poetically put it.

But the Mullahs will never agree to that, even though they know it will be peace. They don't want peace, they want an enemy for their stupid people to hate. Because if they stopped hating they might start thinking. And if they started thinking, they might figure out how their religion has failed them.

SPQR,

<< Karen Armstrong’s research [upset you]…>>
Upset? LOL
More amused me than anything else!
I think from memory McAdam first name dropped Karen Armstrong ,and then within minutes we had you and Hadi repeating the name . It reminded me of a group of school boys repeating a pat answer and one they didn't really understand.Hilariously immature!

Read a bit more widely NC and you will…hmmm no.. you may understand LOL.

<<As I have been saying, the topic of our discussion is not a faith issue, it is a human issue>>
No it is not. For you and your fellows it is about barracking for your tribe right or wrong.

You are not about being humane or enforcing humane standards
You are about one-eyed cheerleading for Islam --and this is why:
1) “The 1967 war, in which Israel defeated several Arab countries, rubbed salt in the wound by underscoring the collective weakness of Muslim countries…But the loss of Jerusalem to Israel was a blow not just to Arab countries,but Muslim around the world…So with the loss of Aqsa Mosque to Israel, many Muslims felt that ISLAM HAD LOST ITS FORMER GLORY “

2) “One of the reasons the puritans [that’s people like you,NC & Hadi] are so opposed to peace with Israel is due to their belief that Israels very purpose for existence is to defeat and humiliate Muslims as part of the overall Western strategy of containment against the Muslim world”

The above is your real gripe,eh!
Nothing to do with manufactured humanitarian issues.

Who made the above comments ? (some “hate site”?)
No. The admission came from Khaled Abou El Fadl [Professor of Law at the University of California] in his book “The Great Theft: Wresting Islam From The Extremists”

Correction: Of course the above post should be addressed to NC not SPQR.

One has to have a sick mind to address others by wrong titles and throw slurs like
" they want an enemy for their stupid people"

Particularly when the person happens to be a non repentant peddler of lies.

I would rather leave the person, bask in his fantasy as if there are people with full rights and people with half rights, or all are equal but some are more equal than others or as if there are children of a lessor god.

These people who dream of having their way on the strength of arms do not read or act on their own scripture "all who draw sword will die by sword"

McAdam: Dear Jayb, you wrote; "Hamas would be rearmed to the hilt by Iran, the Saudi. Every Islamic Fanatic in the World would be streaming in there in days...

Have you heard of the Black Hand Gang, The Anti-Zionist movement. The Arab Higher Committee. The Palestinian Revolt 36/9, Civil War 47/8, Arab - Israeli War 487/9. All intent on removing & killing Jews in Israel."

These are too many words; please tell me in simple english, what do you mean.

McAdam: You wrote; And lifting the siege and opening Gaza to the world

Explanation to my post:

"Hamas would be rearmed to the hilt by Iran, the Saudi. Every Islamic Fanatic in the World would be streaming in there in days..

Hamas could not be trusted to live in peace.

Explanation to my Post:

Have you heard of the Black Hand Gang, The Anti-Zionist movement. The Arab Higher Committee. The Palestinian Revolt 36/9, Civil War 47/8, Arab - Israeli War 487/9. All intent on removing & killing Jews in Israel."

These are anti Israel Palestinian terrorist groups from the 1920 onwards that caused the Israeli's to defend themselves against attacks on their Kibitz.

You didn't answer any of my simple quiz's. Why is that? Why do you answer my questions with another question? That is typical of Radicals to deflect any question they don't like.

So many questions have gone unanswered. This shows that I must be right. In answering them you would have to admit the truth or lie.

LEGO: But the Mullahs will never agree to that, even though they know it will be peace. They don't want peace, they want an enemy for their stupid people to hate. Because if they stopped hating they might start thinking. And if they started thinking, they might figure out how their religion has failed them.

Can I get an "A bloody MEN" to that....

Jayb writes :- "Can I get an "A bloody MEN" to that...."

Now abusive language?

First getting offended when I quoted them as treating the Palestinians subhumans.
When asked to be specific; answer of course they are not sub human, but human.

Then the elaboration, that Palestinians are humans but have virtually no rights.............Confirming the legitimacy of Apartheid in Gaza/Palestine.

