Daily Telegraph, 24/7/70.

A bus driver attempts to stop a Muslim woman from boarding his bus because it is ‘against the law’ to wear a mask on the bus. The woman says it’s not against the law (she’s right, as far as I know). The woman eventually boards the bus.

The usual stuff continues. She wants the driver ‘educated’; the bus company is investigating. Fair enough.

The thing that stands out is that the woman, BORN IN PARRAMATTA, says, ‘I’m Maltese and I’m Muslim because I choose to be Muslim.’

Nothing about being a born and bred Australian!

Why should we sympathise with people who deny their nationality?

Article 18 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights permits this woman to manifest her religion. As a federal law it overrules any State law by virtue of the Constitution. It is a bit ironic that a Muslim woman can call upon an Australian to get educated. She can do that because we have allowed ourselves to be subjugated to law, rather than seek justice. As a Muslim she can call upon Christian law to protect her beliefs.

I have no problem with that. We would not get reciprocal rights in Indonesia, where Schapelle Corby languishes in a prison, because the law there is not Christian, despite the fact she is a Christian, and entitled under the Indonesian constitution to be treated as a Christian. As a Christian she should have been offered a jury trial by fellow Australians, instead she was forced to submit to arbitrary judgment, and may have been executed except for some strong Christian support from Australia, and the damage such a move would have done to tourism. Allah is merciful, but not to Christians.

We really do need a better education system though. We should start with a reading and writing course for Judges and Magistrates. They should be compelled to read the Australian Constitution from cover to cover, and taught that punctuation and capital letters are important to the understanding of the Constitution. The Muslim woman herself should have been taught in School, that the Holy Bible is the basis of the Australian Constitution, and if she wants to stay in this country, she should know that.

Everyone owes allegiance to Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, or should leave. Until we repudiate Almighty God as Australian Sovereign, She is his representative, and if a Muslim man or woman is happy to owe allegiance to Her, he or she should be allowed to stay. If not, then there are a whole host of Islamic countries north of us who could show hospitality. We are a tolerant country, and provided the Muslim woman does not break any serious laws, what harm was she doing

It is an interesting issue, though. I think some people deny their nationality because their ethnicity is always forced down their throat. I am an immigrant, but am widely accepted as Australian because of my Anglo-Saxon background. I have a friend who was born in Australia, as were both of his parents. All four of his grandparents were born in Italy. He considers himself Australian, but has spent his life being called a wog and being told that his opinions don't count because he's a foreigner. He could be forgiven, I think, for reverting to his Italian heritage and starting to consider himself an Italian, when everyone else sees him that way as well.

I guess it works both ways. This Maltese Muslim woman denies her Australianness, and as a result of attitudes like hers Australians deny the Australianness of others. The responsibility lies with the ethnic communities to decide what they are - then the rest of us can treat them accordingly.

Leigh: << Why should we sympathise with people who deny their nationality? >>

Simple - you don't have to. However, we all should respect the rights of others to go about their lawful business, even if we don't like them particularly. The bus driver here is clearly exceeding his lawful authority.

Also, as far as I know, there's no law - or even expectation, in most circumstances - that requires Australians to assert their nationality. Indeed, in my experience those who do so most stridently are those with whom I generally have very little "sympathy".

Leih
Most Australians have two citizenships, me too, I have one Greek and the other Australian. You can have two citizenships too if you want, Most European Countries give citizenship and pasport to people whose parents-grandparents etc was their citizens.
The Muslim Woman probably had two citizenships, Australian and Malteze. She use her Maltese pasport because Malta is member of the European Union and she could move, stay or work in any European Country witout problems, if she use the Australian pasport she could have problems etc.
Simple this women as ALL AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS WITH TWO PASPORTS USE THE PASPORT WHICH GIVE THEM (ME TOO) THE MOST ADVANDAGES.
My nefew when goes to European Union uses hie Greek pasport but when he goes to Greece he use his Australian Pasport, (as Greek he must go for military training, compulsary)
If she is muslim or not is an other story. Howard government change the law and now even for Australians who became citizens from an other country, as USA, the keep their Australian citizenship, even when they abandom their Australian citizenship, (as to become USA citizen,)
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Leigh,

When is an Australian not an Australian?

Gosh, that's a tough question. And I'm not sure
if I can express it properly.
But I'll try.

I'd have to say that it's when in their hearts people don't
feel a sense of belonging to the nation. When
they don't feel a sense of loyalty and pride in
the nation's culture and history.
Basically Leigh, I guess it's what you feel in
your heart.

As the old saying goes, "East, West, Home is Best!"
You hear people waxing lyrical and singing songs
like, "Take Me Back To ..." wherever.
And Home has got this hold over you. You can feel it
coming through to your soul. I remember while travelling
overseas - I spotted what I thought was wattle growing
by the roadside (it turned out not to be). But the emotion
I felt. I knew it was time to return home. No matter where
you live (and I've lived in various places) there is
always a moment when you're on a plane and someone asks,
"Where are you going?" and you reply, "Home!" Oh What
A Feeling!"

As for the lady you speak of in your opening post...
Leigh, I'm not sure that you're judging her correctly.
People often don't express themselves very well when
being confronted ( as she was by the bus driver).
Her reply, "I'm Maltese," may simply have been a reference
to her ancestry - her parentage. And the fact that her
religion is Muslim, shouldn't come into the equation at all.

You may be pre-judging wrongly here.

Dear Leigh,

When is an Australian not an Australian?

Gosh, that's a tough question. And I'm not sure
if I can express it properly.
But I'll try.

I'd have to say that it's when in their hearts people don't
feel a sense of belonging to the nation. When
they don't feel a sense of loyalty and pride in
the nation's culture and history.
Basically Leigh, I guess it's what you feel in
your heart.

As the old saying goes, "East, West, Home is Best!"
You hear people waxing lyrical and singing songs
like, "Take Me Back To ..." wherever.
And Home has got this hold over you. You can feel it
coming through to your soul. I remember while travelling
overseas - I spotted what I thought was wattle growing
by the roadside (it turned out not to be). But the emotion
I felt. I knew it was time to return home. No matter where
you live (and I've lived in various places) there is
always a moment when you're on a plane and someone asks,
"Where are you going?" and you reply, "Home!" Oh What
A Feeling!"

As for the lady you speak of in your opening post...
Leigh, I'm not sure that you're judging her correctly.
People often don't express themselves very well when
being confronted ( as she was by the bus driver).
Her reply, "I'm Maltese," may simply have been a reference
to her ancestry - her parentage. And the fact that her
religion is Muslim, shouldn't come into the equation at all.

It is more than time the double passport business was stopped, it is an open invitation to rort. You choose to live in Australia, you accept the benefits this country gives you, you should, in return, owe this country some loyalty.
If you find you cannot offer any loyalty, you should leave.
Anyone who makes Australia home should be prepared to live by Australian rules and they are pretty tolerant rules. Respectable dress is fine but face coverings should not be permitted for security's sake. Plus most Australians find them repulsive.
Life here should be give and take but we find most of the newcomers only believe in the 'take' bit.

I at first thought it better to stay out of this.
It is my view the bus driver as wrong, so too is the woman, maybe she wants to be a victim?
Not that she wears that thing but that she denies her nationality, no time for her.
But AS how do you conclude MOST Australians have two nationality's?
You stray far from reality my Friend often.
It is not even close to being true.
That bought me to this thread your continuing claims about my country and its people baffle me.

Leigh, was that a misprint regarding the date of the incident you related? You wrote "Daily Telegraph, 24/7/70".

As has been stated, she may have had dual citizenship, but from memory I think this is only possible in Australia after April 2002. If she did have dual citizenship, then she is just as Maltese as she is Australian.

If this incident did take place 39 years ago, why did you choose such an old incident?

Peter The Believer, Schapelle Corby was sent to prison there NOT "because the law is not christian" as you have stated; she was imprisoned because she BROKE INDONESIAN LAW regarding the transportation of illegal drugs. Like many religious fundamentalists - - - - you TWIST THE TRUTH!

Here's a fact that most people are ignorant of - - - if any person was born in Australia, or migrated to here, prior to 26/01/1949 they could not possibly be "Australian citizens" at the time.

The status of "Australian citizen" did not exist before that time.

All Australians were "British subjects" until 26/01/1949. Only after that date, were they Australian citizens.

“Why should we sympathise with people who deny their nationality?”

Good verb there Leigh.

It is a privilege to have two or more citizenships! Most countries accept it, including Australia, but in some countries as UK, ISRAEL, GREECE, GERMANY ETC YOU CAN TAKE THE CITIZENSHIP EVEN IF YOU ARE TEENTH GENERATION MIGRANT IN AN OTHER COUNTRY!
"But AS how do you conclude MOST Australians have two nationality's?" Because most australians come from european countries and because it is an advantage to have two or more pasports!

Foxy "I'd have to say that it's when in their hearts people don't
feel a sense of belonging to the nation. When
they don't feel a sense of loyalty and pride in
the nation's culture and history.
Basically Leigh, I guess it's what you feel in
your heart."
What do you say Foxy, can you tell that I am not Australian because I desagree with you? Can you tell me that I am not Australian because I do not like Howard's Australia? Can you tell me that GERMANS WAS NOT GERMANS BECAUSE THEY WAS AGAINST HITLER'S GERMANY? Are you joking Foxy?
Do you give the right to any extrem nationalist to call any one NON australian, to expell from Australia or take the Australian pasport because he/she do not feel proud or do not love Australia? Which Australia? Proud for what? EVERY AUSTRALIA CITIZEN IS AUSTRALIAN AND NONE CAN TELL ANY AUSTRALIAN WHAT TO LOVE AND WHAT TO HATE, FOR WHAT TOP BE PROUD AND FOR WHAT TO FEEL SHAME. Only Stalin, Hitler or other paranoic dictators put limits and terminated the chitizenship from their opponents. In a democracy every one believes and supports what he/she believes and none can deny his australian citizenship!

mickijo the australia rules accept the double citizenchip, learn the Australian rules, even Australia accept australians to be MPs or Senators in other countries!

The Pied Piper "Good verb there Leigh"
My good friend I am not pythia to understand the meanibg from your post but I thing I agree!
Antonis
Adelaide

AS,

I think you need to check the dual citizenship arrangements of other countries before you make bold assertions. I am a British citizen only by a stroke of luck. My mother was born in England, and my father was born in Kenya to Welsh parents. My mother's birthplace is enough to give me right of abode in England, but not citizenship. My dad's ancestry is not enough to give me any citizenship rights. It is only by a stroke of luck - Kenya was a crown colony at the time of my father's birth, and therefore 'English soil' (thus my dad was born in England) - that I am able to claim British citizenship. My kids won't have that right.

As for the use of passports, I proudly state that I am Australian. I have Australian citizenship and an Australian passport. I am entitled to a New Zealand passport, a British passport and (probably) a Zimbabwean passport, as I was born in Zimbabwe to permanent residents of that country and former Rhodesian citizens. I don't have any of those passports, though, and am unlikely to apply for one. But it's comforting to know that I could if I wanted to - you never know what the future may hold.

