Except that Lebanon and good old secular Turkey, just for starters, have free, fair, democratic elections and vigorous debates about the role of religion in politics and society. Doesn't look like Islam's been too successful in quashing free speech there.

Lebanon is a particularly ironic case because the US refused to recognise its properly-elected Hezbollah government - quite a defence of democracy, that.

Giving any religion political primacy will eliminate free speech. Christianity has a record no better than Islam, but, luckily, the secular Enlightenment beat it down to the quaint bundle of rituals and empty reassurances from men in skirts that we enjoy today. Hopefully something similar will happen in the Islamic world, and if does, it will be because of the example set by Western democracies, not through violence and attempts to delegitimise all non-white non-Christians living in Western nations.

The worst part is not that you believe democracy and free speech are incompatible with Islam, but that you actively WANT it to be, or your whole argument is undermined and you're back to crude expressions of the boorish racism and parochial fear that motivates these threads.

“If you want to find opinions of those that embrace forced marriages or FGM, I don't know where you would find them.”

Oh Banjo, they don’t all embrace forced marriages or FGM. This is like when we westerners are all accused of being of low morals and godless dirty habits.

Do you know I did the stupidest thing... My daughter was young and in a Saudi hospital and I was staying with her. It was a private room and one morning I got up and no toilet paper so I skip right out the door in my rather short summer nightie to reception down the hall to ask for some. It wasn’t until I turned around holding a roll that I realized there was seating for about 7 along the wall and every seat filled with a Saudi Arabian male.

I did not help the women of the west that morning in Riyadh. I’m walking away trying to pull my nightie down at the back with knees bent, leaning back. Hopefully they thought I was a spastic or something.

Dear Leigh,

Thank You for this thread. It's been an
interesting one and I've read all of the
posts with great relish. You've certainly
had a wide variety of opinions expressed.

Professor Zubrzycki a few decades ago summed
up the question, "Do we really want a multi-culture?"
in an article for, 'The Age,' newspaper in Melbourne.

The Professor said, "I believe that our goals should be to create
a society in which people of non-Anglo Australian origin
are given the opportunity, as individuals or groups, to
choose to preserve and develop their culture so that
these can become living elements in the diverse culture
of the total society, while at the same time they enjoy
equal access to the rights and opportunities that society
provides, and accept responsibilities towards it."

That makes sense.

However, George Mikes, Boomerang (1968)
Andre Deutsch, London writes:

"Australians used to find these alien ghettoes worrying,
but they are slowly beginning to understand that
assimilation is not the problem they supposed it to be.
Assimilation...is an ugly word and ... a conceited
notion. 'Assimilation' simply means 'becoming similar.'
If you are to be
assimilated to me the idea is that I am the ideal ...
If you manage to become as I am, you are right; if you are
different, there must be something wrong with you...

To fit in, to become...part of a harmonious whole is one thing.
To lose the colour of your personality, to become just
another sheep in the flock, just a cog in the machine
(is another)..."

.

THE REVELATION OF HIDDEN IDENTITY

.

What does hidden identity reveal? That you have something to hide? Or is it simply a means of revealing your identity?

.

MASKS ON BUSES - OPTION OR OBLIGATION ?

.

It's amazing what swine flu can do for you. But when is a mask not a mask? What nationality is a virus born in Parramatta ? Which god created it ? Is it subjected to the Queen and a citizenized (civilised) Australian?

That's food for thought. Something immaterial for the mind to chew on.

.

Protagoras
"When in Rome, do as the Romans do!",
No Protagoras I will do what I thing is right to do BUT I have problem with the " mask" because It limits my abilities to comunicate with the persons under the mask, as more than 60% of our comunication is with body language. This problem is not ONLY our problem but for the persons with the "mask" too. I feel sory for the muslim Girls with the "mask" as they lose many opportunities of cause the mask. And they lose many opportunities not of cause their raligious but of cause their "mask". I know many Muslim girl without "mask" and they do excelent job and they have plenty opportunities.
The mask not only limit the comunicasion but create negative feelings against the persons with "mask" as we are not sure if under the mask is a girl or a criminal.
Personaly I am not a religious person and I do not care at all for any religious, I think the "mask" damage mainly the Muslim girls and soonest they stop to use it, the soonest they will enjoy the benefits from not wearing the mask.
About the theory that we (men) should not see women faces IT IS A SHAME FOR OUR CIVILIZATION. I FULY SUPPORT WOMEN RIGHTS AND I FEEL SHAME THAT SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE WOMEN'S INTEGRITY DEPEND ON ITS ABILITY TO COVER HER FACE!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

“SUPPORT WOMEN RIGHTS AND I FEEL SHAME THAT SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE WOMEN'S INTEGRITY DEPEND ON ITS ABILITY TO COVER HER FACE!”

Hello my friend, the last Muslim women I talked to had a different opinion – they felt by making all women look the same in public their rights were more equal among them. Young/old/pretty/ugly/fat/thin – hard to tell. My problem with it was the heat, the whole outfit made no sense to me in a hot country.

It is probably my fond memories of being in Saudi and associating the dress with that time but I am unable to bring myself to be bothered by a woman that chooses to cover her face.

I don’t like looking at people (especially females) with multiple piercings on their face or tattoos on their face. I understand my discomfort must remain unvoiced as it is their body and their choice and I hope the more strict Muslims understand why I don’t cover myself.