Here is a trio who is attempting to stand firm on the heap of the quick sand of lies.

Each one of them lied:-

SPQR, insisted that a reported Hadith was Quran

LEGO, quoted the fabricated "base matters" version was from Quran. When confronted gave the excuse that he took it from internet, yet considers justified in peddling a lie.

Jayb, hurriedly confirmed that "base matters" version was indeed Quran. When confronted, lied that it was not him but LEGO who did that.

None of this trio of liars has the decency of accepting their mistake but instead have adopted the abusive language.

Now of what use is conversing with these liars who have now resorted to addressing people by wrong titles and adopted abusive language?

They have nothing but lies and abusive language in defense of their indefensible stand.

I can not stoop to their level, nor have I time to chase lies and slurs unleashed by them. So, good luck and good bye to them

My best regards to all those who read and commented on my posts, except these three liers.

For the benefit of Mr. McAdam

I am disappointed with your last post because I was beginning to warm to you. I was willing to attribute you inflammatory outburst to a rare head explosion.And you might have noticed when I referred to extremists in my post above I bracketed NC & Hadi but left you off.

However, your recent post makes me rethink about reappraising that. Since you make some deliberately exaggerated claims.

Like this: <<SPQR, insisted that a reported Hadith was Quran>>
SPQR made the claim and then quickly corrected. (which is more –much more than can be said for your sidekick NC) . Why do you revert to the role of a shonky lawyer trying to get his guilty client off on a technicality?

And this: <<They have nothing but lies and abusive language in defense of their indefensible stand>>
Show me were I lied?--
And, unless you priggishly see teasing asides like this <<You are a pretender NC –and a bad one at that>> as abuse, you wont find me guilty of that either.

The hands-down master of abuse on this thread has been your ally Hadi.

It is a pity that you are still sticking to your tribal loyalties and cannot be factual and non-partisan. But that is perhaps a feature of your creed!

SPQR: “Show me were I lied?”“McAdam first name dropped Karen Armstrong ,and then within minutes we had you and Hadi repeating the name”

Show me where I have mentioned her name, even once? This is simply a tiny helium atom in the universe of your lies. In continuation of your despicable tradition of making a false claim and then having to swallow your spit -> Apologize!

And you know what’s hilarious? Your attempts at being humorous, like watching a train-wreck in slow-motion. You are not funny! Brazen lying is an anathema to a sense of humour. A ‘lol’ in CAPS only amplifies the *wheezing*

@OGLE
Still no response : ) to my very detailed, specific and empathetic questions? Afraid you will be found out by the humanity in you? (Qualification: ‘If any’)

You say Germans expelled went to GERMANY -> Japanese expelled went to JAPAN -> Palestinians should go to______ ?

Yes, Mr OGLE? *PALESTINE!*

Which YOUR TERRORIST STATE OF ISRAEL is STANDING IN THE WAY OF AGAINST THE TIDE OF WORLD OPINION, trampling over UN resolutions?

And these examples you quote are of people expelled from foreign lands, not their own. It’s like re-assuring a cancer patient of how others before him have died painful deaths as well so it’s all good he shouldn't worry, maybe think about examples a bit more before pontificating Mr OGLE?

CONTD

CONTD

@OGLE

OGLE says: “And the only "rights" I believe in, is political free speech, the right to self defense, and the right of people to elect a democratic government”

The Savage Choke-hold maintained by Israel over Palestinian territories, not to mention the *ACT of WAR* -> the inhumane Blockade imposed on Gaza for 8 years? 8 YEARS! Do you know how long a period that is for a population imprisoned in an open air prison completely dependent on the Terrorists next door (The terrorist state of Israel) for letting in food, medicines, aid or other daily essentials of life? Don’t the Palestinians have the right to self-defense? With no standing army, who do they turn to?

The blockade imposed after the Palestinians exercised their right to democratically elect a government which stands for the rights of Palestinians -> Not ACCEPTABLE TO THE ZIONIST "MASTERS" in Israel!

OGLE, You have consistently demonstrated your amazing ability to completely by-pass the OBVIOUS.

