Sympneology, I did quite enjoy reading the "Pesher" website.

However, the greatest mind in the Universe has created a three tiered system 1. For you ordinary folk, 2. For the more enlightened and 3. for people like me (the glitterati of religion) ...well that would make sense, but is it right?(some say two tiered)

I can trace my "apostolic succession" through Thomas...I definitely would put my hand into the wound if Jesus appeared to me! John 20:27 It's a gene succession...lol

The Catholics view of Apostolic Succession - Are they saying IF you become a Bishop it is automatically held true?..http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01641a.htm

Once you start down Pesher road you create elitism. We know elitism works. We all want to be in the inner circle, whether it's at the footy club, or in religions.

Take one look at religions and you can tell that they still haven't worked out the inner secret. Pssst "honesty" is the inner secret!

Pesher follows the tried and true methods of the elitist model.

1. Tell people there are secrets that can be proven to be true

2. Tell them that there are 3 levels Plebs, Slightly better than plebs, and super-plebs.

3. Tell people that to advance from pleb to level 2 you need greater scholarship. (few qualify)

4. Due to their lack of "apostolic succession" they'll never be a super-pleb

5. Turn unproven assumptions from the old writings into "known facts" that only super-plebs can determine.

Voila ...You have a religious order/religion!

I know many groups have multi-levels of secretiveness and I know some religions play the multi-level game.

Put this elitism in the hands of most people and they will believe they are at the top.

Put this elitism into the hands of believers and they will automatically be at the top.

Afterall they are "born again" already in Christ so they achieved God-dom already!

To achieve "Super-Pleb" status change the questionable qualifying standard from "apostolic line" to "born again" even though this is against the rules and Voila our work is done.

Questioning Dr Thiering's views http://www.anchist.mq.edu.au/251/Thierful.htm

Op2,

Being given an interpretation of the New Testament which is free of miracles and the supernatural does not make me an elitist, except in the sense that I feel intellectually superior to those whose grasp of reality is so tenuous that they still believe all that magic.

>>Turn unproven assumptions from the old writings into "known facts" that only super-plebs can determine. Voila ...You have a religious order/religion!<<

Jesus' advice in Mark 4:11 is no different from any organisation with a large membership, there will always be an "inner circle" or "executive council" or whatever to whom will be known some matters that they do not share with the general membership. This is not elitism, it is simply an organizational necessity. Conversations in Cabinet or Boardroom must remain confidential, at least for a time.

In the case of the early church such confidentiality was a matter of life and death. With enemies like the Pharisees and the Herods and Rome it would have been unwise to broadcast the fact that Jesus had survived his execution. Nevertheless, it was still important to find a way to tell his followers his message, and the pesher offered a way to do it.

As to the fulminations of Dr Forbes, his arguments, and Dr Thiering's answers to them are reported in Leonie Star's book, "The Dead Sea Scrolls - The Riddle Debated" (ABC Books, 1991).

Dear Sympneology,
I was wondering how you edit and rewrite Mark chapter 16 verses 15 through to 19 to fit your beliefs

Sympneology,

I wasn't calling you elitist in any way, shape or form, I apologise if you got that impression.

My previous post, was a tongue in cheek way of showing, how simple it is to set humans on the road to believing that they are "special", and, using this method, to develop intrigue and longing to join the “in the know” club.

The elitist model is a very clever method of shutting down the brain of many people by boosting their egos.

That is why "apostolic succession" is such a weak concept. I would argue it is just a complicated way of saying "promoted" or "appointed"!

It sounds important, and to most people, I would think they would relate it to “Royal Succession”, or “birth rite”, except Priests, Bishops and Popes don’t usually have progeny.

I have problems with Dr Thiering's work. The fact that her theories have had little support from historians ,peers, or anyone for that matter is of concern.

One could say that the silence is deafening!

I would expect Christian organisations to be scathing, as the links show below, but surely some of the many unbiased historians, would have stepped up to the plate in her defence, if any, of what she concludes was defendable.

It doesn’t mean she is wrong, on all counts, but does it bring her methodology and conclusions into question?

I also wonder about people who sell books. Isn't the best form of advertising (within reason, controversy. Does Dr Thiering call herself a Christian?

I guess her books have been good little money spinners and good luck to her for that.

About Dr Thiering

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Thiering

Pro Dr Thiering

http://thiering.net/ (Is Webmaster ReichardtT a Thiering?)

Critics of Dr Thiering

http://www.christian-apologetics.org/html/thiering.htm

http://www.anchist.mq.edu.au/251/Thierful.htm

One man's summary of the book

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_thiering__riddle.htm

I doubt I'll be buying a book!

Richie 10,

Just to let you in on the secret, here is Dr Thiering's take on it:

8:00 am

Mark 15:15 Pilate turned to all three Herods who had combined into a pressure group influential with Rome. He gave Theudas into the care of Annas as his deputy abbot. Theudas performed self-flagellation as a sufficient punishment. Jesus was given his first cursing before being crucified as a Magian.

Mark 15:16 Agrippa was led by his servant Merari to the north base at 8:00 am. Jesus on the south base was to be subjected to mocking by Merari.

Mark 15:17 Directed by Agrippa, Merari derided the ambitions of the Davids to be king instead of the Herods, putting on Jesus the purple cassock worn by bishops in the outside world, and the garland worn by Roman emperors, with the letter Qof used by the Sadducee priest-kings.

Mark 15:18 Merari mockingly hailed Jesus, addressing him as a deacon only.

Mark 15:19 Merari used his 2 cubit measuring rod on behalf of Agrippa to lift the garland off Jesus' head. Then he spat on him and knelt beside him as if pretending to give him the tribute due to the emperor- money that ought to go to Agrippa in his financial need.

It is easy to make up a story, and devise a system that fits the facts. That is what writers of period romances do all the time. Couple this with the division into ranks, such as the Masons, and you have Pesher.

Dr Thiering does a Barbara Cartland and we are all supposed to bow down to her superior intellect? In a previous book 'Jesus the man' she made such leaps of credibility that using her methods it would be possible to 'prove' anything.

And there is still the problem of where the Dead Sea Scrolls come from. What was their heritage? Where is the anchor that places them into the society of the time? Did they originate from a weirdo sect? Do they tell the truth or are they fiction?

None of these questions can be answered. Dr Thiering may be proved to be correct, but for now it is a just hypothesis.

Some may find it all very interesting but I cannot see the relevance to this debate until some factuality can be added.