"The Pied Piper "Good verb there Leigh"
My good friend I am not pythia to understand the meanibg from your post but I thing I agree!"

S'okay my good friend... I don't know what "pythia" means. The verb (or "doing word" as I learnt at school) that Leigh used was SYMPATHIZE, also can mean to "understand".

I also wonder why if the woman was born and bred here why she did not feel she could identify herself as an Australian. I understand if she identified herself as Muslim first - since the conflict was about her religeous attire.

I don't get what you thought that Foxy said wrong?

Otoko = Bloody spoilt![smile]

Dear Antonios,

Kindly don't put words into my mouth.
Re-read my post - and try to understand
what I'm really saying.

At no time did I say that you were not allowed
to criticize the governments of Australia or any other
country. That's not the issue here. Besides, that
goes without saying in most democracies.
And, I certainly don't expect you to agree with me.

And, there is not need for you to preach to me about
Stalin and Hitler and their regimes. My family members
suffered under both.

What I was saying to Leigh was that the most important
thing about what makes an Australian, (or Greek, or whoever...)
was the love people felt in their hearts -
(that is the love of their country) ,
that's what mattered - when it came to belonging
to a particular nation.
I quoted this very basic genuine feeling -
simply because of the fact
that there were so many in the country my parents came
from who sold their country out to the communists. Thereby
showing they had no love in their hearts for the nation.

If you can't understand that Antonios - that's not my
problem - but yours.

If you can't understand this simple concept - then I guess
that's your problem.

Otokonoko
"My mother's birthplace is enough to give me right of abode in England, but not citizenship", "I am entitled to a New Zealand passport, a British passport.." My english is not very good. Do you mean you can have british pasport but not british citizenship? Is not it strange?

The Pied Piper
My friend "if the woman was born and bred here why she did not feel she could identify herself as an Australian" She had European pasport with full rights as European citizen and you expected from her to tell that she is Australian and lose her rights as European citizen? Australians in Europe are foreigners with limited rights but not Maltize!(THEY ARE MEMBER OF EUROPEAN UNION)
My friend EVERY ONE WITH DOUBLE PASPORTS USE EACH PASSPORT ACCORDING TO ADVANTAGES FROM IT!
In NEW ZEALAND I WILL USE AUSTRALIAN, IN FRANCE I WILL USE EUROPEAN, OK?
"I don't get what you thought that Foxy said wrong?"
My good friend in every country the extrem nationalists want to take the passport and citizenship from migrants if they do not line with them. If I accept that Australian is someone who believe or feel as the other Australians then I give to nationalists the right to punish the migrants, as non australians. Many and famous Americans When Bush elected as USA president said "I feel shame because I am American" Many times people say these thinks. Do you think we will give the right to extrem nationalists or to opponents to take our passports and expell us? NO! AUSTRALIA IS EVERY AUSTRALIAN CITIZEN AND HOW AND WHAT HE THING AND FEEL ABOUT AUSTRALIA IS HIS BUSINESS!
I try my good friend to protect migrants rights from extremists. Greek military junta took many pasports of Greeks overseas because they was against the junta. I am against it, I want to protect migrants and the freedom of expresion. OK my good friend? Some times I do not understand you I hope you forgive me!
Antonis Symeonakis
Adelaide

Foxy
My worries is not to give any point any one that there are australians not australians, because may be one day some extrem nationalists use it to punish the "non Australians" or may be people will not express their thoughts because they will worry not to tell them "non australian" Australian is every Australian citizen! NO discussion about it! Do you understand me Foxy?
Foxy your first paragraph was soft and I hardened it!
I prefer to sent strait, clear messeges! Sorry if sometimes I seem hard to you! We use different tactics! You try to be friendly, I provoce and I am noisy I try the others to remember what I said, to think about it, to discuss about it! I do not care very much if one more hate me! One more do not change the balance! I know that I can not have friends if I do not have enemies!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

One of the most evil inventions is "nationalism". You can love a country without being a nationalist. Nationalism causes conflict, it pits one against another, it's a breeding ground for misunderstanding and fear of difference.

You can equally love one, two, three, four or more countries. And that's a GOOD THING. Because you love one country, doesn't mean you love another country less. Because you live in a certain way in your country, does not give you the right to insist that others live the exact same way. In free societies such as ours we are ALL subject to the "LAW". The law (in these modern times) is not written for only "ONE" section of society. ALL sections of society have an input, and that is as it should be. And if someone doesn't like the democratic processes that enable this, TOO BAD!

Australia is changing.

Australia has ALWAYS been in a state of change.

Australia, even in the dark days of the White Australia Policy, has NEVER been a mono culture.

If that woman in the bus saw herself as Maltese on that occasion, then good on her. That doesn't mean she doesn't see herself as Australian, or that she loves Australia any less than Malta. Some people have multiple countries they love. So what!

Eventually, probably hundreds of years away, we will all grow up and dispose of international borders. World travel, migration and where we live and work will be subject to only the necessary health parameters. We will be able to freely travel to and live in the location of our choice, anywhere in the world. Just like we're now able to freely travel to and work in any state in Australia. But like I said, we need to grow up first, and understand we all live on this planet together. But the paranoiac nationalists will not like to hear that - - - they love their borders, restrictions, mono cultures; it's "Fortress Australia", "Fortress North Korea", "Fortress USA" etc etc etc for them. As I said, "when we all grow up".

If the lady was born in Parramatta, how can she be "Maltese?" My father was an immigrant and I was born in Australia therefore, why would I refer to his ancestry when advising my nationality?

I think the lady was offended by the busdriver and became flustered, however, tactless comments like hers will cause more division now that the media's got hold of it.

If she has dual citizenship she can be Maltese AND Australian.

And there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that!

Dear Antonios,

Thank You for explaining your point of view.
I'm beginning to understand where you're coming
from.

But you my friend need not worry. The only way that
a person can lose their Australian Citizenship
is if they're convicted for certain offences -
(mainly fraud) in the person's citizenship or
migration application, or if they were in prison
for 12 months or more, in any country for an
offence committed prior to their Citizenship
being approved.

Master, in his usual wisdom, has raised some very valid
points in his post.
The effects of nationalism can be both good and bad.
Nationalism gives people a sense of belonging and
pride, and a willingness to make sacrifices for their
country. But, of course,
it can also produce rivalry and tension
between nations. Desires for national glory and
military conquests that may lead to war.

Extreme nationalism may result in racial hatred and in the
persecution of minorities.

History has shown -
during the 1930s, two dictators - Adolf Hitler and
Benito Mussolini used nationalism in demanding extreme
loyalty from their people. They promoted 'integral
nationalism,' or the belief that a certain nationality
was superior to all others. This idea also placed strict
limits on who could claim that nationality. In support
of integral nationalism, the Nazis killed millions of Jews
and other people whom they considered inferior human
beings.

All we can do is remember that the measure of our society
over history is our fidelity to our principles. Of law
and justice. That's the price of liberty.
We must remind our government and our people to remain
faithful to those principles or otherwise, our society,
like so many in the past, will be swept up on the ash
heap of history.

Protagoras
"If the lady was born in Parramatta, how can she be "Maltese?" "
You are a smart woman. Do you remember the Israelis who found the black jews in ethiopian after 3000 years? I think they now found other jews in India! If they found their brothers after thousands of years do you think the other countries will not find their people who left their country before 500-600 years? Of cause they will find them! According to many European countries citizeship law, if a person prove that one from his parents come from Greece for example, he can claim and become Greek citizen, with UK is litle different of cause the colonies etc. For example the people from Hong Kong had British pasport but they did not have the right to go to UK!
If the Muslim lady was maried with a Maltise or her grand, grand fathers was from Malta she took the Maltese pasport for toubles free visit to European Union. My nefew born in Adelaide but he has Greek- European Passport too, My children have European Pasport too, cost 50-60 dollars and open the doors for many countries! I am sure you can have a European Pasport too. As you know the European Union is Number one Economic super power worldwide ,( I think 40 billion dollars more than USA.) Go to take your European pasport before change the European law! If ever we have problems here we can find an other door open or we will call the EUROPE, (our country-my country) for protection!
Protagoras as you know for many countries migrants have the right to vote/voted in two countries! For example we have in Victoria an Italian Background SENATOR IN ITALIAN SENATE, We Greeks try to do the same thing) I will try to become MP for GREECE and Australia! NO PROBLEMO IF PEOPLE VOTE ME!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Foxy
"I'm beginning to understand where you're coming
from."
I do not know Foxy, I do not know where I come from. I feel lost, I feel a stanger, I feel without roots and without base.
Realy Foxy tell me what does the "coffe" show?
Sure I am a strange person but I am not sure who I am, what I am doing and why? Not clear goals, not clear tactics to reach my goals!
Banjo said in an other thread for me "You are a stupid self opinionated fool." may be it help me to find my self!
Foxy while I can tell and I say many others friend I have difficulties to call you friend, I do not know but you seem different, always I put you arount the human rights comission and I think may be you are ungry if I call you friend!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

i dont feel austr-ALIAN...if anything im a queenslander...

im reminded that we are in the commonwealth of australia..[a british colony]...noting our constitution is an act of british parlement...noting the qld and aussie/constitution's...were/ was signed by the queen of briton..[who reportedly..has to sign all law..into l.a.w]..furyher we have as supreem head of state various govener generals...sworn to loyalty of some foreign crown

seems im not into being an aussie...[whatever that is]...im informed that these lands [unnamed by its natives]...but vairiously known as gondwana/great south lands/new holland/and van die-mens land..[of the peoples land]...is a commonwealth juristiction..to wit a brit colony...

teqniclly not even allowed to be called legally any country..[because we didnt have a referen-dumb,..despite the farce of the australia act..[another brithish act?]..

.anyhow call yourselves what you wish...its all pretty much delusional[because your all children of god..live with it...its not worth arguing over]...

ps re chapple corby[i think some idiot advised her to convert to muslim...possably..so it wouldnt contaminate her farcicle trial...recalling the treasons that put her there...its pretty much clear now why..[thanks ptb]

We have among us about 1500 evil little mongrels, both men and women who are not Australians in the true sense, because they have failed to accept that to be an Australian you have to accept the Constitution. Kevin Rudd is a true blue Aussie because he accepts that the Constitution is paramount as far as law is concerned and Almighty God is paramount over that.

I am amused that UOG calls herself a Queenslander. Been watching too much State of Origin and the fever has been passed on. I was in a bar at Townsville when the Broncos were playing the Cowboys, and the bar split right down the middle. Half were for the Cowboys and the other half for the Bronco’s and only one point decided the game. We were all Aussies, and UOG should realize that the Constitution is an Act of Union, uniting Australia as One Nation. Why do you think that red haired woman struck such a cord.

The Liberal Party are not true blue Aussies, because most of them are lawyers, and lawyers have been dumbed down by their university education, to believe in the Law not Almighty God, and that the Constitution is made of rubber, not set in stone. The one uniting force in Australia above all others should be our Constitution, and it should be treated with due respect.