Or in your up-side-down universe the third law of motion states “to every REACTION there is an equal and opposite ACTION”? The water is dry and the ice is warm? The sun rises in the west and sets in the east?

OGLE says “They don't want peace, they want an enemy for their stupid people to hate.”

Exactly what Israel is doing and is the premise of this Article as well : )
“Powered by ex-military Israel's political machine has re-invented the pre-medieval blood ritual of the Roman Coliseum, ingeniously; ’cherry picking' provocations in an environment of continuous conflict to justify war games in its Neo-Coliseum (Gaza). Like a hammer needs a nail, a soldier needs an enemy. For at least the time being Hamas is the perfect enemy with a loud bark but toothless bite beyond its borders.”

For once I find myself in agreement with you OGLE

@Hadi,

Hadi Says he doesn't like lies. So to test it we ran a truth scanner (USING HADI’S DEFINITION OF WHAT CONSTITUTES A LIE) across Hadi’s latest post.

The scanner determined that much of it was gobbledygook. It was unable to determine what language it was in. But of the part it deciphered this is what it found:

1) <<Which YOUR TERRORIST STATE OF ISRAEL is STANDING IN THE WAY OF AGAINST THE TIDE OF WORLD OPINION,>> --LIE!
--Junaid Cheema himself produced contrary evidence at the start of this thread -QUOTE : "'Israel has the right to defend itself!' shout the popular headlines.”

2) <<"You say [JAYB] Germans expelled went to GERMANY -> Japanese expelled went to JAPAN ... these examples you quote are of people expelled from foreign lands, not their own> --LIE!
East Prussia had been part of Germany for ages . Sakhalin Island had been part of Japan for ages . So Hadi you LIED!

3) << Savage Choke-hold maintained by Israel over Palestinian territories... a population imprisoned in an open air prison >> - LIE
Egypt controls the southern border –not Israel. So Hadi that claim was a LIE!

4) <<completely dependent on the Terrorists next door (The terrorist state of Israel) for letting in food, medicines, aid or other daily essentials of life?>> LIE
A terrorist state would hardly allow food and medicines in –can you imagine Isis allowing supplies to the trapped Yazidi ? So that is another LIE!

5) << Don’t the Palestinians have the right to self-defense? With no standing army, who do they turn to? >>LIE
. What are the Hamas brigades if not a standing army. FGS they even have training camps .
So another LIE!

So there you have it: FIVE HADI DEFINED BLATANT LIES!

SPQR you should definitely audition for Gollum's character - you sound ssoo much like him "LIES, LIES, HADI LIES,", is it just me or everyone can hear that horrible swallowing noise in his throat? LOL

The rest of your post -> three words for you -> 'Return to Sender' :)

SPQR says:
“Show me were I lied?”“McAdam first name dropped Karen Armstrong ,and then within minutes we had you and Hadi repeating the name”

Show me where I have mentioned her name, even once? This is simply a tiny helium atom in the universe of your lies. In continuation of your despicable tradition of making a false claim and then having to swallow your spit -> Apologize! :)

SPQR,

No response to Stephen Hawking and his conscience which snubbed Israel for its injustices. You must listen to people of conscience more often. Who knows, you may acquire conscience yourself one of these days.

After:
• Karen Armstrong;
• Gideon Levy; and
• Stephen Hawking.

Here is another person of conscience, Professor Noam Chomsky. Professor Chomsky is Institute Professor Emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of Technology where he has taught for more than 50 years. Here is what he says on the main subject we are discussing (pick a point and ask me for reference, you will get it – a real reference):

• In the Occupied Territories, what Israel is doing is much worse than apartheid;

• To call it apartheid is a gift to Israel, at least if by 'apartheid' you mean South African-style apartheid. … There’s a crucial difference. The South African Nationalists needed the black population. That was their workforce. The Israeli relationship to the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories is totally different. They just don’t want them. They want them out, or at least in prison;

• It’s a hideous atrocity, sadistic, vicious, murderous, totally without any credible pretext (comment on what has taken place till the 29th day of attack);

• It’s another one of the periodic Israeli exercises in what they delicately call "mowing the lawn." That means shooting fish in the pond, to make sure that the animals stay quiet in the cage that you’ve constructed for them, after which you go to a period of what’s called "ceasefire,";

• On the recurring periods of "mowing the lawn, he says " This one is, in many ways, more sadistic and vicious even than the earlier ones.

