Nationalism and patriotism are woefully overrated as virtues.

I don't believe it's acceptable for anyone in a civil society to wear a mask, but if a woman who identifies as a Maltese muslim supports and believes in democracy, free speech, peace and progress, then she is more of an ally to me than our home-grown White Australia throwbacks and their foreign equivalents.

What moral and intellectual poverty leads people to believe that the result of a genetic lottery should be the basis for unity, rather than the values and principles we actively choose?

"I don't believe it's acceptable for anyone in a civil society to wear a mask"

And therein could lie the problem Sancho.

To elaborate, my favourite shop assistant at Meyers is a delightful Muslim girl who wears the hijab. We've had many pleasant conversations - face to face.

Regarding the niqab, I am reminded that my mother was born profoundly deaf. Many thought she was a "foreigner" due to her speech impediment.

She learnt to lip read very well and interpret facial expressions. Some silly cows would grab her shoulder and yell into her ear rather than face her and clearly enunciate their words.

Now I wonder if she was still living, how she could interpret what women are saying under a niqab with only slits for the eyes. I shudder to think of how distressing a muffled voice behind a veil would be for a deaf person who doesn't sign read - particularly the elderly who are losing their hearing.

Forgive the hyperbole but the niqab gives a sinister appearance to those unaccustomed to this garb. Most Muslim women wear only the hijab, perfectly acceptable in my opinion, for you know who you're talking to and you can identify them at a later date.

Those who persist in wearing the niqab (for reasons unknown) need to be a little more senstive to the customs of the land in which they reside and reflect on the old adage:

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do!"

Hey I put the Community Law Resource Group in Google, and some of the worst porn I have seen in a long time came up. I did it again ant the second time it was alright. It is weird how sometimes the net goes pear shaped. Bit like Australia really. Australia went pear shaped when we chose to elect Bob Menzies, and started nearly sixty years of rule by lawyers. It was a ruddy good thing that the Labor Party chose a diplomat over a lawyer as their leader.

Lawyers are like fire. Fire is a great servant keeping you warm in winter and cooking when you cook with gas, but out of control it is a total menace like in Victoria. We have been playing with fire for nearly sixty years. We have elevated lawyers to the substitute position of Almighty God, and lawyers tell us we must worship the State instead of Almighty God. This is a reversion to the state of affairs pre Exodus, when the Egyptians held the Jews in slavery. When the State becomes a God, as it has in nine different jurisdictions in Australia the result is un-Australian.

Who are the most un-Australian people of all, the Judges and Magistrates. Who passed legislation to dowse the flames of slavery, the Paul Keating’s government. To have a Slave State there have to be slave masters, and in every Slave State there have been officers. These officers are the Judges and Magistrates appointed from the legal profession to keep you and me working for peanuts and treated like monkeys.

The Paul Keating’s government made it the equivalent of a hanging offence, 25 years imprisonment, for one human being to exercise powers of ownership over another. It is S 268:10 Criminal Code Act 1995 ( Cth) . It says ownership can include, exercise a power arising from a debt incurred or contract made by a person.

This effectively made nugatory the IR laws that fired up the Labor Party faithful, introduced by former Clayton Utz Lawyer, JH. Where were the Labor Lawyers when needed. The Constitution rules

Pied Piper,

You said "Me and you Banjo are going to have this conversation forever, probably along the lines of it taking two to tango. Are they displaced, stuck, bitter – can’t return? Are there any online we can ask?"

My inital thought on that was that the Lebs anti-social conduct has, unfortunately, given all muslims a tarnished reputation.

There was a poster here called 'Fellow Human' who was muslim and good to discuss things with,but have not seen him for quite a while. Dont know of any other muslim posters. Irfan Yussuf is muslim and writes articles sometimes for OLO and takes part in discussions. His profile is

http://www.blogger.com/profile/12032825228704836828

He runs a few blogs and I have found him good and informative. He most likely answer your questions. He once called me a 'secular bigot' which I thought funny and he calls muslim shieks 'Thick shakes' I think he is genuine and trys to improve relations of muslims and others in our community

Other than that you could google say muslim women orgs. Muslim village is a muslim blog but may not be your thing.

If you want to find opinions of those that embrace forced marriages or FGM, I don't know where you would find them.

Hope that helps.

Banjo,

You are probably right. I should know better than to expect anything different. It’s probably about time I moved on. We plebs cannot influence politicians. I laughed last night when Turnbull declared that the Government was acting like a dictatorship. They all do when they get there. If Turnbull ever gets into Government, he will act like a dictator too.

Antonios,

We are a multiracial country because we have a non-discriminatory immigration policy. You may call it multicultural if you wish. I have no problem with people of different races living here as long as they play by our rules. The thing I hate is the multiculturalism industry which has a lot of people – few with Anglo names – with their snouts firmly in the trough. This industry never admits fault, and as soon as anyone criticises it, it deals the ‘racist’ card. The industry will not admit to the fact that many immigrants of different cultures are not prepared to fit in. The industry thinks that it is up to the host culture to change. Rubbish! The sooner the multiculturalism industry is abandoned the better. Multiracialism is OK; but the deliberately enforced (without consultation) government policy and costly bureaucracy of multiculturalism has to go.

The U.S. has never had an official policy of multiculturalism, but it is the melting pot for the world. Immigrants can keep their old culture if they wish, but they are expected to be Americans.

I see that your nephew likes to be Greek, but when it suits him (to dodge military service), he relies on an Australian passport to protect himself from doing something that he doesn’t like about being Greek.

Sancho,

Islam does not allow democracy or free speech. Allah’s word is law. No Muslim can ever be an ‘ally’ to an infidel like you and me. And the whole point of this thread was that some among us do not want unity, even the sort you mention: “values and principles we actively choose”. Their values and principles are not the same as ours.

Leigh “if all Australians of choice were like him we would have no problems at all.”

Yes, in a perfect world, we would all be like me :-)

Unfortunately, the world is not perfect and we have to endure the rambles of the rabble.

ASymeonakis “very patriotic texts for UK on the forums…”

I am not particularly patriotic for Britain itself but I do support many of the values it represents, like work ethic, freedom of speech, democratic elections. I chose to come to Australia because there were aspects of UK which I disliked and disagreed with, like a class riddled social structure and too much nepotism.

“It is seemed to me that now you change mind!”

not at all.. my view of UK is consistent with what I have often written.

My references to paying taxes and voting etc. were to illustrate how I fully participate in Australian society versus how I do not participate in UK society.

“why one poster on this forum said to you that you do not belong in Australia”

I am not responsible for what other say. I would observe, however, that it said because that poster pursues a strategy of ad hominine attacks, instead of valid argument, largely because he is a retarded moron with the debating prowess of an earthworm.

I am not, nor have I ever been a US citizen. Although I did hold a green card and lived there for a number of years and have many friends and relatives there. I further respect the US general methods of government, prefering some of their institutions to UK and Australian practices (like electing judges and civic officials) although we can all find disagreement in the detail of some things… (like the stupid proportional voting arrangements for the Australian Senate).

Sancho “Nationalism and patriotism are woefully overrated as virtues.”

Yes but they are preferable to the alternative…..

“Internationalism” (where no one belongs or identifies with anywhere and we all live in fear of big government).