It is a Christian document and was forged out of a consensus between al denominations, who still exist in about the same proportions as they did in 1899. For the story of how we became One Nation, you can read the record of the passage of the Constitution through the English Parliament. Its amazing what there is on the Net. Put Community Law Resource Group into Google, and see what comes up.

In the second and last referendum Queensland took part for the first time, and the results were 377,600 for and 141,500 against. This is roughly the same proportions of Australians who claim Christianity now as did in 1900. One thing we all have in common is the Constitution. Read it

As AnSymeonakis said "Most Australians have two citizenships"

I am one of them but

I am British by accident of birth and Australian because of a conscious choice and decision.

I live in Australia and vote in Australian elections. I travel on an Australian passport and pay Asutralian taxes. Conversely, my British Passport lapsed around 15 years ago, I have not visited UK since 1989, do not pay UK Taxes and I have not voted in an election since dearest Margaret was PM.

In the unlikely event of a war between Ausrtalia and UK, my alliegence and fealty would be to Australia and not to Britain.

Regarding people who claim to be of foreign nationality, let them leave and live where their alliegence and presumably, their heart is focused and leave Australia to those of us who are actually proud to be called "Australian", we will make a better place without the fence-sitters and wannabes.

As to her minority religious affects, she should consider herself lucky to be able to make that choice. In many Muslim majority countries, to adopt a religion against the Muslim majority is justification for persecution and even death.

So it seems to me, she needs to readically reconsider the choices she is actually making in light of the source of the rights she claims.

Which brings me back to dearest Margaret and the famous "no such thing as society" speech, which some enjoy corrupting, wherein Margaret actually said

"....People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

This woman seems to be pronouncing her "Entitlements" without considering her "Obligations" and those "Obligations" are to the wider Australian community and not just to the Maltese or Muslim sub-sets.

Well, that didn't get us anywhere did it?

A few people agree with my concern that a person born in Australia sees herself as something else. Foxy thinks that the woman might have been confused – how does that matter, Foxy, when you know that this sort of denial of being Australian goes on all the time – this is just one instance. Some people merely went all political and disagreed with me just on principle. AS brought up dual citizenship and told us how his nephew uses that ridiculous advantage to dodge military service in Greece.

Col Rouge dropped in and once again proved that if all Australians of choice were like him we would have no problems at all.

But for all of you apologists and anti-Leigh characters, just what do you think this tribal attitude and wanting to live in Australia but thinking of yourself as something else is doing to the country? Like it or not, and it might even be necessary if we can believe some of the economic pundits, we are going to have a lot more immigration in the future. I probably won’t be around to see the worst of it, but many of you will.

Dual citizenship and multiculturalism is gradually creating a land of disparate tribes, where tribes or groups will have nothing in common and nothing to do with each other. A country simply cannot hold together like that.

Finally, tell me where I stand. I am a third generation Australian, deriving from Scottish, English and German immigrants somewhere in the early 1800’s. I have no dual citizenship. Can I call myself a Scot, an Englishman or a German, depending what mood I’m in; even though I have never been to any of those countries and have no particular interest in them. If I want to holiday in any of those countries, including the UK, I have to line up with the other aliens.

Why should it be different for recently arrived immigrants

“I live in Australia and vote in Australian elections. I travel on an Australian passport and pay Asutralian taxes. Conversely, my British Passport lapsed around 15 years ago, I have not visited UK since 1989, do not pay UK Taxes and I have not voted in an election since dearest Margaret was PM.”

Is it how you feel or how the people around you feel? One may feel they are Australian in every sense of the word but if the other Australians do not view you the same does how you feel matter in the end?

Do the Muslims here not feel Australian no matter what generation they are? Or do they reject aspects of Australia that clash with their own belief systems and will do forever?

Leigh you sound like the “do not ask what your country can do for you…” But we all do aye, we all want to know what the balance is.

If I am a good citizen, do all the stuff like Col (pay taxes etc) then what is the advantage if forever, because of accent alone, I am called “Kiwi” here?

G'Day All,
An Australian is not an Australian when you are born in Australia of Irish mixed Aboriginal blood, Birthdate 26-01-1954 & 47 years of age before you are allowed to vote. That is when an Australian is not an Australian. Thanks for your time. Dave

"Dual citizenship and multiculturalism is gradually creating a land of disparate tribes, where tribes or groups will have nothing in common and nothing to do with each other. A country simply cannot hold together like that."

Leigh,

I think this trend would have happened regardless of whether or not we had multiculturalism and immigration. The native born population are just as prone to splitting into their own groups or tribes as anyone else. The point you raise goes to sustainability and of going past the natural carrying capacity of this country whether that be in terms of physical resources, native culture or anything else. In that sense, I agree with what you say. There is a limit to everything in the physical world. Unfortunately, the way society works, we do not put any remedies in place until something big and bad happens and we're shaken up by events.

Pied piper,
You must no longer be on the outer with DOCS if you now have 7 littles. How you can still find any time to post amazes me. I envy your energy. Work your charm on hubby for that extra bathroom.

You asked "Do the Muslims here not feel Australian no matter what generation they are? Or do they reject aspects of Australia that clash with their own belief systems and will do forever?"

I would not say all muslims, but a lot of Lebs are that way and a lot of other Migrants as well. Some show utter contempt for us, our laws and society and yet they take out citizenship and all the advantages of our society. Antonios, for example, does nothing but critisize Australia. Some alien cultural practices will never alter.

During the recent Israel/Lebanon conflict, Australia had to remove thousands of 'citizens' from Lebanon. Most of these were also Lebanon citizens but quickly demanded we help them. They lived permanently in Lebanon and had no assets in Aus. When they arrived here, Centrelink held seminars to inform them how they could assist them. Many had been receiving our welfare payments in Lebanon. I really think that these are not worthy of being called Australian.

Leigh,
I do not think you really expected more from the posts and yes, A lot of it is from our own doing, by allowing dual citizenshp and pushing multiculturalism.

However it is a bit encouraging to note that, so far, the current government has not pushed the MC agenda. MC appears dead and the sooner it is buried the better. It has taken a long time, but that is because of the inate stupidity of politicians

Col Rouge
"I am British by accident of birth and Australian because of a conscious choice and decision.I live in Australia and vote in Australian elections. I travel on an Australian passport and pay Asutralian taxes. Conversely, my British Passport lapsed around 15 years ago, I have not visited UK since 1989,"
Why Sir, UK is a nice country, I have many friend from UK who visit UK often, what happened with you and even to visit UK do not like?
But while you did not visit UK for long time I know that you publish very patriotic texts for UK on the forums! I remember I fought in this forum to pretect your right to support and express your love for UK. It is seemed to me that now you change mind!
Every one pays tax and every Australian citizen votes, you are not the only one.
Col Rouge can you tell us for your patriotic posts for UK and why one poster on this forum said to you that you do not belong in Australia?
Col Rouge Are American citizen?
I have two citizenships and I love both countries Greece and Australia and even I have got more love in my heart!

The Pied Piper
Are you “Kiwi”? You seem so good Australian!

Leigh
"Dual citizenship and multiculturalism is gradually creating a land of disparate tribes, where tribes or groups will have nothing in common and nothing to do with each other. A country simply cannot hold together like that"
But we are a multicultural country and we have double citizenship long time ego whithout problems! Some nationalists do not like it but they are a small minority! Simple we ignore them, Australian governments, Liberals or ALP ignore them too!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

dwg,
I agree with you, it took us along time to rectify that.

But am sure you will agree that there are many that are not Australian because their aleigence is firstly to another country, but they take what they can get from us.

“You must no longer be on the outer with DOCS if you now have 7 littles. How you can still find any time to post amazes me. I envy your energy."

8; forgot my own one. 6 are little. Yeah DoCS did ease up all of a sudden with two urgent placements, one already here and two on respite here (I hate respite), one restoration and another one until 18 years old.

Even I get confused. Helps having the computer in the kitchen and a kitchen in the middle of the house. My secret is video monitors around the house with the monitor next to me. And I have funny habits like (except vacuuming) all housework happens when little ones are in bed. I am obsessively organized and a clean freak.

“I would not say all muslims, but a lot of Lebs are that way and a lot of other Migrants as well. Some show utter contempt for us, our laws and society and yet they take out citizenship and all the advantages of our society.”

Me and you Banjo are going to have this conversation forever, probably along the lines of it taking two to tango. Are they displaced, stuck, bitter – can’t return? Are there any online we can ask?

“… Centrelink held seminars to inform them how they could assist them. Many had been receiving our welfare payments in Lebanon...”

Yeah people can get their pensions here aye... like from England and NZ also the other way round? I don’t see how things work, the money must be leaving NZ rapidly with the Kiwi pensioners living and spending here?

I didn’t know about the conflict and Lebanese receiving benefits. Why pay benefits if someone has residency in another country? My hubby has an Italian passport as well but one rule was that he would never claim a benefit in Italy for his own children.

I am taking my little Aussies for a walk… and I am teaching them all to say fish and chips like I do. Most of them leave with a southern Kiwi accent. Ha!

“then what is the advantage if forever, because of accent alone, I am called “Kiwi” here?”

Get used to it Pied Piper – the Poms did and no offence intended - it’s part of the Aussie vernacular even though nicknames may seem harsh and cruel:

She’s a Pom, he’s a Scottie (but don’t you get mad when Aussies say “Scotch?” He’s a Yankee, she’s a Froggie, he’s a Luigi, he’s a Paddy, that’s Nick the Greek (even though he’s not a “Nick.”)

OK perhaps a little insensitive but Aussies are trying hard to shut their mouths.

However, I’m a sandgroper! Then there’s banana benders, crow eaters, dust eaters or top enders, Westies (NSW western suburbs), Tasmaniacs (ahem!) sheep shaggers and so on. Victorians were once referred to as "gum-suckers."

The latest to do the rounds is “Piss drinker” – a Queenslander; referring to recent proposals to introduce recycled water for potable use in Queensland.

So what's wrong with "Kiwi" when New Zealanders living in Australia, refer to themselves as "Kiwi?" A word of warning, however, remember to never ever say: “towel heads” in the present climate for you’ll be breaching the Racial Discrimination Act.

Nationalism and patriotism are woefully overrated as virtues.

I don't believe it's acceptable for anyone in a civil society to wear a mask, but if a woman who identifies as a Maltese muslim supports and believes in democracy, free speech, peace and progress, then she is more of an ally to me than our home-grown White Australia throwbacks and their foreign equivalents.

What moral and intellectual poverty leads people to believe that the result of a genetic lottery should be the basis for unity, rather than the values and principles we actively choose?

"I don't believe it's acceptable for anyone in a civil society to wear a mask"

And therein could lie the problem Sancho.

To elaborate, my favourite shop assistant at Meyers is a delightful Muslim girl who wears the hijab. We've had many pleasant conversations - face to face.

Regarding the niqab, I am reminded that my mother was born profoundly deaf. Many thought she was a "foreigner" due to her speech impediment.

She learnt to lip read very well and interpret facial expressions. Some silly cows would grab her shoulder and yell into her ear rather than face her and clearly enunciate their words.