Now your reference: Khaled Abou El Fadl [Professor of Law at the University of California] in his book “The Great Theft: Wresting Islam From The Extremists”

Good to see that you have stepped out of your den of google-searched doubtful material you have been using in your Graffiti posts so far.

Continued …..

SPQR Continued ….

Continuing on your reference to Khaled Abou El Fadl’s book “The Great Theft: Wresting Islam From The Extremists””

The book is about (as its title suggests) reclaiming Islam from what the Author calls “puritans”. Not only there is nothing wrong with it but let me also inform you that a huge number of Muslim scholars today rightfully advocate a necessity for this.

Before, I proceed, REMEMBER that the book you have quoted, demolishes the web of fabrications you and your two friends try to build around Quran and Islam. And this has been done by the Author at least as forcefully as Karen Armstrong did before him (Read the books and then respond).

On fundamentalism in the world:

• The ‘puritans’ of the Author are the fundamentalists of Islam, very much like they exist in other religions.

• You have not read it, but you must read Karen Armstrong’s “The Battle of God – Fundamentalism in Judaism, Christianity and Islam”. Your narrow vision may be broadened a bit when you see similar extremists in other religions as well.

• Like your view of bloodshed in history, your narrow mind sees fundamentalism in Islam ONLY despite mountains of evidence contradicting it.

• ‘Puritans’ of the Author are resented by the mainstream Muslims who constitute the huge majority;

Compare the above with the words of a rabbi Ovadia Yosef – teacher revered by top Islaeli leadership of today “Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that they have not place in the world – only to serve the people of Israel”. With this position, he is made the head of Shas’s Council of Torah Sages and a senior Sephardi adjudicator.

Also, because of extreme positions of somebody somewhere in the world, you justify Israeli atrocities on Palestinians. Hence back to my repeated statement, Palestinian issue is NOT a religious issue, it is a human issue. Back to Professor Noam Chomsky’s comments purely on humanitarian grounds.

[Deleted for abuse.]

NC,

You’re a funny man NC . Not funny in the same way as Hadi mind you (you’re funny in the ha ha sense . The type of funny it would be appropriate to play a Disney jingle to. Whilst Hadi’s funniness would require Twilight Zone music as accompaniment :)

At the first sighting of Khaled Abou El Fadl you stereotype me as someone who has never read similar before –and then you get all besotted with Khaled Abou El Fadl imagining him to be the reinforcements & relief column you and Hadi were in dire need of .

Sorry to disappoint you, but:
1) I have read/ingested many similar tracts in past, and
2) Khaled About El Fadi is NOT your ally

For Khaled Abou El Fadl the problem is the puritans in your creed . And Khaled Abou El Fadl defines both you and Hadi as puritans.

Take a seat and fire up that hookrah and I'll show you why:
According to Khaled Abou El Fadl one of the key qualities of a puritan is they are opposed to the very existence of Israel .
Quote: “One of the reasons the puritans are so opposed to peace with Israel is due to their belief that ISRAELS VERY PURPOSE FOR EXISTENCE is to defeat and humiliate Muslims as part of the overall Western strategy of containment against the Muslim world”

Now I take you back to the start of the thread when this question was repeatedly asked of you:
WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF OCCUPIED TERRITORIES?
And you refused to answer . The only reasonable inference from that would be that you see all of Israel as “occupied territory” ie you oppose the very existence of the state of Israel.

And again re Israel from Khaled Abou El Fadl
QUOTE: “moderate Muslims do not believe that Israel [or the USA are] responsible for the failure of the various Middle Eastern states to develop, modernize and democratize”

And then there’s this other important characteristic of a puritan.
QUOTE:“According to puritans , Britain and France were the chief engineers behind the continuing conspiracy against Islam.But as the United States became the dominant superpower …it became the main culprit”

who could forget these earlier rants of yours:
“ The aging US on irreversible decline, with its young population growingly disgusted with Israel for its crimes against humanity and with the senior politicians for their support for Israel”

“Your Israel too has an uncle for a impartial arbitrator – ‘Uncle Sam’’” LOL (that LOL is especially for Hadi!)

