Hello Daviy,

Sorry, I haven't replied to your question on women's role
within the early Gnostic churches. Women were certainly involved in the early Christian church before Constantine. Some writings on Medieval Gnostism refer to a tradition of sex equality, but don't support with citations. Although I have been busy, I have been keeping an eye open for something relevant. Good question.

Excuse typos but the genealogies of Jesus are also a noteworthy problem for people who believe the Bible is God's word, inspired by God or who believe the writer's hands were guided by God.

Matthew 1:1 Lists David, Solomon, Rehoboam, Abijah, Asa, Jehoshaphat,
Joram, Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah, Manasseh, Amon, Josiah,
Jeconiah, Shealtiel, Zerubbabel, Abiud, Eliakim, Azor, Zadok, Akim,
Eliud, Eleazar, Matthan, Jacob, Joseph, Jesus.

Luke 3:23 Lists David, Nathan, Mattatha, Menna, Melea, Eliakim, Jonam, Joseph, Judah, Simeon, Levi, Matthat, Jorim, Eliezer, Joshua,
Er, Elmadam, Cosam, Addi, Melki, Neri, Shealtiel, Zerubbabel, Rhesa, Joanan, Joda, Josech, Semein, Mattathias, Maath, Naggai, Esli, Nahum, Amos, Mattathias, Joseph, Jannai, Melki, Levi, Matthat, Heli, Joseph, Jesus

Either God (the alleged inspirer) doesn't know his sons genealogy OR again we have a major problem.

Richie10 - Mary didn't get mentioned in the list ...why? There are 28 names in Matthew Vs 43 in Luke's why?

See how the Catholic Encyclopaedia explains it http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm Amazing!

I typed them all in so people could copy the lists to ask their preachers.

Daviy, Like you I don't really care when Herod the Great actually died - but it begs the question for believers - Why weren't they taught this by their preachers?

TY for posting the links to the "Pesher of Christ" Sympneology, I'm sure many will find those most interesting reading.

Pericles OMG are you delusional? Look up in the sky, it's a bird, it's a plane No it's Superpericles "defending liberty against tyranny"! You are a funny one...lmao

I knew you would waste your time on the number of questions/non-questions... It is what you do best...lol

Op2 wrote:

>>See how the Catholic Encyclopaedia explains it http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm Amazing!<<

I always wondered what people meant when they described an argument as "Jesuitical", now I understand!

What rational person would prefer this mess of convoluted obfuscation to the clear and coherent explanations offered by Dr Barbara Thiering?

Discussion on the pesher technique reminds me of two things.

1. 'Foucault's Pendulum' by Umberto Eco which contains a chapter explaining how easy it was to find a number 'code' in anything to support whatever you want to support.

2. and Richard P Feynman comment that 'Just because some thing was possible does not mean that it is probable.'

<The term pesher technique refers to the interpretive technique presented by Barbara Thiering, which she discusses in her books and scholarly articles. According to her view, in the four Canonical Gospels, Acts and Revelation, historical facts have been encoded into the text in the form of parables and accounts of "miracles" and can be recovered by applying the pesher technique. This view is widely discredited by scholars, however, and Thiering's thesis has received little support. Although Thiering alleges use of the pesher technique in the New Testament, there is no comparable term in New Testament texts and apocrypha corresponding to that of pesher as found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesher

Barbara Thiering may be correct, but we are a long way from showing that her work can be used with any degree of validity.

Even if Pesher is shown to be valid who created the Dead Sea scrolls anyway? They may yet to be the work of some obscure loony sect, or the comic book library of a sub pubic child. Maybe we have the found a 2000 year old version of Batman, Robin and the Joker.

There is a real danger that theories are accepted because of there 'academic' source when if they where the product of a non academic that person would have been called a 'conspiracy theorist' or a 'smack head'.

You know, I do worry about you OP2.

>>Pericles OMG are you delusional? Look up in the sky, it's a bird, it's a plane No it's Superpericles "defending liberty against tyranny"! You are a funny one...lmao I knew you would waste your time on the number of questions/non-questions... It is what you do best...lol<<

An OMG, a lmao and a lol all in a row.

That stuff is all very... 2008, you know.

I am really glad you were able to find the humour in my little postscript. I thought I had hidden it so well, too.

Never mind.

There was however a serious underpinning to my frivolity. If the OP2's of this world - and there are regrettably large numbers of you - are continually allowed to get away unchallenged with their drip-feed religious nagging, liberty is, in a small but real way, under threat.

It may have escaped your notice, OP2, but there are people on this, and other, threads, only too willing to put the boot into any religion that happens to be passing, more often that not from an equally one-eyed stance that has its basis in another religion entirely.

I have spent more than a few hours elsewhere on this forum, trying to straighten out those who would slag off Muslims for believing in the Qur'an in exactly the same manner that you attribute Christians' belief in the Bible.

Religion has started far too many wars in the past, and as we know from bushfires, it only takes a single unfortunately-lit match to set an entire State blazing. Who is to say that your constant needling of Christian fundamentalists won't have the same result?

So in my small way I like to burst as many of the succession of self-important religious bubbles that I come across, as I can.

And you, OP2, with your pointless droning about this confusing date, and that odd contradiction, fall into that sad category.

From the Wikipedia article on the pesher:
>>Although Thiering alleges use of the pesher technique in the New Testament, there is no comparable term in New Testament texts and apocrypha corresponding to that of pesher as found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.<<

Thiering responds:
>>The gospels themselves suggest the method of approach to such stories when Jesus says, in Mark 4: 11, 'for those outside, everything is in parables', but says to his inner circle: 'To you has been given the secret (Greek mysterion) of the Kingdom of God'. Hellenistic literature, especially Jewish Hellenistic literature, has many examples of such a theory of scripture.<<

It seems to me that the Greek term 'mysterion' corresponds quite well with the Hebrew term 'pesher' as they both imply a hidden meaning.

The next bit of the Wikipedia article (not quoted by Daviy) says:
>>Supporting Thiering's view is the fact that the early fathers of the Christian Church, Clement of Alexandria and Origen, his follower in the Catechetical School of Alexandria, both held that the holy scripture (today shortly referred to as The Bible) would have minimum three layers of meaning: The "Skin", known to every Christian ("the babes in Christ"); the "Flesh", the layer for the adept, which are the Christians who studied the subjects of theology, especially Exegesis; and the "Core", exclusively known to the initiates in a strictly apostolic succession.<<

When the word 'scholars' is used, as in "widely discredited by scholars", one must always be aware that most scholars have a baggage of their own preconceived interpretations and theories, which they will not readily concede have been superseded by new data. This is especially true in the field of history and moreso in religious history.

>>Even if Pesher is shown to be valid who created the Dead Sea scrolls anyway? They may yet to be the work of some obscure loony sect, or the comic book library of a sub pubic child. Maybe we have the found a 2000 year old version of Batman, Robin and the Joker.<<

Now you're being just silly.