Now I wonder if she was still living, how she could interpret what women are saying under a niqab with only slits for the eyes. I shudder to think of how distressing a muffled voice behind a veil would be for a deaf person who doesn't sign read - particularly the elderly who are losing their hearing.

Forgive the hyperbole but the niqab gives a sinister appearance to those unaccustomed to this garb. Most Muslim women wear only the hijab, perfectly acceptable in my opinion, for you know who you're talking to and you can identify them at a later date.

Those who persist in wearing the niqab (for reasons unknown) need to be a little more senstive to the customs of the land in which they reside and reflect on the old adage:

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do!"

Hey I put the Community Law Resource Group in Google, and some of the worst porn I have seen in a long time came up. I did it again ant the second time it was alright. It is weird how sometimes the net goes pear shaped. Bit like Australia really. Australia went pear shaped when we chose to elect Bob Menzies, and started nearly sixty years of rule by lawyers. It was a ruddy good thing that the Labor Party chose a diplomat over a lawyer as their leader.

Lawyers are like fire. Fire is a great servant keeping you warm in winter and cooking when you cook with gas, but out of control it is a total menace like in Victoria. We have been playing with fire for nearly sixty years. We have elevated lawyers to the substitute position of Almighty God, and lawyers tell us we must worship the State instead of Almighty God. This is a reversion to the state of affairs pre Exodus, when the Egyptians held the Jews in slavery. When the State becomes a God, as it has in nine different jurisdictions in Australia the result is un-Australian.

Who are the most un-Australian people of all, the Judges and Magistrates. Who passed legislation to dowse the flames of slavery, the Paul Keating’s government. To have a Slave State there have to be slave masters, and in every Slave State there have been officers. These officers are the Judges and Magistrates appointed from the legal profession to keep you and me working for peanuts and treated like monkeys.

The Paul Keating’s government made it the equivalent of a hanging offence, 25 years imprisonment, for one human being to exercise powers of ownership over another. It is S 268:10 Criminal Code Act 1995 ( Cth) . It says ownership can include, exercise a power arising from a debt incurred or contract made by a person.

This effectively made nugatory the IR laws that fired up the Labor Party faithful, introduced by former Clayton Utz Lawyer, JH. Where were the Labor Lawyers when needed. The Constitution rules

Pied Piper,

You said "Me and you Banjo are going to have this conversation forever, probably along the lines of it taking two to tango. Are they displaced, stuck, bitter – can’t return? Are there any online we can ask?"

My inital thought on that was that the Lebs anti-social conduct has, unfortunately, given all muslims a tarnished reputation.

There was a poster here called 'Fellow Human' who was muslim and good to discuss things with,but have not seen him for quite a while. Dont know of any other muslim posters. Irfan Yussuf is muslim and writes articles sometimes for OLO and takes part in discussions. His profile is

http://www.blogger.com/profile/12032825228704836828

He runs a few blogs and I have found him good and informative. He most likely answer your questions. He once called me a 'secular bigot' which I thought funny and he calls muslim shieks 'Thick shakes' I think he is genuine and trys to improve relations of muslims and others in our community

Other than that you could google say muslim women orgs. Muslim village is a muslim blog but may not be your thing.

If you want to find opinions of those that embrace forced marriages or FGM, I don't know where you would find them.

Hope that helps.

Banjo,

You are probably right. I should know better than to expect anything different. It’s probably about time I moved on. We plebs cannot influence politicians. I laughed last night when Turnbull declared that the Government was acting like a dictatorship. They all do when they get there. If Turnbull ever gets into Government, he will act like a dictator too.

Antonios,

We are a multiracial country because we have a non-discriminatory immigration policy. You may call it multicultural if you wish. I have no problem with people of different races living here as long as they play by our rules. The thing I hate is the multiculturalism industry which has a lot of people – few with Anglo names – with their snouts firmly in the trough. This industry never admits fault, and as soon as anyone criticises it, it deals the ‘racist’ card. The industry will not admit to the fact that many immigrants of different cultures are not prepared to fit in. The industry thinks that it is up to the host culture to change. Rubbish! The sooner the multiculturalism industry is abandoned the better. Multiracialism is OK; but the deliberately enforced (without consultation) government policy and costly bureaucracy of multiculturalism has to go.

The U.S. has never had an official policy of multiculturalism, but it is the melting pot for the world. Immigrants can keep their old culture if they wish, but they are expected to be Americans.

I see that your nephew likes to be Greek, but when it suits him (to dodge military service), he relies on an Australian passport to protect himself from doing something that he doesn’t like about being Greek.

Sancho,

Islam does not allow democracy or free speech. Allah’s word is law. No Muslim can ever be an ‘ally’ to an infidel like you and me. And the whole point of this thread was that some among us do not want unity, even the sort you mention: “values and principles we actively choose”. Their values and principles are not the same as ours.

Leigh “if all Australians of choice were like him we would have no problems at all.”

Yes, in a perfect world, we would all be like me :-)

Unfortunately, the world is not perfect and we have to endure the rambles of the rabble.

ASymeonakis “very patriotic texts for UK on the forums…”

I am not particularly patriotic for Britain itself but I do support many of the values it represents, like work ethic, freedom of speech, democratic elections. I chose to come to Australia because there were aspects of UK which I disliked and disagreed with, like a class riddled social structure and too much nepotism.

“It is seemed to me that now you change mind!”

not at all.. my view of UK is consistent with what I have often written.

My references to paying taxes and voting etc. were to illustrate how I fully participate in Australian society versus how I do not participate in UK society.

“why one poster on this forum said to you that you do not belong in Australia”

I am not responsible for what other say. I would observe, however, that it said because that poster pursues a strategy of ad hominine attacks, instead of valid argument, largely because he is a retarded moron with the debating prowess of an earthworm.

I am not, nor have I ever been a US citizen. Although I did hold a green card and lived there for a number of years and have many friends and relatives there. I further respect the US general methods of government, prefering some of their institutions to UK and Australian practices (like electing judges and civic officials) although we can all find disagreement in the detail of some things… (like the stupid proportional voting arrangements for the Australian Senate).

Sancho “Nationalism and patriotism are woefully overrated as virtues.”

Yes but they are preferable to the alternative…..

“Internationalism” (where no one belongs or identifies with anywhere and we all live in fear of big government).

Except that Lebanon and good old secular Turkey, just for starters, have free, fair, democratic elections and vigorous debates about the role of religion in politics and society. Doesn't look like Islam's been too successful in quashing free speech there.

Lebanon is a particularly ironic case because the US refused to recognise its properly-elected Hezbollah government - quite a defence of democracy, that.

Giving any religion political primacy will eliminate free speech. Christianity has a record no better than Islam, but, luckily, the secular Enlightenment beat it down to the quaint bundle of rituals and empty reassurances from men in skirts that we enjoy today. Hopefully something similar will happen in the Islamic world, and if does, it will be because of the example set by Western democracies, not through violence and attempts to delegitimise all non-white non-Christians living in Western nations.

The worst part is not that you believe democracy and free speech are incompatible with Islam, but that you actively WANT it to be, or your whole argument is undermined and you're back to crude expressions of the boorish racism and parochial fear that motivates these threads.

“If you want to find opinions of those that embrace forced marriages or FGM, I don't know where you would find them.”

Oh Banjo, they don’t all embrace forced marriages or FGM. This is like when we westerners are all accused of being of low morals and godless dirty habits.

Do you know I did the stupidest thing... My daughter was young and in a Saudi hospital and I was staying with her. It was a private room and one morning I got up and no toilet paper so I skip right out the door in my rather short summer nightie to reception down the hall to ask for some. It wasn’t until I turned around holding a roll that I realized there was seating for about 7 along the wall and every seat filled with a Saudi Arabian male.

I did not help the women of the west that morning in Riyadh. I’m walking away trying to pull my nightie down at the back with knees bent, leaning back. Hopefully they thought I was a spastic or something.

Dear Leigh,

Thank You for this thread. It's been an
interesting one and I've read all of the
posts with great relish. You've certainly
had a wide variety of opinions expressed.

Professor Zubrzycki a few decades ago summed
up the question, "Do we really want a multi-culture?"
in an article for, 'The Age,' newspaper in Melbourne.

The Professor said, "I believe that our goals should be to create
a society in which people of non-Anglo Australian origin
are given the opportunity, as individuals or groups, to
choose to preserve and develop their culture so that
these can become living elements in the diverse culture
of the total society, while at the same time they enjoy
equal access to the rights and opportunities that society
provides, and accept responsibilities towards it."

That makes sense.

However, George Mikes, Boomerang (1968)
Andre Deutsch, London writes:

"Australians used to find these alien ghettoes worrying,
but they are slowly beginning to understand that
assimilation is not the problem they supposed it to be.
Assimilation...is an ugly word and ... a conceited
notion. 'Assimilation' simply means 'becoming similar.'
If you are to be
assimilated to me the idea is that I am the ideal ...
If you manage to become as I am, you are right; if you are
different, there must be something wrong with you...

To fit in, to become...part of a harmonious whole is one thing.
To lose the colour of your personality, to become just
another sheep in the flock, just a cog in the machine
(is another)..."

.

THE REVELATION OF HIDDEN IDENTITY

.

What does hidden identity reveal? That you have something to hide? Or is it simply a means of revealing your identity?

.

MASKS ON BUSES - OPTION OR OBLIGATION ?

.

It's amazing what swine flu can do for you. But when is a mask not a mask? What nationality is a virus born in Parramatta ? Which god created it ? Is it subjected to the Queen and a citizenized (civilised) Australian?

That's food for thought. Something immaterial for the mind to chew on.

.

Protagoras
"When in Rome, do as the Romans do!",
No Protagoras I will do what I thing is right to do BUT I have problem with the " mask" because It limits my abilities to comunicate with the persons under the mask, as more than 60% of our comunication is with body language. This problem is not ONLY our problem but for the persons with the "mask" too. I feel sory for the muslim Girls with the "mask" as they lose many opportunities of cause the mask. And they lose many opportunities not of cause their raligious but of cause their "mask". I know many Muslim girl without "mask" and they do excelent job and they have plenty opportunities.
The mask not only limit the comunicasion but create negative feelings against the persons with "mask" as we are not sure if under the mask is a girl or a criminal.
Personaly I am not a religious person and I do not care at all for any religious, I think the "mask" damage mainly the Muslim girls and soonest they stop to use it, the soonest they will enjoy the benefits from not wearing the mask.
About the theory that we (men) should not see women faces IT IS A SHAME FOR OUR CIVILIZATION. I FULY SUPPORT WOMEN RIGHTS AND I FEEL SHAME THAT SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE WOMEN'S INTEGRITY DEPEND ON ITS ABILITY TO COVER HER FACE!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

“SUPPORT WOMEN RIGHTS AND I FEEL SHAME THAT SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE WOMEN'S INTEGRITY DEPEND ON ITS ABILITY TO COVER HER FACE!”

Hello my friend, the last Muslim women I talked to had a different opinion – they felt by making all women look the same in public their rights were more equal among them. Young/old/pretty/ugly/fat/thin – hard to tell. My problem with it was the heat, the whole outfit made no sense to me in a hot country.