And this is you and Hadi to a tee
“Puritans transform Islam into a creed for which the purpose is to negate and even spite other”

Please break the news to Hadi when he comes back from Mujahideen training.

To Hadi.

If the defeated Germans in 1945 had insisted that it was Germany's destiny to rule all of Europe in the name of a master race of blue eyed, blond haired people, Germany would still be an open aired prison camp.

If Japan in 1945 had insisted that it was going to use force to recreate the "Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere", Japan would still be an open air prison camp.

Recognise Israel's right to exist and start negotiations from there. Keep huffing and puffing over annihilating Israel, and any thing that Israel does for it's self defence is justifiable.

Reform your stupid war mongering religion, tell your mullah's to far cough, and use your wealth to raise the standard of living of your poverty stricken people.

LEGO:
I am still waiting on answers to those three specific questions I put to you - with a detailed preamble. Take your time :)

You say: "If the defeated Germans in 1945 had insisted that it was Germany's destiny to rule .........Germany would still be an open aired prison camp"

Possibly, yes. But as the above is to draw parallels with the current Palestine-Israel issue, I would put you in the same class as the Nazi Apologists of the time convincing the world of how futile it would be to resist the Nazi onslaught, how the "superior" 'blue eyed, blond haired people" should be left to rule -> "What's done is done" -> Resistance is *futile*, will only bring more death and destruction to those resisting, and exhorting the virtues of joining Nazis and hence 'Prospering'

NO! It is NOT OK to terrorize a population out of their towns and villages and then raze them to the ground, wipe off any trace of their existence, build and continue building your metropolises over it, and then shamelessly sell it to the world as merely some 'real estate development' which "gets developed everywhere" as someone on your side has alluded to this great injustice!
And then selectively inviting people from the whole world to settle - based on RELIGION alone - EXCEPT the locals who are treated worse than animals.

Jews have their holy places in the region and should be absolutely free to practice their religion as they see fit, as they were prior to the Zionists setting fire to the region.

Giving Palestinians their right to their own state DOES NOT EQUAL Extermination of all Jews in the region <- this suits Zionist propaganda so they don't have to negotiate, compromise and reach a settlement.

How many times do you want me to repeat the FACT that this is not a RELIGIOUS issue -> Certainly NOT from the Palestinian perspective!

Your comment re religious reform is redundant, has been addressed in previous posts already, moreover its like discussing reforming the philosophical roots of democracy during a MURDER TRIAL!

SPQR,

My recent posts mention:

1. Karen Armstrong – a world renowned authority on history of religions in the present era – who has totally demolished your web of falsehood you try to erect around Quran and Islam;

2. Gideon Levy – an Israel journalist with conscience strong enough to expose what Israel has done to Palestinians in their open-air- prison;

3. Stephen Hawking – The world’s leading scientist and man of conscience who has snubbed Israel for its crimes against Palestinians;

4. Professor Noam Chomsky, Institute Professor of Emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of Technology USA, who tells the world what Israel is doing to Palestinians is much worse than Apartheid; and the next person today is:

5. Uri Avnery – the former member of the Knesset and an Israeli writer who write weekly columns published in several countries and is the author of many books.

Here is what Uri Avnery has to say about your Israel:

• THE ISRAELI media are now totally subservient. There is no independent reporting. "Military correspondents" are not allowed into Gaza to see for themselves, they are willingly reduced to parroting army communiqués, presenting them as their personal observations.

• A huge herd of ex-generals are trotted out to "comment" on the situation, all saying EXACTLY THE SAME, EVEN USING THE SAME WORDS. The public swallows all this propaganda as gospel truth.

• The small voice of Haaretz, with a few commentators like Gideon Levy and Amira Hass, is drowned in the deafening cacophony.

• For viewers of the Israeli media, Hamas is the incarnation of evil

• I (Mr Avnet) escaped from this brainwashing by listening to both sides

Interestingly, I have not heard from you what you have to say about comments of the above people, lethal as they are to the Israeli position, in my recent posts.

Instead, with your typical Red Herring, you repeat your question that I have unequivocally answered more than once: WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF OCCUPIED TERRITORIES?
Continued ….

