david f,

Your disproof of my assertion that "Deliberate fiction writing a la Barbara Cartland is a comparatively modern invention" only succeeds in illustrating my point.

The four "masterpiece novels" from China were all written in the period from the 14th to 18th centuries and are thus "comparatively modern" in the sense that I used the term. Even so, they seem to deal mainly with historical events and political, philosophical or ethical issues and are therefore not really fiction.

Plato's "Republic" was, like his other dialogues, an exercise in philosophy mainly, with some psychology and politics being discussed. It was in no way a work of fiction.

Cicero, who studied philosophy in Greece, wrote a number of dialogues including "De Republica", of which only about a third is extant, to express his views on political theory. Although some utopian ideas may be propounded in philosophical treatises that does not make them works of fiction in the modern, or even medieval, sense.

The writers of the New Testament, if they were Essenes, no doubt were influenced by Pythagoras, and possibly also by Plato and Cicero, and they certainly seemed to envision a coming "utopia". However, the only fiction they wrote was in the form of parables which Jesus himself explained contained a hidden message.

Dear Sympneology:

I repeat part of my post.

The novel as a literary genre germinated in the Wei, Jin and the Northern and Southern Dynasties (220-589 AD).

"The "Masterpiece Novels" were written much later, but the novel originated much earlier."

You also wrote:

"Even so, they seem to deal mainly with historical events and political, philosophical or ethical issues and are therefore not really fiction."

We define fiction differently.

Many novels deal with "historical events and political, philosophical or ethical issues."

"War and Peace" is definitely fiction but deals with real historical events. Camus' novels have as a subtext his philosophy of existentialism. There are many other examples. Utopian literature has a long history. I class it as fiction. Apparently you don't.

Your original statement about fiction ala Barbara Cartland was not written in ancient days may well be true. However, fiction is a much broader category then what Barbara Cartland writes. At least to my way of thinking.

Sympneology

<<I dealt with Dr Forbes' article above. I think Dr Thiering has adequately rebutted all his criticisms.>>

HIS? Maybe we are talking about another Dr Thiering. Are there two?

<<This is the crucial question applying to all ancient documents. Deliberate fiction writing a la Barbara Cartland is a comparatively modern invention>>

And <<The relevance to this debate is that, although the tales of miracles and the supernatural in the New Testament are obviously fiction, the motive of the writers may actually have been to tell the truth, albeit in a way that would not endanger their lives or those of their readers.>> Come on. You cannot have a two way bet. They wrote fiction or they didn't.

So they (whoever) didn't write fiction? Did they tell lies? There is plenty of evidence that people of that era could get into personal agendas. By the way, is The Epic of Gilgamesh fact or fiction? Some date that as early as 2150 BC.

<<4. Did they originate from a weirdo sect?>>
<<That depends upon what you define as "wierdo".>>
If that cannot be answered we have no idea who we are dealing with. Hardly a sound base truth.

Trust me, I am an academic?

Daviy,

<<I dealt with Dr Forbes' article above. I think Dr Thiering has adequately rebutted all his criticisms.>>

<<HIS? Maybe we are talking about another Dr Thiering. Are there two?>>

Do you suffer from a reading problem? The "his" obviously refers to Dr Forbes.

<<Come on. You cannot have a two way bet. They wrote fiction or they didn't.>>

I do not deal in false dichotomies. They wrote fiction, and that fiction is what today is treated as the inerrant, infallible word of God by the people who have appointed themselves as our moral guardians. It is Dr Thiering's thesis that in writing that fiction they were conveying a secret history to be revealed by use of the method of interpretation learned from the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls. So yes, I can have it both ways.

<<4. Did they originate from a weirdo sect?>>
<<That depends upon what you define as "wierdo".>>
<<If that cannot be answered we have no idea who we are dealing with. Hardly a sound base truth.>>

"Who we are dealing with" was answered in relation to questions 1 and 2. It is up to you to decide if they can be described as "wierdo".

What has the Epic of Gilgamesh got to do with a discussion of the Bible?

Sympneology

The 'Epic of Gilgamesh' is often recognized as the first piece of fiction. 2000 BC?

<<Do you suffer from a reading problem?>> No more than you do judging by the way you answer my questions.

Where did the Dead Sea Scrolls come from? They where found in a cave. I suppose that in a very simplistic manner you did answer the question but it says nothing about the origins. Enough. You want to put your faith in Dr Thiering then I will say no more on the subject.

The writers of the New Testament, if they were Essenes, no doubt were influenced by Pythagoras, and possibly also by Plato and Cicero, and they certainly seemed to envision a coming "utopia". However, the only fiction they wrote was in the form of parables which Jesus himself explained contained a hidden message.

….If they were…..no doubt influenced……and possibly also……they certainly seemed……(all in one sentence).

How many guesses do you need to make to come up with your version of the truth?

Daviy,

<<The 'Epic of Gilgamesh' is often recognized as the first piece of fiction. 2000 BC?>>

By whom? Sir Leonard Woolley's excavations at Ur in Mesopotamia (Iraq) found clear evidence of a massive flood occurring about 7,200 years BP where the sea level rose suddenly about 5 metres, remaining high over a 2.3 millennium period before returning to present day levels.

This flood could well have been the source of the legend of Utnapishtim in the Gilgamesh epic, as well as the legend of Manu in the Mahabharata and that of Noah. If later writers add embellishments to a true story but keep the core narrative, is that fiction or history?