It is probably my fond memories of being in Saudi and associating the dress with that time but I am unable to bring myself to be bothered by a woman that chooses to cover her face.

I don’t like looking at people (especially females) with multiple piercings on their face or tattoos on their face. I understand my discomfort must remain unvoiced as it is their body and their choice and I hope the more strict Muslims understand why I don’t cover myself.

The culture of every society is unique,
containing combinations of norms and values that
are found nowhere else. For example Women in
traditional Arab societies must cover the entire
body and even the face; American women may expose
their faces but must keep their breasts and the
entire pelvic region concealed; women in many parts
of Africa may expose their breasts and buttocks but
not the genital region; women in Tierra del Fuego
may not expose their backs; and the Mundurcu of
Brazil proceed about their daily lives stark naked.
And as for Australian women - the range of cultural
variation is so immense ... it's a matter of personal
choice.

I think that part of the problem is that sometimes our
daily lives become so cluttered - we become shackled
with responsibility, bogged down with work, children,
family, the daily rituals and problems of our everyday
lives that we forget how to relate to other people.
Yet the wonder of this life is that people
(even the worst kind of people) can surprise you, when
you least expect it. As the old adage tells us -
"It's not who we meet along life's highway that matters,
it's how we treat them."

Foxy,
A couple of posts ago you quoted

Professor Zubrzycki a few decades ago summed
up the question, "Do we really want a multi-culture?"
in an article for, 'The Age,' newspaper in Melbourne.

The Professor said, "I believe that our goals should be to create
a society in which people of non-Anglo Australian origin
are given the opportunity, as individuals or groups, to
choose to preserve and develop their culture so that
these can become living elements in the diverse culture
of the total society, while at the same time they enjoy
equal access to the rights and opportunities that society
provides, and accept responsibilities towards it."

That makes sense. Unquote

I strongly disagree with the professor and you, as you agree with him.

There are many aspects of various cultures that we do not find acceptable here and I hope never will. The culinary habits of many in some cultures would not suit us, nor would the culture of honour killing, revenge killing, incest, peadophillia, bullfighting or cockfighting, for example.

There is not one single culture that I can think of that would be acceptable here without some modifacation. Our culture is unique.

Therefore it is up to the migrant to modify their culture enough to integrate into our society.

In relation to the burka, we barely tolerate it but I accept that and would far sooner our efforts were directed towards eliminating the suppression of women, forced marriages and FGM and a few other alien cultural practices.

One would imagine the citizenship swearing in process covers an immigrant and also his/her family and that individual should adopt the culture of Australia, passing on the new culture to their children who are raised and/or born in Australia.
To openly state you are Maltese, Iranian, Indian.... etc and the rules of society (not all legislative but accepted practice among the citizens) do not apply to you is a sign that you are not happy here and should head back to your preferred country.
That outspoken Muslim Cleric Mufti is a case in question that should be deported and never allowed to return. Anyone else who doesnt want to be Australian should follow.
The lady in the bus incident is not Australian and can be put on the next flight out of here. Give her place to someone willing to fit in.
Those Indian students protesting (or in effect squaring up against) their alleged persecutors should be sent home. The muslims and maori/islanders who were assaulting them should also be sent home. The white australian youths involved should be locked up and re-educated on community spirit.
No Australian should be living in fear. Time the government stepped up and took proactive steps to stamp out this kind of behaviour from all sides.

“There is not one single culture that I can think of that would be acceptable here without some modification. Our culture is unique.”

Banjo your personal culture seems to be unique. What is Australian culture? What religion is acceptable here? What practices based on heritage are allowed in your Australia?

Mutilating boys’ genitals is still acceptable here though aye. Rape, bullying, domestic violence, drugs, drunk driving, child abuse, are all still part of this culture same as other countries?

You didn’t have to legally use child car seats for kids under five when I got to NSW. I must say I was thrilled to see smoking areas at McDonalds and Hungry Jacks but you seem to have caught up there as well quite recently.

Not acceptable? Modification? Really Banjo remove your head from your butt. Aussie is a young country and I think far from sorting out what its identity is.

Dear Banjo,

How exactly do you define "Our Culture?"
and what do you see as its uniqueness?

Perhaps that will help me to understand your
exact take on things.

While this country is less diverse than the US,
its minority communities are a core part of
its national identity. The notion of an all-white
Australia is a fantasy and an anachronism.

You say that people of different cultural backgrounds
should adapt to "our," way of life. Banjo, that's
inevitably going to happen with time. It always has.

I fully agree with you when you point out that there are
certain aspects of other cultures that are being brought
into Australia that contravene our laws that people will
need to change - such as polygamy, female genital mutilation,
and so on. I don't think anyone will argue with you on
that score. However, we have to be careful in our way of
thinking not to divide this country into the two categories
of "Them and Us."

Jenny Tabakoff did an excellent article in 'The Age,'
newspaper sometime ago on the subject.

"Other people snore.
Other people have garlic breath.
Other people are overweight whereas we're cuddly.
Other people get drunk and put lamp shades on their heads;
we are the life and soul of the party.
Other people are rude when they don't stand up on buses;
we're dead tired so no one can expect us to. And so on..."

"Life can be defined as a long process of putting up with
Other People's irritating habits. Yet I'm constantly
amazed at how tolerant even the most intolerant people
are of their own foibles. The man who detests the way his
neighbour sucks air through his teeth will never be
upset by his own habit of cleaning his ear with the tip of
his little finger in public..."

Sounds hypocritical? Perhaps, Life is only tolerable
when we can look down on someone else.

Banjo
"There are many aspects of various cultures that we do not find acceptable here"
When you say "we " Who are you Banjo?" Do you mean you and your self or a group of people? If a group of people which one? the white supremassists? We, you and me, both are Australian citizens, we have exactly the same rights, your words have the same weight with mine.
Do not you know that according to the study 85% of australians agree with multicultural australia?
You and people like you, are a small minority in Australia, who do not understand that white australia is dead, that there is no way to bring back the white Australia, that you and people like you, have isolated from the main Australian body.
You Banjo belong in the past, your ideas have no future in Australia, you my good friend will have bigger and bigger and bigger problems with the New Australia. You are LUCKY because you are old enouph and you will not have the opportunity to see the other, the new australia in its maturity, the new australia which is born from the ashes of the dead white Australia and is founded on the migrants, europeans, asians or africans, cristians, muslims or atheists.
EVIVA TO MIGRANTS, CURSE TO RACISTS!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Sancho

The Amnesty International in its Annual Report for 2009 reaffirmed that Turkey still holds a poor record on human rights.

Turkey has also systematically targeted the Greek Orthodox Christian community through a series of policies, resulting in killings.

Civil life is severely restricted by the restrictions of freedom of peaceful assembly too.

“Another significant matter is the lack of respect towards refugees and asylum- seekers who are increasingly forced to leave the country.

"The report asserts that on occasions, members of such groups were said to have been beaten and threatened with rape unless they deported the country. There have even been claims that some died in the process.”

Wasn’t it the “democratically elected” Hezbollah who invented the suicide bomber? During the early eighties, the unprecedented actions of their suicide bombers in Lebanon, blew up some 60 French peacekeeping personnel and a couple of hundred US and UK military personnel.

An unrelated report states also that at the United Nations, “Muslim nations are working to make "Islamophobia" a prosecutable or actionable offence, even in countries with a strong free speech tradition.

"Their first victory came in March 2008 when the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), the U.N.'s most powerful voting bloc, sponsored a resolution at the U.N. Human Rights Council urging a global ban on the public defamation of religion, with a focus on Islam. The measure passed easily. Indeed, the OIC's 57 members usually push through their agenda with ease.”

And proof of the existence of any supernatural deity by the appellant, is not a requirement in the matter of prosecutions.

It seems that published, innocuous criticism of any religion is now officially regarded as a personal attack on the devotees.

Atheists, agnostics or the religious with a different belief, hold your tongues or you will incur a writ. Infidels – en garde!

Foxy and Pied Piper,
Girls, I suggest that you have not given much thought to culture. Do you really think that our Australian culture is so shallow that it can be defined in 350 words. that is an insult and as unreasonable as me asking either of you to define the culture of your birthplace.

If you cannot come up with just one culture that is identical to ours then my contention the our culture is unique is correct. Probably the NZ culture is the closest to ours, but there are differences. PP mentioned one thing she found different, on arrival, and am sure there are many more. Both of you have traveled extensively so you would be well aware of different cultures.

So our culture is unique but I have never said perfect. There are many aspects of our culture that I am not happy about either, but it is our culture and not someone elses. It will also continue to change and evolve. Like being home for Sunday dinner (lunch) was mandatory years ago but does not apply today.

Foxy, where ever did you get the notion that I want an all white society?

PP You said "Not acceptable"? "modifacation"? Yes there are many cultural practices/habits not acceptable here and I gave but a few examples. If you want more try, clearing your nose on the footpath or picking your nose in public. These actions were common when I was last in Hong kong. In some cultures it apparently is common for mothers and/or older siblings to mastabate babies to calm them down. Not done here, least not in public! Eating of dog meat or dolphin is not acceptable here.

So every migrant that comes here has to modify his culture to be part of our society. Some not so much, but others a great deal.

We only have a problem with those who cannot or will not change to suit our society.

I can also argue that multiculturalism is a misnomer and that we are multi-racial but not multicultural. Which other culture is wholly acceptable?

Banjo, err nuffink.

Your country, your rules... same as I believed in Saudi. But I guess I was just visiting there. I just have not experienced the Muslims thought of with such disdain before.

Sorry Foxy - I need to bow out and let you deal with Banjo. I've been sick a few days now (annoyed me cause I had my flu shots months ago) and just got a call from a caseworker saying that some kids that arrived last week had a carer with swine flu and that the carer knew it a few days before the kids left.

I'm rather angry about it. Is tamiflu free? Ten people live here, and visitors, kids on access, kids on repsite weekends.

You wait, I'm gonna be moaning and complaining all over the place.[smile]

Antonios,
In my post to Foxy, I made mention of a number of alien cultural practices that I contend that WE (being our society) do not find acceptable.

Now Antonios, tell me which of those do YOU think are acceptable now or should be in your Australian utophia.

In another thread, I said you were a stupid, self opinionated fool. Nothing has changed.

Dear Banjo,

You haven't answered my question - as to how
you define "Australian Culture." Or in what
way is Australia unique? I'm not trying to be
contentious here - I'm merely curious.
And, because you didn't answer the question - I
made the assumption that you were refering to
a "White Australia." Afterall that's what the trend
in the past used to be ...

However, It seems that we're not that far apart
in our thinking. I agree with you that in order
for society to work it needs to have shared values.
By the way, I was born in Australia, grew up here,
was educated here, married here, and am very proud
to call myself Australian - I thought
you knew that. My ancestry is Lithuanian.

Every group that has come to Australia has faced a
lot of intolerance but over time they would
integrate in Australia as effectively as any other
ethnic group. And as I've said in my other posts,
the minority communities are a core part of Australia's
national identity.

So what are we arguing about exactly?