SPQR, Continued …….

I have said so many times, that Occupied Territories are the ones to be declared by an impartial third-party arbitration. Some of people I have noted above: Gideon Levy, Professor Noam Chomsky and others also talk about the occupied territories in clear terms. You repeat the question in a hope that I will give you my definition in contradiction to what I said before – THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

And the other item of your Red Herring, you repeat so many times in your post is the ‘puritans”. What these puritans subscribe to is an extremely abhorred version of Islam by the mainstream Muslims and ONE CANNOT AGREE MORE with Khaled Abou El Fadl in this regard.

As I said in my post dated 13th, El Fadl’s book “is about (as its title suggests) reclaiming Islam from what the Author calls “puritans”. Not only there is nothing wrong with it but let me also inform you that a huge number of Muslim scholars today rightfully advocate a necessity for this.”

Your push on puritans is to defame Islam and by extension say that because of that Palestinians deserve what is happening to them. For this, you are willing to forget the fact that extremism exists in other religions as well and is equally despised by the mainstream. You also forget the likes of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef – teacher revered by top Islaeli leadership of today “Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that they have not place in the world – only to serve the people of Israel”. With this position, he is made the head of Shas’s Council of Torah Sages and a senior Sephardi adjudicator.

If you try to repeat the answered questions, I will only say Red Herring and return to the emerging long list people of conscience in the world and what they have to say on the main subject.

Why don’t you admit that you have run out of arguments after the readers can see through you and irrefutable mass of evidence is piling in front of you.

NC,

There is a strong taste of the rabid zealot in your approach this issue (and most others I'd hazard a guess) -- and which should serve as warning to the greater Australian community.

You come at us speaking the language of human rights , fairness and justice.

However, when we point out Hamas’ history of deceit you pass over it without the slightest acknowledgement. To even question Hamas’ claims will get one labelled a “Zionist troll”.

You cherry pick critics of Israel and brandish them as if they seal your case. And you think it his especially telling that some of these critics are still inside Israel. But when asked as to why we can’t find parallel examples under Hamas -- or for that matter most Arab states—you tell us unrepentantly that citizens of such polities don’t need such rights.

You boast that Islam has a squeaky clean history but when we cite sources that tell otherwise. You dismiss them as hate sites and cling for dear life to the much debunked Karen Armstrong: http://www.newenglishreview.org/Hugh_Fitzgerald/Karen_Armstrong%3A_The_Coherence_of_Her_Incoherence/ . One could well imagine in an NC controlled Oz, Karen Armstrong would be the only source we were allowed to read .

Similarly, with Khaled About El Fadi, when I first brought him into the discussion you chimed <<The book is about … reclaiming Islam from what the Author calls “puritans”. Not only there is nothing wrong with it but let me also inform you that a huge number of Muslim scholars today rightfully advocate a necessity for this.>>

But when we read that Khaled About El Fadi diagnosed the main problem with Islam was the dominance of what he called puritans and he defined the key characteristics of such puritans as
i) A commitment to removing the state of Israel.
ii) The seeing of the US as main party to some world-wide anti-Islamic conspiracy.
iii) The transforming Islam into a creed to negate and even spite others (you and Hadi to a Tee!)

After that revelation, you didn’t want a bar of Khaled About El Fadi!

NC (continued)

My question to you about what constituted “occupied territories ” in your mind was to determined where YOU fitted on Khaled About El Fadi's puritanism scale. What I want is YOUR response not some <<impartial third-party arbitration.>> And just as an aside I wouldn't trust any third party you would endorse. Instead, I got the usual incoherent rant of a zealot which indirectly showed me beyond doubt you were indeed a life time member of the puritans --and what Khaled About El Fadi defined as the one of the problems besetting current-day Islam.


In closing, a special mention must be made of Hadi’s skillset. With this sort nack for empty promises << Giving Palestinians their right to their own state DOES NOT EQUAL Extermination of all Jews in the region >> Hadi has a huge career ahead of him as a used car salesman!