It's quite simple, Foxy - Australian culture is the sum of all the beliefs, behaviours, knowledge, values, attitudes in which Banjo engages. Anything else is unAustralian.

Foxy,
My apologies, I thought you were born overseas. Perhaps it was from you referring to your parents occasionally. Not that it makes any difference to me.

I answered your question, and to PP, by saying it is not reasonable to ask anyone to define their culture in 350 words. I certainly am not smart enough to do a credible job of that. Culture covers such a wide area.

When I was growing up I did not see much intolerance to 'New Australians' There was the occasional reference to 'Wogs' and such things as 'I wish they would learn English' but no violence or anything like that. I can just remember Aussie owned milk bars/cafes and when the Greeks took them over it made a hell of a difference to upping the standard. This was in a fairly large inland city/town. The kids all went to school together and that was that. Later many earned our respect as we saw them cleaning their cafes when we were walking home late at night, so they knew how to work. Of course we learnt about the Snowy scheme and migrant involvement.

It was only when multiculturalism was imposed on us that there became a seperate them and us. MC seperated people into groups.

I see MC as a philosophy that puts original culture ahead of national loyalty. It openly fosters seperate development,as a federation of ethnic cultures, not as one community. The slogan 'Unity in Diversity' has to be the biggest lie ever and excluded non ethnics.
Take the clashes of Serbs and Croats and the anti-social Lebs for example.

I simply disagreed with what that professor said as I believe we must strive for integration. I wish you were right about them adapting to our society eventually, but can you see the Croats and Serbs coming together or the Lebs. What about other ingrained cultural practices.

Despite what others may think, I do not care about race or ethnicity but am concerned that we keep a peaceful society. Don't want to be like France or others where violence is normal.

'Life is only tolerable
when we can look down on someone else.

Oh too true Foxy!

That's why I always feel unappreciated on OLO. The enjoyment so many people have had looking down on me just never gets recognised. But I'm still happy to serve!

Dear CJ,

Thanks for your comments.

Always appreciate your input.

Dear Houellebecq,

You know I just love your wicked sense of humour...

Dear Banjo,

I see things a bit differently to you in certain
respects. The best way that I can explain it
is to quote what Liz Thompson in her book,
"From Somewhere Else," says in the Introduction:

" The multicultural nature of
Australian society means that there is no
single national identity but a gathering of many
cultures, and this is one of the most unique and
rewarding aspects of living in Australia. The
nature of being Australian is to be part of this
diversity. The wide and varied gathering of 'identities'
is in keeping with the sense of potential and openness
so many people enjoyed on coming here. I feel privileged
not only to have been able to make a home here but
also to have found my own sense of belonging."

I can identify strongly with these sentiments.

The violence you speak of - and the problems
between various racial groups,
like the Croats and Serbs, I can't quite fathom.
Except that historically they've been enemies and
at war with each other. The expressed hostility towards
"Lebs," recently, I also don't understand. It belies
the history of Australia, where people of Lebanese
ancestry have lived for more than a century.

Anyway, Thank You for taking the time to respond to my
earlier questions.

Tomorrow morning we're leaving for a couple of days
touring the wine-regions of Victoria so I'll be
gone until next week.

All The Best.

Banjo
The base of our civilization, the base of west civilization is the democracy, the equality betweem the citizens, THE EQUALITY BETWEEN THE VOTERS!
Poor or rich, educated or not educated, black, yellow or white, religious or non religious, cristians or Muslims, women or men, young or old people, ALL WE ARE EQUAL! This is the CORE value of Australian civilization.
For you Banjo Libanese Muslims are not equal with other Australians, You Banjo do not respect the core values of our civilization, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO SPEAK FOR Australian values because you do not respect them, because you violate them, your political philosophy is close to Nazi or Phasists! You like it or not, use your brain, read what you wrote for Australian Libanese AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND I HAVE RIGHT WHEN I SAID THAT YOU ARE CLOSER TO NAZI THAN TO AUSTRALIAN VALUES!
Sory SIR but some one had to tell you, who realy you are!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Antonios,
Are the questions I posed too difficult for you?

In case you cannot find them, the cultural practices I said WE find unacceptable are:- Some culinary habits, honour killings, revenge killings, incest, peadophillia, bullfighting, cockfighting, forced marriages, FGM, suppression of women and a few other alien cultural practices. I can define some of the culinary habits if you want and list others if you want more to choose from.

Now you claim I am racist and like a Nazi because I say WE do not accept these cultural habits.

Now I ask you again. Which of the alien cultural practices do you think our society accepts, and do you think we should accept migrants that embrace these cultural habits?

Banjo
Every one who isolates, rejects, victimizes, attacks persons of cause their race, their religious, their colour etc has nothing to do with western values, with Australian values. People who use cheap, dirty ways have nothing to do with Australian values we do not close our eyes, we do not cover them, we do not use the culture, race or religious differences as an excuse.
Do you know how much I suffered all my years in Australia from persons who have had no idea what is western civilization, what is democracy, what is human rights?
Nazi used the race as an excuse to ATTACK people from other races to destroy them.
"Which of the alien cultural practices do you think our society accepts"
Our society is not homogenous, what you think, what I think is only our personal opinions. I am against terrorists, against criminals, against corrupted people, I do not care very much for other things, I am atheist and I do not care at all for religious matters.
I support the democracy, human rights and I try to promote the understanding and cooperation between australians from different civilazations, from different religious or race background!, I try to build bridges with people of different ideas and opinions, some times without success.
I do not say that it happenes because the other are bad and I am good, I understand that my victimization and humiliation for long time leaved its marks on me! When racists and bullies are covered, when no one is interested for migrants rights, when no one is ready to protect the victims of race discrimination then we create a long term problem!
If you want to have an influence on people from other religious or race background you must respect, understand, support them. Only with a friendly way you can influence on them.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Banjo: << Which of the alien cultural practices do you think our society accepts, and do you think we should accept migrants that embrace these cultural habits? >>

With the exception of your unspecified "culinary habits" and the vague "suppression of women", all of those practices are illegal in Australia and no individuals should be allowed to engage in them here. I understand that migrants are required to undertake to abide by Australian laws, regardless of their cultural backgrounds.

Nothing wrong with that, but when you propose banning immigration from entire religious, cultural and/or ethnic blocs because some individuals with those backgrounds don't honour their undertaking to abide by Australian law, you cross into the area of racism.

Like many other Australian racists, you seem like a decent bloke in many ways, but that doesn't absolve you of the inherent bigotry of the hate that you actively promote. I suspect that you'll never acknowledge this, but as long as you keep posting your racist and/or xenophobic rubbish I'll keep on pointing it out.

While I'm at it, Antonios may not express himself very well in English, but I think he's a much better Australian than many of those who were born here.

Antonio,
I generally agree with what you say.
Where I think we will disagree is the preferential treatment given to people because of their religion.
Example. A school uniform is a school uniform wearing a burqa is against the uniform rules and should be disallowed.
Example. Gifts to religious charities are tax exempt gift to other charities are not.
Example. Wearing a turban instead of a cycle helmet is not on.
Example. Private religious schools get more funding per head than do state schools.
I am unfamiliar with the case in question but an ordinary burqa seems OK the face is exposed. A hijab is another matter because the face is hidden.
The fact that she wishes to be Maltese is her choice.

To the comment made by others earlier. I am a sixth generation Australian a i will be blowed if i am going to accept a foreign queen.
If you which to respect the Queen go back to Britain where YOU belong.
and another thing on this matter, how come there are 200,000 pommies that have never been to Australia that are on our electoral role. How can we ever become a republic?

Murray Suters
Sydney
Australia

She is your Queen too Murray.

How do the British get on the roll?

But will it matter if a Republic is wanted by everyone else?

What are the arguements against a Republic?

Protagoras [28/7, 1:38], what's that got to do with the price of fish?

Australia puts refugees in concentration camps. The US burns the disabled to death in the electric chair. Do those cruelties mean they're not democracies?

The assertion was that Islamic countries cannot be either democratic or allowing of free speech. That's easily disproved with a couple of obvious examples.

The death toll from Lebanese suicide bombers is as relevant as the toll from American Predator drones, and neither negates the fact that the employer of such war tools was elected freely and democratically.

The facts stand: Islamic countries can be democratic and allow free speech.

The Pied Piper, my good friend slow down!
Murray Suters says some truths and it is better to see what he says.
Murray Suters I am secularist and I agree with you about the tax exemptions for religious charities, about the school uniforms this problem is more hot and I prefer to avoid religious and race tensions, I do not like burga, I wrote many times about it but from the other site I prefer to convince the people with the burga that it is to their benefit to stop using it. It is against australia's interests the division of our society, it is very bad to isolate or victimize Muslim teenage girls for the burka. It is better to give them our hands, to smile them than to show any kind of hate or disaproval.
It is not the girls who want the burka it is the parents who press the girls for the burka. let's try to improve our relations with the next generation of muslims and show to them understanding. We want them close to us, let's create a brigde with them. I hope you understand me. I agree with you about the turban -helmet we must protect them as every one else.
Generaly I AM AGAINST ANY FUNDING TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS! If the rich or religious people want special schools for their children then to pay for these schools, in other case to sent their children to public schools as I did to my children. I do not understand why my taxes go for the private schools and not for the public schools, I do not understand why the low income people to support the schools for the children from rich families.
I agree with you that it is time to finish with the monarchy, I feel shame on our age the head of the state to be foreigner, to be a monarch and not an elected from australians President.
About the poms slowly, slowly we put an order to this problem, do not worry about it, many things have started to change!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

CJ Morgan
Sir Once I was hard to you! my deep apologies! I am sorry for my behave to you, the truth is that I did not like your behave, your writing style! I thought you are a bully!
Now you improve in high degree your writing style, in realy you did a huge step forward. SORRY SIR!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

G'Day to All & to All G'Day,
Well read a lot of comments here about culture but nothing mentioned of the oldest continuous culture in the world & the original inhabitants of this land. That culture had no word equivalent to the word NO until the British came. It was a caring sharing culture with the base Caring for the Earth. The Irish then came first mainly as convicts & mixed with these that were already here & built a "Pioneer Culture" that blended many of the beliefs of those already here with those of thier own & this became a mixed culture. I will accept all as long as they come with the intent to become as one no dual citizenship you are either Aussie or not & if NOT then go home. Democracy I would advise all to read the stucture of Democracy before keeping the claim that we live in one.Thanks Dave

Antonios,
I still think you are a stupid, self opinionated fool, but now also a fraud and charlatan. You will not answer the questions put to you and yet you claim to 'support' all manner of things. I say you give verbal support to things that you think may be popular at that time.

Further, I believe you hide behind "I am a poor migrant and my English is poor, crap" You have been here 16 years and some of your posts are excellently written and others incredibly bad.

You say you support womens rights and childrens rights. Yet you openly invite all and sundry to come here irrespective of any cultural practices they may embrace that could be detrimental to women and children. You claim the migrants have rights.

You claimed to support aboriginals, and when a poster, who said he was aboriginal, put forward something you disagreed with you reply with disparaging remarks about him and his mother.