SPQR -> No amount of finesse can make up for a total lack of substance. The sophistication with which you drop the usual insinuations e.g. “should serve as warning to the greater Australian community” AND MANUFACTURE the convoluted self-serving narrative has been exposed time and again on this forum yet you persist with it convinced of your ‘superior Zionist intelligence and intellect’

-> to put it simply (I choose my words very carefully here, no offence intended)-> “a moron in a three piece suit is still a moron” and habitual deceitfulness wrapped up in the fabric of intellect can be spotted from light years away.

Only you can’t see the reality -> the rest of us can, you will too, once the world hurls you down from your high and mighty pedestal of ‘Zionist superiority”

I don’t know if our Aussie friends will be madder at you for the terrible atrocities committed against the Palestinians OR just the absolute contempt displayed for their intelligence.

The sooner you realize the above the earlier I can accommodate you in my Troll Rehabilitation Program.

Whilst I am flattered at your recognition of my talents, I gave up hope on a career as a used car salesman when I saw the long queue ahead of me composed entirely of Gaudy Zionist lobbyists, Articulate apologists, and Virulent trolls, before you get excited -> you may still be rejected for being over qualified for the job

Hadi,

As I said before: Get a load of Hadi @ full throttle:

<<nothing but a character constructed by a Zionist troll>>
<< two, Virulent Zionist Trolls here>>
<< you ‘Wolves in Kangaroo skin’>>
<< Apprentice trolls>>
<< a supervisor level troll>>
<< and crammed *filth*>>
<< our Virulent Zionist Trolls here>>

And that was all from one post!

NOW CLOSE YOUR EYES AND IMAGINE LIVING NEXT TO A VILLAGE OF HADI'S
WHAT A WONDERFUL MULTICULTURALLY ENRICHING EXPERIENCE THAT WOULD BE,EH!

Dontcha worry bout that SPQR :)

Aussies like and respect the rustic 'tell it like it is' ways of "Villager Hadis" <- much preferred any day to -> the vile and scheming sophistry of a fancy swindler such as yourself :)

Keep *regurgitating* your MANUFACTURED lies and keep CONSTRUCTING your FARCICAL narratives -> I don’t know if our Aussie friends will be madder at you for the terrible atrocities committed against the Palestinians OR just the absolute contempt displayed for their intelligence. :)

SPQR,
My recent posts mention:

1. Karen Armstrong – a world renowned authority on history of religions in the present era – who has totally demolished your web of falsehood you try to erect around Quran and Islam;
2. Gideon Levy – an Israel journalist with conscience strong enough to expose what Israel has done to Palestinians in their open-air- prison;
3. Stephen Hawking – The world’s leading scientist and man of conscience who has snubbed Israel for its crimes against Palestinians;
4. Professor Noam Chomsky, Institute Professor of Emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of Technology USA, who tells the world what Israel is doing to Palestinians is much worse than Apartheid;:
5. Uri Avnery – the former member of the Knesset and an Israeli writer who says that Israeli media generate totally false propaganda which Israeli public swallows as gospel tructh; and the next person today is:
6. Ilan Pappe – Professor of history and director of the European Centre for Palestine Studies at the University of Exeter and author of several books. According to him:

o The people in Gaza Strip are being incarcerated as criminals, and their only crime is that they are Palestinians in a geopolitical location that Israel does not know how to deal with;

o The real cause of the current Israeli attack goes back to June this year, when Israel decided, by force, to try and demolish the Hamas politically in the West Bank and foil the attempts of the unity government of Palestine to push forward an international campaign to bring Israel to justice on the basis of the agenda of human rights and civil rights;

o One can resolve the current crisis by lifting the siege, by allowing the people of Gaza to be connected with their brothers and sisters in the West Bank, and by allowing them to be connected to the world and not to live under circumstances that no one else in the world seems to experience at this moment in time.

Your post of the 15th, lacks anything new.

Continued ….

SPQR, Continued ……

Dismissing your ‘occupied territory’ Red Herring, I go to your other subject, and that repeated too, as you are really out of material.

You repeated that puritans say that US supports Israel, whosoever thinks that US supports Israel must be a puritan. Morbid logic! Pretty much like, puritans eat, you eat therefore you are a puritan.

Get out of your dark burrow. Listen to the world – you will hear the unanimous verdict that US supports Israel. Without US vetos, Israel must have been tried for crimes against humanity by now and awarded punishment it really deserves.