When I critisise some migrants for not abiding by our laws and social standards, you call me racist and nazi. Critisism is not racism.

So does multiculturalism and migrants rights to pursue their culture overide our laws relating to FGM and forced marriages. You once said to give them time. Well is 3 generations enough? Croats and Serbs still fight each other and some that were subject to FGM hre, as girls, are now having FGM done to their daughters. Do you approve?

We should not continue to 'turn a blind eye' to some cultural practices and give some groups 'cultural privilege'. If they break our laws they should be punished. Not to do so is not fair to all the other migrants that do adjust to our society, however difficult that may be.

If our experiance shows that some alien cultural practices continue through generations, then we should not import any more of that group. This should be done to maintain society cohesiveness.

Antonios my friend if I slowed down any further I’d need resuscitating. I didn't dispute anything Murray said, I barely understand what a Republic is.

Good evening Banjo baby. To go back to a previous post of yours about nose picking being okay in China or somewhere and some other stuff mentioned. And then someone I think argued law vs etiquette or that could have been my fever induced imagination taking over…

Just ease up turbo. You do come across (not as racist) kind of anti-everyone who doesn’t fit your idea of the perfect Australian.
Now I know CJ already called you on this and I also agree one cannot sum up a nations identity in 350 words.

But could you give an example of what a successful immigrant who has moved to Australia would be like? Could they still choose to practice any religion or wear their previous nations costume in public? Would they be allowed to still speak their original language in their home or support the same sports team their grandparents did?

Banjo I’d also suggest that when you were growing up you just weren’t in the right spots at the right times to see any racial conflict.
All credit to your parents.

I think when it does come to racial conflict it is a given that the home team always wins and as usual the winner writes history.

Nice to see you about Dave and I guess in your case the “home team” didn’t do so well.

.

THE MASKS HAVE FALLEN !

.

The French president, Nicholas Sarkozy (alias Napoleon Bonaparte) was reported recently as saying that burqas and niqabs have nothing to do with the Muslim religion and were not welcome in France.

He ordered a study by the French equivalent of the CIA on the importance of the phenomenon and they came up with some interesting facts. It was found that a total of 357 burqas and niqabs are worn in France.

That is quite negligible when you consider that the Muslim religion is the second largest religion in France after Catholicism. There are about 2 million Muslims in France (roughly 3% of the population).

As the population of France is three times that of Australia (66 million against 22 million), if the same proportion of burqas and niqabs were to be found in Australia, that would mean a total of 120, which, it seems to me, would probably be a gross over-estimation.

The French study revealed that the large majority of those wearing the "integral veil" were women under the age of thirty. 26% are of French origin converted to Islam. Most of them are militants of salafism which has its roots in the Sunnite branch of Islam. In many cases the young women wear the veil as a provocation to their families or society in general.

A parliamentary mission has been appointed to investigate the matter and provide a report by the end of January 2010 in order to determine if a law should be passed to ban wearing the "integral veil" in France.

However, I would be very surprised the French would pass a law that would only concern a few hundred people.

Still, you never know, Napoleon might get on his high horse and insist on it.

.

Pied Piper,
Sorry to hear you are off. But Hey, mums dont get crook, they are always there. Its only us kids that catch colds. Just have to let it run its course so hang in there and you'l get back to old self. Drains you though don't it?

Murray has not posted again as yet, but i don't think he is right about Poms in England getting a vote here. There are some poms here that are not citizens that get a vote, if they came before xxxx date. I think that is what Murray meant but do not know the number.

Friends of mind just back from NZ trip in camper van. Loved it and he did ask why so many Kiwis immigrated and the answer apparently is for work. Nice place but not enough work there. Can youtell me why?

You asked "But could you give an example of what a successful immigrant who has moved to Australia would be like? Could they still choose to practice any religion or wear their previous nations costume in public? Would they be allowed to still speak their original language in their home or support the same sports team their grandparents did?"

Yes to all and more. Most immigrants adjust to our society and learn what is acceptable social conduct and so on. But that does not excuse the few that hold us in contempt in many ways.

We do 'turn a blind eye' to some actions that i consider offensive, such as forced marriage and FGM. This is 'cultural privilege' and yet there are raids and prosecutions on those groups that hold cockfights. Our priorities are very skewed to my mind. There are many other migrants that have a hard time adjusting, but they have and get my admiration.

There only a few groups I would deny entry to, all on our experience of them not integrating, some over generations but our first obligation is to the rest of our citizens, new and old.

G'Day All. How are you all.
If this country is going to go forth in this world then first we must have a recognition of the culture that formed this country. We as a nation have most things that other people want. If the immigrants are to mix & blend into this country then they have to have a defined culture that they are to blend to.
We have British "Law" that override the "Lore" that was in place for thousands of years & worked to keep this our "Mother" healthy & strong but in the last 200 years this has all changed the spot light has been taken from this culture & denigration has prevailed until the world is near convinced that this culture is irrelevant today.
We must build our culture around the the culture that was here first then we can accept those that come today & they will know what is expected of them, at the moment we keep accommadating the migrant & we make "Laws" to minorities to please but a few so we will keep the prejudices going.
If you always do what you always did you will always get what you always got think about it. Thanks Again Dave.

Banjo
Many people tell you racist, direct or indirect. I do not think you will change if I will tell you too. What I said to you is that you are not very familiar with australian values, you do not care very much for democracy and human rights, you do not understand very much from human or social sensitivity, If I did not know you and read your posts then probably I will think that the posts come from a white suprimasist or that you are close to NAZI (nationalist) than to western democratic values. Personaly I do not have a problem with you, you are not against my race, but our defferences are about muslims or asians but mainly about Libanese Muslims. I am not a religious person and I have differences with Cristian or even more with Muslim religious.
While I desagree with Muslim religious I respect the rights of Muslim people and I try to support them, to protect them from unfair attacks, discrimination or victiomization.
In this forum you have turned your arrows often against Muslims.
I do not care at all how you call me, but sure I do not feel very proud that between us there is person, YOU, with so bad ideas for a big part of australians.
My dream is to see you one day to support Libanese Muslims in Sydney!
You are a smart man and may be one day my dream become reality!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

G'Day Again,
Just following on from the last post. We hear all this & that about the rights of migrants & how we here in Aussie treat them but reverse the role.
How does the migrant treat those that were here the Indigenous & the Aboriginal?
Do they (the Migrant) stand on a united front with these (the Indigenous & Aboriginal) to preserve our Lore & Culture?
Does the migrant stand only for the right to preserve His/Her own culture? If this is so then don't move here in the first place stay where His/Her culture already is!
The way the migrant carries on (%'age wise) is that they are an "Invader" & we here are the "Vanquished" & we "Must" accept their culture & pass "Laws" to give them the right to do it.
If I enter your home do I abide by the rules of the house or do I enter then stand there & say now you do this/that in this/that way? No you would tell me to go take a flying jump.
Then the same applies to this country.
Yeah, The Pied Piper the "Home Team" isn't doing real well here.
Thanks again. Dave.

Banjo:”Friends of mind just back from NZ trip in camper van. Loved it and he did ask why so many Kiwis immigrated and the answer apparently is for work. Nice place but not enough work there. Can you tell me why?”

No… gawd. But I can tell you why I am here. Husband works on a machine called the AS400 (nope I have no idea what it does)…something about JD Edwards as well. Now according to him the work was indeed running out in NZ in his particular field.

IBM gave him redundancy in Wellington and he found a job in Christchurch (we moved from North to South Island). After a couple of years the company he was working for in Christchurch started “winding down” so he started looking and found a job in Sydney.

I was stoked… I’d been wanting to move here since I was 14 and did the caravan thing with my parents around Oz. Actually I wanted to move to Darwin which I remembered as pretty cool back then.

Your friends survived NZ in winter in a campervan, crazy buggers. Did they go for the snow? I hate snow, unlike the Eskimos I have only one word for it which the editor here wont let me write.

“Yes to all and more. Most immigrants adjust to our society and learn what acceptable social conduct is and so on. But that does not excuse the few that hold us in contempt in many ways.”

Oh okay, I think I finally understood your point.

“... Drains you though don't it?”

I want to lie on the couch and bleat and complain about being sick while people bring me juice and blankets. And I want to know why a 5 year old is running around screaming out “you’re a big disgrace we will ROCK YOU!” over and bloody over.

Being able to focus on your message Banjo may have just saved a small life.

Dave… err nah I migrant would understand little of the aboriginal story. In NZ we just heard all the time how badly you get treated.

Banjo
Do not lie! I said that you are close to Nazi than to AUSTRALIAN values, I did not tell you are a NAZI, if I tell cristians are closer to Muslims than to atheists I do not say that Cristians are Muslims. Banjo you are very hard with migrants, for example you wrote that :
"The stark reality is that not all cultures are capable of adapting to the concept of living with others."
What cultures are not capable of adapting? Realy do you believe that some coltures are so bad? Do you want to block them and bring ...WHITES?
"Unity in diversity' has to be one of the biggest lies ever"
What do you think for people from other religious , civilizations or races? Do you want to expell them?
"Migrants come here as our guests and their rights are what we bestow on them"
Come on Banjo migrants have rights, they are protected from the international law, why do you deny their human rights, their rights according to international law?
"We discriminate now in relation to various aspects of criteria and we are under no obligation to accept anyone who desires to come here"
Banjo you are shamaless, you publicly accept that we discriminate and you think we have the right to discriminate(under no obligation )
"The Lebs reputation is due entirely to their anti-social behaviour"
Do you realy believe that all Libanese are bad as all white australians are good? There are not good Libanese? Do you think that could be good idea if we sent them to Ausvits, Dachaou or Mathousen in the first opportunity?
"I would reopen all detention centres and get army to guard" (for elegal migrants- refugees)
Come on Banjo do not be so hard with humans, give them a chance, WHERE IS YOUR human sensitivity and understanding?
You are angry with me when I say you are closer to Nazi than to western democrasies.
You are against australian values, australian civilization.
We (australians) understand and accept and respect and support and hurt for the human suffering, YOU NOT!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

G'Day All,
Lets stop all the in fighting & name calling that is what we are supposed to be answering. The Pied Piper has a pretty good idea what makes me tick & where I am coming from.
Why? The Pied Piper had the decency to contact me on my direct e-mail & find out.
We have to start to recognize the good in people simple as it is. My Father told me,"The Bad will hit you on the point of the chin set your self a task & look for the Good. Also never get involved in gossip & left me to work out the answer.
Well I can tell you the answer that I arrived at & that is; Gossip is the first form of denial of natural justice.
Thanks Dave
The thing is people talk of the this/that & whatever & keep seeking answers because we (me included) keep asking Why.
We speak of Democracy well if we want to know of Democracy then consult the texts of the Ancient Greek you won't only get that answer you will find the answer to where the "Early Horizons of Natural Justice in the Western World" stems from & the Laws that became Divine right based on a religion is what the Ancient Greek taught & left a legacy to the common person of Divine right.
Now if we recognize Those rules,then we will see that those rules bind very closely to the "LORES" of the common person. Then one should see "Backfella,Whitefella,Yellowfella,Redfella,Anyfella" doesn't really make much difference as long as we talk "LORE" they are near the same.
So now blend this together with the Oldest continuous culture (lore & still practiced & taught today) surely we should be able to biuld on that as a foundation.
What's the saying go backward to go forward?
Thanks. Dave.