The world press is shouting against Israel at the pitch of its voice – all puritans?

How about Brazilian President, Dilma Vana Rousseff, who called Israeli actions a ‘massacre’ – a puritan?

You should know that after Brazilian President, Dilma Vana Rousseff, called her ambassador from Israel, a zealot Israeli official called Brazil a ‘diplomatic dwarf’ following which Latin America tightened its screws on Israel and guess what – Israeli president apologised.

Bolivian President Evo Morales has labeled Israel a "terrorist state" for its brutalities in Palestine – a puritan

Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and Venezuela have said they "energetically condemn the disproportionate use of force by the Israeli army in the Gaza Strip, which in the majority affects civilians, including children and women." – all puritans?

Do you know how South Africans are reacting to Israel brutalities? They suffered Apartheid and closely identify with Palestinians. Listen to them and call them puritans!

And I have cited only a small part of a wide world outranged at Israel. How many of them you can discard as puritans – The world conscience, Mr SPQR, is closing in on you.

Today’s question for you: Why is Latin America and South Africa (leave the rest of the world for now) is furious with Israel. Do Israeli actions have something to do with it or its all their own fault. Quite interested to know your view on this.

The bitterness in our debate is..avoidable. The attacks on each other's; person, beliefs, history or people, are uncalled for. They take us away from the topic.
The topic being, Junaid's statement that the indiscriminate killing in Gaza is being cheered on, in the style of spectators of a Roman Colosseum and is being trivialized as cutting the grass.

The present discussion, on the justifications for Israeli actions , is a separate topic. Israel supporters are bound to be affected by mainstream media in USA, which is siding with Israel. People do get affected by what they read and hear. After all how many of us are like Professor Noam Chomsky to have; the ability of making independent judgement? And how many of us invest their time to find the truth first hand like Anna Baltzer of IWPS (please google)? I am sure some would be convinced that siding with the "terrorist Hamas" is immoral. Others are saying, Israel has no legitimate reason for the genocide. Both sides can not convince each other, as it is impossible to do so, through the kind of conversation we are having. So why even try it? Why not just agree to disagree and focus on the point of primary importance to all of us individually? The point of having to answer for one's own actions. Those who choose to side with Israel, have the right to do so. They just aught to be prepared for the consequences of their choice as I have to be for mine.

To me, current situation in Gaza, is similar to the situations repeatedly faced by humanity before:-
1) Most people supported Racial Segregation in USA and some who were a tiny minority had a dream of equality.
2) Most supported what is now known as Nazi Holocaust of Jews. Majority meekly acquiesced the Nazi actions and others in a tiny minority opposed it.
3) And very recently, as most of us saw it first hand, majority supported the Apartheid in South Africa and others, a tiny minority, opposed it.

Time showed who was on the right side.
Cont!

Cont?
I have made my decision, I am with the oppressed people of Gaza/Palestine who are being subjected to Segregation, Apartheid and Holocaust, all at once. I have to be prepared to face the consequences of the choice that I make; when I look in the mirror and when I have to answer my children and their children if asked tomorrow, who's side I was on, when it was happening.?

I know this debate is already going on,right now, within Israel and in the Jewish communities world wide, particularly in USA. And that the "killer gene" the tendency to depression and tendency to self harm, is imbedded in all of us. What we do today, may make us feel good about ourselves tomorrow or depress us, to death. The rate of suicide in USA is increasing, where it is being termed as a "silent epidemic", particularly in the veterans of Iraq and Afghan Wars and in Israel, where number one cause of death in IDF is; not rockets, not bullets, not suicide attacks but suicides by the IDF members themselves. And why in IDF? Because they know what the reality is, as the rest of Israel is treated by the controlled media, like mushrooms; kept in the dark and fed manure. Then there are the voices emanating from within the Jewish community that Israel is not threatened from without as much as from within; by the reliance of the Zionist on the use of state terrorism, rather than reason.

And when one hears "logic" like "Palestinians are not subhuman but they virtually have no rights" or the use of abusive language, one is clear that there is no reasonable argument left with the Zionists. It is not about winning or loosing this debate but about bracing up to bear the consequences of individual and collective decisions. Please brace up, and that applies to all of us, there is no escaping it.

Best regards