G'Day All,
Sorry about the "Thanks. Dave." in the middle of last post it is not supposed to be there. Dave

What is the definition of an Australian. An australian could be anybody as long as they follow a few simple rules.
Do not walk around like you are different than everybody else.
Do not talk about religion, its private.
Keep your beer drinking to a maximun level.
Always remember football is a form of religion, so be prepared to change teams when necessary.
If you follow this you will fit in to any class of population.

Antonios,
You said 'What I said to you is that you are not very familiar with australian values, you do not care very much for democracy and human rights, you do not understand very much from human or social sensitivity,'

I believe I am very familiar with Australian values and democracy and hunan rights. e.g. Few Aussies would agree with FGM and forced marriages.

You say 'My dream is to see you one day to support Libanese Muslims in Sydney!'
When lebanese muslims respect our laws and social standards and change their anti-social ways, I will give them respect.

Good to see that you are trawling my older posts. Nothing wrong with that, you may even learn a thing or two.

When you answer the questions i put to you I will answer all yours. fair enough? I'll get it going by responding to your first Question.

I said "The stark reality is that not all cultures are capable of adapting to the concept of living with others."
Your response "What cultures are not capable of adapting? Realy do you believe that some coltures are so bad? Do you want to block them and bring ...WHITES?"
My response. Do you think the Croats and Serbs adapt to each other. Are the Lebs capable of getting along with ANYONE. None of these have adapted very well, over 3 generations. Yes i want to block anymore coming of those that cannot adapt, and bring anyone else of any colour.

Your turn to answer my questions!

David I was really pleased to correspond with you, it actually gave me additional knowledge and a direction to go in that I am more than happy with and I thank you for your thoughts and your story.

Banjo baby I really really have met some nice Lebs, spent 6 months just hanging out by a pool with three of them while the poor buggers were forced to endure my very demanding young children. They spoilt them rotten. They all spoke French, English and Arabic. They were all Christian – I remember some Scottish nurses taking a real shine to them. There was a wide streak of chauvinism in each but they were still in their twenties. Being young (cause I was old then at about 31) they were very respectful towards me as a mum.

And I so wish you’d met them. Their names were Peter, Phillip and Richard. But then I also met some lovely Muslims who took a lot of time to explain stuff to me (me and my constant questions). I woke up to the call to prayer each morning and avoided mutawa at night on the streets along with the other Muslims. Kids while shopping would wrap their hands around my legs and leave a store with me… all women looked the same so similar footwear lead to this mistaken identity.

It is hard to explain how cool it is to be anonymous in public wearing all that black material, I felt really naked without it when I returned to NZ; horribly exposed and judged. Similar feeling as if you were forced to paste a photo along with your posts I guess.

As far as immigrants go, either obey laws or leave. But Banjo it is up to this country to enforce its laws and have good laws. Protect its children first and foremost; this country does not do this.

Then listen to Whistler, Dave, Peter and HuffnPuff. I know on here there is talk about some silent audience. Any evidence ever?

Knuckles Jacksonn, ya goose.

Pied Piper,
You have mentioned your experiences in the ME before and i do not doubt you, but that is not the experiences we have had in Aus.

I have met and known non-muslim lebanese as well and they seem OK. They have a good reputation. There are many muslims of other nationalities here as well and we never hear about them, Malays and Indonesians for example. Other muslims do not appear to be a problem.

The simple fact is that Lebanese muslims have a bad reputation here brought about by their own doing. They are known for their arrogance and rudeness, particularly to women and girls. Over the years there has been hundreds of complaints from shop assistants, nurses, female police and ambos, receptionists and teachers about the conduct of male Lebs. Gangs of Lebs have bashed many anglos or 'Skips' as they call them. It seems that they make obviously sexual approaches to gitls and when rejected they turn nasty with abusive language. They seem to believe that any female not wearing muslim garb is a whore and slut. This was the situation at Cronulla beach and nothing was done, despite many complaints,(cultural privilege) which culmanated when two young lifesavers interviened when a group of Lebs were harrassing a group of girls. The lifesavers were bashed. That is when the locals decided to 'retake' their beach.

That night and the next many Lebs proceeded to Cronulla and nearby suburbs en masse and bashed people and caused much damage to vehicles and property. The police knew about this and did nothing to prevent it. (cultural privilege).

There were about 60 gang rapes carried out on girls in the southwest of Sydney and some Lebs were convicted. The ordeals of the girls was horrific. During the trials the victims were hissed and spat at by friends and family, some female, of the accused when going to and from the court during adjurnments. There was constant interjections from the gallery with one loud remark "Whats wrong with f#####g a whore?"

Continued.

Continued,
Teachers have refused to go to certain schools because of the behaviour of the male Leb students. Some Lebs think it beneath them to be served by a female shop assistant, or be treated by a nurse. Old ladies have been harrased and intimidated to sell their house that the Lebs wanted. Complaints made about Christmas scenes at shopping malls and Santa stopped from visiting pre-schools.
Demands made to councils for special times for muslim women only use of swimming pools. Some have even tried to enforce, by intimidation, the exclusive use of certain parts of beaches and picnic areas.

You can see why the Lebs have a very bad reputation.

Maybe the anti-social thing is because we got the main influx of them during the civil war in Lebanon and maybe most came from a certain area there. Or maybe that the Lebs are the most numberous of the muslim population here and they have to continuely to show others and themselves they are top dog. Who Knows?

“Maybe the anti-social thing is because we got the main influx of them during the civil war in Lebanon and maybe most came from a certain area there. Or maybe that the Lebs are the most numerous of the muslim population here and they have to continually to show others and themselves they are top dog. Who Knows?”

I can’t dispute any of it Banjo and I have encountered the same where I am, or my daughter has regularly. She said there is one house with 2nd or 3rd generation (maybe more no one has asked them) Lebs and still when she walks past they yell out “slut” etc. She’s pretty used to it now since she walks past a lot.

If she was a sensitive wee thing I’d probably be having a mental and I’m kind of surprised no one else has made a complaint. Weirdly some of them lived in another house that burnt down a few weeks ago now.

For all I know I’m in the middle of some localised race war and haven’t noticed.

As for my girl, I just keep reminding her of the other Lebs we've known.

I guess an Australian is not an Australian when they have done the bare minimum required to get citizenship and then nip off back to where they came from, treating Australian citizenship like an insurance policy. They have no affinity with Australia and contribute nothing to it, but when they get in trouble, boy, watch them scream and wave their passport around. "I'm Australian, help me!"

Don't get me wrong, native-born Aussies are capable of being useless as well. But citizenship is their birthright, they didn't seek it out as their get-out-of-jail-free card. I can think of "Australian" drug runners (Vietnamese), "Australian" terrorists (Lebanese), and "Australian" spies (Chinese) as recent examples of people who spat all over the welcome we gave them by breaking laws and seeing their passport as nothing more than a ticket out of the mess they'd created. If you come here, contribute and be a part of this country. Otherwise, don't bother applying for citizenship because you shouldn't get it and we shouldn't be obliged to bail you out for your bad behaviour.

Leigh wrote: "Dual citizenship and multiculturalism is gradually creating a land of disparate tribes, where tribes or groups will have nothing in common and nothing to do with each other. A country simply cannot hold together like that."

Australia has become the disunified "cluster of tribes" that Geoffrey Blainey warned about. The shared national identity and culture that Australians once enjoyed has been irrevocably shattered by mass immigration and multiculturalism.

By trashing the old policy of assimilation, Australia essentially signalled that it no longer believed that it had any national identity or culture of its own worth preserving. This shift away from assimilation toward multiculturalism coincided with the beginning of "The Flood", the massive, ongoing wave of non-Western immigration that began in the 1970s. With the policy of assimilation out of the way, concerns about Australia's ability to absord, socially and culturally, this huge, unremitting influx were not longer considered relevant. Rather than threatening the survival of our shared culture and identity, and, indeed, the very survival of Australia as coherent and cohesive whole, this foreign influx was celebrated as providing more "diversity". "Diversity" thus became the highest good, to be pursued as an end in itself, even if it meant destroying the bonds of Australian nationhood.

The result is that, these days, Australia has effectively ceased to be anything approximating a nation in the traditional sense, and could now be described as little more than a global suburb, a home away from home for a range of diasporic communities whose identities are rooted not in Australia but in other countries.

[Continued from above...]

Admittedly, Australia was always bound to face some kind of identity crisis in the wake of the decline of the British Empire. Up until the mid 20th Century, Australia viewed itself as essentially a British society transplanted in the South Pacific. The challenge for Australia would have been to develop a post-British identity, one that still recognised our British heritage, but also recognised our place in the world and the uniquely Australian features of our society.

Multiculturalism essentially destroyed any chance of a new, organic, solid Australian identity forming. We went from being a settler colony of Britain, to developing a national consciousness of our own, and then back to being a settler colony again, only this time a colony of every nation on earth. It can thus be said that multiculturalism effectively destroyed the Australian nation in its infant stage.

“Multiculturalism essentially destroyed any chance of a new, organic, solid Australian identity forming. We went from being a settler colony of Britain, to developing a national consciousness of our own, and then back to being a settler colony again, only this time a colony of every nation on earth. It can thus be said that multiculturalism effectively destroyed the Australian nation in its infant stage.”

I have been asking for awhile, I even claimed a few times that Aussie didn’t appear to have a firm identity and here you are Efranke finally explaining it. This makes sense to me.

Did you read all that Banjo?

Is there a fix or this has to take time for Oz to find its feet?

Maybe taking away the threat of being ejected after citizenship has been granted could help?

Nice convenient peg, multiculturalism.

>>Multiculturalism essentially destroyed any chance of a new, organic, solid Australian identity forming<<

Methinks that statement is itself formed out of "organic solid".

It's like saying that the weather has destroyed any chance of a new, organic, solid train timetable forming.

Although to be fair, the NSW government has used that very phrase.

Efranke
"multiculturalism effectively destroyed the Australian nation in its infant stage"
Multiculturalism destroyed the dream for a british nation in Australia.
Modern Australia is a multicultural, multinational nation and soon or later we will create our own national ID, as happened with USA.
In Australia Anglo Saxons was extremely nationalists before 1955, you know the test for Australian citizenship, not in English language, not in migrant's language but in a language they did not know to fail the citizenship test. NEVER AND NOWHERE people had this kind of tests! NONE migrant became australian citizen from 1900 to 1954!
The mass migration changed the synthesis of australian population and destroyed the dream for a british nation in Australia.
Soon or later the last dreamers for a british nation in south will die, taking with them remaining parts of the white Australia.
We, the new Australians, know that the old bad days passed for ever, and a better future is created for all australians without any kind of discrimination and victimization.
Eviva the multinational, multicultural Australia!
The Pied Pipe thank you my good friend, thank you!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide